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Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 18:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Benn Helmsman Well if you shift the range down to 80 km and keep on to faction ammo due to tracking, the Munnin deals the same damage as the Eagle using Fed Carbonized Lead while the Eagle uses CN Thorium. Just adding missiles to the calculation can shift the calculation to the Eagle (but considering the very very long time until they hit, i wouldnt bet on them). If you use Tremor, the Eagle become clearly outdamaged. Yes, but tremor wont hit the intended targets due to tracking ;) Missiles and drones will never get to the targets in time, so i ingore those as well at decent ranges. The issue is that the eagle isnt so outclassed as many people seem to think at higher ranges, when using t1 ammo[a necessity to hit fast ships] the effect the optimal boosts have becomes more readily apparent. I used those ranges because they are the very tip of the range of the muninn/zealot, and the ammos they are most likly to be using. I cant see a big difference if you start shooting at 100km or at 80km if you can instantpop it at this range with the munnin.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:04:00 - [32] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: bldyannoyed Giving the Eagle a 5th turret, on top of the damage bonus it gets for HAC, coupled with the fact that any sensible Eagle ftting can comfortably accomodate 4 250 II rails, a full injected shield tank AND 3 MFS II, would simply mean it out DPS'ing ANY other HAC at ANY given range, assuming the other HAC's are fitting a some kind of tank, and not just a full gank fit. 1) No it can't. The Eagle can fit 4x 250mm II rails, MWD and sniping gear, but just barely. Adding a cap injector, booster, and useful things in the extra high slots requires fitting mods... and that means you aren't fitting 3x MFS IIs. 2) A 3-slot tank (what you get after fitting MWD/injector) is not that impressive. The HAC resists are nice, but this is far from game-breaking. 3) The Eagle will NOT out-dps all other HACs, for the simple reason that rails have low base damage compared to other weapons. It will out-dps some HACs for the simple reason that it out-ranges them as well (since any damage is greater than zero), but it will not be some all-range solo pwnmobile. 4) Have you ever actually used 250mm rails? The tracking on them is awful, you won't be out-dps-ing much at close/medium range because you can't hit anything. Quote: Its got range, damage ( with 3 MFS which theres no reason not to fit ) Except for the need to fit a tank. The Eagle can only fit 3x MFS in full sniper setup, and that means no tank and no all-range pwnmobile. Quote: and due to its resist bonus the best tank of any HAC, except possibly the Sacrilege. Until you try to fit a MWD and cap injector to sustain your tank. Suddenly even without tackling, you're down to 3 slots to tank with, and your tank isn't really any better than other HACs. 4x 250II LSBII,, medium electrochem injector, SBA II, photon II, Invuln II 3x MFS II Tracking enhancer II ACR, em screen 80/80/85/90 resists 250 DPS at 46km with CN AM At 45km, 250 tracking is just fine. You want bad tracking, use artillery. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:13:00 - [33] Originally by: bldyannoyed 4x 250II LSBII,, medium electrochem injector, SBA II, photon II, Invuln II 3x MFS II Tracking enhancer II ACR, em screen 80/80/85/90 resists 250 DPS at 46km with CN AM At 45km, 250 tracking is just fine. You want bad tracking, use artillery. stay at 46km in a ship that doesnt even haven an AB? sounds like a bad idea.. and you want to put an ACR on that ship, 30M on that slowboat? another idea which doesnt look very good to me.