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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 102 post(s) |
SHC Derek
We Know Derek
Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:30:00 -
[91]
[23:28] (HippoKing): UNBAN ME NOW, OK
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ForumPosterAlt
HERRO KITTY
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:33:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: SHC Derek
[23:28] (HippoKing): UNBAN ME NOW, OK
lol hippo being a well known member from the forums definitely ripping his hair out now if he really is banned 
Because posting on the forums is serious business. |
Onchas Erivvia
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:34:00 -
[93]
I had a terrible time dealing with some of the forum moderators. As a moderator on another game system who's been at it longer than Eve's been in business, and who wrote many of the forum rules and helped establish many of the forum moderating policies, it was clear that there were fundamental failures in your system, both in its basic set of policies and its execution.
Forum moderating is a hard thing to do, and it's impact on gaming communities and the development process are vastly under-estimated by even the majority of the development team at most publishers.
Moderating teams (and game managers) need to be part of a culture of accountability that can only come internally. There needs to regularly be an effort within the team to question and challenge decisions made by other moderators. Rules need to be written in such a way that they clearly outline the rule, the premise behind its inclusion, and as rule interpretations shift over time, those need to be incorporated. When community members say, "why did I get a warning?" to say, "well because you violated rule #x". That was the most common response issued by this moderating team. Sorry folks, that's obvious the moment warnings show up, and just not good enough to respond to a customers complaint or concern.
It's clear that this team was afraid to be held accountable for their actions, when a willingness to be held accountable and to justify your decision making process must exist with every decision you make. Through this sort of accountability, plainly transparent to other members of the team, it is far easier to arrive at a common accepted standard that all members of the moderating team can then apply to their moderating. This makes precedents clear. I assume a forum existed for moderators to communicate with one another to seek advise before handling questionable or borderline examples, but those forums must be used and used effectively, and part of a broader accountability effort.
The policy of allowing player-volunteer moderators to be anonymous to the game community MUST come with a tremendous level of oversight. It's too hard for moderators when they're anonymous to bring to the forums the necessary level of objectivity.
Rules need to be written clearly and concisely. National differences in humour and modes of dialogue must be respected and tolerated. And most importantly, they need to be applied evenly and equally. Even though it's impossible for a cost-appropriate moderator team to catch every single rule violation, having consistent standards that are arrived at by group consensus rather than decree ensure that customers know what to expect when they log on.
There also clearly a life-cycle to moderators that must be understood and adjusted for to make sure you understand the typical psychological experiences moderators experience from their initial trepidation, to the almost universal over-reaction, to their complete hate and loathing of forum goers, the numb and automated moderating that follows, and finally the here-but-not-here status that most moderators end up in as their life situation shifts that they can't offer substantial hours to forum moderating.
It's not clear to me that CCP has developed sufficient internal capability or knowledge to handle the sorts of forums they've produced here. If they have, it's hard to explain why your forums were allowed to breakdown in such a fundamental way. Was it a failure in oversight? Flawed recruitment techniques? Ineffectual training? I have a feeling that your hierarchical structure didn't help, because it locked in certain staff members who were allowed to underachieve their way to the top rather than identifying key moderators who were effective and good leaders and putting them into positions of influence; a good way of pushing out people who are both effective and are looking to change an under performing organization.
Anyways, I really do hope CCP gets it right next time! Good luck. You need it!
------------------------------------------
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"
'Teh Onchinator' |
NovaPod
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:35:00 -
[94]
Well there are alot of words but hardly any info in this nor does it seems to come from the heart. The community grew is the reason for getting rid of most of the volunteers? Eventually forum moderation will be done by a ¦community team¦..eventually? Is there no plan? And that for people who volunteered and got also lured by very promising advertisement to be a part of a team working for this game any maybe even going further than volunteer are being thrown out? Hmmz to show apreciation to people who did volunteer work there should be some truthfull words regarding the ending at least and not this.
