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Hamfast
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.04.05 14:47:00 -
[121]
Objects and code...
Objects in Code always work the same... otherwise we have bugs.
An NPC object generates another object (wreck), the ownership of that object is flagged as owned by the PC that helped in its creation...
A PC Object that generates an object (wreck), the ownership of that object is flagged for the player...
If you run a mission and get popped by the NPC's there, when you return, you own the wreck... if the only way to survive getting back is to abandon the mission, your wreck will still be in the area because it's owned by you...
To make the change the OP wants, a PC generated object (wreck) would be flagged as owned by the shooter, PC or NPC (remember, the object has to act the same) and so a ship lost on a mission would be flagged as owned by the NPC and thus destroyed if the mission is abandoned or completed.
This same functionality is the reason that Miners can't take their ore back from a thief without being flagged, the object (jet-can) the thief generated (PC Generated object, owner is the PC) as is anything in it... even the miner's ore... Object must act the same, every time...
This issue has nothing to do with the privateers, it's just the way it works and to change it would change the game's dynamics in a myriad of ways.
I think a better answer would be to flag any thief to anybodyàand forget the ownership thing.... but the privateers may not like being flagged for everyone when they loot their victims.
Noob in training...
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.04.05 14:48:00 -
[122]
Originally by: GimmeeThat
They are flagged to the loot owner. what's the problem?
Read the thread and find out?
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.04.05 14:53:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Yeah, it couldn't be anything like relying on teamwork and a network of friends to help avoid what you're crying about. In a massively multiplayer game? That would just be crazy!
Maybe you've just been lucky? Ever think of that? You think you are likely to change your mind if/when it happens to you?
Originally by: Blue Pixie
No bubbles, no sec status drop, readily available stations, high traffic, and as you alluded to earlier, the option to cherry pick one-man industrial corps (or outright n00bs) to grief for a week.
Yeah, what's so funny about suggesting that's riskier than the free-for-all gank-o-rama better known as low-sec and no-sec?
Still, I ask you, what is the ultimate risk here. The risk is to lose your ship, and that is the same in Empire wars and in 0.0 wars. The actual likelyhood of losing your ship in either is not up for debate, but rather what the risk is. It is easy for me to make arguments that low sec and 0.0 have less risk due to the fact that you can make a lot more isk there, hence you can afford to lose more ships, hence all the drawbacks are suddenly made up for. However, you never ever run the risk of losing the spoils of a won battle and not have the slightest chance to prevent it.
Originally by: Blue Pixie
I'm mean c'mon... you're absolutely, 100% guaranteed to have your loot stolen in high-sec. There's no possible way to circumvent that! Oh the humanity!
No you won't lose your loot every time. You will lose enough for it to hurt your pocket book if that is your primary mode of income. Some will lose more than others, and some will never lose anything at all. All of this is also totally missing the point of this discussion, which is, why is loot thieving a risk free profession?
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
GimmeeThat
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Posted - 2007.04.05 14:54:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: GimmeeThat
They are flagged to the loot owner. what's the problem?
Read the thread and find out?
/Ki
I've read your circular arguments in the past. You will argue until you hear what you want to hear and ignore logic. The simple fact of the matter is this is the game dynamic.
a. live with it
b. move to 0.0.
c. cry more and shoot yourself in the foot? |
Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.04.05 14:55:00 -
[125]
Originally by: GimmeeThat
I've read your circular arguments in the past. You will argue until you hear what you want to hear and ignore logic. The simple fact of the matter is this is the game dynamic.
a. live with it
b. move to 0.0.
c. cry more and shoot yourself in the foot?
Translation: I don't have any real arguments so I will just troll.
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
GimmeeThat
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Posted - 2007.04.05 14:58:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: GimmeeThat
I've read your circular arguments in the past. You will argue until you hear what you want to hear and ignore logic. The simple fact of the matter is this is the game dynamic.
a. live with it
b. move to 0.0.
c. cry more and shoot yourself in the foot?
