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Kirov VIII	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:29:00 - [1] CCP, I refresh a little your memory. Read your own dev blog : Here I quote somes sentences : Quote: Amarr needs oomph. Still waiting for oomph ... Quote: problems that plague Amarr. The biggest one in my opinion is the popularity of so called omni tank. Not really corrected Quote: The Amarr were supposed to be the capacitor race No change ! Quote: Of course that is totally dependant on how we're "overhauling" nosferatus. Remplace nosferatu by neutralizer. The problem is the same => no more cap Quote: People say that beams are too hard to fit and in general, I agree. You have modifier only ONE BEAM turret ! Quote: Khanid MK2 It's ok but you have remplaced all turrets by launchers. It's good but don't correct other amarr ship ... Quote: Which ships you might ask? Well, Armageddon might need some fitting help, the cruisers aren't really that great and Apocalypse might get a bit of a role twist. It's really easy : no change on both BS, no change on all cruisers CCP, you await what ? You have about 25% of the game which really need something and you make nothing ! You have only corrected a very old nerfl (2years, may be more). The 50% reduce of the pulse range without any bonus. Amarr need always oomph ! If one gallente by example say : Amarr are overpowered. You can change the damage of the laser by hybrid and give our very good em/thermal damage to gallente for laught ? ********************************************* For me, it's almost not possible to correct the laser without change damage or rebalance all resists and it's probably too much job for you ... The laser should be supposed pierce all materials no ? You can try to put all damages on lenses with very low damage for correct the problem of this crap em damage on most player/npc ships.
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:42:00 - [2] yay i thought the amarr whine was dead but obviously not. While we are here though i would ask that something be done about 80% of amarr ships having one of their bonuses tied up in the laser cap use bonus and something be done about long range ammo only doing EM as that makes amarr a little weak at sniping.
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:43:00 - [3] yeah, an omni-damage type laser would be cool. maybe call it a "phaser" or "disruptor" or something... and it could use enough cap that only amarr ships with laser bonuses would be able to make proper use of them. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Redglare's Demise Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:13:00 - [4] Considering any laser boat wastes one bonus just to be able to USE lasers... Lasers need some kind of boost.
Nex Angelus Caldari Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:19:00 - [5] Edited by: Nex Angelus on 12/09/2007 23:20:02 Tbh, I never had a problem with the gankageddon, the one ship that made me fear Amarr... Now all Amarr ships is up for grabs (especially since you nerfed the Curse) Edit: and I'm Caldari specced ffs... the non-PvP race
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:33:00 - [6] Edited by: Kazuma Saruwatari on 12/09/2007 23:33:54 Lasers need a boost, and badly ever since Amarr was created. Seriously, having nearly all ships having a bonus to laser cap use just shows how badly lasers need a boost. Amarr ships are fine, cept when you put lasers on them. And even if you are mad enough to spec amarr up to lvl5-everything, Amarr are still suffering cap issues, to the point they're a non-issue also due to EM/Therm damage outputs. the only consolation with Amarr is that when the target is not tanking em/therm (and by god wtf was he thinking?!), they can melt it and melt it fast. Now, put the same situation against someone who knows how to tank against amarr, and you'll see 9/10's of the time Amarr either run out of cap and die, take too long and die, or just die. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Daelorn State War Academy	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:38:00 - [7] Unbalance is more fun. Unless you're Amarr »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
Arachidamia The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:54:00 - [8] Even making some of the crystals do more thermal than em damage would be a welcome step in the right direction. All the issues with amarr come down to lasers really. They have cap problems, fitting problems and damage type problems. And not much in return. Something needs to be done
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:01:00 - [9] Originally by: Redglare's Demise Considering any laser boat wastes one bonus just to be able to USE lasers... Lasers need some kind of boost. So what? Projectile boats waste one bonus to up the dps to a bit less then pathetic levels, thats just how it works: ship bonuses making up for weaknesses of racial weapons
esclavegalllente	Posted - 2007.09.15 20:00:00 - [10] i agree kirov , ccp put the heavy assault missile launcher on the sacrilege because it accepts that the laser aren't balanced
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.15 20:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Amy Wang Originally by: Redglare's Demise Considering any laser boat wastes one bonus just to be able to USE lasers... Lasers need some kind of boost. So what? Projectile boats waste one bonus to up the dps to a bit less then pathetic levels, thats just how it works: ship bonuses making up for weaknesses of racial weapons What about the optimal range bonuses on caldari railguns? What about the damage and tracking bonuses on blasters? I thought that Minmatar had double damage bonii on lots of their ships so that they could get as much damage out of 6 slots as other ships could out of 8, which let them use their additional highs for other stuff, being the 'versatility' race. __________________________________
annoing Amarr MisFunk Inc. Frontline.	Posted - 2007.09.15 21:44:00 - [12] If I had known Amarr was so crap I would have never created this amarr character all those years ago. Cant fight and tank at the same time. Lasers are weak. Cap usage is perversly way out of synch. More armour? Big deal, means nothing if you cant tank it. I fly Ravens now because I can simply run 4 shield hardeners and 7 launchers and NEVER run out of cap when I rat. As for PVP I have to use covert or stealth Aamarr because you cant battle in anything else for fear of cap drain. Never mind, instead of fixing the game and equalising the races, we can walk around stations, order drinks and choose new clothes.. how exciting is that yawn PS: CCP GM's etc never read this stuff, and if they do they give a wry smile and forget it instantly. Developers dont develop, bug hunters dont hunt, customer service ignores customers and we all ignored. Welcome to Eve.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.09.15 22:08:00 - [13] What kills me in all this time is CCP saw fit to buff the Gallente Deimos and will soon be buffing drone ships: Originally by: CCP Oveur Bandwidth referenced here is not in reference to your internet connection. It's to un-nerf specialized drone ships and allow more differentation between ships. WTF? Deimos maybe needed a bit of a tweak but Amarr have been waiting FAR longer. And "un-nerf" drone ships? Huh? Is that because there has been a rampaging cry from Gallente that they are nerfed and need help? Because in the tournament all those Ishtars and such were so awful? Because Dominixes are used less than Apocalypse? Yeah...Gallente have been SO hurting. Look, maybe these changes are good ones but Amarr have been borked for ages. Gallente are THE preferred PvP ship choice. Frankly if they had one semi-nerfed ship in the Deimos tough. Amarr have pretty much their entire line of ships in need of help.
Cpt Constantinus PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.15 22:13:00 - [14] Edited by: Cpt Constantinus on 15/09/2007 22:13:09 A small boost would be nice indeed. Especialy the Apoc needs some serious help. The Maller and the Omen too. Regarding the capdrain in pvp...try a passive tanked Geddon for group pvp. Works fine and you will rarely run out of cap.
Titus Lewis Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.15 23:38:00 - [15] CCP, please fix lasers. Thanks Freedom is Slavery
Oedus Caro Caldari Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.09.16 00:16:00 - [16] Look, I agree that Amarr needs some more loving, but don't be in such a rush to bite their heads off because the changes thus far are unsatisfactory. The last thing CCP wants to do is to boost Amarr from worst race to best race, so they're going to do it in baby steps. They've said as much explicitly; calm down and be patient for it.
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.09.16 00:30:00 - [17] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h What kills me in all this time is CCP saw fit to buff the Gallente Deimos and will soon be buffing drone ships: Originally by: CCP Oveur Bandwidth referenced here is not in reference to your internet connection. It's to un-nerf specialized drone ships and allow more differentation between ships. WTF? Deimos maybe needed a bit of a tweak but Amarr have been waiting FAR longer. And "un-nerf" drone ships? Huh? Is that because there has been a rampaging cry from Gallente that they are nerfed and need help? Because in the tournament all those Ishtars and such were so awful? Because Dominixes are used less than Apocalypse? Yeah...Gallente have been SO hurting. Look, maybe these changes are good ones but Amarr have been borked for ages. Gallente are THE preferred PvP ship choice. Frankly if they had one semi-nerfed ship in the Deimos tough. Amarr have pretty much their entire line of ships in need of help. read the 'geddon will no longer be able to field 5 heavies.
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.09.16 00:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Audri Fisher read the 'geddon will no longer be able to field 5 heavies. Most likely it will still be able to field 5 heavies. The feature is designed to make it so that dedicated drone ships can have more replacements without letting them field drones too big for their size class. The vexor is a prime example of this. Increasing its drone bay would let you use a full load of heavies and that's just not going to happen but with bandwidth it will be fine. So the major change is that gallente ships and more specifically drone-specialised ships will get larger drone bays and their DPS will be reigned in a bit on any ship where it's out of balance like perhaps the myrmidon. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.16 00:42:00 - [19] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: Imperator Jora'h What kills me in all this time is CCP saw fit to buff the Gallente Deimos and will soon be buffing drone ships: Originally by: CCP Oveur Bandwidth referenced here is not in reference to your internet connection. It's to un-nerf specialized drone ships and allow more differentation between ships. WTF? Deimos maybe needed a bit of a tweak but Amarr have been waiting FAR longer. And "un-nerf" drone ships? Huh? Is that because there has been a rampaging cry from Gallente that they are nerfed and need help? Because in the tournament all those Ishtars and such were so awful? Because Dominixes are used less than Apocalypse? Yeah...Gallente have been SO hurting. Look, maybe these changes are good ones but Amarr have been borked for ages. Gallente are THE preferred PvP ship choice. Frankly if they had one semi-nerfed ship in the Deimos tough. Amarr have pretty much their entire line of ships in need of help. read the 'geddon will no longer be able to field 5 heavies. And thus, a stealth nerf to Gallente (which needs it, more or less) and Amarr (which doesnt need it). Seriously, CCP, Lasers need work, lots of work. Amarr are fine as armor-tanking melters, and not versatility. Amarr are one-railed as is in design focus, with lasers this just flat-out restricts them all the more, to either full gank with EM/Therm, or flat-out tank. Gallente can do Amarr's job way better, without drone use. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.16 01:15:00 - [20] signed-- Over the last year & 1/2 of amarr being broken I have cross trained to gallante and still haven't gone back. Still waiting on laser/non-khanid fixes. I must say ccp did a very good job with khanid but I'm still training to use missles.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.16 02:56:00 - [21] Y'know, it would be nice if my True Amarr character who lives in Amarr space and is pretty much all-Amarr, all the time, would be better off flying a beam boat than Caldari ships, or Calmarr... m'bad, KHANID ships. (Not that I'm complaining about Khanid Mk2. TYVM for that one, seriously.)
