Originally by: MotoTsume

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Edited by: MotoTsume on 04/04/2007 23:47:50
Actually the wreck is flagged, but to the person you shot , the owner of the ship and that is how it should be.
it isnt your loot the moocher is stealing but the person who's ship it was.

So that person can kill the moocher

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Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby

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Didn't you guys complain about this last week?

Didn't get much sympathy then either. Simply: The wreck belongs to the PC who's ship was destroyed. Any other method would increase griefing to the original owner.

If you want something along the lines of "dual ownership" so that the killer AND the killed can take the contents, then we demand it for ore lost to can flippers too, plus several hundred other requests to make our stuff "safer" from thieves.

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Originally by: Roue

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Originally by: MotoTsume

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Edited by: MotoTsume on 04/04/2007 23:47:50
Actually the wreck is flagged, but to the person you shot , the owner of the ship and that is how it should be.
it isnt your loot the moocher is stealing but the person who's ship it was.

So that person can kill the moocher

---

Does that really make any sense though?

That's like saying in a wrestling match for the world championship Bob knocks out Joe. Then some guy in the stands runs onto the ring takes the belt of Joe's unconcious body and if BoB attacks this dude for the belt he just won. The ref will shoot him in the head. ANd Joe who is out cold though has 15 minutes to wake up and beat up the guy who is in his car driving home.

You just got blown up, you were engaged in a pvp fight and you lost. Now let's put aside ganking because I for one love fair and honorable 1v1s. I spend a long time in a fight between my battleship and someone elses. We both agree to risk all we have on it for that fight.

The reward is the other person's stuff. No it isn't. Because in order for us to even remotely have a chance at that we have to orbit at less then 1500m. because some noob in a frigate/or indy will be stuck on one of us waiting for us to pop.

Even if I do die, I have what 15minutes to fit a combat effective ship and find the person who stole the wreckage? I would personally rather have the person who defeated me have that. And meet him again in combat. Then some random paserby.

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Originally by: Nicholas Barker

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Edited by: Nicholas Barker on 05/04/2007 00:00:24
it's so if that guy has buddies and they kill you, then some random joe runs up and grabs the loot they can kill the random joe.

If you take the loot it doesn't matter, since you're at war with the guy and his corpys, so they can shoot you regardless.

If you kill soembody and somebody else takes the loot, you should have been faster i guess :(

edit - and so that if he has a friend with him from another corp he can retake the loot for him.

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Quote:

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Also, he didnt even have a Scrambler, so the POS would have gotten away anyway.

Originally by: Illyria Ambri

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I can only think of 2-3 responses to this..

1. Quit crying.. thats how its setup and this is an unforgiving game.. if you cant handle the loss of loot from loot thieves.. stop attacking ppl in jita with 300 other players hanging around.

2. "Adapt or GTFO"

3. You chose that possibility when you joined a player corp.. if you dont want that to happen.. get out of the player corp.


Players that object to your way of doing things are told to adapt or quit cause EVE is unforgiving..

Now you want the system changed to benefit you so that it is less unforgiving..

Ironic imo

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Originally by: DiuxDium

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To the victor go the spoils.

Anything less is WoW-Ification.

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Originally by: Roue

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Originally by: Nicholas Barker

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Edited by: Nicholas Barker on 05/04/2007 00:00:24
it's so if that guy has buddies and they kill you, then some random joe runs up and grabs the loot they can kill the random joe.

If you take the loot it doesn't matter, since you're at war with the guy and his corpys, so they can shoot you regardless.

If you kill soembody and somebody else takes the loot, you should have been faster i guess :(

edit - and so that if he has a friend with him from another corp he can retake the loot for him.

---

Just tell me real quick. In what way has EVE ever been designed to reward those who have lost?

Why should it now? Hell if I wanted to be honorable and give the guy his stuff back he lost I couldn't even keep it from being stolen.

The defense of this feature, which has no realistic application in game at all. Is nothing but a bias against another form of gameplay.

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Originally by: Roue

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Originally by: MotoTsume

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Edited by: MotoTsume on 04/04/2007 23:47:50
Actually the wreck is flagged, but to the person you shot , the owner of the ship and that is how it should be.
it isnt your loot the moocher is stealing but the person who's ship it was.

So that person can kill the moocher

---

Does that really make any sense though?

That's like saying in a wrestling match for the world championship Bob knocks out Joe. Then some guy in the stands runs onto the ring takes the belt of Joe's unconcious body and if BoB attacks this dude for the belt he just won. The ref will shoot him in the head. ANd Joe who is out cold though has 15 minutes to wake up and beat up the guy who is in his car driving home.

You just got blown up, you were engaged in a pvp fight and you lost. Now let's put aside ganking because I for one love fair and honorable 1v1s. I spend a long time in a fight between my battleship and someone elses. We both agree to risk all we have on it for that fight.

The reward is the other person's stuff. No it isn't. Because in order for us to even remotely have a chance at that we have to orbit at less then 1500m. because some noob in a frigate/or indy will be stuck on one of us waiting for us to pop.

Even if I do die, I have what 15minutes to fit a combat effective ship and find the person who stole the wreckage? I would personally rather have the person who defeated me have that. And meet him again in combat. Then some random paserby.

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Originally by: Roue

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I rarely if ever engage in pvp in jita. Did you know people make a career out of following around members of my alliance to loot them. They set negative standings and follow us THROUGH OUT THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE.

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Originally by: eveplayer11

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if you blow up my car its still my car.. i might not be able to drive it anymore but its mine. when you scavage it i want to kill you, thus i see red and you dont.

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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Originally by: eveplayer11

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if you blow up my car its still my car.. i might not be able to drive it anymore but its mine. when you scavage it i want to kill you, thus i see red and you dont.

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Oh were playing the irl game eh?

well unless your pockets are so fat that you can buy a car with cash its technically the Dealership/Financing Banks car

You kill an NPC it dosen't give the guristas killrights on you it gives you a timer and a standing hit. You actually gain ownership of the can. Now what he is asking for is not total owner ship of the can but instead semi owner ship so he is able to defend that which he fought for. Now before you whip out the "OMG HAULER KILLER F*GS" argument. Think about it. Is that really so much to ask for? or are you logically blind since you like most people here have a vendetta against the privateers?

Are the privateers that bad? The tutorial explicitly told you that you would not be safe unless you were docked. But well the forums shows how many people paid that any attention

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Originally by: Thread Loser

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It is risk free, and damn funny.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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What did you expect? All the advantages of 0.0 and none of the disadvantages? That's the downside to warring in the relatively safety of high security space. Get over it, or get out of Empire.

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Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter

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You knock down a grandma, she lies on the floor. Then another guy comes around and steals the money of the grandma.

So you believe its your money that has been taken??

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Originally by: Dhaikin Lharoud

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Wow ....