Translation: I don't have any real arguments so I will just troll.
/Ki
I don't need to argue. I'm not the one demanding the game be recoded to suite my play style. I'm just fine with the way things are. |
Exlegion
New Light
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:04:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Roue That's like saying in a wrestling match for the world championship Bob knocks out Joe. Then some guy in the stands runs onto the ring takes the belt of Joe's unconcious body and if BoB attacks this dude for the belt he just won. The ref will shoot him in the head. ANd Joe who is out cold though has 15 minutes to wake up and beat up the guy who is in his car driving home.
Don't know if this has already been said (haven't read all 5 pages), but it is NOT a tournament belt you have just knocked off the victim. It is not a trophy. It's loot, plain and simple. If you think it's some kind of prize you have just "won" then I think you're playing the wrong game. The victim dropped mods that still happen to be in HIS wreck. Perhaps you're thinking of EVE as some kind of championship tournament game, which IMHO it is not. It's why I think your analogy doesn't hold water.
'Hope this helped a bit.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru |
Leandro Salazar
Bravehearts Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:12:00 -
[128]
The point of the discussion is not really loot thieving being risk free, but some rather hypocritical privateers being ****ed that people give them some of their own medcine.
Besides loot thieving is NOT risk free. You repeating that it is doesn't make it true. Sure the risk is low, but there are enough other profession for which that is true as well. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
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DiuxDium
Loot
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:21:00 -
[129]
Edited by: DiuxDium on 05/04/2007 15:19:52 ^^^^^ There are caked tears in your eyes. Do the big bad privateers blow you up too often.
This thread is a cesspool of horrible metaphors, and real life analogies.
Eve isn't real life kids, get over comparing real life to it.
The end result is, eve is supposed to be unforgiving, where the victory gains the spoils.
As it stands now, noob alts in velators are getting the loot with no risk involved.
Risk VS Reward as they say.
Quote: Also, he didnt even have a Scrambler, so the POS would have gotten away anyway. |
Mack Deluxe
PsyCorp Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:34:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Ki An However, you never ever run the risk of losing the spoils of a won battle and not have the slightest chance to prevent it.
A scout in a frigate jumps through your gatecamp. You kill it as soon as it uncloaks. A second afterwards 10 times your number jump through in battleships. Do they wait while you slow boat to their friend's loot and let you leave?
Hmm... I guess there is some risk. Different risks for sure, but still risks.
Empire wars are lame, griefateers are lame personified.
Btw, how many people do you think have decided to make an alt expressly for this purpose as a result of this thread?
I've done... Questionable things. |
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Leandro Salazar
Bravehearts Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:42:00 -
[131]
Oh I have a n00bcorp alt myself so privateers don't really bother me much directly. In fact in their early days where their goal was to make highsec life harsh on the rich bigass alliances, I actually cheered for them.
But now that they DoW pretty much everyone and have degenerated into a haven for the gank-scum of EVE I only detest them anymore. And the hypocrisy displayed in this thread only compounds my disdain. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:42:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Mack Deluxe
Originally by: Ki An However, you never ever run the risk of losing the spoils of a won battle and not have the slightest chance to prevent it.
A scout in a frigate jumps through your gatecamp. You kill it as soon as it uncloaks. A second afterwards 10 times your number jump through in battleships. Do they wait while you slow boat to their friend's loot and let you leave?
Hmm... I guess there is some risk. Different risks for sure, but still risks.
Uhm... what has this got to do with the paragraph you quoted? It stands as fact that after a won battle in 0.0, you get the loot. That is not so in high sec.
Originally by: Mack Deluxe
Empire wars are lame, griefateers are lame personified.
To this I can only quote the old adage "opinions are like *******s. Everyone's got one".
Originally by: Mack Deluxe
Btw, how many people do you think have decided to make an alt expressly for this purpose as a result of this thread?
The more the better imo. The more people do this, the sooner CCP will realise that it is a problem.
