Originally by: enymphia

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if u give the eagle a 5th slot u should give the vulture 7 turret slots.

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Originally by: Djerin

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The Eagle is a worthwhile HAC to fly. Just dont use it against heavy targets and without a fleet or think outside of the box..

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Originally by: Hotshothotshot1

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yup, i wouldnt mind if they took away 1 range bonus for a 5th turret. so what if it can hit at 200km away. I will need to setup myself 200km away from the action or where the action will be. i rather have less range and more damage

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Originally by: Igualmentedos

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Originally by: Hotshothotshot1

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yup, i wouldnt mind if they took away 1 range bonus for a 5th turret. so what if it can hit at 200km away. I will need to setup myself 200km away from the action or where the action will be. i rather have less range and more damage

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they should just ignore range altogether, it's pretty much useless. Especially with warp to zero.

Give caldari ROF bonuses not optimal bonuses.

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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TBH, both the Ferox and Vulture could really do with an extra turret.

As it stands, the Ferox is a bit on the weedy side for a BC, and the Vulture has the same DPS as an Eagle with HAC 5. ( 4 turrets + 25% damage bonus vs 5 unbonused on the Vulture ).

Compare that to an Eos, the ( potential ) new Damnation and a Claymore and again the Vulture comes up short.


The Eagle really doesnt though.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 01:26:59

Originally by: bldyannoyed

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TBH, both the Ferox and Vulture could really do with an extra turret.

As it stands, the Ferox is a bit on the weedy side for a BC, and the Vulture has the same DPS as an Eagle with HAC 5. ( 4 turrets + 25% damage bonus vs 5 unbonused on the Vulture ).

Compare that to an Eos, the ( potential ) new Damnation and a Claymore and again the Vulture comes up short.


The Eagle really doesnt though.

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The vulture is the only command ship that has a real role in a fleet. It, and the Eagle, fill an imporant niche that is uncontested by any other ship in eve. They do not need more damage.

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Originally by: Pilk

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 01:26:59

Originally by: bldyannoyed

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TBH, both the Ferox and Vulture could really do with an extra turret.

As it stands, the Ferox is a bit on the weedy side for a BC, and the Vulture has the same DPS as an Eagle with HAC 5. ( 4 turrets + 25% damage bonus vs 5 unbonused on the Vulture ).

Compare that to an Eos, the ( potential ) new Damnation and a Claymore and again the Vulture comes up short.


The Eagle really doesnt though.

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The vulture is the only command ship that has a real role in a fleet. It, and the Eagle, fill an imporant niche that is uncontested by any other ship in eve. They do not need more damage.

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What role is that? Taking out MWD'ing ceptors who don't know how to move, or killing 'dictors that are likewise flying stupidly?

Anything beyond that, and the damage just isn't there.

--P

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Pilk

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 01:26:59

Originally by: bldyannoyed

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TBH, both the Ferox and Vulture could really do with an extra turret.

As it stands, the Ferox is a bit on the weedy side for a BC, and the Vulture has the same DPS as an Eagle with HAC 5. ( 4 turrets + 25% damage bonus vs 5 unbonused on the Vulture ).

Compare that to an Eos, the ( potential ) new Damnation and a Claymore and again the Vulture comes up short.


The Eagle really doesnt though.

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The vulture is the only command ship that has a real role in a fleet. It, and the Eagle, fill an imporant niche that is uncontested by any other ship in eve. They do not need more damage.

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What role is that? Taking out MWD'ing ceptors who don't know how to move, or killing 'dictors that are likewise flying stupidly?

Anything beyond that, and the damage just isn't there.

--P

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Long range anit-support. Does really well at it.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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And what do you need such an uberly long range for? If you are in a gang and you have a target 150km away, you just send a ceptor to it and warp upon him...

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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Giving the Eagle a 5th turret, on top of the damage bonus it gets for HAC, coupled with the fact that any sensible Eagle ftting can comfortably accomodate 4 250 II rails, a full injected shield tank AND 3 MFS II, would simply mean it out DPS'ing ANY other HAC at ANY given range, assuming the other HAC's are fitting a some kind of tank, and not just a full gank fit.

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Quote:

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Its got range, damage ( with 3 MFS which theres no reason not to fit )

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Quote:

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and due to its resist bonus the best tank of any HAC, except possibly the Sacrilege.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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And what do you need such an uberly long range for? If you are in a gang and you have a target 150km away, you just send a ceptor to it and warp upon him...

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Your ceptor never made it, got killed by an eagle.

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Originally by: enymphia

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if u give the eagle a 5th slot u should give the vulture 7 turret slots.

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Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis

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Originally by: enymphia

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if u give the eagle a 5th slot u should give the vulture 7 turret slots.

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The Vulture is a gang command platform, not a 'omglolfrigsanddrones' pwning platform.

Vulture is fine with 5 hardpoints, NH should get +1 launcher slot.

Honestly, all Field commands should have 5 weapon hardpoints, and the Fleet commands should have 7.

Both types should have 8 highslots, meaning the extra 3(1) slots are for the gangmods.

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Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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And what do you need such an uberly long range for? If you are in a gang and you have a target 150km away, you just send a ceptor to it and warp upon him...

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Your ceptor never made it, got killed by an eagle.

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Only if the pilot is an idiot. Tracking on a Vulture/Eagle isn't all that great, since you're using spike ammo at this uberly-long-range. If your inty pilot is halfway competent, he's coming in with high transversal and laughing at the Eagle.

Of course this just proves my point from the other thread. In this situation, other ships are just as good at killing support. It doesn't matter all that much if the inty is nailed by an Eagle that opens fire at 150km, or insta-popped by a Munnin at 100km. Either way it's dead well short of the target. The Eagle is not the uncontested master of the role.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis

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Originally by: enymphia

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if u give the eagle a 5th slot u should give the vulture 7 turret slots.

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The Vulture is a gang command platform, not a 'omglolfrigsanddrones' pwning platform.

Vulture is fine with 5 hardpoints, NH should get +1 launcher slot.

Honestly, all Field commands should have 5 weapon hardpoints, and the Fleet commands should have 7.

Both types should have 8 highslots, meaning the extra 3(1) slots are for the gangmods.

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So we leave the "'omglolfrigsanddrones' pwning platform" to the non caldari CS?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 06:28:40
It should be noted, that when firing the right ammo for the job, the Eagle has a 50%-80% "hidden damage bonus" due to ammo selection over its rivals.

That is, at 100km, they will be shooting 10 or 12 dmg ammo.

And the eagle will be shooting 18 damage ammo.

This brings the Eagles damage up in these areas much more that would typically be expexcted. And in those ranges the eagle shouldnt be expected to outdamage the Zealot or Muninn.

At 100km, with faction ammo and eagle will be doing 194 dps.

A Zealot will be dealing 166 dps.

A muninn will be doing 200 dps.

faction ammo is typically considered better than t2 for anti-support due to tracking.[and if the Zealots and Muninns are fitting t2 ammo, they will have about 1/3 the tracking of the eagle]

So it seems the Eagle really isnt outgunned in that area after all.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Well if you shift the range down to 80 km and keep on to faction ammo due to tracking, the Munnin deals the same damage as the Eagle using Fed Carbonized Lead while the Eagle uses CN Thorium. Just adding missiles to the calculation can shift the calculation to the Eagle (but considering the very very long time until they hit, i wouldnt bet on them). If you use Tremor, the Eagle become clearly outdamaged.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Well if you shift the range down to 80 km and keep on to faction ammo due to tracking, the Munnin deals the same damage as the Eagle using Fed Carbonized Lead while the Eagle uses CN Thorium. Just adding missiles to the calculation can shift the calculation to the Eagle (but considering the very very long time until they hit, i wouldnt bet on them). If you use Tremor, the Eagle become clearly outdamaged.

