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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.19 23:06:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 19/01/2004 23:07:46 It is interesting that missiles are getting looked at for a nerf with stated reasons like, "It only takes two cruise missiles to kill a frigate." While that may well be true a frigate can do a lot to protect itself from those missiles with either Defenders or Smartbombs or maybe even outrunning the chasing missile.
Anyone ever see how fast drones kill frigates? It's absurd it is so fast. What's more...there is very little you can do to defend yourself from them.
Target and shoot them? Like you have the time. They take forever to target and you usually have 6, 8 or more to deal with. In a frig given the range of your guns it is just silly. You'll be lucky to kill 2 before you die.
Smartbombs? Not a chance. A microsmartbomb does nowhere near enough damage to kill them quickly enough. Not to mention you have to essentially be in the drone's optimal range to use it on them. You WILL die if you try this stunt. Even a more heavily shielded cruiser with medium smartbombs will take a helluva bloody nose trying to make that work if not simply die as well.
Missiles? Maybe but with the proposed missile nerfs this probably goes out the window too. The only missile that was much use against drones was a torpedo as its splash range could get several. Splash range was nerfed and generally frigates can't carry torps anyway. So it is cruise missiles then. Of course, a standard launcher only carries one cruise missile so you will be reloading a lot and you have 8 drones chasing you. But wait! The proposed coming nerf to cruise missiles will see them not able to catch a frigate as the firgate is too agile. So how is it that missiles will shoot down drones? Answer...they won't. Or you go to rockets and try and hit each drone several times...times 8 drones.
If drones can act as autonomous killing machines then people should have an automatic way to shoot them down. The obvious answer would seem to be Defender missiles. 1 hit = 1 kill. Remember, Defenders only have a 10km range and most ships don't have enough launchers (not to mention actually having Defenders in them) to nail all 8 before they get close so some drones will get their shots in.
I have asked numerous people the best way to fight drones and the answer I invariably get is, "Kill the command ship, ignore the drones beyond trying to not let them get close."
It would be nice to have a reasonable means to fight drones. It would allow a possible way to crash a gate camp where 2 or more ships hover over the JIP with 16+ drones out. Of course, the lag in that situation is horrendous (and this would make it worse) but a ship like a Raven or Caracal could pop through and let Defenders fly clearing out the drones for follow-on ships. Yes...the Raven might die doing that and especially the Caracal probably would but it is a tactic and in a fleet engagement it may be a very worthwhile tactic.
Be fun to see if nothing else.
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Darkwolf
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Posted - 2004.01.19 23:24:00 -
[2]
All well and good, but seriously, do you think it's a fair trade that a single Defender worth 110 isk can take out a heavy drone worth 100,000 isk?
Never mind that heavy drones cost the same amount as a frigate. Each. And require more skills to use than a frigate does. And are slower than frigates. And can't shoot as far. And can't sensor jam.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.19 23:37:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 19/01/2004 23:42:13
Quote: All well and good, but seriously, do you think it's a fair trade that a single Defender worth 110 isk can take out a heavy drone worth 100,000 isk?
Never mind that heavy drones cost the same amount as a frigate. Each. And require more skills to use than a frigate does. And are slower than frigates. And can't shoot as far. And can't sensor jam.
Sorry to hear your drones can't do all the things a frigate can do. They aren't enough as is? Yes they have a shorter range but I've seen them start shooting and hitting from 12km away. When they get close they can do more damage than most anything out there. Five Ogres do what? 200 points of damage every 2 seconds?
In real life a $15,000 Stinger missile can shoot down a $50,000,000 airplane. Stingers can be operated by any nimrod with a few minutes of training vs. the years the pilot had to train. What is so odd about a cheap Defender taking out a drone? Technically I can shoot down drones with a few well placed rail shots that are cheaper to shoot than Defenders. A laser ship can shoot them down for free.
Unless you are facing a Caracal with 5 assault launchers you will still see drones getting in there and doing damage and more often than not you'll face ships with only 1, 2 or maybe 3 launchers and likely not assault launchers and likely not all loaded with Defenders. The Drones will have a real chance still at the target ship...they just won't be as devastating as they are now.
The point is there is no real way to defend well against a drone attack short of running away. The game is more fun when there is balance. I don't see the balance here unless you or someone else can show how drones are all too easily taken out as it stands today.
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.01.19 23:41:00 -
[4]
HEAVY DRONES = FRIGATES Get that into your heads, then you can stop complaining about 8 drones destroying your little frigates.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |

Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.01.19 23:42:00 -
[5]
Drones make frigates useless except for frigates that can fire cruise missles. There is no way in hell a frigate can close in 5km on a battleship without being blown to smithereens by a heavy drone.. ------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |

Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.19 23:48:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 19/01/2004 23:57:16
Quote: HEAVY DRONES = FRIGATES Get that into your heads, then you can stop complaining about 8 drones destroying your little frigates.
That's fine.
What's the point? That the game shouldn't have balance? That a Thorax equates to a single ship aircraft carrier that also has the offensive punch of a cruiser all in one ship?
I didn't say to nerf drones directly. I merely want a reasonable answer to fight against them. Depending on ship confiuration and loadout I can should have the option. Right now it is frankly easier to handle frigates for me than it is to handle drones and if missiles get nerfed such that they can't hit frigates (and one would presume a smaller and even more nimble drone is even harder to hit) what little chance I ever had against drones is utterly gone.
Actually...how is it all ALL reasonable that drones equate to frigates within the confines of the game? It makes no sense whatsoever.
If you don't like the Defender idea then maybe a 'disruptor' missile that shuts down all drones within, say, a 1km radius for 15 seconds. The disruptor missile would be worthless against anything else and your drones would come back to life meaning they are still a threat that can't be forgotten. Just an idea...
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.01.20 00:30:00 -
[7]
Mon Palae,
You make some good points. I'm convinced. An automated defense against drones is definitely warranted --- you are 100% correct that they are 10x the threat to a frigate than any missile is. I especially like the idea about defender missiles being utilized against drones. I mean, why not? If they can be automatically employed against missiles, which are far smaller than any drone, why wouldn't it be able to target a drone?
As far as dalman's ignorant comment is concerned (about drones = frigates or some such rubbish) that is just not the case. In terms of EVE lore, the unmanned drone was employed as a replacement for the manned fighter craft. They pack similar firepower to a low-end frigate (say, a Condor), but they are far weaker.
Defenders being used against drones is definitely an answer to the obvious imbalance.
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Teeth
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Posted - 2004.01.20 00:35:00 -
[8]
just make ECM burst work correctly against drones.
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Darkwolf
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Posted - 2004.01.20 01:29:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Darkwolf on 20/01/2004 01:31:15
Quote: just make ECM burst work correctly against drones.
Now that is an effective suggestion! Well done, that man.
ECM bursts were intended to be the answer to light frigates and drones. At the moment, they're cactus because they don't have a continuous effect. Fix them to have a continuous effect, and suddenly drones aren't so vicious against frigates anymore.
Oh, and you don't have your BS pilot losing his 100k drones to 100 isk missiles, they just don't do much for him.
About the "but a cheapo Sidewinder can shoot down a costly airplane", think about this. There's no such thing as "balance" in real life. You know why? Because it's not a game!
Same reason why your average joe keels over from one bullet, but in a game, you can absorb several. Realism ain't fun. Semi-realism with balance is.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.20 03:47:00 -
[10]
Quote: About the "but a cheapo Sidewinder can shoot down a costly airplane", think about this. There's no such thing as "balance" in real life. You know why? Because it's not a game!
Same reason why your average joe keels over from one bullet, but in a game, you can absorb several. Realism ain't fun. Semi-realism with balance is.
You were on about how is it 'fair' to have a cheap missile kill an expensive drone. I answered that and FWIW as I said a laser ship can kill one for free.
I agree it is a game and will never truly emulate real life nor should it. I'm all for the "semi-realism with balance". If you are making the claim everything is well balanced now in regards to drones I'm curious to hear it. Obviously my opinion differs but I'm keeping an open mind.
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Black Drake
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Posted - 2004.01.20 03:55:00 -
[11]
Whats the diffrence between 8 drones and 3 tachyons?
8 heavy drones take out a frigate pirate in 3-4 vollies but so can 3-4 shots of a tachyon.
Not that I dont agree with you, but perhaps a diffrent missle such as an EMP burst that temoratily disables drones within a 5k radius or whatnot.
Defenders are hard enough to use as-is, no need to throw another 8 targets into the fray =P
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Dragon Ramirez
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Posted - 2004.01.20 04:10:00 -
[12]
Why not make defenders able to disable drones... the size of the drone effects the time it’s disabled for: eg. Scout drones, significant damage and disabled for a long time (maybe 20-30secs), with a decreasing scale of dmg/disabling time as the drones get bigger...
This still gives frigate pilots a fighting chance, and also reduces the chances of drone users having to replace drones after every battle...
----------------------------------------------- No trees were harmed in the making of this message, but some electrons were inconvenienced. |

Cabadrin
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Posted - 2004.01.20 04:43:00 -
[13]
Remember the tutorial? you can disable drones already with a good amount of damage. If a defender would disable a drone until it was scooped into the drone bay and deployed that would work well in a fight. As a Thorax pilot I know exactly how deadly drones can be - I killed a Moa the other day with my drones. he got 5 of the 8 ogres but died in the process. -----------------------------------------------
Coalition Kill Board |

Lansfear
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Posted - 2004.01.20 05:43:00 -
[14]
Quote: just make ECM burst work correctly against drones.
Sounds good but drone lock on time is fast, real fast. As soon as you strike at their master again, they'll auto attack.
After seeing how frigates can dance around missles and how blasters can't track the buggers, drones are realy the only good defense against frigates. SB's are nice, but all the pilot has to do is orbit at 7.5km and hit the AB.
I'm a hardcore frigate pilot and i hate to say it, but drones vs frigates are fine the way it is. But that defender missle idea is killer. You've got my vote.
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.01.20 05:59:00 -
[15]
It is in my impression that FoF missiles (lights and heavies) can take out attacking drones.
_______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.20 06:03:00 -
[16]
Yall do realize the downside of making defenders target drones, right?
Defenders go after the nearest incoming missile. If changed to include drones, that would make the defenders on cruisers and ships spoofed by drone clouds. Opening a path for torps and cruise missiles to slam into your ship.
On second thought, go for it.
/emoteeyes the 4 racks of cruise missiles + huge drone bay on the Typhoon 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |

ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.01.20 06:39:00 -
[17]
I think enough is enough when it comes to balancing frigs against battleships.
Frigs DO have a purpose. I see frigs being used EVERYDAY by our opponents in curse, and to be frank, they do a damn good job integrating them into their fleets. Don't tell me they aren't being used, because, they are.
Yes they die fast. So what? Frigs can get in, and out, very fast. They are not made for long engagements with capital class ships.
Now is the part where one of you equates frigs to stinger missiles, lone fighters, etc etc, Noone takes into acct the fact that modern day ships ie aircraft carriers, have missile to missile defense (defenders) air to air defense (drones) air to air missiles (take ur pick) and CWIS (smartbomb)
We are about to nerf the air to air portion of a battleships defense. Fine. I'll carry some heavies if I need to for backup, however, I really think enough is enough.
Frigates should be used in a support roll. Adding jamming, shooting at missiles/drones, scramble/web if really needed, while cruisers and battleships deal with the main threat.
It does work, we've done it a bit with success, and as I mentioned, I've seen CA use it very well.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.20 07:53:00 -
[18]
Quote: I think enough is enough when it comes to balancing frigs against battleships.
This isnlt just about frigs vs. battleships although that is part of it. Drones positively annhilate frigs. Drones eat cruisers pretty fast too and if you do the math you'll see 8 drones can drop a battleship by themselves in less than a minute (320 damange every 2 seconds...9600 damage per minute).
Is there a good way to fight drones I am unaware of? Missiles can be defended against pretty well. Any ship has its answer in another ship. Now some guy pops up with his ship plus 8 drones. You have 9 targets, you cannot lock all 9 simultaneously, 8 targets take a long time to lock, you have say 5 guns to bring to bear, missiles will soon be useless against them.
I'm missing the balance here.
As for using drones to open a hole in the Defender missile shield I say great! Why not? Good tactics. The whole trick to getting past Defenders is overwhelming them. That is one possible way to do that and for my money makes the whole tactical situation more intriguing and fun to figure out.
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2004.01.20 08:08:00 -
[19]
Personally, I'd like to see a "point defense" turret added to the game. It should use a new Gunnery skill and be a Small weapon that when activated will automatically shoot at any missile or drone that targets you. Damage should be light (just enough to kill a missile), but with a good rate of fire and VERY high tracking. It shouldn't be as accurate as a defender missile, but it would give turret ships a missile defense and provide some drone protection too...
As for missiles, instead of defenders hitting drones why not just let FOF missiles hit them (if they don't already)? A few light FOF missiles should kill a heavy drone and you can fire them from outside the drone's gun range.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.01.20 08:24:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Quote: I think enough is enough when it comes to balancing frigs against battleships.
This isnlt just about frigs vs. battleships although that is part of it. Drones positively annhilate frigs. Drones eat cruisers pretty fast too and if you do the math you'll see 8 drones can drop a battleship by themselves in less than a minute (320 damange every 2 seconds...9600 damage per minute).
Is there a good way to fight drones I am unaware of? Missiles can be defended against pretty well. Any ship has its answer in another ship. Now some guy pops up with his ship plus 8 drones. You have 9 targets, you cannot lock all 9 simultaneously, 8 targets take a long time to lock, you have say 5 guns to bring to bear, missiles will soon be useless against them.
I'm missing the balance here.
As for using drones to open a hole in the Defender missile shield I say great! Why not? Good tactics. The whole trick to getting past Defenders is overwhelming them. That is one possible way to do that and for my money makes the whole tactical situation more intriguing and fun to figure out.
Best way to fight drones is with drones. It's wierd but it works 
Drones have no substantial AI and will focus on a target unless ordered otherwise. Or until that target is no longer valid then move onto the next nearest valid target. Drones ordered or triggered to attack a drone cloud will destroy the first drone, then pick up the next nearest valid target. Which is usually more drones.
Hardest thing is either in timing when you release your drones or targetting a drone in the incoming cloud to guide your drones. Could have been changed recently, but I doubt it. Will have to try it again to make sure.
And whether or not a hole will need opening in a defender missile shield remains to be seen. Right now there are enough issues with missiles, with TomB working on them, to cloud the issue too much imo.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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Finestaut
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Posted - 2004.01.20 08:28:00 -
[21]
what about FoF light missiles? You don't need to lock, they go after the closest threat (drones hug you), and drones have such a tiny amount of armor that they'd probably get worked in one or two hits. It sounds pretty much like what you want defenders to do.
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Sun Ra
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Posted - 2004.01.20 12:47:00 -
[22]
Defenders seem to have trouble taking out heavy missles since the patch let alone drones 
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.20 15:58:00 -
[23]
Quote: Defenders seem to have trouble taking out heavy missles since the patch let alone drones 
I agree. I was fighting NPCs last night and saw a heavy missile launched at me from 25-30km. I had Defenders loaded and ready and shot them in plenty of time. Never once did my Defender kill the incoming missile and in this case I had 2 Defenders chasing one missile.
For fun, since these particular NPCs weren't really a threat, I drove my ship behind a big asteroid. The asteroid was perfectly between me and the NPCs and I was maybe 1km away from my side of the asteroid. Result? Every missile the NPCs shot went through the asteroid and hit me. Dunno about the rest of you but when I shoot missiles and a roid is in the way my missiles die.
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Tsunari
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Posted - 2004.01.21 23:53:00 -
[24]
I'd say make the rockets drone killers. Give em some sort of use. I have to agree that heavy drones pretty much kill the use of a frigate. The frigate needs some sort of module to counter them. Whether it be ECM Burst or some sort of weapon.
I agree with Mon Palae. ~Tsunari |

s0cks
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Posted - 2004.01.22 09:36:00 -
[25]
Drones = Frigates worse nightmare.
Currently drones stop frigates dead. Seriously, we have sent in say 6 of our frigates to fight a thorax with 8 drones. The drones just simply pummel us. Wrap us up in cling film and play golf with us.
There is no way 6 MANNED frigates, should loose to 8 UNMANNED and poorly defensive drones.
I like the idea of defenders taking out drones, but possibly only drones that have targetted you. Or to get that damn ECM Burst fixed with maybe a 10km range instead.
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OmegaTron
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Posted - 2004.01.22 13:15:00 -
[26]
why use defenders when 1 or 2 torps will take care of your pest problem you'll need 1 defender for each drone and i have 9 drones. i think it will take alot longer to pop off 9 or 10 drones with defenders than it would take with 1 or 2 torpedos. just my opinion ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

Miriel Arkonis
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Posted - 2004.01.22 15:09:00 -
[27]
Quote: Drones = Frigates worse nightmare.
Currently drones stop frigates dead. Seriously, we have sent in say 6 of our frigates to fight a thorax with 8 drones. The drones just simply pummel us. Wrap us up in cling film and play golf with us.
There is no way 6 MANNED frigates, should loose to 8 UNMANNED and poorly defensive drones.
I like the idea of defenders taking out drones, but possibly only drones that have targetted you. Or to get that damn ECM Burst fixed with maybe a 10km range instead.
Its possible to engage multiple targets at the same time. Have 2 kestrals with 4 luanchers loaded with heavies lock the drones and start firing missiles. The other 4 attack the Thorax.
And drones being the best defense against drones makes perfect sense. Fighter planes shoot down fighter planes, thats normal.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.22 15:23:00 -
[28]
Quote: why use defenders when 1 or 2 torps will take care of your pest problem you'll need 1 defender for each drone and i have 9 drones. i think it will take alot longer to pop off 9 or 10 drones with defenders than it would take with 1 or 2 torpedos. just my opinion
This is generally the way to go about it but you may have missed the part where CCP is set to nerf missiles. Granted it hasn't happened yet but CCP seems pretty committed to the idea.
Essentially, CCP wants to change missiles such that the heavier sort cannot track and hit smaller ships. In essence, cruise missiles and torpedoes will not be able to hit a frigate unless the frigate is moving very slow and straight. Given that, I think it is safe to assume torpedoes and cruise missiles will have an even harder time tracking and hitting the much smaller and much more nimble drones. You are now faced with using heavies at best (and it wouldn't surprise me if they are too big as well) and likely down to rockets. It will take more than one rocket to kill a drone I believe and with little splash damage you are in the position of having to manually target lock 8 drones, fire multiple missiles at each and do so from within a range that will likely see those drones coming after you.
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Namarus
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Posted - 2004.01.22 16:02:00 -
[29]
Let me ask you a question.
Are you able to kill 1 Heavy combat drone in your Frigate?
The answer should be yes.
In which case your real problem is the fact that someone deploys 8-9 heavy drones against you, which you find a real problem to deal with.
Using your arguements, I want a Frigate size weapon that, when I fight 8 other Frigates I can kill them with 1 shot. I know what, lets have defenders that shoot down Frigates.
This has to be one of the most stupid threads I have seen.
If you can't take the heavy drones on, switch your MWD on, get about 60 kms away, from their mothership, and then just slowly close the range, and shoot his drones down. Nothing to see here .... move along. |

Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.22 16:54:00 -
[30]
Quote: Using your arguements, I want a Frigate size weapon that, when I fight 8 other Frigates I can kill them with 1 shot. I know what, lets have defenders that shoot down Frigates.
This has to be one of the most stupid threads I have seen.
If you can't take the heavy drones on, switch your MWD on, get about 60 kms away, from their mothership, and then just slowly close the range, and shoot his drones down.
This has to be one of the most stupid replies I have seen.
Drones do NOT equal frigates nor should they.
I never said to have Defenders go after anything but missiles and drones.
Fly 60km away and slowly fly in picking off his drones? I don't know what game you are playing but unless you are fighing against someone who is terminally stupid that won't work. Any decent player will just scoop the drones back up and keep them safe. If they are in a battleship they'll thank you for going to optimal for their big guns. If they are a cruiser they can just as easily as you MWD to close distance and redeploy the drones.
The point here is any notion of using close in battle tactics are utterly pooched by drones. A large part of combat is the dance of trying to keep the other guy in your optimal while you stay out of his. If you are fighting a battleship that has big guns on you had best be below 20km or more likely 10km. If you do that out pop the drones. Within 10km your troubles will begin VERY quickly. Most ships can't even target lock 8 things at once. Not to mention they take a long time to target. You'll be lucky to waste two before they are on you and the battleship likely has more drones ready to deploy to replace the two you just shot down.
In short, you are forced to fight battleships at long range which of course suits them just fine.
Not that the whole Defender thing does not see drones made utterly useless. Defenders only engage (IIRC) out to 10km and drones are already shooting from that range. Barring a few specialized missile ships you usually find 2 or maybe 3 launchers on a ship. Even assuming they are ALL loaded with Defenders and assuming they are using Standard Launchers they can fire, say, 3 every 6 seconds. Then there is the time for the defenders to travel to the target and knowing Defenders you'll probably see more than one Defender track on the same target. Hardly a murderfest on drones even assuming an idealized ship meant to kill drones and if the defending ship also has missiles for the Defenders to worry about the system gets overloaded and the guy is in trouble
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OmegaTron
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Posted - 2004.01.22 17:42:00 -
[31]
Quote: Edited by: Mon Palae on 19/01/2004 23:07:46 It is interesting that missiles are getting looked at for a nerf with stated reasons like, "It only takes two cruise missiles to kill a frigate." While that may well be true a frigate can do a lot to protect itself from those missiles with either Defenders or Smartbombs or maybe even outrunning the chasing missile.
Anyone ever see how fast drones kill frigates? It's absurd it is so fast. What's more...there is very little you can do to defend yourself from them.
Target and shoot them? Like you have the time. They take forever to target and you usually have 6, 8 or more to deal with. In a frig given the range of your guns it is just silly. You'll be lucky to kill 2 before you die.
Smartbombs? Not a chance. A microsmartbomb does nowhere near enough damage to kill them quickly enough. Not to mention you have to essentially be in the drone's optimal range to use it on them. You WILL die if you try this stunt. Even a more heavily shielded cruiser with medium smartbombs will take a helluva bloody nose trying to make that work if not simply die as well.
Missiles? Maybe but with the proposed missile nerfs this probably goes out the window too. The only missile that was much use against drones was a torpedo as its splash range could get several. Splash range was nerfed and generally frigates can't carry torps anyway. So it is cruise missiles then. Of course, a standard launcher only carries one cruise missile so you will be reloading a lot and you have 8 drones chasing you. But wait! The proposed coming nerf to cruise missiles will see them not able to catch a frigate as the firgate is too agile. So how is it that missiles will shoot down drones? Answer...they won't. Or you go to rockets and try and hit each drone several times...times 8 drones.
If drones can act as autonomous killing machines then people should have an automatic way to shoot them down. The obvious answer would seem to be Defender missiles. 1 hit = 1 kill. Remember, Defenders only have a 10km range and most ships don't have enough launchers (not to mention actually having Defenders in them) to nail all 8 before they get close so some drones will get their shots in.
I have asked numerous people the best way to fight drones and the answer I invariably get is, "Kill the command ship, ignore the drones beyond trying to not let them get close."
It would be nice to have a reasonable means to fight drones. It would allow a possible way to crash a gate camp where 2 or more ships hover over the JIP with 16+ drones out. Of course, the lag in that situation is horrendous (and this would make it worse) but a ship like a Raven or Caracal could pop through and let Defenders fly clearing out the drones for follow-on ships. Yes...the Raven might die doing that and especially the Caracal probably would but it is a tactic and in a fleet engagement it may be a very worthwhile tactic.
Be fun to see if nothing else.
now this is the reason why everything is being hit with the nerf bat because of players like this who do not know how to play the game and have lost there ship(s) to someone with drones.
Soooo they point the finger at CCP and blame the drones, then b!tch b!tch whine whine whaa whaa and poof the magic nerf bat starts swinging around wrecklessly hitting everything in its path IF YOU CAN'T PLAY THE GAME OR CAN'T CONTROL YOURSELF WHEN LOSEING YOUR PRECIOUS SHIP(S) THEN LOG OFF, WALK OVER TO YOUR TOY BOX AND PULL OUT SOME TOYS THAT YOU CAN CONTROL OK ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

