Originally by: Goumindong

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There are no unused high slots. You put standard missile launchers in there and load up with precision light missiles.

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Originally by: Hotshothotshot1

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Originally by: Goumindong

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There are no unused high slots. You put standard missile launchers in there and load up with precision light missiles.

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Which will have a base range of 18km for a 200km sniping ship. So basicly unused at 200km sniping at the enemy doing low dps

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 20/08/2007 16:07:20
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/08/2007 15:49:30

Originally by: Hugh Ruka

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Other than that, a plain ROF or damage bonus is always better. So actualy Munin having range+ROF+damage bonus should equal Eagle having 2xrange+damage bonus. Yet Eagle has 1 less turret and no drones. Where's the balance ? And Zealot seems to lack one turret too.

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Not necessarily true. Railguns already have a longer optimal range compared to Artillery and lasers.

Lets look at a maller using tech 1 ammo for beams, rails, and arties. [chosen specifiically for no bonuses to any weapons]

As you can see, despite the Maller doing more DPS with the Beams in the short range, the Rails do overtake the Maller before the Maller stops hitting.

Now if we extend the graph 50% to the right for the rails, and 25% up for the Beams, we dont have a balanced sitatution. The rails, instead of having a near similar ratio from 35-60km, just do more DPS from 35km onward.

This is clearly why the Moa has 4 turrets. Even a damaged bonused thorax will get trounced by it in the long range if it had 5.[before t2 ammo]

So why is a 5 turret Moa O.K. now, and a 5 turret eagle not?

Two reasons.

1. Tech 2 Ammo benefits the moa and its competitors more, since they are encroached upon in attacking small ships by Destroyers.

2. Moas are still toasted by the Eagle, Muninn, and Zealot at long range with all ammo types.

3. The double range bonus on the ships with 16% more range to start, with no comparable single damage bonused ship to compete with makes even tech 2 ammo on those single ranged bonused ships obsolete.

I agreee that the Eagle needs boosting. I just do not think that the 5th turret is the way to solve the problem. Giving it other advantages that let it be used outside of the niche role that it has is a much better alternative. Because that doesnt remove roles from other ships, and still increases its value.

Many people here are complaining that the Eagle does not perform well in small and medium sized engagements. And it doesnt. But it does perform well in large engagements. And most of the problems is people trying to shoe-horn the sniping role[of small ships] into small and medium sized engagements instead of giving the ship something unique or different to do in those engagements.

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Originally by: JP Beauregard

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The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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Theoretical arguments are what you are asking for... I've offered them. There is no end to the theory versus theory discussion - every theoretical possiblity has a theoretical counter. We could go back and forth on this endlessly. In the end, in my mind, the only tie-breaker is experience.

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Precisely. Thanks.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Uhm...

Your graphs do not make much sense. I have never ever seen such zig-zag dps lines as the t2 sniping graph has. At least not under such circumstances. Such sudden dps losses only happen when you reach the maximum range of a weapon system, like the maximum range of your missiles or drones. YOu must have made an error there.

The inty sniping graph shouldn't be possible either. The muninns guns track betetr due to its bonus, but not by THAT much. That your eagle is somehow able to use BATTLESHIP SIZED guns might be the reason there. Try it again with 250mms, their tracking is slightly better.
You also use the 425mm rails in the t2 sniping graph. And for closerange you use the BS neutron blaster as well.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Your graphs do not make much sense. I have never ever seen such zig-zag dps lines as the t2 sniping graph has. At least not under such circumstances. Such sudden dps losses only happen when you reach the maximum range of a weapon system, like the maximum range of your missiles or drones. YOu must have made an error there.

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Originally by: MailFan

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Ok im quite new to the whole spreadsheet thing, so there might be a mistake or two.

You can see the fitting on the bottom.

First graph shows a sniper Muninn (with 2 SB), a sniper Eagle with 4 turrets and sniper Eagle with 5 turrets and no missile launchers. All fitted with T2 ammo to do max damage. But you could also refit it with Faction ammo for better tracking. It would %-wise still be the same.

