Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly

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Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...

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Originally by: n0thing

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Edited by: n0thing on 27/04/2007 17:24:05
Doubling damage bonus from damage mods and removing rof bonus will utterly bring 1400 IIs users to the very very top. Right now, as i seen, wrecks can reach around 2800 dmg on Hail L with maxed or semi-maxed skills. Now, assuming with that change a 3000 hit will be normal, we will see a Tempest doing up to 18 000 hp damage per one volley.

That will insta-pop anything but BS/CS class and even then only those that are tanked decently.

Seriosly...that would make ppl fly in one gank-arty setup 99% of the time.

EDIT: Not to mention that smaller ships need promoting not the opposite.

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Originally by: Tuxford

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I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants).

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Originally by: n0thing

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Edited by: n0thing on 27/04/2007 17:24:05
Doubling damage bonus from damage mods and removing rof bonus will utterly bring 1400 IIs users to the very very top. Right now, as i seen, wrecks can reach around 2800 dmg on Hail L with maxed or semi-maxed skills. Now, assuming with that change a 3000 hit will be normal, we will see a Tempest doing up to 18 000 hp damage per one volley.

That will insta-pop anything but BS/CS class and even then only those that are tanked decently.

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Originally by: Starraker

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Originally by: n0thing

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Edited by: n0thing on 27/04/2007 17:24:05
Doubling damage bonus from damage mods and removing rof bonus will utterly bring 1400 IIs users to the very very top. Right now, as i seen, wrecks can reach around 2800 dmg on Hail L with maxed or semi-maxed skills. Now, assuming with that change a 3000 hit will be normal, we will see a Tempest doing up to 18 000 hp damage per one volley.

That will insta-pop anything but BS/CS class and even then only those that are tanked decently.

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3000 damage per shot? That means the target is dual webbed and target painted 3 times, if you want to pull that off for every shot in your volley. When that is the case the target would be need deep in **** allready. Don't forget any decent BS has more then 50% resist allround. So there is no way you can one volley a BS... ever.
The hitpoint increase was done to get longer fights, since the dps doesn't change there you don't negate that.
I do agree that you would need less ships in a fleetfight to one volley a primary.

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Originally by: n0thing

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Originally by: Starraker

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Originally by: n0thing

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Edited by: n0thing on 27/04/2007 17:24:05
Doubling damage bonus from damage mods and removing rof bonus will utterly bring 1400 IIs users to the very very top. Right now, as i seen, wrecks can reach around 2800 dmg on Hail L with maxed or semi-maxed skills. Now, assuming with that change a 3000 hit will be normal, we will see a Tempest doing up to 18 000 hp damage per one volley.

That will insta-pop anything but BS/CS class and even then only those that are tanked decently.

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3000 damage per shot? That means the target is dual webbed and target painted 3 times, if you want to pull that off for every shot in your volley. When that is the case the target would be need deep in **** allready. Don't forget any decent BS has more then 50% resist allround. So there is no way you can one volley a BS... ever.
The hitpoint increase was done to get longer fights, since the dps doesn't change there you don't negate that.
I do agree that you would need less ships in a fleetfight to one volley a primary.

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Not a BS, just if you stand with Quake(right thats the ammo, sry), at around 45km from a tackled target by inty, if its smaller then tanked-BC its dead in 10 secs at most, after second cycle hits.

Means we get a BS with dps more then any other non-cap ingame, moreover not using cap. Way too overpowered imo.

Well, me being a Gallente, same goes to Blasterthrons, will volley cruiser class with ease.

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Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe

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Originally by: Eximius Josari

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If BS Sized HACs would be overpowered, what are HACs?

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Overpriced Nos victims.

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Originally by: Terradoct

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split it into 2 moduls one with rof bonus but with dmg penalty, 1 with dmg bonus but with rof penalty.

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Originally by: Terradoct

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split it into 2 moduls one with rof bonus but with dmg penalty, 1 with dmg bonus but with rof penalty.

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Originally by: s4mp3r0r

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"Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".

