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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Stukkler Tian
Space Hobos LLC.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.14 19:47:00 -
[781] - Quote
1) Thank you for the mid on the retribution. I am a bit worried about a optimal and tracking boost on a laser ship. Scorch plus the ability to swap to muliti in a second make this ship dangerous from all ranges when you give it a tracking boost. 2) Prom its a bad idea to go head to head with Wensly on anything concerning any frigate. 3) Not to worried about the mwd boost. it is kind of annoying that they could not think of something that benefits everyone but hey I cant either. I will still be fitting abs on my afs the same as i do my interceptors. 4) (correct me if IGÇÖm wrong) but I thought i read that a boost to null(ammo) will be released at the same time as the next patch this combined with a web will make the enyo pretty ridiculous. Great damage Great Tracking and now with range control and the ability to hit at that range. 5) to the people complaining about the wolf not getting a mid, falloff..falloff..falloff 6) Afs are hard to kill in bigger ships....when you donGÇÖt have webs neuts or small drones. oddly enough t1 frigs are hard to kill without those things as well.
My final verdict (for what little its worth)- Mid on the Retribution was necessary, the mwd sig reduction necessary (0.0 people cry about everything), everything else seems like a bit much. I fly assault frigs pretty regularly and I never feel like they are underpowered.(note-I dont fly ugly missile spewing shield tank boats named after birds)
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Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
124
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Posted - 2012.01.14 19:54:00 -
[782] - Quote
"Role bonus" is a poor choice of words. It should be called "Tracking formula band aid fix" and then maybe we wouldn't have all these posts with silly fantasies about how AFs are going to replace interceptors. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
86
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Posted - 2012.01.14 20:29:00 -
[783] - Quote
Quote:1) Thank you for the mid on the retribution. I am a bit worried about a optimal and tracking boost on a laser ship. Scorch plus the ability to swap to muliti in a second make this ship dangerous from all ranges when you give it a tracking boost. It is however tremendously cap dependant and lacks both a second mid and good speed, so range dictation can be difficult.
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Prometheus Exenthal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
81
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Posted - 2012.01.14 20:30:00 -
[784] - Quote
lol now now, wensley and i are both excellent frig pilots in our own right CSM Alternate & PVP Samurai www.promsrage.com |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
86
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Posted - 2012.01.14 20:36:00 -
[785] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:"Role bonus" is a poor choice of words. It should be called "Tracking formula band aid fix" and then maybe we wouldn't have all these posts with silly fantasies about how AFs are going to replace interceptors. But AFs are getting an MWD buff! That makes them like interceptors, so they'll replace them! Never mind the fact interceptors are 2-3x as fast with better scan res and tackle mod bonuses! |
Cuko
AZOIK FLEET AZOIK EMPIRE
5
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Posted - 2012.01.14 20:50:00 -
[786] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Quote:1) Thank you for the mid on the retribution. I am a bit worried about a optimal and tracking boost on a laser ship. Scorch plus the ability to swap to muliti in a second make this ship dangerous from all ranges when you give it a tracking boost. It is however tremendously cap dependant and lacks both a second mid and good speed, so range dictation can be difficult.
The Retribution can perma run weapon systems and micro-warp drive now. You are able to add other modules to increase velocity without effecting damage output that much. With these changes. It still runs for a very long time with a warp disruptor active (something like 2 min +). Ship can max out @ 2,900m/sec and do 160 with scorch. It will go slower if u decide to gank fit it.
-proxyyyy
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Prometheus Exenthal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
81
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Posted - 2012.01.14 20:54:00 -
[787] - Quote
You make it sound like the Retribution can't already do that (without a point) If that were so amazing then people would be flying them like that all over the place. Fact of the matter is that such a fit will get eaten a Combat Interceptor or Navy ship.