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Yes, but tremor wont hit the intended targets due to tracking ;)

Missiles and drones will never get to the targets in time, so i ingore those as well at decent ranges. The issue is that the eagle isnt so outclassed as many people seem to think at higher ranges, when using t1 ammo[a necessity to hit fast ships] the effect the optimal boosts have becomes more readily apparent.

I used those ranges because they are the very tip of the range of the muninn/zealot, and the ammos they are most likly to be using.

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Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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Giving the Eagle a 5th turret, on top of the damage bonus it gets for HAC, coupled with the fact that any sensible Eagle ftting can comfortably accomodate 4 250 II rails, a full injected shield tank AND 3 MFS II, would simply mean it out DPS'ing ANY other HAC at ANY given range, assuming the other HAC's are fitting a some kind of tank, and not just a full gank fit.

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1) No it can't. The Eagle can fit 4x 250mm II rails, MWD and sniping gear, but just barely. Adding a cap injector, booster, and useful things in the extra high slots requires fitting mods... and that means you aren't fitting 3x MFS IIs.

2) A 3-slot tank (what you get after fitting MWD/injector) is not that impressive. The HAC resists are nice, but this is far from game-breaking.

3) The Eagle will NOT out-dps all other HACs, for the simple reason that rails have low base damage compared to other weapons. It will out-dps some HACs for the simple reason that it out-ranges them as well (since any damage is greater than zero), but it will not be some all-range solo pwnmobile.

4) Have you ever actually used 250mm rails? The tracking on them is awful, you won't be out-dps-ing much at close/medium range because you can't hit anything.

Quote:

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Its got range, damage ( with 3 MFS which theres no reason not to fit )

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Except for the need to fit a tank. The Eagle can only fit 3x MFS in full sniper setup, and that means no tank and no all-range pwnmobile.

Quote:

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and due to its resist bonus the best tank of any HAC, except possibly the Sacrilege.

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Until you try to fit a MWD and cap injector to sustain your tank. Suddenly even without tackling, you're down to 3 slots to tank with, and your tank isn't really any better than other HACs.

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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4x 250II

LSBII,, medium electrochem injector, SBA II, photon II, Invuln II

3x MFS II Tracking enhancer II

ACR, em screen

80/80/85/90 resists

250 DPS at 46km with CN AM

At 45km, 250 tracking is just fine. You want bad tracking, use artillery.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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4x 250II

LSBII,, medium electrochem injector, SBA II, photon II, Invuln II

3x MFS II Tracking enhancer II

ACR, em screen

80/80/85/90 resists

250 DPS at 46km with CN AM

At 45km, 250 tracking is just fine. You want bad tracking, use artillery.

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stay at 46km in a ship that doesnt even haven an AB? sounds like a bad idea.. and you want to put an ACR on that ship, 30M on that slowboat? another idea which doesnt look very good to me.

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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Edited by: bldyannoyed on 05/08/2007 19:32:11
Actually, as people seem to be convinced a Deimos can do better ranged damage than an Eagle, i thought id run some numbers. ( Assume HAC 5, AWU 5).

Eagle build:

4x 250 II

Large Booster II, SAB II, medium electro injector, photon II, invuln II

3x MFS II, RCU II

Hybrid Locus coordinator ( fits with hybrid rigging lvl 1 ) EM screen

255 DPS with CN AM with 46km optimal

80/80/85/90 resists

Deimos build: ( Will only fit with AWU 5)

5x 250 II

Medium electro injector, 2x Tracking compII

2x MAR II, Armor Explosive II, 2x RCU II

Em and Explosive Pump

240 DPS with CN AM @ 23km Optimal.

76/74/86/72 resists.


I woudl say they have comparable tanks, but quite obviously, the Eagle out DPS's the Deimos AT ALL RANGES. Who knew.

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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By the time 5 hammerhead II's had travelled 45km to the Eagle they would ALL BE DEAD.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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By the time 5 hammerhead II's had travelled 45km to the Eagle they would ALL BE DEAD.

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How long will it take the eagle to lock the drones? and even if he managed to shoot one, he looses a lot of damage to a stupid drone. After the drone are close, the eagle is defenseless against them.

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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4x 250II

LSBII,, medium electrochem injector, SBA II, photon II, Invuln II

3x MFS II Tracking enhancer II

ACR, em screen

80/80/85/90 resists

250 DPS at 46km with CN AM

At 45km, 250 tracking is just fine. You want bad tracking, use artillery.

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Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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4x 250II

LSBII,, medium electrochem injector, SBA II, photon II, Invuln II

3x MFS II Tracking enhancer II

ACR, em screen

80/80/85/90 resists

250 DPS at 46km with CN AM

At 45km, 250 tracking is just fine. You want bad tracking, use artillery.

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Not acceptable. MWD is mandatory for pvp, period. Not only that, but you're planning on fighting in antimatter range (easily in missile range), but you're leaving two high slots empty.

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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Edited by: bldyannoyed on 05/08/2007 19:52:05

Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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By the time 5 hammerhead II's had travelled 45km to the Eagle they would ALL BE DEAD.

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How long will it take the eagle to lock the drones? and even if he managed to shoot one, he looses a lot of damage to a stupid drone. After the drone are close, the eagle is defenseless against them.

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Mebbe 5 seconds to lock em, and 2 volleys to pop em.

Not that they would make any difference in the long run cos they be beating against the 90% thermal resist the Eagle had, and the Deimos would be long dead before the Eagle even broke a sweat.


YOU seem to be forgetting that at 45km the Deimos will have virtually ZERO DPS from its guns, and also has no speed mod cos it couldn't squeeze one in either. So, even with the 150 DPS from the drones, the Eagle still outdamage the Deimos at ranges over about 35km.

Exactly like its supposed to.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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RSD is omnipresent nowadays, and it shows you the problem that the range bonus isnt that much worth, because you cant use it in most situations. If you put a RSD on a deimos it can still lock at a nice range to use antimatter at its full range with a significantly higher damage output than the eagle which will lose the range bonus for its antimatter.

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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RSD is omnipresent nowadays, and it shows you the problem that the range bonus isnt that much worth, because you cant use it in most situations. If you put a RSD on a deimos it can still lock at a nice range to use antimatter at its full range with a significantly higher damage output than the eagle which will lose the range bonus for its antimatter.

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Well in that case just fit 3 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps, 3 magstabs and a tracking enhancer, load spike and go to 200km where noone can get you.


Just something else an Eagle can do that no other HAC can.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 05/08/2007 20:38:45

Originally by: bldyannoyed

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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RSD is omnipresent nowadays, and it shows you the problem that the range bonus isnt that much worth, because you cant use it in most situations. If you put a RSD on a deimos it can still lock at a nice range to use antimatter at its full range with a significantly higher damage output than the eagle which will lose the range bonus for its antimatter.

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Well in that case just fit 3 sensor boosters, 2 tracking comps, 3 magstabs and a tracking enhancer, load spike and go to 200km where noone can get you.


Just something else an Eagle can do that no other HAC can.

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Sure, but how many damage will you deal from that position with that that kind of fitting? Oh its less than 5 light drones... see why the eagle needs a 5th turret?

Edit: 5 light drones from a droneboat i have to admit

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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If you give it more guns, you should drop its optimal range bonus. You can't expect to have both range and damage, and most Caldari pilots who complain about how weak Caldari are don't care for the extra range anyway.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/08/2007 21:40:37

Originally by: Hannobaal

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If you give it more guns, you should drop its optimal range bonus. You can't expect to have both range and damage, and most Caldari pilots who complain about how weak Caldari are don't care for the extra range anyway.

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Why? One extra gun will still only give it about 60% of your precious Diemos damage. You ever tried fitting rails to a Diemos? Makes a good sniper, better than the Eagle because in Eve-Online damage is preferable to range.

