whats the motto of eve "HTFU or go back to WoW"

Look for that thread about how the more people locking onto one target, the slower the lock times become for subsequent enemies, then bump that.

ever one has to agree its a problem and get CCP to fix it

clearly i all ready have taken my point in that thread, and it is not going any where.

clearly you have chosen to go the route of the troll and over look the point of the post because it was not in giant neon letters





i am speaking of the only tactics there are in a large scale battle, the HAY GUYS EVERYONE SHOOT X.

It's not a problem. You have failed already.



Take the hint.

they have logies = ALPHA THEM OFF
they have ECM = ALPHA THEM OFF
DPS = ALPHA THEM OFF
you see there FC = ALPHA THEM OFF

Here's and idea to "fix" the "alpha" "problem".
Instead, acknowledge that "bring more" is a valid strategy and there's nothing you can do to stop people from doing it. Instead, you can make it way less effective without coordination. If 50 ships can kill one in a single shot, and you bring 200 ships and do nothing but focus fire, you will be wasting 75% of your potential. Killing speed-wise, you are no better than a 50 man fleet.

no that's called having 1 answer, tactics are used to out smart the person your fighting



i hate to say it but a game of COD, being the pile of crap it is has more tactics in it then a large scale null sec fight.

no that's called having 1 answer, tactics are used to out smart the person your fighting



i hate to say it but a game of COD, being the pile of crap it is has more tactics in it then a large scale null sec fight.

if I'm holding a shotgun to your head and 2 seconds from pulling the trigger and introducing you to god, why the hell do I need to outsmart you? by this point I think I already did.

no the out come of the next 2 seconds clearly rely on, your stance, the way your holding the gun, what side of me your on, and whether i'm injured or not.

given the correct training and the correct use of disarming techniques you could be the one losing.

clearly i all ready have taken my point in that thread, and it is not going any where.

"Flanking" is something that could be interesting - is it possible to do that in EVE? It says the main goal of flanking is to restrict movement, which I suppose the bubble does now.

A variation on that though, is radio jamming - what if someone could disrupt the enemies fleet chat? (everyone would go to voice/TS3, etc, but it would certainly make things interesting. Perhaps too disruptive for a computer game, though, which is hardly a life or death situation...)

i have a strong dislike for large scale Fleet fights, only because I have never run one and don't know what goes into them at all.

"Camouflage", I guess, has transformed into cloaking, but to be consistent with that idea, if I'm "found", I can be "lost" again if I use the right tactics. So why can't I cloak if someone has target-lock on me? I'm technically harmless while cloaked, right? (I'm sure someone will come up with a gameplay reason why that would be "overpowered", but that's just an example.)

"Deception" would be interesting - what if I could disguise myself as blue temporarily and warp into the middle of an enemy fleet - surprise!
Or disguise myself as an asteroid, as has been mentioned in other threads.

"ECM" you all know and love - I'm sure 200 Falcons dropping in to say "Hi" are welcomed with open arms!
A variation on that though, is radio jamming - what if someone could disrupt the enemies fleet chat? (everyone would go to voice/TS3, etc, but it would certainly make things interesting. Perhaps too disruptive for a computer game, though, which is hardly a life or death situation...)

"Flanking" is something that could be interesting - is it possible to do that in EVE? It says the main goal of flanking is to restrict movement, which I suppose the bubble does now.

A futuristic equivalent of fortifications could be the projection of a force-field around whom you suspect to be the alpha-target - something projected by logis for example, that can absorb enormous amounts of firepower, perhaps blocking out-going weapons fire, and having longish cycle times, to balance it. Would that force/encourage the selection of multiple alpha-targets by the other fleet, perhaps with bluffing attacks on false-alphas so logis protect the wrong target?

im starting to wonder when someones going to post proof that 300+ man fleets do more than



Shoot X

fleet shoots


o yea that's right, there is none.

---

side note


who fly's a logie in 300+ man fleets, would you please tell the rest of EvE what you do in said fleets. ( besides get insta poped)

Please post evidence then that fleets this size can do more than just shoot each other until the others structure goes to 0?