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Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

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No-one seems to have mentioned that this would make life a lot easier for all Amarr pilots (Arbitrator pilots excepted). Is this a 'boost Amarr' thread in disguise?

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Originally by: Reto

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this would unbalance some stuff and ofc benefit cap using guns more than non cap guns (abbadon firing 8 tachs II and repping all the time = big no no).
rof also means more hit chances while fighting in falloff (minmatar). abondoning rof bonuses will unbalance the game and make concentrated firepower the no. 1 choice thus increase blobing even more.
imo rof is an important factor to be considered for a tactical application. rof means also to make enuff dmg in less time thus dealing more dmg per sec than a rep can compensate. i wouldnt remove the rof. ammo/cargohold use and cap use are two balancing mechanics in eve and therefore shouldnt be changed easily.

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Originally by: madaluap

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yep would rock ^^

You will get less dps, but more alpha, which is a good trade imo

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Originally by: Kulmid

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I think this might make Minmatar AC ships a little bit overpowered because they would be able to reach insane DPS ammonts because of their ability to fit 2-3 RoF rigs do to their low fitting reqs. A Tempest can already push 1k+ DPS, if this were implimented I don't even want to know what would happen to their DPS with a huge damage mod and 3 RoF rigs.

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Originally by: Elmicker

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Can you imagine the alpha strike on a tempest if you swapped the RoF bonus for added Damage bonus?

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Originally by: n0thing

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It will do good, and bad still.

Minmatar arties will become usefull and both overpowered, since now 3 damage mods will give 2x and not 1x damage, but also if you landen yourself with rof rigs, your having another 20-30% damage on top of all. Means Minmatar now gets most powerfull dps. Notice, not alpha strike, dps, since he keeps the rof same but having 50% increase on each damage mod.

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Quote:

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READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Originally by: n0thing

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It will do good, and bad still.

Minmatar arties will become usefull and both overpowered, since now 3 damage mods will give 2x and not 1x damage, but also if you landen yourself with rof rigs, your having another 20-30% damage on top of all. Means Minmatar now gets most powerfull dps. Notice, not alpha strike, dps, since he keeps the rof same but having 50% increase on each damage mod.

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you need to learn to think before wrtioe. What disallow other races to do exact same and acheive the same DPS increase? So Minmatar would still have thelowest DPS.. daaaaaaa

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Originally by: n0thing

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Originally by: n0thing

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It will do good, and bad still.

Minmatar arties will become usefull and both overpowered, since now 3 damage mods will give 2x and not 1x damage, but also if you landen yourself with rof rigs, your having another 20-30% damage on top of all. Means Minmatar now gets most powerfull dps. Notice, not alpha strike, dps, since he keeps the rof same but having 50% increase on each damage mod.

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you need to learn to think before wrtioe. What disallow other races to do exact same and acheive the same DPS increase? So Minmatar would still have thelowest DPS.. daaaaaaa

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Actually no, since rof gives slightly less DPS increase then damage mod increase gives. Means the ships with higher multiplier will have higher increase. If just pick rough numbers as of 15ish k damage a volley, that means around 1500 dps on a maxed tempest after the change.

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Originally by: Starraker

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Edited by: Starraker on 27/04/2007 15:07:20
Hi all, I wondered if someone ever thought of this:

Damage mods increase damage and rate of fire. I say: Only let them give a damage bonus, in such a way that it gives the same amount of DPS increase.

There are three reasons for this:
1)This will decrease a bit of lag in fleet battles. Because there will be less shots fired per minute.
2)This is more fair for people who use hybrids and energy weapons, since they have to use more cap with higher RoF and missiles and projectiles do not.
3)This might actually make alfa strike usefull again after the HP increase.

The only problem I see with this are the RoF rigs wich would be slightly overpowered when this is implemented. So they should still stack with damage mods even though it is not the same atribute.

So, what does everyone think about this?