Further have you ever tried shooting an assault frigate in an Eagle? With full skills its gonna take about 30 seconds to blow it up. That's a HAC, shooting a moving frigate, in its optimal, with antimatter. Do you think that is good enough?

Basically they needed to add an extra turret or two to every single Caldari ship (apart from the Harpy & Rokh) after they implemented the hitpoint buff because right now, none of them are good enough.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/08/2007 21:40:37

Originally by: Hannobaal

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If you give it more guns, you should drop its optimal range bonus. You can't expect to have both range and damage, and most Caldari pilots who complain about how weak Caldari are don't care for the extra range anyway.

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Why? One extra gun will still only give it about 60% of your precious Diemos damage. You ever tried fitting rails to a Diemos? Makes a good sniper, better than the Eagle because in Eve-Online damage is preferable to range.

Further have you ever tried shooting an assault frigate in an Eagle? With full skills its gonna take about 30 seconds to blow it up. That's a HAC, shooting a moving frigate, in its optimal, with antimatter. Do you think that is good enough?

Basically they needed to add an extra turret or two to every single Caldari ship (apart from the Harpy & Rokh) after they implemented the hitpoint buff because right now, none of them are good enough.

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The current eagle outdamaqes the Deimos >60km when both are shooting faction ammo[so as to hit small ships]. Its really not that impressive as a sniper unless you are shooting at battlecruisers.

If it gets the 5th turret, it should lose the damage bonus and get something else in its place.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/08/2007 21:40:37

Originally by: Hannobaal

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If you give it more guns, you should drop its optimal range bonus. You can't expect to have both range and damage, and most Caldari pilots who complain about how weak Caldari are don't care for the extra range anyway.

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Why? One extra gun will still only give it about 60% of your precious Diemos damage. You ever tried fitting rails to a Diemos? Makes a good sniper, better than the Eagle because in Eve-Online damage is preferable to range.

Further have you ever tried shooting an assault frigate in an Eagle? With full skills its gonna take about 30 seconds to blow it up. That's a HAC, shooting a moving frigate, in its optimal, with antimatter. Do you think that is good enough?

Basically they needed to add an extra turret or two to every single Caldari ship (apart from the Harpy & Rokh) after they implemented the hitpoint buff because right now, none of them are good enough.

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The current eagle outdamaqes the Deimos >60km when both are shooting faction ammo[so as to hit small ships]. Its really not that impressive as a sniper unless you are shooting at battlecruisers.

If it gets the 5th turret, it should lose the damage bonus and get something else in its place.

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Wouldnt it pretty esnseless to give it 25% more damage and take 25% damage away from it? The only bonus that would make it up would be a 10% high locking range/lvl.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/08/2007 22:28:56
I'm beginning to wonder whether 'Caldari' burnt down your house or something Goumindong.

"Give them an extra 25% damage then take it away again! Also leave them with one less missile launcher slot!" Great call.

Face it, in this particular instance you're arguing for the sake of it. The Eagle sucks, the Moa sucks and the Ferox sucks in comparison to their racial opposites that we pay the same amount of isk for.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 22:46:45

Originally by: welsh wizard

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Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/08/2007 22:28:56
I'm beginning to wonder whether 'Caldari' burnt down your house or something Goumindong.

"Give them an extra 25% damage then take it away again! Also leave them with one less missile launcher slot!" Great call.

Face it, in this particular instance you're arguing for the sake of it. The Eagle sucks, the Moa sucks and the Ferox sucks in comparison to their racial opposites that we pay the same amount of isk for.

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The ferox, moa, and eagle all do need some love, but i just dont think that in the case of the eagle, it should be in that area. That the range bonus, in combinataion with the types of ammo that it uses when performing its role make it quite well performing, and that making it better performing in that area would unbalance it with regards to the rest of its competitors.

Ferox +2 turrets[and cpu/pg to fit them],+1 mid, +1 high
Seems like alot of extra love with the mid and high addition. Dont you think that is to much? agree +2 turrets like many others.
Moa, +1 turret[and cpu/pg to fit them], +10 cubes[to 25 cube drone bay]
/win, especially on the drone part.
Eagle, +1 turret[and cpu/pg to fit them], -dmg bonus, +shield hp bonus, + 25 cube drone bay.
Ok now dont you think that build will make it alot more powerful in closecombat with drones and even more shield bonus then before? While still leaving it unchanged as a sniper. Im not so sure i agree, it would make it great yeah but in the right way?
Vulture, unchanged.
/agree, the boat is meant to Tank and use group modules, it got enough turrets and range to otherwise. Althou many other fleet command ships have the options... Might need turretslot, but not as great as the ferox

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 05/08/2007 22:46:45

Originally by: welsh wizard

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Edited by: welsh wizard on 05/08/2007 22:28:56
I'm beginning to wonder whether 'Caldari' burnt down your house or something Goumindong.

"Give them an extra 25% damage then take it away again! Also leave them with one less missile launcher slot!" Great call.

Face it, in this particular instance you're arguing for the sake of it. The Eagle sucks, the Moa sucks and the Ferox sucks in comparison to their racial opposites that we pay the same amount of isk for.

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The ferox, moa, and eagle all do need some love, but i just dont think that in the case of the eagle, it should be in that area. That the range bonus, in combinataion with the types of ammo that it uses when performing its role make it quite well performing, and that making it better performing in that area would unbalance it with regards to the rest of its competitors.

Ferox +2 turrets[and cpu/pg to fit them],+1 mid, +1 high

Moa, +1 turret[and cpu/pg to fit them], +10 cubes[to 25 cube drone bay]

Eagle, +1 turret[and cpu/pg to fit them], -dmg bonus, +shield hp bonus, + 25 cube drone bay.

Vulture, unchanged.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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That's actually a nerf to the Eagles weapon damage though isn't it? It's one more turret that can miss and one less missile launcher. A drone bay to compensate? No, its a sniping ship. If your intentions are to make it a close range boat then fair enough. But only if we keep the damage bonus and lose the optimal bonus. I want a buff to the Eagle, not a nerf.

Ferox and Moa changes are basically perfect. The Ferox outdamaging its tech II counterpart though? Massive tank isn't compensation enough as far as I'm concerned. I would raise the Eos as the reason why but the Eos needs a damage nerf anyway which I'm sure you'll probably agree with.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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I'm sorry but a 5th turret is going to make the Eagle an even worse sniper than it is right now if the damage bonus is removed. I'm all thumbs up for the Eagles role as a sniper, it just doesn't do enough damage to be worthwhile ahead of anything but the Moa on a battlefield.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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That isnt a nerf to damage 5/4 = 1.25. This means the Eagle gets its full damage before HAC 5. The missile launcher is immaterial, how are you going to hit anything with missiles at sniping range anyway? Drones are much more effective in that short range that the missile launcher are effective in.

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Quote:

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The ferox outdamaging the vulture is just standard for all fleet commands except the Eos and claymore[which only matches damage when fitting missile launchers, which is uncommon]. That and 40% more damage for the vulture in the long range would utterly destroy any balance between it and the other anti-support ships.

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Quote:

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Oh, and yea, the eos is broken.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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... An eagle with 5 turrets and a damage bonus is overpowered. It utterly destroys all other ships above 60km...

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Originally by: Goumindong

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The double tank bonus does not gimp it as a sniper, no matter what other abilities it allows the ship to have. The eagle would not be the best tackler, not with 5 mids. That would be a double 1600 plated sacriledge, Zealot, or deimos

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Quote:

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Drones: NO, everyone balances their shortcomings this way. An eagle with 5 turrets and a damage bonus is overpowered. It utterly destroys all other ships above 60km.

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Quote:

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So how do you keep the eagle decently competitive in the short range without overpowering it in the long range? Why, you give it some drones!