Snipe T2

The next one shows the same ships shooting at an Inty travelling 3000m/s transversal. I fitted all with navy ammo, otherwise there would be no damage at all and the Muninn with another TE which has a bigger advantage than the extra targetting range.

Inty Sniping

Last one shows close range fitted ships. Where the Eagle has 2 rocket launchers instead of 2 HAMs because otherwise it would have been left with 100pg to fit everything except for the guns and 3 damage mods. Where with rocket launchers the dps would almost be the same and the PG and cpu left would be about equal to the Muninns.

Close Range

I don't want to jump to conclusion yet, since there might be some errors. But it looks to me a 5 Turret Eagle (with no launcher slots), would soften the pain a bit.
If you change ammo types according to range, you might get the 5 turret Eagle to outdamage the Muninn at close range, but nobody's going to bring 6 different types of expensive Faction ammo to a fleetfight, especially not in an Eagle where your dps difference would be very small. Even worse is the fact that it takes 10 seconds of 0 dps which you will have make up everytime you switch, compared to a ship that stays at the same ammo. I.e. never going to work.
You bring 2, max 3 types of ammo.

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Originally by: MailFan

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Edited by: MailFan on 21/08/2007 14:27:18
Edited by: MailFan on 21/08/2007 14:05:55

Originally by: MailFan

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Ok im quite new to the whole spreadsheet thing, so there might be a mistake or two.

You can see the fitting on the bottom.

First graph shows a sniper Muninn (with 2 SB), a sniper Eagle with 4 turrets and sniper Eagle with 5 turrets and no missile launchers. All fitted with T2 ammo to do max damage. But you could also refit it with Faction ammo for better tracking. It would %-wise still be the same.

Snipe T2

The next one shows the same ships shooting at an Inty travelling 3000m/s transversal. I fitted all with navy ammo, otherwise there would be no damage at all and the Muninn with another TE which has a bigger advantage than the extra targetting range.

Inty Sniping

Last one shows close range fitted ships. Where the Eagle has 2 rocket launchers instead of 2 HAMs because otherwise it would have been left with 100pg to fit everything except for the guns and 3 damage mods. Where with rocket launchers the dps would almost be the same and the PG and cpu left would be about equal to the Muninns.

Close Range

I don't want to jump to conclusion yet, since there might be some errors. But it looks to me a 5 Turret Eagle (with no launcher slots), would soften the pain a bit.
If you change ammo types according to range, you might get the 5 turret Eagle to outdamage the Muninn at Medium-High range, but nobody's going to bring 6 different types of expensive Faction ammo to a fleetfight, especially not in an Eagle where your dps difference would be very small. Even worse is the fact that it takes 10 seconds of 0 dps which you will have make up everytime you switch, compared to a ship that stays at the same ammo. I.e. never going to work.
You bring 2, max 3 types of ammo.

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Graphs should be (more ) correct now.

I think the Eagle could still use a 10-15m3 dronebay.

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Originally by: JP Beauregard

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The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....

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Originally by: MailFan

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Uhm...

Your graphs do not make much sense. I have never ever seen such zig-zag dps lines as the t2 sniping graph has. At least not under such circumstances. Such sudden dps losses only happen when you reach the maximum range of a weapon system, like the maximum range of your missiles or drones. YOu must have made an error there.

The inty sniping graph shouldn't be possible either. The muninns guns track betetr due to its bonus, but not by THAT much. That your eagle is somehow able to use BATTLESHIP SIZED guns might be the reason there. Try it again with 250mms, their tracking is slightly better.
You also use the 425mm rails in the t2 sniping graph. And for closerange you use the BS neutron blaster as well.

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Lol you're completely right about the guns, the spreadsheet list is a bit confusing . Should be fixed.

About the Missile launchers. When someone pointed out my previous Eagle fittings had 2 spare high slots, Gour's response was it should have been filled with launchers.

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Originally by: MailFan

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Edited by: MailFan on 21/08/2007 14:27:40
Ok im quite new to the whole spreadsheet thing, so there might be a mistake or two.