Miners are told that they should have a buddy hanging around to protect them, in case someone flips their can.

You should have a buddy follow you around to loot your wrecks for you, problem solved

DL

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Originally by: Roue

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HOWEVER
should this change be unacceptable I will accept one other solution listed below

Asteroids will now follow players around and scoop their ore back. And NPC's will scoop their fallen comrades loot back up.

Thank you for your time.

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Originally by: westernstab

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hmm thats a good idea to make money. just follow the privateer guys and their wars and mooch. I think i will make a corp just for that purpose.

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Originally by: Dhaikin Lharoud

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Wow ....

Miners are told that they should have a buddy hanging around to protect them, in case someone flips their can.

You should have a buddy follow you around to loot your wrecks for you, problem solved

DL

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Originally by: Roue

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stuff

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Originally by: Roue

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You just got blown up, you were engaged in a pvp fight and you lost. Now let's put aside ganking because I for one love fair and honorable 1v1s. I spend a long time in a fight between my battleship and someone elses. We both agree to risk all we have on it for that fight.

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Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby

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I hate these boards

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Originally by: Roue

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Originally by: MotoTsume

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Edited by: MotoTsume on 04/04/2007 23:47:50
Actually the wreck is flagged, but to the person you shot , the owner of the ship and that is how it should be.
it isnt your loot the moocher is stealing but the person who's ship it was.

So that person can kill the moocher

---

Does that really make any sense though?

That's like saying in a wrestling match for the world championship Bob knocks out Joe. Then some guy in the stands runs onto the ring takes the belt of Joe's unconcious body and if BoB attacks this dude for the belt he just won. The ref will shoot him in the head. ANd Joe who is out cold though has 15 minutes to wake up and beat up the guy who is in his car driving home.

You just got blown up, you were engaged in a pvp fight and you lost. Now let's put aside ganking because I for one love fair and honorable 1v1s. I spend a long time in a fight between my battleship and someone elses. We both agree to risk all we have on it for that fight.

The reward is the other person's stuff. No it isn't. Because in order for us to even remotely have a chance at that we have to orbit at less then 1500m. because some noob in a frigate/or indy will be stuck on one of us waiting for us to pop.

Even if I do die, I have what 15minutes to fit a combat effective ship and find the person who stole the wreckage? I would personally rather have the person who defeated me have that. And meet him again in combat. Then some random paserby.

---

Originally by: Roue

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Edited by: Roue on 04/04/2007 23:59:19

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby

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Didn't you guys complain about this last week?

Didn't get much sympathy then either. Simply: The wreck belongs to the PC who's ship was destroyed. Any other method would increase griefing to the original owner.

If you want something along the lines of "dual ownership" so that the killer AND the killed can take the contents, then we demand it for ore lost to can flippers too, plus several hundred other requests to make our stuff "safer" from thieves.

---

But it isn't the same.

In mining. If I am engaged in mining and I'm concerned about someone stealing my ore. I can bring a battleship along with me. The moment he takes my ore I can blow him to kingdom come.

In NPCing. same thing, hell I could probably do it in my npcing ship.

However PVP is considered different for some reason. Where no victory is not celebrated it is dissuaded and the loser has protetion over what he has already agreed to lose by using in pvp.

That makes absolutely no sense. By that right I should be able to go into a mission and loot off the cans of the things you blow up and you shouldn't have any reprocution against me.

Why is my hard work any less worthy then yours?

And seriously. Don't look at me, look at any other pvp instance period. Y corp and Z corp go to war because they role play amarr vs minmatar. They get together a huge fleet battle to engage in fair and balanced fight. One fleet loses. Some guy in a hauler walks off with several billion in goods and no one can do anything about it.

How does that make any sense?

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Originally by: Roue

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On my list this is at the top of current feature/frustrations.

Please at least give us an aggreement on the necessity of change to this. Being followed in empire by moochers who steal my or my victims loot is ridiculous.

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Originally by: westernstab

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hmm thats a good idea to make money. just follow the privateer guys and their wars and mooch. I think i will make a corp just for that purpose.

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Originally by: Roue

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Even if I do die, I have what 15minutes to fit a combat effective ship and find the person who stole the wreckage? I would personally rather have the person who defeated me have that. And meet him again in combat. Then some random paserby.

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Originally by: Roue

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Originally by: Illyria Ambri

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I can only think of 2-3 responses to this..

1. Quit crying.. thats how its setup and this is an unforgiving game.. if you cant handle the loss of loot from loot thieves.. stop attacking ppl in jita with 300 other players hanging around.

2. "Adapt or GTFO"

3. You chose that possibility when you joined a player corp.. if you dont want that to happen.. get out of the player corp.


Players that object to your way of doing things are told to adapt or quit cause EVE is unforgiving..

Now you want the system changed to benefit you so that it is less unforgiving..

Ironic imo

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I rarely if ever engage in pvp in jita. Did you know people make a career out of following around members of my alliance to loot them. They set negative standings and follow us THROUGH OUT THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. Remember when peopel could scan out your missions and take your loot and you couldn't do anything about it

two weeks later it was patched, gotta protect the mission runners.

Yet this form of what is by no different definition then mission griefing.. a form of GRIEFING. is supported.

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Originally by: Roue

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Does that really make any sense though?

That's like saying in a wrestling match for the world championship Bob knocks out Joe. Then some guy in the stands runs onto the ring takes the belt of Joe's unconcious body and if BoB attacks this dude for the belt he just won. The ref will shoot him in the head. ANd Joe who is out cold though has 15 minutes to wake up and beat up the guy who is in his car driving home.

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Originally by: Roue

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On my list this is at the top of current feature/frustrations.

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Originally by: SFShootme

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this is going to turn out in yet another flame against the privateers thread instead of staying un-topic

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Originally by: Okkie2

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Originally by: SFShootme

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this is going to turn out in yet another flame against the privateers thread instead of staying un-topic

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Guess there isn't much to say about this topic anymore. I've seen a dozen of those threads allready.

And yes, i don't think the current solution is the best, but as long as we don't have multiple ownerships (killer as well as killed have lootrights) it is the best one.

But the best solution for the Privateers is to just go to 0.0 where they can kill anybody who follows them, loots there cans etc. They are using wardeclarations in a way they weren't meant (prevent people in a 0.0 war from hiding in empire) and i haven't seen them complain about that

Just learn to live with it, you don't like others looting your kills. Those others don't like being wardec'd just because you can....

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Originally by: SFShootme

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this is going to turn out in yet another flame against the privateers thread instead of staying un-topic

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Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter

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LOL!
Use my metapher instead:
You knock down a grandma, she lies on the floor. Then another guy comes around and steals the money of the grandma.

So you believe its your money that has been taken??

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Quote:

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LOL!
Use my metapher instead:
You knock down a grandma, she lies on the floor. Then another guy comes around and steals the money of the grandma.

