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Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.04 07:58:00 - [871] Originally by: MailFan And no you are still wrong, the Deimos outdamages the Eagle up to 100km. 393 with T2 ammo and with Navy it reaches 323dps at 85km + 23falloff Turn off the drones in EFT, you are adding exactly 158 too much DPS to your fits. How you could ever come up with 323 DPS with navy ammo and think that is right is beyond me. I mean, its got 1 more turret, and 1 more damage bonus than the eagle. So that means if you take the eagles DPS with that same ammo and multiply by 5, then divide by 4, then multiply by 1.25 you get the right DPS number. The eagle does 108 DPS or so with faction ammo. The Deimos 56.25% more than that. Or 169 dps.
MailFan Stormlord Battleforce Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.04 08:47:00 - [872] Edited by: MailFan on 04/09/2007 08:47:44 Originally by: Goumindong No, it does not. Do i have to show you the graph again? No you don't have to since your 'best ammo' theory is wrong. Quote: 66 dps before resists @ 20km vs 66 dps after resists at 150km. Hmmmmm Fit EM Precision or Faction missiles. 0 resist on a Crow so you hit 100% and then switch to explosive you hit 90%. And the missiles reach 50km without rigs or implants. 60+ for normal missiles. And switching ammo is perfectly ok, remember you said it yourself. -- I'm in this mood because of scorn. I'm in a mood for total war
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.09.04 11:57:00 - [873] I know I mentioned it befor, but I have to say it... "I hereby hijack this thread from its original author and title and declare its new title: PVP and Quickfit: Are they the same? Facts and fiction. a documentary by Mr. Undock, Sometimes I. Thanks"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.04 14:08:00 - [874] Originally by: MailFan Edited by: MailFan on 04/09/2007 11:51:10 Originally by: Goumindong No, it does not. Do i have to show you the graph again? No you don't have to since your 'best ammo' theory is wrong. The Deimos outdamages the Eagle up till 100km. When fitted with Warrior T2's it can take on 2 different inty's if it wants to. Outdamaging the Eagle with a factor of 3. Warrior IIs will not hit to 100km. You are simply lieing here. The Deimos is simply destroyed due to the tracking penalty out to 100km. A factor of 3? A Deimos does 600 dps at 100km? O.K. now i have heard everything. Quote: Fit EM Precision or Faction missiles. 0 resist on a Crow so you hit 100% and then switch to explosive you hit 90%. And the missiles reach 50km without rigs or implants. 60+ for normal missiles. And switching ammo is perfectly ok, remember you said it yourself. 7.5 second flight time. Assuming 2000 effective hit points the eagle kills the target in 20 seconds or so, the Crow kills the target in 30-37.5. This is assuming it doesnt change ammo[since that adds 10 seconds on to the equation]. And no, i said changing ammo is accetable under certian circumstances. Now, Assault Caracals are really good for killing interceptors up close, 143 DPS. 7.5 second flight time. Since longer ranged ships wont track as well in that range. But it still doesnt compare to the eagle.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.04 14:15:00 - [875] O.K. so lets shoot two interceptors. Comparing a Deimos and an Eagle. 2000 hit points on the interceptor, 5km/s transversal, 5km/s radial. Target starts at 150km. Optimal Ammo is loaded for that engagement range. Eagle kills the target in 15.3 seconds + lock time. Deimos kills the target in 14.334 seconds + travel time of 10 seconds. Total of 24 seconds. So long as the eagle can lock its target in under 10 seconds its more effient than the Deimos. Again at 100km with optimal ammo loaded at the time. Eagle kills the target in 10.309 seconds + lock time. Deimos kills the target in 11.834 seconds + lock time.