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.16 03:31:00 - [22] Just finished training up T2 pulse for my Abaddon on Sisi. Wow, these things are awesome. Rips right through a Dominix tank no sweat. HACs and Command Ships where the EM resists are really low just get mangled by it, since most people armor tank, and the first thing they protect is their explosive resist hole. Passive armor tank is just insane as well. With my HG slaves on TQ I'm looking at over 44k armor easy. That's nuts. With dual injectors and a great optimal, I can keep fighting for quite a while as long as I don't get ECMed. 2-3 heavy neutralizers really hurt my cap, but nos just isn't the problem it used to be. Neuts are pretty scary, but if you time your booster cycles right, you can use up most of your cap before the next neut cycle hits. Just make sure you're fully passive tanked with a DC instead of any active hardeners, so your tank doesn't shut off due to lack of cap. Haven't tried the Harbinger much yet, but from the looks of it, it should get some really good DPS with maxed gunnery skills. The laser optimal is great. Too bad I don't have access to faction multifrequency crystals on Sisi at the moment. That's another 15% free DPS. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.16 03:36:00 - [23] Here's my idea for a simple, effective way to boost Amarr. Firstly, implement a "racial bonus" on all ships. This is an RP bonus that reflects the ship design's origin. These bonuses are something like as follows: Amarr: 40% reduction in capacitor need of energy turrets. Caldari: 25% reduction in missile launcher CPU requirements Gallente: 10% reduction in hybrid turret CPU and Powergrid requirements. Minmatar: 25% reduction in projectile turret powergrid requirements. (Note: I just made these up on the spot. The actual values would probably need tweaking in the intersts of game fairness) These are fixed constants across the board on all ships of that race. Now that that's out of the way, we look at giving the amarrians an actual second bonus to their ship. here's some suggestions: Executioner: 5% increase per level to base speed. Punisher: 5% increase per level in small energy turret rate of fire Omen: 5% increase per level in medium energy turret damage Maller: 5% increase per level to armour HP Armageddon: 10% increase per level in large energy turret optimal range Apocalypse: 5% increase per level to armour HP. Abaddon: no change. note that it has the racial bonus now, however. The thing is that this does NOTHING to fix the damage types, or even the balance of the amarrian ships - but what it does generally do is allow them to fire faster, or hit harder. Lasers don't necessarily need to have more base damage coming out of their ammo - but with the right bonuses in place they can still be competetive. All the other races, of course, already have two bonuses per ship - this way, they get a beneficial extra effect that usually serves the purpose of making them easier to fit. Everyone gets something, it's like Christmas. - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.09.16 04:09:00 - [24] Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton on 16/09/2007 04:09:20 needs oomph, yes yes it does, omni tank. here is where i am confused. Doesnt omni tank refer to a tank with high resists to everything. and doesnt that hurt every race equally. what does hurt amarr is the EANM+DC tank 80 em 60-70ish everything else. cap race, slightly better capamount/cap recharge rates? everything can be capped out. beams, yes quite hard to fit. maelstrom has same pg and better cpu then an abaddon? Khanid MK2, some nice changes but white elephant geddon got some more cpu. apoc got nothing, crusiers got nothing (well curse and pilgrim got "nerfed")
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.09.16 04:24:00 - [25] A simple boost to Amarr would be to cut the cap usage of lasers by 40-50% and replace the cap reduction on laser "bonus" with a +5% to cap capacity bonus (like the Apoc's). This fits in RP-wise since Amarr is supposed to be "the cap race". Really, a nice boost that won't overpower Amarr. Another simple boost would be to massively raise the thermal damage while massively decreasing the EM damage on laser crystals. Ship design rigidity (the Amarrian way of doing things, after all) is not a problem if you are doing the best damage type with your guns instead of the worst one. This is so simple that I simply don't understand why CCP hasn't done this yet. Besides, why in heaven's name would a laser, a beam of concentrated light, do more EM damage than thermal in the first place? As for oomph, well, I'd be perfectly glad to play a simple, rigid race if the ships actually performed the way they are supposed to.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.16 04:28:00 - [26] Amarr is the capOUT race. I like a lot of the Amarr ships, but certain things like the Zealot being one of the weakest dps HACs in the game is kinda silly. I get a whopping 320dps with t2 heavy pulse and 3x dmg mods. Meanwhile my Ishtar has slots for EW and does 466dps without even using dmg mods.
UGWidowmaker Caldari The Ankou The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.09.16 05:45:00 - [27] amarr sucks...nothingmore to say rely... OMFG I am the widowmaker stay tuned.
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.16 06:13:00 - [28] Originally by: Stitcher Here's my idea for a simple, effective way to boost Amarr. Firstly, implement a "racial bonus" on all ships. This is an RP bonus that reflects the ship design's origin. These bonuses are something like as follows: Amarr: 40% reduction in capacitor need of energy turrets. Caldari: 25% reduction in missile launcher CPU requirements Gallente: 10% reduction in hybrid turret CPU and Powergrid requirements. Minmatar: 25% reduction in projectile turret powergrid requirements. (Note: I just made these up on the spot. The actual values would probably need tweaking in the intersts of game fairness) This man speaks wisdom, CCP... Listen to it - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Ridjeck Thome The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.16 10:58:00 - [29] @ OP: thank-you...i was only wondering if REV3 would cover the promised Amarr changes at all. it would be nice to hear if there are any proposed changes to Amarr.
Senghir Amarr Deep Space Security	Posted - 2007.09.16 11:44:00 - [30] I too would like to see us get the changes which were talked about in the dev blog earlier this year. The blog said it was due for over the summer, but all I've seen is a Khanid boost, which isn't enough as firstly they aren't Tech 1 ships and therefore only affect those pilots wanting to go specialised in an area, and secondly it's only one of the three ship companies for Amarr. Another pilot said to me recently that a good change to make Amarr lasers better would be to simply reduce the standard EM armour resist, thereby not having to worry about what damage types the lasers are doing and affects everyone including Amarr on the armour. Anyway, I'm not too fussed about what changes we get as long as we get something. Our race sucks more than others at the moment and no-one disagrees. I mean take a look at other MMORPGs, no-one can agree on anything as far as class balance goes, but here in EVE you have a game where even the other races think Amarr need some love so you really do have an issue here.
Vrabac Amarr BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.09.16 11:53:00 - [31] The Khanid mk2, geddon cpu and few other minor changes did help amarr slightly, but it's not what the core of the problem is. Amarr arent such a bad race once they HEAVILY specialize. They can do wicked damage. They can have very tough tanks. Problem is they can't have effective mixture of those 2, while many other ships of other races, namely Gallente, can. Problam lies IMHO in 1-bonus layout of majority of the ships. On the other hand if they would recieve 2nd bonus of high value (lets say armor resist bonus on harbinger instead of cap bonus, or rof bonus on punisher or something like that) it would actually make most of them too strong, except for those really useless ships like Omen or Apoc. Problem is pretty complex, and imho can't be resolved in one single attempt. Maybe the way ccp is taking with gradual boosts/nerfs is the right way to go, we can only wait and see.
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.09.16 11:56:00 - [32] If Amarr is so badly broken, why am I crosstraining for an Absolution right now? Light Assault Launchers & Defender FoF ideas
Senghir Amarr Deep Space Security	Posted - 2007.09.16 12:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Mashie Saldana If Amarr is so badly broken, why am I crosstraining for an Absolution right now? I think only you know the answer to that. It's a pointless question imo. It doesnt benefit the thread in any way except to perhaps hint that you disagree with Amarr needing a buff. If that's what you mean, say it.