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:16:00 - [34] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: bldyannoyed 4x 250II LSBII,, medium electrochem injector, SBA II, photon II, Invuln II 3x MFS II Tracking enhancer II ACR, em screen 80/80/85/90 resists 250 DPS at 46km with CN AM At 45km, 250 tracking is just fine. You want bad tracking, use artillery. stay at 46km in a ship that doesnt even haven an AB? sounds like a bad idea.. and you want to put an ACR on that ship, 30M on that slowboat? another idea which doesnt look very good to me. Yes Benn, but every idea that anyone else ever has that isn't yours looks like a bad idea to you. That fit works. In a gang that ship can put immediate long range DPS on a target and not instantly melt. And has been said over and over again, price is no issue as far as balance goes. That ship clearly can not work solo, so other people will be doing stuff too. When X target gets called primary you put immediate and reasonable DPS on it. A Deimos would be travelling, a Muninn would be at extremem distance to keep itself in one piece because it simply CANNOT tank, and thus be doing less damage than you. A Zealot with bemas might have comparable DPS to you at that range, i havent run the numbers so i dont know, but it certainly wont have as good a tank. So what exactly is wrong with that ship? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:31:00 - [35] Edited by: bldyannoyed on 05/08/2007 19:32:11 Actually, as people seem to be convinced a Deimos can do better ranged damage than an Eagle, i thought id run some numbers. ( Assume HAC 5, AWU 5). Eagle build: 4x 250 II Large Booster II, SAB II, medium electro injector, photon II, invuln II 3x MFS II, RCU II Hybrid Locus coordinator ( fits with hybrid rigging lvl 1 ) EM screen 255 DPS with CN AM with 46km optimal 80/80/85/90 resists Deimos build: ( Will only fit with AWU 5) 5x 250 II Medium electro injector, 2x Tracking compII 2x MAR II, Armor Explosive II, 2x RCU II Em and Explosive Pump 240 DPS with CN AM @ 23km Optimal. 76/74/86/72 resists. I woudl say they have comparable tanks, but quite obviously, the Eagle out DPS's the Deimos AT ALL RANGES. Who knew. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:32:00 - [36] All the crappy caldari gunboats need a boost, make a thread about that instead It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:43:00 - [37] Originally by: bldyannoyed Edited by: bldyannoyed on 05/08/2007 19:32:11 Actually, as people seem to be convinced a Deimos can do better ranged damage than an Eagle, i thought id run some numbers. ( Assume HAC 5, AWU 5). Eagle build: 4x 250 II Large Booster II, SAB II, medium electro injector, photon II, invuln II 3x MFS II, RCU II Hybrid Locus coordinator ( fits with hybrid rigging lvl 1 ) EM screen 255 DPS with CN AM with 46km optimal 80/80/85/90 resists Deimos build: ( Will only fit with AWU 5) 5x 250 II Medium electro injector, 2x Tracking compII 2x MAR II, Armor Explosive II, 2x RCU II Em and Explosive Pump 240 DPS with CN AM @ 23km Optimal. 76/74/86/72 resists. I woudl say they have comparable tanks, but quite obviously, the Eagle out DPS's the Deimos AT ALL RANGES. Who knew. I guess you forgot the 150 dps from 5 Hammerheads II right?
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:45:00 - [38] By the time 5 hammerhead II's had travelled 45km to the Eagle they would ALL BE DEAD. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:48:00 - [39] Originally by: bldyannoyed By the time 5 hammerhead II's had travelled 45km to the Eagle they would ALL BE DEAD. How long will it take the eagle to lock the drones? and even if he managed to shoot one, he looses a lot of damage to a stupid drone. After the drone are close, the eagle is defenseless against them.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 19:52:00 - [40] Edited by: bldyannoyed on 05/08/2007 19:52:05 Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: bldyannoyed By the time 5 hammerhead II's had travelled 45km to the Eagle they would ALL BE DEAD. How long will it take the eagle to lock the drones? and even if he managed to shoot one, he looses a lot of damage to a stupid drone. After the drone are close, the eagle is defenseless against them. Mebbe 5 seconds to lock em, and 2 volleys to pop em. Not that they would make any difference in the long run cos they be beating against the 90% thermal resist the Eagle had, and the Deimos would be long dead before the Eagle even broke a sweat. YOU seem to be forgetting that at 45km the Deimos will have virtually ZERO DPS from its guns, and also has no speed mod cos it couldn't squeeze one in either. So, even with the 150 DPS from the drones, the Eagle still outdamage the Deimos at ranges over about 35km. Exactly like its supposed to. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Merin Ryskin FinFleet	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:05:00 - [41] Originally by: bldyannoyed 4x 250II LSBII,, medium electrochem injector, SBA II, photon II, Invuln II 3x MFS II Tracking enhancer II ACR, em screen 80/80/85/90 resists 250 DPS at 46km with CN AM At 45km, 250 tracking is just fine. You want bad tracking, use artillery. Not acceptable. MWD is mandatory for pvp, period. Not only that, but you're planning on fighting in antimatter range (easily in missile range), but you're leaving two high slots empty.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:10:00 - [42] Edited by: bldyannoyed on 05/08/2007 20:10:16 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: bldyannoyed 4x 250II LSBII,, medium electrochem injector, SBA II, photon II, Invuln II 3x MFS II Tracking enhancer II ACR, em screen 80/80/85/90 resists 250 DPS at 46km with CN AM At 45km, 250 tracking is just fine. You want bad tracking, use artillery. Not acceptable. MWD is mandatory for pvp, period. Not only that, but you're planning on fighting in antimatter range (easily in missile range), but you're leaving two high slots empty. Fine. 4x 250 II LSB II, Medium electro, yt8 MWD, photon II, SBA II 3x MFS II, RCU II em screen, ACR. Optimal drops to 40km, now it has an MWD. But presumably that won't be good enuff either. I assume it wont be a good enuff ship untill it can do 5km/s and has 1000DPS at 200KM. It outperforms all the other HAC's at its designed mid-to-long range, but that doesnt matter. It's been lined up as another whiine to feed the buff Caldari so they can do anything machine. Whatever. I fly one and love it as it is. If you wanna give it an arbitrary 25% DPS go for it, no skin off my nose. And in 6 months when the forums break under the strain of the anti-caldari whines we'll all remember why. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:14:00 - [43] Originally by: bldyannoyed Edited by: bldyannoyed on 05/08/2007 19:52:05 Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: bldyannoyed By the time 5 hammerhead II's had travelled 45km to the Eagle they would ALL BE DEAD. How long will it take the eagle to lock the drones? and even if he managed to shoot one, he looses a lot of damage to a stupid drone. After the drone are close, the eagle is defenseless against them. Mebbe 5 seconds to lock em, and 2 volleys to pop em. Not that they would make any difference in the long run cos they be beating against the 90% thermal resist the Eagle had, and the Deimos would be long dead before the Eagle even broke a sweat. YOU seem to be forgetting that at 45km the Deimos will have virtually ZERO DPS from its guns, and also has no speed mod cos it couldn't squeeze one in either. So, even with the 150 DPS from the drones, the Eagle still outdamage the Deimos at ranges over about 35km. Exactly like its supposed to. I would say thats because of your fitting, i would rather fit it that way: 1x 800mm RT Plate 1x DCU II 1x EANM II 1x Armor Exp Hardener II 1x MFS II 1x RC II 1x 10MN AB II 2x TC II 5x Neutrons II 225 DPS at 41km optimal, 23km falloff [CN Tungsten] without drones, 380 with drones. I wouldnt call that zero. 5x Hammerhead II 2x Trimark Armor Pump I
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:15:00 - [44] Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 05/08/2007 20:17:15 Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 05/08/2007 20:16:07 ... my eyes tricked me Edit: Damn 4k character limit... can modify last post: it should be 250mm Rail II...