So you believe its your money that has been taken??

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Originally by: Curzon Dax

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1. I am not singing Ducktales.

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Originally by: Ashaz

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wow. that was probably the wrst comparison I have ever seen.

a wrestling match...

nono. Let's put it into a propper perspective.
OfficeworkerJoe is walking home from work.
LazyassThug is hideing behind a corner with a gun.
LazyassThug shoots OfficeworkerJoe in the head.
OfficeworkerJoe dies and drops his briefcase.
Streetkid runs by and grabs the briefcase.

now. does LazyassThug call the police and report the Streetkid for stealing?
I didn't think so...

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Originally by: Swirled

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Edited by: Swirled on 05/04/2007 11:30:35

Originally by: Ashaz

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wow. that was probably the wrst comparison I have ever seen.

a wrestling match...

nono. Let's put it into a propper perspective.
OfficeworkerJoe is walking home from work.
LazyassThug is hideing behind a corner with a gun.
LazyassThug shoots OfficeworkerJoe in the head.
OfficeworkerJoe dies and drops his briefcase.
Streetkid runs by and grabs the briefcase.

now. does LazyassThug call the police and report the Streetkid for stealing?
I didn't think so...

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What lazy ass thug did was 'Illegal' The wrecks left in game are coming from 'Legal' kills... If What LazyAssThug Had done had been legal, he would have been well within his rights to phone the police would he not?

These real life metaphors arent goin to work in this instance as IRL Killing would be illegal and come with consequences from a police force of some kind, and in these case the killings are not illegal and are permitted by the police force themselves.

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Originally by: Gouglash

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Why does there need to be multiple lootrights?

The person who died already has killrights on the killer, and the killer is the only one left on the battlefield (well, mostly) so I don't see the need?

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Originally by: Admiral Pieg

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In their blind hate towards the privateers, people fail to see the bigger picture. You guys do realize the privs arent the only ones with empire wars right?

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Originally by: Admiral Pieg

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In their blind hate towards the privateers, people fail to see the bigger picture. You guys do realize the privs arent the only ones with empire wars right?

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Originally by: Dhaikin Lharoud

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Wow ....

Miners are told that they should have a buddy hanging around to protect them, in case someone flips their can.

You should have a buddy follow you around to loot your wrecks for you, problem solved

DL

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Originally by: Roue

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Edited by: Roue on 04/04/2007 23:59:19

Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby

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Didn't you guys complain about this last week?

Didn't get much sympathy then either. Simply: The wreck belongs to the PC who's ship was destroyed. Any other method would increase griefing to the original owner.

If you want something along the lines of "dual ownership" so that the killer AND the killed can take the contents, then we demand it for ore lost to can flippers too, plus several hundred other requests to make our stuff "safer" from thieves.

---

But it isn't the same.

In mining. If I am engaged in mining and I'm concerned about someone stealing my ore. I can bring a battleship along with me. The moment he takes my ore I can blow him to kingdom come.

In NPCing. same thing, hell I could probably do it in my npcing ship.

However PVP is considered different for some reason. Where no victory is not celebrated it is dissuaded and the loser has protetion over what he has already agreed to lose by using in pvp.

That makes absolutely no sense. By that right I should be able to go into a mission and loot off the cans of the things you blow up and you shouldn't have any reprocution against me.

Why is my hard work any less worthy then yours?

And seriously. Don't look at me, look at any other pvp instance period. Y corp and Z corp go to war because they role play amarr vs minmatar. They get together a huge fleet battle to engage in fair and balanced fight. One fleet loses. Some guy in a hauler walks off with several billion in goods and no one can do anything about it.

How does that make any sense?

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Originally by: Admiral Pieg

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In their blind hate towards the privateers, people fail to see the bigger picture. You guys do realize the privs arent the only ones with empire wars right?

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And you realize there are other places to fight besides Empire, right?

Whether they'll admit it or not, players conducting war in high security space are taking as much advantage of the relative safety it provides as the players they're accusing of stealing.

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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All they want is a method to fight off the parasites. Is that so much to ask people? They will accept the aggression timer and the kill rights they receive no problem. But suiciding the multiple kill leeches. . . is ineffective to say the least

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Originally by: Belorem

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With all this whining I wonder how long it takes for someone to setup a Space Trucker corp whose sole purpose is to shadow Privateer gangs and steal their loot. Maybe people could pay them 25 mil/week to shadow a certain Privateer corp. Now that would be ironic

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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All they want is a method to fight off the parasites. Is that so much to ask people? They will accept the aggression timer and the kill rights they receive no problem. But suiciding the multiple kill leeches. . . is ineffective to say the least

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That mechanic already exists. It's called low sec and 0.0 space.

If you're hell bent on diving into the kiddie pool, then don't cry about it being too shallow.

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Originally by: maihem

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Edited by: maihem on 05/04/2007 10:56:10
the answer is simple, if you are facing a new method of griefing being directed at your alliance you can adapt to it and find a way of counter it...

why do you think my alt follows your alliance around stealing loot from your wreaks?
because you found a new way of greifing large alliances in empire, we found a way to adapt.

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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THEY TOLD YOU IN THE FRICKIN TUTORIAL THAT YOU WERE NEVER SAFE AS LONG AS YOU WERE UNDOCKED

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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Loot leeching is RISK FREE.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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The risks associated with "loot leeching" in Empire space are as significant as the risks for conducting war in Empire space. You do the math.

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Originally by: Tom Shandy

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They changed it so people could salvage other wrecks,
Be quicker or get your loot pinched is the only answer child.

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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THEY TOLD YOU IN THE FRICKIN TUTORIAL THAT YOU WERE NEVER SAFE AS LONG AS YOU WERE UNDOCKED

Loot leeching is RISK FREE.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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No you don't get you've got your hands over your ears and your screaming LALALALALALA trying to drown out all logic like every one else who hates the privateers.

Apply Ammo to NPC = Loot can in your name + Aggresion Towards the NPC's corp

Apply Ammo to PC = Loot can in their name + Agression towards that character + Leeches to steal the loot that get no aggresion.

Do you see the problem here?

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Yeah, I see the problem.

You conveniently overlooked that the PC who was formerly flying that wreck DOES get aggression rights towards anyone who loots it.

Originally by: Thread Winner

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ALL THEY WANT IS A WAY TO FIGHT OFF THE LEECHES

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First of all, why should I give a fark what they want? Does anyone give a flying flip what I want?

Secondly, and as I said before, they already can have what they want. It's called low sec and 0.0 space, where not only can you fight off the leeches, but a whole host of potential adversaries.

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Originally by: Kira Natako

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Wrong, anyone can kill the looter, if you're ready to lose a ship.
This whining remind me of players whose haulers get ganked by suicide caracals. What do we say to them when one come cry here? Ah, yes, "High-sec isn't supposed to be totally safe".