You can see the fitting on the bottom.

First graph shows a sniper Muninn (with 2 SB), a sniper Eagle with 4 turrets and sniper Eagle with 5 turrets and no missile launchers. All fitted with T2 ammo to do max damage. But you could also refit it with Faction ammo for better tracking. It would %-wise still be the same.

Snipe T2

The next one shows the same ships shooting at an Inty travelling 3000m/s transversal. I fitted all with navy ammo, otherwise there would be no damage at all.

Inty Sniping

Last one shows close range fitted ships. Where the Eagle has 2 rocket launchers instead of 2 HAMs because otherwise it would have been left with 100pg to fit everything except for the guns and 3 damage mods. Where with rocket launchers the dps would almost be the same and the PG and cpu left would be about equal to the Muninns.

Close Range

I don't want to jump to conclusion yet, since there might be some errors. But it looks to me a 5 Turret Eagle (with no launcher slots), would soften the pain a bit.
If you change ammo types according to range, you might get the 5 turret Eagle to outdamage the Muninn at Medium-High range, but nobody's going to bring 6 different types of expensive Faction ammo to a fleetfight, especially not in an Eagle where your dps difference would be very small. Even worse is the fact that it takes 10 seconds of 0 dps which you will have make up everytime you switch, compared to a ship that stays at the same ammo. I.e. never going to work.
You bring 2, max 3 types of ammo.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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To repeat myself, are you still seriously claiming that half of eves ships have a sig below 125m? That is a claim which is plain out silly.
It either means you have no understanding of that aspect of the game or know very well that you are using wrong numbers and are just trolling.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Bringing that and then trying as last resort to hide behind your alliance instead of actually answering that question (because you obviously cannot be wrong) is just pityful. Alliances mean nothing. I've seen great PvPs in "bad" alliances. I've seen horrible PvPers in "good" alliances. In the end people can only be judged what they say and do.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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My point is that people claim that HACs in general (and the Cerberus even more specifically) are to serve as anti-support ships. If that is the case then well over 50% of their intended targets are of 125m sig or less. Which, in my mind, is nonsense.

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Originally by: MailFan

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How does the spreadsheet calculate the Navy ammo? It gives +15% damage compared to normal ammo, but which type?

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Originally by: MailFan

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Inty

There you go, a graph made with your requested setup, happy now? Seems things are a little less 'extreme' than you make them look like. Maybe people actually fly ships differently compared to think what you think is best.

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And care to comment on the short range setup? Where the Muninn does almost 40% more damage than the current Eagle. If that doesn't make up for the lack of 150km+ sniping I don't know what does. Fact still is, Eagle is the sniper, not the Muninn. Moa has a range bonus (t1 sniper) and the Eagle got another one, making it dedicated for long range Railgun sniping. The Muninn on the other hand, dit not inherit a range bonus from the Rupture. And it did not recieve another direct damage bonus, since that would give it 3 damage bonuses. So not much left than giving it a bit of extra range.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, its not

You are still over a damage mod and under a tracking enhancer on the Eagle.

You are still OVER a tracking computer on the Muninn.[that it, its optimal range is 8% too high, and its tracking is 26% too high]

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You cannot fix that by giving the eagle more turrets and breaking it in the long range

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You still havent overlayed the tech 2 ammo graph with the best navy graph. You might want to just do the 5 turret or 4 turret version of this. Its tough to see what is happening with 6 lines on the graph.

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Originally by: MailFan

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Thank you for pointing out why I left the TC and dropped the SB. You could fit a rig for a bit more locking range, but it's not needed since you can lock at 110km, which would give you 4-5s lock time.

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It won't, it will bring it to it's inteded role as best HAC sniper ingame at sniper ranges (instead of being outperformed up till 110k) and still low on the close range dps. Special order for mister Goumindong

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I remember someone in this thread saying t2 ammo was useless on Inty's? If you scroll up a bit you can see one which shows t2 sniping on stationary targets. Which would conclude the Eagle needs a long range buff to kill cruisers.