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Originally by: Sigos

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I'm not usually one to say things like this, but: WTS 3rd grade math

Let us assume:
Damage Modifier = 1
Rate of Fire = 1
Damage Bonus 1 (Current Module) = 2
Rate of Fire Bonus 1 (Current Module) = .5
Damage Bonus 2 (Proposed Module) = 4

Base DPS = Damage Modifier / Rate of Fire = 1 / 1 = 1
Current Post-Damage Module DPS = (Damage Modifier * Damage Bonus 1) / (Rate of Fire * Rate of Fire Bonus 1) = (1 * 2) / (1 * .5) = 2 / .5 = 4
Proposed Post-Damage Module DPS = (Damage Modifier * Damage Bonus 2) / Rate of Fire = (1 * 4) / 1 = 4 / 1 = 4

Therefore, both modules result in the same DPS.

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Originally by: Kulmid

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I think this might make Minmatar AC ships a little bit overpowered because they would be able to reach insane DPS ammonts because of their ability to fit 2-3 RoF rigs do to their low fitting reqs. A Tempest can already push 1k+ DPS, if this were implimented I don't even want to know what would happen to their DPS with a huge damage mod and 3 RoF rigs.

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Quote:

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Damage = 100 hp/shot
RoF = 1 shot/10 seconds (or .10 shots/second)
Damage Bonus (current module): 10%
RoF Bonus (current): 10%
Damage (proposed): 20%

DPS = Damage * ROF (hp/shot times shot/second shot cancels out and you get hp/second)
DIVIDED IS WRONG that would give you hp/shot // shot/second which comes out to "hpshots per second^2"

So, base damage here is 100hp/shot * 0.1 shots/second == 10DPS

Current post damage modules DPS =
(100hp/shot * 1.10) * (.1 shots/sec * 1.10) == 12.1 DPS or a 21% increase.

Proposed post damage modules DPS =
(100hp/shot * 1.20) * .1 shots/sec == 12 DPS or a 20% increase


Now, we fit 2 damage mods (assuming no stacking nerf)
Current post damage modules DPS =
(100hp/shot * 1.10 * 1.10) * (.1 shots/sec * 1.10 * 1.10) == 14.64 DPS or a 46.41% increase.

Proposed post damage modules DPS =
(100hp/shot * 1.20* 1.20) * .1 shots/sec == 14.4 DPS or a 44% increase

The gap is widening!

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Originally by: Sun Win

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Edited by: Sun Win on 29/04/2007 16:18:34

Originally by: Sigos

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I'm not usually one to say things like this, but: WTS 3rd grade math

Let us assume:
Damage Modifier = 1
Rate of Fire = 1
Damage Bonus 1 (Current Module) = 2
Rate of Fire Bonus 1 (Current Module) = .5
Damage Bonus 2 (Proposed Module) = 4

Base DPS = Damage Modifier / Rate of Fire = 1 / 1 = 1
Current Post-Damage Module DPS = (Damage Modifier * Damage Bonus 1) / (Rate of Fire * Rate of Fire Bonus 1) = (1 * 2) / (1 * .5) = 2 / .5 = 4
Proposed Post-Damage Module DPS = (Damage Modifier * Damage Bonus 2) / Rate of Fire = (1 * 4) / 1 = 4 / 1 = 4

Therefore, both modules result in the same DPS.

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Err watch your units.

Damage = 100 hp/shot
RoF = 1 shot/10 seconds (or .10 shots/second)
Damage Bonus (current module): 10%
RoF Bonus (current): 10%
Damage (proposed): 20%

DPS = Damage * ROF (hp/shot times shot/second shot cancels out and you get hp/second)
DIVIDED IS WRONG that would give you hp/shot // shot/second which comes out to "hpshots per second^2"

So, base damage here is 100hp/shot * 0.1 shots/second == 10DPS

Current post damage modules DPS =
(100hp/shot * 1.10) * (.1 shots/sec * 1.10) == 12.1 DPS or a 21% increase.

Proposed post damage modules DPS =
(100hp/shot * 1.20) * .1 shots/sec == 12 DPS or a 20% increase


Now, we fit 2 damage mods (assuming no stacking nerf)
Current post damage modules DPS =
(100hp/shot * 1.10 * 1.10) * (.1 shots/sec * 1.10 * 1.10) == 14.64 DPS or a 46.41% increase.