Explain again how a loot-stealer doesn't run any risk...


PS: writing in caps and bold doesn't gice more weight to your opinion.

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Originally by: Kira Natako

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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THEY TOLD YOU IN THE FRICKIN TUTORIAL THAT YOU WERE NEVER SAFE AS LONG AS YOU WERE UNDOCKED

Loot leeching is RISK FREE.

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Wrong, anyone can kill the looter, if you're ready to lose a ship.
This whining remind me of players whose haulers get ganked by suicide caracals. What do we say to them when one come cry here? Ah, yes, "High-sec isn't supposed to be totally safe".

Explain again how a loot-stealer doesn't run any risk...


PS: writing in caps and bold doesn't gice more weight to your opinion.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Now, you said that in the other thread as well, and I'd like to hear your reasoning. Do you have a lot of experience in Empire wars? Has that experience made you believe that there is no risk involved? May I ask if you have belonged to a corp that goes around deccing 1 man industrial corps, griefing them for a week and then moving on? Because if that's true, than I can see that you would think that Empire wars are risk free.

/Ki

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Originally by: Ki An

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Now, you said that in the other thread as well, and I'd like to hear your reasoning. Do you have a lot of experience in Empire wars? Has that experience made you believe that there is no risk involved? May I ask if you have belonged to a corp that goes around deccing 1 man industrial corps, griefing them for a week and then moving on? Because if that's true, than I can see that you would think that Empire wars are risk free.

/Ki

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Are you trying to argue that the risks for conducting war in Empire space are equal or greater than fighting in low sec or 0.0? Because if that's true, than I can see why you would think that "loot leeching" merits this much attention.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Are you trying to argue that the risks for conducting war in Empire space are equal or greater than fighting in low sec or 0.0? Because if that's true, than I can see why you would think that "loot leeching" merits this much attention.

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Originally by: acompton

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While I actually get tired of people moaning about the privateers 'explioting' game mechanics (just deal with it, you are allowed to shoot back...) This thread makes me start to think that they have peaked as an alliance and are on the downturn.

Reminds me of this story about a car thief who called the police...
http://www.dumbcrooks.com/car-thief-calls-police/

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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Go kill some one and tell me how many times they come back before the 15min timer is gone.

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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You should care what some one wants because what they want is not 100% out of the question. You should care about something because it is whats right. That is why you should care.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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Go kill some one and tell me how many times they come back before the 15min timer is gone.

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And that's my problem... why exactly?

Whether or not it happens as often as you would like is irrelevant. You've acknowledged that it can happen, that the risk is there. Therefore, you've invalidated your previous allegation and I accept your apology.

Originally by: Thread Winner

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You should care what some one wants because what they want is not 100% out of the question. You should care about something because it is whats right. That is why you should care.

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You're the arbiter now of what's right and not 100% out of the question? How's that working for you? Does the job come with a hat?

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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Caps lock is cruise control for cool.

Yes anyone can kill the looter but that person would need infinite isk as the looter would typically only show up in a garbage ship or a noob ship for that matter so then isk is just being tossed out of the window to kill hordes of leeches and that is simply not fesable as the man power and the money to do so is just not there let alone having a massive hangar filled with suicide kestrels to fight off leeching frigs and noob ships.

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Originally by: William Hamilton

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Just let tractor beams work on all wrecks/cans, if you realy want the loot, you'l fit a tractor beam and get it fast....

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Originally by: Kira Natako

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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Caps lock is cruise control for cool.

Yes anyone can kill the looter but that person would need infinite isk as the looter would typically only show up in a garbage ship or a noob ship for that matter so then isk is just being tossed out of the window to kill hordes of leeches and that is simply not fesable as the man power and the money to do so is just not there let alone having a massive hangar filled with suicide kestrels to fight off leeching frigs and noob ships.

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Then how about you go fight in low-sec? Some low-sec systems still have a lot of traffic, and you wouldn't be bothered much by loot thieves...

Oh, and btw, Some of your members use alts to steal the loot of others privateers. That's why a thread like this is filling me with glee.

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Originally by: Tom Shandy

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If its so much of a problem why havnt i seen sorted, skunk or syrup moaning on here about it ?

answer: because its part of privateer life,always has been, always will be. (hopefully)

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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You should care what some one wants because what they want is not 100% out of the question. You should care about something because it is whats right. That is why you should care.

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Originally by: Tom Shandy

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If its so much of a problem why havnt i seen sorted, skunk or syrup moaning on here about it ?

answer: because its part of privateer life,always has been, always will be. (hopefully)

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Originally by: Kira Natako

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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Caps lock is cruise control for cool.

Yes anyone can kill the looter but that person would need infinite isk as the looter would typically only show up in a garbage ship or a noob ship for that matter so then isk is just being tossed out of the window to kill hordes of leeches and that is simply not fesable as the man power and the money to do so is just not there let alone having a massive hangar filled with suicide kestrels to fight off leeching frigs and noob ships.

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Then how about you go fight in low-sec? Some low-sec systems still have a lot of traffic, and you wouldn't be bothered much by loot thieves...

Oh, and btw, Some of your members use alts to steal the loot of others privateers. That's why a thread like this is filling me with glee.

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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You should care what some one wants because what they want is not 100% out of the question. You should care about something because it is whats right. That is why you should care.

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I think it would be right if wardec costs would start at 100 mil and tentuple with every additional wardec. Or if there was a hard cap of like 3 on contemporary wardecs.
But that does not seem to matter much in the big picture, and I kinda doubt you would care very much for that either.

I also think it is right that the victim gets the rights to his wreck and not his killer.

So your point is again? If you wanna kill stuff and have a better chance to loot your victim, go to lowsec 0.0. Otherwise, stfu. You guys are just as much leeches as those leeching off you. Probably more so tbh.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Oh goodie, I think I can kill two birdies with one stone on this post...

Risk of wars in 0.0 - losing your ship to the corp you're actively at war with... AND any other jackass who wants to shoot at you.
Risk of wars in low-sec - losing your ship to the corp you're actively at war with... AND any other jackass who wants to shoot at you.
Risk of wars in high-sec - losing your ship to the corp you're actively at war with... AND having "your" loot stolen.

See what I did there?

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Originally by: Ki An

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Yes, very amusing indeed. However, I am having a hard time figuring out if you are the cowardly alt of a 0.0 alliance member, or just a cowardly high-sec carebear, as you seem to know a lot about 0.0 and low-sec, but not anything about wars or combat in general.

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Originally by: Ki An

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blah blah blah

So, I'd say that, even though you tried, you failed at establishing that 0.0 and low sec warring is any riskier than high sec wars. In fact, looking at it it would seem to be more of a risk in high sec as you always lose something, winning the battle, or losing it.

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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You know the really amusing part? Despite my apparent ignorance, I'm not the one here crying about having my loot stolen. Imagine that!?