Bon Hedus Amarr O.E.C Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.16 12:04:00 - [34] Originally by: Mashie Saldana If Amarr is so badly broken, why am I crosstraining for an Absolution right now? Because the Absolution is a great ship. Why don't you cross train to fly the Curse/Pilgrim, now that NOS has been nerfed. How about Training to fly the Amarr BS's with all the issues that have been brought up? How about Training to fly the Guardian? Or how about the Amarr EW ships? (oh wait, we don't have those) Cross training to fly 1 ship means absolutely jack. Try the rest of the ships in the Amarr line. -------------------------------------- Heavy Lag Spike II belonging to EvE Cluster Node #0815 hits your Connection, wrecking your latency to 998ms
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.09.16 12:18:00 - [35] Originally by: Senghir Originally by: Mashie Saldana If Amarr is so badly broken, why am I crosstraining for an Absolution right now? I think only you know the answer to that. It's a pointless question imo. It doesnt benefit the thread in any way except to perhaps hint that you disagree with Amarr needing a buff. If that's what you mean, say it. To be honest, every race want their stuff buffed until they have the I-win button. Before the nos nerf I didn't hear any Curse pilots complain about Amarr ships being crap. Light Assault Launchers & Defender FoF ideas
Mrs Crow Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.09.16 12:23:00 - [36] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Senghir Originally by: Mashie Saldana If Amarr is so badly broken, why am I crosstraining for an Absolution right now? I think only you know the answer to that. It's a pointless question imo. It doesnt benefit the thread in any way except to perhaps hint that you disagree with Amarr needing a buff. If that's what you mean, say it. To be honest, every race want their stuff buffed until they have the I-win button. Before the nos nerf I didn't hear any Curse pilots complain about Amarr ships being crap.
Bon Hedus Amarr O.E.C Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.16 12:26:00 - [37] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Senghir Originally by: Mashie Saldana If Amarr is so badly broken, why am I crosstraining for an Absolution right now? I think only you know the answer to that. It's a pointless question imo. It doesnt benefit the thread in any way except to perhaps hint that you disagree with Amarr needing a buff. If that's what you mean, say it. To be honest, every race want their stuff buffed until they have the I-win button. Before the nos nerf I didn't hear any Curse pilots complain about Amarr ships being crap. No, you didn't hear any Curse pilots complaining about the Recons. However there are pages on pages of Amarr pilots complaining about the other Amarr ships (Other than the Absolution. The arguments brought up in the previous pages are quite valid. A boost has been promised for Amarr, and it really hasn't happened as yet. Amarr was undoubtedly the best before the Heatsink stacking nerf of way back... now any pvper worth his or her salt will tank for Amarr. Just open your eyes to the rest of the ships. There are issues there that need to be addressed. 1 good ship (absolution) out of all of Amarr's fleet does not mean that the rest are ok. -------------------------------------- Heavy Lag Spike II belonging to EvE Cluster Node #0815 hits your Connection, wrecking your latency to 998ms
mama guru Gallente Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2007.09.16 12:54:00 - [38] Amarr MK.II Reduce fitting requirements of all laser turrets a little(shave off 50-75 powergrid on lets say mega pulses, 200 or more for Tachyons Make sure we dont have more highslot then turrets, replace said spare highslot with 1 extra midslot, exceptions of this rule are Ewar ships like the Arbitrator. Cut laser cap usage by 40% flat out, replace the bonus with a 10% armor hp per lvl bonus on all ships that does not have an armor related bonus. Exceptions to this rule are for example the Arbitrator. Replace all Rate of Fire bonuses with Direct Damage bonuses. New armageddon: 7x Highs (7x turrets) 4x midslots 8x lowslots 5% bonus to laser damage per level. 10% bonus to armor hp per level Give the Zealot +15tf CPU and another Turret slot to bring it in line with other "Gank HAC's" OR give it a 40-50 m3 dronebay, however id still prefer the extra turret as it feels more amarr style , even tho the dronebay would be better. Problem solved, no need for explosive crystals or anything. Is this gonna unscrew amarr? Yes. Is this gonna make them overpowerd compared to lets say gallente/minmatar? no. Is there no reason whatsoever NOT to bring in similar changes? NO. There was a thread a while ago that suggested similar changes to amarr ships. I liked it alot but i cant find it. -YOU ARE NOW READING MY SIGNATURE- EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Arachidamia The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.16 18:16:00 - [39] Originally by: mama guru Cut laser cap usage by 40% flat out I'm against that. If you cut fitting reqs and cap use.. you're making lasers like hybrids. Better to keep the heavy fitting reqs and cap use, and instead buff the damage (types). Imho lasers should be a pain to fit and fuel with cap... but their damage output should be the highest to balance that out. And right now their realistic DPS is rather low...
mama guru Gallente Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2007.09.16 18:25:00 - [40] Originally by: Arachidamia Originally by: mama guru Cut laser cap usage by 40% flat out I'm against that. If you cut fitting reqs and cap use.. you're making lasers like hybrids. Better to keep the heavy fitting reqs and cap use, and instead buff the damage (types). Imho lasers should be a pain to fit and fuel with cap... but their damage output should be the highest to balance that out. And right now their realistic DPS is rather low... That wont fix the problem, the problem is simple. amarr does not live up to their intended design unless it is to be the worst race when it comes to fittings and cap efficiency. I dont want explosive damage on lasers, I want them to last longer and be a tiny bit easier to fit. That way amarr can get a bonus that is actually useful -YOU ARE NOW READING MY SIGNATURE- EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2007.09.16 18:27:00 - [41] Originally by: Kirov VIII Quote: People say that beams are too hard to fit and in general, I agree. You have modifier only ONE BEAM turret ! Nope! They've boosted pulses tracking by 25% and rendered quad light beams to be absolutely useless. That's how CCP addressed beams ---
Drizit Amarr Lonely out here Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.16 18:46:00 - [42] Originally by: Mashie Saldana If Amarr is so badly broken, why am I crosstraining for an Absolution right now? Cos you've been suckered! The ship is great but the weapons are what let it down. Only by training lvl5 Command ships can you actually match the damage done by many other ships. Adding specialiszed laser skills to get the most out of them is extremely time consuming. Even a Drake can deal more damage with specialized missile skills than an energy weapon Absolution with equally specialized energy weapon skills. The only thing that strengthens the Absolution against the Drake is the ROF bonus and its resists. But this small difference between a Tier3 BC and a Command ship is pitifully small compared to the cost difference. I actually started training hybrid to put rails on most of my Amarr ships because energy weapons suck. --
Ather Ialeas Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.09.16 18:50:00 - [43] Originally by: Fon Revedhort Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 16/09/2007 18:33:32 Originally by: Kirov VIII Quote: People say that beams are too hard to fit and in general, I agree. You have modifier only ONE BEAM turret ! Nope! They've boosted pulses tracking by 25% and rendered quad light beams to be absolutely useless. That's how CCP addressed beams Nevermind they've ignored cap use and fitting issues. We are amarr and can wait another year or so And then we'll face a damage mods CPU use 'fix' Do remember though that it was what, 1..1+ year ago when Pulse tracking was hit hard by the nerfbat, I think it was something like 30-50% decrease. -
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.09.16 18:57:00 - [44] Originally by: mama guru Things I would sell my own mother for this.
Ira Theos	Posted - 2007.09.16 19:11:00 - [45] I totally endorse all the criticisms of CCP's stupidity with regard to the Amarr imabalance. Lasers need to be removed from the weapons categuory since a basic requirement of a "weapon" is that it must do damage to the target. Lasers are "light show" displays, not weapons.
Ira Theos	Posted - 2007.09.16 19:16:00 - [46] Originally by: annoing If I had known Amarr was so crap I would have never created this amarr character all those years ago. Cant fight and tank at the same time. Lasers are weak. Cap usage is perversly way out of synch. More armour? Big deal, means nothing if you cant tank it. I fly Ravens now because I can simply run 4 shield hardeners and 7 launchers and NEVER run out of cap when I rat. As for PVP I have to use covert or stealth Aamarr because you cant battle in anything else for fear of cap drain. Never mind, instead of fixing the game and equalising the races, we can walk around stations, order drinks and choose new clothes.. how exciting is that yawn PS: CCP GM's etc never read this stuff, and if they do they give a wry smile and forget it instantly. Developers dont develop, bug hunters dont hunt, customer service ignores customers and we all ignored. Welcome to Eve. ************************* I totally endorse this player's viewpoint.
Mithfindel Amarr Ordo Crucis Argenteus	Posted - 2007.09.16 19:47:00 - [47] Edited by: Mithfindel on 16/09/2007 19:50:23 I understand that a long, long time ago in a galaxy far away (EVE Cluster) there used to be really good lasers. However, they were used by other races, too, so they were hit by the nerfbat. The result is known by scholars around the universe as "vae Amarria", or more commonly, "the Amarrian whine". Not to be confused with the fine spiced wines of the Kador region. Suggestion for (possible) balancing: - Raise laser damage by across the board. This will act as a replacement for the ship bonus. - Raise all laser PG requirements across the board. This will mean that they'll become impossible/insane to fit, except that... - Change the Amarr cap bonus to be a cap and pg bonus for laser weapons. (Edit: Two bonuses in one, but to the same thing - so ships still obey the "two bonuses" rule.) Problems: - Abaddon does not have the cap bonus. Perhaps replace its damage bonus with the cap/fitting bonus? Then again, it would change the ship completely. Making it have the huge PG required to fit its arsenal would be, again, troublesome. - Low-skilled characters get nerfed. Though, then there'd be some real use for the low-end weapons, as well. - "too powerful" whines should be generally set aside as the main damage type (EM) is very easy to tank (specially if you tank armour, but EM hardener and a few Invulnerability fields make wonders for the shield tanks, as well). Example values: - All laser damage +25% - All laser PG requirements +50% - Amarr ship's bonus -10 % to laser cap usage, -7.5 % to laser PG usage With skills at level 5, this would mean that the cap usage of lasers is the same as now, but they do 25% more damage and their PG usage is modified by +50% and -37.5% to the modified value, total change of 150*(100-37.5)%=93.75%.
