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Suicide ganks need to be dealt with....

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Razen21	Posted - 2007.09.16 20:50:00 - [1] Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 20:51:01 500m of zydrine lost....What is the point of having hi security areas where players can sucicide gank you? Victim: Razen21 Alliance: Elemental Fusion Corp: Black Thorne Corporation Destroyed: Bestower System: Kusomonmon Security: 0.8 Involved parties: Name: Evil M (laid the final blow) Security: -0.4 Alliance: Cult of War Corp: Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Ship: Hurricane Weapon: 425mm AutoCannon I Destroyed items: Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II i spent most of the week getting that 500m worth of zydrine :( if it had gotten destroyed at least i'd have the satisfaction. This is very...frustrating.
Tzt	Posted - 2007.09.16 20:52:00 - [2] eggs/basket. you'll never carry all your stuffs again in a ship that can be suicided by just one other ship yeah :)
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.09.16 20:52:00 - [3] Don't undock. Problem solved. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Darth Pheonix	Posted - 2007.09.16 20:52:00 - [4] Maybe you shouldn't carry around 500mil worth of stuff in your cargohold and you won't get ganked.
JimboSnowstorm	Posted - 2007.09.16 20:55:00 - [5] I was havin discussing wit people about this earlier, I guess it seems like a valid tactic. And teaches us all to be more careful. Certainly annoying though
KeyserSoze	Posted - 2007.09.16 20:58:00 - [6] the actual problem is with ccp, if they tell you ships can get ganked easily in high sec then people wouldnt complain as much. or infact tell all new members that the user guide is OLD and the forum is the real guide to actually know what to do in the game
Razen21	Posted - 2007.09.16 20:59:00 - [7] Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 21:00:59 I understand that this is a expensive lesson learned, annoying no doubt but its crazy that players can get away with this in hi sec space where players should be able to carry goods with peace of mind
Admiral Pelleon Caldari White Shadow Imperium Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.09.16 20:59:00 - [8] Edited by: Admiral Pelleon on 16/09/2007 20:59:59 High security does not mean total security. Don't blame CCP because you don't understand the difference. ________ [-WSI-]
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:00:00 - [9] Edited by: Shevar on 16/09/2007 21:01:25 Don't move 500 million isk in a single bestower run? Originally by: Razen21 I understand that this is a expensive lesson learned, annoying no doubt but its crazy that players can get away with this in hi sec space where players should be able to carry goods with peace of mind No they shouldn't... Concord doesn't prevent pewpew it just responds to it. Working as intended. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:02:00 - [10] Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 16/09/2007 21:02:15 There are no defensive modules in the destroyed items list, Hauler + Valuable cargo + no tank = Asking for it. I do sympathise for your loss but while its not totally your own fault you certainly didn't take any measures towards helping yourself, Fit some defenses next time and you might survive long enough for concord to do their thing.
Admiral Pelleon Caldari White Shadow Imperium Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:03:00 - [11] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 16/09/2007 21:02:15 There are no defensive modules in the destroyed items list, Hauler + Valuable cargo + no tank = Asking for it. I do sympathise for your loss but while its not totally your own fault you certainly didn't take any measures towards helping yourself, Fit some defenses next time and you might survive long enough for concord to do their thing. Exactly, I learned my lesson moving 3 research labs in a badger mkII. Thankfully I had a T2 tank and lasted until concord could pop them. ________ [-WSI-]
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:05:00 - [12] High sec areas are not safe, just safer. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Mysterious Stranger Caldari Enclave Services	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:06:00 - [13] Edited by: Mysterious Stranger on 16/09/2007 21:07:47 Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 20:51:01 500m of zydrine lost....What is the point of having hi security areas where players can sucicide gank you? To be honest, my opinion is penalties that are currently in place for suicide ganking are strong enough as it is. How much did you pay for that Bestower? Have you considered using a more secure ship? Using an escort? Splitting up your cargo? These are all choices you already decided on when you undocked with your cargo filled with Zydrine. PVP exists everywhere in Eve and those that attacked you were still attacked by CONCORD. They simply realized the risk for reward was there and chose to attack. Just because you were in hi-sec does not mean that crime does not exist. It's a harsh lesson to learn but in the end you just need to chalk it up as experience and move on. (Remember you can always load up on guns and get even ) Originally by: Sharkbait please for the love of god read the dam stickies
Lacco	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:07:00 - [14] i liked the lootz.. oh man.. bring some more plz
Razen21	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:09:00 - [15] Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 21:14:52 i paid 10m for the bestower, well i was under the impression, like most new players that hi sec areas are safe. probably know better now. -ps lacco, enjoy it you dirty pirate
Lord Matrix Department of War	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:22:00 - [16] Transport ships (T2 haulers) are good against suicide ganks. One more thing, how did you get 500m of Zydrine in less than a month of your play time? ------------------------------------------------------------------ What good have you done for the EVE community today?
Razen21	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:27:00 - [17] Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 21:28:28 Worked hard hauling stuff around to get some capital, when i did i played the market. i actually made most of that 500m today, had the day off and been trading all day.
DJ P	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 21:14:52 i paid 10m for the bestower, well i was under the impression, 10m?? lol As other people saying above. Nothing changed in EVE since late 2003 where CCP put Concord & sentries :D Before than low sec/0.0 and high sec had the same chaotic zone :D So what you do?? Don't haul all your cargo in one go, don't travel AFK, put tank on your industrial and stay away from Jita.
Xcom Gallente Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:30:00 - [19] He probebly had 500M isk worth of zide. Just a quick question. How well does a occator do against suiciders?
Svavz Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:31:00 - [20] Best quote I ever heard; Concord offers PUNISHMENT, not protection.
Razen21	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:31:00 - [21] Yes, I've learned that now. Someday it'll be pay back
Flaming Lemming Caldari Puppeteer Press	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:37:00 - [22] Originally by: Razen21 Yes, I've learned that now. Someday it'll be pay back At least you have the right attitude..to many people just say "Give me back my stuff or I quit...crycrycry" "Lesson learned" and "Payback"...great way to look at it! No such thing as bad press!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:37:00 - [23] Somebody didn't read the "EVE golden rules"... Originally by: Razen21 Suicide ganks need to be dealt with.... NO, THEY DON'T ! If CCP would have wanted that, they would have made shooting players in highsec impossible. Originally by: Razen21 500m of zydrine lost.... What is the point of having hi security areas where players can sucicide gank you? Reapeat after me... Concord is there as a deterrent, not as a protector. Highsec is SAFER, not safe. Now repeat that 1000 times and you'll start "getting" it. _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Evil M Minmatar Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:41:00 - [24] :(((
tyrol E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:42:00 - [25] not that its relevant, but you know the market well enough to make 500mil in one day, then pay 10mil for a bestower? oh and er, down with the bad guys and such
Stakhanov Katana's Edge	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:44:00 - [26] Go space pervs Originally by: Cipher7 If you manage to get baited, what's your skill, being a good victim?
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:45:00 - [27] "Corp: Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United" clap clap Way to go My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Laura Steel Minmatar Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:46:00 - [28] Originally by: tyrol not that its relevant, but you know the market well enough to make 500mil in one day, then pay 10mil for a bestower? oh and er, down with the bad guys and such It was one of those special Golden Bestowers! And at least you have the right attitute :) ----
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:47:00 - [29] Don't afk haul. Warp to zero is your friend. Originally by: Big Al Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
Razen21	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:48:00 - [30] Hey! I would really LOVE to fly any other ship than this slow golden banana. But I'm still a new player, and I am just finishing up with the advanced learning skills so I cant fly anything else than a bestower.
Calvin Firenze Minmatar Thanos and Killjoy Productions Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:50:00 - [31] I sense a thread nerf. shouldn't this be in C&P? Originally by: CCP Prism X I've said this before and I'll say it again: "I love being a turtle!"
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:52:00 - [32] Originally by: Xcom He probebly had 500M isk worth of zide. Just a quick question. How well does a occator do against suiciders? I gank occators all the time. The only transports I dont bother scanning are impels and mastodons.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:53:00 - [33] Tanking-wise, can't beat the Badger variants. Badger2, Badger2, Badger2, Badger2, Bustard, Badger2, Badger2. And did I mention Badger ? _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Vyyrus An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.16 21:54:00 - [34] Don't autopilot. Carried a lot more in a bestower in high sec.
Zato Ichii	Posted - 2007.09.16 22:05:00 - [35] just a few things, whoever says "bring an escort" is a dumb**. what the hell is an escort gonna do when you are getting suicide ganked? remote rep you? so he's supposed to follow you all around highsec (loads of fun) and lock you everytime you start aligning for warp just in case someone starts shooting at you? sounds like a fun way to play a game whoever says don't fly around with xxx isk in your cargo, tell me how you are supposed to move things from one point to another then? make several round trips? what if you have tens of billions to move? then you're just ****? and when people say "don't fly around with xxxx amount of isk in a t1 hauler" then tell me what do you fly it around in? yes flying hundreds of millions or billions in a t1 hauler is stupid but when even freighters can be suicide ganked in highsec there is a problem.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.16 22:13:00 - [36] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 16/09/2007 22:13:45 Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 20:51:01 500m of zydrine lost....What is the point of having hi security areas where players can sucicide gank you? So they can suicide gank you and pick up your stuff! Why were you hauling 500M worth of stuff in a paper ship?!? Break it up into more trips, basically. And MAX tank your ship with a HP buffer. And then some more. Cargo expander IIs are stupid
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.09.16 22:22:00 - [37] Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 20:51:01 500m of zydrine lost....What is the point of having hi security areas where players can sucicide gank you? Victim: Razen21 Alliance: Elemental Fusion Corp: Black Thorne Corporation Destroyed: Bestower System: Kusomonmon Security: 0.8 Involved parties: Name: Evil M (laid the final blow) Security: -0.4 Alliance: Cult of War Corp: Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Ship: Hurricane Weapon: 425mm AutoCannon I Destroyed items: Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II i spent most of the week getting that 500m worth of zydrine :( if it had gotten destroyed at least i'd have the satisfaction. This is very...frustrating. AAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAinhales HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh god make it stop i cant breathe ------------------------------------------------ ya cant stop the rokh and no i have not nor will i ever contribute anything constructive to your threa
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.09.16 22:24:00 - [38] Originally by: Zato Ichii just a few things, whoever says "bring an escort" is a dumb**. what the hell is an escort gonna do when you are getting suicide ganked? remote rep you? so he's supposed to follow you all around highsec (loads of fun) and lock you everytime you start aligning for warp just in case someone starts shooting at you? sounds like a fun way to play a game yes actualy whoever says don't fly around with xxx isk in your cargo, tell me how you are supposed to move things from one point to another then? make several round trips? what if you have tens of billions to move? then you're just ****? haul it in a bs fitted for hauling (not hard to do) and when people say "don't fly around with xxxx amount of isk in a t1 hauler" then tell me what do you fly it around in? yes flying hundreds of millions or billions in a t1 hauler is stupid but when even freighters can be suicide ganked in highsec there is a problem. again battleship or make multiple trips ------------------------------------------------ ya cant stop the rokh and no i have not nor will i ever contribute anything constructive to your threa
Fujiko MaXjolt	Posted - 2007.09.16 22:56:00 - [39] Edited by: Fujiko MaXjolt on 16/09/2007 22:56:28 Let's see... 500m worth of zydrine = roughly 250k units @ 2k/unit. This takes up 2,500m3 of cargo. You could've fitted this into the cargohold of a Sigil, which is a fast little number, but here's a suggestion for "next time" in your trusty bestower : 1) Don't AFK haul, use warp to zero (it's the best). 2) Fit as many shield extenders as you can. 3) Fill the lows with inertial stabilizers to make you warp faster. This way, you have maximum survivability required for a minimum of time (the time it takes to align to next gate). But, if you're going to do trade on anywhere NEAR a serious level (read, hauling expensive stuffs around), you NEED a T2 hauler (transport ship). BTW, LOVE your attitude, and fly safER next time
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.09.16 22:56:00 - [40] Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 20:51:01 500m of zydrine lost....What is the point of having hi security areas where players can sucicide gank you? Victim: Razen21 Alliance: Elemental Fusion Corp: Black Thorne Corporation Destroyed: Bestower System: Kusomonmon Security: 0.8 Involved parties: Name: Evil M (laid the final blow) Security: -0.4 Alliance: Cult of War Corp: Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Ship: Hurricane Weapon: 425mm AutoCannon I Destroyed items: Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II i spent most of the week getting that 500m worth of zydrine :( if it had gotten destroyed at least i'd have the satisfaction. This is very...frustrating. Train for a Badger II Mammoth or Itty 5 and shield tank it to hell and back with an Invul II and watch you ganker die impotently as Concord WTFPWNBBQ's him with your shields at about 70%.. FFS people if you just put a tank on your indy then you'll live more than long enough to wait for Concord to rescue you.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Zato Ichii	Posted - 2007.09.16 22:57:00 - [41] Originally by: Arvald Edited by: Arvald on 16/09/2007 22:26:56 Edited by: Arvald on 16/09/2007 22:26:24 just a few things, whoever says "bring an escort" is a dumb**. what the hell is an escort gonna do when you are getting suicide ganked? remote rep you? so he's supposed to follow you all around highsec (loads of fun) and lock you everytime you start aligning for warp just in case someone starts shooting at you? sounds like a fun way to play a game yes actualy whoever says don't fly around with xxx isk in your cargo, tell me how you are supposed to move things from one point to another then? make several round trips? what if you have tens of billions to move? then you're just **? haul it in a bs fitted for hauling (not hard to do) and when people say "don't fly around with xxxx amount of isk in a t1 hauler" then tell me what do you fly it around in? yes flying hundreds of millions or billions in a t1 hauler is stupid but when even freighters can be suicide ganked in highsec there is a problem. again battleship or make multiple trips what the is the point of a freighter if, really, you should be using "hauling battleships"? this post is beyond ****. nobody who thinks suicide ganking is fine can agree with what you just said. seriously, what the **. If a freighter can be ganked, why can't a "hauling battleship." not to mention that freighters can hold quite literally, 1000x more than a battleship and, get this, they were MADE for hauling and cost nearly a billion.
KeyserSoze	Posted - 2007.09.16 23:06:00 - [42] again, the guy is a noob, be glad its only 500m.
Allestin Villimar	Posted - 2007.09.16 23:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Train for a Badger II Mammoth or Itty 5 and shield tank it to hell and back with an Invul II and watch you ganker die impotently as Concord WTFPWNBBQ's him with your shields at about 70%.. FFS people if you just put a tank on your indy then you'll live more than long enough to wait for Concord to rescue you.. You ever tried doing that? These ships aren't exactly high on powergrid (meaning no extenders) or natural shields/armor, and even with 75% or better to every resist you're likely to go down in 2-3 volleys from any decent cruiser or BC using medium weapons in industrials.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 00:09:00 - [44] Its really up to CCP. They dont want to fix it. So yeah, gank in high sec, its easy, no risk involved and profit is huge.
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2007.09.17 00:14:00 - [45] I got nothin wrong with high-sec suicide ganks, hell Ive done it myself against macros. But it does seem a bit dumb that you can set up a T1 fitted suicide BC/BS and only lose around 10mil after insurance payout. Im not saying concord losses should be zero insurance cause that would mega screw people who get flag-bugged and stuff, but maybe like a 15% penalty against your insurance payout if concord kills you. So suicide ganks would still be plenty viable for high value targets, but not something to be thrown against random indies and freighters and stuff. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.09.17 00:24:00 - [46] Originally by: Xcom He probebly had 500M isk worth of zide. Just a quick question. How well does a occator do against suiciders? All of the T2 transports tend to do well, but the Occator isn't terribly impressive. It suffers from the same general problem all armor tankers do, which is you have to balance armor mods with other low-slot mods. So you have to balance speed/alignment with tanking and cargo capacity, which means if you're carrying a lot of cargo you have little of the rest. The Caldari transports however benefit from being shield tankers; they don't have quite the cargo capacity and the Bustard in particular only has 3 mid-slots, but that will fit more than enough of a tank. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map: Keeping Down The Clone Business Since 2007AD
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.09.17 00:27:00 - [47] Originally by: Allestin Villimar Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Train for a Badger II Mammoth or Itty 5 and shield tank it to hell and back with an Invul II and watch you ganker die impotently as Concord WTFPWNBBQ's him with your shields at about 70%.. FFS people if you just put a tank on your indy then you'll live more than long enough to wait for Concord to rescue you.. You ever tried doing that? These ships aren't exactly high on powergrid (meaning no extenders) or natural shields/armor, and even with 75% or better to every resist you're likely to go down in 2-3 volleys from any decent cruiser or BC using medium weapons in industrials. I personally use Mammoths with 4 medium extenders an Invul II and a thermal kinetic and em resist rig.. 6000+ shield hp with max skills and near t2 resists.. If you bring enough firepower to overcome that tank then you just went into the red on your bottom line for that particular gank.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.09.17 00:29:00 - [48] Originally by: Allestin Villimar You ever tried doing that? These ships aren't exactly high on powergrid (meaning no extenders) or natural shields/armor, and even with 75% or better to every resist you're likely to go down in 2-3 volleys from any decent cruiser or BC using medium weapons in industrials. Yet, when combined with Warp-to-Zero, best shield tank possible, I-stabs in the lows, and especially a blockade runner... I find that I've generally thrown enough obstacles in the path of the gankers that their attack will fail. Eve Online: the game where paranoia actually pays off.
Price Watcher	Posted - 2007.09.17 00:38:00 - [49] Regular industrials are paper-thin. Train up for a transport and learn to tank it. And don't haul half a billion at one time. FFS, that is really putting temptation in harm's way. POST WITH YOUR ALT! The Shame o' The Galaxy
Shari Vegas Minmatar Ctrl Alt Elites	Posted - 2007.09.17 01:09:00 - [50] I like how you were carrying 500m in Zyd in a completely untaked bestower. Industrials have those mid slots for a reason, clown. Originally by: CCP Wrangler I have no clue.
Shari Vegas Minmatar Ctrl Alt Elites	Posted - 2007.09.17 01:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Razen21 Hey! I would really LOVE to fly any other ship than this slow golden banana. But I'm still a new player And yet you had 500m in Zyd? Originally by: CCP Wrangler I have no clue.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.09.17 01:17:00 - [52] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 17/09/2007 01:18:50 Seriously you don't ever transport that much valuables in a mere industrial fitted for max cargo. I almost wish it was me shooting you for this and that's not looking at the spoils but your actions. Also Known As
Honethite Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.17 01:38:00 - [53] Originally by: Svavz Best quote I ever heard; Concord offers PUNISHMENT, not protection. Quoted ! Nice ! ----- --> Give Eve Online the score it deserves - Eve Online ftw ! <--
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 02:59:00 - [54] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 03:00:49 Originally by: Honethite Originally by: Svavz Best quote I ever heard; Concord offers PUNISHMENT, not protection. Quoted ! Nice ! And what is you lose when you get punished? ISK you paid to insure your ship? Funny really........ Oh wait you lose security status too Hahahaha
Atomos Darksun Kane Enterprises Incorporated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.17 03:38:00 - [55] The best video of eve ever made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTn9EASiPMY BELIEVE the power of the Badger. WISCONSIN FTW! Oh and the ship too...lol
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.09.17 04:25:00 - [56] I have a question for all of you wise eve players giving this guy advice....what is the balance to the suicider? why is it that the hauler needs to not move 500m? why is it that the hauler needs to learn the expensive lessons? Why are people allowed to gank a ship with 500M in a ship worth 4 mill... Why isn;t the suicider not entitled to learn expensive lessons as he sits predictably at a gate scanning ships over and over? Looks we can have some danger and some risk in high sec, that is fine. But it needs to be shared equally. there is no way you should be able to blow up a transport before concords get you when you are running a t1 fitted cruiser that has insurance.... Fix the dam game up there is no reasons haulers should be ABSOLUTE PAPER. you should ne to plug out 100 mill worth of ships to KO a transport in high sec.... Please SOMEONE ANYONE tell me why the suicide ganker is entitled to extreme low risk ganking that is 100% safe meanwhile the transporters are supposed to have their game enhanced with hardcore danger darkness and intensity? I have never been ganked, I do not transport but I'll be damned if it is balanced right now and that peopel can sit around ganking in high sec with no serious financial risk or significant penalities of any sort. Remove insurance, beef up indies ( they got no guns no speed the least they can do is have a decent tank ), and fudge with cargo scanners so they have a chance to give you incorrect results ( better yet make it a mod that can disguise cargo ). Then you can still suicide gank, but you have to put something on the line yourself and you are not assured of the cargo you might receive. you know basic balance and risk that supposedly eve is about.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.09.17 04:26:00 - [57] I gotta say, I'm one of Eve's nicest guys, but I'd be hard-pressed not to suicide gank a Bestower with 500mil in Zyd and no tank. And I've gotta ask: why did you have 3 T2 expanders when you had more than enough room for the cargo without any expanders? You could ferry that much Zyd in 2 trips with an expanded and skilled Exequeror, though a Badger 2 could do it in 1 trip with an awesome tank. I used to get It. Then It changed. Now I don't even know what It is.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.09.17 04:34:00 - [58] Quote: Best quote I ever heard; Concord offers PUNISHMENT, not protection. Hey that is cool and all, but you seriously are not suggesting proper punishments for suiciding is getting insurance paid and allowing your friend or alt to swoop in and pick up the loot are you? Hey why not just do this anytime you attack a player in high sec you just arrive in your stattion with 300 million in your account and skip the rest of the time sink part.....lol some punishment.... hey we are gonna punish you by blowing your ship up for attacking a helpless player that isnt flagged for pvp and in the mean time we will espcort your friend/alt and help them load up the victims 2.7 billion worth of cargo left in the wreck... ya big time punishment FEAR CONCORD....