That out of the way, I'd propose we look at dual wreck-flagging from another perspective; one of pros and cons.
Pros - Loot thieving in high sec is no longer risk free. - The victor of a battle gets his rightful spoils of war. - The number of alts in velators drop, resulting in less lag (I had to get lag in here somehow )
Cons - I really can't think of any, but as so many people are so vehemently opposed to this idea, I'm sure there has to be some big ones I have overlooked.
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:46:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Ki An Maybe you've just been lucky? Ever think of that? You think you are likely to change your mind if/when it happens to you?
Maybe I've just been lucky. Or maybe I just don't care? Ever think of that?
Originally by: Ki An Still, I ask you, what is the ultimate risk here. The risk is to lose your ship, and that is the same in Empire wars and in 0.0 wars. The actual likelyhood of losing your ship in either is not up for debate, but rather what the risk is. It is easy for me to make arguments that low sec and 0.0 have less risk due to the fact that you can make a lot more isk there, hence you can afford to lose more ships, hence all the drawbacks are suddenly made up for. However, you never ever run the risk of losing the spoils of a won battle and not have the slightest chance to prevent it.
Hey, if you wanna play that game, you may as well argue an indy is as dangerous as a HAC, since they both have high slots.
Be that as it may, if high-sec's rule set gets you this bent out of shape... why go there? If the risks are more satisfactory in low-sec/no-sec... then what's the problem? Who's forcing you to play in Empire space?
Originally by: Ki An No you won't lose your loot every time. You will lose enough for it to hurt your pocket book if that is your primary mode of income. Some will lose more than others, and some will never lose anything at all. All of this is also totally missing the point of this discussion, which is, why is loot thieving a risk free profession?
/Ki
First of all, it's not risk free. It might not be quite as risky as you'd like it to be. Too bad.
Secondly, if you're relying on looting PC targets as your primary source of income, then perhaps you should put a little more effort into finding ways to accomplish that more effectively... or start looking another line of work?
Honestly, I don't know what to tell you. I'd love to find officer spawns every time I hit a belt, but unfortunately it seldom works out that way.
You've got options. There's plenty of other ways to earn a profit while engaging in PvP. However, you seem hell-bent on turning Empire into your own personal 0.0 space. I just don't see that happening... nor would I support it.
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Leandro Salazar
Bravehearts Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:48:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Ki An
To this I can only quote the old adage "opinions are like *******s. Everyone's got one".
Quite right. Maybe you should also start to realize that it is only your opinion that there is a problem here, and nothing else.
In my opinion for example, there is no problem at all. --------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:59:00 -
[135]
To avoid getting drawn into an even longer, and eventually pointless, flamewar, I just thought I'd quote myself and ask you to provide some cons here.
I r debetin constructly
Originally by: Ki An That out of the way, I'd propose we look at dual wreck-flagging from another perspective; one of pros and cons.
Pros - Loot thieving in high sec is no longer risk free. - The victor of a battle gets his rightful spoils of war. - The number of alts in velators drop, resulting in less lag (I had to get lag in here somehow )
Cons - I really can't think of any, but as so many people are so vehemently opposed to this idea, I'm sure there has to be some big ones I have overlooked.
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Thread Winner
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:59:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Mack Deluxe
Originally by: Ki An However, you never ever run the risk of losing the spoils of a won battle and not have the slightest chance to prevent it.
A scout in a frigate jumps through your gatecamp. You kill it as soon as it uncloaks. A second afterwards 10 times your number jump through in battleships. Do they wait while you slow boat to their friend's loot and let you leave?
Hmm... I guess there is some risk. Different risks for sure, but still risks.
Empire wars are lame, griefateers are lame personified.
Btw, how many people do you think have decided to make an alt expressly for this purpose as a result of this thread?
Is curse alliance made up of carebears? my god
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GimmeeThat
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:03:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Ki An
It stands as fact that after a won battle in 0.0, you get the loot. That is not so in high sec.