Jangizal Caldari NYIT Gangstaz SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.16 19:51:00 - [48] I fly Caldari and Gallente ships, so naturally I would be biased in favor of these two races, but I do agree that the Amarr race needs some help. Blog.
Grez Minmatar Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.16 19:53:00 - [49] Been waiting for years. Still no change - I wouldn't get your hopes up. ---
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.16 19:54:00 - [50] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: mama guru Things I would sell my own mother for this. I'm already trying to sell your mother for this. Hell, I'll throw my own mother into the mix. A two-for-one mother enslavement deal. D to the C's mom plus mine, for the cheap price of Amarr ship mods that don't suck and lasers that aren't facking boat anchors! It's highway robbery, and we'll thank you for it!
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.16 20:35:00 - [51] The simplest fix would be to increase laser damage across the board. If you take away the laser cap use bonus from the ships, you'd have other races using lasers.
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:15:00 - [52] Originally by: mama guru Amarr MK.II Good GOD YES PLEASE - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.09.16 22:07:00 - [53] Originally by: Amarria Black I'm already trying to sell your mother for this. Hell, I'll throw my own mother into the mix. A two-for-one mother enslavement deal. D to the C's mom plus mine, for the cheap price of Amarr ship mods that don't suck and lasers that aren't facking boat anchors! It's highway robbery, and we'll thank you for it! Did you get any offers so far? If not, I'll throw in my sister and an almost-new pair of sneakers.
Lithalnas Amarr Headcrabs	Posted - 2007.09.16 22:20:00 - [54] I would like to see more damage and more HP on amarr ships. and the apoc needs a smartbomb or mining bonus... ------------- fixed for greater eve content
Liet Traep Minmatar Black Lance Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.16 22:53:00 - [55] I personally would love the cap use bonus dropped for a nos bonus. Right now you can only nos down to your cap state. what if amarr ships got a bonus letting them nos an enemy closer to 0% based on skill level. Just an idea.
Sleepkevert Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.16 23:03:00 - [56] Edited by: Sleepkevert on 16/09/2007 23:10:47 I have always used rails / artys on my prophecy. What are these lasers you speak of? And why should you use them on ships that only get 10% reduction in cap for lasers, if you can use guns that use no cap at all? So, when i'm using artys anyway, why not train for a race that has bonuses to them? Ah right, i already did! The only good reason there is to lasers, is that they don't use any ammo. This can be quite an advantage while ratting in 0.0 or something, but other then that, it's really no deal to by some cheap ammo (imagine the amount of shells you can shoot with the amount of money you pay for a crystal) Now, name me one, just one, good reason to use lasers over other races turrets on 50% of the amarr boats that only have the x% of cap reduction bonus on turrets... By not using them i can free up at least 3 slots on my NPCing geddon, because of the amount of t2 cap relays and t2 cap rechargers needed to perma run the damn lasers... Sign my sig
Some Caldari Caldari Shadow Warrioz	Posted - 2007.09.17 00:08:00 - [57] Maybe make it so that lasers still take the same amount of cap but have a modifier that reduced cap use by 50% when fitted to amarr hulls so effectively freeing up amarr ships to have a second proper bonus while making it undesirable to use lasers with other races. That or have it as a static bonus like the blockade runners +2 warp strength. ------------ Originally by: Banana Torres Gurls are overrated, they nick your money and hurt your ears. Just so you can have limited access to their soft and squishy bits.
Trishan Green Men Incorporated	Posted - 2007.09.17 00:12:00 - [58] Originally by: Sleepkevert Edited by: Sleepkevert on 16/09/2007 23:10:47 I have always used rails / artys on my prophecy. What are these lasers you speak of? And why should you use them on ships that only get 10% reduction in cap for lasers, if you can use guns that use no cap at all? Probably because an unbonused ship with arty is going to put out some pitiful dps.
Neo Rainhart Caldari Leela's Lamas	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:20:00 - [59] Edited by: Neo Rainhart on 17/09/2007 09:23:14 Originally by: Bon Hedus Originally by: Mashie Saldana If Amarr is so badly broken, why am I crosstraining for an Absolution right now? Because the Absolution is a great ship. Why don't you cross train to fly the Curse/Pilgrim, now that NOS has been nerfed. How about Training to fly the Amarr BS's with all the issues that have been brought up? How about Training to fly the Guardian? Or how about the Amarr EW ships? (oh wait, we don't have those) Cross training to fly 1 ship means absolutely jack. Try the rest of the ships in the Amarr line. Im crosstraining for an absolution and the amarr battleships atm.. When i finish t2 megapulses and amarr BS 5 im gonna have the time of my life flying gank abaddons and geddons Nothing to complain about tbh, amarr is a kickass race. And i consider the abaddon a good solopwnmobile (nos nerf confirms)
Tareen Kashaar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:58:00 - [60] I fly Amarr. Amarr are fine. Crosstrain some other races, m'dears. Every race has their drawbacks and strengths. Amarr actually rule pretty hard. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, price negotiable. Evemail me!
mama guru Gallente Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2007.09.17 10:15:00 - [61] Originally by: Tareen Kashaar I fly Amarr. Amarr are fine. Crosstrain some other races, m'dears. Every race has their drawbacks and strengths. Amarr actually rule pretty hard. Amarr is not broken in terms of T2(except the zealot) its their classic ships that are falling behind. -YOU ARE NOW READING MY SIGNATURE- EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.17 10:56:00 - [62] Edited by: Kazuma Saruwatari on 17/09/2007 10:56:32 There's a reason why only the t2 amarr ships get praise so far in this thread. See any T1 praise besides the Abbadon? Gallente, give praise to nearly all of it's t1 and t2 lineup. Caldari, give praise to it's t2 lineup, the Rokh, Raven, Caracal, Drake, Blackbird. Mimmatar, give praise. Period. See something missing? - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Neo Rainhart Caldari Leela's Lamas	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:49:00 - [63] Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari Edited by: Kazuma Saruwatari on 17/09/2007 10:56:32 There's a reason why only the t2 amarr ships get praise so far in this thread. See any T1 praise besides the Abbadon? Gallente, give praise to nearly all of it's t1 and t2 lineup. Caldari, give praise to it's t2 lineup, the Rokh, Raven, Caracal, Drake, Blackbird. Mimmatar, give praise. Period. See something missing? T1 amarr huh? An arbitrator can pwn all t1 gunships (thorax, rupture etc) pretty hard anytime Besides that, geddon, punisher, prophecy with AC's, Gank harbinger...there i filled the missing part for you
Weryl	Posted - 2007.09.17 12:25:00 - [64] The market doesn't lie ... you can buy mega pulse and mega beam best named lasers for close to 1/10th the price of every other races best named weapon systems ...I personally have been buying faction mega beams and pulses for what I've seen other races tech 1 named guns selling for ...
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 13:05:00 - [65] Originally by: Neo Rainhart T1 amarr huh? An arbitrator can pwn all t1 gunships (thorax, rupture etc) pretty hard anytime Besides that, geddon, punisher, prophecy with AC's, Gank harbinger...there i filled the missing part for you No, it cant. Its good, but it cant.
Arachidamia The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.17 13:30:00 - [66] Originally by: Weryl The market doesn't lie ... you can buy mega pulse and mega beam best named lasers for close to 1/10th the price of every other races best named weapon systems ...I personally have been buying faction mega beams and pulses for what I've seen other races tech 1 named guns selling for ... Good luck trying that with cruiser weapons. Ever seen how expensive named focused medium pulse is? Kind of odd that tech2 focused mediums are about 400k, yet the decent named focused mediums are many millions each.
General StarScream Cybertronic Decepticons	Posted - 2007.09.17 13:35:00 - [67] Amarr dont need anything. they got there percks. as for the lame reson that everyone tanks Em And therm thats bs. most people have 71/71/80/80 so with that logic, gallante is the one that needs a boost in Dam. atlest for blasters. Amarr is just fine, and got alot of boost, far more than they needed. they dont need ammo, they can change range crystals at will with allmost no reload time. [
zilllii	Posted - 2007.09.17 13:44:00 - [68] Originally by: General StarScream Amarr dont need anything. they got there percks. as for the lame reson that everyone tanks Em And therm thats bs. most people have 71/71/80/80 so with that logic, gallante is the one that needs a boost in Dam. atlest for blasters. Amarr is just fine, and got alot of boost, far more than they needed. they dont need ammo, they can change range crystals at will with allmost no reload time. here you dropped your bag of *********
Sleepkevert Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.17 14:05:00 - [69] Originally by: General StarScream they can change range crystals at will with allmost no reload time. Oh and guess what, we almost need to every 10 seconds because of the crappy fallof laser guns have... Sign my sig
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.09.17 14:07:00 - [70] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 17/09/2007 14:09:54 "Well Jitas a lagfest, drones arn't to par. I just can't digest, this going too far." They whine about this, they whine about that. Their taking the wizz, in the I R C chat! But there's still a whine, that i do always adore, So had to do a little rhyme! Just so it's not a bore! Don't have to go far, it's so good to hear! They whine 'bout Amarr, So christmas is near! My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
infraX Caldari Endgame. Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.09.17 14:30:00 - [71] I fly all 4 races, split 2 races over 2 main characters. I am not biased. Take the 3 tier 2 gunboat battleships with BS V: The Tempest gets 25% ROF bonus & 25% damage to projectiles. The Megathron gets 25% Tracking bonus & 25% damage to hybrids. The Apocalypse gets 50% cap bonus to lasers & 25% overall cap bonus. The reason for these is to encourage the use of the 'correct' racial turret types on their respective ships. Without the bonuses, the turret is supposed to be unusable unless you use it on the correct ship: Projectiles ROF would be too slow. Hybrids Tracking would be inferior. Lasers cap usage would be insane. The turrets are balanced and the relevant ship bonuses for the Tier 2 battleships offset their default disadvantages. Otherwise everyone would just fit 'turret of the month' (tm). Now stop whinging because lasers 'only' get a cap bonus. Perhaps the default damage is high enough not to warrant a damage bonus on the ship, just as lasers tracking is high enough not to warrant a tracking bonus, and lasers ROF is high enough not to warrant a ROF bonus. CCP could reduce the base damage of lasers by 25% and then give the apoc a 5% per level damage to lasers while reducing the base cap usage to compensate. What's the difference? It all adds up to the same thing with proper skills.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:27:00 - [72] Originally by: General StarScream Amarr dont need anything. they got there percks. as for the lame reson that everyone tanks Em And therm thats bs. most people have 71/71/80/80 so with that logic, gallante is the one that needs a boost in Dam. atlest for blasters. Amarr is just fine, and got alot of boost, far more than they needed. they dont need ammo, they can change range crystals at will with allmost no reload time. Can I buy pot from you?