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Originally by: Ki An

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So, I'd say that, even though you tried, you failed at establishing that 0.0 and low sec warring is any riskier than high sec wars. In fact, looking at it it would seem to be more of a risk in high sec as you always lose something, winning the battle, or losing it.

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Correction. This is the really amusing part.

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Originally by: GimmeeThat

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a. The wreck belongs to the person that got shot.

b. If you don't like it move to 0.0.

c. Learn2adapt.

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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Maybe we could get a dev response in this thread. Since they love to pop in on threads saying Hi devs why not pop up in a thread that matters?

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: GimmeeThat

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a. The wreck belongs to the person that got shot.

b. If you don't like it move to 0.0.

c. Learn2adapt.

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Would you care to comment on the issue of risk vs reward in regards to loot thieves, or are you just planning on looking stupid today?

/Ki

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Originally by: Ki An

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I'd venture a guess that it is because either you engage in stealing other people's loot, or you simply never undock. Ignorance is bliss for some people.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Well, tell me what's funny about it already. Don't hold me in suspence. I've asked you about your reasoning for two pages now. Please, just... share your infinite wisdom!

/Ki

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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Originally by: acompton

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While I actually get tired of people moaning about the privateers 'explioting' game mechanics (just deal with it, you are allowed to shoot back...) This thread makes me start to think that they have peaked as an alliance and are on the downturn.

Reminds me of this story about a car thief who called the police...
http://www.dumbcrooks.com/car-thief-calls-police/

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They have peaked because they demand change on something that they can not feasibly fight against?

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Originally by: GimmeeThat

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They are flagged to the loot owner. what's the problem?

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Yeah, it couldn't be anything like relying on teamwork and a network of friends to help avoid what you're crying about. In a massively multiplayer game? That would just be crazy!

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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No bubbles, no sec status drop, readily available stations, high traffic, and as you alluded to earlier, the option to cherry pick one-man industrial corps (or outright n00bs) to grief for a week.

Yeah, what's so funny about suggesting that's riskier than the free-for-all gank-o-rama better known as low-sec and no-sec?

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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I'm mean c'mon... you're absolutely, 100% guaranteed to have your loot stolen in high-sec. There's no possible way to circumvent that! Oh the humanity!

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: GimmeeThat

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They are flagged to the loot owner. what's the problem?

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Read the thread and find out?

/Ki

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Originally by: GimmeeThat

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I've read your circular arguments in the past. You will argue until you hear what you want to hear and ignore logic. The simple fact of the matter is this is the game dynamic.

a. live with it

b. move to 0.0.

c. cry more and shoot yourself in the foot?

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: GimmeeThat

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I've read your circular arguments in the past. You will argue until you hear what you want to hear and ignore logic. The simple fact of the matter is this is the game dynamic.

a. live with it

b. move to 0.0.

c. cry more and shoot yourself in the foot?

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Translation: I don't have any real arguments so I will just troll.

/Ki

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Originally by: Roue

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That's like saying in a wrestling match for the world championship Bob knocks out Joe. Then some guy in the stands runs onto the ring takes the belt of Joe's unconcious body and if BoB attacks this dude for the belt he just won. The ref will shoot him in the head. ANd Joe who is out cold though has 15 minutes to wake up and beat up the guy who is in his car driving home.

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Quote:

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Also, he didnt even have a Scrambler, so the POS would have gotten away anyway.

Originally by: Ki An

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However, you never ever run the risk of losing the spoils of a won battle and not have the slightest chance to prevent it.

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Originally by: Mack Deluxe

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Originally by: Ki An

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However, you never ever run the risk of losing the spoils of a won battle and not have the slightest chance to prevent it.

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A scout in a frigate jumps through your gatecamp. You kill it as soon as it uncloaks. A second afterwards 10 times your number jump through in battleships. Do they wait while you slow boat to their friend's loot and let you leave?

Hmm... I guess there is some risk. Different risks for sure, but still risks.

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Originally by: Mack Deluxe

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Empire wars are lame, griefateers are lame personified.

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Originally by: Mack Deluxe

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Btw, how many people do you think have decided to make an alt expressly for this purpose as a result of this thread?

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Originally by: Ki An

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Maybe you've just been lucky? Ever think of that? You think you are likely to change your mind if/when it happens to you?

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Originally by: Ki An

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Still, I ask you, what is the ultimate risk here. The risk is to lose your ship, and that is the same in Empire wars and in 0.0 wars. The actual likelyhood of losing your ship in either is not up for debate, but rather what the risk is. It is easy for me to make arguments that low sec and 0.0 have less risk due to the fact that you can make a lot more isk there, hence you can afford to lose more ships, hence all the drawbacks are suddenly made up for. However, you never ever run the risk of losing the spoils of a won battle and not have the slightest chance to prevent it.

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Originally by: Ki An

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No you won't lose your loot every time. You will lose enough for it to hurt your pocket book if that is your primary mode of income. Some will lose more than others, and some will never lose anything at all. All of this is also totally missing the point of this discussion, which is, why is loot thieving a risk free profession?

/Ki

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Originally by: Ki An

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To this I can only quote the old adage "opinions are like *******s. Everyone's got one".

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Originally by: Ki An

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That out of the way, I'd propose we look at dual wreck-flagging from another perspective; one of pros and cons.

Pros
- Loot thieving in high sec is no longer risk free.
- The victor of a battle gets his rightful spoils of war.
- The number of alts in velators drop, resulting in less lag (I had to get lag in here somehow )

Cons
- I really can't think of any, but as so many people are so vehemently opposed to this idea, I'm sure there has to be some big ones I have overlooked.

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Originally by: Mack Deluxe

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Originally by: Ki An

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However, you never ever run the risk of losing the spoils of a won battle and not have the slightest chance to prevent it.

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A scout in a frigate jumps through your gatecamp. You kill it as soon as it uncloaks. A second afterwards 10 times your number jump through in battleships. Do they wait while you slow boat to their friend's loot and let you leave?

Hmm... I guess there is some risk. Different risks for sure, but still risks.

Empire wars are lame, griefateers are lame personified.

Btw, how many people do you think have decided to make an alt expressly for this purpose as a result of this thread?

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Originally by: Ki An

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It stands as fact that after a won battle in 0.0, you get the loot. That is not so in high sec.

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Originally by: GimmeeThat

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Originally by: Ki An

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It stands as fact that after a won battle in 0.0, you get the loot. That is not so in high sec.

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So move to 0.0 and do your thing... oh wait... you guys are a bunch of b*#&@s.. nm..

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Originally by: Ki An

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I'll give you three coppers if you get back under the bridge and don't eat me.

/Ki

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Originally by: Ki An

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To avoid getting drawn into an even longer, and eventually pointless, flamewar, I just thought I'd quote myself and ask you to provide some cons here.