OmegaTron
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Posted - 2004.01.22 17:49:00 -
[32]
Quote:
Quote: why use defenders when 1 or 2 torps will take care of your pest problem you'll need 1 defender for each drone and i have 9 drones. i think it will take alot longer to pop off 9 or 10 drones with defenders than it would take with 1 or 2 torpedos. just my opinion
This is generally the way to go about it but you may have missed the part where CCP is set to nerf missiles. Granted it hasn't happened yet but CCP seems pretty committed to the idea.
Essentially, CCP wants to change missiles such that the heavier sort cannot track and hit smaller ships. In essence, cruise missiles and torpedoes will not be able to hit a frigate unless the frigate is moving very slow and straight. Given that, I think it is safe to assume torpedoes and cruise missiles will have an even harder time tracking and hitting the much smaller and much more nimble drones. You are now faced with using heavies at best (and it wouldn't surprise me if they are too big as well) and likely down to rockets. It will take more than one rocket to kill a drone I believe and with little splash damage you are in the position of having to manually target lock 8 drones, fire multiple missiles at each and do so from within a range that will likely see those drones coming after you.
well unless someone is useing a new type of drone that zig zags when approuching all drones fly straight at you and they stay very close together so launching 1 or 2 torps there way should do the trick maybe 3 after the nerf bat hits the missles ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.22 18:24:00 -
[33]
Quote: well unless someone is useing a new type of drone that zig zags when approuching all drones fly straight at you and they stay very close together so launching 1 or 2 torps there way should do the trick maybe 3 after the nerf bat hits the missles
I see missiles miss straight flying slow moving targets all the time. The missile then turns around and go again and keep doing it till they hit. If missiles like the torp and cruise get an agility hit they will be even harder pressed to turn around and come back. Once drones are on the target the circle so you have an even bigger problem trying to hit them not to mention you'll be hitting yourself with your own splash damage (or damage from a buddy).
As for the bit about whining it is you who needs to leave the game and go lock yourself in a toy box and hide from the world. Apparently you cannot handle any change that might actually see your precious drones hurt. This whole suggestion is a way to bring mroe FUN to the game. Not just happily sit in your battelship pummeling things long range with big guns and creaming anything that gets close with drones. God forbid if you'd actually have to think about tactics and different loadouts for multiple possibilities. Don't hurt yourself thinking too hard...hate to fry the two neurons you have left.
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Namarus
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Posted - 2004.01.22 18:30:00 -
[34]
You still haven't answered the question.
Can you kill 1 on 1 a Heavy combat drone with your frigate?
If the answer is yes, then your problem is the number of drones being used against you, and not the fact that drones are too tough.
Drones are the last line of defense for Capital ships to defend themselves from Frigates. If you think that your 100k isk Frigate should have a chance solo on a 60M-110M Battleship, I would like to have some of what you have been smoking. Nothing to see here .... move along. |

Blade Durrant
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Posted - 2004.01.22 18:42:00 -
[35]
Actually 8 heavy drones actually does as much or more than a kitted cruiser. But people dont want to look at that. Battleships have multiple hardpoints, they can equip enough weapons to equip a few to deal with close range targets (i.e short range autocannons, blasters, even some cruiser/frigate weapons). Maybe if people actually used the idea of combined arms fleets we wouldnt have to deal with the constant discussion that DRONE = FRIGATE.
DRONE != FRIGATE.
Honestly drones are annoyingly difficult to target, frigates cant carry torps, not to mention hvy drones have a 20km range, never miss, and do absurd amounts of dot in packs. And anything should be capable of killing anything else if one pilot is stupid or plain unlucky. Honestly, Battleship blowhard pilots should shut up about "frigates shouldnt be able to kill my precious battleship because it doesnt cost nearly as much."
In war weapons are nearly always cheaper than the thing they are designed to kill. Missiles are about 1% (or many times less) of the value of the target they are being shot at. Aircraft is the biggest risk to a naval taskforce because they can launch large amounts of missiles at targets in short amounts of time. Submarines are considered just as dangerous. A torpedo (which is VASTLY cheaper than its target) can easily sink a battleship or carrier in one hit.
So using historical precedents we see than smaller vessels of war are vastly more dangerous to big ones. If a ship captain chooses not to have lighter escorts, thats his problem, hope he's prepared to deal with threats.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.22 22:06:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 22/01/2004 22:07:56
Quote: If you think that your 100k isk Frigate should have a chance solo on a 60M-110M Battleship, I would like to have some of what you have been smoking.
First, show me where I suggested any such thing.
Second, tell me how long you think it'd take a frigate to kill a battleship by itself in EVE. Even if the frigate gets its optimal range and the battleship does absolutley nothing but sit there as a target. Five minutes? Ten minutes? Now consider the same situation with a battleship actively defending itself with shield hardeners, shield boosters and so on (but not trying to shoot down the frigate) and recalculate (in some cases such as a shield tanked Scorp the answer is the frig will never kill the battleship...five probably couldn't). Finally consider a fully fighting battleship trying to kill the frigate except without drones.
The point of getting frigates and cruisers a chance to get in close to a battleship and survive for any reasonable amount of time is to make combined fleet battles worthwhile rather than only 20 battleship slugfests. All sorts of tactics could be used making for very interesting situations. Frigates zipping in to scramble/web a battleship or try to drain its capacitor. Cruisers defending the battleships from the frigates. Other cruisers trying to kill the cruisers attacking the frigates. Battleships trying to pound the snot out of other battleships long range. Sounds like great fun to me. Only reason it NEVER happens is because of drones and no good answer to them. The bottomline choice for battle in EVE is field as many battleships as you can because nothing else helps much (in the case of cruisers) or not at all (in the case of frigates).
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Roba
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Posted - 2004.01.22 22:17:00 -
[37]
I swear, you hard core frig piolts just need to learn how to handle the drones.
Kestrel/Cruise/MWD
Thats all it takes. Use the MWD to keep the drones at more then 20km and then pick them off with the cruise, one missile each. Or you can have one frig draw them away. First frig attacks the throax then hits the mwd and leads the drones 100km from the battle then warps back. There drones are no long a problem.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.01.22 23:04:00 -
[38]
Why do I get the feeling everytime someone mentions mixed fleet battles they mean frigates ripping battleships a new one. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |

Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.22 23:08:00 -
[39]
Quote: I swear, you hard core frig piolts just need to learn how to handle the drones.
Kestrel/Cruise/MWD
Thats all it takes. Use the MWD to keep the drones at more then 20km and then pick them off with the cruise, one missile each. Or you can have one frig draw them away. First frig attacks the throax then hits the mwd and leads the drones 100km from the battle then warps back. There drones are no long a problem.
Who ARE you fighting? I really want to know because apparently you've found battleship pilots who are complete idiots.
Do you REALLY think it is that easy? These are not NPCs to be 'drawn' away. Take my mate's Megathron for instance. If you sit out at 60km he'll rail your Kestrel into oblivion. If you sit at 20-30km his blasters will nail your Kestrel into oblivion...he won't even launch his drones in this case. Get within 10km to get 'under' his guns and out pop the drones. You'll be lucky to kill four of them and the other four will eat you alive and he will replace the four dead ones (if you managed that) with more from his drone bay.
In fact, I doubt you will kill four drones. I think a single cruise missile will not kill an Ogre and of course cruise don't have the same splash damage potential a torp does and a Kestrel can't carry torps anyway.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.22 23:15:00 -
[40]
Quote: Why do I get the feeling everytime someone mentions mixed fleet battles they mean frigates ripping battleships a new one.
*sigh*
Some poeple on the boards seem to have a real problem with reading comprehension.
Where was it EVER suggested or implied in this thread by people supporting the idea of combined fleet battles that frigates should be able to "rip battleships a new one"?
How would the change I proposed in the original post in this thread (Defenders being able to target drones) allow frigates to own battleships?
Please re-read what I posted earlier.
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OmegaTron
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Posted - 2004.01.22 23:55:00 -
[41]
]
As for the bit about whining it is you who needs to leave the game and go lock yourself in a toy box and hide from the world. Apparently you cannot handle any change that might actually see your precious drones hurt. This whole suggestion is a way to bring mroe FUN to the game. Not just happily sit in your battelship pummeling things long range with big guns and creaming anything that gets close with drones. God forbid if you'd actually have to think about tactics and different loadouts for multiple possibilities. Don't hurt yourself thinking too hard...hate to fry the two neurons you have left.
ok first off i didn't start this thread because i don't know how to play EVE i have gotten my a$$ handed to before from drones and i didn't go whine on a thread and hope CCP would make it all better
instead u can just train yourself to fly a ship(caldari) to counter the drones or just find a better set-up on your ship takes less than 2 neurons to figure this out ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.23 00:44:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 23/01/2004 00:50:07
Quote: ok first off i didn't start this thread because i don't know how to play EVE i have gotten my a$$ handed to before from drones and i didn't go whine on a thread and hope CCP would make it all better
instead u can just train yourself to fly a ship(caldari) to counter the drones or just find a better set-up on your ship takes less than 2 neurons to figure this out
I didn't start this thread because I don't know how to play EVE. I've had my ass handed to me twice by drones. Once I was in a shuttle...the other time in a Caracal. In the shuttle I thought I'd make the gate...I was wrong. In the Caracal I landed under a JIP camp with 16 drones and 8 battleships and 1 cruiser (I think I still have the EVE mail listing them all). I was toast on that one drones or no drones (although the drones hit me up with horrendous lag but I'm not pretending those battleships wouldn't have creamed me no matter what).
Neither of those occasions prompted a thread from me *****ing about anything (those were many weeks ago...I didn't petition either as I got caught fair and square even if it did suck). I actually never use drones but I have many mates that do and via combat testing and watching them in action I have a healthy respect for what drones do.
So, I start a thread proposing a way I think EVE could be more fun. I have listed my reasons and reasoning. Many have replied honestly regardless of side and many have hauled off on petulant little rants.
If you want to try and make a better game that is more fun then help by adding something constructive (which does not mean you have to agree). Otheriwse go somewhere else if you want to engage in ad hominem attacks (go look it up). If you can manage to form a coherent argument on why I'm all wrong then have at it. If the best argument you can manage is, "WALK OVER TO YOUR TOY BOX AND PULL OUT SOME TOYS THAT YOU CAN CONTROL" then you really have nothing to say and are merely wasting bandwidth, electricity and probably air.
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.01.23 02:52:00 -
[43]
I was under the impression that this thread was about adding a new way to counter drones (defender missiles auto-targeting them since they auto-target you) and not about nerfing drones.
Why does it seem that a lot of people are talking about drones being nerfed or that they are under that impression? Why would it be so wrong to make defenders effective against drones? I think it would go a long way to balance things out.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.01.23 04:39:00 -
[44]
Quote: Why does it seem that a lot of people are talking about drones being nerfed or that they are under that impression?
Because they donŠt read. Probably the type of people that say "yeah... mhmmm... yeah" all the time when youŠre talking to them, just to ask you what you said when youŠre finished.
Quote: Why would it be so wrong to make defenders effective against drones?
Because youŠd make every raven and caracal out there the absolute anti-drone machine. After a change like this, there would still nobody be using frigates because caracals and ravens would do a much better job killing drones... before they switch to CMs and torps to back into their normal fighting habit. Actually, they would be doing sucha good job at it that people simply stop using drones... and that shouldnŠt be something one should aim for when balancing stuff out.
Quote: I think it would go a long way to balance things out.
As you can see, I donŠt That idea about the ECM-burst being turned into a sort of "drone disruptor" however is much more attractive IMHO. Reminds me of Rogue Drones.
@people who say "drone = frigate":
Read this please. Especially the paragraphs 3 to 6.
Mai's Idealog |

Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.23 06:47:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 23/01/2004 06:48:05
Quote: Because youŠd make every raven and caracal out there the absolute anti-drone machine. After a change like this, there would still nobody be using frigates because caracals and ravens would do a much better job killing drones... before they switch to CMs and torps to back into their normal fighting habit. Actually, they would be doing sucha good job at it that people simply stop using drones... and that shouldnŠt be something one should aim for when balancing stuff out.
Take note OmegaTron. This is a good response from someone who disagrees.
As for MaiLina's issues:
So what if every Raven and Caracal out there becomes an anit-drone machine? The same could be said for them being anti-missile machines. Nobody has issue with that.
If a Raven wants to be an anti-drone machine then fine. That means the Raven isn't missile spamming me.
This is a great example of the added thought that would have to go into your ship fittings. Does the Raven mount siege launchers and get horrid ROF on defenders loaded into it or do they go with standard launchers and give up using cruise (effectively as it can hold only one) and torps? Or split the difference with an H-50? When under attack what ammo do they now have to choose?
Also, remember that Defenders only have a 10km range. They won't be swatting drones down all over the place. Do you put a Caracal or Raven as drone defense on each ship you want protected? Probably not but maybe you can see the added options for battle this would give you.
Also remember that the Defenders not only would deal with drones but any incoming missiles. The way to beat Defenders is to overload their ability to defend so yet more tactical options.
Finally, Defenders go after the nearest target. I'm not entirely certain a Raven could ripple-fire 6 Defenders and expect to shoot down 6 drones. More likely 6 Defenders would zoom to one drone. Remaining Defenders might turn for other targets but Defenders have a very short lifespan...be lucky to shoot down 2 or 3 drones then wait for the launcher to recycle while the remaining 5 (or whatever) drones lay into you.
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2004.01.23 07:15:00 -
[46]
Defenders don`t have 10km range. They have a 10sec flight time and over 2km/sec speed (I`m at work, can`t look it up). So they have at least 20km range.
Still, I don`t think defenders should fire at drones. FOF cruises and even targeted missiles are doing that job nicely. (although it takes forever to get a lock on the drones now)
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s0cks
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Posted - 2004.01.23 11:05:00 -
[47]
Idea: Use ECM Jamming from a range of roughly 40-60km so he can't fire his big guns. Then fire a cruise at his drones if he deploys em. Problem with this is that we must be carrying the proper ECM equipment.
This can be done, but more then often we would like to sramble and web our openents, so then when he releases his drones we are toast. You'll be surprised how many battleship owners run away once they have their drones disabled and cant hit us for sh*t (either cus we r to close or cus we have em jammed).
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OmegaTron
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Posted - 2004.01.23 12:39:00 -
[48]
Quote: Defenders don`t have 10km range. They have a 10sec flight time and over 2km/sec speed (I`m at work, can`t look it up). So they have at least 20km range.
Still, I don`t think defenders should fire at drones. FOF cruises and even targeted missiles are doing that job nicely. (although it takes forever to get a lock on the drones now)
hey Mon heres a good answer for ya this is a good solution to your problem Mon ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

OmegaTron
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Posted - 2004.01.23 12:41:00 -
[49]
Quote: Idea: Use ECM Jamming from a range of roughly 40-60km so he can't fire his big guns. Then fire a cruise at his drones if he deploys em. Problem with this is that we must be carrying the proper ECM equipment.
This can be done, but more then often we would like to sramble and web our openents, so then when he releases his drones we are toast. You'll be surprised how many battleship owners run away once they have their drones disabled and cant hit us for sh*t (either cus we r to close or cus we have em jammed).
and look another good answer these answers r called COMBAT TACTICS Lesson 1 in COMBAT TACTICS = setting up your ship. ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.23 18:15:00 -
[50]
Quote: Idea: Use ECM Jamming from a range of roughly 40-60km so he can't fire his big guns. Then fire a cruise at his drones if he deploys em. Problem with this is that we must be carrying the proper ECM equipment.
This can be done, but more then often we would like to sramble and web our openents, so then when he releases his drones we are toast. You'll be surprised how many battleship owners run away once they have their drones disabled and cant hit us for sh*t (either cus we r to close or cus we have em jammed).
That's the problem of course...jamming.
If you know what ship you will face you need at least three race specific jammers. If you don't you need 4 multispectral. This all assumes he doesn't have ECCM of course.
From 40-60km out he isn't going to deploy his drones anyway and especially not when he's jammed.
Now you send in your ships to attack him close range. IIRC drones auto-defend the mothership with no need for targetting. Bye-bye to your cruiser/frigate that is attacking close range.
Yes, with many ships doing many different things you can conceive of ways to get by drones but a large part depends on the other pilot's stupidity.
Why not get rid of Defenders altogether so my missiles can go after you? You can smartbomb them still or dodge them or even shoot them down with your guns (yes, missiles can be targetted). I can think of lots of ways for people to handle missiles without Defenders so I say toss them. Does that seem fair enough?
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Namarus
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Posted - 2004.01.23 21:33:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Namarus on 23/01/2004 21:33:44
Quote:
Now you send in your ships to attack him close range. IIRC drones auto-defend the mothership with no need for targetting. Bye-bye to your cruiser/frigate that is attacking close range.
So he's jammed now, why shoot, him,....oh no the drones auto defend him. How about this as an idea? Kill his drones????
Clear up his drones, then shoot him. If he pulls his drones in, then you don't have any problems with drones anymore so you shoot him.
Simple. Nothing to see here .... move along. |

Modune
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Posted - 2004.01.23 23:41:00 -
[52]
You guys all have some good ideas. here is what works for me 1. use speed reducing mods, if you cant reduce the drone speed by half that gives you a 100% adiitional fighting time
2. mines there flight path, when they are in a direct line following you
3. and now that there monuverability is afected heavy missles will hit now
4/. if you have power ECM will slow they down also a little
with this statergy i can shoot down 4 -5 drones before they even get a shot off
good luck
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.01.23 23:53:00 -
[53]
So because drones kick frigate butt they need nerfing, how about not using frigates to attack drone carriers, and BSs, cause maybe, just maybe they have quite effective means of dealing with you, if you ask me, frigates should pose a threat in a group for cruisers, but be annoying flees not worthy of attention for battleships. and a cruiser group should pose a serious threath for BSs. There is absolutely no justification for allowing frigates any change whatsoever of doing damage of any kind to a battleship IMO even the idea of them jamming a battleship borders insanity. Combined fleet actions sure, but a rubberboat with a marine and a m-16 taking on aircraft carriers is what your asking for. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |

Dexter Rast
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Posted - 2004.01.24 03:15:00 -
[54]
all you need to take out drones is heavy FoF missiles, all this talk about defender missiles is useless since we already have anti-drone missiles, if anyone every reads the skills and items descriptions you will find that FoF`s are designed for such engagements, having a slow ship is no good, you wont take out anything unless you have mwd fitted, if you fly in a straight line the cruiser/battleship can hit you easily, if you orbit your as good as dead from the drones if you are not fast enough, all i have is a rifter and i can handle 8 heavy drones and a thorax without getting killed, purely through speed and fof`s
---------------------------------------------
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Blade Durrant
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Posted - 2004.01.24 12:05:00 -
[55]
Quote: So because drones kick frigate butt they need nerfing, how about not using frigates to attack drone carriers, and BSs, cause maybe, just maybe they have quite effective means of dealing with you, if you ask me, frigates should pose a threat in a group for cruisers, but be annoying flees not worthy of attention for battleships. and a cruiser group should pose a serious threath for BSs. There is absolutely no justification for allowing frigates any change whatsoever of doing damage of any kind to a battleship IMO even the idea of them jamming a battleship borders insanity. Combined fleet actions sure, but a rubberboat with a marine and a m-16 taking on aircraft carriers is what your asking for.
*sigh* Some people just dont get it. Yes heavy drones need a slight nerf. They have a 100% accurracy rate for what 16 dmg every 2 seconds. They require 0 lock time, have enough shields/hp to take 2-3 fof heavies each, and with the current fof - lag problems are extremely annoying to shoot at. But people constantly assuming the "Oh i have the almighty uber ebil battleship. Im invincible to everything smaller than me." is just annoying. Comparing a frigate to a guy in a motorboat with an m16 is just stupid. A frigate is more like a smaller vessel carrying lighter weapons, armor, etc. that is much faster, and much more agile than a battleship. And there's a reason battleships arent used anymore. Aircraft, submarines, and fast attack ships are much too effective against them. The only use for a battleship is surface bombardment. And we arent talking about 1 frigate doing any damage. You can ignore 1 frigate shooting at you (if you have a decent shield booster). But a swarm of frigates (5+) should very well be able to cause significant damage. However back to the topic.
There does indeed need to be a better method of dealing with drones. The 20km/100% range/accuracy of heavy drones, combined with their durability (comparable to a T1 frigate, but much more difficult ot target) makes them extremely difficult to kill. In fact you need a fof weapon to do it. But they dont make fof torpedoes, which would be ideal for the job. Defenders targeting drones is a good idea, mainly because something needs to be done about drones. And ravens suck anyway. Scorpions are good ew ships, but without backup they are just expensive cannon fodder. And defenders need to target missiles on gang mates.
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Arleonenis
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Posted - 2004.01.24 12:21:00 -
[56]
I only want that smaller autocannons could automatically fire to any incoming missles/drones and larger autocannons on battleships automatically target and fire to frigates. There should be option to defenders to automatically fire to incoming missles only.
Why i speaking this? Becouse i know that ONE kestrel with heavys and mwd chased TWO blackbirds (they hided in station).
Frigate without mwd is a crap, but with mwd is untochable to cruisers, battleships that don`t have drones. It could outrun all missles, avoid smartbombs range, and is to fast to be tracked by main cannons, so when you gave frigate weapon that could kill easily drones (kestrel could kill half drones in one salvo, give him a assault launchers and it will kill all drones almost instantly with defenders) it will be untochable... it is frigate not GOD vessel that could play with mighty battleships, it`s a cheap fighting unit that could be used in specific tactical situation not one on one with battleships or cruiser.
If you think that frigate is to crap now intall for all gods mwd and use only missles this is to powerfull combination now...
If you don`t see the point you aren`t combat worthy pilots, or use only few primitive tactics as: "he have hammer i want bigger hammer"
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Dexter Rast
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Posted - 2004.01.24 14:40:00 -
[57]
i use my rifter with much the same tactic, i can outrun any missile and avoid the guns of cruisers battleships, drones are a bit of a problem but they are not impossable to tackle, defenders wont make any difference to incoming drones, by the time you get in range to fire the defender it will be too late, FoF`s are the only option and they are good enough if you are a good enough frigate pilot. if it wasnt for drones then nothing would be able to touch me, that wouldnt be very realistic or fair to the battlship pilot that took all that time to train the drone skill in the first place, us frigate pilots need to give BS`s and cruisers a fighting chance you know 
---------------------------------------------
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Yolan
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Posted - 2004.01.24 16:06:00 -
[58]
I think drones are pretty well balanced. It's the amount that certain ships can carry that is out. A Thorax can carry lots of drones but to balance it out it has no launchers. However tier 1 bships have turrets, launchers and a huge drone bay, this the unbalanced part.
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Mamer
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Posted - 2004.01.24 19:10:00 -
[59]
What about perhaps a new brand of weapon, very small, rapid fire, automated, fast turret speed, short range of course like a point defense laser system, for anti-drone use only. Not one shot kills em, but something to give ya a fighting chance if you are not up to speed on other tactics.
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Luviera Silverwave
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Posted - 2004.01.25 02:27:00 -
[60]
I Agree 100% with the poster, Drones and Frigate don't work, or at least the work, but to effective.
Smartbomb's and drones and FoF missles are the things what atm are killing from my point of view alot of the frigates vs any bigger ship kind of battle.
Weapons in overal should have a weakness, Like missiles for instance could have a minimum fire range, so that cruise missles can't be shot from point blank range.
______________ System spec's: Windows XP Professional AMD Athlon(TM) XP 2500+, MMX, 3DNow, ~1.8GHz Memory: 1536MB RAM DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0b NVIDIA GeForce4 FX 5950 Ultra 256.0 MB at 1280*1024 IIYAMA MA203DT Monitor Max Res: 1920,1440 SB Audigy Audio |
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OmegaTron
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Posted - 2004.01.25 10:06:00 -
[61]
the only thing i agree on is upping the drone target time a LITTLE! thats it ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