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.09.17 21:09:00 - [73] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Audri Fisher read the 'geddon will no longer be able to field 5 heavies. Most likely it will still be able to field 5 heavies. The feature is designed to make it so that dedicated drone ships can have more replacements without letting them field drones too big for their size class. The vexor is a prime example of this. Increasing its drone bay would let you use a full load of heavies and that's just not going to happen but with bandwidth it will be fine. So the major change is that gallente ships and more specifically drone-specialised ships will get larger drone bays and their DPS will be reigned in a bit on any ship where it's out of balance like perhaps the myrmidon. It's ammar, it will be nerfed.
Kirov VIII	Posted - 2007.09.18 17:50:00 - [74] C C P The players can't change turret/ship/damage/... You are alone and please WORK ON THE AMARR RACE ! It's 25% of your game which you ignore. Why change graphic effect of the laser if nobody use these turrets ? Stop all other things and balance ONE time the amarr ! I'm sure, it's very quick if all staff work on them.
Nihilo Deus Amarr Russian SOBR Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.17 14:07:00 - [75] Edited by: Nihilo Deus on 17/10/2007 14:13:31 Aah. Nwm
Tokra	Posted - 2007.10.17 15:37:00 - [76] Originally by: infraX I fly all 4 races, split 2 races over 2 main characters. I am not biased. Take the 3 tier 2 gunboat battleships with BS V: The Tempest gets 25% ROF bonus & 25% damage to projectiles. The Megathron gets 25% Tracking bonus & 25% damage to hybrids. The Apocalypse gets 50% cap bonus to lasers & 25% overall cap bonus. The reason for these is to encourage the use of the 'correct' racial turret types on their respective ships. Without the bonuses, the turret is supposed to be unusable unless you use it on the correct ship: Projectiles ROF would be too slow. Hybrids Tracking would be inferior. Lasers cap usage would be insane. The turrets are balanced and the relevant ship bonuses for the Tier 2 battleships offset their default disadvantages. Otherwise everyone would just fit 'turret of the month' (tm). Now stop whinging because lasers 'only' get a cap bonus. Perhaps the default damage is high enough not to warrant a damage bonus on the ship, just as lasers tracking is high enough not to warrant a tracking bonus, and lasers ROF is high enough not to warrant a ROF bonus. CCP could reduce the base damage of lasers by 25% and then give the apoc a 5% per level damage to lasers while reducing the base cap usage to compensate. What's the difference? It all adds up to the same thing with proper skills. And now the question. Why use Lasers on the Apocalypse? Using projectiles will give you all the cap for the tank and leave all other slots free for what you want. Instead of still having to equip (even with the 50% less cap use for lasers) cap modules just to fire your weapons becauce they still need way to much cap. If you ever can mount these PG eating monsters. Amarr ships are nice, untill you fit lasers on them :). And that is the problem with Amarr. Its not (mostly not) the problem with the ships. Its the lasers that make the problems. I am Amarr. And loved the ships, untill i used a drake (i am doing missions and not PVP). That really speaks for itself. I have 5.5 million sp in gunnery (all up to large pulse and beam spec) and dont even use them anymore.
Endaros System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.17 16:25:00 - [77] Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:27:14 Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:26:45 Lasers? On an Apoc? Let's check the numbers, shall we... Apoc with 8x Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflag, 3x Heat Sink II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 3223 Damage per Second: 743 Cap Usage: 34.6cap/s Optimal Cap Recharge: 26cap/s Time to No Cap: 10m 55s Apoc with 8x Neutron II, Void, 3x Mag Stab II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 3760 Damage per Second: 843 Cap Usage: 31.5cap/s Optimal Cap Recharge: 26cap/s Time to No Cap: 14m 50s Apoc with 8x 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail, 3x Gyro II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 2895 Damage per Second: 643 Cap Usage: 0cap/s Optimal Cap Recharge: 26cap/s Time to No Cap: Infinate So the differences? Neutrons: Volley Damage: +537 Damage per Second: +100 Cap Usage: -3.1cap/s Added Time to No Cap: 3m 55s 800s: Volley Damage: -328 Damage per Second: -100 Cap Usage: -34.6cap/s Added Time to No Cap: Infinate Confirming then, that if you want DPS on the Apoc, use Neutrons, and you get more cap as well... If you want infinate cap on the Apoc (ie what the bonuses SHOULD give), go for Autocannons, and you only lose 100 DPS! Okay, maybe it's not fair to compare guns on one ship, we've proved that the Apoc sucks for cap, so let's compare it's DPS versus other tier 2 BS... A recap on the original figures: Apoc with 8x Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflag, 3x Heat Sink II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 3223 Damage per Second: 743 Cap Usage: 34.6cap/s And then: Mega with 7x Neutron II, Void, 3x Mag Stab II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 4113 (+890) Damage per Second: 922 (+179) Cap Usage: 27.6cap/s (-7 Pest with 6x 800mm II, Hail, 3x Gyro II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 2714 (-509) Damage per Second: 794 (+51) Raven with 6x Siege II, Rage, 3x BCS II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 5630 (+2407) Damage per Second: 697 (-46) Bear in mind here, that the Megathron (which outshines every single BS) still has one free highslot, and the Tempest and Raven have two free highslots. Plus neither the pest nor raven need cap to fire guns, so can fire indefinately. As proved before, despite it's bonuses, the Apoc can only sustain fire for 10 minutes 55 seconds before capping out. Okay, so we've decided that the Apoc sucks for both DPS and cap (despite the fact that lasers are meant to have the highest DPS, and Amarr are "supposed to be the capacitor race"), so what is there left to check? EW capabilities! The Tempest and Raven both have more midslots, so that leaves the Megathron. A true comparison here... Well, as discussed the Mega has a free highslot, so can fit an energy neutraliser for EW as well as it's existing 4 mids. Everything else being equal between the two ships, the Megathron wins here also... So what's left? Tank ability? Well again, the Megathron has the same number of lowslots for all-out tanking than the Apocalypse does, so they're even... The Tempest is slightly worse off here, having one less slot with which to tank (but an extra midslot for EW, and TWO free highslots for neuts), and the Raven also only has 6 slots for a tank, but being a midslot tanker, the Raven can also fit damage mods, and therefore do both jobs at once, another thing that the Apoc fails at. So it has an average comparable tank, worse DPS, worse cap management... So what else can we test? The Apoc is a useless machine! Apoc with lasers is worse than Apoc with Neutrons in any way you look at it... The bonuses do not give it an advantage over any other ships, and it even fails at being a tank boat (AKA a lump of metal in space). So where's that role change? EDIT: Oh, and the Apoc also costs more to build than any other tier 2 BS...
Tokra	Posted - 2007.10.17 16:32:00 - [78] You forgot the most important role for the apoc. The mining factor. Thats the true role for Amarr, having a great mining BS... ;)
meateggsandowls	Posted - 2007.10.17 16:44:00 - [79] It is 20% of the game if you consider the number of miners in ORE ships.
Endaros System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.17 16:49:00 - [80] Originally by: Tokra You forgot the most important role for the apoc. The mining factor. Thats the true role for Amarr, having a great mining BS... ;) Considering miners mine in all tier of BS, I'll just go through them. All level 5 skills, maximum number of mining lasers, maximum number of laser upgrades with CPU enhancers in. Ore yield per minute: Rokh: 1045 Abaddon: 1019 Maelstron: 1019 Hyperion: 1019 Apocalypse: 970 Megathron: 915 Armageddon: 915 Dominix: 791 Tempest: 784 Typhoon: 529 Raven: 528 Scorpion: 523 So before the introduction of the tier 3 BS, the Apoc was the best mining boat out there, but now it's inferior to all tier 3 BS, and the best mining boat is the Rokh! So Amarr lose yet another maths battle... Oh, and every single BS can field 5 Harvester mining bots, so that figure doesn't matter! ... I can't believe I just worked out the maths for that, I feel so dirty...
iiOs	Posted - 2007.10.17 16:55:00 - [81] most amarr ships have this useless high slot, move it to med:) that would be a start Click me and get isk
Tokra	Posted - 2007.10.17 16:56:00 - [82] You really had to burst my last bubble in hope for Amarr ships, hadnt you?