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Shevar
Minmatar
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:37:00 -
[95]
Quote:
W recognizing the overall goal is to support our players in the best manner possible.
By closing the sell forums so paid moderators have less work
Anyways thanks for the hours of volunteering (most :>) members of ISD.
---
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:37:00 -
[96]
Originally by: ForumPosterAlt
Originally by: Chribba
As for the moderator team, I really really hope this isn't the beginning of a forumless EVE-Online, nor a change to deploy the "ingameboard.asp" to its full name. The forums are a big part of EVE and that is amongst the last things I would want to see gone.
And this.
Very much this. Seeing as I spend more time on these OOG forums than I do actually playing, losing the forums would actually make me consider cancelling my account. Not because of megadrama, but just because I consider EVE-O value for money, even when I'm not actually in the mood to play (which, according to the Devs, is about every 7 months for most people). Not sure I could justify paying for the bits when I'm not playing, if I didn't have these forums for whoring. 
Is it a sign of how devastating a concept that'd be to me that it didn't even occur to me when reading the blog / thread? 
--------
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Wachtmeister
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:39:00 -
[97]
Mit groŻem Bedauern schreibe ich hiermit meine wom÷glich letzten Worte als ein Mitglied des ISD/CRC Corps. Es war eine Ehre fnr diesen Verein arbeiten zu dnrfen und in den wenigen Wochen in denen ich auf das Forum losgelassen wurde und in denen ich die Mitglieder dieses gar vortrefflichen Teams kennen lernen durfte, habe ich eine Menge Sachen gelernt und werde sie umso mehr auch in Erinnerung behalten.
Ich bedanke mich vor allem bei CCP und all den Menschen, die mir in den Wochen geholfen haben (CRC bewusst und die ganzen Forum-_beltSter unbewusst :) ) um auch mir selbst ein neues Ich im RL zu finden.
Vielen Dank an alle... und... thanks for all the fish. :)
(Just so no one mods me.. haha.... I just thanked everyone for the experience I was able to gain from this and how I loved to be a member of a team of extra-ordinary people. Although I have only been a member for a few weeks, some of you have given me a damn lot of good laughs on IRC and the forums and the experience of having been a CRC member is something that no one is going to take away again.
To the other moderators. I love you.
To the forum users... I love you.
And to the rest... Ich liebe euch alle. :)
So far... The bodyless Mod.
Wachtmeister
Contrary to popular belief he actually has a body -Eldo
My body is well trained and I have a sixpack.... in the fridge. -Wachty
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Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:40:00 -
[98]
Originally by: SHC Derek
[23:28] (HippoKing): UNBAN ME NOW, OK
I Miss Hippo. I will come to SHC just for that.
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SEP Thalack
Minmatar
ISD AURORA
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:42:00 -
[99]
It's been a year, maybe a bit more, one's mind stops functioning properly after too much bree.
It's been a year of joy, lots of fun events, and even more fun reactions from the players..
I want to thank the community, and the rest of ISD for making eve as great as it is now, and especially to Galen and Nebulai for bringing Aurora to be (bit biased in this oppinion but many will agree) the best community enhancement any game ever had to offer.
I salute thee.
Thalack Qu'ellar
A lone wolf of Pator.
__________________________________________
Thalack Qu'ellar
Senior Event Producer
ISD:Aurora |
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Takahashi Arran
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:44:00 -
[100]
Its disheartening how even in being fired the moderators are allowed to post nothing but thanks for the great times rather then having opinions themselves about whether this is a good idea or not. (well atleast on these forums. several have made their views very clear elsewhere)
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ForumPosterAlt
HERRO KITTY
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:46:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Onchas Erivvia
I had a terrible time dealing with some of the forum moderators. As a moderator on another game system who's been at it longer than Eve's been in business, and who wrote many of the forum rules and helped establish many of the forum moderating policies, it was clear that there were fundamental failures in your system, both in its basic set of policies and its execution.