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2007.09.17 04:54:00 - [59] Originally by: Razen21 Suicide ganks need to be dealt with.... no, sir...people who cry for a nerf because they feel they should be safe all the time....thats what should be dealty with. Dont carry 550m worth of zydrine in your hold anymore. Just because it all fits into your ship, doesnt mean its wise to carry it in one go.
Ather Ialeas Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:01:00 - [60] What a shocking tragedy! -
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:09:00 - [61] Edited by: Erotic Irony on 17/09/2007 06:09:58 Edited by: Erotic Irony on 17/09/2007 06:09:32 transport ships or cry more choose your own adventure edit: not chips but ships ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Hakar Kerarmor Gallente Arctic Productions	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:13:00 - [62] So you can afford 500M worth of minerals, but not a transport ship?
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:14:00 - [63] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 06:15:09 Originally by: Erotic Irony Edited by: Erotic Irony on 17/09/2007 06:09:58 Edited by: Erotic Irony on 17/09/2007 06:09:32 transport ships or cry more choose your own adventure edit: not chips but ships Transport ships can be ganked as any other hauler, so if you are saying get a transport ship and dont worry then you have no clue about high sec suicide ganks. Any ship including freighter can be destroyed in high sec if the loot is worth it.
Pirate Tom	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:19:00 - [64] Originally by: Evil M :((( patpat Poor Evil M.. you lost your ship didn't you. Mean old industrial pilots trying to deny you your means to make a living. sooper sekret piwate handshake You think he would've put an armor plate or shield extender or somethin in if he didn't wanna lose all taht monies.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:20:00 - [65] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 06:15:09 Originally by: Erotic Irony Edited by: Erotic Irony on 17/09/2007 06:09:58 Edited by: Erotic Irony on 17/09/2007 06:09:32 transport ships or cry more choose your own adventure edit: not chips but ships Transport ships can be ganked as any other hauler, so if you are saying get a transport ship and dont worry then you have no clue about high sec suicide ganks. Any ship including freighter can be destroyed in high sec if the loot is worth it. The question isn't what is gankable or not, the question is given your options why choose the inferior one when better options are available? True any ship can be ganked but the agility and native resists of a prowler are a significant step up from anything t1. This game punishes hastiness, overconfidence, sloppy choices and good old ignorance. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:22:00 - [66] The key is to not carry more isk in your cargo hold than it takes to suicide gank you with.. The only reason I'm left alone with big ticket items in my 6000hp Mammoth is because it would take more isk to kill me than they would get.. I could easily carry enough to make it worth the time to eat up its shields with a big enough gank.. But I don't and so can autopilot several trade accounts to thier destination with no issues with gankers.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:24:00 - [67] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 06:15:09 Originally by: Erotic Irony Edited by: Erotic Irony on 17/09/2007 06:09:58 Edited by: Erotic Irony on 17/09/2007 06:09:32 transport ships or cry more choose your own adventure edit: not chips but ships Transport ships can be ganked as any other hauler, so if you are saying get a transport ship and dont worry then you have no clue about high sec suicide ganks. Any ship including freighter can be destroyed in high sec if the loot is worth it. The question isn't what is gankable or not, the question is given your options why choose the inferior one when better options are available? True any ship can be ganked but the agility and native resists of a prowler are a significant step up from anything t1. This game punishes hastiness, overconfidence, sloppy choices and good old ignorance. This game is awarding people that spend the time to play the way it wasnt made to be played. Few examples, exploiting of the static complexes, farming of ISK with cloaking battleships, macro-mining, farming of Cosmos locations for skillbooks and decryptors etc etc. High sec ganking with no risk is just another example.
Pirate Tom	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:28:00 - [68] Edited by: Pirate Tom on 17/09/2007 06:29:22 Originally by: Ridley Scot This game is awarding people that spend the time to play the way it wasnt made to be played. Few examples, exploiting of the static complexes, farming of ISK with cloaking battleships, macro-mining, farming of Cosmos locations for skillbooks and decryptors etc etc. High sec ganking with no risk is just another example. Just how do you figure that no risk part? There's a chance that everything in the ship will be destroyed and there'll be no salvage, leaving ye old ganker with jack and squat. Not to mention they chance that gasp They may have actually taken defensive measures and have more HP than the ganker can get through before CONCORD shows up?!! OH! and as for the way the game was meant to be played? IF you weren't supposed to be able to gank someone in hi-sec, your ship would self destruct as soon as you activated an offensive module against a non-combat target (i.e. war, thief, etc) had to fix some stupid nested quotes thing
Jonathan Peterbilt Caldari Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:29:00 - [69] Edited by: Jonathan Peterbilt on 17/09/2007 06:31:01 Edited by: Jonathan Peterbilt on 17/09/2007 06:30:02 High sec ganking FTW ! Its an easy way to make ISK.
Pirate Tom	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:47:00 - [70] Edited by: Pirate Tom on 17/09/2007 06:48:47 It's only easy if they keep bringin us free lootz with no defenses.. Shhh don't tell them that! PS. 'Hi-sec ganking' is the reason Armoured Cars exist in real life and are used by companies like Wells Fargo to transport currency inside major cities that are normally considered 'safe'...
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:49:00 - [71] Originally by: Pirate Tom Edited by: Pirate Tom on 17/09/2007 06:48:47 It's only easy if they keep bringin us free lootz with no defenses.. Shhh don't tell them that! PS. 'Hi-sec ganking' is the reason Armoured Cars exist in real life and are used by companies like Wells Fargo to transport currency inside major cities that are normally considered 'safe'... Oops.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Postlatta Mouseanon Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.09.17 07:46:00 - [72] I happen to agree that suicide ganks should be made a great deal more expensive to pull off. I've been lucky... or careful.... in that I've never been gate ganked in high sec. But I think the point is that gate ganking is one of those things that can make you vast wealth... and most people avoid doing it simply because of the "dirtines" of it. I've been tempted, but it take little skill. Let's face it, 500,000,000 isk worth of Zydrine seems to me to be a bit of a high reward/risk ratio for the loss of a couple of cruisers. Which is the point. Even the reward of 10,000,000 isk for the loss of a cruiser seems excessive. From a game mechanic standpoint it looks a lot like when newb ships were reprocessable and pilots would repeatedly attack a gate, get the newb ship, and reprocess to get rich on the minerals. I seem to remember it that way years back. Since there's plenty of choke points between low and high sec it would seem to be that the interruption of commerce should be there. I actually live in 0.0- but I personally feel that Concord should be able to insta-pop any ship. Which would resolve the gate ganking tactic. Pulling off a crime in high sec should be dangerous. There's no danger in gate ganking- you lose cruisers... you already scanned your target.... you KNOW what you are giving your cruisers up for. I can't think of anything that is more of a "sure thing" than gate ganking. And from an economic standpoint it leads to inflation because cargo is destroyed (The only gamble the ganker is taking is destruction of cargo Vs. his loss of cruisers [which is nothing]). The loss however for the industrial or freighter pilot is total.... and an absolute. Seems like a broken game mechanic to me.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.09.17 07:50:00 - [73] Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 21:14:52 like most new players Interesting. Not many new players are able to get 500 mill worth of Zyd in just one week. STAND OUT!
Yaggher Xanuben	Posted - 2007.09.17 08:01:00 - [74] Hey. I have been hauling a lot, never got shot before though in high-sec. Anyway. One thing you should use is cargo container. Or more then one of them, lol. Suicide ganks tend to have someone with cargo scanner and they attack those with valuables spotted in cargohold. If you had the zydrine in containers and named those something unimportant like "various", I am almost sure you would have lived the trip. Something I don't know but I guess, if you use secure containers and set a password on them, when you get destroyed and any of the containers should live, you still can't open it without knowing the PW... I THINK so, haven't had experience. So no profit for the gankers. Oh and yes, tank your ship, even if it's empty and in high-sec. :)
Greenwing SuX ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.17 08:22:00 - [75] Edited by: Greenwing on 17/09/2007 08:26:27 Originally by: Pirate Tom Edited by: Pirate Tom on 17/09/2007 06:48:47 It's only easy if they keep bringin us free lootz with no defenses.. Shhh don't tell them that! PS. 'Hi-sec ganking' is the reason Armoured Cars exist in real life and are used by companies like Wells Fargo to transport currency inside major cities that are normally considered 'safe'... To take Eve into your RL example, you now can exactly see what's inside the armoured car, you know it will cost you 10 cars to stop it and get to the money. There's a 50% chance the money will be destroyed and the guy in the 11th car can just take the money and wait for the cops to destroy the other 10 cars without touching him. Yup, great example There is no risk in suicide ganking atm, you know how much on average will drop and thus you know your profit/costs before you start your gank and therefore you can decide wether or not to attack. Originally by: Yaggher Xanuben Hey. I have been hauling a lot, never got shot before though in high-sec. Anyway. One thing you should use is cargo container. Or more then one of them, lol. Suicide ganks tend to have someone with cargo scanner and they attack those with valuables spotted in cargohold. If you had the zydrine in containers and named those something unimportant like "various", I am almost sure you would have lived the trip. Too bad cargo scanners also scan inside containers.... Quote: Something I don't know but I guess, if you use secure containers and set a password on them, when you get destroyed and any of the containers should live, you still can't open it without knowing the PW... I THINK so, haven't had experience. So no profit for the gankers. This doesn't work, the containers can be opened by anybody (personal experience ) . Furthermore even if it would work the containers will not be anchored and therefore can be scooped completely.
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2007.09.17 08:29:00 - [76] Originally by: Svavz Best quote I ever heard; Concord offers PUNISHMENT, not protection. No, CONCORD doesn't offer anything. Suicide gankers get their insurance, so there is no punishment. The risk/reward rule is broken in this case for a long time. Suicide ganking is ok as a strategy, high-sec is safer, not 100% safe. But consequences for attackers need to be more harsh. No insurance payouts, higher security rating hit. Then it still may be worth of attacking new player with 500M worth of cargo, but at least attackers would pay fair price.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 08:35:00 - [77] Originally by: Zato Ichii Originally by: Arvald Edited by: Arvald on 16/09/2007 22:26:56 Edited by: Arvald on 16/09/2007 22:26:24 just a few things, whoever says "bring an escort" is a dumb**. what the hell is an escort gonna do when you are getting suicide ganked? remote rep you? so he's supposed to follow you all around highsec (loads of fun) and lock you everytime you start aligning for warp just in case someone starts shooting at you? sounds like a fun way to play a game yes actualy whoever says don't fly around with xxx isk in your cargo, tell me how you are supposed to move things from one point to another then? make several round trips? what if you have tens of billions to move? then you're just **? haul it in a bs fitted for hauling (not hard to do) and when people say "don't fly around with xxxx amount of isk in a t1 hauler" then tell me what do you fly it around in? yes flying hundreds of millions or billions in a t1 hauler is stupid but when even freighters can be suicide ganked in highsec there is a problem. again battleship or make multiple trips what the is the point of a freighter if, really, you should be using "hauling battleships"? this post is beyond ****. nobody who thinks suicide ganking is fine can agree with what you just said. seriously, what the **. If a freighter can be ganked, why can't a "hauling battleship." not to mention that freighters can hold quite literally, 1000x more than a battleship and, get this, they were MADE for hauling and cost nearly a billion. The point is this: you take the RISK of using a defenceless ship with a large cargo for the REWARD of not having to make several trips. You can reduce the RISK at the cost of losing the REWARD of convenience and/or lower hauler cost. If the OP had used a battleship with cargo expanders, then he could still have probably made the run in one trip, but the gankers would require many more ships to destroy his ship before CONCORD BBQ'd them. Gankers are in it for the money, and the chances are very good that buy the time you have enough gankers to shoot your way through a tanked Rokh (for example) that the cargo won't be worth the effort. Thus his RISK of being suicide-ganked could have been reduced to ~0. You see how it works? You make a similar trade-off between "easy" and "risky" every time you choose between setting your autopilot to "safest" or "shortest". CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Victoria Ehr Twisted Attitude Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:06:00 - [78] Suicide attacks in High Sec, Empire space is a rediculous problem because attackers are taking advantage of a simple loop hole in security put in place by the game. Attackers know what they are doing but most victims don't quite know whats going on. CCP is going to lose money eventually because players are not going to keep putting up with it. Hauling less and making more trips defeats the purpose of large haulers and Empire so that isn't an option. Plus convoys with escorts wont work because of game mechanics, attackers can still target the hauler first, pop it, third part loots it. concord needs more firepower to insta-pop aggressors to stop the use of tanked ships involved in these attacks. Deny them insurance pay if you attack in high sec or slap fines. Or make security penalties stiffer if they attack in high sec. But if CCP lets this go on, i fear many players will leave because not even the tutorial warns them of these kinds of dangers in high sec. High Sec has always been intended to be a safe zone for players not just a safer zone. Each zone from High Sec, Low Sec to .0 has a purpose in the game. If CCP wont solve this problem, then at least change the tutorial to give new players more warning of the dangers in High Sec, that it is not a safe place to move around. Demand answers and inherit lies; Ask questions and inherit truth. Ramileus
Tzt	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:07:00 - [79] suicide the suicide ganks. It's the only way to be sure.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:12:00 - [80] Yup, the clue is not transporting more than it would cost to the gankers. They are completely safe and doing a predictable way of gaining money, for the single only risk they have is Eve players getting a clue and getting smart enough to deprive them of targets. Which won't, ever, happen, since there will always be new players and fools. The other risks (failing mostly, or lag or all cargo destroyed) are just easily avoidable. Last thing, one thing that could be open to discussion is "what is the amount that should be gankable or not?", or "what are transports allowed to transport without unnecessary risks in high sec ?" -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Victoria Ehr Twisted Attitude Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:15:00 - [81] Originally by: Malcanis CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. Concord enforces consequences of breaking empire laws intent on insuring safety of others, just as RL police forces do. It is impossible to provide your own safety if attackers know they can get around the laws and consequences. THAT is why suicide ganking is breaking this game not just Empire space law. Demand answers and inherit lies; Ask questions and inherit truth. Ramileus
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:18:00 - [82] Originally by: Razen21 Destroyed: Bestower There's your problem. Maybe if that line had read Impel people would be more willing to listen. It's your own fault for stocking a first tier industrial so chock full of high value ore.
ArtemisEntreri 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:24:00 - [83] The reason the OP got ganked is that he was either autopiloting or afk at the gate, and do you guys not think that someone should be able to gank someone they really hate and then lose their ship? No risk to suicide gankers... There is risk, what if the loot blows up, what if you don't manage to kill the target, and then if you do you're losing both your ship and security status. Security status takes a long time to grind up.
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:30:00 - [84] Why haul that much Zyd in a tech1 paper thin hauler? Oh and aquick F.Y.I. (argh I hate myself), suicide ganks are dealt with by Concorde, as per the game mechanics for agressin in Empire.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:35:00 - [85] Sucks to be the guy who had to haul off all that zydrine.
Major Death Caldari Space Salvage Incorperated	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:52:00 - [86] Edited by: Major Death on 17/09/2007 09:54:09 I wish I could afford to transport 500Million of anything in a paper bag/T1 hauler. And to the person who said that T2 haulers can be ganked, well yes, but not for profit. And if you notice none of the people who start these threads were flying a tanked T1 hauler, let alone a T2 version. My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was remove for lack of EVE content! ;)
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:52:00 - [87] Originally by: Gaven Blands Sucks to be the guy who had to haul off all that zydrine. Nah, not really. You could move it in a cheap T1 hauler... CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 10:28:00 - [88] "Let's face it, 500,000,000 isk worth of Zydrine seems to me to be a bit of a high reward/risk ratio for the loss of a couple of cruisers. Which is the point. Even the reward of 10,000,000 isk for the loss of a cruiser seems excessive." Duh. Which is exactly why you shouldn't move 500M of Zyd around in a hauler that can be ganked by one or two cruisers. I don't understand why some people cannot understand this basic fact: if you have valuable items that you do not protect, people will take them from you. This is true in EvE; it's true in real life. It may not be true in some other games, but that's precisely why most of are playing EvE and not some other games. Disclaimer: forum-whining is not a form of protection. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
MrBadidea Caldari Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.17 10:41:00 - [89] Yarr --- MrBadidea's ePeen strikes YOUR EGO Wrecking for EMOCIDE
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 10:55:00 - [90] Alright, some of your people just have problem reading dont you? I lost tech 2 transport ship to 2 BCs just as easy as this guy lost his tech 1 hauler. Its just the same, its easy to kill ANY hauler, freighter or any other ship. The only question is, is it worth it, and whats the loot you get in return. It does not matter if you have plates, tank, or whatever, they will just suicide more ships. Its not like they have one ship ready to suicide, they have 2,3,4 ships prepared and ready, and if target is easy to gank they use one ship, if it takes more they use more then one. So dont think you can tank it, outrun it, scout it or defend it. Sooner or later it will be your turn to lose stuff if you haul anything thru high sec. As for the people that say you cant be ganked unless you are afk, I lost my stuff and I wasnt afk. And even if people use auto-pilot, and lose stuff to ganks like this why shouldnt they? Is that what that auto-pilot button is for? Or is that something that shouldnt be in game while high sec gankers are totaly ok? I think not, high sec gankers are not by design and auto-pilot is in game with a reason. And the guy that said take more then one trip I just lol. Lets say I need 30k m3 of something from Jita and I have to take 37 jumps to get there.... You say I should do it 5-6 times and not use transport ship that is in the game for that reason?
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 10:58:00 - [91] Originally by: Malcanis "Let's face it, 500,000,000 isk worth of Zydrine seems to me to be a bit of a high reward/risk ratio for the loss of a couple of cruisers. Which is the point. Even the reward of 10,000,000 isk for the loss of a cruiser seems excessive." Duh. Which is exactly why you shouldn't move 500M of Zyd around in a hauler that can be ganked by one or two cruisers. I don't understand why some people cannot understand this basic fact: if you have valuable items that you do not protect, people will take them from you. This is true in EvE; it's true in real life. It may not be true in some other games, but that's precisely why most of are playing EvE and not some other games. Disclaimer: forum-whining is not a form of protection. No idea where you live, but I live in place with law and order and no1 can take anything from me in real life and not pay the price like end up in jail.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.17 10:59:00 - [92] Everything was working as intended. You were hauling 500 mils worth (lol?) in a t1 hauler, he killed you and got blown up. Instead of expecting others to fix your problems, how about you smarten up. Theres plenty of tools to help you survive and the biggest glaringly stupid thing you did was haul so much in a crappy and slow t1 hauler. At the very least use a t2 hauler with extreme tank/speed/scout/ whatever. Laziness doesn't get rewarded in this game, neither does stupidity Allied forces strike coalition fleet, wrecking for toys thrown out of pram damage ^^
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:01:00 - [93] Originally by: fire 59 Everything was working as intended. You were hauling 500 mils worth (lol?) in a t1 hauler, he killed you and got blown up. Instead of expecting others to fix your problems, how about you smarten up. Theres plenty of tools to help you survive and the biggest glaringly stupid thing you did was haul so much in a crappy and slow t1 hauler. At the very least use a t2 hauler with extreme tank/speed/scout/ whatever. Laziness doesn't get rewarded in this game, neither does stupidity Tell that to BOB alt that lost freighter to TOXIN....
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:17:00 - [94] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:09:51 Originally by: fire 59 Everything was working as intended. You were hauling 500 mils worth (lol?) in a t1 hauler, he killed you and got blown up. Instead of expecting others to fix your problems, how about you smarten up. Theres plenty of tools to help you survive and the biggest glaringly stupid thing you did was haul so much in a crappy and slow t1 hauler. At the very least use a t2 hauler with extreme tank/speed/scout/ whatever. Laziness doesn't get rewarded in this game, neither does stupidity Tell that to BOB alt that lost freighter to TOXIN loaded with billions of BOB stuff.... That's because (similar to you, and everyone else who gets killed in highsec) he was a lazy noob and didn't do anything to prevent himself from getting killed. You CAN NOT kill someone in high sec who is in a T2 hauler and has his wits about him. Hell, you can't even do it in low sec (0.0 has bubbles) without some extreme preperation and difficulty. With a few simple precautions you can get through almost any low sec gatecamp, much less high sec ones. You and the majority of the rest of your crowd that gets killed in high sec die because you were afking along, or were afk at a gate. I kill people in high sec all the time. Why do they die? Because they're afk. Hell, I just killed an occator in .9 sec space today! What does that prove? Nothing except the pilot was a complete idiot and gave us plenty of time to custom tailor our setups to kill his ship. And then sat there and let us do it. It's not my fault he was a moron (he lost over 3/4 bil in ISK). Add that to the Nightmare BPC that I got from another hauler (too bad two Hulks blew up in the process). Anyone wants to buy a nice Nightmare BPC, it's up for sale on contracts for 800m ISK in Jita. It seems I can move high value items around Empire just fine. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Gnau Lavmill Inventek	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:19:00 - [95] First off, eve is a pvp game, empire is not supposed tobe safe only "safer". Second, I have 3 words for you. GIANT SECURE CONTAINERS
Hasak Rain Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:20:00 - [96] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 21:14:52 like most new players Interesting. Not many new players are able to get 500 mill worth of Zyd in just one week. Let alone learn the market to the extent that they can make that much. Not in a week anyway. Something tells me that this is a troll thread and all of the idiots flaming this guy are getting played like a fiddle. I know because I used to make up fake threads like this myself to see how many "holier than thou" forum lifers I could get to chew on it.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:25:00 - [97] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:09:51 Originally by: fire 59 Everything was working as intended. You were hauling 500 mils worth (lol?) in a t1 hauler, he killed you and got blown up. Instead of expecting others to fix your problems, how about you smarten up. Theres plenty of tools to help you survive and the biggest glaringly stupid thing you did was haul so much in a crappy and slow t1 hauler. At the very least use a t2 hauler with extreme tank/speed/scout/ whatever. Laziness doesn't get rewarded in this game, neither does stupidity Tell that to BOB alt that lost freighter to TOXIN loaded with billions of BOB stuff.... That's because (similar to you, and everyone else who gets killed in highsec) he was a lazy noob and didn't do anything to prevent himself from getting killed. You CAN NOT kill someone in high sec who is in a T2 hauler and has his wits about him. Hell, you can't even do it in low sec (0.0 has bubbles) without some extreme preperation and difficulty. With a few simple precautions you can get through almost any low sec gatecamp, much less high sec ones. You and the majority of the rest of your crowd that gets killed in high sec die because you were afking along, or were afk at a gate. I kill people in high sec all the time. Why do they die? Because they're afk. Hell, I just killed an occator in .9 sec space today! What does that prove? Nothing except the pilot was a complete idiot and gave us plenty of time to custom tailor our setups to kill his ship. And then sat there and let us do it. It's not my fault he was a moron (he lost over 3/4 bil in ISK). Add that to the Nightmare BPC that I got from another hauler (too bad two Hulks blew up in the process). Anyone wants to buy a nice Nightmare BPC, it's up for sale on contracts for 800m ISK in Jita. It seems I can move high value items around Empire just fine. Really? So many stupid idiots... like this poor guy http://killboard.black-omega.co.uk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12880 But something like that would never happen to someone like you because you are smart and you know this game.. Please, go grief some mission runners because thats what you do.....