Proposed post damage modules DPS =
(100hp/shot * 1.20* 1.20) * .1 shots/sec == 14.4 DPS or a 44% increase

The gap is widening!

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Originally by: Goumindong

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This would up volley damage on 3 damage mod'd ships by 30.79% assuming it was balanced for the same DPS.

Big buff to artillery and blasters. Not so much for lasers, but the cap use bonus would be nice. This is because lasers dont depend on front loaded DPS, like arties and blasters do, though it would still be a significant buff for lasers.

It would shorten fights, that isnt really what the devs have been aiming at.

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Originally by: Angus McLean

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Originally by: Goumindong

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This would up volley damage on 3 damage mod'd ships by 30.79% assuming it was balanced for the same DPS.

Big buff to artillery and blasters. Not so much for lasers, but the cap use bonus would be nice. This is because lasers dont depend on front loaded DPS, like arties and blasters do, though it would still be a significant buff for lasers.

It would shorten fights, that isnt really what the devs have been aiming at.

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Thats what we're hoping for. A larger buff for lasers and a smaller buff for the other weapon systems. Seeings Amarr mainly rely on their tank to live, dps isnt as much of an issue. Cap on the other hand is, and DoT on lasers isnt half bad.

So this is actually a cool idea IMO

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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Edited by: Neuromandis on 29/04/2007 21:38:19
Edited by: Neuromandis on 29/04/2007 21:37:01
I do not like it at all.
My reasons are various:
First, Alpha is all well and good, you don't have to single volley something for it to work (you already get a "virtual" damage bonus by your damage being frontloaded, which lessens as the fight progresses). On the other hand, very high alfa is completely UNFAIR to smaller ships. A boosting assault frigate that can tank your dps should not be able to be single-volleyed thus, denying it the chance to use its repping skills by a lucky blow, ***coming from a mainstream battleship, not even a specialized setup***. Combat must last more, not less. Yes minmatar would like it but sorry they do not need to single volley everything less than battleships.

Second it would totally be in favor of Minmatar with their too-easy fitting requirements.
Third, contrary to what I see posted, it would actually WORSEN the situation for Amarr, because there is no way in hell they will be able to use the rigs that will be standard for everyone else. Instead, everyone BUT amarr will be using them -> hidden amarr nerf by introducing something that everyone else BUT them will be able to use.

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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Edited by: Neuromandis on 29/04/2007 21:38:19
Fourth, There is absolutely no real reason to do something like that. None at all.
If the devs feel that Projectiles need more alfa, they can always increase their damage and lower ther ROF -> problem solved. No need to toy with an irrelevant module to do so. But, they don't, so they didn't, or they do and they will.
Same, if the devs feel that Cap-using weapons need to use less cap, they can always decrease it, without screwing with an even more irrelevant module. As before, they don't so they didn't, or they do and they will.
If the devs feel Amarr in general need a boost, they'll boost them. They do and they will as have been stated in preious blogs.

Don't fix what is by no means broken. Damage mods are among the best-balanced modules in the game, thank you very much. Instead, fix the damage and rof rigs so they can be used normally without stacknerfing to hell and back.

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Originally by: Starraker

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Edited by: Starraker on 30/04/2007 08:38:03
How would this change alfa strike so much? Like I said before, if you are in structure after the first volley now you will die after this change. HOw often did you get one volleyed into structure? And especially frigs will not have that problem because the hit quality is so bad on them. Just don't fly directly towards sniping BSs.

How would this boost minmatar over the other races via fitting reqs?

Why would this change affect the rig fitting properties of Ammar? ANd why would it be bad?

I agree they work OK. And all weapons are balanced unboosted. But I think it is wierd that Ammar and Gallente need to worry more about cap when they fit a module that has only positive effects for projectiles and missiles.

Maybe they should only change magstabs and heatsinks this way.
On second thought why not give magstabs and heatsinks a tiny cap use bonus in line with the increased use by the increased RoF.