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Quote:

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Harpy suffers from tech 2 ammo issues that other ships dont[it doesnt have as much tracking problems as the cruiser sized ammo does], suffers from lack of low slots that the cruisers dont.

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Quote:

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I dont hate the eagle, i like it. I just dont think it needs more power in its current role[and the numbers show that] and think it needs adjustments elsewhere.

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Originally by: enymphia

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if u give the eagle a 5th slot u should give the vulture 7 turret slots.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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I dont hate the eagle, i like it. I just dont think it needs more power in its current role[and the numbers show that] and think it needs adjustments elsewhere.

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Originally by: Lord Loom

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Edited by: Lord Loom on 06/08/2007 08:49:00

Originally by: Goumindong

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I dont hate the eagle, i like it. I just dont think it needs more power in its current role[and the numbers show that] and think it needs adjustments elsewhere.

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*your* numbers show that

but we all know how much you like to interpret these numbers you advertise as "objective" and "neutral" to fit your own vision of how EVE should be, which often contradicts the way real EVE is currently played. In short, your suggestions would call for an overhaul of many more aspects of the game, something that's even less likely to happen as a simple, dirty fix like an additional gun on a sniper boat that atm has ****ty DPS

and sorry, with another turret "It utterly destroys all other ships above 60km."? you fail at playing "devil's advocate" with statements like this, which is way too obviously based on "Theorycrafting by Goumindong" instead of how combat plays out in real EVE.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 06/08/2007 05:42:04

Originally by: Goumindong

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... An eagle with 5 turrets and a damage bonus is overpowered. It utterly destroys all other ships above 60km...

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Shouldnt that be the very point of the eagle? Outclass all other cruiser class ships in long range?

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Well if you want to snipe under 100km, just use a deimos, as all gallente ships it does the job better than the caldari one. If you want to snipe above 100km... well why should somebody want to?

Deimos is a way better sniper than the Eagle, with the new buff to it (omg now CCP really lost their mind) it can even keep the target at the range AND deal over 50% more damage than the eagle.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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There is a difference between "outclass" and "overpowered"

The Eagle, with 100km more range and great dps when shooting at its intended target outclasses all the other cuiser class ships in the long range. It beats the Deimos at 60km, it beats the Zealot at about 75, and it nearly beats the muninn at 100[3.6% dps below]

When all of these ships are shooting their tech 2 long range ammo, they are in compromise mode, as Battleships could be doing the job better[with tech 1 equipment no less just tech 1 ammo] Put a rokhs tracking and damage up against them when the rokh is using tech 1 ammo and just look at the differene.

So really, since their intended targets are fast support and not cruisers and faction ammo is the way to go. The numbers really do bear out that the Eagle outclasses them all. It just doesnt overpower them.

ed: Your eagle with Faction Iorn should be doing about 95-105 dps depending on skills. If you only do 60, something is wrong.

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Originally by: Pilk

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7) The Nighthawk needs another launcher HP.

--P

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Well maybe they will make some T2 class ships out of the tier 2 ships... Assault Battlecruiser maybe? ^^

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Originally by: Neuromandis

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And it is supposed to do rather similar but lower damage due to these advantages. The fact that it *still* does same/better damage up until its optimal, shows there is something clearly wrong with the eagle. Hence the 5th turret needed.

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Blaster diagram, the deimos DESTROYS the eagle at any point in existence that matters (i.e. web range) and above. Of course, everyone just says, well deimos is a blastership and it should easily beat deimos. We are not talking 10/15% more damage here, we are talking DOUBLE damage almost. DOUBLE. *Without* drones.

Rail diagram: The eagle beats the Deimos above 60km. Well, SURPRISE! Why does no-one use the argument "but Deimos is a Blastership, it is SUPPOSED to be **destroyed** by the eagle" instead of being outdamage by a lazy deimos using Spike up until the Deimos range ends?

Apart from the fact that these same drones that the Deimos CAN use in its intended role (close range), the eagle WOULD NOT be able to use in its intended role, opening up the difference even more.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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So the Muninn and Zealot are supposed to be useless?

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Thanks for that intriuging spot of insight.

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Because you dont snipe under 60km.

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Such complaining that the Deimos does more damage with rails there is like complaining the eagle does more damage at 40km when its fitting rails than the deimos does with blasters at 40km.

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Oh, and its impossible to balance the ships in such a manner that they both remain decently usefull in both roles.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Tell me, what is the point of sniping in a Muninn if you are only equal to the competition and not better except at ranges which do not matter and when that competition also performs more roles farther out?

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Isnt this the exact problem with the Eos, Myrmidon, and a host of other ships considered overpowered? All the gain with no considerable drawbacks?

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Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Tell me, what is the point of sniping in a Muninn if you are only equal to the competition and not better except at ranges which do not matter and when that competition also performs more roles farther out?

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Because the Muninn is better than the 5-gun Eagle at all ranges where the Muninn can actually hit. Alpha strike is key, whether you accept that or not.

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Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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Originally by: Goumindong

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That isnt a nerf to damage 5/4 = 1.25. This means the Eagle gets its full damage before HAC 5. The missile launcher is immaterial, how are you going to hit anything with missiles at sniping range anyway? Drones are much more effective in that short range that the missile launcher are effective in.

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Missiles hit farther, and can't be destroyed. If you get called primary and have to warp, say goodbye to your drones. On the other hand, when you warp back in, your missiles are still there.

Your Eagle balancing is just pointless. You add a marginally useful drone bay, remove a missile slot, and add a worthless shield hp bonus. In the end, the only thing you've accomplished is adding a couple million isk to the price tag since you have to buy another 250mm II.

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The ferox outdamaging the vulture is just standard for all fleet commands except the Eos and claymore[which only matches damage when fitting missile launchers, which is uncommon]. That and 40% more damage for the vulture in the long range would utterly destroy any balance between it and the other anti-support ships.

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WRONG. Right now:

Claymore = Cyclone.

Eos > Brutix.

Vulture = Ferox.

Damnation is not comparable to the Prophecy.

Of the fleet commands, three of the four have the same weapon slots and damage bonuses, and one even gets a huge drone bay added. The Damnation is the only one that comes close to breaking the pattern, but only because it completely changes its weapons from lasers to missiles.

So like it or not, a Ferox boost means a Vulture boost. And I don't see what you're whining about, most of the time I wouldn't even use the full 7 guns. But it gives the OPTION to fit any number of gang mods, then fill the remaining high slots with useful weapons.

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Oh, and yea, the eos is broken.

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The Eos is not broken. The Eos is excellent in small gangs, but it has plenty of problems:

1) Short range = useless outside of small gangs.

2) Cap-heavy guns, cap-heavy mwd, cap-heavy tank = huge cap vulnerability. This on a ship that has to get within nos/neut range to fight effectively.

3) No spare high slots for gang mods. Fit gang mods, and your "broken" damage drops quickly.

4) Drone-based damage, with all the problems it causes.

5) Grid problems when trying to fit the largest guns to get that "broken" damage.

6) Poor gang mod bonus for its role. Skirmish or armored would be far better for small gangs, information is better for large fleets where the Eos is useless.

The Eos is good, but not broken.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 08/08/2007 02:27:50

Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Tell me, what is the point of sniping in a Muninn if you are only equal to the competition and not better except at ranges which do not matter and when that competition also performs more roles farther out?

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Because the Muninn is better than the 5-gun Eagle at all ranges where the Muninn can actually hit. Alpha strike is key, whether you accept that or not.

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No, its not better, its equal. The higher alpha strike compensates for the 25% more dps that 5 gun the eagle will be doing. It does not remove it.

ed: LOl@ the EOS not being overpowered, or how "its gang mods suck", or even that it "loses a lot of DPS without the guns". Holy hell the thing does more with drones than all the other three do with guns and drones, except the Claymore, since its the only one which can fit damage mods easily being a shield tank. And at that point, the EOS outtanks the **** out of it. And it still does this fantastic damage while fitting all its gang mods and a great tank.