Johnny Gurkha Ramraiders	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:27:00 - [98] My sensor boosted ECM badger used to be fun to fly - cargo space wasn't great but with ECM stabs in low and a solid shield tank I knew I was safe enough in 0.5>, I escaped from a Vagabond using this setup. Happy days being a yellow piwate Ship your valuables in something that can actually defend itself or tank long enough for Concord to pop them and use multiple containers so your valuable cargo has a greater chance of popping if the unthinkable does happen rather than just shoving 500 mills worth in the hold... a bestower with 3 expanders and nothing else is asking for trouble We all learn lessons like this the hard way, I hope you learn from it
Savesti Kyrsst Minmatar White-Noise Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:31:00 - [99] Originally by: Ridley Scot This game is awarding people that spend the time to play the way it wasnt made to be played. Few examples, exploiting of the static complexes, farming of ISK with cloaking battleships, macro-mining, farming of Cosmos locations for skillbooks and decryptors etc etc. High sec ganking with no risk is just another example. Your assumption that AFK piloting through Hisec is the "correct" play style and that suicide ganking is "wrong" is manifestly false. There is ample evidence of that from GM replies, from Dev comments and blogs, and from player reactions in this thread. Most of the above issues have either been addressed or are intended to be addressed "SoonÖ". Suicide ganking has been rebalanced several times but will always be present in the game. You can give yourself some protection by using secure containers to reduce the cargo hold volume needed, and fitting spare lows with istabs, nanos and/or wcs. A full expanded cargohold II fitting is riskier and sometimes that risk doesn't pay off. No doubt some day someone will suicide gank me and I'll feel like crying, but that doesn't mean that it should be changed. Any good argument would have to be based on measurable effects on trade. As far as I can see items are cheap and traders are rich, so that doesn't seem to be happening. ---
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:34:00 - [100] Originally by: Zato Ichii what the ** is the point of a freighter if, really, you should be using "hauling battleships"? this post is beyond ****. nobody who thinks suicide ganking is fine can agree with what you just said. seriously, what the **. If a freighter can be ganked, why can't a "hauling battleship." not to mention that freighters can hold quite literally, 1000x more than a battleship and, get this, they were MADE for hauling and cost nearly a billion. because CCP even said they dont like the idea of the freighters. They put them in to cave to the whines of the carebears....quite your moaning, fit a hauling battlship, and dont AFK haul. End of story.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:41:00 - [101] Originally by: Seeing EyeDog Originally by: Zato Ichii what the ** is the point of a freighter if, really, you should be using "hauling battleships"? this post is beyond ****. nobody who thinks suicide ganking is fine can agree with what you just said. seriously, what the **. If a freighter can be ganked, why can't a "hauling battleship." not to mention that freighters can hold quite literally, 1000x more than a battleship and, get this, they were MADE for hauling and cost nearly a billion. because CCP even said they dont like the idea of the freighters. They put them in to cave to the whines of the carebears....quite your moaning, fit a hauling battlship, and dont AFK haul. End of story. You are right, I will also use warm socks and my lucky shirt when hauling, just in case. You can come up with many, many different things and "smart" ideas just to defend this loophole in the game so people shouldnt use freighters, they should use transport ship (they die anyways), they shouldnt use haulers (who the hell is hauling expensive stuff in tech 1?), they should use cans to hide cargo (I guess thats the purpose by design) and all that just to prevent this one little exploit. Wouldnt it be easier to prevent gankers from exploiting and make sure they dont get the loot when suiciding?
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:42:00 - [102] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Malcanis "Let's face it, 500,000,000 isk worth of Zydrine seems to me to be a bit of a high reward/risk ratio for the loss of a couple of cruisers. Which is the point. Even the reward of 10,000,000 isk for the loss of a cruiser seems excessive." Duh. Which is exactly why you shouldn't move 500M of Zyd around in a hauler that can be ganked by one or two cruisers. I don't understand why some people cannot understand this basic fact: if you have valuable items that you do not protect, people will take them from you. This is true in EvE; it's true in real life. It may not be true in some other games, but that's precisely why most of are playing EvE and not some other games. Disclaimer: forum-whining is not a form of protection. No idea where you live, but I live in place with law and order and no1 can take anything from me in real life and not pay the price like end up in jail. Hahaha, riiiiight. Keep dreaming mate, but you should know quite well what the clear up rate for most property crimes is. And you know what? Even in your lovely little paradise, the police don't stop you being robbed. They only react after the crime has occurred. And you know I bet even your uber-efficient WonderKopsÖ would think you were pretty dumb if you drove round with 30,000 ounces of gold left uncovered in the back of your pickup while you were asleep. and then called in whining when you lost your fortune. Hi-sec is not meant to be safe. You consent to pvP when you click the undock button. EvE is not meant to be a Norman Rockwell picture; it's meant to be dark, greedy, cruel and dangerous. It's right there in the description. The devs have confirmed this with forum posts. You can be a good guy if you want, but virtue and honour have to be fought and paid for. You're also completely free to be a bad guy too. EvE is all about being free to make choices, then living with the consequences of those choices. Untouchable miners or traders are just as unbalanced as untouchable fighters. Mining and trading are PvP just as much as combat is, so the game needs a way for every profession to be vulnerable. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:44:00 - [103] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/09/2007 11:45:55 T1 industrials can actually have a meaty buffer & tank and can actually align in a decent amount of time (if you're not AFK-ing, then all bets are off). You have to train fitting skills & combat skills & navigation skills for this, just like every other pilot. People have ganked frigs, destroyers, cruisers in Iteron Vs Every ship, can, of course, be suicided. Every Hurricane used for ganking means losing about 10M ISK for the attacker (a million up or down depending on Hurricane prices). The loot carried MUST be at least double the price for them to be at a break-even point. If you feel that only one is enough, then don't haul over 20M of loot in your industrial if you want to be safe. If you feel the attackers need two (since you tanked your ship to the max, right?), then 40M of loot is safe. 40M is not a laughing matter for a ship which costs less then a million, and it's not so hard to achieve (you can really put a very decent tank on better models of T1 haulers). Also, if you're not being AFK but are using istabs and warp to zero, you can be much safer, but never completely. I am extremely paranoid whenever transporting my loots from low-sec to high-sec, possibly even more then when I'm pirating. Run the numbers, and fly smart. Concord does set some limitations what is worth to suicide gank and what isn't, and if you want to haul more, then you've got to be extra careful and not AFK.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:48:00 - [104] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:48:08 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Malcanis "Let's face it, 500,000,000 isk worth of Zydrine seems to me to be a bit of a high reward/risk ratio for the loss of a couple of cruisers. Which is the point. Even the reward of 10,000,000 isk for the loss of a cruiser seems excessive." Duh. Which is exactly why you shouldn't move 500M of Zyd around in a hauler that can be ganked by one or two cruisers. I don't understand why some people cannot understand this basic fact: if you have valuable items that you do not protect, people will take them from you. This is true in EvE; it's true in real life. It may not be true in some other games, but that's precisely why most of are playing EvE and not some other games. Disclaimer: forum-whining is not a form of protection. No idea where you live, but I live in place with law and order and no1 can take anything from me in real life and not pay the price like end up in jail. Hahaha, riiiiight. Keep dreaming mate, but you should know quite well what the clear up rate for most property crimes is. And you know what? Even in your lovely little paradise, the police don't stop you being robbed. They only react after the crime has occurred. And you know I bet even your uber-efficient WonderKopsÖ would think you were pretty dumb if you drove round with 30,000 ounces of gold left uncovered in the back of your pickup while you were asleep. and then called in whining when you lost your fortune. Hi-sec is not meant to be safe. You consent to pvP when you click the undock button. EvE is not meant to be a Norman Rockwell picture; it's meant to be dark, greedy, cruel and dangerous. It's right there in the description. The devs have confirmed this with forum posts. You can be a good guy if you want, but virtue and honour have to be fought and paid for. You're also completely free to be a bad guy too. EvE is all about being free to make choices, then living with the consequences of those choices. Untouchable miners or traders are just as unbalanced as untouchable fighters. Mining and trading are PvP just as much as combat is, so the game needs a way for every profession to be vulnerable. Right, thats why after you go rob someone and you lose your ship (car?) you get reimbursed by the insurance company for your lose AFTER you commited a crime
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:50:00 - [105] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:11:12 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:09:51 Originally by: fire 59 Everything was working as intended. You were hauling 500 mils worth (lol?) in a t1 hauler, he killed you and got blown up. Instead of expecting others to fix your problems, how about you smarten up. Theres plenty of tools to help you survive and the biggest glaringly stupid thing you did was haul so much in a crappy and slow t1 hauler. At the very least use a t2 hauler with extreme tank/speed/scout/ whatever. Laziness doesn't get rewarded in this game, neither does stupidity Tell that to BOB alt that lost freighter to TOXIN loaded with billions in tech 2 and moon minerals..... Uh huh. And how many ships did that take? 2 Cruisers? 2 BC? Or was it 40 battleships? See, BoB used a freighter with zillions of hp. That meant that they were invulnerable to suicide ganks by anything less than a 40-man BS gang. That cuts out 99.9% of the gankers. The TOXIN job wasn't a random hi-sec camp, it was a contracted, carefully planned op. Have you ever tried to arrange a 40-man gang to do a suicide gank? You're asking 40 players with very good skills to give up their whole evening to try to kill one ship while definitely losing their own. You think those guys are gonna be interested in a lousy 500M worth of Zyd? LOL! Setting up 2-5 guys is easy. If the OP was moving his Zyd in a tanked, expanded Rokh, those 5 guys wouldn't stand a chance of popping him before they got concorded, especially if was warping to 0Km and not AFKing The BS would be too tough for 98%+ of suicide gank gangs. It could be bought & fitted for 150M and then sold for 90% or more of that on site, or else re-used. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Usarua	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:50:00 - [106] Edited by: Usarua on 17/09/2007 11:53:56 TLDR. or rather too boring cause its the same threads as before. I'll just say that having to tank means you cant use all those pretty nanofiber and inertia modules.. it looks like these are losing their place. also, put a bounty on these gankers and maybe a high sec bounty hunting corp will wardec that gank corp and deal with them. but wait, they're required by game mechanics to gank multiple times before their sec status is low enough for bounties its amusing though, that people work in highsec and at least keep their status 0.0, until such time as they see a huge profit possibility to be made and go after it to quickly fund themselves towards going low/nullsec. kind of a slap in the face to all the first people to go there, who worked harder and had it harder. always what happens to poor trailblazers in the end, its time to update game mechanics, the old ones clearly have loopholes that are being taken advantage of. so my thoughts. just a few ideas. -let any ship destruction be countered with a bounty. -let people transfer kill rights from themselves to another, so its still only one player that has the right, but then someone weak or new, or someone without combat skills could actually GET revenge, by delegating it to a willing highsec anti-pirateer/bounty hunter/wreck looter.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:51:00 - [107] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 17/09/2007 11:52:19 Originally by: Ridley Scot Right, thats why after you go rob someone and you lose your ship (car?) you get reimbursed by the insurance company for your lose AFTER you commited a crime Then balance insurance by actually NOT BEING POPPED BY CONCORD EVERY TIME, since it's obviously not how it works, right? Since the cops are only infallible in EvE? Just stop whining and learn how to fit and fly your industrial. Now, where's the guy with 86 kills in his Iteron V?
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:56:00 - [108] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:48:08 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Malcanis "Let's face it, 500,000,000 isk worth of Zydrine seems to me to be a bit of a high reward/risk ratio for the loss of a couple of cruisers. Which is the point. Even the reward of 10,000,000 isk for the loss of a cruiser seems excessive." Duh. Which is exactly why you shouldn't move 500M of Zyd around in a hauler that can be ganked by one or two cruisers. I don't understand why some people cannot understand this basic fact: if you have valuable items that you do not protect, people will take them from you. This is true in EvE; it's true in real life. It may not be true in some other games, but that's precisely why most of are playing EvE and not some other games. Disclaimer: forum-whining is not a form of protection. No idea where you live, but I live in place with law and order and no1 can take anything from me in real life and not pay the price like end up in jail. Hahaha, riiiiight. Keep dreaming mate, but you should know quite well what the clear up rate for most property crimes is. And you know what? Even in your lovely little paradise, the police don't stop you being robbed. They only react after the crime has occurred. And you know I bet even your uber-efficient WonderKopsÖ would think you were pretty dumb if you drove round with 30,000 ounces of gold left uncovered in the back of your pickup while you were asleep. and then called in whining when you lost your fortune. Hi-sec is not meant to be safe. You consent to pvP when you click the undock button. EvE is not meant to be a Norman Rockwell picture; it's meant to be dark, greedy, cruel and dangerous. It's right there in the description. The devs have confirmed this with forum posts. You can be a good guy if you want, but virtue and honour have to be fought and paid for. You're also completely free to be a bad guy too. EvE is all about being free to make choices, then living with the consequences of those choices. Untouchable miners or traders are just as unbalanced as untouchable fighters. Mining and trading are PvP just as much as combat is, so the game needs a way for every profession to be vulnerable. Right, thats why after you go rob someone and you lose your ship (car?) you get reimbursed by the insurance company for your lose AFTER you commited a crime Riiiight, and in real life, you can pay a single 30% premium and get over 100% of the replacement price back even if you blow up your own ship, and never face higher premiums no matter how often you lose a ship. Oh and in the real world, even if your car gets stolen they never send a risk assessor around to ask questions like "So you left nearly two tons of gold uncovered in your pickup while you went to sleep at the wheel? And you're expecting us to pay you a thin dime?" EvE "insurance" is nothing to do with real-world concepts of insurance. If you like, think of it as a mineral salvage contract where you pay some guys to salvage and sell the minerals from your wreck for you. That would be much closer to the way EvE "insurance" works. I wish to God CCP would rename it so that fools like you don't confuse it with IRL insurance. No company would last a day insuring ships in EvE. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
LMAAAOOOO	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:56:00 - [109] Originally by: Usarua Edited by: Usarua on 17/09/2007 11:53:56 TLDR. or rather too boring cause its the same threads as before. I'll just say that having to tank means you cant use all those pretty nanofiber and inertia modules.. it looks like these are losing their place. also, put a bounty on these gankers and maybe a high sec bounty hunting corp will wardec that gank corp and deal with them. but wait, they're required by game mechanics to gank multiple times before their sec status is low enough for bounties its amusing though, that people work in highsec and at least keep their status 0.0, until such time as they see a huge profit possibility to be made and go after it to quickly fund themselves towards going low/nullsec. kind of a slap in the face to all the first people to go there, who worked harder and had it harder. always what happens to poor trailblazers in the end, its time to update game mechanics, the old ones clearly have loopholes that are being taken advantage of. so my thoughts. just a few ideas. -let any ship destruction be countered with a bounty. -let people transfer kill rights from themselves to another, so its still only one player that has the right, but then someone weak or new, or someone without combat skills could actually GET revenge, by delegating it to a willing highsec anti-pirateer/bounty hunter/wreck looter. The bounty system is screwed, you are just wasting your own isk if you put a bounty on some one to be honest, and also, shield HP tank is usually best for haulers, not armor tanking, since plates makes you align slower _______________________________________________
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:58:00 - [110] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:58:23 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:48:08 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Malcanis "Let's face it, 500,000,000 isk worth of Zydrine seems to me to be a bit of a high reward/risk ratio for the loss of a couple of cruisers. Which is the point. Even the reward of 10,000,000 isk for the loss of a cruiser seems excessive." Duh. Which is exactly why you shouldn't move 500M of Zyd around in a hauler that can be ganked by one or two cruisers. I don't understand why some people cannot understand this basic fact: if you have valuable items that you do not protect, people will take them from you. This is true in EvE; it's true in real life. It may not be true in some other games, but that's precisely why most of are playing EvE and not some other games. Disclaimer: forum-whining is not a form of protection. No idea where you live, but I live in place with law and order and no1 can take anything from me in real life and not pay the price like end up in jail. Hahaha, riiiiight. Keep dreaming mate, but you should know quite well what the clear up rate for most property crimes is. And you know what? Even in your lovely little paradise, the police don't stop you being robbed. They only react after the crime has occurred. And you know I bet even your uber-efficient WonderKopsÖ would think you were pretty dumb if you drove round with 30,000 ounces of gold left uncovered in the back of your pickup while you were asleep. and then called in whining when you lost your fortune. Hi-sec is not meant to be safe. You consent to pvP when you click the undock button. EvE is not meant to be a Norman Rockwell picture; it's meant to be dark, greedy, cruel and dangerous. It's right there in the description. The devs have confirmed this with forum posts. You can be a good guy if you want, but virtue and honour have to be fought and paid for. You're also completely free to be a bad guy too. EvE is all about being free to make choices, then living with the consequences of those choices. Untouchable miners or traders are just as unbalanced as untouchable fighters. Mining and trading are PvP just as much as combat is, so the game needs a way for every profession to be vulnerable. Right, thats why after you go rob someone and you lose your ship (car?) you get reimbursed by the insurance company for your lose AFTER you commited a crime Riiiight, and in real life, you can pay a single 30% premium and get over 100% of the replacement price back even if you blow up your own ship, and never face higher premiums no matter how often you lose a ship. Oh and in the real world, even if your car gets stolen they never send a risk assessor around to ask questions like "So you left nearly two tons of gold uncovered in your pickup while you went to sleep at the wheel? And you're expecting us to pay you a thin dime?" EvE "insurance" is nothing to do with real-world concepts of insurance. If you like, think of it as a mineral salvage contract where you pay some guys to salvage and sell the minerals from your wreck for you. That would be much closer to the way EvE "insurance" works. I wish to God CCP would rename it so that fools like you don't confuse it with IRL insurance. No company would last a day insuring ships in EvE. Funny coz you are the one who started comparing with RL, not me.
Protheroe	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:59:00 - [111] Originally by: Gnau Lavmill First off, eve is a pvp game, empire is not supposed tobe safe only "safer". Second, I have 3 words for you. GIANT SECURE CONTAINERS Can the contents of containers be scanned whilst they're in a ship's carghold?
Vrabac Amarr BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.09.17 12:00:00 - [112] This isn't supposed to be a sandbox for you to play with your zydrine. I got my hauler alt suicide ganked recently, was on AP loaded with t2 and few faction items. I just had to go afk, couldnt help it, so I took my chances. Came back- pod. I felt real bad, mostly because that shadow serpentis mwd survived, but props to the guy who did it- killmail indicated very clean work with hurricane and 720mm artillery, I bet it was a nice afla strike on the poor sigil. This of course doesn't mean I wouldn't still strangle him if I saw him on the street, but I'd do it knowing he only did what I would do as well, so it's ok. In other words, high security means high security, not immunity. Live with it, it's not something that happens all the time, but everything in eve is a risk and that's good imho.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 12:00:00 - [113] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:58:23 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:48:08 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Malcanis "Let's face it, 500,000,000 isk worth of Zydrine seems to me to be a bit of a high reward/risk ratio for the loss of a couple of cruisers. Which is the point. Even the reward of 10,000,000 isk for the loss of a cruiser seems excessive." Duh. Which is exactly why you shouldn't move 500M of Zyd around in a hauler that can be ganked by one or two cruisers. I don't understand why some people cannot understand this basic fact: if you have valuable items that you do not protect, people will take them from you. This is true in EvE; it's true in real life. It may not be true in some other games, but that's precisely why most of are playing EvE and not some other games. Disclaimer: forum-whining is not a form of protection. No idea where you live, but I live in place with law and order and no1 can take anything from me in real life and not pay the price like end up in jail. Hahaha, riiiiight. Keep dreaming mate, but you should know quite well what the clear up rate for most property crimes is. And you know what? Even in your lovely little paradise, the police don't stop you being robbed. They only react after the crime has occurred. And you know I bet even your uber-efficient WonderKopsÖ would think you were pretty dumb if you drove round with 30,000 ounces of gold left uncovered in the back of your pickup while you were asleep. and then called in whining when you lost your fortune. Hi-sec is not meant to be safe. You consent to pvP when you click the undock button. EvE is not meant to be a Norman Rockwell picture; it's meant to be dark, greedy, cruel and dangerous. It's right there in the description. The devs have confirmed this with forum posts. You can be a good guy if you want, but virtue and honour have to be fought and paid for. You're also completely free to be a bad guy too. EvE is all about being free to make choices, then living with the consequences of those choices. Untouchable miners or traders are just as unbalanced as untouchable fighters. Mining and trading are PvP just as much as combat is, so the game needs a way for every profession to be vulnerable. Right, thats why after you go rob someone and you lose your ship (car?) you get reimbursed by the insurance company for your lose AFTER you commited a crime Riiiight, and in real life, you can pay a single 30% premium and get over 100% of the replacement price back even if you blow up your own ship, and never face higher premiums no matter how often you lose a ship. Oh and in the real world, even if your car gets stolen they never send a risk assessor around to ask questions like "So you left nearly two tons of gold uncovered in your pickup while you went to sleep at the wheel? And you're expecting us to pay you a thin dime?" EvE "insurance" is nothing to do with real-world concepts of insurance. If you like, think of it as a mineral salvage contract where you pay some guys to salvage and sell the minerals from your wreck for you. That would be much closer to the way EvE "insurance" works. I wish to God CCP would rename it so that fools like you don't confuse it with IRL insurance. No company would last a day insuring ships in EvE. Funny coz you are the one who started comparing with RL, not me. I'm done arguing with you. Carry on getting AFK ganked and then whining about it if you like. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.17 12:06:00 - [114] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:11:12 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 11:09:51 Originally by: fire 59 Everything was working as intended. You were hauling 500 mils worth (lol?) in a t1 hauler, he killed you and got blown up. Instead of expecting others to fix your problems, how about you smarten up. Theres plenty of tools to help you survive and the biggest glaringly stupid thing you did was haul so much in a crappy and slow t1 hauler. At the very least use a t2 hauler with extreme tank/speed/scout/ whatever. Laziness doesn't get rewarded in this game, neither does stupidity Tell that to BOB alt that lost freighter to TOXIN loaded with billions in tech 2 and moon minerals..... Awesome counter argument. It rewards the smart and punishes the dumb. It is really that simple Allied forces strike coalition fleet, wrecking for toys thrown out of pram damage ^^
34534bobalt3244	Posted - 2007.09.17 12:11:00 - [115] This is a dumb thread. It is a troll thread. Everyone taking it seriously is funny.