CSM Alternate & PVP Samurai www.promsrage.com |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
120
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Posted - 2012.01.14 21:00:00 -
[788] - Quote
I like the idea of an AB bonus better. It suits the ships (they seem to want to be slow, high-dps, tanky frigates) by improving their ability to tank and engage larger opponents while leaving intercepting to the interceptors. |
Cuko
AZOIK FLEET AZOIK EMPIRE
5
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Posted - 2012.01.14 21:04:00 -
[789] - Quote
+1 Thread |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
87
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Posted - 2012.01.14 21:50:00 -
[790] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:I like the idea of an AB bonus better. It suits the ships (they seem to want to be slow, high-dps, tanky frigates) by improving their ability to tank and engage larger opponents while leaving intercepting to the interceptors. You're new to this game aren't you? And this thread for that matter.
AB bonus has been tried and tested - and it was completely broken. It's not viable, simple as. |
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Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
189
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Posted - 2012.01.14 22:06:00 -
[791] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Stuff about an AB bonus. We're 38 pages in, and this still needs to be reiterated for people? Dear god. Quote:A 25% AB bonus would be fairly harmless, but still useful. Not really, no. As has been stated dozens of times across this thread, there is no middle ground on an AB buff. It's either overpowered, or useless. 25% bonus is useless.
How about 37.5%? I'm a pirate in a pirate's body.-áIntelligence shouldn't be free... |
Prometheus Exenthal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
81
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Posted - 2012.01.14 22:25:00 -
[792] - Quote
They'd still remain slower than cruisers, and therefore useless for most cases, and overpowered in the rest. CSM Alternate & PVP Samurai www.promsrage.com |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
87
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Posted - 2012.01.14 22:39:00 -
[793] - Quote
It's been stated and restated a good dozen times now. I'll put it simply:
Any AB bonus is completely binary - either it's not enough, and it remains pointless - or it's enough, and is horrendously overpowered. There is no middle ground. |
Ninevite
Shiva White Noise.
11
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Posted - 2012.01.14 22:42:00 -
[794] - Quote
So the point of the role bonus is to make AFs more usable in big fleets, though if I was going to take a t2 frigate for the purpose of tackling in a fleet I would just take an inty. Or am I missing something? It's not like AFs can be really of any use for DPS output in bigger engagements |
Stukkler Tian
Space Hobos LLC.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.14 22:46:00 -
[795] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote: It is however tremendously cap dependant and lacks both a second mid and good speed, so range dictation can be difficult.
Im assuming by second mid you mean 3rd for a web, You are right it will not be able to dictate range. I dont think this will matter as it can be equally effective at and range between 1-20km. The cap dependency is a more resonable counter, dependency being the key word. It is not going to cap out very quickly on its own but neuts especially on bigger ships will give it alot of problems. Im still not sure if a single small neut will be enough to really eat up the massive capacitor of the ship.
Prom I was in no way trying to suggest that you were inferior to Wensly, your record speaks for itself. However you must agree that he is the professor of all things frigate.
Edit: Also the last thing any ship needs is a boost to ab speed. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
87
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Posted - 2012.01.14 22:52:00 -
[796] - Quote
Quote:Im assuming by second mid you mean 3rd for a web Oops. I should not post when tired. |
Stukkler Tian
Space Hobos LLC.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.14 23:16:00 -
[797] - Quote
no worries my brain works the same way, cut out one mid because almost everything needs a prop |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
205
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Posted - 2012.01.15 00:33:00 -
[798] - Quote
The Jaguar needs 10 more CPU and 200 more shield hit points. |
Axel Greye
Nova Ardour
46
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Posted - 2012.01.15 01:41:00 -
[799] - Quote
The Hawk needs 1 more Ishkur to chew on Prometheus. |
Prometheus Exenthal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
81
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Posted - 2012.01.15 08:10:00 -
[800] - Quote
>< CSM Alternate & PVP Samurai www.promsrage.com |
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Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
205
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Posted - 2012.01.15 16:24:00 -
[801] - Quote
Hopefully we get a dev update tomorrow. CCP Tallest is a man of few words - but there aren't that many more shopping days before the 24th. |
Axel Greye
Nova Ardour
47
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Posted - 2012.01.15 16:30:00 -
[802] - Quote
Best start selling those caldari navy invulns. |
Ninevite
Shiva White Noise.
