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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.12 23:53:00 -
[241]
 Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote:
That is like saying destroyers have no bearing on Assault Frigate, Frigate, or interceptor balance. Like saying cruisers have no breaing on HAC balance.
WEll ****, i guess the cerb needs to do more damage because the drake can out damage and tank it. Buff the cerb.
Range...
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bldyannoyed
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2007.08.12 23:57:00 -
[242]
Now i'll admit to being a bit of a fence sitter on the Eagle issue.
Yes its got range, no it aint got damage, yes it has a sick tank if it wants to ( and it really does ) no it hasnt got any drones.
But in light of the sisi HAC buffs ( Deimos needed, but Muninn and Zealot? hmmmmmm) i'll be stunned if CCP dont acknowledge that the Eagle needs something else.
Even a drone bay and a bit more grid to fit 4 guns and an MWD with no RCU....
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
MailFan
Horizon.Inc
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.12 23:57:00 -
[243]
Edited by: MailFan on 12/08/2007 23:57:49
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote:
That is like saying destroyers have no bearing on Assault Frigate, Frigate, or interceptor balance. Like saying cruisers have no breaing on HAC balance.
WEll ****, i guess the cerb needs to do more damage because the drake can out damage and tank it. Buff the cerb.
Range...
You seem to be obsessed with range. Do you really think range is all the matters in EVE? First you are complaining about the Eagle sniping further than a Muninn. Now its the Cerb with its 'awesome' missiles reaching further than a Muninn.
Go train Caldari and see how much fun it is!
--
I'm in this mood because of scorn. I'm in a mood for total war
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.13 00:04:00 -
[244]
Originally by: MailFan
Edited by: MailFan on 12/08/2007 23:57:49
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote:
That is like saying destroyers have no bearing on Assault Frigate, Frigate, or interceptor balance. Like saying cruisers have no breaing on HAC balance.
WEll ****, i guess the cerb needs to do more damage because the drake can out damage and tank it. Buff the cerb.
Range...
You seem to be obsessed with range. Do you really think range is all the matters in EVE? First you are complaining about the Eagle sniping further than a Muninn. Now its the Cerb with its 'awesome' missiles reaching further than a Muninn.
Go train Caldari and see how much fun it is!
No, its what differentiates the HACs from the battlecruisers.
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MrRookie
Caldari
Dark and Light inc.
D-L
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Posted - 2007.08.13 00:39:00 -
[245]
I'd really like to see that 5th turret 
Sig removed. Please email us at [email protected] if you would like to know why. -Conuion Meow
May I have pink next time plz? |
Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 00:53:00 -
[246]
Goumingdong, are you trolling? I just have to ask... because you have no idea what "balance" means when speaking of PVP.
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.13 01:04:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Goumingdong, are you trolling? I just have to ask... because you have no idea what "balance" means when speaking of PVP.
Liang
No, not trolling.
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.13 12:06:00 -
[248]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 13/08/2007 12:13:35
Well you really aren't adding much to the topic are you? You continue to ignore the huge benefits both the Muninn and the Zealot has over the Eagle. You completely underestimate the usefullness of alpha damage, you underestimate the speed advantage and the drone advantage. In fact your only counter-argument appears to be the range bonus the Eagle has over the other two.
Once again, you don't even fly it. Have you been playing eve since the need for speed initiative and the hitpoint buff? Are you aware of just how obsolete vast range has become at the top level of pvp? I'll fly at Eagles all day long in my Crow and they won't touch me before I'm ontop of them in less than 15seconds.
The consensus is that the Eagle doesn't do enough damage, your consensus of one disagrees and you don't even fly it.
The best course of action is to try it out on sisi, whether the developers will actually take heed is another matter.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.08.13 12:42:00 -
[249]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 13/08/2007 12:35:54
Well you really aren't adding much to the topic are you? You continue to ignore the benefits both the Muninn and the Zealot have over the Eagle. You completely underestimate the use of high alpha damage, you underestimate the speed advantage and the drone advantage. In fact your only counter-argument appears to be the range bonus the Eagle has over the other two.