And I ask you again, please comment on the close range setups. Where you didn't believe the Muninn could do 600dps, while here it shows it can do 700 (with 300+ PG and slots left). For everybody's comfort: Close Range

Take a look at the long range t2 sniping and tell me the Muninn isn't a versatile ship?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 21/08/2007 17:47:51

Originally by: MailFan

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Thank you for pointing out why I left the TC and dropped the SB. You could fit a rig for a bit more locking range, but it's not needed since you can lock at 110km, which would give you 4-5s lock time.

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4-5 seconds and the target has traveled 25-30km closer to you...

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It won't, it will bring it to it's inteded role as best HAC sniper ingame at sniper ranges (instead of being outperformed up till 110k) and still low on the close range dps. Special order for mister Goumindong

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You still have too many tracking mods on the Muninn

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I remember someone in this thread saying t2 ammo was useless on Inty's? If you scroll up a bit you can see one which shows t2 sniping on stationary targets. Which would conclude the Eagle needs a long range buff to kill cruisers.

And I ask you again, please comment on the close range setups. Where you didn't believe the Muninn could do 600dps, while here it shows it can do 700 (with 300+ PG and slots left). For everybody's comfort: Close Range

Take a look at the long range t2 sniping and tell me the Muninn isn't a versatile ship?

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T2 ammo is useless against interceptors yes. Tech 1 ammo is NOT useless against cruisers. Put up 5t eagle, muninn twice. one of each gets best navy one of each gets tech 2 long range.

700 DPS? Bwa ha ha ha ha, i love how it has two HAMS on it and the Eagle has rocket launchers...

I like how it has a 2 slot tank on a ship designed to be used under 2km. I like how its worse in all ways compared to a Hurricane[its not even faster since the Cane has free slots to put speed mods on, has an extra mid, and will tank better on base hit points than the Muninn will with its 2 slot tank.

I like how it doesnt matter, because even if it were a good close range ship[which its not] it would not justify the eagle being broken in the long range.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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My point is that people claim that HACs in general (and the Cerberus even more specifically) are to serve as anti-support ships. If that is the case then well over 50% of their intended targets are of 125m sig or less. Which, in my mind, is nonsense.

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Until they turn their MWD on. In order to have lower than 125 sig you have to have a sig lower than 20.8 with a tech 1 MWD, or a sig lower than 19.2 with a tech 2 MWD.

There simply are not many ships except halod/gang mod'd inties that will do that. And even with a base sig of 15, you still have a 97 sig radius when running the MWD.

And make no mistake about it, these ships will be running their mwd.

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Originally by: Queen Hopy

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Newsflash, hurricane is a tier2 bc. Ofcourse a muninn is worse than it in most scenarios.

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The Eagle can shoot 200+ km, this is an advantage over the Zealot and Muninn and needs to be balanced with something.

If you dont think this is a good enough advantage we can always replace one of the optimal range bonuses for another dmg/rof. Then they would be pretty much all the same.

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^^^Djoos post wins this thread.

Remove one of the %10 optimal range bonus and add %5 dmg or ROF.

end of Eagle 's 5th turret Wish.

best wishes,
haq aan

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Originally by: Djoos

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The Eagle can shoot 200+ km, this is an advantage over the Zealot and Muninn and needs to be balanced with something.

If you dont think this is a good enough advantage we can always replace one of the optimal range bonuses for another dmg/rof. Then they would be pretty much all the same.

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Originally by: "Local Chat"

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[03:18:10] Vasili Z > your helios has balls

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Originally by: d026

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AND NO nothing changes much if we load faction ammo.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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My point is that people claim that HACs in general (and the Cerberus even more specifically) are to serve as anti-support ships. If that is the case then well over 50% of their intended targets are of 125m sig or less. Which, in my mind, is nonsense.

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You're really upset about this whole corp reference thing.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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To an extent I agree with you. However, something you need to keep in mind is that most knowledgable inty/frigate pilots do not run their MWD constantly.

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