Oh wait, you can't.

im starting to wonder when someones going to post proof that 300+ man fleets do more than

Shoot X

fleet shoots

o yea that's right, there is none.

who fly's a logie in 300+ man fleets, would you please tell the rest of EvE what you do in said fleets. ( besides get insta poped)

HER DE DERP


make up your mind 1 post says OMFG WE R DO MORE THAN SHOOT X

your next post says LOLOL ALL WE CAN DO IS SHOOT X

It's not a problem. You have failed already.



Take the hint.

Make items that are in the line of sight of the target break locks. So if your buddy in the fleet is bettween you and the target you have to move to a position that gives you a line of sight on the target.

Oh the irony of true reign decrying tactics on the forums

070707m8m8m8 maybe you should just hug the station more, not agress then you can dock when yellow boxed ;););)

I spend a alot of the time outnumbered several hundred to 1. The trick is to pick your targets well and be ready to gtfo.

No changes needed, just smarter brave pilots.

I agree, there is no need for an change.. .
But improving current mechanics to allow everyone in blob to actually learn how to fly and what to do .. sound like good strategy to increase pilots willing to contribute.

Thats the job of the alliance and FC

Its not a problem at all.

If 100 or more ships the same size as yours are shooting you at once, you should be destroyed very quickly.

Sure, but if the current combat style is effective and it is .. for sure. I cant see any FC who actually want to win trying to make said fight engaging and fun.

Sure there is several rooms in fleet which are pretty much interesting to be in..
interdictors for one, forward, backward scouts etc. Warp in, warp out point guys...
Stealthbomber squads etc. but it can be fun even for regular guy in tempest or hurricane

i for one prefer the mass blob, as all i do is listen and execute the orders.. And i am part of the fight.
But i can imagine there are people who actually wants some challenge

I actually agree with this, the problem with EVE isn't the fact that numbers are how you win this game, it's the fact that numbers are the only way to win in this game.

I mean, can't we have some options that at least allow a lone player to take down at least a few more ships than them if they are skilled enough? What about being able to suicide and take a bunch with them? What about using the environment to hide properly or something that doesn't revolve around cloaking technology that prevents them from being scanned?

Why can't I do stuff like in sci-fi movies where they turn off everything except oxygen and stop the enemy from being able to detect me? Nothing like that is in EVE aside from cloaking and that's bloody expensive for something you use just to hide and use hit and run tactics with.

Stacking penalties on weapon fire.

Someone fires 100 missiles on one target - and all the missiles survive - lol wut?
The larger the ship - the more ships can shoot it.
The smaller the ship - the less ships can shoot it.

Break off fleets into real squads and wings. With REAL squad commanders and wing commanders.

wn a much larger one simply by using small 1 to 5 man gangs all over the place with good pilots.

i have a better idea

bring more friends

lmao

Yes, but you'd also need new FC tools to help them manage multiple targets and multiple squads, which increases the complexity of the project, although I'm sure most FC's would like some better tools to do their job, such as a multi-tiered approach
e.g. FC multi-selects a bunch of targets and drags them over a squad commander and leaves it up to that SC to prioritise targets; at a higher level, someone would drag one fleet over a destination, and send others to another destination, with a strategic point of view.

(sorry for the details in a non-F&I thread, but +1 for getting the devs to look into the blob issue.)

Although I haven't experienced it yet, hands up all those who actually enjoy being blobbed, with a 10 or 100 to one ratio, knowing you can never win, week after week after week. This is a game, not a simulator - it's supposed to be enjoyable (which is not against the idea that it can still be harsh and challenging).

You got blobbed, lost your shiny ship, and come to the EVE-O forums to whine about it.

Its not a problem at all.

If 100 or more ships the same size as yours are shooting you at once, you should be destroyed very quickly.

Last time my corp went into IRC space with 15 guys we had 80+ get dumped on us. We killed 3-4 times more than they did over 3 systems before they snapped our back. Our survivors limped home happy, IRC swaggered home with a victory.

Everyone was happy.

Hate this idea.

Any reason behind such an emotional response?