OmegaTron
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2004.01.25 10:06:00 -
[62]
the only thing i agree on is upping the drone target time a LITTLE! thats it ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

OmegaTron
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Posted - 2004.01.28 14:54:00 -
[63]
looks like most agree on NOT making a defender missle for drone ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

OmegaTron
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2004.01.28 14:54:00 -
[64]
looks like most agree on NOT making a defender missle for drone ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

z0e xiii
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Posted - 2004.01.28 20:57:00 -
[65]
very good point...
Slithereen turns me on... |

z0e xiii
Amarr
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Posted - 2004.01.28 20:57:00 -
[66]
very good point...
Slithereen turns me on... |

Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.28 21:04:00 -
[67]
Quote: looks like most agree on NOT making a defender missle for drone
I'd wager that it is due to most people replying here having battleships and not wanting to have what amounts to a huge advantage for them reduced in any fashion. God forbid anyone have to think tactically and worry about what multiple types of threats they may face rather than pretty much ignore anything other than another battleship.
What I am talking about here wouldn't even come close to negating drones. It owuld just throw a wrinkle in the scheme and allow for more variety and tactics rather than the only goal being to get a battleship because they do everything better and are largely immune to anything else.
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Mon Palae
Gallente Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2004.01.28 21:04:00 -
[68]
Quote: looks like most agree on NOT making a defender missle for drone
I'd wager that it is due to most people replying here having battleships and not wanting to have what amounts to a huge advantage for them reduced in any fashion. God forbid anyone have to think tactically and worry about what multiple types of threats they may face rather than pretty much ignore anything other than another battleship.
What I am talking about here wouldn't even come close to negating drones. It owuld just throw a wrinkle in the scheme and allow for more variety and tactics rather than the only goal being to get a battleship because they do everything better and are largely immune to anything else.
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.01.28 21:12:00 -
[69]
Quote: You guys all have some good ideas. here is what works for me 1. use speed reducing mods, if you cant reduce the drone speed by half that gives you a 100% adiitional fighting time
2. mines there flight path, when they are in a direct line following you
3. and now that there monuverability is afected heavy missles will hit now
4/. if you have power ECM will slow they down also a little
with this statergy i can shoot down 4 -5 drones before they even get a shot off
good luck
Mines? You are the first person I know who uses those. How they are effective against drones I don't see. A mine does what? 30 damage? An Ogre has, I think, 400hp. Good luck killing them with mines...not to mention mines take up a crapload of cargo space.
Speed reducing mods? You have to be within 10km to use that...drones will eb shooting at you. You also may have 8 drones to cope with. You can slow them all down? Even half down?
This also assumes the drone's controller is an idiot and just lets his drones go. If you run away or they start running over ines he can just call them back. And one would assume the drone ship is firing at you all the while.
I for one would REALLY like to see this in practice because I simply do not see it working at all.
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Mon Palae
Gallente Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2004.01.28 21:12:00 -
[70]
Quote: You guys all have some good ideas. here is what works for me 1. use speed reducing mods, if you cant reduce the drone speed by half that gives you a 100% adiitional fighting time
2. mines there flight path, when they are in a direct line following you
3. and now that there monuverability is afected heavy missles will hit now
4/. if you have power ECM will slow they down also a little
with this statergy i can shoot down 4 -5 drones before they even get a shot off
good luck
Mines? You are the first person I know who uses those. How they are effective against drones I don't see. A mine does what? 30 damage? An Ogre has, I think, 400hp. Good luck killing them with mines...not to mention mines take up a crapload of cargo space.
Speed reducing mods? You have to be within 10km to use that...drones will eb shooting at you. You also may have 8 drones to cope with. You can slow them all down? Even half down?
This also assumes the drone's controller is an idiot and just lets his drones go. If you run away or they start running over ines he can just call them back. And one would assume the drone ship is firing at you all the while.
I for one would REALLY like to see this in practice because I simply do not see it working at all.
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Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.01.29 01:23:00 -
[71]
Quote:
Quote: looks like most agree on NOT making a defender missle for drone
I'd wager that it is due to most people replying here having battleships and not wanting to have what amounts to a huge advantage for them reduced in any fashion. God forbid anyone have to think tactically and worry about what multiple types of threats they may face rather than pretty much ignore anything other than another battleship.
What I am talking about here wouldn't even come close to negating drones. It owuld just throw a wrinkle in the scheme and allow for more variety and tactics rather than the only goal being to get a battleship because they do everything better and are largely immune to anything else.
So people take along drones ( which aren't used in fleet actions cause of lag ) and FOF missiles, because they only worry about other BSs, k that makes sense 
What this is all about is you wanting to take a frigate into to the fray of several battleships spewing forth insane damage, and survive cause you got implants. Tactics, variation and whatever my rear end, that's already there.
Frigates are eves soldiers, don't cost much, don't take much training and are expendable, plenty of em.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
|
Posted - 2004.01.29 01:23:00 -
[72]
Quote:
Quote: looks like most agree on NOT making a defender missle for drone
I'd wager that it is due to most people replying here having battleships and not wanting to have what amounts to a huge advantage for them reduced in any fashion. God forbid anyone have to think tactically and worry about what multiple types of threats they may face rather than pretty much ignore anything other than another battleship.
What I am talking about here wouldn't even come close to negating drones. It owuld just throw a wrinkle in the scheme and allow for more variety and tactics rather than the only goal being to get a battleship because they do everything better and are largely immune to anything else.
So people take along drones ( which aren't used in fleet actions cause of lag ) and FOF missiles, because they only worry about other BSs, k that makes sense 
What this is all about is you wanting to take a frigate into to the fray of several battleships spewing forth insane damage, and survive cause you got implants. Tactics, variation and whatever my rear end, that's already there.
Frigates are eves soldiers, don't cost much, don't take much training and are expendable, plenty of em.
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Mon Palae
|
Posted - 2004.01.29 02:17:00 -
[73]
Quote: What this is all about is you wanting to take a frigate into to the fray of several battleships spewing forth insane damage, and survive cause you got implants. Tactics, variation and whatever my rear end, that's already there.
Where did I say any such thing?
Where did I even imply any such thing?
What the hell are schools teaching people these days? Certainly not reading comprehension or critical thinking skills.
Call your local Board of Education and demand a do-over for 5th grade and up.
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Mon Palae
Gallente Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2004.01.29 02:17:00 -
[74]
Quote: What this is all about is you wanting to take a frigate into to the fray of several battleships spewing forth insane damage, and survive cause you got implants. Tactics, variation and whatever my rear end, that's already there.
Where did I say any such thing?
Where did I even imply any such thing?
What the hell are schools teaching people these days? Certainly not reading comprehension or critical thinking skills.
Call your local Board of Education and demand a do-over for 5th grade and up.
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OmegaTron
|
Posted - 2004.01.30 15:28:00 -
[75]
1) smartbombs
2) Torpedo's
3) cruise missle's
if u don't know how to use these 3 items of EVE to defend yourself against drones then u shouldn't be playing IF u do not have any of these 3 items with u when 8 or 10 drones r on your tail then i suggest u turn around and warp away. Its called "COMMONSENSE" something u should have learned from day 1 of your birth ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

OmegaTron
Amarr Viziam
|
Posted - 2004.01.30 15:28:00 -
[76]
1) smartbombs
2) Torpedo's
3) cruise missle's
if u don't know how to use these 3 items of EVE to defend yourself against drones then u shouldn't be playing IF u do not have any of these 3 items with u when 8 or 10 drones r on your tail then i suggest u turn around and warp away. Its called "COMMONSENSE" something u should have learned from day 1 of your birth ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

OmegaTron
|
Posted - 2004.01.30 15:36:00 -
[77]
Edited by: OmegaTron on 30/01/2004 15:40:34 Edited by: OmegaTron on 30/01/2004 15:38:14 Edited by: OmegaTron on 30/01/2004 15:37:21 also just what exactly do u think a frigate or 2 with "Drone Defenders" is going to do against 8 or 10 drones because if these players flying these frigates using "drone defenders" can't take them out with 1 or 2 torpedo's then there is no way in he11 they'll get off 8 or 10 "drone defenders" before the frigates r toast.
Now would u rather use 1 or 2 torpedo's to kill all the drones at once or "TRY" shooting off 8 or 10 "drone defenders" and pray to God they all it there targets
Like i said before i agree on upping the targeting speed of the drones a "LITTLE" thats it
edit: typo ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

OmegaTron
Amarr Viziam
|
Posted - 2004.01.30 15:36:00 -
[78]
Edited by: OmegaTron on 30/01/2004 15:40:34 Edited by: OmegaTron on 30/01/2004 15:38:14 Edited by: OmegaTron on 30/01/2004 15:37:21 also just what exactly do u think a frigate or 2 with "Drone Defenders" is going to do against 8 or 10 drones because if these players flying these frigates using "drone defenders" can't take them out with 1 or 2 torpedo's then there is no way in he11 they'll get off 8 or 10 "drone defenders" before the frigates r toast.
Now would u rather use 1 or 2 torpedo's to kill all the drones at once or "TRY" shooting off 8 or 10 "drone defenders" and pray to God they all it there targets
Like i said before i agree on upping the targeting speed of the drones a "LITTLE" thats it
edit: typo ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming.... |