Morn Judith Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.04 14:29:00 - [876] I think that 30 pages of constructive conversation with on a bit of flaming deserves a bit of Dev attention. Anyone else agree? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.04 14:57:00 - [877] Quote: O.K. so lets shoot two interceptors. Comparing a Deimos and an Eagle. 2000 hit points on the interceptor, 5km/s transversal, 5km/s radial. Target starts at 150km. Optimal Ammo is loaded for that engagement range. Eagle kills the target in 15.3 seconds + lock time. Deimos kills the target in 14.334 seconds + travel time of 10 seconds. Total of 24 seconds. So long as the eagle can lock its target in under 10 seconds its more effient than the Deimos. Again at 100km with optimal ammo loaded at the time. Eagle kills the target in 10.309 seconds + lock time. Deimos kills the target in 11.834 seconds + lock time. Only if the Eagle has not loaded the right ammo before hand will the Deimos have an advantage. And even then, the entirety of the Deimoses advantage can be negated by fitting lower ranged ammo. The eagle can hit to 114+15 on Lead, and do slightly more than the Deimos can do at 80+21 with Iron. And, as we can see, that even at 2km/s transversal that tech 2 ammo simply cannot hit interceptors. and once again you choose to ignore t2 ammo. There are other ships worth shooting besides interceptors. The game is full of recons and assault frigats and all sorts of other ships! if you think a ship should be pigeon holed into the sole role of shooting interceptors in large fleets, and barely outperform the competetion that has all sorts of options, then there is no hope for you..... Quote: I think that 30 pages of constructive conversation with on a bit of flaming deserves a bit of Dev attention. Anyone else agree? yes I agree, dev input plz!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.04 15:01:00 - [878] Edited by: Goumindong on 04/09/2007 15:02:11 Originally by: KD.Fluffy and once again you choose to ignore t2 ammo. There are other ships worth shooting besides interceptors. The game is full of recons and assault frigats and all sorts of other ships! if you think a ship should be pigeon holed into the sole role of shooting interceptors in large fleets, and barely outperform the competetion that has all sorts of options, then there is no hope for you..... Because holy lord, if the Deimos sucks at shooting interceptors[and it does], and the Deimos is only good at shooting cruiser sized ships. Then A Rokh utterly destroys it. The deimos is bad for fleets because it is just as useless as battleships at shooting interceptors and much worse at shooting everything else. For reference, the first is a tech 1 fitted Rokh with tech 1 ammo, the second is a tech 2 with best navy
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.04 15:16:00 - [879] Originally by: Goumindong because holy lord, if the Deimos sucks at shooting interceptors[and it does] It does? Have you ever flown one? Or is this quickfit coming to the fore again?
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.04 15:20:00 - [880] Quote: Because holy lord, if the Deimos sucks at shooting interceptors[and it does], and the Deimos is only good at shooting cruiser sized ships. Then A Rokh utterly destroys it. The deimos is bad for fleets because it is just as useless as battleships at shooting interceptors and much worse at shooting everything else. For reference, the first is a tech 1 fitted Rokh with tech 1 ammo, the second is a tech 2 with best navy i know the deimos sucks at sniping interceptors, but its fast and gets a drone bay... the fact the rokh outdamages it is a moot point because we are talking about cruisers. not battleships. rokh is also a better anti support sniper then the eagle with the exception of interceptors. So why fly anything but a rokh? boost the eagle plz, it sorely needs it.

MailFan Stormlord Battleforce Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.04 15:53:00 - [881] Let's try this again. Eagle: + Good at shooting long range due to 2x optimal bonus + Good resists, but useless bonus for a sniping role - Worst Speed - Worst Agility - Just 4 turret slots - No dronebay - Cap usage - Bit low on PG - Biggest sig radius - Lowest Scan resolution There are 2 reasons why you would want to make the Eagle a sniper. First being the double range bonus. Second being it worst at everything else. It's also sad that 1 of the Pro's about this ship is useless when sniping. Namely the resist bonus. When you whish to go shortrange, you can actually use both Pro's. But you will also be hit back in the face twice as hard because of all the drawbacks. The same drawbacks which are of less importance when sniping. This ship has so many drawbacks (I could add some more), that it's utterly outperformed in any role except sniping. So you would expect, for the sake of gamebalance, the ship to shine in the 1 thing it is good at. But it doesn't. Yes it can shoot further than any other Hac, but it takes its gimped damage output with it at all those ranges. As I said, you would expect it to shine, but it's degraded to shooting inty's, which it has hard time to deal with. Other Hacs with way more versatility come very close to the Eagles performance. In fact, why would you want to train for an Eagle anyway, when it takes longer to train than a T2 fitted Rokh, which can shoot anything fine down to cruiser class ships. 100/150Dps raw is ridiculous for a ship that costs that much in ISK and training time. Especially for probably the smallest niche ingame, which is shooting frigate sized ships at a range of 100-150km. A 50km area that gets travelled through in 10 seconds of a fleetfight. 10 seconds is all the Eagle is usefull for in EVE. -- I'm in this mood because of scorn. I'm in a mood for total war