Its the only solution really, nothing else would work.

It's not a problem.

Edit: Off topic part removed, CCP Phantom.

i have a strong dislike for large scale Fleet fights, only because they are simple and have no tactics in them* i see something as broken in EvE when there is only 1 answer to a problem, and right now the only answer in large scale fleets is EVERYONE SHOOT X.


EVERYONE SHOOT X should not be the only answer to fight.




*yes i know there are many more layers in a fleet but ti still comes down to The Alpha Problem.
they have logies = ALPHA THEM OFF
they have ECM = ALPHA THEM OFF
DPS = ALPHA THEM OFF
you see there FC = ALPHA THEM OFF

The Alpha Problem.

Any reason behind such an emotional response?

Its the only solution really, nothing else would work.

And that is how it should be..
"some" change will actually reward people who knows what they doing.. but if they are greatly outnumbered they will still "lose"

Any reason behind such an emotional response?

Its the only solution really, nothing else would work.

I agree that large scale combat needs to be a bit more dynamic and exciting but if you dont take part then you dont have any reason to post this thread.

The main thing here that needs to be changed is SOV mechanics. And probably titan guns, but I'll leave that for someone else to ***** about.

Guys lets punish people for having friends and being organised.

I want to :facepalm: so hard right now. Quit begging CCP to change things, Quit it. The entire problem is the EVE Community.

We can compare current fleet doctrines to current fast food chains. It is easier to throw several lesser skilled pilots into a heap we call a fleet and tell them what to shoot. Just worry about anchoring on X and shooting A, B and C.

There is nothing preventing a group if highly skilled and experienced players from developing tactics that are far more efficient and far more tactical.

The problem then is trying to find a group of highly skilled and experienced players. :lol:


The general homogenizing of everything in EVE in the interest of "fairness" will only serve to eliminate tactical options and opportunities. This is a sandbox FFS start playing it like one. /rant

Depends on what you count as a loss. We might lose the entire fleet but so long as we kill more isk worth of ships we are happy.

It was our own mistake that killed us in the end so tbh, EVE doesnt need changed as its good pilots make all the difference. Some of the best pilots are in fact nubs as they dont have any bad habbits and think they are invincible so they know no fear. Stick them in a rifter, teach them all you know, take them on roams and you will quickly have a good pilot.

There are a few good arguments in here, and I'm hardly in a position to dispute them, but this prompted me to look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_tactics, and compare it.

I would guess that "Force concentration" is what people are complaining about, but it would be interesting if some of the other tactics were more viable in this game. Obviously, things involving weather or terrain don't really apply to a space environment (and hiding behind asteroids and using "smoke-screens" of some kind would involve line-of-sight calculations which people have argued against in other threads).

"Camouflage", I guess, has transformed into cloaking, but to be consistent with that idea, if I'm "found", I can be "lost" again if I use the right tactics. So why can't I cloak if someone has target-lock on me? I'm technically harmless while cloaked, right? (I'm sure someone will come up with a gameplay reason why that would be "overpowered", but that's just an example.)

"Deception" would be interesting - what if I could disguise myself as blue temporarily and warp into the middle of an enemy fleet - surprise!
Or disguise myself as an asteroid, as has been mentioned in other threads.

"ECM" you all know and love - I'm sure 200 Falcons dropping in to say "Hi" are welcomed with open arms!
A variation on that though, is radio jamming - what if someone could disrupt the enemies fleet chat? (everyone would go to voice/TS3, etc, but it would certainly make things interesting. Perhaps too disruptive for a computer game, though, which is hardly a life or death situation...)

"Flanking" is something that could be interesting - is it possible to do that in EVE? It says the main goal of flanking is to restrict movement, which I suppose the bubble does now.

