Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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And who in the whole EVE world use T1 sniper ships? Maybe Goons, but thats it.. dont pull up such stuf like, if we all would use only T1 ships, the Rokh would be fine...

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Not kiting in med range? Why not? keep somebody at 25-30 km and give him hell with EMP ammo and a huge bbq damage. And dont bring up this "well then i would use a tier 2 BC...", everybody knows they make the HACs look sad.

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My god you are dense. The point is to illustrate the effectiveness of the eagle. They must use tech 1 ammo since they cant hit things with tech 2 ammo. A Rokh outdamages the Rokh at all meaningful sniper ranges. It only gets BETTER for the rokh as ranges increase when using tech 1 ammo.

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You obviously dont know what medium range means. And the Muninn blows at kiting ships. Why not just fly a vagabond, more speed more med/low slots and a falloff bonus. The muninn sucks **** at that role. You dont kite with arties when you have a falloff boosed autocannon counterpart. Not that you would want to kite with arties anyway, not unless you had a nice web range bonus and a bunch of mids.

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Not that you would want to kite with arties anyway, not unless you had a nice web range bonus and a bunch of mids.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Why would you want to web something in a muninn? It can go 2.5km/s without gang bonus with not much problems if you fit it to stay at 30km. Which ship besides a Vaga or Interceptor will catch it?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Why would you want to web something in a muninn? It can go 2.5km/s without gang bonus with not much problems if you fit it to stay at 30km. Which ship besides a Vaga or Interceptor will catch it?

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A rifter.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Well when you tell me a rokh outdamage a hyperion with antimatter as a sniper, im gonan laugh at you becuase antimatter is not sniping.

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You take said muninn. You load high damage ammo. You take a huginn, you web. Wow, damage ammo optimal lines up with the hugins web range... imagine that? Now you release muninns drones, and... holy cow, your dps puts a 5 turret eagle to absolute shame... thats how muninn works, fitting it up with tracking enhancers and all the crap is only a second bonus it gets.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Why would you want to web something in a muninn? It can go 2.5km/s without gang bonus with not much problems if you fit it to stay at 30km. Which ship besides a Vaga or Interceptor will catch it?

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A rifter.

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And how long wit it take the rifter to make 30km against a speed of 2.5km/s? And how long will it survive against the Muninn (not that it will have problems with 5 light drones after it really made it to catch up...)?

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the Rokh outdamages the hyperion at every range over that range when using tech 1 ammo.

How hard is this to understand?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 12/08/2007 01:34:01

Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Why would you want to web something in a muninn? It can go 2.5km/s without gang bonus with not much problems if you fit it to stay at 30km. Which ship besides a Vaga or Interceptor will catch it?

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A rifter.

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And how long wit it take the rifter to make 30km against a speed of 2.5km/s? And how long will it survive against the Muninn (not that it will have problems with 5 light drones after it really made it to catch up...)?

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Not very long.

The muninn is not a solo ship. And there are much better mid range options.


ed: Also a muninn with all skills to 5 and a tech 2 MWD hits 1850m/s, not 2500.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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the Rokh outdamages the hyperion at every range over that range when using tech 1 ammo.

How hard is this to understand?

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and how hard to unerstand that a sniper battlesihp neccesitates t2 ammo? lmao. Hyperion outdamages rokh in every sniping range that matters. So does the megathron, and its cheaper. How hard is it to understand that?

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Put 1 mass rig and 1 overdrive... BEHOLD!

Add: even if you take a rifter going 5km/sec, that will give him a 2.5km/s realtive to you, how many volley can he take?

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Not very, as i have said many times, i was using this as an example of the power of the range bonus when using tech 1 ammo.

The snipers we are discussing use tech 1 ammo. They use tech 1 ammo because they cant hit the desired targets with tech 2 ammo. It doesnt track well enough. An Eagle will do over twice the DPS of a muninn at the Muninns optimal range if the Muninn is using tech 2 ammo due to tracking.

If you are shooting at cruiser sized targets then the tech 1 fitted battleships you so malign will do about twice the DPS with commensurate alpha increase than the tech 2 fitted HAC snipers.