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:16:00 - [45] 41km optimal with Neutron Blasters? You are clearly now just making stuff up. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:19:00 - [46] Edited by: bldyannoyed on 05/08/2007 20:19:34 Rails make more sense. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:22:00 - [47] Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 05/08/2007 20:22:43 And there is another point: ranges above 35 km doesnt make much sense for your eagle, since two unboosted RSD can bring you on that locking range.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:25:00 - [48] So now the Eagle doesnt work because of RSD's? Theres just no end to it is there. If you wanna start bringing more third party effects why dont we throw 3 tracking disrupters at it too to make sure its got absolutely no chance whatsoever? And another point, for every ammo type the Deimos drops down to get the Eagle in range, the Eagle can just6 do the same and step further out of the range of the Deimos. And it turns out the Eagle can get an MWD in without the oloss of any DPS, only about 6km optimal and a slight reduction in its tank. So the Deimos is still boned. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:31:00 - [49] RSD is omnipresent nowadays, and it shows you the problem that the range bonus isnt that much worth, because you cant use it in most situations. If you put a RSD on a deimos it can still lock at a nice range to use antimatter at its full range with a significantly higher damage output than the eagle which will lose the range bonus for its antimatter.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:32:00 - [50] Originally by: Benn Helmsman RSD is omnipresent nowadays, and it shows you the problem that the range bonus isnt that much worth, because you cant use it in most situations. If you put a RSD on a deimos it can still lock at a nice range to use antimatter at its full range with a significantly higher damage output than the eagle which will lose the range bonus for its antimatter. Well in that case just fit 3 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps, 3 magstabs and a tracking enhancer, load spike and go to 200km where noone can get you. Just something else an Eagle can do that no other HAC can. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:36:00 - [51] Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 05/08/2007 20:38:45 Originally by: bldyannoyed Originally by: Benn Helmsman RSD is omnipresent nowadays, and it shows you the problem that the range bonus isnt that much worth, because you cant use it in most situations. If you put a RSD on a deimos it can still lock at a nice range to use antimatter at its full range with a significantly higher damage output than the eagle which will lose the range bonus for its antimatter. Well in that case just fit 3 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps, 3 magstabs and a tracking enhancer, load spike and go to 200km where noone can get you. Just something else an Eagle can do that no other HAC can. Sure, but how many damage will you deal from that position with that that kind of fitting? Oh its less than 5 light drones... see why the eagle needs a 5th turret? Edit: 5 light drones from a droneboat i have to admit
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:40:00 - [52] It IS very hard to outdamage another ship moving fast towards you if you constantly have to use 10 seconds changing ammunition If you guess right you might do some damage for a few seconds before having to change ammunition again. - I'm a nice guy!! MOA is NOT UGLY!!! It's A FREAK SHOW!!!!
fkingfurious	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:42:00 - [53] Edited by: fkingfurious on 05/08/2007 20:42:21 Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 05/08/2007 20:38:45 Originally by: bldyannoyed Originally by: Benn Helmsman RSD is omnipresent nowadays, and it shows you the problem that the range bonus isnt that much worth, because you cant use it in most situations. If you put a RSD on a deimos it can still lock at a nice range to use antimatter at its full range with a significantly higher damage output than the eagle which will lose the range bonus for its antimatter. Well in that case just fit 3 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps, 3 magstabs and a tracking enhancer, load spike and go to 200km where noone can get you. Just something else an Eagle can do that no other HAC can. Sure, but how many damage will you deal from that position with that that kind of fitting? Oh its less than 5 light drones... see why the eagle needs a 5th turret? Edit: 5 light drones from a droneboat i have to admit 150DPS @ 192km optimal. 180DPS if u fit a burst aerator and a collision accelerator in the now redundant rig slots. EDIT: Damned alt post.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 20:51:00 - [54] Well then check the damage of 5 Hobgoblins on a Domi or an Ishtar, its pretty funny to see a HAC dealing damage like 5 light drones... it might be from far away.. but why not use a ship instead that deals like 4-5 times more damage at close range and wont be prey for ceptor pilots?