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.04 15:55:00 - [882] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goumindong because holy lord, if the Deimos sucks at shooting interceptors[and it does] It does? Have you ever flown one? Or is this quickfit coming to the fore again? No, this paper tiger is EFT oriented. The dude thinks that interceptors are flying only at 100-150 km range. The dude thinks that support consists only from interceptors. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and <
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:05:00 - [883] Edited by: Goumindong on 04/09/2007 16:07:20 Originally by: KD.Fluffy Quote: Because holy lord, if the Deimos sucks at shooting interceptors[and it does], and the Deimos is only good at shooting cruiser sized ships. Then A Rokh utterly destroys it. The deimos is bad for fleets because it is just as useless as battleships at shooting interceptors and much worse at shooting everything else. For reference, the first is a tech 1 fitted Rokh with tech 1 ammo, the second is a tech 2 with best navy i know the deimos sucks at sniping interceptors, but its fast and gets a drone bay... the fact the rokh outdamages it is a moot point because we are talking about cruisers. not battleships. rokh is also a better anti support sniper then the eagle with the exception of interceptors. So why fly anything but a rokh? boost the eagle plz, it sorely needs it. The point is that people here are saying the Deimos is better with rails than the eagle. It isnt. The eagle performs a role and the deimos doesnt, because the deimos isnt able to perform against the targets that that class of ships needs to perform against to be usefull in a fleet. The deimos is fast, and it does have drones. The issue is giving the Eagle the 5th turret, which doesnt affect its performance much in the short range[where it will still be had], but really affects it largly in the long range, where it is already the best. This is why i dont think the eagle should have the 5th turret, giving it a boost in the form of drones or a different bonus[+1 turret, -1 damage bonus] is another matter, because those changes dont affect its performance in the long range where it is the best, but only shore up its performance in the short, where it suffers. ED: HACs do not take longer to train than t2 battleships.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:12:00 - [884] Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:12:34 Originally by: Goumindong its performance in the long range where it is the best It's not hard to be the best when you're the only cruiser hitting at 200km.
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:18:00 - [885] Originally by: Goumindong The point is that people here are saying the Deimos is better with rails than the eagle. It isnt. The eagle performs a role and the deimos doesnt, because the deimos isnt able to perform against the targets that I SAY ARE THE class of ships needs to perform against to be usefull in a fleet DESPITE WHAT EVE AND THE REST OF THE WORLD SAYS. Fixed Quote: The deimos is fast, and it does have drones. The issue is giving the Eagle the 5th turret, which ALSO AFFECTS ITS performance much in the short range[where it will still be Bad BUT AT LEAST BETTER], but really affects it largEly in the long range, where it is already the best AT WHAT I NAMED TO BE ITS ROLE, I.E. KILLING INTIES AND PODS AND KILLMAIL-HORING, WHILE IGNORING THE REST OF THE TARGETS THAT PRESENT THEMSELVES CAUSE I SAY SO!!!111ELEVENONE. This is why i dont think the eagle should have the 5th turret, giving it a boost in the form of drones or a different bonus[+1 turret, -1 damage bonus] is another matter, because those changes ONLY affect its performance NEGATIVELY in the ALREADY DEFICIENT LONG range where it SHOULD BE the best, but AT LEAST IT WOULD GIVE IT AN INSANE TANK WITH PAPER DAMAGE in the short, SO THAT CALDARI CAN NEVER,EVER HAVE A DECENT SHIP, AND KEEP IT AT ITS PLACE: where it suffers THE MOST. Fixed as well, the previous version was too hypocritical for my taste.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:23:00 - [886] Originally by: Elmicker Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:12:34 Originally by: Goumindong its performance in the long range where it is the best It's not hard to be the best when you're the only cruiser hitting at 200km. Nope, but it still performs admirably to the extent of anti-supports effective range.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:27:00 - [887] Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:28:21 Originally by: Goumindong Nope, but it still performs admirably to the extent of anti-supports effective range. If you can prove it, then i'll believe you. and NO. Showing graphs of the eagle doing 106 dps at 200km is not proving it is an effective anti-support ship (if anything, that's disproving it). I gave you an example of me, a light support ship, easily engaging an eagle from long range, but failing to kill it, and then i gave you another example of an eagle, backed up by a sabre (ultimate anti support ship), getting utterly spanked by 3 ceptors. I could find you more proof, but i feel you've walled yourself into your little box of "OMG THE EAGLE IS GODLIKE." and there's no way out.