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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So now if they did introduce this so that you had a rof module and a damage module, should they keep the original rof+damage module? for those who want both bonuses weaker but in one mod.

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Originally by: smallgreenblur

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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So now if they did introduce this so that you had a rof module and a damage module, should they keep the original rof+damage module? for those who want both bonuses weaker but in one mod.

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I don't think we should have a rof mod, just a damage mod and a rof rig. With equal dps there would be no reason to fit a rof damage mod, and it would be difficult to sort out stacking penalties on people filling lows with damage mods and rof mods. But if both come in then I should think getting rid of the original would be best for the same reason.

sgb

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Originally by: Sebroth

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Im not sure I would like it. Sure I would get a nice volly dmg from my 1400mm II but the rof would be insane without any rof bonus.

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Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly

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I think they upped the hitpoints for all ships for a reason. Drascticly increasing alpha strike would sorta counter that idea.

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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Edited by: Neuromandis on 29/04/2007 21:38:19On the other hand, very high alfa is completely UNFAIR to smaller ships. A boosting assault frigate that can tank your dps should not be able to be single-volleyed thus, denying it the chance to use its repping skills by a lucky blow

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Originally by: n0thing

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Originally by: smallgreenblur

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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So now if they did introduce this so that you had a rof module and a damage module, should they keep the original rof+damage module? for those who want both bonuses weaker but in one mod.

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I don't think we should have a rof mod, just a damage mod and a rof rig. With equal dps there would be no reason to fit a rof damage mod, and it would be difficult to sort out stacking penalties on people filling lows with damage mods and rof mods. But if both come in then I should think getting rid of the original would be best for the same reason.

sgb

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Wouldnt that bring more damage overall, with 3 boosted dmg mods and 3 rof rigs?

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Why not make seperate damage mods for each weapon type (arty mods and ac mods...pulse mods and beam mods...etc)

Would allow you to tweak each one without giving people crazy bonuses if the idea that a mod makes artillery too powerful.

More work...more tweaking...

Or - why do we have to increase the damage bonus proportional to the ROF loss if this were done? Why not just increase the damage bonus just a little bit instead of proportional?

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Originally by: Ghostshadow

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Edited by: Ghostshadow on 30/04/2007 17:37:33
I can't belive people are complaining about minmatar. What about Caldari? With tech 2 rage torps they could get 1200-1500 damage per torp RELIABLY, every time before resists.

7200-9000 damage volley?

Also, to the guy that said he already 1 volleys alot of smaller NPC ships so the ROF is more usefull. Just don't fire every launcher at once. If it takes 6 launchers to 1 volley it, only fire 4 launchers with this change, then the next 2 launchers at a diffren't target.

EDIT: that being said. I'm all for this idea, i like big pretty numbers

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Originally by: smallgreenblur

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Why not make seperate damage mods for each weapon type (arty mods and ac mods...pulse mods and beam mods...etc)

Would allow you to tweak each one without giving people crazy bonuses if the idea that a mod makes artillery too powerful.

More work...more tweaking...

Or - why do we have to increase the damage bonus proportional to the ROF loss if this were done? Why not just increase the damage bonus just a little bit instead of proportional?

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That works, if you make it so a ship with say 2 rof rigs on and 3 'new' damage mods on does the same dps as a ship with 3-4 damage mods on now.

sgb

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: smallgreenblur

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Why not make seperate damage mods for each weapon type (arty mods and ac mods...pulse mods and beam mods...etc)

Would allow you to tweak each one without giving people crazy bonuses if the idea that a mod makes artillery too powerful.

More work...more tweaking...

Or - why do we have to increase the damage bonus proportional to the ROF loss if this were done? Why not just increase the damage bonus just a little bit instead of proportional?

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That works, if you make it so a ship with say 2 rof rigs on and 3 'new' damage mods on does the same dps as a ship with 3-4 damage mods on now.

sgb

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So you nerf amarrs and gallente damage because they cant fit 2 RoF rigs like Minmatar can[not as easily at least]? Buff short range guns since they can be more easily boosted with rigs, which further diminishes amarrs range advantage?