Newsflash, the 15% gang mod bonus is pretty worthless.

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With gang mods it does 1 gun more DPS than a Vulture

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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You Caldari are funny. Earlier in this thread you ***** and whine about how uber the Deimos is because it has room for 5 Medium Drones.

Now you complain about a suggestion to give the Eagle a larger drone bay because drones don't work well.

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You Caldari complain that the split weapon system sucks because missiles are ****ty at range and then you whine when someone wants to give you a gun and take away a missile.

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Ferox + 1 turret fine.

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Eagle + 1 turret dunno. Probably only if Zealot gets another turret as well.

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Vulture has 1 less turret worth of DPS over the Eos assuming 3 gang mods.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, its not better, its equal. The higher alpha strike compensates for the 25% more dps that 5 gun the eagle will be doing. It does not remove it.

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ed: LOl@ the EOS not being overpowered, or how "its gang mods suck"

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even that it "loses a lot of DPS without the guns".

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Holy hell the thing does more with drones than all the other three do with guns and drones,

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And it still does this fantastic damage while fitting all its gang mods and a great tank.

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Newsflash, the 15% gang mod bonus is pretty worthless.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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With gang mods it does 1 gun more DPS than a Vulture.
Its drones are useless outside of 20km range. An Eos using heavy attack drones is a dead Eos in a gang.

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Sleipnir -vs- Eos my isk is on the Sleipnir if pilotted by a decent pilot.

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Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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:

1) It's being used as an excuse to support his nerfing/failing to fix the Eagle's sniper abilities.

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Mandatory if the Moa gets one. The transition from the Moa to Eagle makes no sense otherwise. Just think about it... unless you have HAC V, the Moa would be doing MORE damage. And even at HAC V, the Eagle would only match the Moa, not beat it, unlike every other HAC/cruiser pair.

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Depending on the exact situation, the alpha strike can not only compensate for the dps drop, but it can completely dominate the Eagle. If the Eagle takes 3 volleys to kill an inty (with the Muninn taking 2.. if it insta-pops, the kill speed is infinitely faster), the Muninn pulls even on damage over time. If the Eagle takes 4, the Muninn has almost twice the killing speed.

And that's exactly how it's supposed to work. Artillery ships have lower range and damage over time, but higher alpha strike.

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Newsflash: you're absolutely wrong. It's not the most powerful bonus ever, but it makes a noticeable difference and you're better off putting gang mods on the correct command ship

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Eos damage is far less stunning with gang mods, especially if you consider the fact that it can't do this damage outside point-blank range. Also, the full-gank setups that people complain about won't fit with gang mods and a heavy tank.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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1) It's being used as an excuse to support his nerfing/failing to fix the Eagle's sniper abilities.

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Remember what we talked about "end result" and no, an eagle would still do more damage due to ammo downsizing.

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Do you know what "rate of fire" is. The Muninn has nearly twice the rate of fire than the Muninn. A Muninn that killed something in 4 volleys to the Muninns 2 would only be 2 volleys behind. And such an occurance will be rare, especialy with the good damage types that the Eagle has.

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What you are ending up with is a small advantage in the first 10-20 seconds of a fight that would be completly removed by that time. They would be, in that range, about equal. One has a small advantage over the other in the begining.

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The average difference in the resitance granted by a max skilled damnation to the Eos against armor is about 1,9%. 1.9%. Its even less if they arent using gang links. The difference in cap? 3.375%. The difference in cycle time? 3.375%. The difference in total tankability increase? 5.7% 5.7% is gained for all the levels in CS that the damnation has

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People dont complain about the point blank setups. They complain that it gets so much DPS without sacrificing any tank like all the others have to do.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Fine, it uses sentry drones. And no, with gang mods, it does 1 GUN more damage than a vulture, and 200 more drone DPS, the equivelent of the entire high slot setup on the vulture.

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Originally by: Merin Ryskin

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Except that it has one less turret than appropriate for a gunboat HAC

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Range = damage is a SITUATIONAL rule. You will not always be using the ideal ammo, and you will not always be at a range where it matters. The other HACs get GENERAL damage bonuses that are useful everywhere.

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I already posted this in the other thread, but I can do it again. ROF on Eagle/Vulture = about 4 seconds.

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5.7% bonus to every ship in the fleet. Multiplied over a decent size gang, the bonus is significant.

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Glad you agree that the point-blank Eos isn't worth complaining about. And have you ever actually tried to fit one? Especially if you want any gang mods, you can't get that impressive dps without making huge sacrifices in tanking.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 08/08/2007 04:13:34

Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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With gang mods it does 1 gun more DPS than a Vulture.
Its drones are useless outside of 20km range. An Eos using heavy attack drones is a dead Eos in a gang.

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Fine, it uses sentry drones. And no, with gang mods, it does 1 GUN more damage than a vulture, and 200 more drone DPS, the equivelent of the entire high slot setup on the vulture.

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Sleipnir -vs- Eos my isk is on the Sleipnir if pilotted by a decent pilot.

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Congratulations your solo oriented speed based FIELD command ship can kill a Fleet command ship solo. What will they think of next, battleships that kill battlecruisers?

The myrmidon is clearly underpowerd, since i just saw one get totaly owned by a dominix!

ed: The other non-speed based command ships may not fare as well as the easy time the sliepnir has of course.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Quote:

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With gang mods it does 1 gun more DPS than a Vulture

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How are you guys figuring this about the eos? It has a damage bonus, and the drone bay for heavy drones....

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Split weapon systems aren't bad. They make a ship versitile. The down side is the ship isn't as good at any one thing.

People love the drone ships because of this versatility.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Split weapon systems aren't bad. They make a ship versitile. The down side is the ship isn't as good at any one thing.

People love the drone ships because of this versatility.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Split weapon systems aren't bad. They make a ship versitile. The down side is the ship isn't as good at any one thing.

People love the drone ships because of this versatility.

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Originally by: Phish1

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no other hac can hit as far as the eagle, this allows its use in sniper fleets etc as an anti-support vessel (im talking 160km+ here)

no other hac can (reasonably) hit out to that far for the same dmg (munnin is the only one that could, and then you are talking deep into falloff, whereas the eagle will still be into optimal)

5th turret would make it overpowered imo, max skills + 4 TEII + 250mm II = 214 optimal, my TEMPEST cant get that!

4 is fine... tho I do agree that one high should move to a mid

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Originally by: Nadec Ascand

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Take a crow as exemple, with resistance and dmg type of eagle or tron u need to make 2500dmg to kill it (not taking recharge rate in this)

2500dmg with an eagle getting 120dps and a ROF of 3,5 is 17,5sec so 5 volley
(dont tell us crappy double number u dont fire evry sec ROF IS 3,5 so stop doing stupid math)
My tron will kill that inty in 2 volley with a rof of 4, so 8sec...
Given im in a bs it gonna take me 1sec more to lock my target... so 9sec vs 17,5...

If Eagle is given a 5th turret it would take 14sec and 4 volley. That dont seems overpowered to me.

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Originally by: Djerin

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Originally by: Nadec Ascand

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Take a crow as exemple, with resistance and dmg type of eagle or tron u need to make 2500dmg to kill it (not taking recharge rate in this)

2500dmg with an eagle getting 120dps and a ROF of 3,5 is 17,5sec so 5 volley
(dont tell us crappy double number u dont fire evry sec ROF IS 3,5 so stop doing stupid math)
My tron will kill that inty in 2 volley with a rof of 4, so 8sec...
Given im in a bs it gonna take me 1sec more to lock my target... so 9sec vs 17,5...

If Eagle is given a 5th turret it would take 14sec and 4 volley. That dont seems overpowered to me.