ForceM Gallente POS Builder Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.17 12:27:00 - [116] Originally by: 34534bobalt3244 This is a dumb thread. It is a troll thread. Everyone taking it seriously is funny. More like everyone reading your post wasted time. ----- Quote: Dun kill me eris coming to fanfest by any chance? eris GULP
Greenwing SuX ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.17 12:55:00 - [117] Edited by: Greenwing on 17/09/2007 13:02:38 Originally by: Protheroe Originally by: Gnau Lavmill First off, eve is a pvp game, empire is not supposed tobe safe only "safer". Second, I have 3 words for you. GIANT SECURE CONTAINERS Can the contents of containers be scanned whilst they're in a ship's carghold? Yup, tried it a few days ago when i read in some other high-sec ganking thread this tactic did work again. Too bad it doesn't because it would solve most if not all of the high-sec ganking problems. It would bring back the risk in high--sec ganking because you can never know if the hauler/shuttle/freighter is full of valuables or just empty. Oh and as stated before, using secure containers with a pasword doesn't work either. They can be opened (without pasword) or scooped by any-one. The problem is not the risk-reward of the one being ganked, it's about the risk-reward of the gankers. They can calculate in front wether suicide ganks will be profitable or not and that's the problem. Killing any ship in high-sec should be possible but not at a calculated loss/profit.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.09.17 13:20:00 - [118] Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 20:51:01 500m of zydrine lost....What is the point of having hi security areas where players can sucicide gank you? Victim: Razen21 Alliance: Elemental Fusion Corp: Black Thorne Corporation Destroyed: Bestower System: Kusomonmon Security: 0.8 Involved parties: Name: Evil M (laid the final blow) Security: -0.4 Alliance: Cult of War Corp: Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Ship: Hurricane Weapon: 425mm AutoCannon I Destroyed items: Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II i spent most of the week getting that 500m worth of zydrine :( if it had gotten destroyed at least i'd have the satisfaction. This is very...frustrating. High sec is safer not safe. Don't carry that much stuff in a ship that can't defend itself even slightly. You have no defenses whatsoever on that ship, therefore you deserve to lose it. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not.
Greenwing SuX ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.17 13:31:00 - [119] Originally by: Xaen High sec is safer not safe. Don't carry that much stuff in a ship that can't defend itself even slightly. You have no defenses whatsoever on that ship, therefore you deserve to lose it. Very true, though even if he would have carried it in a fully tanked T2 hauler, gankers would be able to kill him with a calculated profit.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.09.17 14:29:00 - [120] welcome to eve...oh and next time use a TRANSPORT SHIP. you know the T2 UBER HAULER THATS CAN ACTUALLY TANK THINGS. "If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein A blog of truth (not mine)
Amaron Ghant Caldari b00's Crew	Posted - 2007.09.17 14:45:00 - [121] Suicide ganking in hi sec is a pain, and until (if) CCP remove insurance payouts for ships destroyed by concorde it will remain a pain. It's not right, it's not wrong, it just is. Don't afk when transporting expensive gear dont transport expensive stuff in ships with the tankability of wet lettuce.
Maxpie Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.09.17 14:47:00 - [122] I have no problem with suicide ganking, but there really MUST be 2 changes to make it fair and make the game better. No more alts. 1 character per account No insurance on ships, at all. Nobody would insure ships that get blown up as frequently as player ships do. He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.17 14:50:00 - [123] Tank your ship, warp to zero, problem solved. Originally by: consider telos ..then we had a fight and he was so dead and then I like became champion of eve and then ccp gave me a medal and a t-shirt and asked me to go out with him on a date to mcD'
Greenwing SuX ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.17 14:54:00 - [124] Edited by: Greenwing on 17/09/2007 14:54:26 Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Tank your ship, warp to zero, problem solved. Too bad this doesn't work, tank means just some more gankers (same for a T2 hauler). Warp to zero still leaves you with warping away from the gate. Both don't counter the real problem.
Postlatta Mouseanon Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.09.17 15:51:00 - [125] Originally by: Malcanis "Let's face it, 500,000,000 isk worth of Zydrine seems to me to be a bit of a high reward/risk ratio for the loss of a couple of cruisers. Which is the point. Even the reward of 10,000,000 isk for the loss of a cruiser seems excessive." Duh. Which is exactly why you shouldn't move 500M of Zyd around in a hauler that can be ganked by one or two cruisers. I don't understand why some people cannot understand this basic fact: if you have valuable items that you do not protect, people will take them from you. This is true in EvE; it's true in real life. It may not be true in some other games, but that's precisely why most of are playing EvE and not some other games. Disclaimer: forum-whining is not a form of protection. Look Porgy, Just because you want an excuse to get rich quick doesn't mean the rest of us will backoff reality. You accuse me of whining? I've never lost a transport ship. Rather I think you are whining because your sad skills would only allow you to gank at a high sec gate. It makes me sick to think we are in the same alliance.
Jak Silverheart Minmatar	Posted - 2007.09.17 15:56:00 - [126] Originally by: Greenwing Edited by: Greenwing on 17/09/2007 14:54:26 Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Tank your ship, warp to zero, problem solved. Too bad this doesn't work, tank means just some more gankers (same for a T2 hauler). Warp to zero still leaves you with warping away from the gate. Both don't counter the real problem. Staying docked is the 100% safe way to go about it. But I doubt you want that answer, so heres another. Fly something with a real tank that will take alot of enimies to take down, perfect example, when im done missioning and lets say i have a couple hundred million worth of salvage I need to get rid of, I don't jump in my hauler and say lets go. I jump in my Drake and set it up so it has better resists and HP buffer to stand up to anything till concord arrives. And even if they did try to gank me, they would need SEVERAL battleships to pop me before concord arrives. Originally by: Scordite Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi?
Barbelo Valentinian Gallente Shadowcaster Corporation	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:06:00 - [127] Originally by: Pirate Tom Edited by: Pirate Tom on 17/09/2007 06:48:47 It's only easy if they keep bringin us free lootz with no defenses.. Shhh don't tell them that! PS. 'Hi-sec ganking' is the reason Armoured Cars exist in real life and are used by companies like Wells Fargo to transport currency inside major cities that are normally considered 'safe'... Yes and the hijacking of armoured cars is in "safe" cities is .... ? Comparatively rare.
Postlatta Mouseanon Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:13:00 - [128] Originally by: Jak Silverheart Originally by: Greenwing Edited by: Greenwing on 17/09/2007 14:54:26 Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Tank your ship, warp to zero, problem solved. Too bad this doesn't work, tank means just some more gankers (same for a T2 hauler). Warp to zero still leaves you with warping away from the gate. Both don't counter the real problem. Staying docked is the 100% safe way to go about it. But I doubt you want that answer, so heres another. Fly something with a real tank that will take alot of enimies to take down, perfect example, when im done missioning and lets say i have a couple hundred million worth of salvage I need to get rid of, I don't jump in my hauler and say lets go. I jump in my Drake and set it up so it has better resists and HP buffer to stand up to anything till concord arrives. And even if they did try to gank me, they would need SEVERAL battleships to pop me before concord arrives. For the love of GOD....my head really hurts. If what you are saying is true, I have to ask why people have Industrial and Freighter skills? I mean seriously, you are saying that to protect my goods, in high sec, I should use considerably less cargo space- in fact a tanked BS. What the heck are the industrials for? I get it.... target practice. Sorry Porgy- Gate ganking is a low sec payoff (BIG PAYOFF) for high sec loss (SMALL LOSS). but it's a low sec payoff (BIG LOSS) for the owner of the indy. It's a broken mechanic no matter how you frame it.
Postlatta Mouseanon Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:17:00 - [129] Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Originally by: Pirate Tom Edited by: Pirate Tom on 17/09/2007 06:48:47 It's only easy if they keep bringin us free lootz with no defenses.. Shhh don't tell them that! PS. 'Hi-sec ganking' is the reason Armoured Cars exist in real life and are used by companies like Wells Fargo to transport currency inside major cities that are normally considered 'safe'... Yes and the hijacking of armoured cars is in "safe" cities is .... ? Comparatively rare. Sounds good to me.... give me my armored car T3 hauler. That was a good point... let's say on the extreme there are 100 haulers gate ganked in EVE on a weekend. There arent 100 armored car robberies in the world in a YEAR. Oh... right- reality.
LovelyRita Metermaid	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:18:00 - [130] It's simple, really, and clearly it needs to be for some of you to get it... Should High Sec ganking be possible? Yes, absolutely Should it be as easy as it is now? No, not even close Should the risk-reward equation be considered, like everything in Eve? Yes Is the current risk-reward equation balanced? No So, CCP, fix it. It's broken. Rita
Myra2007	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:22:00 - [131] Well just two things to add. 1) Despite what some people here seem to think a hurricane is not a cruiser. Don't try to exaggerate if you are arguing a point. It will come and bite you at some point. 2) Furthermore some quotes from the player guide(they are posted in every thread like this). Some people never read it but still claim there was no indication of possible dangers in hisec. Please take notice: Don't expect CONCORD to keep you immune to attacks or ship losses. Like in the real world, law enforcers often arrive too late at the scene of the crime, and even though they able to punish the criminal, they can't always prevent the crime. Don't play the game in AFK mode. This game is not designed with this kind of playing style in mind and you should NEVER consider your ship and character safe while being away from your computer. The last part is important to some people who obviously think afking is the way to go. Quite the opposite as you can see.
LovelyRita Metermaid	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:37:00 - [132] Originally by: Postlatta Mouseanon Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Originally by: Pirate Tom Edited by: Pirate Tom on 17/09/2007 06:48:47 It's only easy if they keep bringin us free lootz with no defenses.. Shhh don't tell them that! PS. 'Hi-sec ganking' is the reason Armoured Cars exist in real life and are used by companies like Wells Fargo to transport currency inside major cities that are normally considered 'safe'... Yes and the hijacking of armoured cars is in "safe" cities is .... ? Comparatively rare. Sounds good to me.... give me my armored car T3 hauler. That was a good point... let's say on the extreme there are 100 haulers gate ganked in EVE on a weekend. There arent 100 armored car robberies in the world in a YEAR. Oh... right- reality. Besides, we aren't talking about armored cars here, are we. We are talking about freight hauling trucks, in downtown New York, that the criminals can see inside to determine what the cargo might be, who then get caught by the police but get to keep the loot anyway, and who are back on the street in 5 minutes to do the same thing again. I know that comparing to "reality" is a slippery slope, but..??? Rita
Barbelo Valentinian Gallente Shadowcaster Corporation	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:55:00 - [133] Originally by: Postlatta Mouseanon Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Originally by: Pirate Tom Edited by: Pirate Tom on 17/09/2007 06:48:47 It's only easy if they keep bringin us free lootz with no defenses.. Shhh don't tell them that! PS. 'Hi-sec ganking' is the reason Armoured Cars exist in real life and are used by companies like Wells Fargo to transport currency inside major cities that are normally considered 'safe'... Yes and the hijacking of armoured cars is in "safe" cities is .... ? Comparatively rare. Sounds good to me.... give me my armored car T3 hauler. That was a good point... let's say on the extreme there are 100 haulers gate ganked in EVE on a weekend. There arent 100 armored car robberies in the world in a YEAR. Oh... right- reality. dons flame ****ant bikini Well I don't know, are there? If you took all big cities in the Western capitalist democracies (as opposed to, say, tinpot dictatorships and banana republics), how frequent are armoured car heists? And what would that look like scaled up to galaxy-size? At the moment, speaking as a newbie, I think the game is fun, but a bit ridiculous if it's meant to represent or model, in a game-realistic sort of way, either security systems or piracy. It's built around a certain PvP mechanic that lengthens the time people play (because they have to buy the ship again, buy the gear again, which keeps them in the game longer and keeps the economy turning round, etc. etc.). It's not meant either maliciously or as some sort of mini-Darwinian lesson for soft fluffy people ("that'll larn ya"!), it's just a money spinning mechanism for ccp. "Pirates" in the game, far from really modelling eeeevil rebels in any sort of immersive way, are simply the humble servants of ccp. Money is easily made and easily lost in this game. That makes for fun for us, and money for ccp. But somehow, it's a bit disappointing and annoying from the point of view of immersion. Once I realised this was the mechanic (after a few days) the game sort of lost its initial magic, its super-specialness it had in those first few days. It became just another game to me. This mechanic makes it "just an MMO after all", instead of what it seems to promise when you first start playing it (until you're ganked for the first time): a sort of immersive dream of a science fiction universe where you have total freedom, possible (but not inevitable) danger, etc. I think this is really what people who cry about being ganked are really complaining about, the loss of that dream of immersion, and I can definitely sympathise with that, even though I've reconciled myself to the game as it is. IMHO, looking at this from the outside coming in, as a newbie, it seems to me that the simple fact of the matter is that ccp have to balance **ing off newcomers with satisfying the old-timer PvP gankers who actually help keep the game going from ccp's point of view. If the newcomers get too ed off too quickly, they'll just leave; if ganking is too difficult, the old lags will ** and moan
Greenwing SuX ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:02:00 - [134] Originally by: Myra2007 Well just two things to add. 1) Despite what some people here seem to think a hurricane is not a cruiser. Don't try to exaggerate if you are arguing a point. It will come and bite you at some point. 2) Furthermore some quotes from the player guide(they are posted in every thread like this). Some people never read it but still claim there was no indication of possible dangers in hisec. Please take notice: Don't expect CONCORD to keep you immune to attacks or ship losses. Like in the real world, law enforcers often arrive too late at the scene of the crime, and even though they able to punish the criminal, they can't always prevent the crime. Don't play the game in AFK mode. This game is not designed with this kind of playing style in mind and you should NEVER consider your ship and character safe while being away from your computer. The last part is important to some people who obviously think afking is the way to go. Quite the opposite as you can see. It's not about being safe, it's about risk-reward which is way out of balance. Gankers should be able to kill any ship they see. They should not make billions out of it without any risk.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:03:00 - [135] Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Originally by: Postlatta Mouseanon Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Originally by: Pirate Tom Edited by: Pirate Tom on 17/09/2007 06:48:47 It's only easy if they keep bringin us free lootz with no defenses.. Shhh don't tell them that! PS. 'Hi-sec ganking' is the reason Armoured Cars exist in real life and are used by companies like Wells Fargo to transport currency inside major cities that are normally considered 'safe'... Yes and the hijacking of armoured cars is in "safe" cities is .... ? Comparatively rare. Sounds good to me.... give me my armored car T3 hauler. That was a good point... let's say on the extreme there are 100 haulers gate ganked in EVE on a weekend. There arent 100 armored car robberies in the world in a YEAR. Oh... right- reality. dons flame ****ant bikini Well I don't know, are there? If you took all big cities in the Western capitalist democracies (as opposed to, say, tinpot dictatorships and banana republics), how frequent are armoured car heists? And what would that look like scaled up to galaxy-size? At the moment, speaking as a newbie, I think the game is fun, but a bit ridiculous if it's meant to represent or model, in a game-realistic sort of way, either security systems or piracy. It's built around a certain PvP mechanic that lengthens the time people play (because they have to buy the ship again, buy the gear again, which keeps them in the game longer and keeps the economy turning round, etc. etc.). It's not meant either maliciously or as some sort of mini-Darwinian lesson for soft fluffy people ("that'll larn ya"!), it's just a money spinning mechanism for ccp. "Pirates" in the game, far from really modelling eeeevil rebels in any sort of immersive way, are simply the humble servants of ccp. Money is easily made and easily lost in this game. That makes for fun for us, and money for ccp. But somehow, it's a bit disappointing and annoying from the point of view of immersion. Once I realised this was the mechanic (after a few days) the game sort of lost its initial magic, its super-specialness it had in those first few days. It became just another game to me. This mechanic makes it "just an MMO after all", instead of what it seems to promise when you first start playing it (until you're ganked for the first time): a sort of immersive dream of a science fiction universe where you have total freedom, possible (but not inevitable) danger, etc. I think this is really what people who cry about being ganked are really complaining about, the loss of that dream of immersion, and I can definitely sympathise with that, even though I've reconciled myself to the game as it is. IMHO, looking at this from the outside coming in, as a newbie, it seems to me that the simple fact of the matter is that ccp have to balance **ing off newcomers with satisfying the old-timer PvP gankers who actually help keep the game going from ccp's point of view. If the newcomers get too ed off too quickly, they'll just leave; if ganking is too difficult, the old lags will ** and moan I'm not sure what you're saying here. It sounds like that finding out that you couldn't make ISK safely ruined the immersion for you? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Shari Vegas Minmatar Ctrl Alt Elites	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:06:00 - [136] If you can't protect your own assets, up to and including hauling around everything you own at once, don't expect CCP to do it for you. Originally by: CCP Wrangler I have no clue.
Karash Amerius Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:08:00 - [137] This topic should be stickied for transport sale merchants :) Ex-Merc Blog
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:42:00 - [138] I gank newb ships with frigates and t2 drones.
Barbelo Valentinian Gallente Shadowcaster Corporation	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:20:00 - [139] Edited by: Barbelo Valentinian on 17/09/2007 18:23:50 Originally by: Malcanis I'm not sure what you're saying here. It sounds like that finding out that you couldn't make ISK safely ruined the immersion for you? Well, that I couldn't move my pile of hard-earned bits and bobs safely from one station to another in high security space ruined the immersion for me; my realisation that ganking newbies in high security space was actually quite a common practice sort of ruined the immersion for me (yes, I have "escape pods destroyed in the past hour" checked). It didn't ruin the game for me (in the sense of the gamey side of the game, if you know what I mean), but it changed the way I viewed the game. Initially I was totally immersed, totally in awe and really thought EVE was something super-special. Now it's just - a good game. The mechanics of what gankers and "pirates" are doing is just too obvious, I see through "pirates" and just see some old timers having a laugh. That ruins the immersion factor (for me), it pulls the game back down to earth, spoils the illusion of infinite space; it even spoils the illusion that "pirates" are actually any danger. I think this dichotomy between "virtual world" and "game" is in every MMO. What some people want out of MMOs is more of a virtual world, an immersive otherworld, somewhere to escape to; what others want it a good game with a decent challenge in the game mechanic. Of course neither can be completely absent (there has to be an immersive element otherwise you might just be doing maths on a calculator, and there has to be a gaming element otherwise there are no little jolts of pleasure or pain from "success" or "failure"), but I think people do vary in their expectation or preference for one side over the other. I guess I just thought EVE was more towards the immersive side at first, and was a bit disappointed when the game mechanics broke through the illusion too much. I think there's a vast horde of "carebears" out there who would flock to an MMO that had the balance more to the immersive side, especially a space MMO. Sadly, that game is not EVE, which is another kind of beast, and is what it is. But I've adjusted and I'm perfectly happy to keep paying my subscription so NO, you can't have my stuff (erm, not that I've got much )
Audio Bully	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:43:00 - [140] said a million times, dont haul afk, simple
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:44:00 - [141] Ah, so you think suicide ganking is a kind of exploit, that they're gaming the rules? And that level of metagaming snaps you back to the other side of the screen, as it were. Well I dunno man, I can see what you're saying. But the metagaming suicide-gankers are caused by the presence of metagaming instantwtfpwnBBQ concord ships. I'm not sure what to suggest as an alternative. If Concord manifested a little more realistically, the gankers' tactics might differ and you'd be back in your pod, so to speak. What if the concord ships took a "realistic" length of time to appear, and weren't quite so uberpwn (perhaps appearing gradually, first 1-4 frigates/ceptors, then heavier ships if the threat persisted), such that pirates had a small but real chance to escape... but the criminal aggro lasted for hours or even days. So someone commiting a Concordable crime would be forced to flee to lo-sec and stay there a while - with all that entails. They wouldn't be able to dock with their ill-gotten gains, so they'd have to risk being ganked in their turn - let the punishment fit the crime, as it were. (You might have to add a mechanic where anyone collecting a jetcan from a fugitive gets tagged as an accessory). That way, Concord would be less game-breaking, and they really would inflict consequences, so gankers would have to make sure that their gank was definitely worth it, because they wouldn't be able to come back for hours or days, and have their getaway to lo-sec planned out. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
10of12	Posted - 2007.09.17 19:04:00 - [142] Originally by: Audio Bully said a million times, dont haul afk, simple You will just as easily be killed if your not afk...... Please post some real solutions
KeyserSoze	Posted - 2007.09.17 19:11:00 - [143] Originally by: Malcanis "Let's face it, 500,000,000 isk worth of Zydrine seems to me to be a bit of a high reward/risk ratio for the loss of a couple of cruisers. Which is the point. Even the reward of 10,000,000 isk for the loss of a cruiser seems excessive." Duh. Which is exactly why you shouldn't move 500M of Zyd around in a hauler that can be ganked by one or two cruisers. I don't understand why some people cannot understand this basic fact: if you have valuable items that you do not protect, people will take them from you. This is true in EvE; it's true in real life. It may not be true in some other games, but that's precisely why most of are playing EvE and not some other games. Disclaimer: forum-whining is not a form of protection. i agree with this, but how would a noob who doesnt read the forum know this? see what im saying? to play this game you need to tell people the forums are required reading material to learn how the game works.