A futuristic equivalent of fortifications could be the projection of a force-field around whom you suspect to be the alpha-target - something projected by logis for example, that can absorb enormous amounts of firepower, perhaps blocking out-going weapons fire, and having longish cycle times, to balance it. Would that force/encourage the selection of multiple alpha-targets by the other fleet, perhaps with bluffing attacks on false-alphas so logis protect the wrong target?
(Clarification: a force-field prevents damage, whereas a logi heals damage already done, therefore it's different to just having extra logis)

Don't worry, goonswarm will do CCP's job and troll him off the bored like the rest of these vile pundits who want a fun game to play.

really?

when do you figure that will happen

page 10?

i have a better idea

bring more friends

lmao

Don't worry, goonswarm will do CCP's job and troll him off the bored like the rest of these vile pundits who want a fun game to play.

You have been flagged by the RMT Propaganda machine.
Your forum days are numbered.

Show of support for getting dev time for fixing the Alpha problem.

we all know the HP buff did nothing to curb the Alpha problem

we know there's a large part of eve that hates the Alpha problem

we know there a large part of EvE that wish for a more tactic's filled game*

Asking CCP to fix Alpha? What, are you nuts? And how exactly are the Goons supposed to rule Eve if they fixed that?
I mean really have you thought this through? If you did that you might actually have fleets of varying sizes roaming Zero and then the next thing you know we would have smaller groups trying to enter Zero.

The next thing you will probably be asking for is some mechanism other than gate ganks at the entry points. Geez, not long after that we would have random people wandering all over Zero looking for a fight.... Nooo! we can't allow that! Sorry...

but can we get a CCP Forum Moderator to just shut this thread down please and ban everyone even suggesting such an idea. Let's do that right now, otherwise the Developers will have to do a lot of coding.


Sheesh! What was that guy thinking!

This will be the death of Eve.

As a player, I have no interest in serving in this type of group.
As a subscriber, I will not pay for this type of a game.
You have lost two paying subscriptions that I am involved with because of it.
How many potential subscribers have you failed to keep as well CCP?

Nerf anything that causes me to lose

As you already pointed out, "jamming" in-game comms is completely useless. Messing with out of game comms does happen at alliance level, and is one of the hardest hits you can inflict to a fleet.

Except logis will end up forcing every fight to a stalemate.

Fun fights, indeed.

If you want to add more tactics, then CCP should do something about the on-grid probing. That's killing off the age-old tactics of sniping, and is a much smaller change than pissing about with trying to do weird things like "fixing the alpha problem".

^ fixing that problem would be moving in the right way, but it in no way solves all of the problems of null combat

you end up with 2 types of alpha fleets long range and med range.


so long as the best solution in large fights stays EVERYONE SHOOT X its still broken.

---

i welcome the return of sniper fleets

One question: Why do you think "alpha" is being used?

As already stated, Eve already suffers from an overtanking problem. It is already really hard to break through an abaddon fleet if one fourth or one third of it consists of guardians/archons (kinda similar thing with drakes and scimis on bc level). Reducing the number of ships that can lock a (hostile) target would just make it ridiculous.

The alpha doctrine (mael or baddon) was specifically designed as a way around this. It is not however the best way, it is just the simplest one and is the least demanding on your average Joe McF1. Furthermore, the fleet doesn't work if it's size goes under certain critical mass. If anything, I would lobby for somewhat reducing the ehp across the board so that stuff would die faster.

How to fight and win against the blob?

Dont engage the blob.

Be in more places than the blob can be at all at once.

Definelty let the enemies blob for no reason its a real moral killer after doing this against them for a month.

Have nothing the blob can destroy while you are all alseep.

Pick off stragglers.

What constitutes a blob? Where do blobs most commonly appear?

What constitutes a blob? Where do blobs most commonly appear?

Give everyone a Doomsday, they who select the most targets and pull the trigger first wins.... Problem solved.

Guys lets punish people for having friends and being organised.

True, but wouldn't it be nice to have Eagle be FOTM for once?

We do indeed need to have a way to discourage blobs, or at least to discourage "primary 1-2-3" fighting, but I have not seen any ideas that are not broken by design, or easily exploited (like the stacking penalty for targeting thing).

Ok, so if changing core mechanics or having fancy modules doesn't really solve the problem (if it is one, as some consider it valid gameplay), would just having better FC tools enable alternative gameplay, without forcing it? Things such as letting an FC select 10 targets to spread the fire around a little more efficiently (perhaps with a randomise option so people don't just target the first one on the list)? Basically, keep the sandboxxy-ness - give them the tools, and see what they do with it?