11
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Posted - 2012.01.15 21:30:00 -
[803] - Quote
As my question went unanswered, I am asking it again:
So the point of the role bonus is to make AFs more usable in big fleets, though if I was going to take a t2 frigate for the purpose of tackling in a fleet I would just take an inty. Or am I missing something? It's not like AFs can be really of any use for DPS output in bigger engagements |
m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
90
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Posted - 2012.01.15 22:07:00 -
[804] - Quote
Ninevite wrote:As my question went unanswered, I am asking it again:
So the point of the role bonus is to make AFs more usable in big fleets, though if I was going to take a t2 frigate for the purpose of tackling in a fleet I would just take an inty. Or am I missing something? It's not like AFs can be really of any use for DPS output in bigger engagements
Ninevite wrote:As my question went unanswered, I am asking it again:
So the point of the role bonus is to make AFs more usable in big fleets, though if I was going to take a t2 frigate for the purpose of tackling in a fleet I would just take an inty. Or am I missing something? It's not like AFs can be really of any use for DPS output in bigger engagements
warning flood of words below:
Retribution, will be able to do alot of damage and have the effective hit-points of a cruiser. So, anything that would be able to pop it. Would be able to do the same to a Vagabond. Same with the Harpy. Those 2 ships are able to field large tanks and do 200 + damage 20k or more. The Jaguar can be set-up like a interceptor and can mitigate alot of damage threw sig alone (wolf too). However it can have a large tank while doing so and out damage most combat interceptors. all assault frigates that are able to go 1900 or more. With heat! Can Mitigate damage like a interceptor. With gang-links it can be pretty insane. Try them in a gang v gang fight of 20 pilots (10 on each side, 2 logi on each side). Logistics can rep them easy.
They're alot more difficult to engage, with my Rupture unlike before in the past. Not so much with afterburner, because I would just kite, but I almost always had to go in if I wanted to explode z ship (armour rupture v ab assault frigates). I use 2 small neuts so it does shut down sh!t, if they have no cap boosters. However, not so much of a help when they have massive buffer tanks. Against ships like the wolf. Scram goes offf and on. Hwoever still able to do alot of damage to the rupture and stay alive.
P much the Ishkur, Hawk, Jaguar, Wolf, Vengeance. Are very difficult to destroy with afterbuners. With mwd. You can remove the Wolf from there. Using these ships against none close range ships like a Cynabal or Vagabond is murder. IF you can catch them you win. If you cant you leave in a mwd set-up. Same with Battle-cruisers like the Hurricane and Harbinger. The Hurricane is tougher. However it often ends up with the assault frigate winning depending on how you set-up the ships above. These assault frigates changes make them not as squishy as they're now.
Drake is still good in web range for the most part. However, not against some of these. Dual web Hurricane with neuts still pwn them though. That is what it takes tbh. For larger ships. It takes dual webs and dual neuts to STOMP these super flies.
With that said. If pilots make glass cannon damage setups. They will pop as fast as they do now. More well rounded setups are very dangerous. So are heavy tanked setups.
Anyhow, fock this thread....
Keep on trying CCPTallest
-proxyyyy |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
205
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Posted - 2012.01.15 23:14:00 -
[805] - Quote
Frigates are skirmish ships. You will see them alot more on roams and small fleet actions. Interceptors and now AF might show up in large fleet actions but a good FC will hold them in reserve until it looks like the opponent is making a run for it - then unleash the hounds to get points as they can. You don't usually see the "I was there" crap. |
Prometheus Exenthal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
81
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Posted - 2012.01.16 00:25:00 -
[806] - Quote
For the record, against an MWD fit AF you dont need dual webs. Blasters & ACs can track them reasonably well up close, and drones do hurt a fair bit. For those of you who want better tracking or use lasers, tracking implants are dirt cheap, as are rigs & drugs.