I r debetin constructly

Originally by: Ki An

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That out of the way, I'd propose we look at dual wreck-flagging from another perspective; one of pros and cons.

Pros
- Loot thieving in high sec is no longer risk free.
- The victor of a battle gets his rightful spoils of war.
- The number of alts in velators drop, resulting in less lag (I had to get lag in here somehow )

Cons
- I really can't think of any, but as so many people are so vehemently opposed to this idea, I'm sure there has to be some big ones I have overlooked.

---

/Ki

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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And I counter-propose you either:

a) ask a friend in a non-war dec'd corp to collect your loot for you, or...
b) go to low-sec/no-sec where you can pretty much shoot anybody at anytime for any reason you want.

Pros
- Devs don't have to re-code a damned thing.
- You might actually enjoy a little teamwork in an MMO.
- Low-sec could get a bit of a population boost.

Cons
- I really can't think of any.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Nice try, but try mine instead.

/Ki

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Originally by: Roue

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The defense of this feature, which has no realistic application in game at all. Is nothing but a bias against another form of gameplay.

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Cons:

- If it ain't broke don't fix it - It is broken imo, so I want it fixed
- If someone killed is accompanied by a friend not in his corp, and said friend saves the loot, he then is fair game to the killer too? I don't think so... Why not? It's the spoils of war.
- I am sure most victims will be happy if their loot goes to a random vulture rather than the lazy ganktard that killed him. And if you are not lazy, use a damn looting ship yourself. Can't be that hard. He died, so he gets no say in it.

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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...or are you logically blind since you like most people here have a vendetta against the privateers?

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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Are the privateers that bad?

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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The tutorial explicitly told you that you would not be safe unless you were docked.

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Originally by: JourneymanDave

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Originally by: Roue

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The defense of this feature, which has no realistic application in game at all. Is nothing but a bias against another form of gameplay.

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That's a totally unsupported assertion. This empire ganking form of gameplay is new, and came into existence long after the game mechanics were firmly entrenched.

On the contrary, the facts seem to be tht you're asking for the established game mechanics to change to better suit your preferred style of gameplay. Try to keep this factual.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Cons:

- If it ain't broke don't fix it - It is broken imo, so I want it fixed
- If someone killed is accompanied by a friend not in his corp, and said friend saves the loot, he then is fair game to the killer too? I don't think so... Why not? It's the spoils of war.
- I am sure most victims will be happy if their loot goes to a random vulture rather than the lazy ganktard that killed him. And if you are not lazy, use a damn looting ship yourself. Can't be that hard. He died, so he gets no say in it.

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My answers in bold.

/Ki

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Originally by: WillisCorto

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Amusing names for a Corp that follows these 'players' around and steals their stuff.

I will give a Million ISK to whoever comes up with the funniest

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Originally by: JourneymanDave

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And mine...

Not broken, been that way for a long time. No one had an issue until high-sec wardec farming came into vogue. I haven't looked, but I'd bet no one can link a single pre-Privateers whine about this issue. Anyone?

Spoils of War or not, they're merely liberated assets in space at that point in time. I think that everyone understands that high-powered combat ships are not optimal for scooping loot in high-traffic areas. Fly smarter.

Agreed that the victim pilot gets no say on who scoops his loot, he should have flown smarter too. However, this is not particularly relevant to the argument of whether or not the killing pilot gets a say either. Those are two disconnected issues.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Leandro Salazar

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Cons:

- If it ain't broke don't fix it - It is broken imo, so I want it fixed
- If someone killed is accompanied by a friend not in his corp, and said friend saves the loot, he then is fair game to the killer too? I don't think so... Why not? It's the spoils of war.
- I am sure most victims will be happy if their loot goes to a random vulture rather than the lazy ganktard that killed him. And if you are not lazy, use a damn looting ship yourself. Can't be that hard. He died, so he gets no say in it.

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My answers in bold.

/Ki

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Originally by: Hamfast

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Ki,

While I respect your opinion, I must disagree, it is not broke, and your (and the OP's) requested fix would take the recoding of a myriad of objects in such a way to deal with parts of the game you are not taking into account.

The Cons are really there, you just fail to see or care about them... just like I don't much care who steals the stuff from the wreck of my ganked ship... if you could kill me once, you could kill me again, so I will not come back to see who took it... this may not be true in a few months, but it is true now...

It has little to do with the spoils of war, you got that in the joy of popping me, if you did not enjoy that part of the game, you would not take part in it.

While we are recoding the game, lets limit War Decs, raise the cost 50-fold, add "Ore Holds" to mining Barges that can be docked (secure transfer) to by a hauler... and so many other ideas that some find good, but others find to be a waste of time...

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: JourneymanDave

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And mine...

Not broken, been that way for a long time. No one had an issue until high-sec wardec farming came into vogue. I haven't looked, but I'd bet no one can link a single pre-Privateers whine about this issue. Anyone?

Spoils of War or not, they're merely liberated assets in space at that point in time. I think that everyone understands that high-powered combat ships are not optimal for scooping loot in high-traffic areas. Fly smarter.

Agreed that the victim pilot gets no say on who scoops his loot, he should have flown smarter too. However, this is not particularly relevant to the argument of whether or not the killing pilot gets a say either. Those are two disconnected issues.

---

Can you please formulate that in a list of cons to having the flagging rules changed? None of your points really makes changing the rules unviable.

/Ki

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Originally by: Swirled

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Edited by: Swirled on 05/04/2007 11:30:35

Originally by: Ashaz

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wow. that was probably the wrst comparison I have ever seen.

a wrestling match...

nono. Let's put it into a propper perspective.
OfficeworkerJoe is walking home from work.
LazyassThug is hideing behind a corner with a gun.
LazyassThug shoots OfficeworkerJoe in the head.
OfficeworkerJoe dies and drops his briefcase.
Streetkid runs by and grabs the briefcase.

now. does LazyassThug call the police and report the Streetkid for stealing?
I didn't think so...

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What lazy ass thug did was 'Illegal' The wrecks left in game are coming from 'Legal' kills... If What LazyAssThug Had done had been legal, he would have been well within his rights to phone the police would he not?

These real life metaphors arent goin to work in this instance as IRL Killing would be illegal and come with consequences from a police force of some kind, and in these case the killings are not illegal and are permitted by the police force themselves.

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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All they want is a method to fight off the parasites. Is that so much to ask people?

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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They will accept the aggression timer and the kill rights they receive no problem. But suiciding the multiple kill leeches. . . is ineffective to say the least

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Originally by: Hamfast

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1) The Player Ship Object (PC - Object), when it Generates an object (jet-can or Wreck) assigns ownership of that object to the original PC Owner, to change the way that works would mean the PC Object, when Killed by an NPC, would have it's ownership pointed to the NPC, not the player (Mission runners would not own their own wreck)

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Originally by: Hamfast

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2) The Spoils of War are already there, it is against the "Laws of War" to loot the corpses of your enemy, not that it does not happen... you see, you do not own the corpse of the enemy killed... I will grant you, in (RL) wars, looters are often shot... hence granting Everyone kill rights on the looter would be a viable answer, not changing the ownership of the generated object...