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.09.17 19:12:00 - [144] As most people in this thread have said, hisec does not mean you are immune to ganks. You need to take precautions to secure your assets like that. However, that does not change the fact that suicide ganking is lamer than lame. This will not deter people from doing it, though. Personally I think ship insurance should be voided if Concord is on the killmail. ### I nearly finish carriers, and they nerf it. I nearly finish Amarr recons, and they make them useless. Vagabond pilots beware... I have bought Minmatar Cruiser.
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.17 19:20:00 - [145] I have had the luxury of passing through several suicide gates this weekend. All I could was laugh as I was targeted repeatedly. I was only carrying Ore. If I was carrying that much Zydrine I would have had a couple of escorts with me and using an Impel instead of a Bestower. I was doing afk hauling for the most part but when I got to certain systems I would wtz to cover my butt. The only time I lost my ship was in 0.2 space. I had 8K of kernite on board. I couldn't align and warp fast enough. I know we all have gotten lazy with AFK flying in hi-sec. If you see something bad to a WTZ and as soon as you start to come out of warp jump. When you get to the next system tell everybody in that system about the camp. Truck drivers used to use this thing back on the planet Earth called a CB to warn others of bears and ladies showing their unmentionables. We have a similar system called "local" use it. This way it will give everyone a chance to wtz and bypass the threat. If Concord can't drop their donuts fast enough to help then we have to help each other. "The History of every major Galactic Civilization tends to pass through three distinct and recognizable phases, those of Survival, Inquiry and Sophistication, otherwise known as the How, Why and Where
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 19:21:00 - [146] Originally by: Maxpie I have no problem with suicide ganking, but there really MUST be 2 changes to make it fair and make the game better. No more alts. 1 character per account No insurance on ships, at all. Nobody would insure ships that get blown up as frequently as player ships do. Your suggestions would stop suicide ganks all right. They'd also stop anyone undocking a T1 ship. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.17 19:30:00 - [147] Edited by: JamnOne on 17/09/2007 19:30:40 Originally by: Greenwing Originally by: Xaen High sec is safer not safe. Don't carry that much stuff in a ship that can't defend itself even slightly. You have no defenses whatsoever on that ship, therefore you deserve to lose it. Very true, though even if he would have carried it in a fully tanked T2 hauler, gankers would be able to kill him with a calculated profit. Even though they get a profit I wonder if they would still do it if they didn't get the insurance for committing an illegal act? _____________________________________________________ "The History of every major Galactic Civilization tends to pass through three distinct and recognizable phases, those of Survival, Inquiry and Sophistication, otherwise known as the How, Why and Where
Chattia Kand	Posted - 2007.09.17 19:32:00 - [148] I have read most of these types of threads and I can honestly say all go round and round in discussion. The carebears (of which I am proud to be one) dont like the idea that one man can throw away a ship without any real cost to them and gain the contents of the hauler. The pirates agrue that no where should be safe, and that any ship properly flown and fitted is not at risk. Now this is were I confuse people. Both are right and both are wrong. Let me explain. The simple fact is that there is no way to prevent a determine attacker from attacking you, even in High sec. The only solution is to survive the situation and run and hide. There is no way to escort a ship in eve at the minute. No body guards. There is only hard to kill ships (T2 transporters). The solutions have been discussed everything from stronger Concorde to no payout for insurance. None of these will work, as new technics will be developed to counter them. My mates are all agreement that these gankers need a good mashing. But this is short term. I would love to see a real discussion of possible counters for transporters not just the tough luck dudes answers. I have a few ideas... you never know.
Space Jane	Posted - 2007.09.17 19:46:00 - [149] Hello all hauler friends. I have been reading this debate for a while and I know how to prevent highsec ganking! Put your stuff in a secure can and set a password so they cant get your stuff! Also the pirates will see that your valuables are in cans, and they will not even want to shoot you. Also if a pirate trys to lock you, you should always log off. Then your hauler will warp off to a safe! EASY AND SIMPLE, ENJOY ty- Space Jane
Rylet VanDorn The Clearwater Society Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.09.17 20:05:00 - [150] #1) If you have 500 million isk worth of goods, you should be able to afford a deep space transport or blockade runner that will either have the resists and health to withstand a suicide gank, or aligns and moves fast enough that it won't be caught. #2) Insurance shouldn't pay out to self-destructs or Concord kills. The fact that it does is asinine.
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.09.17 20:25:00 - [151] Originally by: Space Jane Hello all hauler friends. I have been reading this debate for a while and I know how to prevent highsec ganking! Put your stuff in a secure can and set a password so they cant get your stuff! Also the pirates will see that your valuables are in cans, and they will not even want to shoot you. Also if a pirate trys to lock you, you should always log off. Then your hauler will warp off to a safe! EASY AND SIMPLE, ENJOY ty- Space Jane You can also try to jettison your cargo. Then if they kill you they can not find the loot in your wreck and they will leave without any loot !
Barbelo Valentinian Gallente Shadowcaster Corporation	Posted - 2007.09.17 20:39:00 - [152] Originally by: Malcanis Ah, so you think suicide ganking is a kind of exploit, that they're gaming the rules? And that level of metagaming snaps you back to the other side of the screen, as it were. Well I dunno man, I can see what you're saying. But the metagaming suicide-gankers are caused by the presence of metagaming instantwtfpwnBBQ concord ships. I'm not sure what to suggest as an alternative. If Concord manifested a little more realistically, the gankers' tactics might differ and you'd be back in your pod, so to speak. What if the concord ships took a "realistic" length of time to appear, and weren't quite so uberpwn (perhaps appearing gradually, first 1-4 frigates/ceptors, then heavier ships if the threat persisted), such that pirates had a small but real chance to escape... but the criminal aggro lasted for hours or even days. So someone commiting a Concordable crime would be forced to flee to lo-sec and stay there a while - with all that entails. They wouldn't be able to dock with their ill-gotten gains, so they'd have to risk being ganked in their turn - let the punishment fit the crime, as it were. (You might have to add a mechanic where anyone collecting a jetcan from a fugitive gets tagged as an accessory). That way, Concord would be less game-breaking, and they really would inflict consequences, so gankers would have to make sure that their gank was definitely worth it, because they wouldn't be able to come back for hours or days, and have their getaway to lo-sec planned out. Yeah that sounds like a good idea! Something needs to be done, for sure. It's fair enough that even high sec should not be absolutely safe, but whether because of the exploitable mechanic you mention or some other aspect (insurance for pirates? seems a bit ridiculous, unless it's a separate, shady insurance that doesn't pay out very well, perhaps), it's too unsafe as it stands. However, as I said, it's really up to ccp from their point of view - from their point of view they're balancing "**ed off carebear newbies leaving game" against "**ed off hard nosed vets unable to exploit the game mechanic anymore leaving game", so I don't know where they'd find the balance. They have the stats so they'll know from their point of view what's desirable. I'm just saying that from my personal point of view, the way it is is only just barely tolerable from the immersion aspect (one tolerates it because so much of the rest of the game is so brilliantly put together and addictive, but one would prefer it otherwise).
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 20:45:00 - [153] Originally by: JamnOne Edited by: JamnOne on 17/09/2007 19:27:08 I have had the luxury of passing through several suicide gates this weekend. All I could was laugh as I was targeted repeatedly. I was only carrying Ore. If I was carrying that much Zydrine I would have had a couple of escorts with me and using an Impel instead of a Bestower. I was doing afk hauling for the most part but when I got to certain systems I would wtz to cover my butt. The only time I lost my ship was in 0.2 space. I had 8K of kernite on board. I couldn't align and warp fast enough. I know we all have gotten lazy with AFK flying in hi-sec. If you see something bad to a WTZ and as soon as you start to come out of warp jump. When you get to the next system tell everybody in that system about the camp. Truck drivers used to use this thing back on the planet Earth called a CB to warn others of bears and ladies showing their unmentionables. We have a similar system called "local" use it. This way it will give everyone a chance to wtz and bypass the threat. If Concord can't drop their donuts fast enough to help then we have to help each other. _______________________________________________________ You passed thru just because your cargo was worthless, worth less then ship they use to gank your hauler. They scanned your ship and didnt attack it, yet another example,there is no risk when ganking in high sec.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 20:47:00 - [154] Originally by: Space Jane Hello all hauler friends. I have been reading this debate for a while and I know how to prevent highsec ganking! Put your stuff in a secure can and set a password so they cant get your stuff! Also the pirates will see that your valuables are in cans, and they will not even want to shoot you. Also if a pirate trys to lock you, you should always log off. Then your hauler will warp off to a safe! EASY AND SIMPLE, ENJOY ty- Space Jane Read the thread, it doesnt work.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.17 20:51:00 - [155] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 17/09/2007 20:55:08 Originally by: Rylet VanDorn #1) If you have 500 million isk worth of goods, you should be able to afford a deep space transport or blockade runner that will either have the resists and health to withstand a suicide gank, or aligns and moves fast enough that it won't be caught. #2) Insurance shouldn't pay out to self-destructs or Concord kills. The fact that it does is asinine. Read the thread, transport ship die as easy as haulers so it doesnt help using tech 2. They just have to use 2 ganking ships instead of 1, result is the same, they get insurance and they get the loot. Even if you use freighter to transport, result would be the same, they will use 40 ships, insurance will pay for the lost ships and they again get the loot. The only question is how much is the loot worth? There is really 3 things wrong with the high sec ganking mechanics: 1.To be able to scan the ship before attacking 2.Get the insurance payout for suiciding the ship 3.Use an alt to collect the loot CCP, change one of the 3 and high sec suicide ganking will stop.
Acacia Everto Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 21:34:00 - [156] Next time you want to move 500m of Zydrine in a Bestower, let the Wings of Redemption know.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 21:34:00 - [157] Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Originally by: Malcanis I'm not sure what to suggest as an alternative. If Concord manifested a little more realistically, the gankers' tactics might differ and you'd be back in your pod, so to speak. What if the concord ships took a "realistic" length of time to appear, and weren't quite so uberpwn (perhaps appearing gradually, first 1-4 frigates/ceptors, then heavier ships if the threat persisted), such that pirates had a small but real chance to escape... but the criminal aggro lasted for hours or even days. So someone commiting a Concordable crime would be forced to flee to lo-sec and stay there a while - with all that entails. They wouldn't be able to dock with their ill-gotten gains, so they'd have to risk being ganked in their turn - let the punishment fit the crime, as it were. (You might have to add a mechanic where anyone collecting a jetcan from a fugitive gets tagged as an accessory). That way, Concord would be less game-breaking, and they really would inflict consequences, so gankers would have to make sure that their gank was definitely worth it, because they wouldn't be able to come back for hours or days, and have their getaway to lo-sec planned out. Yeah that sounds like a good idea! Something needs to be done, for sure. It's fair enough that even high sec should not be absolutely safe, but whether because of the exploitable mechanic you mention or some other aspect (insurance for pirates? seems a bit ridiculous, unless it's a separate, shady insurance that doesn't pay out very well, perhaps), it's too unsafe as it stands. However, as I said, it's really up to ccp from their point of view - from their point of view they're balancing "**ed off carebear newbies leaving game" against "*ed off hard nosed vets unable to exploit the game mechanic anymore leaving game", so I don't know where they'd find the balance. They have the stats so they'll know from their point of view what's desirable. I'm just saying that from my personal point of view, the way it is is only just barely tolerable from the immersion aspect (one tolerates it because so much of the rest of the game is so brilliantly put together and addictive, but one would prefer it otherwise). I'm glad you liked my off the cuff idea. I should say that I have never been suicide-ganked, nor have I ever ganked anyone. However, as you have probably gathered, I'm strongly in favour of the possibility* of ganking. I find Concord's current incarnation as immersion-killing as you find suicide ganking. I really don't like the <i>deus ex machina </i>way they work. In fact how about this refinement: I'd rather hi-sec jump gates require you to offline and unload your weapons before letting you through, ditto undocking from hi-sec stations. Let anyone in the grid get a message like the wrap-scrambling one; "so-and-so has onlined a combat weapon system". Anyone approaching a station or gate with an onlined weapon system will immediately attract faction police and sentry gun aggro proportional to the security of the system. But there should be a finite number of faction drones in the system, to allow clever players to set up ambushes on specific targets (we've all seen movies like this, right?). Concord don't get involved until a pod pilot illicitly loses his ship, and then in the staged, gradual way cited above. This should provide very good protection for alert players (it takes quite a while to online a full rack of weapons) and make it very difficult to profit by just ganking random haulers, but allow a clever, well-organised gang to commit a sensational crime, with the possibility of an exciting getaway. Of course, mission-runners wanting kill missions wont find much in such safe space, but remember guys: there're no dictors in lo-sec! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2007.09.17 22:07:00 - [158] much as i hate pirates and gate campers, you where moving high value items in a tech 1 indy. its like driving bags of money through South Central LA in a toyota.
Benvie	Posted - 2007.09.17 22:36:00 - [159] I think a lot of people have made the same good point in this thread. Having the ability to gank is fine. The risk vs. reward is way skewed though in favor of the gankers due to insurance. Very little risk with very big reward. It doesn't even make any sense though. Why should insurance pay for you dying due to your own illegal actions? I know it's a game and it doesn't necessarily need to follow reality, but that's just dumb and really makes absolutely no sense.
Usarua	Posted - 2007.09.18 04:44:00 - [160] Originally by: Greenwing Edited by: Greenwing on 17/09/2007 13:32:16 Originally by: Protheroe Originally by: Gnau Lavmill First off, eve is a pvp game, empire is not supposed tobe safe only "safer". Second, I have 3 words for you. GIANT SECURE CONTAINERS Can the contents of containers be scanned whilst they're in a ship's carghold? Yup, tried it a few days ago when i read in some other high-sec ganking thread this tactic did work again. Too bad it doesn't because it would solve most if not all of the high-sec ganking problems. It would bring back the risk in high--sec ganking because you can never know if the hauler/shuttle/freighter is full of valuables or just empty. Oh and as stated before, using secure containers with a pasword doesn't work either. They can be opened (without using the pasword) or scooped by any-one. The problem is not the risk-reward of the one being ganked, it's about the risk-reward of the gankers. They can calculate in front wether suicide ganks will be profitable or not and that's the problem. Killing any ship in high-sec should be possible but not at a calculated loss/profit. although, technically, what ganker is going to be set to scoop 750,000m3 of a secured container?
Usarua	Posted - 2007.09.18 04:53:00 - [161] Originally by: LovelyRita Metermaid Originally by: Postlatta Mouseanon Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Originally by: Pirate Tom Edited by: Pirate Tom on 17/09/2007 06:48:47 It's only easy if they keep bringin us free lootz with no defenses.. Shhh don't tell them that! PS. 'Hi-sec ganking' is the reason Armoured Cars exist in real life and are used by companies like Wells Fargo to transport currency inside major cities that are normally considered 'safe'... Yes and the hijacking of armoured cars is in "safe" cities is .... ? Comparatively rare. Sounds good to me.... give me my armored car T3 hauler. That was a good point... let's say on the extreme there are 100 haulers gate ganked in EVE on a weekend. There arent 100 armored car robberies in the world in a YEAR. Oh... right- reality. Besides, we aren't talking about armored cars here, are we. We are talking about freight hauling trucks, in downtown New York, that the criminals can see inside to determine what the cargo might be, who then get caught by the police but get to keep the loot anyway, and who are back on the street in 5 minutes to do the same thing again. I know that comparing to "reality" is a slippery slope, but..??? Rita normally, people dont try to hijack a freight truck in the middle of broad daylight in a heavily populated area, either. for all those people trying to support the highsec gank with real life comparions, you cant possibly make it look good and reasonable. on the truck routes, there's 0 chance, because whos going to spend 10 years in prison to try to knock over a truck in front of 100s of witnesses and in a main road patrolled by police? the real problem is that the reward far outweighs the loss. so its low risk. in real life doing anything like this comes with years and years of jailtime, which means doing nothing but sitting in confinement. not the same at all.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.09.18 04:55:00 - [162] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker much as i hate pirates and gate campers, you where moving high value items in a tech 1 indy. its like driving bags of money through South Central LA in a toyota. Uuh, you calling us pirates? I'm biggest carebear there is ffs! Concord offers PUNISHMENT, not protection
Jack Jombardo	Posted - 2007.09.18 05:13:00 - [163] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 18/09/2007 05:15:07 Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 18/09/2007 05:14:48 first: the attacker get's no refound if killed from CONCORD! second: if killed from CONCORD the attacker can't dock for 3 houres! third: the attacker can't pick up from wrecks/cans for 1 day if killed from CONCORD! does this destroyes highsec piracy? maybe does this kills the pirates fun? I don't care about THERE fun as they don't care about there victims fun! may they get bored becouse of this? not my problem as they don't care about feelings of there victims! as every singel of this pirates mentioned: "learn from it! if you do that you'll have to live with the results".
Greenwing SuX ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.18 05:22:00 - [164] Originally by: Usarua Originally by: Greenwing Edited by: Greenwing on 17/09/2007 13:32:16 Originally by: Protheroe Originally by: Gnau Lavmill First off, eve is a pvp game, empire is not supposed tobe safe only "safer". Second, I have 3 words for you. GIANT SECURE CONTAINERS Can the contents of containers be scanned whilst they're in a ship's carghold? Yup, tried it a few days ago when i read in some other high-sec ganking thread this tactic did work again. Too bad it doesn't because it would solve most if not all of the high-sec ganking problems. It would bring back the risk in high--sec ganking because you can never know if the hauler/shuttle/freighter is full of valuables or just empty. Oh and as stated before, using secure containers with a pasword doesn't work either. They can be opened (without using the pasword) or scooped by any-one. The problem is not the risk-reward of the one being ganked, it's about the risk-reward of the gankers. They can calculate in front wether suicide ganks will be profitable or not and that's the problem. Killing any ship in high-sec should be possible but not at a calculated loss/profit. although, technically, what ganker is going to be set to scoop 750,000m3 of a secured container? The ganker that's set-up to kill a freighter ? They can also just open the container and take the good loot from it.
AngryMax Gallente Shadow Crew	Posted - 2007.09.18 05:26:00 - [165] You carry all that in a T1 industrial? Come on...
Ladyah Liandri A GmbH	Posted - 2007.09.18 05:40:00 - [166] Did a couple of suicide ganks myself. And got ganked due to own stupidity as well. I don't see anything terribly wrong with suicide ganks per se. The only issue maybe is insurance. If you initiated a sanctioned attack in hi-sec and lose a ship to Concord it would sound reasonable to me if you'd get at least a drastically reduced pay-out.
10of12	Posted - 2007.09.18 05:50:00 - [167] Originally by: Ladyah Liandri If you initiated a sanctioned attack in hi-sec and lose a ship to Concord it would sound reasonable to me if you'd get at least a drastically reduced pay-out. The main problem with this is noobs doing something wrong (smartbomb ? ;-) ) and not getting any insurance payout and, become broke and quit the game. This will not solve the problem of a ganker being able to calculate before the attack if it will be profitable or not.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.18 09:27:00 - [168] " Originally by: Malcanis This should provide very good protection for alert players (it takes quite a while to online a full rack of weapons) and make it very difficult to profit by just ganking random haulers, but allow a clever, well-organised gang to commit a sensational crime, with the possibility of an exciting getaway. Of course, mission-runners wanting kill missions wont find much in such safe space, but remember guys: there're no dictors in lo-sec! So the gankers need a logistics ship to be able to online there guns within a few minutes. Then they can choose any target, kill it and if they are set-up properly the ganker will not even loose his ship ? I like different ideas, but yours is way too easy to work around it." I would like to think a reasonably alert player wouldn't not hang around for "a couple of minutes" while this occurred. I did think of logistics ships, but they don't help enough unless you have a LOT of them (1-12 per gank ship, depending on type: re-capping a battleship from 30->95% 5-7 times takes a LOT of cap). Anything which increases the size of the gang required to do the gank decreases the likelihood of encountering the gang, and increases the value of the target required to make the operation profitable. You can online your weapons away from the gate and warp in, of course, but that immediately attracts police aggro - thus giving our freighter-pilot's scout a chance to see that something is amiss and avoid the camp. You could have some tanked up drakes "pull" the police away so that when your main gang warps in they get a window of opportunity to not have to fight them, but again, the alert scout has a chance to notice something is wrong. And then consider that in order to flee with their gains, they will have to offline all their weapons again. They can't dock at a hi-sec station; they have to get out of hi-sec while being blinky-red and with Concord chasing them all the way to lo-sec. And they'd better have friends in lo-sec as well, because they have to re-online all their weapons. The only places it is relatively "safe" to do ganks are the systems with a lo-sec gate - the border towns, as it were. Just like in teh cowboy films!!!1 Remember, my idea was not to make it impossible to do ganks or profit by them, but to make it so that you have to carefully plan and execute an operation for a specific target. The only way to protect an AFKer in a paper-thin hauler is to simply ban PvP in hi-sec altogether, which is the point where I stop trying to think up ideas and link to the WoW signup page. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Barbelo Valentinian Gallente Shadowcaster Corporation	Posted - 2007.09.18 09:47:00 - [169] Originally by: Malcanis Remember, my idea was not to make it impossible to do ganks or profit by them, but to make it so that you have to carefully plan and execute an operation for a specific target. The only way to protect an AFKer in a paper-thin hauler is to simply ban PvP in hi-sec altogether, which is the point where I stop trying to think up ideas and link to the WoW signup page. Yeah, if you think of real life heists, they usually take a lot of observation and planning (well, not that I've ever participated in any, but from what I've read about it). They're not easy. So the game should model that, model the difficulty and rarity (not impossibility) of pulling off daring escapades in high sec space. I think you're right that to keep the "final frontier" or "wild west" vibe of EVE, PvP has to be always possible everywhere, but the penalties and difficulties have to be right so as not to make a mockery of the concept of "high security", and so the skull of game mechanic doesn't peep in an ugly way through the beauty of the illusion.