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2 slot tank + kinetic rig, i got 84.6/75.4/72.7/75.4 on shield with a med booster.. with its speed and range, it should do very nice.

I will do some number crunshing now to if t2 long range ammo will have any tracking issues .

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Its a bad example... sure rokh does more damage at 60km then hyperion. Has nothing to do with an eagle needing a 5th turret slot. So far you've managed to ignore anything of importance, and the smiple fact is the eagle needs another turret slot to make it balanced. Please stop trolling and derailing the thread with useless posts now, k thx.

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It will have tracking issues if the target is moving with a pretty decent transversal., no big deal though, will hit a lot of stuff just fine.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Ok i hope my math still works:

I took a 250mm rail on an eagle with t1 ammo, tracking 0.02875 rad.

This should be bring us to 1.637¦/s.

At a distance of 100km this will lead to a tracking of pretty precise 17km/s with t1 ammo, so you can track 4.25km/s transversal with spike, maxed skill and without any tracking mods.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Ok i hope my math still works:

I took a 250mm rail on an eagle with t1 ammo, tracking 0.02875 rad.

This should be bring us to 1.637¦/s.

At a distance of 100km this will lead to a tracking of pretty precise 17km/s with t1 ammo, so you can track 4.25km/s transversal with spike, maxed skill and without any tracking mods.

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Your math skills dont work.

First off an eagle with tech 1 amm will track .0511 rads or so.

At 100km you will hit an inty 80% of the time if its traveling 4000m/s.

With 1/4 that[tech 2 ammo] you will hit 7% of the time.

2000m/s transversal you are at 97% for the tech 1 and 50% for the tech 2.

The eagle is the only one with the range to hit decently with tech 2 ammo[about 80% at 200km]

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 12/08/2007 03:11:07

Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Ok i hope my math still works:

I took a 250mm rail on an eagle with t1 ammo, tracking 0.02875 rad.

This should be bring us to 1.637¦/s.

At a distance of 100km this will lead to a tracking of pretty precise 17km/s with t1 ammo, so you can track 4.25km/s transversal with spike, maxed skill and without any tracking mods.

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Your math skills dont work.

First off an eagle with tech 1 amm will track .0511 rads or so.

At 100km you will hit an inty 80% of the time if its traveling 4000m/s.

With 1/4 that[tech 2 ammo] you will hit 7% of the time.

2000m/s transversal you are at 97% for the tech 1 and 50% for the tech 2.

The eagle is the only one with the range to hit decently with tech 2 ammo[about 80% at 200km]

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How do you get 0.0511 rad from an eagle? T2 250mm rails have 0.023 rad base..

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Well as i said, i took my numbers without mods to keep them easy to use with fitting additions. But i will throw away my math and use the tracking computer from the guide.. it seems to know all the little facts to calculate a decent chance to hit.

Well if you fit 3 MFS 1 TE and 2 TC you are running awefull low on slotssince you need at very least 1 sensor booster, better 2.

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No, its a perfect example, the weapons have the better damage ratios in favor of the short range ship, better range differences in favor of the short range ship, and still the Rokh outdamages the hyperion at all ranges above 60km.

This is what a 5 turret eagle would look like, it would outdamage them all in all sniping ranges. That is unbalanced.

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Your math skills dont work.

First off an eagle with tech 1 amm will track .0511 rads or so.

At 100km you will hit an inty 80% of the time if its traveling 4000m/s.

With 1/4 that[tech 2 ammo] you will hit 7% of the time.

2000m/s transversal you are at 97% for the tech 1 and 50% for the tech 2.

The eagle is the only one with the range to hit decently with tech 2 ammo[about 80% at 200km]

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Not a lot of usefull stuff. If you are shooting tech 2 ammo you might as well be using a tech 1 battleship.[unless you can hit to 200km, which only the eagle can]

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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I am impressed... you made the worst onetrick-pony i have ever seen just to put out 190 dps (thats without resistances) at 100km with faction ammo. I am aware that it can still put out 150 dps at 190km with spike, but omg do you see that fitting?

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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ROFL, dude your just talking out you ass. The rokh DOES NOT outperform the hyperion at all ranges above 60km. I'm sorry you don't understand SPIKE munitions, but they allow the hype to outperform the rokh at all useful sniping ranges... you do realize that battleships generally require t2 guns..?