It would be terrible.

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Originally by: smallgreenblur

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mmm I don't see where you are coming from on any of those points mate. Sorry.
sgb

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Originally by: smallgreenblur

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I'm still lost. Why do gallente get nerfed? And surely ammar are helped by a reduction in rof / increase in damage mod...

The bonus to minnies is in the alpha, and I think that is reasonable seeing as other races will get an equivilent boost.

sgb

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Originally by: n0thing

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Edited by: n0thing on 27/04/2007 17:24:05
Doubling damage bonus from damage mods and removing rof bonus will utterly bring 1400 IIs users to the very very top. Right now, as i seen, wrecks can reach around 2800 dmg on Hail L with maxed or semi-maxed skills. Now, assuming with that change a 3000 hit will be normal, we will see a Tempest doing up to 18 000 hp damage per one volley.

That will insta-pop anything but BS/CS class and even then only those that are tanked decently.

Seriosly...that would make ppl fly in one gank-arty setup 99% of the time.

EDIT: Not to mention that smaller ships need promoting not the opposite.

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Originally by: Jouno

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do you know what chance you have to hit a wrecking hit with all guns.... Do you even know what chance you have to hit for a wrecking on anything smaller then a bs.... I rest my case

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Originally by: Jouno

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first of all quake ammo is for artys, second do you know what chance you have to hit a wrecking hit with all guns.... Do you even know what chance you have to hit for a wrecking on anything smaller then a bs.... I rest my case

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Originally by: smallgreenblur

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Ah ok I see what you mean - amarr and gallente currently use their rigs in order to fit their guns, if you have to fit rof rigs then they lose out on the largest size category of guns.

Surely this just means that large ACs need more powergrid usage? (Doesn't bother me, I have about 6k powergrid left when fitting a full rack of 800mmIIs...)

sgb

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: smallgreenblur

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Ah ok I see what you mean - amarr and gallente currently use their rigs in order to fit their guns, if you have to fit rof rigs then they lose out on the largest size category of guns.

Surely this just means that large ACs need more powergrid usage? (Doesn't bother me, I have about 6k powergrid left when fitting a full rack of 800mmIIs...)

sgb

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Possibly, but i dont think its a great solution. A better solution would be to remove RoF mods of all types if such a change were made.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Possibly, but i dont think its a great solution. A better solution would be to remove RoF mods of all types if such a change were made.

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• slightly lower DPS, since most people won't use 6 low slots for three DPS+RoF mods


• more customisation possible


• damage and RoF rigs would be much more useful

Originally by: Ecky X

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Apparently some people were not really paying attention. Let me throw out some numbers.

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Originally by: Ecky X

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And after 12 seconds, that Maelstrom would be doing relatively poor dps.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You are entirely false.

Amarr do not rely on their tank to live, they rely on their range. Amarr ships that tank are amarr ships that get killed.

You cannot out-tank a Minmatar or Gallente ship of the same class while doing anywhere near similar damage. As well, since it benefits both of them to get close, the longer the battle is extended, the worse lasers do[for being close and having bad tracking as well as getting into the gallente/minmatar wheelhouse]. The cap use, being worse than blasters even at ship skill five is just another drop in the "what are you doing tanking" bucket.

Amarr rely on building a damage buffer by dealing DPS before their enemy does. This means this damage buffer needs to be as large as possible. It also means that the damage buffer doesnt nessesarrily need to be front loaded, because you are working on reasonably long term damage and not front loaded damage. The boost would help with cap use, and the front loaded damage isnt bad[in fact its good], but it isnt as important as weapon systems that rely on that front loaded damage. Most notably, blasters and Artillery.