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.17 17:20:00 - [83] Funny how CCP "boosted" Amarr by giving us ships that use missiles. :D Fix the damn laserboats already! I admit Abaddon is nice, but what about all the others? Freakin a
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.10.17 17:42:00 - [84] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 17/10/2007 17:42:25 Originally by: Endaros Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:27:14 Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:26:45 Interesting facts Why don't you include optimal range in your calculations?
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.17 17:52:00 - [85] Edited by: Megadon on 17/10/2007 17:53:21 Aye Amarr need some love just on the cap front imo. A new weapon type might be in order. Something like "Pulse Cannons". They would be short range, high damage weapons that used less cap than todays pulses. Similar to autocannons. KAKOW!!!! --------------
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.10.17 18:09:00 - [86] Originally by: Tokra Originally by: infraX I fly all 4 races, split 2 races over 2 main characters. I am not biased. Take the 3 tier 2 gunboat battleships with BS V: The Tempest gets 25% ROF bonus & 25% damage to projectiles. The Megathron gets 25% Tracking bonus & 25% damage to hybrids. The Apocalypse gets 50% cap bonus to lasers & 25% overall cap bonus. The reason for these is to encourage the use of the 'correct' racial turret types on their respective ships. Without the bonuses, the turret is supposed to be unusable unless you use it on the correct ship: Projectiles ROF would be too slow. Hybrids Tracking would be inferior. Lasers cap usage would be insane. The turrets are balanced and the relevant ship bonuses for the Tier 2 battleships offset their default disadvantages. Otherwise everyone would just fit 'turret of the month' (tm). Now stop whinging because lasers 'only' get a cap bonus. Perhaps the default damage is high enough not to warrant a damage bonus on the ship, just as lasers tracking is high enough not to warrant a tracking bonus, and lasers ROF is high enough not to warrant a ROF bonus. CCP could reduce the base damage of lasers by 25% and then give the apoc a 5% per level damage to lasers while reducing the base cap usage to compensate. What's the difference? It all adds up to the same thing with proper skills. And now the question. Why use Lasers on the Apocalypse? Using projectiles will give you all the cap for the tank and leave all other slots free for what you want. Thats fine, you want to keep your tank at significantly reduced DPS. Just like if I wanted to slap some pew pew on my typhoon for increase gun damage, I am going to sacrifice mid slots for cap rechargers. Actually, I am going to stick lasers on my phoon just to try that out! hehe! _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr UK Corp	Posted - 2007.10.17 18:13:00 - [87] WTB race respec to Minmatar. Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
Myra2007	Posted - 2007.10.17 18:13:00 - [88] Edited by: Myra2007 on 17/10/2007 18:14:22 Originally by: infraX I fly all 4 races, split 2 races over 2 main characters. I am not biased. Ok. Originally by: infraX Take the 3 tier 2 gunboat battleships with BS V: The Tempest gets 25% ROF bonus & 25% damage to projectiles. The Megathron gets 25% Tracking bonus & 25% damage to hybrids. The Apocalypse gets 50% cap bonus to lasers & 25% overall cap bonus. Exactly, thats their bonuses. Originally by: infraX The reason for these is to encourage the use of the 'correct' racial turret types on their respective ships. Without the bonuses, the turret is supposed to be unusable unless you use it on the correct ship: Projectiles ROF would be too slow. Hybrids Tracking would be inferior. Lasers cap usage would be insane. Blaster tracking is better than pulse tracking. Its only beams/rails where its the other way around. So, that thing doesn't really fly. Originally by: infraX The turrets are balanced and the relevant ship bonuses for the Tier 2 battleships offset their default disadvantages. That argument is inconsistent as shown above. Also you do realize all but 1 laser ship do have the cap bonus but not all hybrid ships got a tracking bonus, right? Your analogies stink. Originally by: infraX Otherwise everyone would just fit 'turret of the month' (tm). Which certainly wouldn't be lasers. Apart from that you do know many people fit turrets of the month (read projectiles) on amarr ships? And they do better than with lasers without your "necessary" rof bonus! Originally by: infraX Now stop whinging because lasers 'only' get a cap bonus. Perhaps the default damage is high enough not to warrant a damage bonus on the ship, just as lasers tracking is high enough not to warrant a tracking bonus, and lasers ROF is high enough not to warrant a ROF bonus. Yes, or perhaps laser default damage is just not high enough to justify only a cap bonus? And pulses have the worst tracking of all close range weapons. You talk like there were only blasters or only pulses when in reality every race has 2 different kind of turrets. Beams have other problems then pulses. Whats important for one turret isnt for another, still you pretend laser tracking or damage would be high in general which is just ignorant. Also if laser dmg is so omguberwtfbbq (please note blaster base dmg > pulse base dmg) why do we have ships with either rof or dmg bonus anyway? Originally by: infraX CCP could reduce the base damage of lasers by 25% and then give the apoc a 5% per level damage to lasers while reducing the base cap usage to compensate. What's the difference? It all adds up to the same thing with proper skills. Yes, and the thing is crap. Maybe you are not biased but you are uninformed. The fact that you try to argue how fine amarr ships are with of all ships (omg) the apoc as example shows you have no clue about amarr ships. You take one look at the bonus and say its ok. Maybe investigate fitting possibilities? Maybe compare dps/tank/versatility against other ships of the same class? No, that would be too much of work. I wouldn't bother either if i was flying gallente, i guess.
Aralt Aran	Posted - 2007.10.17 18:20:00 - [89] Remove the amarr race from eve please,most eve players will never fly those golden ships.Reduce amarr space ,because they didn`t want it anyway.Make it caldari space.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.10.17 18:44:00 - [90] Edited by: Ryas Nia on 17/10/2007 18:44:41 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Neo Rainhart T1 amarr huh? An arbitrator can pwn all t1 gunships (thorax, rupture etc) pretty hard anytime Besides that, geddon, punisher, prophecy with AC's, Gank harbinger...there i filled the missing part for you No, it cant. Its good, but it cant. Linkage Yes it can
Tokra	Posted - 2007.10.17 19:21:00 - [91] Originally by: Aralt Aran Remove the amarr race from eve please,most eve players will never fly those golden ships.Reduce amarr space ,because they didn`t want it anyway.Make it caldari space. Well, in fact Amarr space is already mostly Caldari space. Just check out all the ships there. Ravens and Drakes everywhere.
Tokra	Posted - 2007.10.17 19:24:00 - [92] Originally by: Ryas Nia Edited by: Ryas Nia on 17/10/2007 18:44:41 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Neo Rainhart T1 amarr huh? An arbitrator can pwn all t1 gunships (thorax, rupture etc) pretty hard anytime Besides that, geddon, punisher, prophecy with AC's, Gank harbinger...there i filled the missing part for you No, it cant. Its good, but it cant. Linkage Yes it can Really? Gallente Sentry Gun (Final blow) Seems it was 2vs1 if i read this data right.
Mrski Okupator Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:22:00 - [93] Go boost go! ___ Apocalypse Mining. Mine your way to heaven. What playing Amarr feels like. Shamelessly snatched from Almarez.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:27:00 - [94] Originally by: Tokra Really? Gallente Sentry Gun (Final blow) Seems it was 2vs1 if i read this data right. If you dig a little deeper and look at the related kills, he had a few buddies on the gate aswell. Odds are pretty good the zealot didn't even attack the arbi. The funny thing about that... three T1 ships (2 cruisers and a frigate) wtfpwned A T2 amarrian ship(zealot) and a Tier 2 amarr BC(harbringer).