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Funny, pretty mulch all your numbers are wrong.

First of all the Crow from your example has something like 1850 effective hitpoints (if spike s is used, which does 50/50 therm/kin).

Second of all the Eagles volley with spike s is 500+ damage. So it's not 5 but 4 volleys.

And last but not least 4 volleys is not 4x3.5s but 3x3.5s since the first volley has no delay.


Now you're saying a fifth turret would not render the Eagle overpowered. But to stay with your example the fifth turret would kill the Crow in 3 volleys which means 2x3.5s and therefor reduces the time to kill by 33%. If you turn it this way this would be an insane boost, dont you think? Dont blame me for that, you started this argument, i'm just correcting your numbers.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 10/08/2007 19:20:14
With faction ammo you can hit an angling interceptor[3000m/s transversal] down to about 50-60km well enough.

An inty that warps off is a useless interceptor.

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Originally by: darkmancer

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Edited by: darkmancer on 10/08/2007 21:06:19

Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 10/08/2007 19:20:14
With faction ammo you can hit an angling interceptor[3000m/s transversal] down to about 50-60km well enough.

An inty that warps off is a useless interceptor.

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Depends on angle and speed. An inty that warps off can warp back, you've not achieved much. If i wanted to disable him i'd be better in a rook, then i could shoot at gang mates while he's disabled.

50 km is really unlikely with the inty choosing a crappy angle, I've missed regular at 120km +/ 20 with t1. Plus at that range Other ships will really surpass the eagle in inty poping ability (sniper hurricane does well).

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Needs a 5th turret, no other changes. Whack it on the test server and we'll see just how "overpowered" it really is.

Fixed.

The blind bias in here is killing me, I'm out.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Needs a 5th turret, no other changes. Whack it on the test server and we'll see just how "overpowered" it really is.

Fixed.

The blind bias in here is killing me, I'm out.

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No need, we can just look at the tracking and damage numbers and see that yea, it would be. Unless you propose giving the Zealot and Muninn 6 turrets such that they can still have their area of power.[oh wait, that then overpowers them in the short range!]

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Needs a 5th turret, no other changes. Whack it on the test server and we'll see just how "overpowered" it really is.

Fixed.

The blind bias in here is killing me, I'm out.

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No need, we can just look at the tracking and damage numbers and see that yea, it would be. Unless you propose giving the Zealot and Muninn 6 turrets such that they can still have their area of power.[oh wait, that then overpowers them in the short range!]

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Well maybe give the Zealot a 5th turret before you hand out a 6th... The zealot and eagle both need a 5th turret.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 10/08/2007 23:46:07

Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Needs a 5th turret, no other changes. Whack it on the test server and we'll see just how "overpowered" it really is.

Fixed.

The blind bias in here is killing me, I'm out.

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No need, we can just look at the tracking and damage numbers and see that yea, it would be. Unless you propose giving the Zealot and Muninn 6 turrets such that they can still have their area of power.[oh wait, that then overpowers them in the short range!]

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Well maybe give the Zealot a 5th turret before you hand out a 6th... The zealot and eagle both need a 5th turret.

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Zealot yes, Ealge, no. In order to be balanced against a 5 turret damage bonused eagle in its primary sniping role, both the muninn and Zealot would need 6 turrets. This is because currently a 5 turret Zealot and 5 turret muninn are balanced against the 4 turret damage bonused eagle.

We know this be examining their tracking and DPS at various ranges with tech 1 ammo[the ammo necessary to hit interceptors that have even a decent transversal with], and operating under the assumption that the Muninn and Zealot ought to have advantages within their ranges and not simply be equal at those ranges.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Eh, the Zealot got a rof AND a damage bonus.

Edit: The muninn as well of course.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Yeah but you miss the point: all HACS need 5 turrets. The eagle will still hit as hard as a crippeled kitten with extrem low alpha (it will just step up from the dead kitten damage it does now) but just further than the other ones.

The zealot needs love as most amarr ships do.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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The 5 turret eagle will outdamge a muninn above 85-90 km. And you should keep in mind: the 5 turret muninn can still fit 2 missile launcher the eagle 1 (surprise). The Eagle is meant to outdamage everything outside ~100km. It has close to 0 point blank defense and is slow as a brick.

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A 5 turret eagle will outdamage a 5 turret zealot and Muninn down to 75km. The Muninn will have more alpha strike to compensate for this, but at best, they are equal, with no clear advantage to the Muninn.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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hey the muninn is good under 4OKM!

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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A 5 turret eagle will outdamage a 5 turret zealot and Muninn down to 75km. The Muninn will have more alpha strike to compensate for this, but at best, they are equal, with no clear advantage to the Muninn.

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Whats the problem with the eagle doing more damage at 75km exactly... it is supposed to be the king of range... I really don't think its a problem if a sniper muninn or zealot can only eagle eagle damage at 75km, those are not supposed to be their hardest hitting ranges, while 75 km is pretty darn close to the eagles hardest hitting range. Eagle imo, should be the best sniper in any decent long range. Especially considering it only has 4 turrets, and no drone bay.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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hey the muninn is good under 4OKM!

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40km is not anti-support sniping range. You cant hit anything important at that range that you couldnt also with a battleship. If you plan to be engaging at 40km or lower you should be in a short range ship.

Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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A 5 turret eagle will outdamage a 5 turret zealot and Muninn down to 75km. The Muninn will have more alpha strike to compensate for this, but at best, they are equal, with no clear advantage to the Muninn.

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Whats the problem with the eagle doing more damage at 75km exactly... it is supposed to be the king of range... I really don't think its a problem if a sniper muninn or zealot can only eagle eagle damage at 75km, those are not supposed to be their hardest hitting ranges, while 75 km is pretty darn close to the eagles hardest hitting range. Eagle imo, should be the best sniper in any decent long range. Especially considering it only has 4 turrets, and no drone bay.

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The problem is that it obsoletes the Zealot and the Muninn. Even if they are only equal at those ranges, the Eagle, with the ability to reach out even farther completely obsoletes them. Why would you take a Muninn to a fight if the Eagle were the equal of it for all ranges that matter while also being able to reach out farther if the fight necessitates it?

You wouldnt, and that is the problem.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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What does make you think the muninn or the zealot are meant to be anti support sniper? And even if they might take that role, why do you think they should be as good as an all out specialist like the eagle?

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10km medium beam Zealot! Medium range!

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Muninn are already awesome, and very versatile. You can fit them for very short range with pwnage damage, drones and some decent speed. Or you go for midrange (20-40km) with an awesome speed, very nice damage and some tank. What ship can fight you back at this range? Only non close combat ships (no autocannon or blaster will hit you at this ranges and the speed you can put on a muninn [tracking bonus, what could it be good for?]).

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You are just asking for ships with other roles to be as good as the specialist, who cant do anything else decently. Would you use a Cerberus or Eagle over a Vagabond as heavy tackler? Would you use a Raven to snipe in a fleet? No of course not, because they are better ships to do that, and frankly, for long range sniping the first choice should be the eagle, but atm, with its sad 4 turrets, it cant do anything.

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Originally by: Splendix

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This ship is supposed to be a damage dealer with long range. Its the Moa's T2 variant, but actually does less damage untill HAC5. And people have been complaining about the lack of the Moa's dps for quite some time.

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Judging by the description this ship should be: Built on the shoulders of the sturdy Moa and improving on its durability and range, the Eagle is the next generation in Caldari gunboats. Able to fire accurately and do tremendous damage at ranges considered extreme by any cruiser pilot .

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There are too many different things going on at the same time to get any further in this discussion. I suggest we keep it on the Eagle only and stop complaining about CS. Comparing an Eagle and Moa makes sense, but I don't care about the Zealot. First try to fix one thing, than look at the next. Otherwise you're comparing two broken ships to eachother which is never a smart thing to do.