Blasters not as much as arties, but once they get in range they need to put the hurt on asap[or they arent going to get over that damage buffer that amarr has built up]. Front loading damage increases this effect. Its a HUGE boost to neutron gank setups which have amasing volley damage already[a neutron gank hyperion would nearly has as much volley damage with neutrons with the change as a maelstrom would with arties at the moment(6% more alpha on the arties before the change, 38% after), neutron gank megathrons are more likly to be seen, but the prodigious volley damage of the Hyp wouldnt be something impressive to behold(avg volley dmg[after hit quality calculations, which have been definitivly figured out now] would be about 6332)]

And blasters would get the same cap use benefit out of it that lasers would.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: smallgreenblur

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mmm I don't see where you are coming from on any of those points mate. Sorry.
sgb

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If you set 3x DMG mod +2x RoF rigs = current 3x dmg mod

Then Amarr and Gallente get nerfed, amarr hardest. In fact if you remove the RoF part of damage mods, no matter how you look at it you hurt amarr/gallente and boost minmatar.

2x falloff rigs = 10.25% more powergrid use on guns at the minimum.

Amarr and gallente are the two races which are able to field those increased powergrid costs less.

It would make lower damage weapons do more damage than higher damage weapons because you cant afford the powergrid on the higher damage weapons.

This is a boost to gallente and minmatar, who lose the least amount of range on dropping their weapons since they can get the higher damage at the least cost.

Which leaves amarr, in order to get back into par[for DPS] with the other two, taking the worst penalties. Both in terms of damage[since they have the worst drop in RAW dps between their teirs], in range[since they have the worst drop in range between their teirs], and in effectiveness since they need DPS and Range more than the other two races.[if you want, i can explain, but it has to do with not being able to compete with Minmatar or Gallente when tanking in the close range, such amarr depend on a damage buffer that is applied before opponents can close]

Minmatar would get the boost more or less free. Gallente would have to expend some tank, and Amarr would be shafted.

It may or may not boost caldari[since i dont know how much spare CPU they have after fitting launchers and how much they would have to compromise to do so].

If you give amarr and gallente stronger dmg mods so they dont need the RoF rigs then you will have minmatar complaining that their ships cost 30m more to get the same DPS as the others, and complaining that gallente and amarr can gain more from fitting RoF rigs if they do choose to take the pg hit.

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Originally by: Angus McLean

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You misunderstood me, sorry about that. I meant Amarr are supposed to rely on their tanks. In current game mechanics they rely on a lot of things, and most of them tend to fail within the first 45 seconds of fighting.

With that said, with the proposed changes and upgrades to Amarr would hopefully take less turrets which = less cap which means capacitor would mainly only be used by tank.

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Originally by: Angus McLean

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As far as arty's go, I understand where your coming from Guoumindong, higher alpha would be killer. Especially since minmatar already got a slight boost in the last patch.

But surely they can think of a way to implement this whilst still keeping Alpha fairly reasonable. This in itself would solve quite a few cap issues currently with Amarr, and less turrets = more guns is always nice. (Less ammo ftw anyone?).

The issue I'm seeing with this project, is that the less turrets you need, the more high slots available. The more high slots available..the more nos gets used. And thus we recreate a pending issue the Dev's (and most of the player base) are trying to kill.

Until nos gets its rightful nerf, I dont want to see something like this implemented.

Example: Megathron with 7 guns. If the megathron can now do the same damage as it used to with 3.5 guns, whos to say it wont fit nos in the rest of the slots to keep its tank running? Then you have a great gank, and still a great tank.

And the final issue with this, is that it would free up far too much powergrid for oversized plates or modules.

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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Why would RoF rigs be mandatory? What are you saying? Is it that minmatar can use RoF rigs to bring their ships up to the what would be the pre-nerfed stats adn would take less of a PG hit cause of their less demanding guns?

How is that an argument?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Angus McLean

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You misunderstood me, sorry about that. I meant Amarr are supposed to rely on their tanks. In current game mechanics they rely on a lot of things, and most of them tend to fail within the first 45 seconds of fighting.

With that said, with the proposed changes and upgrades to Amarr would hopefully take less turrets which = less cap which means capacitor would mainly only be used by tank.