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.17 22:32:00 - [95] Originally by: Endaros Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:27:14 Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:26:45 Lasers? On an Apoc? Let's check the numbers, shall we... Apoc with 8x Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflag, 3x Heat Sink II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 3223 Damage per Second: 743 Cap Usage: 34.6cap/s Optimal Cap Recharge: 26cap/s Time to No Cap: 10m 55s Apoc with 8x Neutron II, Void, 3x Mag Stab II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 3760 Damage per Second: 843 Cap Usage: 31.5cap/s Optimal Cap Recharge: 26cap/s Time to No Cap: 14m 50s Apoc with 8x 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail, 3x Gyro II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 2895 Damage per Second: 643 Cap Usage: 0cap/s Optimal Cap Recharge: 26cap/s Time to No Cap: Infinate So the differences? Neutrons: Volley Damage: +537 Damage per Second: +100 Cap Usage: -3.1cap/s Added Time to No Cap: 3m 55s 800s: Volley Damage: -328 Damage per Second: -100 Cap Usage: -34.6cap/s Added Time to No Cap: Infinate Confirming then, that if you want DPS on the Apoc, use Neutrons, and you get more cap as well... If you want infinate cap on the Apoc (ie what the bonuses SHOULD give), go for Autocannons, and you only lose 100 DPS! Okay, maybe it's not fair to compare guns on one ship, we've proved that the Apoc sucks for cap, so let's compare it's DPS versus other tier 2 BS... A recap on the original figures: Apoc with 8x Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflag, 3x Heat Sink II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 3223 Damage per Second: 743 Cap Usage: 34.6cap/s And then: Mega with 7x Neutron II, Void, 3x Mag Stab II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 4113 (+890) Damage per Second: 922 (+179) Cap Usage: 27.6cap/s (-7 Pest with 6x 800mm II, Hail, 3x Gyro II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 2714 (-509) Damage per Second: 794 (+51) Raven with 6x Siege II, Rage, 3x BCS II, All level 5 skills: Volley Damage: 5630 (+2407) Damage per Second: 697 (-46) Bear in mind here, that the Megathron (which outshines every single BS) still has one free highslot, and the Tempest and Raven have two free highslots. Plus neither the pest nor raven need cap to fire guns, so can fire indefinately. As proved before, despite it's bonuses, the Apoc can only sustain fire for 10 minutes 55 seconds before capping out. Okay, so we've decided that the Apoc sucks for both DPS and cap (despite the fact that lasers are meant to have the highest DPS, and Amarr are "supposed to be the capacitor race"), so what is there left to check? EW capabilities! The Tempest and Raven both have more midslots, so that leaves the Megathron. A true comparison here... Well, as discussed the Mega has a free highslot, so can fit an energy neutraliser for EW as well as it's existing 4 mids. Everything else being equal between the two ships, the Megathron wins here also... So what's left? Tank ability? Well again, the Megathron has the same number of lowslots for all-out tanking than the Apocalypse does, so they're even... The Tempest is slightly worse off here, having one less slot with which to tank (but an extra midslot for EW, and TWO free highslots for neuts), and the Raven also only has 6 slots for a tank, but being a midslot tanker, the Raven can also fit damage mods, and therefore do both jobs at once, another thing that the Apoc fails at. So it has an average comparable tank, worse DPS, worse cap management... So what else can we test? The Apoc is a useless machine! Apoc with lasers is worse than Apoc with Neutrons in any way you look at it... The bonuses do not give it an advantage over any other ships, and it even fails at being a tank boat (AKA a lump of metal in space). So where's that role change? EDIT: Oh, and the Apoc also costs more to build than any other tier 2 BS... I hope ccp reads this. I just cant understand how this has not been fixed.
Endaros System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.17 23:36:00 - [96] Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 17/10/2007 17:42:25 Originally by: Endaros Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:27:14 Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:26:45 Interesting facts Why don't you include optimal range in your calculations? Well we're talking about damage and cap use here, mainly the bonuses that the BS have, and comparing those bonuses with each other and how useful those bonuses are... But if you want to talk about optimal range, we should talk about falloff, tracking, and fitting requirements too... Mega Pulse Apoc: Optimal Range: 15,000 + 10,000 Half Damage: 25,000 No Damage: 35,000 Tracking: 0.02109 Powergrid: 19803 CPU: 398.46 Neutron Apoc: Optimal Range: 6,750 (-8,250) + 6,250 (-3,750) Half Damage: 13,000 (-12,000) No Damage: 19,250 (-15,750) Tracking: 0.02706 (+0.00597) Powergrid: 17016.6 (-2786.4) CPU: 445.02 (+46.56) Projectile Apoc: Optimal Range: 3,000 (-12,000) + 10,000 (=) Half Damage: 13,000 (-12,000) No Damage: 23,000 (-12,000) Tracking: 0.027 (+0.00591) Powergrid: 15843 (-3966) CPU: 328.62 (-69.84) So you lose 8km odd optimal on the Neutrons and 12km off the Projectiles, but on both you gain quite a significant bit of tracking (more than an extra 25% in fact). You also gain a lot of powergrid on both alternate setups (nearly 3k on the Neutrons, and nearly 4k on the Projectiles), and you gain near 70 CPU with the projectiles. You lose around 45 CPU using Neutrons, but to put that in perspective, changing from t2 to shadow serpentis hardeners (an extra 20mil to the cost of your ship total) gives you an extra 60 CPU, so not really an issue... However to put the powergrid in to perspective, the Mega Pulse setup can fit an MWD and Cap Booster (not much else), whereas the Neutron setup can put on a large t2 rep on top of that, and the Projectile setup can field a dual rep tank! All that aside, we're talking about close-range fighting here as well... If you want to discuss range, then redo the maths with rails, artilleries, and beams...
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.18 00:24:00 - [97] Originally by: Endaros Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 17/10/2007 17:42:25 Originally by: Endaros Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:27:14 Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:26:45 Interesting facts Why don't you include optimal range in your calculations? Well we're talking about damage and cap use here, mainly the bonuses that the BS have, and comparing those bonuses with each other and how useful those bonuses are... But if you want to talk about optimal range, we should talk about falloff, tracking, and fitting requirements too... Mega Pulse Apoc: Optimal Range: 15,000 + 10,000 Half Damage: 25,000 No Damage: 35,000 Tracking: 0.02109 Powergrid: 19803 CPU: 398.46 Neutron Apoc: Optimal Range: 6,750 (-8,250) + 6,250 (-3,750) Half Damage: 13,000 (-12,000) No Damage: 19,250 (-15,750) Tracking: 0.02706 (+0.00597) Powergrid: 17016.6 (-2786.4) CPU: 445.02 (+46.56) Projectile Apoc: Optimal Range: 3,000 (-12,000) + 10,000 (=) Half Damage: 13,000 (-12,000) No Damage: 23,000 (-12,000) Tracking: 0.027 (+0.00591) Powergrid: 15843 (-3966) CPU: 328.62 (-69.84) So you lose 8km odd optimal on the Neutrons and 12km off the Projectiles, but on both you gain quite a significant bit of tracking (more than an extra 25% in fact). You also gain a lot of powergrid on both alternate setups (nearly 3k on the Neutrons, and nearly 4k on the Projectiles), and you gain near 70 CPU with the projectiles. You lose around 45 CPU using Neutrons, but to put that in perspective, changing from t2 to shadow serpentis hardeners (an extra 20mil to the cost of your ship total) gives you an extra 60 CPU, so not really an issue... However to put the powergrid in to perspective, the Mega Pulse setup can fit an MWD and Cap Booster (not much else), whereas the Neutron setup can put on a large t2 rep on top of that, and the Projectile setup can field a dual rep tank! All that aside, we're talking about close-range fighting here as well... If you want to discuss range, then redo the maths with rails, artilleries, and beams... clap OWNED
Endaros System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.18 11:24:00 - [98] Bumpage! I didn't work my ass off proving that the Apoc is useless to see this topic get lost on page 4... I think we all deserve some input from CCP on the Apoc and Amarr in general...
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.10.18 11:33:00 - [99] Apoc does have a use, its the amarr BS that can actually run beam lasers in fleet without capping out stupidly fast.
Mrski Okupator Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.18 14:13:00 - [100] Originally by: twit brent Apoc does have a use, its the amarr BS that can actually run beam lasers in fleet without capping out stupidly fast. And that is actually the problem, not the solution. ___ Apocalypse Mining. Mine your way to heaven. What playing Amarr feels like. Shamelessly snatched from Almarez.
shinsushi Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:37:00 - [101] Originally by: Mrski Okupator Originally by: twit brent Apoc does have a use, its the amarr BS that can actually run beam lasers in fleet without capping out stupidly fast. And that is actually the problem, not the solution. Exactly. oh and bump. ++++++++++ AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005 Fixing Laser Boats 101
Neo Rainhart Caldari Leela's Lamas	Posted - 2007.10.27 22:42:00 - [102] Dont make the apoc usefull..its ugly and can stay as it is ♥♥♥
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:20:00 - [103] Originally by: Neo Rainhart Dont make the apoc usefull..its ugly and can stay as it is I actually really like how the apoc looks. Especially the one in Trinity II.