Mon Palae
|
Posted - 2004.01.30 18:00:00 -
[79]
Quote: 1) smartbombs
2) Torpedo's
3) cruise missle's
if u don't know how to use these 3 items of EVE to defend yourself against drones then u shouldn't be playing IF u do not have any of these 3 items with u when 8 or 10 drones r on your tail then i suggest u turn around and warp away. Its called "COMMONSENSE" something u should have learned from day 1 of your birth
1) Smartbombs: Only medium or bigger smartbombs are remotely effective against drones and medium barely so. M-sbombs have I think a 4km radius...drones shoot from much further. Further, at best, you will do 100 points of damage every 10 seconds. Against an Ogre it will take you 40 seconds minimum to kill them with a single m-sbomb...you'll be dead from 8 drones long before that. In short, s-bombs are mostly useless against drones except on a battleship. An L-Sbomb is pretty useful but with a 1250 powergrid fitting requirement forget about stuffing it on anything but a battleship.
2) Torpedoes: First it takes forever to get a lock on drones. Second, no frigate or cruiser can target lock 8 anything at once (well...maybe with an appropriate mod but mostly never and definitely never for a frigate). Third, frigates cannot carry torpedoes. Fourth, CCP is nerfing torps and cruise so they cannot hit frigates and given droens are even smaller and more nimble it is reasonable to assume they won't hit drones either. That leaves heavy missiles at best and even they may have trouble with the agility nerf missiles will get. It will take 3 heavy missiles to kill one Ogre. So 24 missiles shot minimum to take down 8 heavy drones. Good luck...
3) Cruise Missiles: See point #2 above as it mostly applies to this as well.
As for Defenders managing the trick they can fit easily into an Assault Launcher (3 I believe). With a 3 second firing rate even a ship with 2 can throw one on average once every 1.5 seconds up to 6 total before having to reload. With a range of roughly 20km it becomes a dance of when to use them vs. when the drone controller puts them out and so on.
What is really interesting is the number of people looking for more ways to 'autotarget' missiles and kill them with things like point-defense turrets. Missiles will be getting a nerf soon it seems, people can use defenders against them as well as s-bombs yet most any frigate pilot and many cruiser pilots will tell you drones are far more dangerous. Go figure...
|

Mon Palae
Gallente Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2004.01.30 18:00:00 -
[80]
Quote: 1) smartbombs
2) Torpedo's
3) cruise missle's
if u don't know how to use these 3 items of EVE to defend yourself against drones then u shouldn't be playing IF u do not have any of these 3 items with u when 8 or 10 drones r on your tail then i suggest u turn around and warp away. Its called "COMMONSENSE" something u should have learned from day 1 of your birth
1) Smartbombs: Only medium or bigger smartbombs are remotely effective against drones and medium barely so. M-sbombs have I think a 4km radius...drones shoot from much further. Further, at best, you will do 100 points of damage every 10 seconds. Against an Ogre it will take you 40 seconds minimum to kill them with a single m-sbomb...you'll be dead from 8 drones long before that. In short, s-bombs are mostly useless against drones except on a battleship. An L-Sbomb is pretty useful but with a 1250 powergrid fitting requirement forget about stuffing it on anything but a battleship.
2) Torpedoes: First it takes forever to get a lock on drones. Second, no frigate or cruiser can target lock 8 anything at once (well...maybe with an appropriate mod but mostly never and definitely never for a frigate). Third, frigates cannot carry torpedoes. Fourth, CCP is nerfing torps and cruise so they cannot hit frigates and given droens are even smaller and more nimble it is reasonable to assume they won't hit drones either. That leaves heavy missiles at best and even they may have trouble with the agility nerf missiles will get. It will take 3 heavy missiles to kill one Ogre. So 24 missiles shot minimum to take down 8 heavy drones. Good luck...
3) Cruise Missiles: See point #2 above as it mostly applies to this as well.
As for Defenders managing the trick they can fit easily into an Assault Launcher (3 I believe). With a 3 second firing rate even a ship with 2 can throw one on average once every 1.5 seconds up to 6 total before having to reload. With a range of roughly 20km it becomes a dance of when to use them vs. when the drone controller puts them out and so on.
What is really interesting is the number of people looking for more ways to 'autotarget' missiles and kill them with things like point-defense turrets. Missiles will be getting a nerf soon it seems, people can use defenders against them as well as s-bombs yet most any frigate pilot and many cruiser pilots will tell you drones are far more dangerous. Go figure...
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Kaylon Syi
|
Posted - 2004.01.30 20:17:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Kaylon Syi on 30/01/2004 20:26:53 Wow. Ok now that I have read enuff posts I think I will put my hand in this.
Defenders to fire on drones... sure put it in... go ahead. You will have a bit better time to kill them cause drone range has improved so they will fly farther... and at the same time be in a good EMP L range with Large Projectiles .
Also, Jash was absolutely right. Drones get targeted by defenders then I will use Hammerheads in my typhoon to make a path for torpedos. Or get another dominix. As soon as you kill one you will have another on your arse. Your actually bringing drones into the fray more with something like this. Your not helping your case to be honest. Your thinking on a 1 to 1 ( or 8vs1 you think ) comparison - think out of the box for a monent. As soon as you devote your precious battle seconds, especially in a frigate, to targeting defense you have already lost the battle.
Frigates are great ships I have used them for hunting cruisers for a long time. They are out classed against BSs unless you have a pack of them and are organized.
Frigates will always and should be owned by drones. Thats why they are in the game. If not... then why? Don't say to defend against NPCs and such for mining... cause guess what... those most miners fight vs frigate NPCs with drones. Don't forget when you nerf/balance drones in PvP it spreads to miners too... and mission runners.
|

Kaylon Syi
Gallente Black Hole Creations
|
Posted - 2004.01.30 20:17:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Kaylon Syi on 30/01/2004 20:26:53 Wow. Ok now that I have read enuff posts I think I will put my hand in this.
Defenders to fire on drones... sure put it in... go ahead. You will have a bit better time to kill them cause drone range has improved so they will fly farther... and at the same time be in a good EMP L range with Large Projectiles .
Also, Jash was absolutely right. Drones get targeted by defenders then I will use Hammerheads in my typhoon to make a path for torpedos. Or get another dominix. As soon as you kill one you will have another on your arse. Your actually bringing drones into the fray more with something like this. Your not helping your case to be honest. Your thinking on a 1 to 1 ( or 8vs1 you think ) comparison - think out of the box for a monent. As soon as you devote your precious battle seconds, especially in a frigate, to targeting defense you have already lost the battle.
Frigates are great ships I have used them for hunting cruisers for a long time. They are out classed against BSs unless you have a pack of them and are organized.
Frigates will always and should be owned by drones. Thats why they are in the game. If not... then why? Don't say to defend against NPCs and such for mining... cause guess what... those most miners fight vs frigate NPCs with drones. Don't forget when you nerf/balance drones in PvP it spreads to miners too... and mission runners. ----- If I was you... I'd run. |

Kaylon Syi
|
Posted - 2004.01.30 20:25:00 -
[83]
And if this post was made with any idea being safe or safer to pilot of frigate if you have implants... your insane. There is a cost vs risk in this Universe of EVE. If you are crazy and have implants... by all means fly a frigate into battle. But I for one have no need to be that crazy. I haven't used an implant since November so I could fly any sized ship into combat as the need called for. At my saving of isk... i have slowed my training to normal levels while others younger than me surpass me yet can't do the things I can do for fear of loosing implants. That is balance and I really don't see anything wrong with drones owning frigates.
Lets get over the idea of not being able to kill something or someone you want to kill when you want to kill it and start coming up with some useful tactics and hunting strategies that work without nerfs.
|

Kaylon Syi
Gallente Black Hole Creations
|
Posted - 2004.01.30 20:25:00 -
[84]
And if this post was made with any idea being safe or safer to pilot of frigate if you have implants... your insane. There is a cost vs risk in this Universe of EVE. If you are crazy and have implants... by all means fly a frigate into battle. But I for one have no need to be that crazy. I haven't used an implant since November so I could fly any sized ship into combat as the need called for. At my saving of isk... i have slowed my training to normal levels while others younger than me surpass me yet can't do the things I can do for fear of loosing implants. That is balance and I really don't see anything wrong with drones owning frigates.
Lets get over the idea of not being able to kill something or someone you want to kill when you want to kill it and start coming up with some useful tactics and hunting strategies that work without nerfs. ----- If I was you... I'd run. |

MaiLina KaTar
|
Posted - 2004.01.31 07:43:00 -
[85]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 31/01/2004 08:11:47 Dunno... I think itŠs a fact that frigates need a way to fight drones. Note that IŠm not saying they need a way to instakill or avoid drones... they need to be able to fight them.
This is a player versus player game. Now: Battleships are players, frigates are players. Obviously, drones are not players, but the battleships and cruisers that launch them are, so essentially you can say that a pack of 8 drones equals 1 player. You dig me up until here? If not then donŠt read on 
8 drones come from 1 player, just like a frigate/cruiser/battleship is used by 1 player. Note: A frigate that isnŠt equipped with launchers will never be able to damage the battleship itself, so you have a totally legit 1-sided situation if you go after a simple rock-paper-scissor approach. What this means is that, if you take the upcoming changes to missiles into account, at the moment the only method for a battleship pilot to damage a frigate are drones, while the frigate will never be able to significantly damage the battleship. But because we basically have a rock-paper-scissor approach underlying just about everything in this game you need to give 1 side the clear advantage, you need to let one side win. Do I need to say which side that should be? Remember: 8 drones equal 1 player, drones are not players... drones do not have emotions, they do not consider winning fun... and the fact that a frig canŠt damage a battleship means that it would be totally unfair if the battleship gets to kill the frig with drones. Clearly: The frigate needs to kill the drones, the player needs to win.
For the battleship pilot the situation is rather relaxed and simple. Just donŠt make the mistake and use drones against frigates if you canŠt outnumber the frigates. Use 16 drones from 2 bships against one frigate. If you only have 8, donŠt undock your drones when you have frigs against you. A much more effective way to kill the frigate: use a frigate yourself and exploit its anti-frig weakness! Wow... that was hard to figure out now was it?  This, ladies and gentlemen, is what you call gameplay balance. This is how you create mixed-fleet combat.
You might aswell use a decent cruiser... just think about how great a Thorax would be Lots of drones against battleships and other cruisers and decent medium turrets to bash frigs and cruisers, oohhhweee... a real allround talent that sweet little thing... not the boring pro-miner it currently is. Or in a bship you could rely on large smartbombs maybe. Hey... they might not save you from a frig's jammers, but at least they make sure that they donŠt come close and start nibbling your shields away with small blasters or something. Essentially, when frigates are able to kill drones, battleships still have a small number of ways to deal with frigates and once again let's keep in mind that as long as you donŠt have a second battleship warping in to backup that frigate, the battleship will never be in danger. For the frigates however, being able to fight and defeat drones is absolutely required. If they canŠt do that, theyŠre worthless for just about anything.
Now... contrary to some people in here I do not think that defender missiles are the way. Frigates should not instakill drones, that would be unfair. They should have to fight them with their small weapons. They should take some time to deal with those drones because anything else would be unfair. This is why IŠm suggesting a module similar to the ECM-burst. A pulse weapon that incapacitates up to 8 drones OR stops them from shooting for a small period of time within its blast radius. Something like this wouldnŠt be pretty hard to code I guess and it would give frigs a decent and stylish way to get rid of drones, and contrary to defender missiles, a module like this would not interfere with balancing of the other shipclasses.
Cheers.
Mai's Idealog |