Ozzie Kime	Posted - 2007.09.18 10:55:00 - [170] The ability to gank should not be dealt with.. if its possible to do then you should be able to do it without it being taken as an exploit. However.. Im missing the logic that says the authorities would just leave your property floating in space after dealing with the gankers. They would surely transport it to the nearest CONCORD station.
Liam Fremen Gallente Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.09.18 11:23:00 - [171] Just tank ur ship m8... and you will be fine on most case, if you haul 500m worth of stuff they can't kill ya in 5 or they lose money :) Otherwise, transport ship: Mastodon. 7k Shield, all resistance over 65-70, slow but wtf kill it beafore concord wtfpwn ya. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Check me out! I'm so badass that i scare off myself!
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.18 11:58:00 - [172] Originally by: Barbelo Valentinian Originally by: Malcanis Remember, my idea was not to make it impossible to do ganks or profit by them, but to make it so that you have to carefully plan and execute an operation for a specific target. The only way to protect an AFKer in a paper-thin hauler is to simply ban PvP in hi-sec altogether, which is the point where I stop trying to think up ideas and link to the WoW signup page. Yeah, if you think of real life heists, they usually take a lot of observation and planning (well, not that I've ever participated in any, but from what I've read about it). They're not easy. So the game should model that, model the difficulty and rarity (not impossibility) of pulling off daring escapades in high sec space. I think you're right that to keep the "final frontier" or "wild west" vibe of EVE, PvP has to be always possible everywhere, but the penalties and difficulties have to be right so as not to make a mockery of the concept of "high security", and so the skull of game mechanic doesn't peep in an ugly way through the beauty of the illusion. Well I think my idea is pretty faithful to the "Wild west" vibe. I lot of people seem to have the idea that hi-sec should be "Gated community" safe, whereas I think it should only be "Ghetto" safe - generally quiet, but you can for sure get mugged! Even Empire EvE is supposed to be dark and cold. (Lo-sec would be "Baghdad" safe and 0.0 would be, I dunno, "Somalia" safe) I'm sure someone will poke holes in it, but right now I'm pretty pleased with it. I want the game to be fun, not just have play-styles banned. I do many things in EvE; mining, missioning, ratting, POS-soldiering, pir- uh, I mean "aggressive salvaging", raiding. I've never tried hi-sec work before because it doesn't seem like fun, unless maybe you're going for the war-dec thing. I've tried to think up a scheme whereby random drive-by shootings are replaced by heists - less Boyz'n'The Hood, more Ocean's Eleven - for the very selfish reason that I might want to try it someday. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Lacco	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:25:00 - [173] [12:22:52] Razen21 > wts 50day GTC 290M convo oh my.. quoted from jita local chat
Razen21	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:33:00 - [174] Heh Lacco I actually ordered the GTC via snail mail about 2 weeks back and it just arrived today. Came at the right time
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:39:00 - [175] The concept of tanking enrages and confuses the OP Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Major Death Caldari Space Salvage Incorperated	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:40:00 - [176] Quote: That's not the problem, if it would have been in a T2 ship it would have been killed just as easily. Weird, because every one of the 'help I got suicide ganked!' posts all talk about (untanked) T1 Industrials getting blasted across Jita. Maybe if people were getting hit in (tanked) T2 Industrials there might be a more sympathetic response. My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was remove for lack of EVE content! ;)
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:51:00 - [177] Edited by: Captian Internet on 18/09/2007 12:53:03 Originally by: Ozzie Kime The ability to gank should not be dealt with.. if its possible to do then you should be able to do it without it being taken as an exploit. However.. Im missing the logic that says the authorities would just leave your property floating in space after dealing with the gankers. They would surely transport it to the nearest CONCORD station. The hand of god has no time for clean up just time for smiting! Originally by: Rylet VanDorn #1) If you have 500 million isk worth of goods, you should be able to afford a deep space transport or blockade runner that will either have the resists and health to withstand a suicide gank, or aligns and moves fast enough that it won't be caught. #2) Insurance shouldn't pay out to self-destructs or Concord kills. The fact that it does is asinine. It is also asinine that your insurance doesn't skyrocket when you jump into lowsec/0.0 Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Klebzellok PsyCorp INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:55:00 - [178] How to move stuff completely safe without a single skillpoint invested: Courier Contract Seruiously, I get mins and loot around 500mill value moved regularly through known low-sec chokepoints for 15-20mill (don't tell anyone ). There are suckers out there who will take that risk for you for petty change.
Razen21	Posted - 2007.09.18 13:18:00 - [179] if someone has that amount of money to put up the collat, i doubt they'd haul for 20m
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.18 13:21:00 - [180] Originally by: Greenwing Edited by: Greenwing on 17/09/2007 14:54:26 Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Tank your ship, warp to zero, problem solved. Too bad this doesn't work, tank means just some more gankers (same for a T2 hauler). Warp to zero still leaves you with warping away from the gate. Both don't counter the real problem. Hardly. The majority of the gankers out there work solo. People have tried to gank my alt and i've gotten away from them a handful of times. Originally by: consider telos ..then we had a fight and he was so dead and then I like became champion of eve and then ccp gave me a medal and a t-shirt and asked me to go out with him on a date to mcD'
Klebzellok PsyCorp INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.09.18 13:43:00 - [181] Originally by: Razen21 if someone has that amount of money to put up the collat, i doubt they'd haul for 20m As I said, there are suckers out there who regulalry do, and 500 mill isn't earth-shattering amounts of isk. Reward will vary with risk involved and distance ofc (and the risk honestly isn't very high if the hauler knows how to do his job). I've had 450mill collateral contracts done in less than a day for 14mill (13 jumps, two low sec jumps), but usually put them up at 25 for that distance, it gets done within a day or so every single time.
Gealbhan Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:13:00 - [182] ouch, sorry for your loss. The most expensive thing i ever hauled at once was an implant worth a paltry 62mil. even if some crazy suicider decided to try and attack the chances are pretty high it would be destroyed anyway. I never, ever, haul anything worth 100mil or more and i always fly manual so the thing is, carry your expensive stuff in loads, not all at once, and warp to 0 even in 1.0 space. The idea is to make it not worth the suicide pilots time - cost him more than he'll cost you - and oh yeah, always warp to 0. "Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium.
Greenwing SuX ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:51:00 - [183] Edited by: Greenwing on 18/09/2007 15:51:41 Originally by: Malcanis " I would like to think a reasonably alert player wouldn't not hang around for "a couple of minutes" while this occurred. Why should they online their guns while you are near ? They will online their guns after undocking and then wait for a nice target. Quote: I did think of logistics ships, but they don't help enough unless you have a LOT of them (1-12 per gank ship, depending on type: re-capping a battleship from 30->95% 5-7 times takes a LOT of cap). Anything which increases the size of the gang required to do the gank decreases the likelihood of encountering the gang, and increases the value of the target required to make the operation profitable. You can online your weapons away from the gate and warp in, of course, but that immediately attracts police aggro - thus giving our freighter-pilot's scout a chance to see that something is amiss and avoid the camp. Not if they warp in AFTER the freighter pilot enters system. All the gankers need is a bump-shuttle and the freighter has not the slightest chance to warp away. Quote: You could have some tanked up drakes "pull" the police away so that when your main gang warps in they get a window of opportunity to not have to fight them, but again, the alert scout has a chance to notice something is wrong. But again not if the gankers have a scout of their own on the gate. So an alert freighter-scout has not a chance to detect anything wrong. Quote: And then consider that in order to flee with their gains, they will have to offline all their weapons again. They don't have to do that because their cargo hauler they use to scoop the goods doesn't have any weapons, is not aggroed and can just warp to the station with the loot and unload it. Quote: They can't dock at a hi-sec station; they have to get out of hi-sec while being blinky-red and with Concord chasing them all the way to lo-sec. And they'd better have friends in lo-sec as well, because they have to re-online all their weapons. The only places it is relatively "safe" to do ganks are the systems with a lo-sec gate - the border towns, as it were. Just like in teh cowboy films!!!1 They can just have their ship shot by concord, warp their pod to a SS and wait for the timer to run out. Takes some more time, but as they most probably use an alt they just continue to play on their main. Quote: Remember, my idea was not to make it impossible to do ganks or profit by them, but to make it so that you have to carefully plan and execute an operation for a specific target. The only way to protect an AFKer in a paper-thin hauler is to simply ban PvP in hi-sec altogether, which is the point where I stop trying to think up ideas and link to the WoW signup page. Ganks should be possible, but not at a profit which can be calculated in front. Originally by: Major Death Quote: That's not the problem, if it would have been in a T2 ship it would have been killed just as easily. Weird, because every one of the 'help I got suicide ganked!' posts all talk about (untanked) T1 Industrials getting blasted across Jita. Maybe if people were getting hit in (tanked) T2 Industrials there might be a more sympathetic response. Ever tried to tank a freighter ?
Olivin Gallente Aquarium	Posted - 2007.09.18 16:40:00 - [184] Originally by: Zato Ichii just a few things, whoever says "bring an escort" is a dumb**. what the hell is an escort gonna do when you are getting suicide ganked? remote rep you? so he's supposed to follow you all around highsec (loads of fun) and lock you everytime you start aligning for warp just in case someone starts shooting at you? sounds like a fun way to play a game whoever says don't fly around with xxx isk in your cargo, tell me how you are supposed to move things from one point to another then? make several round trips? what if you have tens of billions to move? then you're just **? and when people say "don't fly around with xxxx amount of isk in a t1 hauler" then tell me what do you fly it around in? yes flying hundreds of millions or billions in a t1 hauler is stupid but when even freighters can be suicide ganked in highsec there is a problem. ---------------------------- We¦re not lost. We¦re locationally challenged.**
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.18 17:40:00 - [185] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/09/2007 17:46:42 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/09/2007 17:44:18 Originally by: Chattia Kand Now this is were I confuse people. Both are right and both are wrong. Let me explain. The simple fact is that there is no way to prevent a determine attacker from attacking you, even in High sec. The only solution is to survive the situation and run and hide. There is no way to escort a ship in eve at the minute. No body guards. There is only hard to kill ships (T2 transporters). Thing is - you can make it unprofitable. If you carry 500M of loot in a ship gankable by a single T1 fitted BC, then, clearly, the risk vs reward is on the side of the attacker. If you carry 50M worth of loot in the same ship, it's still potentially profitable to gank it, but not necessarily worth the time and the effort (and there's always the risk of the Zyd being popped anyway). If you carry 10M worth of loot in the same ship, it's dumb to even try attacking it. Now, if you have 500M worth of stuff, the only really safe thing to carry it in would be a fully max tanked & buffered battleship (with, preferably, a slave set and all other applicable implants and of course, rigged), which would take tons of damage to take it down in time, and hence would most likely be unprofitable for the gankers and not worth their time and effort. Everything else is gambling. This is the EvE equivalent of using a armoured car to transport valuables. You don't transport gold bullion in your old van, do you? At a certain # of ISK carried, it's no longer possible to have a solo ship & setup which will be safe. However, both scouts and logistics are always a viable choice, as well as is someone to give you a armour HP / shield HP bonus, and works in all but the laggiest of environments. BTW, 'profit calculated up front' doesn't exist. There's always the chance of everything exploding. These things happen. There's a chance of nothing exploding. There's a lot of possibilities. You can only make an estimate how much will you make vs how much will you lose, not calculate exactly, and that is fine. Also, the ones complaining about tanked BS transport because it 'obsoletes' industrials: industrials are always useful for transporting low-cost stuff, and are great for cargo capacity. Think of it as a freight truck. It's good for general freight. Just not valuables.
Arkyk	Posted - 2007.09.18 17:50:00 - [186] I don't see anything wrong with suicide ganking. (Heck, the first 2 Million I made as a newbie was from scavenging wrecks left behind by a GoonSwarm suicide frigate run on a Hulk mining in 0.9. Welcome to EvE indeed. =P). Although if they wanted to deal it a blow in a way that makes sense in-game, they should just remove insurance payouts for ships that are CONCORDed. Then it's still possible to do (as it should be), but the risk/reward of doing it shifts a bit. ---------------- Mostly harmless.
Greenwing SuX ltd.	Posted - 2007.09.18 17:56:00 - [187] Originally by: Cpt Branko BTW, 'profit calculated up front' doesn't exist. There's always the chance of everything exploding. These things happen. There's a chance of nothing exploding. There's a lot of possibilities. You can only make an estimate how much will you make vs how much will you lose, not calculate exactly, and that is fine. You know what will be left on average (40-50%) so you also know that if you are going to loose 100mil in a gank the target has to carry about 200 mil in assets. You might get some less, you might get some more, but do it 10 times and it's almost certain you will be on the 40-50% average drops. Quote: Also, the ones complaining about tanked BS transport because it 'obsoletes' industrials: industrials are always useful for transporting low-cost stuff, and are great for cargo capacity. Think of it as a freight truck. It's good for general freight. Just not valuables. Too bad a freighter filled with low level items is still worth it to gank....
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.18 18:26:00 - [188] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/09/2007 17:46:42 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/09/2007 17:44:18 Originally by: Chattia Kand Now this is were I confuse people. Both are right and both are wrong. Let me explain. The simple fact is that there is no way to prevent a determine attacker from attacking you, even in High sec. The only solution is to survive the situation and run and hide. There is no way to escort a ship in eve at the minute. No body guards. There is only hard to kill ships (T2 transporters). Thing is - you can make it unprofitable. If you carry 500M of loot in a ship gankable by a single T1 fitted BC, then, clearly, the risk vs reward is on the side of the attacker. If you carry 50M worth of loot in the same ship, it's still potentially profitable to gank it, but not necessarily worth the time and the effort (and there's always the risk of the Zyd being popped anyway). If you carry 10M worth of loot in the same ship, it's dumb to even try attacking it. Now, if you have 500M worth of stuff, the only really safe thing to carry it in would be a fully max tanked & buffered battleship (with, preferably, a slave set and all other applicable implants and of course, rigged), which would take tons of damage to take it down in time, and hence would most likely be unprofitable for the gankers and not worth their time and effort. Everything else is gambling. This is the EvE equivalent of using a armoured car to transport valuables. You don't transport gold bullion in your old van, do you? At a certain # of ISK carried, it's no longer possible to have a solo ship & setup which will be safe. However, both scouts and logistics are always a viable choice, as well as is someone to give you a armour HP / shield HP bonus, and works in all but the laggiest of environments. BTW, 'profit calculated up front' doesn't exist. There's always the chance of everything exploding. These things happen. There's a chance of nothing exploding. There's a lot of possibilities. You can only make an estimate how much will you make vs how much will you lose, not calculate exactly, and that is fine. Also, the ones complaining about tanked BS transport because it 'obsoletes' industrials: industrials are always useful for transporting low-cost stuff, and are great for cargo capacity. Think of it as a freight truck. It's good for general freight. Just not valuables. So lets use battleships to haul, industrials, transport ships and freighters are just not good for the job and dont use them for what they should be used for, but nothing is wrong with the game mechanics.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive Animal.	Posted - 2007.09.18 18:34:00 - [189] Originally by: KeyserSoze i agree with this, but how would a noob who doesnt read the forum know this? see what im saying? to play this game you need to tell people the forums are required reading material to learn how the game works. When I was a n00b, I read the Player Guide, which made me so paranoid I nearly shat myself the first time someone locked my Condor for giggles in high-sec. You see, I took this part literally:- Quote: TREAT EVERYONE AS HOSTILE unless you know otherwise, i.e. if you don't know someone as a friend or acquaintance assume they are planning to kill you and watch them at all times. The same guide is still there. Bandures > Tommy, you like a cowboy harry )
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.18 18:50:00 - [190] Originally by: Ridley Scot So lets use battleships to haul, industrials, transport ships and freighters are just not good for the job and dont use them for what they should be used for, but nothing is wrong with the game mechanics. If you're hauling valuables, then bloody well YES. And that's good game mechanics, you just need different tools for different jobs, or, in EvE terms, different ships for different roles. T1 transports are not the ideal tool for transporting a full hold of faction, T2 and named loot safely. They're great for transporting stuff which has low ISK/volume. If I'm going to transport faction mods, i'll transport them in something fast (since cargo hold is no problem, making things like interceptors or really speedfit frigs ideal), and never AFK. If I need to transport 1000m3 of something valuable, then a really tanked BS is the tool for the job. If I want to transport low-level minerals, cap boosters, ammo and things like that which are not very expensive BUT take up tons of volume, then, hell yes, the industrial is what I'm looking for. What, do you really think one or two ship classes can provide for all of your transport needs? The rest of us have to train different ship classes to fulfill different roles, and it appears you, as an industrial, don't want to. Well, your problem when you get your paper-ship ganked by doing the equivalent of transporting gold bullion in your old van.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.18 18:55:00 - [191] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Ridley Scot So lets use battleships to haul, industrials, transport ships and freighters are just not good for the job and dont use them for what they should be used for, but nothing is wrong with the game mechanics. If you're hauling valuables, then bloody well YES. And that's good game mechanics, you just need different tools for different jobs, or, in EvE terms, different ships for different roles. T1 transports are not the ideal tool for transporting a full hold of faction, T2 and named loot safely. They're great for transporting stuff which has low ISK/volume. If I'm going to transport faction mods, i'll transport them in something fast (since cargo hold is no problem, making things like interceptors or really speedfit frigs ideal), and never AFK. If I need to transport 1000m3 of something valuable, then a really tanked BS is the tool for the job. If I want to transport low-level minerals, cap boosters, ammo and things like that which are not very expensive BUT take up tons of volume, then, hell yes, the industrial is what I'm looking for. What, do you really think one or two ship classes can provide for all of your transport needs? The rest of us have to train different ship classes to fulfill different roles, and it appears you, as an industrial, don't want to. Well, your problem when you get your paper-ship ganked by doing the equivalent of transporting gold bullion in your old van. Whatever, you are clueless. And stop making RL reference as this is a game.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.18 20:42:00 - [192] Originally by: Ridley Scot Whatever, you are clueless. And stop making RL reference as this is a game. I take it you're trying to say 'I have no reasonable arguments left, but I can insult you all day to make up for it'? Basically, you're just trying to get ganked in your stubborn refusal to use the right tool for the job. Which is fine, but don't create a drama bomb on the forums when it does happen, because you (as well as the OP) were just asking for it. What you seem to be whining about is that the current game mechanics force you to train more skills and use more brains to transport stuff in a safer fashion. Wellcome to EvE. The entire post is perfectly valid even without the transporting gold in a van reference (which I feel very accurately points out that you're simply using the wrong tool for the job).
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.18 20:52:00 - [193] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Ridley Scot Whatever, you are clueless. And stop making RL reference as this is a game. I take it you're trying to say 'I have no reasonable arguments left, but I can insult you all day to make up for it'? Basically, you're just trying to get ganked in your stubborn refusal to use the right tool for the job. Which is fine, but don't create a drama bomb on the forums when it does happen, because you (as well as the OP) were just asking for it. What you seem to be whining about is that the current game mechanics force you to train more skills and use more brains to transport stuff in a safer fashion. Wellcome to EvE. The entire post is perfectly valid even without the transporting gold in a van reference (which I feel very accurately points out that you're simply using the wrong tool for the job). No, I said you are clueless because you talk about tech 1 Transport ships not because I dont have any more arguments. All transport ships in the game are tech 2. Tech 1 haulers are called Industrial ships. Also before you call someone "carebear" or industrialist as you put it, make sure you understand that some people have more then one character. If I'm posting with research character it doesnt mean I dont have a hauling character, or pirat character. There is more and more clues in your post that pretty much tell me you dont have much clue about whats going on. Besides, even if you use a battleship to haul your most valuable stuff it still can be destroyed and looted it will just take a few more ships to do it. If a freighter can be destroyed in high sec so can be one battleship. Maybe not with 1 or 2 ships but 20 Domis with drones will do the job if your cargo/modules is valuable enough.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.18 21:00:00 - [194] Originally by: Ridley Scot No, I said you are clueless because you talk about tech 1 Transport ships not because I dont have any more arguments. All transport ships in the game are tech 2. Tech 1 haulers are called Industrial ships. Yes, I know. I was just referring to them all as transport ships because their role is to, well, transport stuff. I did specifically say T1 thinking of haulers. Originally by: Ridley Scot Also before you call someone "carebear" or industrialist as you put it, make sure you understand that some people have more then one character. If I'm posting with research character it doesnt mean I dont have a hauling character, or pirat character. There's nothing bad about being an industrialist, and I am relatively sure I didn't even say 'carebear' in any of the posts in this thread. At any rate, THAT sounds like a velied thread of the 'I have a 50M SP PvP main with a Nyx' kind. Originally by: Ridley Scot There is more and more clues in your post that pretty much tell me you dont have much clue about whats going on. There are arguments in your posts that you are wrong and have no clue. This is even better then 'you're clueless'. Originally by: Ridley Scot Besides, even if you use a battleship to haul your most valuable stuff it still can be destroyed and looted it will just take a few more ships to do it. And hence won't be worth to suicide it unless the cost of the loot carried is at least 2 * total gank cost or more. Plus, since it WILL require multiple ships, not all solo gankers will be able to do so. There's still a limit on how much you can transport in it safely, as I patiently explained a number of times. Originally by: Ridley Scot If a freighter can be destroyed in high sec so can be one battleship. Maybe not with 1 or 2 ships but 20 Domis with drones will do the job if your cargo/modules is valuable enough. You are taking a (calculated, I hope) risk whenever you load more then twice the amount of ISK then it costs to kill you. Meh. By the way, do you notice the forum whines are typically about: "I loaded 50+ times the cost to gank my ship and set it to autopilot, and I got killed, fix CCP"
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.18 21:06:00 - [195] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 18/09/2007 21:06:08 Ok you win. We should all use battleships to haul. If I need 30k m3 of moon minerals worth 300 mil isk I will take 30 x 37 high sec jumps one way and back to move it from Jita to where I need it. Please go away....