+1 OP for content, though your delivery is costing you some support I think.

It has already been said. To get on the killmail.

Altho i would change allow to demand .. just to be on spot..
Something what Taiwanistan said on the other thread... simultaneous attack on three spots .. to weaken an sovereignty then the "HQ" or something like that..

[...] until we have 3000+ in a system and CCP are bitching at us for stuffing too many people in to one system.

Nope, because out-of-game comms are mostly used for target calling anyway, and FCs focus fire in order to be absolutely sure to get the target. Some better FC tools would be nice (like hotkeys for broadcasting targets) but most importantly FCs need an incentive to shoot more than one person at once, whether that's provided by mechanics, or something else.

Ok, so did out-of-game comms (or EVE-Voice) become better because the in-game tools were crap, or will voice always be better regardless of the tools available?

What about a hierarchical fleet window integrated with voice (don't know if you can do that with external tools such as TeamSpeak) where the FC clicks on a level (such as all fleet members, just wing commanders, just an individual wing, etc) and voice-comms are then filtered to just that selection, so people aren't swamped with commands that aren't relevant to them?
Also, from the other end, individual wings could have open comms relevant to their wing without swamping the rest of the fleet.

...

What you would propose in this thread is to swing the nerf bat and eliminate or hinder the ability of a fleet to concentrate its fire for no logical reason because you think itGÇÖs an unfair advantage. I would argue that what needs to be done is some analysis of the problem of the 1000 man alpha blob in order to counter it with new tactics. There are disadvantages to the 1000 man alpha blob, flexibility and the ability to react quickly being two that spring to mind immediately. In my opinion FCs need to learn how to maneuver their fleets as well as they direct their fire. I also think that the answer to the 1000 man alpha blob lies in the use of multiple small highly coordinated and maneuverable fleets to take full advantage of the GÇÿblobGÇÖ part of the 1000 man alpha blob.
Remember, in War, if itGÇÖs a fair fight, youGÇÖre doing it wrong.
Just my .02

any FC is calling down fire from 1000 ships onto one should be primaried themselves and fired from their job as FC. that is only slightly better then a free for all shoot out.

a good fleet will split their fire into smaller groups that will take out a ship in one to three shots. these fire groups should be made up ships with similar rates of fire and locking speed because if they are not then you will run into situations where some people are just not firing and this is a loss in damage.

it has been a long time since i have been part of a big fleet battle, i retired from nulsec when i made this toon, so i cant comment on the current situation, but i really hope that the large alliances havent resorted to such lazy tactics.

many modern military tactics work very well in eve, they just are not used used that much, or i havent seen them used, but if FCs and alliance officials put some through into what they are doing they would do a lot better on the battle field.

I agree with this, but the trouble is, this basically requires FCs to be taught about tactics, requiring some dedication that the average player probably doesn't want to deal with. Hence the shortage of good FCs.

I wonder what would happen to this game if 50% of the FCs went on holiday, or played Skyrim, for a month...

this

a smart FC would be using wings or even individual smaller fleets who can focus plenty of alpha on multiple primaries while still retaining superior mobility

You'll find that's how all EVE combat is, large scale or not. If you take a 3v3 fight, if all 3 concentrate on burning down the other fleet 1 by 1, while the other fleet is shooting at their own targets, the fleet taking down the other guys 1 by 1 will win because they reduce the incoming DPS by 33% way before the other fleet has taken down anyone. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the fleet taking down the other fleet 1 by 1 were to survive without a loss. Add logistics to the picture, and this gets even worse.

The only way you can realistically get "better combat" in EVE, is if they reworked the entire flight mechanics to be more like X-Wing etc. Good luck with that. Apart from that, the only thing you can hope for is that CCP rework things like the SOV mechanics so it's more natural to spread out your forces rather than throw up to 3k people into the same system.

Focus firing really should be changed so it is not the only viable tactic for viable fleet fights.