MaiLina KaTar
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2004.01.31 07:43:00 -
[86]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 31/01/2004 08:11:47 Dunno... I think itŠs a fact that frigates need a way to fight drones. Note that IŠm not saying they need a way to instakill or avoid drones... they need to be able to fight them.
This is a player versus player game. Now: Battleships are players, frigates are players. Obviously, drones are not players, but the battleships and cruisers that launch them are, so essentially you can say that a pack of 8 drones equals 1 player. You dig me up until here? If not then donŠt read on 
8 drones come from 1 player, just like a frigate/cruiser/battleship is used by 1 player. Note: A frigate that isnŠt equipped with launchers will never be able to damage the battleship itself, so you have a totally legit 1-sided situation if you go after a simple rock-paper-scissor approach. What this means is that, if you take the upcoming changes to missiles into account, at the moment the only method for a battleship pilot to damage a frigate are drones, while the frigate will never be able to significantly damage the battleship. But because we basically have a rock-paper-scissor approach underlying just about everything in this game you need to give 1 side the clear advantage, you need to let one side win. Do I need to say which side that should be? Remember: 8 drones equal 1 player, drones are not players... drones do not have emotions, they do not consider winning fun... and the fact that a frig canŠt damage a battleship means that it would be totally unfair if the battleship gets to kill the frig with drones. Clearly: The frigate needs to kill the drones, the player needs to win.
For the battleship pilot the situation is rather relaxed and simple. Just donŠt make the mistake and use drones against frigates if you canŠt outnumber the frigates. Use 16 drones from 2 bships against one frigate. If you only have 8, donŠt undock your drones when you have frigs against you. A much more effective way to kill the frigate: use a frigate yourself and exploit its anti-frig weakness! Wow... that was hard to figure out now was it?  This, ladies and gentlemen, is what you call gameplay balance. This is how you create mixed-fleet combat.
You might aswell use a decent cruiser... just think about how great a Thorax would be Lots of drones against battleships and other cruisers and decent medium turrets to bash frigs and cruisers, oohhhweee... a real allround talent that sweet little thing... not the boring pro-miner it currently is. Or in a bship you could rely on large smartbombs maybe. Hey... they might not save you from a frig's jammers, but at least they make sure that they donŠt come close and start nibbling your shields away with small blasters or something. Essentially, when frigates are able to kill drones, battleships still have a small number of ways to deal with frigates and once again let's keep in mind that as long as you donŠt have a second battleship warping in to backup that frigate, the battleship will never be in danger. For the frigates however, being able to fight and defeat drones is absolutely required. If they canŠt do that, theyŠre worthless for just about anything.
Now... contrary to some people in here I do not think that defender missiles are the way. Frigates should not instakill drones, that would be unfair. They should have to fight them with their small weapons. They should take some time to deal with those drones because anything else would be unfair. This is why IŠm suggesting a module similar to the ECM-burst. A pulse weapon that incapacitates up to 8 drones OR stops them from shooting for a small period of time within its blast radius. Something like this wouldnŠt be pretty hard to code I guess and it would give frigs a decent and stylish way to get rid of drones, and contrary to defender missiles, a module like this would not interfere with balancing of the other shipclasses.
Cheers.
Mai's Idealog |

Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.01.31 08:43:00 -
[87]
1 ) Thats not a fact, fact is that drones are used on cruiser carriers, most notably the thorax which is a very powerful cruiser when used to it's max potential, but quite the bugger to train for. And as frigate/fast cruiser defence since BS guns are ineffective against them. 2 ) K how about having drones stick to the hull but remaining destroyable, FFS drones are not ships, they're small orbiting guns that don't take even remotely the kind of beating you guys are saying they do. 3 ) 8 drones come from 1 player, like 6 425s come from one player. Drones don't like winning, well drones are guns, my guns, I like winning just as much as the frigate pilot but I got more at stake I should win.  4) In your example the only way a mixed fleet battle would be fought if both sides had equal numbers of all shipclasses, do you realize how freaking rare big wonderfull fleet battles are? compared to everyday eve gameplay? balancing a game after something that amounts too 10% if that of the gameplay ain't a hot idea. Unless you like 2 BSs losing too 1 BS and 1/2 frigates, oh wait that already happens. 5) Frigates have no role if they can't survive against drones? do you play the game? Frigates have a wide array of uses, you're trying to add a use not give frigates one. So frigates aren't your best option in fleet battles, guess what that's what the other ship options are for. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
|
Posted - 2004.01.31 08:43:00 -
[88]
1 ) Thats not a fact, fact is that drones are used on cruiser carriers, most notably the thorax which is a very powerful cruiser when used to it's max potential, but quite the bugger to train for. And as frigate/fast cruiser defence since BS guns are ineffective against them. 2 ) K how about having drones stick to the hull but remaining destroyable, FFS drones are not ships, they're small orbiting guns that don't take even remotely the kind of beating you guys are saying they do. 3 ) 8 drones come from 1 player, like 6 425s come from one player. Drones don't like winning, well drones are guns, my guns, I like winning just as much as the frigate pilot but I got more at stake I should win.  4) In your example the only way a mixed fleet battle would be fought if both sides had equal numbers of all shipclasses, do you realize how freaking rare big wonderfull fleet battles are? compared to everyday eve gameplay? balancing a game after something that amounts too 10% if that of the gameplay ain't a hot idea. Unless you like 2 BSs losing too 1 BS and 1/2 frigates, oh wait that already happens. 5) Frigates have no role if they can't survive against drones? do you play the game? Frigates have a wide array of uses, you're trying to add a use not give frigates one. So frigates aren't your best option in fleet battles, guess what that's what the other ship options are for.
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MaiLina KaTar
|
Posted - 2004.01.31 09:17:00 -
[89]
Quote: 1 ) Thats not a fact, fact is that drones are used on cruiser carriers, most notably the thorax which is a very powerful cruiser when used to it's max potential, but quite the bugger to train for. And as frigate/fast cruiser defence since BS guns are ineffective against them.
Err... so you're repeating my point about drones killing frigs. Thanks... I guess.
Quote:
2 ) K how about having drones stick to the hull but remaining destroyable, FFS drones are not ships, they're small orbiting guns that don't take even remotely the kind of beating you guys are saying they do.
Small orbiting guns...k. Your point?
Quote:
3 ) 8 drones come from 1 player, like 6 425s come from one player. Drones don't like winning, well drones are guns, my guns, I like winning just as much as the frigate pilot but I got more at stake I should win.
"I got more, I should win." ThatŠs exactly the kind of stuff creating battleship-only PvP aka boredom.
Quote: 4) In your example the only way a mixed fleet battle would be fought if both sides had equal numbers of all shipclasses, do you realize how freaking rare big wonderfull fleet battles are? compared to everyday eve gameplay? balancing a game after something that amounts too 10% if that of the gameplay ain't a hot idea. Unless you like 2 BSs losing too 1 BS and 1/2 frigates, oh wait that already happens.
Yes I do realize how rare they are. Now ask yourself why they are so rare. Probably not because people donŠt want to make them happen. DonŠt you think a reason why they donŠt happen could be the fact that real PvP currently is limited to battleships, a few cruisers and 3 frigates?
Quote:
5) Frigates have no role if they can't survive against drones? do you play the game? Frigates have a wide array of uses, you're trying to add a use not give frigates one. So frigates aren't your best option in fleet battles, guess what that's what the other ship options are for.
We've had the "frigs do have purpssss... they can jam teh bshipz" and the "Kestrels can sh00t CMs!" arguments often enough now, thanks. If you count 3 types of frigates being used in PvP as "a wide array of uses", fine for you, I donŠt.
Mai's Idealog |

MaiLina KaTar
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2004.01.31 09:17:00 -
[90]
Quote: 1 ) Thats not a fact, fact is that drones are used on cruiser carriers, most notably the thorax which is a very powerful cruiser when used to it's max potential, but quite the bugger to train for. And as frigate/fast cruiser defence since BS guns are ineffective against them.
Err... so you're repeating my point about drones killing frigs. Thanks... I guess.
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2 ) K how about having drones stick to the hull but remaining destroyable, FFS drones are not ships, they're small orbiting guns that don't take even remotely the kind of beating you guys are saying they do.
Small orbiting guns...k. Your point?
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3 ) 8 drones come from 1 player, like 6 425s come from one player. Drones don't like winning, well drones are guns, my guns, I like winning just as much as the frigate pilot but I got more at stake I should win.
"I got more, I should win." ThatŠs exactly the kind of stuff creating battleship-only PvP aka boredom.
Quote: 4) In your example the only way a mixed fleet battle would be fought if both sides had equal numbers of all shipclasses, do you realize how freaking rare big wonderfull fleet battles are? compared to everyday eve gameplay? balancing a game after something that amounts too 10% if that of the gameplay ain't a hot idea. Unless you like 2 BSs losing too 1 BS and 1/2 frigates, oh wait that already happens.
Yes I do realize how rare they are. Now ask yourself why they are so rare. Probably not because people donŠt want to make them happen. DonŠt you think a reason why they donŠt happen could be the fact that real PvP currently is limited to battleships, a few cruisers and 3 frigates?
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5) Frigates have no role if they can't survive against drones? do you play the game? Frigates have a wide array of uses, you're trying to add a use not give frigates one. So frigates aren't your best option in fleet battles, guess what that's what the other ship options are for.
We've had the "frigs do have purpssss... they can jam teh bshipz" and the "Kestrels can sh00t CMs!" arguments often enough now, thanks. If you count 3 types of frigates being used in PvP as "a wide array of uses", fine for you, I donŠt.
Mai's Idealog |
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.01.31 10:35:00 -
[91]
There's more to this game then fleet battles in case you didn't notice, saying a ship that cannot perform in every pvp situation is uselless is utter bull.
And my point about drones being guns that can be destroyed is that drones != a ship/player, they're part of a players arsenal of weapons.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2004.01.31 10:35:00 -
[92]
There's more to this game then fleet battles in case you didn't notice, saying a ship that cannot perform in every pvp situation is uselless is utter bull.
And my point about drones being guns that can be destroyed is that drones != a ship/player, they're part of a players arsenal of weapons.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.01.31 10:45:00 -
[93]
And I will say this one last time the reason you don't see ships besides BSs in mayor battles is cause of the quite simple fact that if you can choose between a frigate a cruiser and Battleship anyone sane will take the battleship to war. Atleast I would, that's why one spends months training for them, if there was a frigate that would take the same amount of effort to acquire and pilot then yes it should play a significant role in PvP, but as it stands now, that is not the case.
When elite frigates start doing their thing then you can see how too make them usefull enough to warrant their use over a BS in a fleet. Normal frigates are fine as is. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2004.01.31 10:45:00 -
[94]
And I will say this one last time the reason you don't see ships besides BSs in mayor battles is cause of the quite simple fact that if you can choose between a frigate a cruiser and Battleship anyone sane will take the battleship to war. Atleast I would, that's why one spends months training for them, if there was a frigate that would take the same amount of effort to acquire and pilot then yes it should play a significant role in PvP, but as it stands now, that is not the case.
When elite frigates start doing their thing then you can see how too make them usefull enough to warrant their use over a BS in a fleet. Normal frigates are fine as is.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.01.31 17:25:00 -
[95]
Quote: Normal frigates are fine as is.
bs.
Sorry but the rest of your stuff is just not worth mentioning. People like you kept crying how frigs were fine before Castor. Now look what CCP did. If you think that PvP in eve should be almost exclusively happening in battleships, think again.
WeŠll meet each other again when missiles are changed and torps will not take out drones any longer. YouŠll be the first one whining about how they threaten your life in your oh so precious battleship and need to be nerfed.
Mai's Idealog |

MaiLina KaTar
Aliastra
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Posted - 2004.01.31 17:25:00 -
[96]
Quote: Normal frigates are fine as is.
bs.
Sorry but the rest of your stuff is just not worth mentioning. People like you kept crying how frigs were fine before Castor. Now look what CCP did. If you think that PvP in eve should be almost exclusively happening in battleships, think again.
WeŠll meet each other again when missiles are changed and torps will not take out drones any longer. YouŠll be the first one whining about how they threaten your life in your oh so precious battleship and need to be nerfed.
Mai's Idealog |

Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.01.31 18:46:00 -
[97]
My battleship, sry to dissapoint you there, I've only been able to pilot mine for the last 2 days, so that can't be the reason.
Why oh why is it so important to give the lvl 2 mage a role in a battle with lvl 150 mages throwing around uber spells. Cause that's the fantasy equivalent of what you want.
And elite frigates are not worht mentioning, well suprise suprise they take a month of training, as such they can be given roles that surpass a BS's abilities. Since they require training, and effort. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |

Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2004.01.31 18:46:00 -
[98]
My battleship, sry to dissapoint you there, I've only been able to pilot mine for the last 2 days, so that can't be the reason.
Why oh why is it so important to give the lvl 2 mage a role in a battle with lvl 150 mages throwing around uber spells. Cause that's the fantasy equivalent of what you want.
And elite frigates are not worht mentioning, well suprise suprise they take a month of training, as such they can be given roles that surpass a BS's abilities. Since they require training, and effort.
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2004.02.01 02:00:00 -
[99]
Quote: Why oh why is it so important to give the lvl 2 mage a role in a battle with lvl 150 mages throwing around uber spells. Cause that's the fantasy equivalent of what you want.
bs again. That first sentence just proves that you actually didnŠt understand a single sentence of my post 
Mai's Idealog |

MaiLina KaTar
Aliastra
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Posted - 2004.02.01 02:00:00 -
[100]
Quote: Why oh why is it so important to give the lvl 2 mage a role in a battle with lvl 150 mages throwing around uber spells. Cause that's the fantasy equivalent of what you want.
bs again. That first sentence just proves that you actually didnŠt understand a single sentence of my post 
Mai's Idealog |
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.01 04:13:00 -
[101]
Edited by: j0sephine on 01/02/2004 04:15:15
"Why oh why is it so important to give the lvl 2 mage a role in a battle with lvl 150 mages throwing around uber spells. Cause that's the fantasy equivalent of what you want."
... No, the fantasy equivalent would be having a thief on the battlefield, that actually stands some chance of sneaking up on that lvl 150 mage, to club them over the head and knock them out, while they're all busy and focused mumbling their uber spells to annihilate the other wizard on top of another hill. :s
And it's not fantasy game, so equivalents aren't very relevant. Play rather Homeworld or similar space tactics game. Note how there's more ship types there than just battlecruisers, and all equally useful even if their cost and building time can vary greatly.
Funny concept, i know.
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j0sephine
Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2004.02.01 04:13:00 -
[102]
Edited by: j0sephine on 01/02/2004 04:15:15
"Why oh why is it so important to give the lvl 2 mage a role in a battle with lvl 150 mages throwing around uber spells. Cause that's the fantasy equivalent of what you want."
... No, the fantasy equivalent would be having a thief on the battlefield, that actually stands some chance of sneaking up on that lvl 150 mage, to club them over the head and knock them out, while they're all busy and focused mumbling their uber spells to annihilate the other wizard on top of another hill. :s
And it's not fantasy game, so equivalents aren't very relevant. Play rather Homeworld or similar space tactics game. Note how there's more ship types there than just battlecruisers, and all equally useful even if their cost and building time can vary greatly.
Funny concept, i know.
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Gius
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Posted - 2004.02.01 04:32:00 -
[103]
how bout instead of defenders have a planix (forgive the spelling) high speed gatlin gun kinda like what the US has on its carriers and bss they auto target incoming missles and destroy them with a massive amount of bullets. This would give us to cheap to buy missles bastards an alternate to the defenders, but of course the ammo buy could be more than missles I guess, lol. Well thats my 2 cents :)
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Gius
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Posted - 2004.02.01 04:32:00 -
[104]
how bout instead of defenders have a planix (forgive the spelling) high speed gatlin gun kinda like what the US has on its carriers and bss they auto target incoming missles and destroy them with a massive amount of bullets. This would give us to cheap to buy missles bastards an alternate to the defenders, but of course the ammo buy could be more than missles I guess, lol. Well thats my 2 cents :)
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Kennian
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Posted - 2004.02.01 08:51:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Kennian on 01/02/2004 08:53:03 just a little info
Ogre heavy drone..
cost to produce, 150000 isk damage 21-27 every 2 seconds
low armor, shields, speed, roughly 30000 isk to repair high lock speed
Tristan heavy Frigite
cost to produce, roughly 150-170k heavy armor heavy shields HIGH speed <2kps vs 200mps> high structure MODULAR construction damage veries with weapon type, FREE REPAIRS now, the drone costs just as much, but it's only advantage is you dont have to pay for it's guns..fun eh?
yess a thorax with 8 drones is going to eat you're frigite formation...THAT IS WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO. and YES the battleships drones will eat you if you're stupid
adapt or die...quit trying to change something that in no way requires changeing
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Kennian
Gallente Chosen Path
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Posted - 2004.02.01 08:51:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Kennian on 01/02/2004 08:53:03 just a little info
Ogre heavy drone..
cost to produce, 150000 isk damage 21-27 every 2 seconds
low armor, shields, speed, roughly 30000 isk to repair high lock speed
Tristan heavy Frigite
cost to produce, roughly 150-170k heavy armor heavy shields HIGH speed <2kps vs 200mps> high structure MODULAR construction damage veries with weapon type, FREE REPAIRS now, the drone costs just as much, but it's only advantage is you dont have to pay for it's guns..fun eh?
yess a thorax with 8 drones is going to eat you're frigite formation...THAT IS WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO. and YES the battleships drones will eat you if you're stupid
adapt or die...quit trying to change something that in no way requires changeing
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Mon Palae
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Posted - 2004.02.01 10:42:00 -
[107]
Quote: yess a thorax with 8 drones is going to eat you're frigite formation...THAT IS WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO. and YES the battleships drones will eat you if you're stupid
Everything in the game should have a counter. Drones have no good counter to them. Yes, they can be killed currently with torpedoes or FoF missiles but missiles have a serious nerf on the near horizon. What is already difficult to manage now will become doubly as hard at least when the nerf to missiles occurs.
Does it not strike you as having things a bit askew in EVE when it takes 2 cruise missiles to kill a Frigate and it take 2 cruise missiles to kill a single drone? Drones are supposed to be the equivalent of fighters yet they come close to equaling a frigate in both offense and defense (as a practical matter...take longer to target lock and yes they are weaker but when it takes two cruise missiles to kill either what's the difference really?).
Drones should not equal frigates yet they damn near do. They are supposed to equate to fighters...not frigate analogues.
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Mon Palae
Gallente Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2004.02.01 10:42:00 -
[108]
Quote: yess a thorax with 8 drones is going to eat you're frigite formation...THAT IS WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO. and YES the battleships drones will eat you if you're stupid
Everything in the game should have a counter. Drones have no good counter to them. Yes, they can be killed currently with torpedoes or FoF missiles but missiles have a serious nerf on the near horizon. What is already difficult to manage now will become doubly as hard at least when the nerf to missiles occurs.
Does it not strike you as having things a bit askew in EVE when it takes 2 cruise missiles to kill a Frigate and it take 2 cruise missiles to kill a single drone? Drones are supposed to be the equivalent of fighters yet they come close to equaling a frigate in both offense and defense (as a practical matter...take longer to target lock and yes they are weaker but when it takes two cruise missiles to kill either what's the difference really?).
Drones should not equal frigates yet they **** near do. They are supposed to equate to fighters...not frigate analogues.
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Sybbiana Dawning
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Posted - 2006.11.26 03:49:00 -
[109]
Here are my feelings on the drone issue(s). I am relatively new to the game, so this isn't the voice of experience as much as application of reasoning and logic.
The interesting aspect about drones, and what seems to be sparking this debate, is that a drone fills the role of a weapon (much as a laser does) and the role of spacecraft. To make arguments based solely on the assertion that a drone is comparable to a frigate is valid, but incomplete, as it leaves out the weapon system aspect; arguments based on drones being floating guns tend to overlook the flight aspect. To add to this, drones are automated and thus act similar to NPCs. Based on these observations, I think that both the advantages and disadvantages attributed to weapons, spacecraft and automated items should apply to drones as well.
Specifically, we know that pilots with the necessary skills and items can essentially hack various systems in an opponent's craft, for instance target jamming, warp scrambling, etc... In keeping with the paradigm established within EVE, it would make sense to state that a pilot can attain the necessary skill(s) and obtain the necessary item(s) to disrupt another pilot's drone control system, possibly with effects as dramatic as over-riding drone control, if the skill set was strong enough. Understand, the pilot attempting to hack the drone pilot's system would have to be substantially stronger in linking and drone control skills than the pilot controlling the drones for this to happen. This would represent the most extreme capability on a spectrum of drone interruption skills, with the lowest level simply being a modest reduction in the drone pilot's maximum drone-control range. Other effects could include reducing drone combat capability; rendering drones inert, but still in the possession of the drone pilot; and causing drones to malfunction completely, exhibiting randomized behavior. Whether these specific suggestions are valid or not, I do feel that the end result is that it should be possible for a person to become an anti-drone skill specialist.
Also note, I am not at all addressing the subject of a frigate's worthiness against drones or against a battleship carrying drones. Only that a pilot should be able to train skills and learn to implement items that allow them to be anti-drone specialists. As with any skill or specialty, a larger craft tends to allow for more options in a pilot's specialization or skill of choice; thus it would be for anti-drone pilots as well.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2006.11.26 03:54:00 -
[110]
Seriously... can we lock every post that has been inactive for over 6 months?
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Talasan
The Bratwurst Burglars
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Posted - 2006.11.26 04:04:00 -
[111]
NECRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "minmatar got the shaft again? sure ill bend over right away" |

Spiderweb
Caldari Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.11.26 04:41:00 -
[112]
Quote: Missiles? Maybe but with the proposed missile nerfs this probably goes out the window too. The only missile that was much use against drones was a torpedo as its splash range could get several. Splash range was nerfed and generally frigates can't carry torps anyway. So it is cruise missiles then. Of course, a standard launcher only carries one cruise missile so you will be reloading a lot and you have 8 drones chasing you.
This is what made me think that hey theres something wronmg about this thread.
the I laughed reading something which is absolutely absurd by todays standard :D
it is really a funny read :) -----------------------------------------------
"Light, in the Darkest of Hours..." |

Aeaus
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.11.26 05:00:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile Seriously... can we lock every post that has been inactive for over 6 months?
Too logical, will never happen. 
Last Weeks Signature |

EglantinFinfleur
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Posted - 2006.11.26 05:04:00 -
[114]
RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE
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D'onryu Shoqui
Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.11.26 05:09:00 -
[115]
sure you can have this change but i want to be able to kill your turrets and missiles launchers with drones leaving your ship defenceless to ------------------------- I am a nobody of IMP my views are my own. |

Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.26 05:19:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 26/11/2006 05:24:41 some of a *****, freaking uber necro.
I went and replied to a 2004 post. 
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2006.11.26 05:26:00 -
[117]
Originally by: EglantinFinfleur RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE
Altered Beast ftw.
Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Znathsume
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Posted - 2006.11.26 06:43:00 -
[118]
Yes keep whining and moaning . Frigates can warp scramble a battleship class ship , they can web a battleship , they can even jam it .For me eve lacks a lot in reality considering the size class differences. I remember when 1 torpedo could kill a frigate , now even heavy missiles do only 30-40 dmg against frigates . Just because you cant get your 20k worth frigate and screw up a 100 mil worth bs and still not get killed you come here proposing another ridiculus changes.
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velocoraptor
Gallente Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.11.26 07:38:00 -
[119]
Torpedoes doing splash dmg, standard launchers fitted with one cruise missile  .
OMG this necro-thread is living history!!!111 I'll bump it dailly \o/
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Nocturnal Prince
Tech 2 Holdings Limited
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Posted - 2006.11.26 10:49:00 -
[120]
/me gets the shotgun and chainsaw and goes out to kill Zombie Threads.
Come get some...
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