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:27:00 - [888] Quote: Nope, but it still performs admirably to the extent of anti-supports effective range. it would perform well if it had another turret. NOw its just a piece of crap. I would take a muninn, deimos, ishtar, any other hac pretty much over the eagle any day, with the sole exception of the cerberus.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:31:00 - [889] Originally by: KD.Fluffy Quote: Nope, but it still performs admirably to the extent of anti-supports effective range. it would perform well if it had another turret. NOw its just a piece of crap. I would take a muninn, deimos, ishtar, any other hac pretty much over the eagle any day, with the sole exception of the cerberus. And you would perform less well. With a 5th turret it simply outperforms them in all situations, instead of being equal at most ranges that both can hit effectivly at.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:33:00 - [890] Edited by: Goumindong on 04/09/2007 16:36:28 Originally by: Elmicker Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:28:21 Originally by: Goumindong Nope, but it still performs admirably to the extent of anti-supports effective range. If you can prove it, then i'll believe you. and NO. Showing graphs of the eagle doing 106 dps at 200km is not proving it is an effective anti-support ship (if anything, that's disproving it). I gave you an example of me, a light support ship, easily engaging an eagle from long range, but failing to kill it, and then i gave you another example of an eagle, backed up by a sabre (ultimate anti support ship), getting utterly spanked by 3 ceptors. I could find you more proof, but i feel you've walled yourself into your little box of "OMG THE EAGLE IS GODLIKE." and there's no way out. 4 turret + 5 turret eagle + competition against typical target 4 turret is in yellow[red is tech 2], 5 turret is in blue ed: The drones slightly misrepresent the Muninn, since they arent effective over 40km and have travel time.

KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:36:00 - [891] stop posting that chart its wrong. 5t eagle wont even match other's damage till their range falls off. How many times have we been through this lol?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:38:00 - [892] Originally by: KD.Fluffy stop posting that chart its wrong. 5t eagle wont even match other's damage till their range falls off. How many times have we been through this lol? As many times as it takes to show you how wrong you are
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:41:00 - [893] Originally by: Goumindong 4 turret + 5 turret eagle + competition against typical target 4 turret is in yellow[red is tech 2], 5 turret is in blue In all honesty... I don't actually see a problem with this graph... Muninn dominates as midrange damage dealer. Zealot is the middle damage dealer for most of the midrange theatre (should be higher, but that's an inherent problem of lasers rather than the ship. However in reality, the zealot will be fitted with pulse rather than beams for the shortrange damage role) Eagle dominates the long and ultra-long range, unless it only has 4 turrets, in which case it is simply "comparable" in the area it is supposed to excel.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:42:00 - [894] Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:41:53
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:42:00 - [895] Originally by: KD.Fluffy Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 25/08/2007 23:29:14 Originally by: kd.fluffy allright heres the two setups I compared. These setups are both PURE sniping fits for the sake of a fair comparison. Muninn: high: 5x artillery II medium: 1 sensor booster, 2x tracking computer low: 3x gyrostab IIs, 1x signal amplifier Eagle: high: 4 250mm railgun II medium: 3x tracking computer, 2x sensor booster II low: 3x magnetic field stabilizer IIs to hit 114km optimal muninn can achieve eagle must load lead charge. Muninn does 230dps, eagle does 158 dps. Giving the eagle faction ammo which not everyone has eagle will be doing 182 dps. If you give the eagle a fifth turret with faction ammo it will be doing 227 dps. If your like most people and are just loading t1 ammo you will be doing 197 dps. muninn will still have hte dps edge not to mention NUMEROUS other advantages. Capless weapons, much higher alpha strike, more agility, much more damage in closer ranges, and a drone bay. Really I think its a freakin shame that the eagle is so underpowered and ccp I humbly bequeth you to add another turret. dude, nothing ridiculus about those fits...... they look like sniping fits to me... Quote: You keep saying they are wrong. But you keep lieing about it, never showing why it isnt wrong, and puting up completly ridiculous fits to prove the ship is underpowered. How many times do we have to explain that drones and missiles are useless at these ranges. To do this you have to use the best NAVY ammo. The same ammo that is readily available due to the LP store. We have been over why the Rokh isnt overpowered[though in reality, its pretty god damn strong compared to the rest] as shown above, I have countered your charts, which are wrong. 5t eagle will at BEST match muninn's damage, and never outdamage save for a few funky ranges inside of 100km. An eagle with the same turrets as its competitors is perfectly balanced.. CCP finally got it right with the rokh, now please do the same for the eagle! Drones and missles ARE NOT useless at that range. A drone bay is a great defense against small ships that the eagle is denied and the muninn has. Maybe muninn's drone bay and a one missle la uncher should be taken away...... wonder how many times im gonna have to quote this....