Have you been playing eve since the need for speed initiative and the hitpoint buff? Are you aware of just how obsolete vast range has become at the top level of pvp? I'll fly at Eagles all day long in my Crow and they won't touch me before I'm ontop of them in less than 15 seconds. In short the Eagle even struggles as an anti-support platform, it needs more damage to compete with a larger size of ship. Tbh I can't believe people actually think 'anti-support' warrants the cost or use ahead of a different hac in the first place. The Eagle has been consistently under-powered since inception and will probably remain so until CCP realise just how worthless range without damage is in modern eve.
The consensus is that the Eagle doesn't do enough damage, your consensus of one disagrees and you don't even fly it.
The best course of action is to try it out on sisi, whether the developers will actually take heed is another matter.
Well as for the best course of action, I agree. Get it changed on Sisi. Make extensive tests with Eagle, Zealot, Munin and interceptors/frigates to determine the actual in-game balance.
Don't forget other roles (like close-medium range setups).
Goumindong, are you up to it ? Then you can prove with combat logs that you were right all the time, we'll shut up and accept your proposal (if it turns out to be better).
Originally by: JP Beauregard
The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls.... 
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.13 13:04:00 -
[250]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 13/08/2007 12:35:54
Well you really aren't adding much to the topic are you? You continue to ignore the benefits both the Muninn and the Zealot have over the Eagle. You completely underestimate the use of high alpha damage, you underestimate the speed advantage and the drone advantage. In fact your only counter-argument appears to be the range bonus the Eagle has over the other two.
Have you been playing eve since the need for speed initiative and the hitpoint buff? Are you aware of just how obsolete vast range has become at the top level of pvp? I'll fly at Eagles all day long in my Crow and they won't touch me before I'm ontop of them in less than 15 seconds. In short the Eagle even struggles as an anti-support platform, it needs more damage to compete with a larger size of ship. Tbh I can't believe people actually think 'anti-support' warrants the cost or use ahead of a different hac in the first place. The Eagle has been consistently under-powered since inception and will probably remain so until CCP realise just how worthless range without damage is in modern eve.
The consensus is that the Eagle doesn't do enough damage, your consensus of one disagrees and you don't even fly it.
The best course of action is to try it out on sisi, whether the developers will actually take heed is another matter.
You either have a very fast crow, or the eagles you are flying against arent loading tech 1/faction ammo.
You do not need a concensus to see it, all you have to do is plot the damage with tech 1/faction ammo to see that the Eagle really does impressive dps for its range.
And that any deficiencies it has cannot be fixed by making it overpowered in one area just so that it is decent in another. It doesnt need more damage to compete with a larger size of ship because nothing competes with it. No ship can come close to the damage or tracking an eagle puts out.
If you give it DPS to compete with larger ships, then what is the point of having a larger ship when this one hits farther and does more or equal damage?
The worst course of action is to put the changes on sisi, because everyone here knows that when things get to sisi they dont change until they have been live for a significant amount of time[baring the 1% exception]
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.08.13 13:14:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Goumindong
The worst course of action is to put the changes on sisi, because everyone here knows that when things get to sisi they dont change until they have been live for a significant amount of time[baring the 1% exception]
How then do you want to test this ??? Math and oppinion spining on the forums won't help us. And as a side effect, we can get CCP used to that approach and get some benefits for the future problems maybe ?
Originally by: JP Beauregard
The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
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Sorja
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.08.13 13:15:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Goumindong
You either have a very fast crow, or the eagles you are flying against arent loading tech 1/faction ammo.
Get a clue mate, honestly.
Last time Eagles tried to snipe me in a Crow, it went like this:
1¦ I decloak in a camp in a LARGE bubble.
2¦ Aligne to a Celestial.
3¦ Hit MWD when speed it over 50% max.
4¦ Take Eagle fire from 150km off.
5¦ Get out of the large bubble with 60% shields left.
6¦ Warp to said celestial.
7¦ Warp back to the gate at 100 at tackle BOTH eagles.
Yes, they were 2.
Yes, they didn't dent my armor.
Yes, they were experienced pilots.
I've flown sniping Eagles myself and if not for lag I could not kill any decent interceptor pilot.
____________________
A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Ejderdisi
Caldari
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.13 13:19:00 -
[253]
FYI at above post. Crow pilot wasn't shield tanked. It had only speed which didnt matter from 150km. Eagles hit it as best as they could .(2 eagles) He warp out come back and tackle them...