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No. Amarr are not supposed to rely on their tanks. If they were supposed to rely on their tanks, Pulse Lasers would be a high damage, low range, high tracking weapon with low cap use instead of a high range, low damage, low tracking weapon, with high cap use. This is one of the major reasons the Harbinger doesnt completly suck[thuough i would classify it personally as the worst of the teir 2 bcs], and why the Geddon is actualy good, because their bonuses are alligned with the nature of lasers, which is to do damage before the opponent can close.


If what you are concerned about is cap use, you can simple add a "reduction in cap use" equal to the RoF bonus of the damage mod and be done with it[this would be 11.7% cap use reduction to offset the 10.5% RoF boosts increase]. Its not a stacking penalized bonus so Amarr and Gallente would actualy lose cap use by fitting more than 1 damage mod.

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 02/05/2007 02:11:45
Quickfit allows you to create mods. I've removed the RoF bonus and doubled the damage mod, this is what the damage is for this:

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Originally by: Angus McLean

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lasers were awesome 2 years ago!

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Angus McLean

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lasers were awesome 2 years ago!

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No, lasers have always been low damage

Similarly setup up blaster ships would always do more raw DPS than a similarly setup laser ship.

Why? Becuase lasers were low damage and blasters were high damage.

What lasers were, were high RANGE.

Anything could reach 2000+ DPS, lasers or no, what the issue was was that nothing could do it as far as lasers could.

Here is an example.

Suppose lasers do 10 dps and blaseters do 20 dps and ships have 20 hit points. It takes 10 seconds to close between the laser optimal and the blaster optimal.

The laser destroyes the blaster user in 2 seconds and the blaster user never gets to use their guns.

But that does not mean that lasers were high damage, only that the game balance was tilted towards high range and not high damage, and at a typical engagement start position where battles were tilted towards range because relative hit points were so low lasers had the best tracking and best damage

But again, that does not mean they were high damage, high tracking, low range weapons. It means they were high range, low damage weapons in a system that favored range and not damage.

The nature of lasers hasnt changed, nor has anything else, the advantage that range has over damage has been reduced. Amarr still wins battles by applying the same method, when they dont apply that method, they lose battles.

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Originally by: Angus McLean

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Blasters are the highest damaging, that was never in question. But also keep in mind that Pulses are the second most damaging, so dont put them off too quickly. Also note Heavy Pulse lasers do more than all the other blasters except Neutrons. Which are much much harder to fit on a Gallente gank ship than Heavy pulses are on an Amarr gank ship. (Higher base Powergrid.)

Even then it coincides with Amarr philosophy of Heavy tanks and Hard hitting lasers. Not the heaviest hitting weapons, but still has the heaviest tanks. (Or should have rather.)

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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Edited by: Cpt Branko on 02/05/2007 10:28:43
It would make minmatar kill you, because:
2x damage mod (new) + 2x ROF rig (provided damage mod has a higher damage bonus to compensate for no ROF bonus) would mean the two following things:
(a) more overall damage for ROF rig users as 2xrof+ 2xdamage mod(new) now (because damage modifier and rof modifier stack separately) give more DPS then 4xdamage mods *as they are now* (due to stacking).
(b) I can mount the RoF rigs on my ACs (as I use mid/low tier which outpreforms the high tier), you can't because you can't cope with the PG penalities RoF rigs impose.
(c) Amarr/Gallente have more cap to tank, but they need to tank more damage, because overall damage has increased (see a), while their isn't (can't afford the PG requirements), negating any advantage they get.

Is it so hard to understand why this is a *bad* idea?
This is just a boost Minmatar thread. Do the math yourself, and don't ignore powergrid considerations.

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Originally by: Docain

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The balancing problem could easily be solved: just split the damage mods up and give them separate stacking penalties. For example, one T2 RoF mod would give +10.5% rate of fire and one T2 dmg mod would give +10% dmg. In the end 3x RoF mod and 3x damage mod would have the same effect on alpha strike and DPS as three of the current dmg mods.
The consequences would be:

• slightly lower DPS, since most people won't use 6 low slots for three DPS+RoF mods


• more customisation possible


• damage and RoF rigs would be much more useful

On the other hand this could devalue these mods in general, causing pilots to fit other modules like armor tank stuff.

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