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Originally by: Hamfast

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3) While I may be the victim, I do not care about the victim, they lost and do not matter.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Risk of wars in 0.0 - losing your ship.
Risk of wars in low-sec - losing your ship
Risk of wars in high-sec - uhm... tricky one, but I'd have to go with... losing your ship /Edit: Oh, and your loot if you won.

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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THEY TOLD YOU IN THE FRICKIN TUTORIAL THAT YOU WERE NEVER SAFE AS LONG AS YOU WERE UNDOCKED

Loot leeching is RISK FREE.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Hamfast

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2) The Spoils of War are already there, it is against the "Laws of War" to loot the corpses of your enemy, not that it does not happen... you see, you do not own the corpse of the enemy killed... I will grant you, in (RL) wars, looters are often shot... hence granting Everyone kill rights on the looter would be a viable answer, not changing the ownership of the generated object...

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Good point. I also like your point about everyone having killrights. That, of course, would then have to apply to ore-thieves as well.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Ki An

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Risk of wars in 0.0 - losing your ship.
Risk of wars in low-sec - losing your ship
Risk of wars in high-sec - uhm... tricky one, but I'd have to go with... losing your ship /Edit: Oh, and your loot if you won.

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Exept what you are really doing is piracy. This is not necessarily something bad, but it should be classified as such. You are not making wars to hurt enemy corps by destroying their assets but to earn money from their surviving items.

So, what are the advantages and disadvantages of piracy in the different regions?

0.0:
significantly reduced amount of traffic - fewer targets & easier for targets to spot you, be it on the map or local
low (accessible) station count - more time spend travelling till you can resupply/unload loot
dictors/warp bubbles - travelling more dangerous

low sec
reduced amount of traffic - fewer targets & easier for targets to spot you, be it on the map or local
outlaw status - inability to travel to highsec
sentry guns - only bigger ships viable for gatecamping

high sec
war dec needed to pirate a corp there - 50 mil additional costs/week per corp
very high amount of traffic - targets can be found quite fast
inability to stop people looting ships you killed outside being faster


The high traffic and the resulting high amount of targets/kills and the war dec costs counter each other just fine. What is left are loot thieves.

Compared to outlaw status & sentry guns of low sec piracy and the longer and more dangerous travel of 0.0 piracy those are the lesser evil, though.

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Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby

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Giving everyone shoot rights would be a perfect solution But I can already hear the cries of "You are nerfing the legitimate Ore Thief profession!!!!!"

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Originally by: Ki An

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First I'd like to thank you for offering up good points. It's a rarity in this thread (and forum), and that includes myself.

Originally by: Hamfast

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1) The Player Ship Object (PC - Object), when it Generates an object (jet-can or Wreck) assigns ownership of that object to the original PC Owner, to change the way that works would mean the PC Object, when Killed by an NPC, would have it's ownership pointed to the NPC, not the player (Mission runners would not own their own wreck)

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Are you saying it cannot be programmed around (without too much difficulty)? If that is the case, I will immediately concede.

Neither you nor I know how hard it would be to program around, I therefore would have to defer to a Dev that works on the code, but as a dev that works on other code (My RL occupation) I can tell you no simple change is ever simple...

Originally by: Hamfast

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2) The Spoils of War are already there, it is against the "Laws of War" to loot the corpses of your enemy, not that it does not happen... you see, you do not own the corpse of the enemy killed... I will grant you, in (RL) wars, looters are often shot... hence granting Everyone kill rights on the looter would be a viable answer, not changing the ownership of the generated object...

---

Good point. I also like your point about everyone having kill rights. That, of course, would then have to apply to ore-thieves as well.

Ore thieves or loot thieves - they are just thieves...

Originally by: Hamfast

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3) While I may be the victim, I do not care about the victim, they lost and do not matter.

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I'm not certain I understand this one.

my point here is that the victim (PC that has left in his pod or woke up in some vat) is a straw man in the discussion, while he may have ôOwnershipö of his wreck, he has no further input into the issueà as to my combat ability, I can fly a BC, but my skills are so good that I need that BC to do level 1 missionsà but I can build that BC, mine and refine the oreàI am enjoying the Industrial end of the game and would not be able to put up much of a fightà

/Ki

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Mack Deluxe

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Originally by: Ki An

---

However, you never ever run the risk of losing the spoils of a won battle and not have the slightest chance to prevent it.

---

A scout in a frigate jumps through your gatecamp. You kill it as soon as it uncloaks. A second afterwards 10 times your number jump through in battleships. Do they wait while you slow boat to their friend's loot and let you leave?

Hmm... I guess there is some risk. Different risks for sure, but still risks.

---

Uhm... what has this got to do with the paragraph you quoted? It stands as fact that after a won battle in 0.0, you get the loot. That is not so in high sec.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Mack Deluxe

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Empire wars are lame, griefateers are lame personified.

---

To this I can only quote the old adage "opinions are like *******s. Everyone's got one".

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Originally by: Ki An

---

Originally by: Mack Deluxe

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Btw, how many people do you think have decided to make an alt expressly for this purpose as a result of this thread?

---

The more the better imo. The more people do this, the sooner CCP will realise that it is a problem.

That out of the way, I'd propose we look at dual wreck-flagging from another perspective; one of pros and cons.

Pros
- Loot thieving in high sec is no longer risk free.
- The victor of a battle gets his rightful spoils of war.
- The number of alts in velators drop, resulting in less lag (I had to get lag in here somehow )

Cons
- I really can't think of any, but as so many people are so vehemently opposed to this idea, I'm sure there has to be some big ones I have overlooked.

/Ki

---

Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: JourneymanDave

---

And mine...

Not broken, been that way for a long time. No one had an issue until high-sec wardec farming came into vogue. I haven't looked, but I'd bet no one can link a single pre-Privateers whine about this issue. Anyone?

Spoils of War or not, they're merely liberated assets in space at that point in time. I think that everyone understands that high-powered combat ships are not optimal for scooping loot in high-traffic areas. Fly smarter.

Agreed that the victim pilot gets no say on who scoops his loot, he should have flown smarter too. However, this is not particularly relevant to the argument of whether or not the killing pilot gets a say either. Those are two disconnected issues.

---

Can you please formulate that in a list of cons to having the flagging rules changed? None of your points really makes changing the rules unviable.

/Ki

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Originally by: JourneymanDave

---

I've checked the latest Dev blogs and patch notes, and see no mention from CCP of loot flagging being modified. With that, and my own observation of these handful of threads, I can only conclude that a strong case hasn't been made to CCP. I know that from my personal perspective, I haven't seen it.