So move to 0.0 and do your thing... oh wait... you guys are a bunch of b*#&@s.. nm..
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:04:00 -
[138]
Originally by: GimmeeThat
Originally by: Ki An
It stands as fact that after a won battle in 0.0, you get the loot. That is not so in high sec.
So move to 0.0 and do your thing... oh wait... you guys are a bunch of b*#&@s.. nm..
I'll give you three coppers if you get back under the bridge and don't eat me.
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Mhaerdirne Solveig
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:10:00 -
[139]
so long as I can salvage anything I'll not complain.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:10:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Ki An
I'll give you three coppers if you get back under the bridge and don't eat me.
/Ki
Honestly though, to me the system makes perfect sense.
If a NPC is killed, the wreck belongs to the killer. If a PC is killed, the wreck belongs to the victim.
It doesn't matter if the death occours in 0.0 warfare, in a mission in High Sec, in a belt in LowSec, or at a gate camp. It is always the same. RP explanation is fairly simple: the NPC is DEAD as they don't clone jump. The PC isn't, hence maintains ownership of the items.
I would be willing to bet that it was done to keep griefing lower due to something one of the devs could envision happening, much like I could dream up reasons. Personally I don't think it should change even if I lost stuff to thieves.
And no, my thoughts aren't because I don't like the Privateers or Empire warfare. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2
PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base |
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Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:16:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Ki An To avoid getting drawn into an even longer, and eventually pointless, flamewar, I just thought I'd quote myself and ask you to provide some cons here.
I r debetin constructly
Originally by: Ki An That out of the way, I'd propose we look at dual wreck-flagging from another perspective; one of pros and cons.
Pros - Loot thieving in high sec is no longer risk free. - The victor of a battle gets his rightful spoils of war. - The number of alts in velators drop, resulting in less lag (I had to get lag in here somehow )
Cons - I really can't think of any, but as so many people are so vehemently opposed to this idea, I'm sure there has to be some big ones I have overlooked.
/Ki
And I counter-propose you either:
a) ask a friend in a non-war dec'd corp to collect your loot for you, or... b) go to low-sec/no-sec where you can pretty much shoot anybody at anytime for any reason you want.
Pros - Devs don't have to re-code a damned thing. - You might actually enjoy a little teamwork in an MMO. - Low-sec could get a bit of a population boost.
Cons - I really can't think of any.
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:18:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Blue Pixie And I counter-propose you either:
a) ask a friend in a non-war dec'd corp to collect your loot for you, or... b) go to low-sec/no-sec where you can pretty much shoot anybody at anytime for any reason you want.
Pros - Devs don't have to re-code a damned thing. - You might actually enjoy a little teamwork in an MMO. - Low-sec could get a bit of a population boost.
Cons - I really can't think of any.
Nice try, but try mine instead.
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Gamesguy
Amarr E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:31:00 -
[143]
Wow so much ignorance and blind hatred here, did the privateers gank your afk hauler or something?
My alliance has been wardecced by the privs like 5 times already, we dont give a **** about them. There is a pathetically easy to move stuff around in empire called a noobcorp alt, and you can always fit like 8 stabs on your BS and they cant touch you.
Empire war loot thieving is stupid and a broken game mechanic. Whenever we had a large scale engagement with fix down in agil or badi, and btw no one freaking engages in some random system no one's ever heard of, again because of empire war mechanics, loot thieves would steal most of the loot and the winning party can do nothing about it.
What risk is there to the thief? The loser lost so they cant undock and not get killed by the winner, and why would you need to retain ownership of the wreck when you're at war?! Its not like to need flagging to kill the guy that just killed you.
Its a broken game mechanic, and all the posts about "goto lowsec/0.0 you noob" is stupid, since many 0.0 alliances have empire wars every now and then.
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Blue Pixie
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:31:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Ki An Nice try, but try mine instead.
/Ki
Why should I? Just because a few crybabies are making a fuss, it doesn't mean the system is broke.