... (ran out of characters, but lots more words go here)
Anyways, I really do hope CCP gets it right next time! Good luck. You need it!
 I see you haven't put much thought into this subject.
Because posting on the forums is serious business. |
GO MaZ
Spartan Industries
|
Posted - 2007.08.21 22:46:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Onchas Erivvia
I had a terrible time dealing with some of the forum moderators. As a moderator on another game system who's been at it longer than Eve's been in business, and who wrote many of the forum rules and helped establish many of the forum moderating policies, it was clear that there were fundamental failures in your system, both in its basic set of policies and its execution.
Forum moderating is a hard thing to do, and it's impact on gaming communities and the development process are vastly under-estimated by even the majority of the development team at most publishers.
Moderating teams (and game managers) need to be part of a culture of accountability that can only come internally. There needs to regularly be an effort within the team to question and challenge decisions made by other moderators. Rules need to be written in such a way that they clearly outline the rule, the premise behind its inclusion, and as rule interpretations shift over time, those need to be incorporated. When community members say, "why did I get a warning?" to say, "well because you violated rule #x". That was the most common response issued by this moderating team. Sorry folks, that's obvious the moment warnings show up, and just not good enough to respond to a customers complaint or concern.
It's clear that this team was afraid to be held accountable for their actions, when a willingness to be held accountable and to justify your decision making process must exist with every decision you make. Through this sort of accountability, plainly transparent to other members of the team, it is far easier to arrive at a common accepted standard that all members of the moderating team can then apply to their moderating. This makes precedents clear. I assume a forum existed for moderators to communicate with one another to seek advise before handling questionable or borderline examples, but those forums must be used and used effectively, and part of a broader accountability effort.
The policy of allowing player-volunteer moderators to be anonymous to the game community MUST come with a tremendous level of oversight. It's too hard for moderators when they're anonymous to bring to the forums the necessary level of objectivity.
Rules need to be written clearly and concisely. National differences in humour and modes of dialogue must be respected and tolerated. And most importantly, they need to be applied evenly and equally. Even though it's impossible for a cost-appropriate moderator team to catch every single rule violation, having consistent standards that are arrived at by group consensus rather than decree ensure that customers know what to expect when they log on.
There also clearly a life-cycle to moderators that must be understood and adjusted for to make sure you understand the typical psychological experiences moderators experience from their initial trepidation, to the almost universal over-reaction, to their complete hate and loathing of forum goers, the numb and automated moderating that follows, and finally the here-but-not-here status that most moderators end up in as their life situation shifts that they can't offer substantial hours to forum moderating.
It's not clear to me that CCP has developed sufficient internal capability or knowledge to handle the sorts of forums they've produced here. If they have, it's hard to explain why your forums were allowed to breakdown in such a fundamental way. Was it a failure in oversight? Flawed recruitment techniques? Ineffectual training? I have a feeling that your hierarchical structure didn't help, because it locked in certain staff members who were allowed to underachieve their way to the top rather than identifying key moderators who were effective and good leaders and putting them into positions of influence; a good way of pushing out people who are both effective and are looking to change an under performing organization.
Anyways, I really do hope CCP gets it right next time! Good luck. You need it!
You have nothing on James 315 when it comes to posting pages and pages of drivel.
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mazzilliu
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:52:00 -
[103]
Originally by: GO MaZ
::words i didnt read::
best name ever. i want to buy your character and make it follow mine around in a badger
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ForumPosterAlt
HERRO KITTY
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:54:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Takahashi Arran
Its disheartening how even in being fired the moderators are allowed to post nothing but thanks for the great times rather then having opinions themselves about whether this is a good idea or not. (well atleast on these forums. several have made their views very clear elsewhere)
You lose the ability to have a public opinion when you're in the game business.
If any of them are interested in getting another volunteer position, there is no choice but to show nothing but gratitude and grace, probably.
Imo many gamers NOT in the game industry have more influence over the direction of a game than some of the people building them, probably.