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:49:00 - [896] Originally by: KD.Fluffy wonder how many times im gonna have to quote this.... Until you realize how ridiculous those fits are.
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:52:00 - [897] Originally by: goumendumb Until you realize how ridiculous those fits are. you may say they are ridicules, but I like to call it specialized... its called a pure sniping fit, and people do fly them all the time.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.04 16:54:00 - [898] Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:54:50 Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:54:13 Originally by: Goumindong Pulse lasers do not work for fleet combat. What the ** has fleet combat got to do with this? HACs operate almost exclusively in small gangs, where, shock horror, the close-range damage dealer is supreme. Quote: "Mid range" starts at 40km, the Muninn is already equal to the Eagle at those ranges, not even considerering the problems with drones Mid range, for a cruiser, starts at 20km, and extends to approximately 75km. Anything above this can easily be considered long range, and anything above 150km ultra-long range. Originally by:** Goumindong Until you realize how ridiculous those fits are. Ok then, show us how we should be fitting them, oh god of sniping HACs.
MailFan Stormlord Battleforce Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.04 18:08:00 - [899] Originally by: Goumindong The point is that people here are saying the Deimos is better with rails than the eagle. It isnt. The eagle performs a role and the deimos doesnt, because the deimos isnt able to perform against the targets that that class of ships needs to perform against to be usefull in a fleet. No we don't say the Deimos is a better railgun platform than the Eagle. The Deimos is a better ship than the Eagle. It can deal more damage up till 100km, it is faster, easier to fit, can PvP solo and in gangs and is generally much more versatile. It doesn't outperfom the Eagle above 100km. Ofcourse it doesn't, that wasn't even the reason of adding the Deimos to the discussion. Deimos vs Eagle Inty shooting @ 150km Quote: The issue is giving the Eagle the 5th turret, which doesnt affect its performance much in the short range[where it will still be had], but really affects it largly in the long range, where it is already the best. Yes it does help Close Range without making it overpowered. No it doesn't make it overpowered in Long Range shooting cruisers. No it doesn't make it overpowered in Long Range shooting inty's with Lead or shooting inty's Long Range with Iron. Yes it does make the underpowered 4 Turret Eagle better. Your Graph is incorrect. You capture a situation in a graph where you try to reload for every 20km drop in range. A reload time of 10 seconds means a ship can close in to you with 2km/s and you will do 0 total dps. Please make this the last time where you post such a graph. Quote: "Mid range" starts at 40km, the Muninn is already equal to the Eagle at those ranges, not even considerering the problems with drones. That's your opinion. Mine is close range stops above 15-20km (I.e out of webrange) and most Blasters optimal range. You know blasters being short range weapons etc.. -- I'm in this mood because of scorn. I'm in a mood for total war
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.04 18:38:00 - [900] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 04/09/2007 18:37:59 Originally by: Goumindong Pulse lasers do not work for fleet combat. You are exactly right. Nobody would ever use pulse lasers on a Zealot in fleet combat. See: Originally by: BoB Fleet Setups Guide High: 4x Heavy Pulse Laser II. Scorch, Faction Oh wait, you're exactly wrong.



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