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.08.05 21:16:00 - [55] the eagle sorely needs another turret slot. Its intended role as a distance sniper is hurt badly by its horrible damage. It has no drone bay and a useless split weapon system. Hell Amarr hacks are now going to be better with missles then caldari ships are with rails
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.05 21:33:00 - [56] Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/08/2007 21:40:37 Originally by: Hannobaal If you give it more guns, you should drop its optimal range bonus. You can't expect to have both range and damage, and most Caldari pilots who complain about how weak Caldari are don't care for the extra range anyway. Why? One extra gun will still only give it about 60% of your precious Diemos damage. You ever tried fitting rails to a Diemos? Makes a good sniper, better than the Eagle because in Eve-Online damage is preferable to range. Further have you ever tried shooting an assault frigate in an Eagle? With full skills its gonna take about 30 seconds to blow it up. That's a HAC, shooting a moving frigate, in its optimal, with antimatter. Do you think that is good enough? Basically they needed to add an extra turret or two to every single Caldari ship (apart from the Harpy & Rokh) after they implemented the hitpoint buff because right now, none of them are good enough.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 21:51:00 - [57] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/08/2007 21:40:37 Originally by: Hannobaal If you give it more guns, you should drop its optimal range bonus. You can't expect to have both range and damage, and most Caldari pilots who complain about how weak Caldari are don't care for the extra range anyway. Why? One extra gun will still only give it about 60% of your precious Diemos damage. You ever tried fitting rails to a Diemos? Makes a good sniper, better than the Eagle because in Eve-Online damage is preferable to range. Further have you ever tried shooting an assault frigate in an Eagle? With full skills its gonna take about 30 seconds to blow it up. That's a HAC, shooting a moving frigate, in its optimal, with antimatter. Do you think that is good enough? Basically they needed to add an extra turret or two to every single Caldari ship (apart from the Harpy & Rokh) after they implemented the hitpoint buff because right now, none of them are good enough. The current eagle outdamaqes the Deimos >60km when both are shooting faction ammo[so as to hit small ships]. Its really not that impressive as a sniper unless you are shooting at battlecruisers. If it gets the 5th turret, it should lose the damage bonus and get something else in its place.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.05 22:01:00 - [58] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/08/2007 21:40:37 Originally by: Hannobaal If you give it more guns, you should drop its optimal range bonus. You can't expect to have both range and damage, and most Caldari pilots who complain about how weak Caldari are don't care for the extra range anyway. Why? One extra gun will still only give it about 60% of your precious Diemos damage. You ever tried fitting rails to a Diemos? Makes a good sniper, better than the Eagle because in Eve-Online damage is preferable to range. Further have you ever tried shooting an assault frigate in an Eagle? With full skills its gonna take about 30 seconds to blow it up. That's a HAC, shooting a moving frigate, in its optimal, with antimatter. Do you think that is good enough? Basically they needed to add an extra turret or two to every single Caldari ship (apart from the Harpy & Rokh) after they implemented the hitpoint buff because right now, none of them are good enough. The current eagle outdamaqes the Deimos >60km when both are shooting faction ammo[so as to hit small ships]. Its really not that impressive as a sniper unless you are shooting at battlecruisers. If it gets the 5th turret, it should lose the damage bonus and get something else in its place. Wouldnt it pretty esnseless to give it 25% more damage and take 25% damage away from it? The only bonus that would make it up would be a 10% high locking range/lvl.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.05 22:03:00 - [59] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/08/2007 21:40:37 Originally by: Hannobaal If you give it more guns, you should drop its optimal range bonus. You can't expect to have both range and damage, and most Caldari pilots who complain about how weak Caldari are don't care for the extra range anyway. Why? One extra gun will still only give it about 60% of your precious Diemos damage. You ever tried fitting rails to a Diemos? Makes a good sniper, better than the Eagle because in Eve-Online damage is preferable to range. Further have you ever tried shooting an assault frigate in an Eagle? With full skills its gonna take about 30 seconds to blow it up. That's a HAC, shooting a moving frigate, in its optimal, with antimatter. Do you think that is good enough? Basically they needed to add an extra turret or two to every single Caldari ship (apart from the Harpy & Rokh) after they implemented the hitpoint buff because right now, none of them are good enough. The current eagle outdamaqes the Deimos >60km when both are shooting faction ammo[so as to hit small ships]. Its really not that impressive as a sniper unless you are shooting at battlecruisers. If it gets the 5th turret, it should lose the damage bonus and get something else in its place. Wouldnt it pretty esnseless to give it 25% more damage and take 25% damage away from it? The only bonus that would make it up would be a 10% high locking range/lvl. Full dps before HAC 5. And how would "the only way to make it up" would be a 10% lock range bonus? It didnt lose anything.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.05 22:26:00 - [60] Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/08/2007 22:28:56 I'm beginning to wonder whether 'Caldari' burnt down your house or something Goumindong. "Give them an extra 25% damage then take it away again! Also leave them with one less missile launcher slot!" Great call. Face it, in this particular instance you're arguing for the sake of it. The Eagle sucks, the Moa sucks and the Ferox sucks in comparison to their racial opposites that we pay the same amount of isk for.

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