If an aspect of a game is flawed, unnecessary, or just fking sucks, gamers can say "hey, this fking sucks", while those working on the game can't, not to the people that get to make those decisions anyways, probably.
Because posting on the forums is serious business. |
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GM Zhainius
Game Masters
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:54:00 -
[105]
Having worked both alongside the volunteer teams, and with them, I can say it has been an honor working with you.
I will buy you guys a beer at fanfest if you'll be there!
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Skellibjalla
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:55:00 -
[106]
Salute! Safe docking at the nearest station!
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Tsuki Kiyuu
Caldari
ISD Interstellar Correspondents
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Posted - 2007.08.21 22:59:00 -
[107]
Much love to Aurora and CRC for all the great work they've done over the years.
It's been a real pleasure working with you guys, and one I hope continues in some way or another for many years to come.
To Aurora in particular I just wanted to say:
All those events, all those stories you've created...they'll live on in the minds of the players and their characters, being recalled fondly and being used to build upon and influence their characters.
Don't think you have been killed.
What you guys have created will live on until the day the servers close and even longer.
All that hard work you put in to making great stories...these things simply don't vanish overnight. Remember that. In what you've created, there truly is something to be proud of, and something that will last.
The Aurora legacy will not be forgotten. |
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Popsikle
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:01:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Popsikle on 21/08/2007 23:01:34
Originally by: Onchas Erivvia
I had a terrible time dealing with some of the forum moderators. As a moderator on another game system who's been at it longer than Eve's been in business, and who wrote many of the forum rules and helped establish many of the forum moderating policies, it was clear that there were fundamental failures in your system, both in its basic set of policies and its execution.
...
Anyways, I really do hope CCP gets it right next time! Good luck. You need it!
Im goin to be that guy, that calls you out, and say bull**** to your whole post. Stop comparing eve to other games, there is no game that is like another, and there is no moderation rules and methods that works for all communities. On top of all that, you just seem like your making stuff up, and comparing apples to oranges.
____
<t20> i want to be in a manager potition at Hooters
<SaraDawn> Garthagk, do you have it up ?
<Garthagk> I can get it up anytime. |
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SEP LTJohonson
Amarr
ISD AURORA
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:04:00 -
[109]
A few small things i forgot to say in my Original Post -
Firstly, thanks to all ISD that i have met up with, and been associated with for the last 1 1/2 years. You have all been great :) I hope you all achieve what your aiming for, and im sure those who this is aimed at know what i mean ;)
Secondly, a few personal mentions to corps i worked with... Firstly, PIE. Inc, Mordus Angels, and no doubt a few Pirates.... You guys were great when taking part in my events, even if you didnt know about it ;)
And Lastly, Aurora itself. Never have i met such a team that is both mad, yet brilliant. Joining this wonderful programme is deffo one of the better choices i made over the last year and a half, and given the chance, i would do it all over again.
Farewell Friends, im sure i will see you around somewhere in the universe.... ;)
Long Live the Legion...i mean, Memories!!!
----------
SEP LTJohonson
T3 Event Producer
ISD Aurora Division |
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SEP Baramos
Minmatar
ISD AURORA
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:06:00 -
[110]
There's much I could say right now. I have been with AURORA for over a year and a half. In that time I was able to take part in something larger and better than I ever imagined. Some of my favorite moments were seeing the reaction of players after an event, as well at meeting players in real life at Gencon Indy 06/07 and GDC. I've never worked with such a talented group of people before, and I am sad that it has come to an end. Everyone in AURORA and ISD in general have been terrific to work with, and I'd especially like to thank Tanis and Gabriel for helping me when I was a new recruit, Galen and Nebulai for accepting me into the program in the first place, and you the players for allowing my work to be a part of your experience in EVE. I hope that it has been as fulfilling for you as it has been for me.
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IlluminatedOne
Amarr
Tycho Brahe Fan Club
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:09:00 -
[111]
I must say "thank you much" for all ISD people at in-game Help channel. Thanks for all your detailed answers on my (sometimes annoying) questions!