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The problem is that it obsoletes the Zealot and the Muninn. Even if they are only equal at those ranges, the Eagle, with the ability to reach out even farther completely obsoletes them. Why would you take a Muninn to a fight if the Eagle were the equal of it for all ranges that matter while also being able to reach out farther if the fight necessitates it?

You wouldnt, and that is the problem.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Edited by: KD.Fluffy on 11/08/2007 19:43:42

Quote:

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The problem is that it obsoletes the Zealot and the Muninn. Even if they are only equal at those ranges, the Eagle, with the ability to reach out even farther completely obsoletes them. Why would you take a Muninn to a fight if the Eagle were the equal of it for all ranges that matter while also being able to reach out farther if the fight necessitates it?

You wouldnt, and that is the problem.

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Yeah, the muninn would heavily outdamage the moa at ranges inside 50km.. The eagle would NOT be equal at all ranges, eagle would only be better at any sniping range. God forbid caldari have a ship thats best at something. If muninn is meant to be a sniper and operate at ranges where the eagle should be doing more damage, why does it have a drone bay? It has no need for a drone bay.. right? So your telling me the 'sniper' muninn is meant to be better then the eagle at ranges up to 100km, and get a drone bay while eagle gets none? sorry your wrong. A 5th turret eagle would make the eagle the best sniper. Thats exactly what its supposed to be too, the best sniper. Muninn would pwn it inside 50km, so would the zealot. Both ships are much faster too, so to me that suggests mid range, not sniping range.

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Look, the Eagle is already the best sniper. Its already better than the Muninn and the Zealot. It is not that it should not be the best, but that it should not be so strong as to obsolete the Zealot and Muninn in their sniping roles. Why bring a muninn when the Eagle has 100km more range and is just as good as the Muninn is when opearting at its effective range?

That is what you are asking, not that the eagle be the best sniper, but that it be the only sniper. Look at the Rokh. Now imagine that tech 2 ammo wasnt usefull for battleship snipers. Compare the Rokhs damage to the Hyperions damage. The Rokh just cleans it out at all ranges that matter. That is what its would be like with a 5 turret eagle that still had its damage bonus.

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Why bring a muninn when the Eagle has 100km more range and is just as good as the Muninn is when opearting at its effective range?

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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5 Turret Eagle:

5x 250 II, no damage mods, loading Javelin: 195 DPS, 19km Optimal

Current Muninn:

5x 720 II, no damage mods, loading Quake: 231 DPS, 11km optimal

Current Zealot:

4 x Heavy Beam II, no damage mods, loading Gleam: 240 DPS, 11km optimal

( HAC 5, all support 5, spec skills at 4 )


So you know what?

With 5 turrets an Eagle gives up about 25% DPS to the Zealot, with about 80% extra range.

So is that balance?

And im not being obtuse, im really not sure if 25% DPS for 80% range is fair balance.

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What? No. The Moa has 4 turrets and no damage bonus. The eagle has 4 and one damage bonus and a second range bonus. The eagle absolutly trounces the moas damage at all damage.

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Look at the damage it does. Yes, it does tremendous damage at extreme ranges. But if we do that, look at the descriptions of the other ships. The Zealot should, by all accounts be doing as much damage as a main battleship. The Abaddon would have zero cap issues[and also be invincible]

I mean this is the Zealot description "As a vanguard vessel, its thick armor and dazzling destructive power make it capable of cutting through enemy fleets with striking ease."

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But the muninn is not broken, so what is the problem with comparing the eagle to it?

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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Is 25% less DPS balanced by about 80% greater range?

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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You've lost all credit... Hyperion outdamages the rokh at every sniping range that matters.....! Seriously, take a look at the damage curves. IF there was no t2 ammo this would not be true

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Becuase muninn can effectily get in closer ranges, and do a TON more damage and have the speed to kite many things. Eagle can't do that. Sniping is a secondary bonus to the muninn, just like blasters are a secondary role an eagle can fill. So maybe eagle needs to be AS good of a blaster boat as a deimos by your ideas of 'balance' no?

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Originally by: bldyannoyed

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5 Turret Eagle:

5x 250 II, no damage mods, loading Javelin: 195 DPS, 19km Optimal

Current Muninn:

5x 720 II, no damage mods, loading Quake: 231 DPS, 11km optimal

Current Zealot:

4 x Heavy Beam II, no damage mods, loading Gleam: 240 DPS, 11km optimal

( HAC 5, all support 5, spec skills at 4 )


So you know what?

With 5 turrets an Eagle gives up about 25% DPS to the Zealot, with about 80% extra range.

So is that balance?

And im not being obtuse, im really not sure if 25% DPS for 80% range is fair balance.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Uh yea, take a look at the damage curves. Hyperion hits with Antimatter to 49km[48 dmg]. With the next ammo to 61.5km[44 dmg], and the next ammo[40 dmg]to 74km.

The Rokh hits with Antimatter to 75km. Antimatter does 20% more damage than the 75% range ammo. A soon as the Hyperion hits 80 or so km[and has to range up his ammo], the Rokh outdamages it. The Rokh outdamages all other tech 1 snipers in the game. There is a reason its considered the only worthwhile t1 sniper. The Rokh outdamages the Megathron over 65km.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You dont kite things at medium range, you cant scram that far. You kite things in small gangs and small gangs cant afford to lose scrams. At medium range if you want to bring cruiser sized weaponry you will bring a hurricane, 20% more damage and alpha, with about 2-3 times the hit points.

Range bonuses work in the absolute, not in the percentages. A range bonus to blasters is nearly worthless. Similarly a range bonus when using short range ammo is less usefull. Medium range setups do not benefit from this range bonus as much as other ranges do, this is why the Muninn and Zealot are not good medium range ships. You would simply use a Hurricane or Harbinger.

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Uh yea, take a look at the damage curves. Hyperion hits with Antimatter to 49km[48 dmg]. With the next ammo to 61.5km[44 dmg], and the next ammo[40 dmg]to 74km.

The Rokh hits with Antimatter to 75km. Antimatter does 20% more damage than the 75% range ammo. A soon as the Hyperion hits 80 or so km[and has to range up his ammo], the Rokh outdamages it. The Rokh outdamages all other tech 1 snipers in the game. There is a reason its considered the only worthwhile t1 sniper. The Rokh outdamages the Megathron over 65km.

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You dont kite things at medium range, you cant scram that far. You kite things in small gangs and small gangs cant afford to lose scrams. At medium range if you want to bring cruiser sized weaponry you will bring a hurricane, 20% more damage and alpha, with about 2-3 times the hit points.

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A 5 turret eagle will do 25% more damage than a 5 turret Zealot at 100km. It will do 25% more damage than a Muninn at 100km. This completly obsoletes the Zealot and the Zealot in their roles as they are only effective within a small window above about 50km.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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A 5 turret eagle will do 25% more damage than a 5 turret Zealot at 100km. It will do 25% more damage than a Muninn at 100km. This completly obsoletes the Zealot and the Zealot in their roles as they are only effective within a small window above about 50km.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Notice how I said meaningful sniping ranges? who the hell calls an anti matter rail hyperion sniping? Look at the damage of the two at 190km, the distance that most fleet snipers aim for. If the range cap was lifted, the rokh would be awesome, but its simply outdone by other snipers atm.

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Obvouisly, you have no idea about minmatar tactics. Thats exactly what minmatar ships do. And we all know that the tier 2 battlecruisers out class the hacs in many situations, thats a completetly different discussion.

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The muninn's primary role is NOT a sniper. SImple proof: Its drone bay. If you want the muninn to be as good at a secondary role it can fill, a sniper, as the eagle, then by your logic, the eagle should be as good at its secondary role of a blaster ship as the deimos. And frankly, its just not. So how do you suggest making the eagle as good a blaster boat as the diemos, im all ears?