Whether that's a logistics nerf in addition to restricted targeting, a form of space 'terrain' to stop ships sitting in huge blobs where every ship can readily fire at every other ship, fortress shield thing to defend your fleet or split another, or any other number of crazy schemes, fleet combat needs to have strategic depth similar to an RTS, and less like whack-a-mole.

Focus firing really should be changed so it is not the only viable tactic for viable fleet fights.

How to fight and win against the blob?

Dont engage the blob.

Be in more places than the blob can be at all at once.

Definelty let the enemies blob for no reason its a real moral killer after doing this against them for a month.

Have nothing the blob can destroy while you are all alseep.

Pick off stragglers.

focus firing isn't the only viable tactic though. just because its widely used doesnt make it good.

lets have a fake fleet fight a nice 500vs500, for simplicity sake lets say they are all the same on both sides they can lock instantly and follow orders without problem

fleet 1 lazy FC only call one primary at a time, fleet 2 splits fire between 2 primaries

first round fleet 1 losses 2 ships, fleet 2 loses one
second round fleet 1 has lost 4 ships fleet 2 has lost 2
third round fleet 1 has lost 6 ships fleet 2 has lost 3

see the problem? fleet one is focusing fire and is loosing very fast.

Now if you want to get really efficient then take a fight like this same fleet but this time fleet two splits their ships into 10 different wings each with their own commanders directing fire (it would be silly to expect one person to direct 10 different wings at the same time) and one FC commanding movement of the fleet as a whole and special "priority" targets.

first round fleet 1 looses 10 ships fleet 2 loose 1
second round fleet 1 has lost 20 ships fleet 2 has lost 2
third round fleet 1 has lost 30 ships fleet 2 has lost three

50 ships firing on one target will make short work of that target you are then not wasting so much damage on over kill.

this will be the third time i say this but i really needs to be said again, focus firing is bad and should be stopped.....at a player level.

Now if you want to get really efficient then take a fight like this same fleet but this time fleet two splits their ships into 10 different wings each with their own commanders directing fire (it would be silly to expect one person to direct 10 different wings at the same time) and one FC commanding movement of the fleet as a whole and special "priority" targets.

Let me introduce you to the concept of the bomb.

if only alpha from 1 wing can instakill target. Let's say you have 10 ships in wing. Not sure they will blow target. Then logistics can work and next alpha will need to kill almost helthy target.

this is the main problem with splitting fire. Distance, tracking speed, resistances.... Many things do matter here.

line of sight.

so yea, i wonder if i could get a forum mod to come in and clean up the thread.

so yea, i wonder if i could get a forum mod to come in and clean up the thread.

hi I'm from wow, just here to tell you wow pvp is often all about alpha too

well, bye

Dumb Stuffz

Sperg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcA5g59Zsg

Won't work. LOS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WERqUb0G6vQ

LOL WUT.



Ya, LoS never would work ever, cause, everyone had a 100% clear shot in all those correct?

Sub caps were all cool ya?

Also maller? lolwut. I was more in the carrier level here (at least BS) taking like DD hits rather than the super cap...

Not some maller covering a ceptor rofl or something dumb.

Also I never said that was the hole idea behind it, I said it opened it up.

I mean really, you think the fleets in those vids would have taken 0 FF damage with LOS?
You really think you could alpha one cane if everyone did not fire at the sametime?

Idk.... looks like to me you would have FF damage, as well as, how are you gona hit one on the back side or in the middle with 0 shots hitting any other ship? lol come on.

Talking about a maller just shows us you have to think a blob is 10 people lol.

It's a tactic used in Guild Wars (called "spiking" there) and doubtlessly other MMOs as well. Call it remote rep, healing, or whatever you want, it makes spikes/alpha necessary. However, sometimes hitting their whole team at once is the right strategy.

What the issue in Eve is is that, in the absence of remote rep, it is far easier to coordinate a "primary X; primary Y; primary Z" fleet, and no real advantage to tactically spreading fire.

there is literally no difference between "jam the zealot, primary the guardian" and "hex the mage, sit on the priest"

none