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.13 13:23:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Goumindong
The worst course of action is to put the changes on sisi, because everyone here knows that when things get to sisi they dont change until they have been live for a significant amount of time[baring the 1% exception]
How then do you want to test this ??? Math and oppinion spining on the forums won't help us. And as a side effect, we can get CCP used to that approach and get some benefits for the future problems maybe ?
O.K. we can get on sisi, load up your eagle, and orbit at different ranges with different ammos and different [tech 1 for all, since faction wont be readily available on sisi]. We can time how long it takes to kill an interceptor[ill gladly be the target, in a crusader] with an eagle, Zealot, and Muninn.
I can fly the Zealot with spec 3, hac 4[or the crusader with average propulsion mods].
It will show just how strong the eagle is compared to the other two.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.13 13:35:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Sorja
Yes, they were 2.
Yes, they didn't dent my armor.
Yes, they were experienced pilots.
If they were experienced pilots they would have killed your crows shields in ~3.5 seconds[2 volleys] and been into structure[second volley would take all the rest of your shields and all your armor away]. The third volley, at 7 seconds would have killed you.
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Wardog 1
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.08.13 14:08:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Sorja
Yes, they were 2.
Yes, they didn't dent my armor.
Yes, they were experienced pilots.
If they were experienced pilots they would have killed your crows shields in ~3.5 seconds[2 volleys] and been into structure[second volley would take all the rest of your shields and all your armor away]. The third volley, at 7 seconds would have killed you.
Experience really doesn't have much to do with locking and pressing f1-f8. Maybe someone whos been playing the game for a few years can press the buttons quicker ?
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.13 14:17:00 -
[257]
Originally by: Wardog 1
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Sorja
Yes, they were 2.
Yes, they didn't dent my armor.
Yes, they were experienced pilots.
If they were experienced pilots they would have killed your crows shields in ~3.5 seconds[2 volleys] and been into structure[second volley would take all the rest of your shields and all your armor away]. The third volley, at 7 seconds would have killed you.
Experience really doesn't have much to do with locking and pressing f1-f8. Maybe someone whos been playing the game for a few years can press the buttons quicker ?
No, but it does have to do with loading the right ammo.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.08.13 14:22:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Wardog 1
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Sorja
Yes, they were 2.
Yes, they didn't dent my armor.
Yes, they were experienced pilots.
If they were experienced pilots they would have killed your crows shields in ~3.5 seconds[2 volleys] and been into structure[second volley would take all the rest of your shields and all your armor away]. The third volley, at 7 seconds would have killed you.
Experience really doesn't have much to do with locking and pressing f1-f8. Maybe someone whos been playing the game for a few years can press the buttons quicker ?
No, but it does have to do with loading the right ammo.
Note the range. They were at 150km. with 250mm II rails and 3x TCII, you range is 114KM. This means you either shoot t1/faction ammo with lower damage than spike, or you are shooting spike. In both cases you lack damage or tracking.
I bet they were shooting spike at that distance (which of course makes them the bigest loosers in EVE since they don't know the proper ammo, right ?).
Originally by: JP Beauregard
The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.13 14:35:00 -
[259]
Edited by: Goumindong on 13/08/2007 14:38:49
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Wardog 1
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Sorja
Yes, they were 2.
Yes, they didn't dent my armor.
Yes, they were experienced pilots.
If they were experienced pilots they would have killed your crows shields in ~3.5 seconds[2 volleys] and been into structure[second volley would take all the rest of your shields and all your armor away]. The third volley, at 7 seconds would have killed you.
Experience really doesn't have much to do with locking and pressing f1-f8. Maybe someone whos been playing the game for a few years can press the buttons quicker ?
No, but it does have to do with loading the right ammo.
Note the range. They were at 150km. with 250mm II rails and 3x TCII, you range is 114KM. This means you either shoot t1/faction ammo with lower damage than spike, or you are shooting spike. In both cases you lack damage or tracking.
I bet they were shooting spike at that distance (which of course makes them the bigest loosers in EVE since they don't know the proper ammo, right ?).