Fly safe...
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:17:00 -
[112]
/me bows respectfully.
Thank you all for the fine work you've done.
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SEP Kerren
Amarr
ISD AURORA
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:19:00 -
[113]
Edited by: SEP Kerren on 21/08/2007 23:20:55
Originally by: SEP LTJohonson
A few small things i forgot to say in my Original Post -
Firstly, thanks to all ISD that i have met up with, and been associated with for the last 1 1/2 years. You have all been great :) I hope you all achieve what your aiming for, and im sure those who this is aimed at know what i mean ;)
Secondly, a few personal mentions to corps i worked with... Firstly, PIE. Inc, Mordus Angels, and no doubt a few Pirates.... You guys were great when taking part in my events, even if you didnt know about it ;)And Lastly, Aurora itself. Never have i met such a team that is both mad, yet brilliant. Joining this wonderful programme is deffo one of the better choices i made over the last year and a half, and given the chance, i would do it all over again.
Farewell Friends, im sure i will see you around somewhere in the universe.... ;)
Long Live the Legion...i mean, Memories!!!
The Legion, pfft what a bunch of pansy boys, all glory to the Nation 
As my esteemed colleague stated, major props to the player community, without you our work would have been impossible.
ISD - AURORA |
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Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:26:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Valorem
Originally by: Luigi Thirty
Countdown to massive ISK seller invasion and/or Asian buyout of CCP.
Don't bet on it.
Some of us are here for the time being to ensure that the forums stay clean and friendly 
Which forums? We've already lost Buy/Sell/Trade. That was probably the most trafficked part. Other than the clownshow that is CAOD there's hardly anything left that requires moderating or is even worth visiting...  |
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SEP CKang
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:27:00 -
[115]
Well, I am pretty disappointed that AURORA is being shut down as an event-running entity. For those wondering about current arcs, the people running them are being offered the chance to continue them and tie up the loose ends. So don't worry about that too much.
We ran events because we really loved adding to the fiction in EVE. From something as small as having the Amarr Navy interacting with smut peddlers in Amarr to having something 100+ CVA/PIE/VV/AM/other Amarr loyalists escorting my pompous Amarr Holders from low sec to high sec when I had no intention of having anyone attack them (PS... YOU GUYS HELPED THE EVIL[er] HOLDER WIN!) to watching a station constantly respawn after being blown up and lucky getting the Caldari Navy to chase you guys off before it respawned YET AGAIN. It was all fun and I will truly miss adding that sort of depth and immersion to the game.
Hopefully, in the future, we'll be able to bring you these sorts of events again. Your kind words are greatly appreciated, none-the-less.
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EP Kharnubis
Minmatar
ISD AURORA
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:31:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Tharrn
Oh crap. Aurora events were, in contrast to CCP events, usually fun. The 'events' and arcs devised by the Devs always looked like cruel jokes to tell the RPers 'you are nerds, we hate you'.
*sobs*
*hugs Tharrn*
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Wachtmeister
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:36:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Nadarius Chrome
Originally by: Valorem
Originally by: Luigi Thirty
Countdown to massive ISK seller invasion and/or Asian buyout of CCP.
Don't bet on it.
Some of us are here for the time being to ensure that the forums stay clean and friendly
Which forums? We've already lost Buy/Sell/Trade. That was probably the most trafficked part. Other than the clownshow that is CAOD there's hardly anything left that requires moderating or is even worth visiting...
Oh you don't wanna know what my young eyes sometimes have seen in General Discussion or Out of Pod Discussion.... I am spoiled for ages.. sexually, mentally and in all other ways possible.. ;)
Contrary to popular belief he actually has a body -Eldo
My body is well trained and I have a sixpack.... in the fridge. -Wachty
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Grismar
Gallente
The Establishment
Establishment
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:41:00 -
[118]
With or without formal ISD organization, you can rest assured many players (whether they're currently in ISD or not) will continue their volunteer work for the community :)
Forum moderation is another thing ofcourse, here's to hoping CCP gets something of similar quality in place without serious hickups.