Please stop derailing the thread, you have no idea what your talking about.

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YOu've just furthured my point that the muninn isnt supposed to be a dedicated sniper, while the eagle is. Muninn has a drone bay, and will have tracking issues as you have expertly pointed out. This suggests it is in fact meant to be abit closer and do awesome damage.

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so the only thing thats useful to hit is an inty?... not much need to hit an inty unless hes trying ot tackle you, and if he flies towards you... you will hit him.

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Yes, i understand spike. I am ignoring spike for the purpose of the example because the eagle and Muninn cannot hit their intended targets with long range tech 2 ammo at the ranges the muninn engages at.

Do you understand the concept of tracking? Tracking really does matter.

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Yes, i understand spike. I am ignoring spike for the purpose of the example because the eagle and Muninn cannot hit their intended targets with long range tech 2 ammo at the ranges the muninn engages at.

Do you understand the concept of tracking? Tracking really does matter.

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An inty should be able to get 2000m/s transversal on you pretty easily. 1500 is cake. When they are doing that... guess what! Tech 1 ammo is the way to go.

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It does not do this. Many other ships do this much much better.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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So wait a second.. are you talking about sniping rokhs, and hyperions or eagles and muninns? I'm pretty sure you said the rokh outdamages the hyperion at all ranges over 60km. Do you need me to quote you? This statement was plain wrong. Where were you talking about sniping inties with a muninn in this statement?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Look at the Rokh. Now imagine that tech 2 ammo wasnt usefull for battleship snipers. Compare the Rokhs damage to the Hyperions damage. The Rokh just cleans it out at all ranges that matter. That is what its would be like with a 5 turret eagle that still had its damage bonus.

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Can you tell me why the muninn has a drone bay and the eagle doesnt if they are both supposed to be snipers? DO you really think a sniping battleships gonna have trouble tracking another sniping battleship, or a dreadnaught, or a cruiser for that matter at 190km? not really.... No fleet fields t1 snipers dude, you need a reality check. 90% of sniping battleships use spike, the rest are people in rokhs lacking the skills for spike.

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And if an inty puts this much transversal on you, his effective speed towards you is heavily diminished. In that case, you just warp away and noone dies. If an inty really wants to tackle you hes gonn ahave to come pretty dead on, and you will hit him.

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are you saying that the muninn's primary role is not a sniper? Thats what I read, and if thats the case, you've further invaldadated your main argument against giving the eagle another turret. Good job champ.

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Or tackle your friends, and no, he wont have to come dead on. A crusader with no rigs, two overdrive IIs, an MWD II, and 5s in the relevent prop skills will go 6131m/s. 2000m/s trasversal will close 5795m/s against you. That will clear the range a Muninn can hit with tech 2 ammo in about 3.5 seconds. The second volley the muninn shoots with tech 2 ammo will all wiff

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Or tackle your friends, and no, he wont have to come dead on. A crusader with no rigs, two overdrive IIs, an MWD II, and 5s in the relevent prop skills will go 6131m/s. 2000m/s trasversal will close 5795m/s against you. That will clear the range a Muninn can hit with tech 2 ammo in about 3.5 seconds. The second volley the muninn shoots with tech 2 ammo will all wiff

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SO basically your saying here that the muninn is a useless sniper...? furthering my argument that muninn's primary role is NOT a sniper, while the eagle's is. You obviously have not flown very many sniping ships, I suggest you go get some experience before talking. Also, i'm not sure how your calculating 3.5 seconds, but it should take at least 25 seconds, but in reality longer since the inty is not flying straight towards the muninn and has to cover more distance. At any rate, muninn's primary role is not a sniper. It has a drone bay, and two missle launchers. Its meant to get up and do some damage. YOu can argue that a cane will have a better alpha bla bla, tier 2 battlecruisers being better then hacs is an entirely different subject. You really should stop comparing the 2. The fact you choose to ignore t2 sniping ammo boggles my mind. Anotehr person made a good sugestion earlier to take out all t2 ammo and change the ammount of damage awarded by the specilization skills. If they did this, the rokh would be able to out damage all other battleships in its effective range, which would rokh

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