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Originally by: trouser boy

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Part of the problem is the hitpoint buff. Beyond tech I frigates, destroyers and people not flying interceptors properly the Eagle doesn't really stand out from the crowd any longer. While the Muninn still has that initial alpha strike to make small ships and even assault frigates pay, the damage from an Eagle isn't significant enough to be enough of threat any longer. The Eagle is no longer a deadly threat to tech II ships beyond Interdictors.

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The Eagle was hit harder by the hitpoint buff than any other tech II cruiser. Effectively the alpha strike got a stealth buff with the hitpoint buff (in comparison to high dps atleast). DPS at range means less now because the target has a significantly longer time buffer to improvise.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 11/08/2007 23:51:34

Originally by: Goumindong

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A 5 turret eagle will do 25% more damage than a 5 turret Zealot at 100km. It will do 25% more damage than a Muninn at 100km. This completly obsoletes the Zealot and the Zealot in their roles as they are only effective within a small window above about 50km.

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Oh... it would deal 25% more damage at 100km.. well that sound like the way it should be, since the muninn and the 5 turret zealot will do more than 50% more damage at 20km.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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And who in the whole EVE world use T1 sniper ships? Maybe Goons, but thats it.. dont pull up such stuf like, if we all would use only T1 ships, the Rokh would be fine...

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Not kiting in med range? Why not? keep somebody at 25-30 km and give him hell with EMP ammo and a huge bbq damage. And dont bring up this "well then i would use a tier 2 BC...", everybody knows they make the HACs look sad.

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My god you are dense. The point is to illustrate the effectiveness of the eagle. They must use tech 1 ammo since they cant hit things with tech 2 ammo. A Rokh outdamages the Rokh at all meaningful sniper ranges. It only gets BETTER for the rokh as ranges increase when using tech 1 ammo.

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You obviously dont know what medium range means. And the Muninn blows at kiting ships. Why not just fly a vagabond, more speed more med/low slots and a falloff bonus. The muninn sucks **** at that role. You dont kite with arties when you have a falloff boosed autocannon counterpart. Not that you would want to kite with arties anyway, not unless you had a nice web range bonus and a bunch of mids.

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Not that you would want to kite with arties anyway, not unless you had a nice web range bonus and a bunch of mids.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Why would you want to web something in a muninn? It can go 2.5km/s without gang bonus with not much problems if you fit it to stay at 30km. Which ship besides a Vaga or Interceptor will catch it?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Why would you want to web something in a muninn? It can go 2.5km/s without gang bonus with not much problems if you fit it to stay at 30km. Which ship besides a Vaga or Interceptor will catch it?

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A rifter.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Well when you tell me a rokh outdamage a hyperion with antimatter as a sniper, im gonan laugh at you becuase antimatter is not sniping.

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You take said muninn. You load high damage ammo. You take a huginn, you web. Wow, damage ammo optimal lines up with the hugins web range... imagine that? Now you release muninns drones, and... holy cow, your dps puts a 5 turret eagle to absolute shame... thats how muninn works, fitting it up with tracking enhancers and all the crap is only a second bonus it gets.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Why would you want to web something in a muninn? It can go 2.5km/s without gang bonus with not much problems if you fit it to stay at 30km. Which ship besides a Vaga or Interceptor will catch it?

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A rifter.

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And how long wit it take the rifter to make 30km against a speed of 2.5km/s? And how long will it survive against the Muninn (not that it will have problems with 5 light drones after it really made it to catch up...)?

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the Rokh outdamages the hyperion at every range over that range when using tech 1 ammo.

How hard is this to understand?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 12/08/2007 01:34:01

Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Why would you want to web something in a muninn? It can go 2.5km/s without gang bonus with not much problems if you fit it to stay at 30km. Which ship besides a Vaga or Interceptor will catch it?

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A rifter.

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And how long wit it take the rifter to make 30km against a speed of 2.5km/s? And how long will it survive against the Muninn (not that it will have problems with 5 light drones after it really made it to catch up...)?

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Not very long.

The muninn is not a solo ship. And there are much better mid range options.


ed: Also a muninn with all skills to 5 and a tech 2 MWD hits 1850m/s, not 2500.

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Quote:

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the Rokh outdamages the hyperion at every range over that range when using tech 1 ammo.

How hard is this to understand?

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and how hard to unerstand that a sniper battlesihp neccesitates t2 ammo? lmao. Hyperion outdamages rokh in every sniping range that matters. So does the megathron, and its cheaper. How hard is it to understand that?

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Put 1 mass rig and 1 overdrive... BEHOLD!

Add: even if you take a rifter going 5km/sec, that will give him a 2.5km/s realtive to you, how many volley can he take?

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Not very, as i have said many times, i was using this as an example of the power of the range bonus when using tech 1 ammo.

The snipers we are discussing use tech 1 ammo. They use tech 1 ammo because they cant hit the desired targets with tech 2 ammo. It doesnt track well enough. An Eagle will do over twice the DPS of a muninn at the Muninns optimal range if the Muninn is using tech 2 ammo due to tracking.

If you are shooting at cruiser sized targets then the tech 1 fitted battleships you so malign will do about twice the DPS with commensurate alpha increase than the tech 2 fitted HAC snipers.

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2 slot tank + kinetic rig, i got 84.6/75.4/72.7/75.4 on shield with a med booster.. with its speed and range, it should do very nice.

I will do some number crunshing now to if t2 long range ammo will have any tracking issues .

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Its a bad example... sure rokh does more damage at 60km then hyperion. Has nothing to do with an eagle needing a 5th turret slot. So far you've managed to ignore anything of importance, and the smiple fact is the eagle needs another turret slot to make it balanced. Please stop trolling and derailing the thread with useless posts now, k thx.

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It will have tracking issues if the target is moving with a pretty decent transversal., no big deal though, will hit a lot of stuff just fine.

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Ok i hope my math still works:

I took a 250mm rail on an eagle with t1 ammo, tracking 0.02875 rad.

This should be bring us to 1.637¦/s.

At a distance of 100km this will lead to a tracking of pretty precise 17km/s with t1 ammo, so you can track 4.25km/s transversal with spike, maxed skill and without any tracking mods.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Ok i hope my math still works:

I took a 250mm rail on an eagle with t1 ammo, tracking 0.02875 rad.

This should be bring us to 1.637¦/s.

At a distance of 100km this will lead to a tracking of pretty precise 17km/s with t1 ammo, so you can track 4.25km/s transversal with spike, maxed skill and without any tracking mods.

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Your math skills dont work.

First off an eagle with tech 1 amm will track .0511 rads or so.

At 100km you will hit an inty 80% of the time if its traveling 4000m/s.

With 1/4 that[tech 2 ammo] you will hit 7% of the time.

2000m/s transversal you are at 97% for the tech 1 and 50% for the tech 2.

The eagle is the only one with the range to hit decently with tech 2 ammo[about 80% at 200km]

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 12/08/2007 03:11:07

Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Benn Helmsman

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Ok i hope my math still works:

I took a 250mm rail on an eagle with t1 ammo, tracking 0.02875 rad.

This should be bring us to 1.637¦/s.

At a distance of 100km this will lead to a tracking of pretty precise 17km/s with t1 ammo, so you can track 4.25km/s transversal with spike, maxed skill and without any tracking mods.

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Your math skills dont work.

First off an eagle with tech 1 amm will track .0511 rads or so.

At 100km you will hit an inty 80% of the time if its traveling 4000m/s.

With 1/4 that[tech 2 ammo] you will hit 7% of the time.

2000m/s transversal you are at 97% for the tech 1 and 50% for the tech 2.

The eagle is the only one with the range to hit decently with tech 2 ammo[about 80% at 200km]

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How do you get 0.0511 rad from an eagle? T2 250mm rails have 0.023 rad base..

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