The numbers i was figuring were with CN Iorn. So yea, if they were shooting spike they were shooting the wrong ammo. At 150km, CN iorn does roughly twice the DPS of spike ammo when shooting against a crow traveling 3000m/s transversal. At 4000m/s trasnversal CN Iorn does roughly 4 times the dps of spike. at 2000m/s about 10% more DPS. At 5000m/s 9 times the dps.
So yea, they were shooting the wrong ammo.
ed: and these numbers are actualy a little bit LOW because the eve-o tracking guide does not calculate hit quality reductions.
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MailFan
Horizon.Inc
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.13 16:45:00 -
[260]
Edited by: MailFan on 13/08/2007 16:45:48
Didn't we allready agree that at a range of max 106km optimal and 25km falloff for the Muninn (which means a max range of 150km) the Eagle and Muninnn do exactly the same damage with almost exactly the same tracking with Faction ammo? So what really is your point? Its not like the Eagle is a better sniper at that range is it?
The Eagle is supposed to be the best sniper HAC in game, then why does it do the same damage as the Muninn? Did I say the same damage? Ofcourse I mean to say less damage when we're going below the 100-150km border, since you have drones and better suited weapons and 5 slots and 2 damage bonuses...
--
I'm in this mood because of scorn. I'm in a mood for total war
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KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:35:00 -
[261]
The eagle imo, should be the best sniper. Its the ONLY thing its really capable of. Muninn and zealot can both fill other roles, ealge is a dedicated sniper, and shoudl be the best. Other wise, it better get a speed buff and a drone bay, so it can play some other roles too.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:47:00 -
[262]
Originally by: MailFan
Edited by: MailFan on 13/08/2007 17:31:26
Didn't we allready agree that at a range of max 106km optimal and 25km falloff for the Muninn (which means a max range of 150km) the Eagle and Muninnn do exactly the same damage with almost exactly the same tracking with Faction ammo? So what really is your point? Its not like the Eagle is a better sniper at that range is it?
You just want your Muninn to sniper better than an Eagle and probably also want to have the most dps at close range. You allready showed a Munnin does over 600dps, while the Eagle struggles to hit 400.
The Eagle is supposed to be the best sniper HAC in game, then why does it do the same damage as the Muninn? Did I say the same damage? Ofcourse I mean to say less damage when we're going below the 100-150km border, since you have drones and better suited weapons and 5 slots and 2 damage bonuses...
Because it can do that and also hit out to 180km while the Muninn cannot.
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Alyssee
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:11:00 -
[263]
One man's crusade to keep Caldari underpowered, in a forum near you.
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KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 21:21:00 -
[264]
Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 13/08/2007 21:22:13
Quote:
Because it can do that and also hit out to 180km while the Muninn cannot.
and the muninn can get inclose and do 600 dps while being mobile.... the eagle cannot.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 21:24:00 -
[265]
Originally by: Alyssee
One man's crusade to keep Caldari underpowered, in a forum near you.
QFT! 
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.13 21:34:00 -
[266]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 13/08/2007 21:22:13
Quote:
Because it can do that and also hit out to 180km while the Muninn cannot.
and the muninn can get inclose and do 600 dps while being mobile.... the eagle cannot.
500 DPS and no, its not mobile doing that.
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KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:12:00 -
[267]
Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 13/08/2007 22:12:39
Quote:
500 DPS and no, its not mobile doing that.
mobile compared to the vaga...? no.. mobile compared to normal ships? certianly, mobile compared to eagle? no question. And this is all before the buff the muninn is getting on test server... ccp really makes me wonder sometimes.
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:48:00 -
[268]
650. I would love to see the setup that gets that considering it gets 518 with quake
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MECHcore
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:56:00 -
[269]
Edited by: MECHcore on 13/08/2007 22:56:59
If you want the dps of a 5th turret on the eagle then fit something like this 
beagle o doom
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Hango ([email protected]) |
KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.14 00:09:00 -
[270]
Quote:
650. I would love to see the setup that gets that considering it gets 518 with quake
try autocannons... it gets twice the damage of a beagle, plus the benefit of frig defense. Now you may say "vaga or cane does this better blah blah blah... " and that might be true, it however has NOTHING to do with balance between the hacs. muninn shoudl always do less dps then an eagle, its guns have higher alpha and don't require cap to fire...
ccp please consider a buff to this ship it really needs some love.
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