Sylthi Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic	Posted - 2007.09.18 21:12:00 - [196] Just accept the fact that CCP tries to FORCE as many people as possible to PvP. Many of the devs at CCP are hard core PvPers; and have been through many other games before they came to CCP. This is the PRIMARY reason why Eve will always be slanted towards PvP getting the lionÆs share of the ôdev love.ö This is also the reason they try to force it down everyoneÆs throat and why PvP most commonly gets most of the expansion efforts in game. PvP is also a very cheap form of game content; hence the reason so many MMOs love it. It takes almost no coding time to arrange, and the upkeep on the PvP system is almost non-existant as long as you don't randomly change crap around. Should CCP do something about the high sec ganking? Absolutely. Otherwise "High Sec" means almost nothing, and they might as well make the entire game .4 security or lower. That way all the carebears, myself included (currently), can get it over with and quit the game. Also, High Sec ganking is a CLEAR example of an exploit. Like it or not, despite what the devs want to call it, it's the truth. High Sec Ganking is OBVIOUSLY something that was not intended to be part of the overall game mechanic, so, by definition, it is an exploit. However, that being said, CCP won't do anything about this exploit because it involves PvP being FORCED on people who don't want to PvP; which the devs LOVE. IS CCP going to do anything about the high sec ganking? Absolutly not. To quote Oveur, "CCP is unique in the MMO industry in that you can die anywhere." This statement alone should tell you all you need to know. CCP LOVES it when the more aggressive members of the community come up with new and inventive ways of dispensing pain on the less aggressive members. That is what this issue is really about. Period. * *
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.18 21:34:00 - [197] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 18/09/2007 21:35:50 Originally by: Sylthi PvP is also a very cheap form of game content; hence the reason so many MMOs love it. It takes almost no coding time to arrange, and the upkeep on the PvP system is almost non-existant as long as you don't randomly change crap around. I see most of their balancing and so on efforts being PvP-focused, so it's not so 'upkeep-free'. At any rate, PvP IS necessary for industrials to have something to do in the game (because it does drive the market), and industrials are necessary for PvP-ers to have something to fly bigger then a frigate. Originally by: Sylthi Also, High Sec ganking is a CLEAR example of an exploit. Like it or not, despite what the devs want to call it, it's the truth. (what?!?) High Sec Ganking is OBVIOUSLY something that was not intended to be part of the overall game mechanic, so, by definition, it is an exploit. (wait, what was the last thing about devs?!?) However, that being said, CCP won't do anything about this exploit because it involves PvP being FORCED on people who don't want to PvP; which the devs LOVE. IS CCP going to do anything about the high sec ganking? Absolutly not. To quote Oveur, "CCP is unique in the MMO industry in that you can die anywhere." (wait, isn't that obviously not intended to be a part of game mechanics? Is Oveur drunk??!) It sounds like it's both a feature and working as intended until further notice! Now, what makes you think you know what the developers intended to do with the game then they do? Are you some sort of mind-reader?
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.18 21:57:00 - [198] Originally by: Sylthi Just accept the fact that CCP tries to FORCE as many people as possible to PvP. Many of the devs at CCP are hard core PvPers; and have been through many other games before they came to CCP. This is the PRIMARY reason why Eve will always be slanted towards PvP getting the lionÆs share of the ôdev love.ö This is also the reason they try to force it down everyoneÆs throat and why PvP most commonly gets most of the expansion efforts in game. PvP is also a very cheap form of game content; hence the reason so many MMOs love it. It takes almost no coding time to arrange, and the upkeep on the PvP system is almost non-existant as long as you don't randomly change crap around. Should CCP do something about the high sec ganking? Absolutely. Otherwise "High Sec" means almost nothing, and they might as well make the entire game .4 security or lower. That way all the carebears, myself included (currently), can get it over with and quit the game. Also, High Sec ganking is a CLEAR example of an exploit. Like it or not, despite what the devs want to call it, it's the truth. High Sec Ganking is OBVIOUSLY something that was not intended to be part of the overall game mechanic, so, by definition, it is an exploit. However, that being said, CCP won't do anything about this exploit because it involves PvP being FORCED on people who don't want to PvP; which the devs LOVE. IS CCP going to do anything about the high sec ganking? Absolutly not. To quote Oveur, "CCP is unique in the MMO industry in that you can die anywhere." This statement alone should tell you all you need to know. CCP LOVES it when the more aggressive members of the community come up with new and inventive ways of dispensing pain on the less aggressive members. That is what this issue is really about. Period. I myself like to PVP more then anything in the game. I PVP most of the time with my other characters and I play industrial side of the game to provide resources to PVP beacuse when you PVP you lose stuff and you have to replace it. The fact is, high sec suicide ganking is not PVP, its cheap,lame and risk free way of providing resources to PVP as long as you dont get punished for doing so.
Callthetruth Caldari Drunken Ratbags Inc	Posted - 2007.09.18 22:00:00 - [199] i note the OP had a bestower no scout and also didnt use wtz as well as not hauling in a t2 hauler bad idea
Giatshi	Posted - 2007.09.18 22:43:00 - [200] Edited by: Giatshi on 18/09/2007 22:46:21 Edited by: Giatshi on 18/09/2007 22:45:07 So battleships are to be the new "uber' haulers.And what exactly does scouting do?Uhm im always checking my overview....iv yet to see anything named "suicide-ganker","suicide-ganker scout","guy who wants to suicide-gank",'this guy will tell his buddies to suicide gank"..etc etc....Hmm..an escort..o you mean a spectator? I just checked the ship names/description.I was unable to find any class of ship named "kamikaze","Suicide-gankers delight" or similar such name.Upon further investigation of ship descriptions i have been unable to find any class of ship designated to fill the "disposable" role.Nothing along the lines of "deals massive amount of damage,destroys the target and the explodes into a ball of fire"...nothing..not even close. However.I did find a class of ship actually NAMED "Freighter".It actually seems that this class of ship is designed to haul large quantities of goods.Quite curiously,it would appear that most of these ships have some level of armor or shield...are they intended to be able to have some form of defense? Upon closer examination of these hauling class types of ships...it seems there is an industrial class also..It would appear there are several varieties of these.Most seem to appear to make notice of the fact they have some form of defense,and yes cargo hold considerations are an important aspect of these also?..most curious. But wait..what is this,A transport ship class?...this must be a type of fighter carrier,or perhaps it is used to move troops around when making planetary invasions?Hmmm how very odd.In checking the description it would seem neither is the case?Hmm blockade runners?...used for dangerous space?,able to withstand the rigors of deep-space?Now im just confused...if we know all space is dangerous,and battleships are the haulers... /sarcam off Yes in the games current state suicide ganking can be defended,justified.The only problem with that is that it breaks the game mechanics,and renders ship designs obsolete.So far i havent seen CCP rule one way or the other on this,But they will have to or we can all just sit in high-sec space and gank each others cargo...how fun!...we will have to move amounts of resources around in such minimal quantites that it is no longer truly feasible for ppl/corps to build ships/modules in any large degree...affecting the market severally.Are we there yet,no..but given the propsed "solutions" that is where we will head.
heheheh The Scope	Posted - 2007.09.18 22:52:00 - [201] damn not again, Dont carry what u cant afford to loose. If you really cant afford to loose your cargo use smaller faster ships and make a few journeys.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.18 23:14:00 - [202] Originally by: Greenwing Edited by: Greenwing on 18/09/2007 15:51:41 Originally by: Malcanis " I would like to think a reasonably alert player wouldn't not hang around for "a couple of minutes" while this occurred. Why should they online their guns while you are near ? They will online their guns after undocking and then wait for a nice target. Quote: I did think of logistics ships, but they don't help enough unless you have a LOT of them (1-12 per gank ship, depending on type: re-capping a battleship from 30->95% 5-7 times takes a LOT of cap). Anything which increases the size of the gang required to do the gank decreases the likelihood of encountering the gang, and increases the value of the target required to make the operation profitable. You can online your weapons away from the gate and warp in, of course, but that immediately attracts police aggro - thus giving our freighter-pilot's scout a chance to see that something is amiss and avoid the camp. Not if they warp in AFTER the freighter pilot enters system. All the gankers need is a bump-shuttle and the freighter has not the slightest chance to warp away. Quote: You could have some tanked up drakes "pull" the police away so that when your main gang warps in they get a window of opportunity to not have to fight them, but again, the alert scout has a chance to notice something is wrong. But again not if the gankers have a scout of their own on the gate. So an alert freighter-scout has not a chance to detect anything wrong. Quote: And then consider that in order to flee with their gains, they will have to offline all their weapons again. They don't have to do that because their cargo hauler they use to scoop the goods doesn't have any weapons, is not aggroed and can just warp to the station with the loot and unload it. Quote: They can't dock at a hi-sec station; they have to get out of hi-sec while being blinky-red and with Concord chasing them all the way to lo-sec. And they'd better have friends in lo-sec as well, because they have to re-online all their weapons. The only places it is relatively "safe" to do ganks are the systems with a lo-sec gate - the border towns, as it were. Just like in teh cowboy films!!!1 They can just have their ship shot by concord, warp their pod to a SS and wait for the timer to run out. Takes some more time, but as they most probably use an alt they just continue to play on their main. Quote: Remember, my idea was not to make it impossible to do ganks or profit by them, but to make it so that you have to carefully plan and execute an operation for a specific target. The only way to protect an AFKer in a paper-thin hauler is to simply ban PvP in hi-sec altogether, which is the point where I stop trying to think up ideas and link to the WoW signup page. Ganks should be possible, but not at a profit which can be calculated in front. Originally by: Major Death Quote: That's not the problem, if it would have been in a T2 ship it would have been killed just as easily. Weird, because every one of the 'help I got suicide ganked!' posts all talk about (untanked) T1 Industrials getting blasted across Jita. Maybe if people were getting hit in (tanked) T2 Industrials there might be a more sympathetic response. Ever tried to tank a freighter ? Greenwing, I'm pretty sure that I put in a proviso that taking a "Concord noted" can would make one an 'accessory', also subject to pursuit. Looting a Concord-attracting wreck should also attract the same attention. "Ganks should be possible, but not at a profit which can be calculated in front." Well this mystifies me. Taken as read, it means that gankers should not be allowed to make a plan to hit a target in order to make a profit. Why not? Surely this encourages game play? WRT to shuttles bumping freighters, I agree that tiny little shuttles or inties should not be able to bump vast near-cap ships. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.18 23:15:00 - [203] Quote: Ok you win. We should all use battleships to haul. If I need 30k m3 of moon minerals worth 300 mil isk I will take 30 x 37 high sec jumps one way and back to move it from Jita to where I need it. Please go away.... You're a moron, pretty obvious from this statement. If you had a brain, you'd use a transport ship and make 2 trips. 150mil is not enough profit to gank a TANKED t2 transport.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.18 23:17:00 - [204] "They can just have their ship shot by concord, warp their pod to a SS and wait for the timer to run out. Takes some more time, but as they most probably use an alt they just continue to play on their main." Um, I was positing a timer that lasts for hours or days, not ten minutes. Depending on when DT was, the wreck would not likely be there by the time the aggro timer runs out. It would certainly have been looted by enterprising salvagers. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.19 01:21:00 - [205] Originally by: Gamesguy Quote: Ok you win. We should all use battleships to haul. If I need 30k m3 of moon minerals worth 300 mil isk I will take 30 x 37 high sec jumps one way and back to move it from Jita to where I need it. Please go away.... You're a moron, pretty obvious from this statement. If you had a brain, you'd use a transport ship and make 2 trips. 150mil is not enough profit to gank a TANKED t2 transport. Awsome post! Very informative, with a good solution, respectfull and with a great level of maturity. I give you 1 on scale from 1 to 10 thought for not reading the most of this conversation in a writen form.
Ira Theos	Posted - 2007.09.19 04:58:00 - [206] Mental note.... Ridley Scot.... make sure to charge him double on licensing fee when "Operation Vendettta" goes into effect.
Callthetruth Caldari Drunken Ratbags Inc	Posted - 2007.09.19 05:08:00 - [207] ah well game rolls on
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.19 05:13:00 - [208] Originally by: Ira Theos Mental note.... Ridley Scot.... make sure to charge him double on licensing fee when "Operation Vendettta" goes into effect. Ira mate, go run your missions coz thats about the only thing you are good at
Ben Rumsom	Posted - 2007.12.20 04:00:00 - [209] Agree and bump. Everything else here is just plain silly noise.
Novemb3r Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.20 06:32:00 - [210] Originally by: Ridley Scot Its really up to CCP. They dont want to fix it. So yeah, gank in high sec, its easy, no risk involved and profit is huge. They don't need to fix anything. It's not broken. -
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.20 06:54:00 - [211] Originally by: Ben Rumsom Agree and bump. Everything else here is just plain silly noise. What, silly noise like 3 month thread necros? ________________________________________________________________ Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Kirmok	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:00:00 - [212] What we need isn't security. Its fine how it is. They lose and risk destroying what they want from you. What we need is ship/cargo scanner blockers. Some module we can fit to counteract cargo and ship scanners. If not both then just a cargo scanner scrambler. What's not fair is the fact haulers can do nothing to prevent being scanned if the pirates don't know what you have. Then them may not attack :) risk/reward. As it is now. They know what they may get and if its worth more than their ship they go for it and use their 2nd account alt or a friend to pick up the loot.
Toxic Fumes	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:23:00 - [213] Errrm welcome to the real world. Concord are police not preventers. If you go into town and get mugged the police (may) turn up and often AFTER the crime. They (may) catch the criminal and punish them but they rarely prevent the crime. I don't go walking around with ú100,000 in my pocket thinking I'm going to be 100% safe.
Tzar'rim Minmatar Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:33:00 - [214] Darwinism at work. ------ Act quickly, think slowly.
William Alex Viscosity	Posted - 2007.12.20 12:59:00 - [215] "Suicide ganking" should be possible. At the moment though, I think the risk vs reward is off.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.23 15:22:00 - [216] Originally by: Kirmok Edited by: Kirmok on 20/12/2007 10:20:36 EDIT: typos! What we need isn't security. Its fine how it is. They lose and risk destroying what they want from you. What we need is ship/cargo scanner blockers. Some module we can fit to counteract cargo and ship scanners. If not both then just a cargo scanner scrambler. What's not fair is the fact haulers can do nothing to prevent being scanned. If the pirates don't know what you have then them may not attack :) risk/reward. As it is now. They know what they may get and if its worth more than their ship they go for it and use their 2nd account alt or a friend to pick up the loot. based on some sort of scan resolution? it makes some sense to be able to send - unidentified object - to the one scanning and not based on a chance since multiple scans could in theory still allow full detection and could easily be done without any repercussion or additional strain on the attacking sides behalf unfortunately nothing for freighters except some type of implant that would be chance based Trashed sig, Shark was here
mightymadmat Amarr Equity Corp Phobos Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.03 16:44:00 - [217] I agree, green/yellow areas(0.5+) of empire space are safer than the red areas(0.4-). Concord only response to the event, not the likelihood of the event. I was transporting a medium control tower and Pandemic Legion fire a number of missiles at my Iteron V, it had some tanking on it but at the end concord waxed the manticore that fired the missiles and knocked down the shields on my ship and 2% armour damage. It pays to tank your industrial ship regardless Mighty Mad Mat CEO Equity Corp Quote : 0.0 space is ideal for strip mining - think of it in both ways.
III LightBringer Okkelen Grave Robbers	Posted - 2008.01.03 16:51:00 - [218] necro!!!! anyway.. some medium shield extender, a damage control T2 ... and maybee some warp core stabs instead of the cargo expanders? shield hardners? ... ohh, there are so MANY ways not to loose that ship you n00b..
Naomi Venture	Posted - 2008.01.03 16:55:00 - [219] Yay! Necro thread. Originally by: Toxic Fumes Errrm welcome to the real world. Umm. Last I checked, this was a game, not the "Real World" Or are you talking about reality shows?
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.03 17:05:00 - [220] MOAR NECRO! This thread fails. It failed in the time of the whine, it will fail again after its rebirth as a reminder of why you shouldn't let your whining friends play this game Fit warp stabs, dont fly afk, YOU ARE SAFE NO WHERE. Scanning cargo is just that. At this point if you are stiill having problems, just log out dishonorably, don't come on the forums, just aggravate the pirates trying to kill you not the whole eve community on why you can't sit in front of your computer and play the game instead of having a autopilot do your work for you.
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.01.03 17:11:00 - [221] Originally by: III LightBringer necro!!!! hello, welcome to the new forums. If its not 90 days since the last post, its not considered a necro. _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.03 17:17:00 - [222] seeing eyedog fails at forums it is a necro because its an old thread bumped for no constructive reason with a post that added nothing Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.03 17:17:00 - [223] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Kirmok Edited by: Kirmok on 20/12/2007 10:20:36 EDIT: typos! What we need isn't security. Its fine how it is. They lose and risk destroying what they want from you. What we need is ship/cargo scanner blockers. Some module we can fit to counteract cargo and ship scanners. If not both then just a cargo scanner scrambler. What's not fair is the fact haulers can do nothing to prevent being scanned. If the pirates don't know what you have then them may not attack :) risk/reward. As it is now. They know what they may get and if its worth more than their ship they go for it and use their 2nd account alt or a friend to pick up the loot. based on some sort of scan resolution? it makes some sense to be able to send - unidentified object - to the one scanning and not based on a chance since multiple scans could in theory still allow full detection and could easily be done without any repercussion or additional strain on the attacking sides behalf unfortunately nothing for freighters except some type of implant that would be chance based I know, Necro and all that... but... How about several modules... like radar detectors... some will detect the scans, some block the scans, some confuse the scans (false report junk)... my skill at using the blockers against your ability to scan... with different effects - detectors grant "Kill rights" as with an ore thief that steals from a can, T2 Detectors can also block the scan... but just for the scanned ship... blockers and their T2 version that both block and return false data would not flag (or perhaps the T2 version would...) As you stated, this does nothing for Freighters, but add the blocking ability (Based on the pilots Skills with Freighters and Blockers) as a ship "Bonus" would cover that. --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.03 17:35:00 - [224] Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 20:51:01 500m of zydrine lost....What is the point of having hi security areas where players can sucicide gank you? Victim: Razen21 Alliance: Elemental Fusion Corp: Black Thorne Corporation Destroyed: Bestower System: Kusomonmon Security: 0.8 Involved parties: Name: Evil M (laid the final blow) Security: -0.4 Alliance: Cult of War Corp: Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Ship: Hurricane Weapon: 425mm AutoCannon I Destroyed items: Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II i spent most of the week getting that 500m worth of zydrine :( if it had gotten destroyed at least i'd have the satisfaction. This is very...frustrating. It's the same tactic as suicide bombers in Real Life (TM). CONCORD are the equivalent of "police". Police show up after the crime to fill out paperwork, shoot at the occasional bad guy after the fact, and eat donuts. They aren't allowed to shoot people in advance because there's no such thing as Pre-Crime. ------------------ Please note: No Windows System files were harmed during the creation or deployment of this patch.
FuzzBuzz Caldari North Face Force	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:20:00 - [225] did my 1st suicide runs yesterday, goto say, i like it. works out at 5m a pop to try it, got about 40m from the 1st one, and the 2nd everything popped apart from a shuttle and expanded 2. this guy has crap load of faction stuff :( ----- In this game, what becomes popular becomes overpowered, what becomes overpowered gets nerfed. NEXT! endless cycle.
Mr fluffybunny	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:21:00 - [226] just one thing needs to be adjusted in the current system. If you get spanked by concord, you do not collect insurance.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:25:00 - [227] It's fine. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Minmatar 2008 asteroid and ice salvage corp	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:22:00 - [228] ccp told me sucicde ganking is considered normal game play.it is wrong that players are led to belive 0.5+ is safe, i lost a mackinaw t2 fitted i spent around 150m on it and some douche just flew up to me in a thorax and blasted me doing over 3k dps maby ccp needs to add a feature were concord pay compensation out of the suicide gankers wallet (the market value) it is wrong that players who spend most of there game time saving hard in empire mining or what ever for a member from a 0.0 alliance to just fly up to you and waste around 2-3 weeks of savings, we all know 0.0 can be alot more profitble than farming missions or mining empire,,
Xipe Totec Republic University	Posted - 2008.03.16 11:13:00 - [229] I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if I repeat something. I have just recently been the victim of a suicide gank. In general I dont have any problem with that , I am fully aware (and think that it is principle game mechanics) that hisec is safER but not safe. How ever, I feel that two things may be looked into by CCP. 1) The role of NPC-Corp Alts who gather the spoils (in league with the criminal) after CONCORD has done it's thing. 2) Adjust the security hit to a criminal based on the defenselessness (is that a word?) of his victim (especially unarmed vessels). But let me restate that I am TOTALLY AGAINST eleminating suicide ganking all together , so dont try to push me in that corner!