Doctor Mario LightHammer MAC	Posted - 2007.10.30 17:26:00 - [104] Originally by: Neo Rainhart Dont make the apoc usefull..its ugly and can stay as it is Nah, the Apoc looks like a huge shark.. I like it :)
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:06:00 - [105] Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari Originally by: Stitcher Here's my idea for a simple, effective way to boost Amarr. Firstly, implement a "racial bonus" on all ships. This is an RP bonus that reflects the ship design's origin. These bonuses are something like as follows: Amarr: 40% reduction in capacitor need of energy turrets. Caldari: 25% reduction in missile launcher CPU requirements Gallente: 10% reduction in hybrid turret CPU and Powergrid requirements. Minmatar: 25% reduction in projectile turret powergrid requirements. (Note: I just made these up on the spot. The actual values would probably need tweaking in the intersts of game fairness) This man speaks wisdom, CCP... Listen to it Indeed. It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:49:00 - [106] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Endaros Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 17/10/2007 17:42:25 Originally by: Endaros Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:27:14 Edited by: Endaros on 17/10/2007 16:26:45 Interesting facts Why don't you include optimal range in your calculations? Well we're talking about damage and cap use here, mainly the bonuses that the BS have, and comparing those bonuses with each other and how useful those bonuses are... But if you want to talk about optimal range, we should talk about falloff, tracking, and fitting requirements too... Mega Pulse Apoc: Optimal Range: 15,000 + 10,000 Half Damage: 25,000 No Damage: 35,000 Tracking: 0.02109 Powergrid: 19803 CPU: 398.46 Neutron Apoc: Optimal Range: 6,750 (-8,250) + 6,250 (-3,750) Half Damage: 13,000 (-12,000) No Damage: 19,250 (-15,750) Tracking: 0.02706 (+0.00597) Powergrid: 17016.6 (-2786.4) CPU: 445.02 (+46.56) Projectile Apoc: Optimal Range: 3,000 (-12,000) + 10,000 (=) Half Damage: 13,000 (-12,000) No Damage: 23,000 (-12,000) Tracking: 0.027 (+0.00591) Powergrid: 15843 (-3966) CPU: 328.62 (-69.84) So you lose 8km odd optimal on the Neutrons and 12km off the Projectiles, but on both you gain quite a significant bit of tracking (more than an extra 25% in fact). You also gain a lot of powergrid on both alternate setups (nearly 3k on the Neutrons, and nearly 4k on the Projectiles), and you gain near 70 CPU with the projectiles. You lose around 45 CPU using Neutrons, but to put that in perspective, changing from t2 to shadow serpentis hardeners (an extra 20mil to the cost of your ship total) gives you an extra 60 CPU, so not really an issue... However to put the powergrid in to perspective, the Mega Pulse setup can fit an MWD and Cap Booster (not much else), whereas the Neutron setup can put on a large t2 rep on top of that, and the Projectile setup can field a dual rep tank! All that aside, we're talking about close-range fighting here as well... If you want to discuss range, then redo the maths with rails, artilleries, and beams... clap OWNED This is old info, a well known, now soemone will say "BUT TACY0NZ D34LZ th# DAmag3!!!" and ignore the cap use and low range, or just point out how good the geddon is. It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Neo Rainhart Caldari Leela's Lamas	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:32:00 - [107] Originally by: Doctor Mario Originally by: Neo Rainhart Dont make the apoc usefull..its ugly and can stay as it is Nah, the Apoc looks like a huge shark.. I like it :) Guess it's a matter of taste ..I just dont get the kicks out of the rear end and the banana like form
gcshgs s'ti	Posted - 2007.10.31 03:35:00 - [108] Originally by: annoing If I had known Amarr was so crap I would have never created this amarr character all those years ago. Cant fight and tank at the same time. Lasers are weak. Cap usage is perversly way out of synch. More armour? Big deal, means nothing if you cant tank it. I fly Ravens now because I can simply run 4 shield hardeners and 7 launchers and NEVER run out of cap when I rat. As for PVP I have to use covert or stealth Aamarr because you cant battle in anything else for fear of cap drain. Never mind, instead of fixing the game and equalising the races, we can walk around stations, order drinks and choose new clothes.. how exciting is that yawn PS: CCP GM's etc never read this stuff, and if they do they give a wry smile and forget it instantly. Developers dont develop, bug hunters dont hunt, customer service ignores customers and we all ignored. Welcome to Eve. hell yeah! I hate this stupid character, wish some one told me amarr sucked so badly, wouldn't have made her. now I wasted 15 mil sp on a race that tickles at best. All I wanted was the Curse and right before I get it, it gets nurfed. wtf, it was the only ship worth a damn.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt	Posted - 2007.10.31 03:53:00 - [109] Originally by: Terianna Eri What about the damage and tracking bonuses on blasters? Uh, tracking bonus on gallente IS to make up for racial weakness. Have you ever compared laser tracking to hybrid tracking? tach = 44% better tracking than 425 rail and that sure as heck isn't due to the ~8.5% optimal advantage the 425 has. Yes, amarr are supposed to have active tanking as a bad idea. They are supposed to be plate tankers. Why do you think where gallente get armor rep amount bonuses, amarr get armor res bonuses? The problem is, not enough amarr ships show a plate tanking advantage. As I've said in other posts, here's what amarr need done: - 20% turret cap usage reduction - move dmg spread 4,3,2 points on L,M,S crystals towards thermal - move 10% of base shield hp to base armor hp - get rid of cap usage and cap capacity bonuses, replace with 5% armor res and 10% armor hp bonuses (with armor hp bonus being used more sparingly) guns now use less cap, do better against hardened armor targets and amarr will be able to plate tank like mother****ers. Cap usage will be a non-issue because there will be no need for armor reps. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.10.31 06:36:00 - [110] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 31/10/2007 06:38:22 Originally by: Letifer Deus Yes, amarr are supposed to have active tanking as a bad idea. They are supposed to be plate tankers. Why do you think where gallente get armor rep amount bonuses, amarr get armor res bonuses? Says you. I hate plate tanking, personally. I always thought that Amarr, the race of infinite ammo and (theoretically) non-infinite-but-very-good capacitor, wouldn't be a race that would have to go back to station for repairs every fight, and that their ships would actually be able to, you know, stay out in space. The "colonization and domination" race's ships having an effective system range of maybe 2-3 jumps doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. I always saw it as gallente get armor rep bonuses because they are armor tankers, but not as good armor tankers as, say, Amarr. If they were intended to be strictly plate tankers - the same way some gallente ships are supposed to be strictly active armor tanked [read - anything with a rep bonus] or some minmatar ships are supposed to be active shield tanked [cyclone, maelstrom, sleipnir, w/e], then yes, maybe they would have an armor bonus. But - big shocker on this one - they don't, except for the Damnation (and really i think CCP was just looking for something interesting and not overdone to do, for that bonus) I will throw numbers at you now - behold: 37.5% bonus to rep amount --> your own armor repairers are 37.5% more efficient (obviously) 25% bonus to armor resistance --> your own armor repairers are 33.3% more efficient, you have 33.3% more effective armor HP, and armor repairers targeted on you are 33.3% more efficient. It's one of the few cases in Amarr where you actually give up raw [something, in this case effective hp/s] for flexibility [!!!] In other words, a Brutix with 2x MAR will rep more effective hp/sec than a Prophecy with 2x MAR (assuming equal fits and skills of course), but a Brutix with 5 armor rep drones on him gets less effective hp/sec than the prophecy. It's not that resistance bonuses point towards plate tanking - it's that they are useful for both armor tanking and plate tanking, and that Amarr ships tend to be plate tanked because 1) they don't generally need to move much anyway (20km range on Heavy Pulse II with Scorch is pretty damn good) 2) they don't have the cap to run armor reps... Your changes would actually make every laser boat save the Abaddon [the only ship that would benefit from this] use more cap. They would use twice as much before, minus 20% of that --> 120.8 = 1.6 or 60% more than they do now. Amarr ships would pretty much become unable to do anything except fire their guns, and lol@active tanking them. They would be a race of basically nothing but nigh-immobile plate-tankers at the battleship/command ship level, and below that... well, who plates up anything smaller than a battlecruiser? I guess there's the 1600mm RT fits... but, really, I wouldn't like that. As for your crusader change? Leave my crusader alone, we don't need 2 4/3/3 interceptors. 4/2/4 is fine; fly the malediction if you want to tackle, as it has less mass (if being a little slower), is suited for short-range weapons, and has 3 mids for mwd/point/web. __________________________________
Linnth	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:15:00 - [111] Oomph - The sound of Amarr getting kicked in the stomach. NEWSFLASH: CCP remove Amarr and lasers from the game. All pilots with any AMARR skillpoints will be deleted on 1st of September (They might as well since CCP nerfed them into extinction
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.31 17:28:00 - [112] Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 31/10/2007 04:09:05 Originally by: Terianna Eri What about the damage and tracking bonuses on blasters? Uh, tracking bonus on gallente IS to make up for racial weakness. Have you ever compared laser tracking to hybrid tracking? tach = 44% better tracking than 425 rail and that sure as heck isn't due to the ~8.5% optimal advantage the 425 has. Yes, amarr are supposed to have active tanking as a bad idea. They are supposed to be plate tankers. Why do you think where gallente get armor rep amount bonuses, amarr get armor res bonuses? The problem is, not enough amarr ships show a plate tanking advantage. As I've said in other posts, here's what amarr need done: - 20% turret cap usage reduction - move dmg spread 4,3,2 points on L,M,S crystals towards thermal - move 10% of base shield hp to base armor hp - get rid of cap usage and cap capacity bonuses, replace with 5% armor res and 10% armor hp bonuses (with armor hp bonus being used more sparingly) - fix some of the stupid slot layouts. lots of lows are nice, but 4-2-4 on crusader and 5-1-5 on reti make them near useless for pvp. these, for example, should be 4-3-3 and 4-2-5. guns now use less cap, do better against hardened armor targets and amarr will be able to plate tank like mother****ers. Cap usage will be a non-issue because there will be no need for armor reps. I came up with another idea: use ROF bonus less. this only compounds the cap usage problem. arma can keep it's rof, but say, omen and zealot should change to dmg bonus. here's a few possible examples of these changes in action: apoc: will have 5% armor res and 10% armor hp bonuses. plate tanked apocs will finally be armor tanked badasses. zealot: will use 10% more cap than it does now, but have 25% armor res bonus instead abbadon: turret cap usage on 8 mega pulse and 8 tach (w/2 HS2) will drop from 52 to 41.6 and 77.9 to 62.3 respectfully reti: with 2 mids will actually be able to have both an ab and cap booster, or ab and disruptor crusader: 3 mids, it will be able to run mwd, scram and web. You should include Fall-off in your range comparisons, or that hybrids track better than Lasers. Shortest range = best tracking and most damage, longest = worst tracking and least damage. This applies to long and short range. ☺☻☺☻☺ SO how do you get me to stop posting? Bump this thread Until devs answer

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