Greetings,
Grismar.
Your EVE IGB home: EVE Wiki, Explorer, Navigator |
Onchas Erivvia
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:50:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Onchas Erivvia
I had a terrible time dealing with some of the forum moderators. As a moderator on another game system who's been at it longer than Eve's been in business, and who wrote many of the forum rules and helped establish many of the forum moderating policies, it was clear that there were fundamental failures in your system, both in its basic set of policies and its execution.
...
Anyways, I really do hope CCP gets it right next time! Good luck. You need it!
Im goin to be that guy, that calls you out, and say bull**** to your whole post. Stop comparing eve to other games, there is no game that is like another, and there is no moderation rules and methods that works for all communities. On top of all that, you just seem like your making stuff up, and comparing apples to oranges.
There are other 24/7, persistent PvP games out on the market. Eve is, in many ways, just another skill template game. That doesn't make it WoW. But too many people fall for this, "Eve is pure PvP unlike anything else evah!" It's actually still kinda PvP-lite, but it's at least requires extensive knowledge of game mechanics and the equipment to be effective. The consequence is many people still confuse their templates for themselves, a phenomenon common in games like WoW and SWG that are "PvP", but with little actual game skill required. There are several 24/7, persistent simulators that are out there that require tremendous amounts of knowledge about tactics, equipment performance capabilities, and there ain't no skill templates to help you out. You either can kill, or you can't. They do have a different sort of forum dynamic in the sense that the top players and top forum personalities are usually people who can kill you straight up, no questions asked. It's really not anywhere near as far a stretch as people seem to think, but, of course, you'd have to experience those other game environments in depth to understand what you're talking about, and I think that gets to the crux of your argument.
The basic crux of what little actual argument that can be mined out of your response is that "no moderation rules or methods can work for all communities". That's true. No where did I claim otherwise. There are, however, basic principles and philosophies that apply. I've spoken in very basic terms. Or are you going to sit there and try to argue that an international game does not need to respect regional standards in interpersonal relationships, or something so basic as respecting posters for whom English is not their first language? Are you honestly going to take a ***** at the need for accountability? Or the importance of responsiveness to customer concerns?
This is the internet, credentials or experience aren't expected to carry the day, ideas and argument are. If you're going to call "bull****", fine, but give an actual counter-argument to the points made. "Eve's unique" followed up by a red herring comment doesn't contribute much of anything and certainly doesn't demonstrate that you've willing (or able) to engage the issues under consideration. Now, if you'd actually share some ideas and conceptions of your own and contribute productively to the discussion, now seems to be the time.
Anyways, my best regards to the moderators who were actually working to improve the system, who recognized its failings. Hopefully your feedback will be welcomed and you'll be able to positively contribute to the next version of the forum system. I know how thankless a job moderating is and how under-appreciated. Hopefully anyone who read my post did so carefully and noticed that my criticisms were clearly at CCP and your senior moderators and team lead, rather than the frontline guys who did the job they were given with little or no recognition and I suspect no where near enough appreciation.
------------------------------------------
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"
'Teh Onchinator' |
RedClaws
Amarr
Dragon's Rage
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.08.21 23:53:00 -
[120]
I'm kinda wondering here... It's all pretty confusing.
First: Why?
Second: 2 Mods for the entire forum? Thats going to be some serious work.
Thirdly: I'm guessing applying to ISD at the moment isn't really going to get me far. Is there ANY way I can volunteer to help in Eve now?
Seeing as the blog still mentions bughunting and translations how do I get involved with that?
And finally: While I only ever saw one event (in which I played a major part getting some documents to a nearby station) and while that event failed epically because I delivered the documents yet still failed in my mission, It is still sad to see something like this go.
It just doesn't make sense 
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