Neuts will ruin ANY AFs day, and they won't be able to maintain an active tank. Only the Vengeance can be exempt from this. However, if an AF is running an injector & mwd, any cruiser with web/scram is faster and can pull range to shred them. AB fits remain unchanged, and if they can catch the Cruiser, stand a very good chance of winning (like they do now on TQ).
And Proxyyy, you're entire first paragraph is false, or at the very least, highly exaggerated. It's very difficult for the AFs to actually have a Cruiser-sized tank. The average hitpoints is somewhere around 11-12k effective hitpoints, with the larger of the omni tanks being the Retribution & Vengeance. The AFs have strong T2 resistances against their nemsis race, that's about it.
As for the ranged damage dealing, they are not what you imply. A Retribution can't do 200dps @ 20+km without being paper thin, especially with an MWD. The Harpy can do 200dps @ that range as well, but like every other AF at that range, will be swatted out of the sky for even attempting something so foolish. ALL of these ships are capable of said feats on TQ right now.
And in regard to the Jaguar, you have been so consistently wrong about this ship I don't know why you keep posting about it. Not only is it (currently) the lowest damage ship of the lot (on sisi), but it also has the worst range projection, tank, and (at range) tracking. The only thing it has going for it right now is the speed, and even when nanofit is STILL much slower than an Interceptor and would be absolutely obliterated by a Crow or Raptor (the *worst* interceptors).
And on one last note, they are not easily repped by logistics. If you're in an engagement large enough to actually require logistics the AFs would have very little to gain. If a fleet wants your AF dead, they will assign a couple webs to it (possibly paint it) and alpha through what little HP you have. These are still frigates, and if someone wants them dead, they will pop like frigates.
Please, stop posting such nonsense you uninformed cretin. CSM Alternate & PVP Samurai www.promsrage.com |
Zarnak Wulf
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
205
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Posted - 2012.01.16 01:31:00 -
[807] - Quote
Prom - any news on a dev update soon? |
Stukkler Tian
Space Hobos LLC.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.16 02:15:00 -
[808] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote: would be absolutely obliterated by a Crow or Raptor (the *worst* interceptors).
the crow is actually a very dangerous intercepter when flown properly standard missle fits are brutal vs other kiters and very effective against other frigates. also it has one of the best targeting ranges of combat cepters wich is a huge advantage. I know its off topic but people moaning about the crow is a pet peeve of mine. the raptor is indeed awful . Everything else you said is true though i stand by my previous statement that this buff is a bit to much. |
m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
90
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Posted - 2012.01.16 02:20:00 -
[809] - Quote
You're p dumb. What are you on about? Do you even know? Guess someone who's ******** wouldn't. You're so deluded it's unbelievable. The first question I would ask someone if I'm not aware of what they're referencing. Would be. What set-ups are you using? ****** brought up active defence set-ups. Those were never mentioned in my post @ all. There were multiple uses of the word afterburner and situations in which micro-warp drives are used. To easy, for a player to just go back in this thread and see @tleast some of the set-ups I quickly posted and have used. Do you have a learning disability? Are you incapable of basic comprehension? I made one serious none plain written post and it seems you're not able to understand that. Maybe you should go back to using crayons and crazy glue.
With these changes assault frigate:
-You're able to field significant buffer tanks. Whether shield or armour hit-points. FACT
-Assault frigates are able to mitigate significant damage actively (armour or shield). FACT
-The role bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty. Is equivalent to Interceptor skill @ 4. FACT
-@ 3,000m/sec and above (with or without heat). Assault frigates absorb 10 - 35% more damage (Hurricane) than a Interceptor would. With 200% more effective hit-points. When inducing transversal.