Empire is what it is. If you like it, great. If you don't, adapt or get out. No one is forcing you to play there.
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Leandro Salazar
Bravehearts Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:32:00 -
[145]
Cons:
- If it ain't broke don't fix it - If someone killed is accompanied by a friend not in his corp, and said friend saves the loot, he then is fair game to the killer too? I don't think so... - I am sure most victims will be happy if their loot goes to a random vulture rather than the lazy ganktard that killed him. And if you are not lazy, use a damn looting ship yourself. Can't be that hard.
--------- There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Kestrel There is no 'e' in Caldari
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JourneymanDave
devastation mining inc
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:39:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Roue
The defense of this feature, which has no realistic application in game at all. Is nothing but a bias against another form of gameplay.
That's a totally unsupported assertion. This empire ganking form of gameplay is new, and came into existence long after the game mechanics were firmly entrenched.
On the contrary, the facts seem to be tht you're asking for the established game mechanics to change to better suit your preferred style of gameplay. Try to keep this factual.
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:46:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Cons:
- If it ain't broke don't fix it - It is broken imo, so I want it fixed - If someone killed is accompanied by a friend not in his corp, and said friend saves the loot, he then is fair game to the killer too? I don't think so... Why not? It's the spoils of war. - I am sure most victims will be happy if their loot goes to a random vulture rather than the lazy ganktard that killed him. And if you are not lazy, use a damn looting ship yourself. Can't be that hard. He died, so he gets no say in it.
My answers in bold.
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
JourneymanDave
devastation mining inc
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:48:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Thread Winner
...or are you logically blind since you like most people here have a vendetta against the privateers?
I won't speak for others, but my disagreement is only with those that can't be intellectually honest; Privateers or other.
Originally by: Thread Winner
Are the privateers that bad?
Privateers aren't inherently bad, no. I'm all for being able to gank in empire if you're willing to foot the rather large bills for that privelege. Knock yourself out with the gankage, just take the consequences under consideration.
Originally by: Thread Winner
The tutorial explicitly told you that you would not be safe unless you were docked.
Precisely: Your ship or your winnings from combat. Appreciate the assist on that point.
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Ki An
Gallente The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:48:00 -
[149]
Originally by: JourneymanDave
Originally by: Roue
The defense of this feature, which has no realistic application in game at all. Is nothing but a bias against another form of gameplay.
That's a totally unsupported assertion. This empire ganking form of gameplay is new, and came into existence long after the game mechanics were firmly entrenched.
On the contrary, the facts seem to be tht you're asking for the established game mechanics to change to better suit your preferred style of gameplay. Try to keep this factual.
Not really unsupported, as we can see from the hatred in this thread.
Empire wars are nothing new. PRVTR has just taken it to a new level.
/Ki
Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
JourneymanDave
devastation mining inc
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:55:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Ki An
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Cons:
- If it ain't broke don't fix it - It is broken imo, so I want it fixed - If someone killed is accompanied by a friend not in his corp, and said friend saves the loot, he then is fair game to the killer too? I don't think so... Why not? It's the spoils of war. - I am sure most victims will be happy if their loot goes to a random vulture rather than the lazy ganktard that killed him. And if you are not lazy, use a damn looting ship yourself. Can't be that hard. He died, so he gets no say in it.
My answers in bold.
/Ki
And mine...
Not broken, been that way for a long time. No one had an issue until high-sec wardec farming came into vogue. I haven't looked, but I'd bet no one can link a single pre-Privateers whine about this issue. Anyone?
Spoils of War or not, they're merely liberated assets in space at that point in time. I think that everyone understands that high-powered combat ships are not optimal for scooping loot in high-traffic areas. Fly smarter.
Agreed that the victim pilot gets no say on who scoops his loot, he should have flown smarter too. However, this is not particularly relevant to the argument of whether or not the killing pilot gets a say either. Those are two disconnected issues.
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