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Originally by: Desidarius

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Edited by: Desidarius on 05/04/2007 11:40:26

Originally by: Swirled

---

Edited by: Swirled on 05/04/2007 11:30:35

Originally by: Ashaz

---

wow. that was probably the wrst comparison I have ever seen.

a wrestling match...

nono. Let's put it into a propper perspective.
OfficeworkerJoe is walking home from work.
LazyassThug is hideing behind a corner with a gun.
LazyassThug shoots OfficeworkerJoe in the head.
OfficeworkerJoe dies and drops his briefcase.
Streetkid runs by and grabs the briefcase.

now. does LazyassThug call the police and report the Streetkid for stealing?
I didn't think so...

---

What lazy ass thug did was 'Illegal' The wrecks left in game are coming from 'Legal' kills... If What LazyAssThug Had done had been legal, he would have been well within his rights to phone the police would he not?

These real life metaphors arent goin to work in this instance as IRL Killing would be illegal and come with consequences from a police force of some kind, and in these case the killings are not illegal and are permitted by the police force themselves.

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LOL. Lets say the Mafia paid the police to do whatever they wanted in a relatively safe neighborhood. They go ahead and do whatever they want. Bullying the local folk and some of the big businesses. Now people get tired of this, since the local police won't do a thing, the people start stealing from the mafia here & there. Does the mafia go & complain to the police department that they are being targeted by thieves? No, they do something themselves, cause that's the kind of environment they propagated. It's called Karma. Whatever you put into the world shall be returned to you threefold. Some may not believe, but this is a good example.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Aramendel

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stuff!

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Another good point. Seems the star pupils are entering now

Can't say I disagree with any of this, and I'll concede to this reasoning.

/Ki

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Originally by: Blue Pixie

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Bah.

Granted Aramendel is considerably more eloquent than I, but he effectively just made the same argument I've been trying to hammer across for the past several hours.

Either way, I'm glad to see at least someone has finally appealed to your sense of reason.

No hard feelings?

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Mack Deluxe

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Originally by: Ki An

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However, you never ever run the risk of losing the spoils of a won battle and not have the slightest chance to prevent it.

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A scout in a frigate jumps through your gatecamp. You kill it as soon as it uncloaks. A second afterwards 10 times your number jump through in battleships. Do they wait while you slow boat to their friend's loot and let you leave?

Hmm... I guess there is some risk. Different risks for sure, but still risks.

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Uhm... what has this got to do with the paragraph you quoted? It stands as fact that after a won battle in 0.0, you get the loot. That is not so in high sec.

Originally by: Mack Deluxe

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Empire wars are lame, griefateers are lame personified.

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To this I can only quote the old adage "opinions are like *******s. Everyone's got one".

Originally by: Mack Deluxe

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Btw, how many people do you think have decided to make an alt expressly for this purpose as a result of this thread?

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The more the better imo. The more people do this, the sooner CCP will realise that it is a problem.

That out of the way, I'd propose we look at dual wreck-flagging from another perspective; one of pros and cons.

Pros
- Loot thieving in high sec is no longer risk free.
- The victor of a battle gets his rightful spoils of war.
- The number of alts in velators drop, resulting in less lag (I had to get lag in here somehow )

Cons
- I really can't think of any, but as so many people are so vehemently opposed to this idea, I'm sure there has to be some big ones I have overlooked.

/Ki

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Originally by: Howling Jinn

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ADAPT!
have a cloaked hauler with you. fit mwd on it.

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Quote:

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Also, he didnt even have a Scrambler, so the POS would have gotten away anyway.

Originally by: Venkul Mul

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The point is the usual one, and as usual you avoid to reply to Hamfast: the game code.
Adding multiple ownership would be very nice, but it will change the game engine in thousand of points.

I suspect it will require a patch in the same class of the Revelation 1 patch, and I dubt CCP will do that only for privateers.

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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What risk is there to the thief? The loser lost so they cant undock and not get killed by the winner, and why would you need to retain ownership of the wreck when you're at war?! Its not like to need flagging to kill the guy that just killed you.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Another little problem: how far back the system must remember who shooted a ship?
Last 5 minutes? last 10? 1 hour?

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Originally by: Hamfast

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Another little problem: how far back the system must remember who shooted a ship?
Last 5 minutes? last 10? 1 hour?

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Oh, I had not even thought of this...

for example, We are at war, blasting away at each other, you get the upper hand and are eating into my hull... when I use the jump-gate... I land on the other side ready to WTZ to the nearest station or some other point... you are just behind me counting on your better connection and PC to get the one last shot on me that should end the fight... but there is a punk in his noob-ship that takes that final shot on my flaming pile of poo... Who would own the wreck in the Ki An world?

You did the work but did not get the kill...

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Originally by: Hamfast

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Another little problem: how far back the system must remember who shooted a ship?
Last 5 minutes? last 10? 1 hour?

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Oh, I had not even thought of this...

for example, We are at war, blasting away at each other, you get the upper hand and are eating into my hull... when I use the jump-gate... I land on the other side ready to WTZ to the nearest station or some other point... you are just behind me counting on your better connection and PC to get the one last shot on me that should end the fight... but there is a punk in his noob-ship that takes that final shot on my flaming pile of poo... Who would own the wreck in the Ki An world?

You did the work but did not get the kill...

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Originally by: Thread Winner

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Originally by: Hamfast

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Another little problem: how far back the system must remember who shooted a ship?
Last 5 minutes? last 10? 1 hour?

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Oh, I had not even thought of this...

for example, We are at war, blasting away at each other, you get the upper hand and are eating into my hull... when I use the jump-gate... I land on the other side ready to WTZ to the nearest station or some other point... you are just behind me counting on your better connection and PC to get the one last shot on me that should end the fight... but there is a punk in his noob-ship that takes that final shot on my flaming pile of poo... Who would own the wreck in the Ki An world?

You did the work but did not get the kill...

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Noobship gets concordokken'd War target gets loot

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Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Hamfast

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2) The Spoils of War are already there, it is against the "Laws of War" to loot the corpses of your enemy, not that it does not happen... you see, you do not own the corpse of the enemy killed... I will grant you, in (RL) wars, looters are often shot... hence granting Everyone kill rights on the looter would be a viable answer, not changing the ownership of the generated object...

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Good point. I also like your point about everyone having killrights. That, of course, would then have to apply to ore-thieves as well.

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Giving everyone shoot rights would be a perfect solution But I can already hear the cries of "You are nerfing the legitimate Ore Thief profession!!!!!"

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Originally by: Hamfast

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I suspect the Suicide ganker would get the Kill Mail...

I want to know who owns the wreck in the Ki An version of the game (loot, like the loser, has nothing to say).

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