With these changes. How assault frigate interact with other frigates and other classes in are current environment is difficult to foresee. However, if warp scambler did not disable micro-warp drives. What would be the difference between 50% bonus to afterburner velocity and 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty. Assault frigates with 40m Signature radius. Going @ 1,500m/sec or a 120m Signature radius assault frigate, with a velocity of 2,200m/sec. Answer = warp scrambler turning off a micro-warp drive and 49% more damage taken (under-perfect conditions) from a general shield-Hurricane. In perfect condition (heh!). Around the same ability Interceptors have to mitigate damage now. With Interceptor Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in micro-warp drive signature radius penalty per level. Even if a assault frigate where taking 50% more damage. Most are able to field 200% more effective hit-points of Interceptors @ warp disruptor range (24-28km). Which is the Operation range of most ships.
Just screwing around on SISI with these. They're P OP. Once optimal set-ups have been settled on by the player base. There will most likely be 3 options: Damage/glass cannon, hit-point stacking or active defence. Some ships like the Harpy and Retribution have the option to kite (skirmish). Some will have the ability to dictate range within warp scrambler range (Jaguar, Hawk, Harpy (x2 stasis webifier)). I suppose you could also set-up these ships up like Interceptors (one or 2 overdrive injectors) and lose some damage and defence, but still be able to school all Interceptors.
-proxyyyy |
Prometheus Exenthal
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
81
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Posted - 2012.01.16 05:04:00 -
[810] - Quote
An AF can do all those things, yes, but not at once.
For some reason you fantasize about scrams not disabling MWDs, which is just silly since there has been no talk or even hinting that such a change would ever take place. Your right, there would be no huge difference, but the fact is that scrams disable MWDs. On top of that, no AF can MWD and tackle without severe capacitor issues, let alone maintain an active tank.
You also (for some reason) try to factor in 3000m/s as if the AFs can easily attain that. Fact of the matter is that only the Jag can do it without crippling it's setup, and then the Jag is still slower than any Interceptor and still retains all the terrible cap issues that Interceptors do not. The only way they can achieve such speed is via fully specced Loki links and/or Snakes, both of which benefit Interceptors more.
AFs could always mitigate large amounts of damage via active tank. It's be said several times prior to this post. The only ship that has gained a notable increase in tank is the Harpy. The rest don't gain anything significant over their current TQ counterparts.
And to use your own example, a standard shield Hurricane would have two medium neutralizers. AFs in tackle range of such a Hurricane would be gasping for cap, never mind avoiding all it's damage.
Once again, stated over and over and over. AFs will not replace Interceptors, and have no means to get tackle on them. The AFs are no more agile than they are on TQ, and they are no faster. If an AF manages to get tackle on an Interceptor, it's because the pilot screwed up.
And as for your setups, they were discredited from the time you posted them. Injected MWD fits only work to serve very few purposes. One is e-peen and amusement, and the other is for tight niche pvp. Neither of which is desirable over comparative setups that work in more than one scenario. Every single one of those is cap sensitive and without being able to web, slower than every Cruiser.
Yes, we get it, links are powerful. Links are (imo) too powerful. But everything you claim to make the ships overpowered can easily be applied to another class to disprove your one-sided theories. My nano-Deimos does 430dps @ 25km while permaburning @ 3k with snakes and links. We'd better nerf HACs too, right?
You seem to be the one ignoring information, Proxyyyy. You're trying to argue in a vacuum with one-sided testing. Heck, the other day I saw someone testing a fit similar to yours, and the person was complaining about losing tackle on an Omen because he was too slow without a web.
I mean, I asked you to put together an *Intercepting-AF* without the use of faction/officer modules, T2 rigs, links & pirate implants. You've yet to present your case but you keep spouting off these fishbowl statistics. I know they can be made, but they remain inferior to combat Interceptors.
You spend too much time failing to prove a point and just end up looking like a ponce. FACT
@Stukkler That's why I put the asterisks around the word worst. I know the Crow & Raptor are capable ships, but they're widely acknowledged as the worst of the bunch. The Crow lost much of its bite before Quantum Rise, and the Raptor is generally inferior to the Taranis & Ares. Not bad ships on their own, just comparatively. CSM Alternate & PVP Samurai www.promsrage.com |
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