Tivookz IMPERIAL SENATE Pure.	Posted - 2008.03.16 11:24:00 - [230] Edited by: Tivookz on 16/03/2008 11:24:49 Sorry to say it but this thread is stupid because what would be the point of having transport ships such as the occator, bustard or mastodon if u were able to safely move valuable items risk free in empire using a papertank Bestower. Transports certainly don't make it risk free but they do make it much harder if fitted properly. Tiv
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.16 11:51:00 - [231] I'm waiting for someone to get popped carrying a load of Veld. Then we'll hear "Hey you shouldn't be carrying 10m worth of stuff in a t1 hauler." Concord provides consequences, we're all wondering where those consequences are. I'm fine with hisec being like 0.0 I just wish they'd put some Crok and 1.8 mil rats in the belts.
Xipe Totec Republic University	Posted - 2008.03.16 12:24:00 - [232] /signed
Golden Tail Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.16 19:14:00 - [233] Edited by: Golden Tail on 16/03/2008 19:17:18 This is an alt and not my main. Reason i am posting with my alt is because i dont want you to know who my main is, due to what i am about to say. I haul 3-4 billion ISK per load every 1-2 days from Jita. I have been at it for almost a year. I fly a blockade runner. I have spent a lot of time analyzing how suicide gankers work after being ganked in a similar way you have been, personally loosing nearly .7 billion a year ago. I have found ways to introduce static into their scanning process. Found new ways to get out of their range faster than they can lock - which is why the new undock velocity/vector is so awesome. I stopped autopiloting looong time ago. I can afford a lot of accounts, and i use them to just sit outside Jita hub and watch for an opportune moment to undock. Sometimes i have alt bs's sitting there waiting to rep my hauler just in case it gets primaried. I was once chased by a gang of 20 BS's from Hek to Jita. These guys are persistent. And have a lot of time on their hands. When there is 600-800 locals, i don't undock. Undocking after DT is best, but not always possible, and when i do undock into a pool of 500 locals and it takes 3 minutes for black screen to disappear - cold sweat rolls down my spine. But this is something you live with in a game with the scale and darwinian spirit of EVE. So i understand how you are feeling right now. After i got ganked and lost nearly everything i had, i quit EVE for 2 months. You are completely justified to just quit... regardless of any witticism some forum jockey here throws at you. Most of the people who reply have never seen 9 figures in their wallet, nor do they have what it takes to get there. Think i grind? Think again. My advice to you is to take a more proactive role in your own safety. The beauty of the game is the fact that its targeted towards adults with more wits about them than your usual 15 year old wow player. Study how gankers work. Join a corp that does suicide ganks if you have to. Find what time is best to haul ****. Send a scout ahead while sitting cloaked somewhere. There are solutions to everything. I sneaked through Rancer with some very valuable small items, right past 'the united' fat blinking asses. For weeks on in. Sometimes you find ways to make big money in eve before you learn the ship fitting basics. The regular peon doesnt understand that, but those of us who have a tendency to attract huge volumes of ISK shouldnt really care. You'll make your fortune back and then some. I did.
Usagi Tsukino Fukumaden	Posted - 2008.03.16 20:56:00 - [234] Necro much? :) Personally, I think suicide ganking should be stopped till CCP teaches CONCORD how to leave and stop lagging up the grid 6 hours after a gank. :( Seiously though, suicide ganking is fine. Don't transport high value goods in an untanked ship. You bring an escort to WTFBBQ the dude who scoops the wreck and/or to remote rep you till CONCORD comes. If you have more than one account, have your main assign your junk to your alt in the form of a courier mission. You probably won't get picked off that way since you cannot scan inside those 'crates', and suiciders are less likely to loose ship and sec status over what might be a bunch of crappy t1 mods. There are ways to be safe. And I really hope the OP wasn't a noob, because if so, some of you guys need to learn how not to be a jerk. Yeah, it was somewhat of a whine thread, but really. If you don't have anything nice to say, STFU and go back to sieging a POS. --- Usagi Tsukino // CEO Fukumaden
Whip Slagcheek Vajayjay	Posted - 2008.03.16 20:57:00 - [235] Originally by: Usagi Tsukino Necro much? :) Personally, I think suicide ganking should be stopped till CCP teaches CONCORD how to leave and stop lagging up the grid 6 hours after a gank. :( Seiously though, suicide ganking is fine. Don't transport high value goods in an untanked ship. You bring an escort to WTFBBQ the dude who scoops the wreck and/or to remote rep you till CONCORD comes. If you have more than one account, have your main assign your junk to your alt in the form of a courier mission. You probably won't get picked off that way since you cannot scan inside those 'crates', and suiciders are less likely to loose ship and sec status over what might be a bunch of crappy t1 mods. There are ways to be safe. And I really hope the OP wasn't a noob, because if so, some of you guys need to learn how not to be a jerk. Yeah, it was somewhat of a whine thread, but really. If you don't have anything nice to say, STFU and go back to sieging a POS. nice boobies
Dianeces Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.16 21:16:00 - [236] Originally by: Usagi Tsukino If you have more than one account, have your main assign your junk to your alt in the form of a courier mission. You probably won't get picked off that way since you cannot scan inside those 'crates', and suiciders are less likely to loose ship and sec status over what might be a bunch of crappy t1 mods. Quote: It always amazes me how many people still believe this. (Hint: That's not true.)
Dristra Shadows of the Dead Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.03.16 21:24:00 - [237] Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 21:00:59 I understand that this is a expensive lesson learned, annoying no doubt but its crazy that players can get away with this in hi sec space where players should be able to carry goods with peace of mind NO, You are never safe in Eve, fear is your only companion! Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Soporo Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.16 21:52:00 - [238] Edited by: Soporo on 16/03/2008 21:53:30 Quote: To be honest, my opinion is penalties that are currently in place for suicide ganking are strong enough as it is. Oh? So the idea of making Concorded ships NOT able to claim insurance benefits I guess you would feel is excessive?
Decker Jones Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.03.16 22:16:00 - [239] Suck it up, nobody likes a whiner. Hire protection, armor your transport and keep your eyes peeled sabrinia.
Freakin Sweet Dragons of Kunark	Posted - 2008.03.18 14:56:00 - [240] Personally I have no problem with pvp, and I like to pvp. And when I took my 200 mil battleship on a 22 system run from highsec to the alliance pos in low sec and hit a 30 man gatecamp I was smiling and laughing all the way to the bank. Man I loved that explosion! It was awesome! But it was my decision. I can't stand people who highsec suicide gank to profit on someone else's misery. The fact is its not even tough for a pirate to suicide gank in high sec. Just about anyone with a month of training in eve can do it. I think the real carebares are the highsec pirates because their too chicken to fight fair. I wouldn't be suprised if they were selling the isk they got from the cargo on your fully loaded obelisk. Since there's no challange ccp should just go ahead and make all sectors in the game 0.0 and leave it at that. Because it sure doesn't look like their going to make it actually take effort to highsec gank.
Blindone1 Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.18 19:24:00 - [241] This is not a complaint, nor am I gonna quit (if I do it's not because of this) The other day, my moneymaking alt was ganked in a 0.5 system while returning from a mission. I lost a 4 Bill ship + fittings (What made the ship expensive was the tanking modules). I don't care much about it. I can afford to get another one, so that's not the problem. I received worst blows when I was starting and ventured in a named fited punisher in low sec, thinking I was safe, and loosing almost everything I had. For the record, I got all my money through "hard work" missioning and trading, and my objective is to support my main which is in a 0.0 corp, so I don't have to waste the little time I have rating. I am at a crossroad now, I really don't know what to do next. I wont get another ship as expensive as that one because I will get ganked again. I will not mission with a lesser tank because the last time I did it I lost my ship due to lag, and after you get used to do something in a effective way, it's to painfull to go back (just imagine going to lvl 1's for a living again...) I don't want to trade because I find it boring as hell (altough it pays better) As it stands now, there is really no point in getting expensive fits because you'll get ganked. I find that the usual "be carefull" advice doesn't apply here: I was using one of the best tanks in game, with no holes. I was not AFK and I did not spend 1 second more than needed outside where I could get probed, that day or any other day. A scout would do nothing because there was just 1 of the attacking ships at the gate when I arrived. No warnings in local. Only 4 BS's took a shot at me. "Provide an escort" it's so dumb I won't even comment. Anyone who say's that, has never been ganked and doesn't have a clue about the short time involved. Go to less populated areas, I did that already, I got money for this ship that way, but it is much harder to make money because the market is generally much worse. I don't think that I could have done anything to prevent the loss other than resorting to not using my hard earned equipment. I agree that there must be a way for high sec ganking (I enjoy pirating and nonconsentual PVP as much as the next man), but there must be some action, that a person can do to avoid that, without it being a PITA. Exp: Spliting freighter cargo into some runs is a PITA. I agree that valuable cargo should be transported in non AFK tanked transport ships, or at least (as I do sometimes, if small enough) fast agile ships. If you do not do that you deserve to die. Heavily tanked ships (like mine) should stand a chance and not diying in a few seconds. I suggest: Concord showing up in x seconds based on the tanking potential of your ship, so if you're not AFK and you fitted it right, you will survive. The formula for the time it takes must be created and tested. Concord imediately breaks the attakers lock when it arrives, this way everything is based on the above formula. I believe that someone who is willing to spend 1 or 2 Bill in tanking modules should be doing enough to travel safely (non AFK) in high sec, because no other action can provide that safety. OFC tech II good fittings should be enough too. People wanting to steal that loot should have to work a little and probe those multi billion ships while in mission, when their tank is already being tested, That way there would be necessary some skill, SP, and tactics. In the meantime my money making alt is going to keep making money the easiest way, ganking others in high sec, exploiting this silly game feature, till I recover my loss This is just my opinion, and I went to all this trouble writing this because I have not seen yet a similar approach to this side of the game. Please comment if you think it's worth your time.
Elis Verone Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.18 19:30:00 - [242] its 100%irelevant what ship you fly in, if the gankers want ya they will get ya.. i lost my damnation the other day.. :0 yep with a damn nice tank.. 30K armor etc.. so its defintly posible..
Yuleth Gix Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.18 20:04:00 - [243] That's just the point. It's way too easy to gank, when you do it you don't feel that there's anything special about the effort involved. there is almost 0 risk from your standpoint you know you'll succeed and the target will die. you will almost 100% lose about 1/10th the isk your target will lose which is sad. Go to any belt you can now, take a frig with a passive targeter and a ship scanner. It's only a matter of time till you find someone with fittings worth ganking. same thing on mission hub gates/station undock points. you can easily gank there and 100% reliably with 0 risk make billions. I'm shocked more aren't doing it yet.
Freakin Sweet Dragons of Kunark	Posted - 2008.03.18 20:35:00 - [244] I'm sure there are going to be more. In fact I predict a eve-online market crash because about 75% are going to say F*** it and stop selling and start ganking themselves. Again its so easy a 1 month toon can gank an itty V loaded with extenders and plates and make a better profit.
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.18 20:37:00 - [245] Originally by: Freakin Sweet I'm sure there are going to be more. In fact I predict a eve-online market crash because about 75% are going to say F*** it and stop selling and start ganking themselves. Again its so easy a 1 month toon can gank an itty V loaded with extenders and plates and make a better profit. I think you are pulling numbers out of your ass and are just another doom sayer that has no basis behind his predictions
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.18 20:44:00 - [246] ::sigh:: Again, really? I'll make it simple: Alts are the reason the suicide ganking risk/reward structure is flawed. 1. Main creates new character. 2. New Character trains to BS 1. 3. New Character suicides until he can't get into high sec. 4. Profit goes to main. 5. Main sells New Character as BS ready. Ignorant noob buys. 6. Profit goes to main. 7. Repeat. There is no exploit/bannable offense here because the character is not being recycled, the character is being sold as a BS quick start to players who know little/nothing about sec status. Ban alts, TBFH. Originally by: CCP Wrangler We won't laugh at you... to your face...
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.18 20:48:00 - [247] Originally by: Nicho Void ::sigh:: Again, really? I'll make it simple: Alts are the reason the suicide ganking risk/reward structure is flawed. 1. Main creates new character. 2. New Character trains to BS 1. 3. New Character suicides until he can't get into high sec. 4. Profit goes to main. 5. Main sells New Character as BS ready. Ignorant noob buys. 6. Profit goes to main. 7. Repeat. There is no exploit/bannable offense here because the character is not being recycled, the character is being sold as a BS quick start to players who know little/nothing about sec status. Ban alts, TBFH. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.18 20:51:00 - [248] Edited by: Nicho Void on 18/03/2008 20:54:58 Originally by: Malcanis I'll take your highly informative and in-depth response to mean "I disagree, good sir." You think I'm wrong? You think the high sec ganking groups are doing so with their mains? Not a chance. Which is too bad, because I think the suicide ganking mechanic is a perfectly acceptable form of game play which is going to get nerfed because of the ridiculous frequency of it. Edit: And to be clear, I'm all for suicide ganking. It's the sec hit and consequence dodging that is utter crap. Originally by: CCP Wrangler We won't laugh at you... to your face...
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.18 20:58:00 - [249] No, I disagree because: (1) you're talking utter rubbish about selling "BS ready" alts. Show me two successful sales of a -4.9 sec rating, "BS ready alt" or admit your evidence for this comes from your rectum. (2) you propose banning alts, disregarding the fact that most alts are not used for suicide ganking. (3) the "problem" with suicide ganking is that after 5 years of EvE there are still moops who AFK about with valuables in their untanked ship's hold. The only way to fix that problem is to ban people who get suicide ganked because they're literally too stupid to be allowed to fly a spaceship in a video game. tl;dr version: CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Nicho Void Hyper-Nova Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.03.18 21:13:00 - [250] Edited by: Nicho Void on 18/03/2008 21:13:40 Originally by: Malcanis (1) you're talking utter rubbish about selling "BS ready" alts. Show me two successful sales of a -4.9 sec rating, "BS ready alt" or admit your evidence for this comes from your rectum. Fine, that was straight out of my ass. No one has ever heard of a player purchasing an alt and being surprised that he has red bars. Originally by: Malcanis (2) you propose banning alts, disregarding the fact that most alts are not used for suicide ganking. I propose banning alts for a whole host of reasons pertaining to the imbalance caused by them, suicide ganking being the least of them. Originally by: Malcanis (3) the "problem" with suicide ganking is that after 5 years of EvE there are still moops who AFK about with valuables in their untanked ship's hold. The only way to fix that problem is to ban people who get suicide ganked because they're literally too stupid to be allowed to fly a spaceship in a video game. Oh I see, you're one of the "gankers can only kill morons" crowd. I realize tl;dr is probably tattooed somewhere on your body, but take the time to read back through this thread and look at the numerous examples of skilled pilots losing well fitted ships. Edit: Elis Verone's post on this page is a good example. Originally by: CCP Wrangler We won't laugh at you... to your face...
Nyabinghi Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.18 21:19:00 - [251] I believe what we are seeing is an increase in the player type who doesn't care about any of EVE's game dynamics beyond quickly getting in a ship and blowing up other ships. Dark days indeed for well trained freighter pilots, since it only takes a few one month old BS pilots to gank. Mind you EVE has always had the PKers and those who spent all of their EVE time looking for exploits, loop-holes and game breakers, but it seems we are seeing more of a dominance of that player type everyday. I see this as a byproduct of where CCP has put their focus in gameplay over the years, moving away from any purposeful congregation of game players and more towards a straight ahead shooter free for all. ***
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.18 21:25:00 - [252] Originally by: Nyabinghi I believe what we are seeing is an increase in the player type who doesn't care about any of EVE's game dynamics beyond quickly getting in a ship and blowing up other ships. Dark days indeed for well trained freighter pilots, since it only takes a few one month old BS pilots to gank. Mind you EVE has always had the PKers and those who spent all of their EVE time looking for exploits, loop-holes and game breakers, but it seems we are seeing more of a dominance of that player type everyday. I see this as a byproduct of where CCP has put their focus in gameplay over the years, moving away from any purposeful congregation of game players and more towards a straight ahead shooter free for all. Yes it is dark days for afk solo pilots
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.18 21:50:00 - [253] Originally by: Nicho Void Edited by: Nicho Void on 18/03/2008 21:13:40 Originally by: Malcanis (1) you're talking utter rubbish about selling "BS ready" alts. Show me two successful sales of a -4.9 sec rating, "BS ready alt" or admit your evidence for this comes from your rectum. Fine, that was straight out of my ass. No one has ever heard of a player purchasing an alt and being surprised that he has red bars. Originally by: Malcanis (2) you propose banning alts, disregarding the fact that most alts are not used for suicide ganking. I propose banning alts for a whole host of reasons pertaining to the imbalance caused by them, suicide ganking being the least of them. Originally by: Malcanis (3) the "problem" with suicide ganking is that after 5 years of EvE there are still moops who AFK about with valuables in their untanked ship's hold. The only way to fix that problem is to ban people who get suicide ganked because they're literally too stupid to be allowed to fly a spaceship in a video game. Oh I see, you're one of the "gankers can only kill morons" crowd. I realize tl;dr is probably tattooed somewhere on your body, but take the time to read back through this thread and look at the numerous examples of skilled pilots losing well fitted ships. Edit: Elis Verone's post on this page is a good example. Sec status must be disclosed when selling a character. Failing to do so is grounds for having the transfer reversed. What is an alt? If I had a 10M SP mining alt, would I lose that under your proposal? Do I get my ISK back? Asking for banning something because it can be abused is very poor logic. Additionally, it has not been in any way proven that suicide ganking is a problem for anyone except the gankees. In fact I will once again assert that suicide ganking is a NECESSARY part of the game. It is absolutely REQUIRED. And nooooooo, not only stupid people get ganked. The Bob freighter is a prime example of a non-stupid player getting ganked (as far as I know). He's also a prime example of the requirement for suicide ganking to be possible. But the same mechanisms that stop alliances at war hiding their haulers in NPC corps also mean that stupid players not involved in wars can also be ganked. And you notice how it's never the smart, well fitted players who did warp to zero that come on to the forum crying? These are the guys most entitled to cry, and yet they don't. But no: every single time, without fail, it ALWAYS comes out that complainers were AFKing, usually in hilariously weak ships. The only way to stop stupid, careless people from losing their stuff is to disable non-consensual PvP. I'd rather they left the game. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Nyabinghi Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.18 22:14:00 - [254] When I first herd about suicide ganks it was one Alliance move against another Aliiance they were at war with, Probably BoB vs somebody. Then it became the new cool thing to do for any bunch of players who were bored and looking for an easy way to blow up ships with little or no sacrifice. It seems suicide ganking is defended by those who simply want everyone to play the game their way and no other. Which as it turns (SURPRISE) a way that favors them completely. ***
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:31:00 - [255] Originally by: Nyabinghi When I first herd about suicide ganks it was one Alliance move against another Aliiance they were at war with, Probably BoB vs somebody. Then it became the new cool thing to do for any bunch of players who were bored and looking for an easy way to blow up ships with little or no sacrifice. It seems suicide ganking is defended by those who simply want everyone to play the game their way and no other. Which as it turns (SURPRISE) a way that favors them completely. Isn't that what the people who want to be allowed to endlessly accumulate ISK with zero risk want too? EvE is specifically based on non-consensual PvP. It was specifically designed that way from the start. That's what the Devs had in mind when they created the game. You might as well play football and then complain that there's too much tackling and you keep losing the ball to other players. Non-consensual PvP isn't a flaw in the game. It is the game. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Blindone1 Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.19 00:46:00 - [256] Originally by: Malcanis And you notice how it's never the smart, well fitted players who did warp to zero that come on to the forum crying? These are the guys most entitled to cry, and yet they don't. But no: every single time, without fail, it ALWAYS comes out that complainers were AFKing, usually in hilariously weak ships. This is sheer ignorance! As I posted earlier, I was not AFK, I had a Uber tank turned on, I have very good skills, I was exposed only the time it took to align, and I just got out once (I must have been marked to die some days(s) before). I am also not complaining about suicide ganking, I am just saying that it must be balanced, to keep some risk for carebears and gankers, and also to involve some skill by both sides. The way it is now, it's just the easiest way to make good money, with no risk. Exactly what many say about mission runners. I will be doing it to get rich fast. Just sit one day outside a mission hub, with a ship scanner and a passive targeter, take notes on mission running players and their ships. When you find a few with fittings worth 1 Bill, wait for one of them at a gate with a couple of friends, or even better scan them in mission (less peolple needed and less to split the reward), and proffit. 4 ravens with caldary navy torps are enough to kill any ship up to battleship size, regardless of their tank and whatever defensive action they may take. Tell me other activity in EVE that takes so little effort and risk to make the kind of money this does. There's nothing the victim can do, other than stay docked or undocking with less than 100 mill worth loot/fittings. I don't know about freighter though, must try to get ganked on test server to see the firepower it takes.
Kahega Amielden Legacy Syndicate space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.19 01:01:00 - [257] Don't fly expensive ** in t1 haulers? If you are carrying something incredibly expensive, outfit a t2 hauler (either fit a BR for fastalign/warp or tank the living ** out of a DST. NO CARGO EXPANDERS).
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.03.19 01:06:00 - [258] For a good time shout large amounts of obscenities out of your window whenever you see a "hi sec means no suicide ganking" thread. If someone asks you what the hell you're doing, just tell them "it's okay, someone is being a wussy on the Eve forums tbh".
tiffany davis Perkone	Posted - 2008.03.19 01:33:00 - [259] Most players will experience suicide ganking, I've been there. Most points are valid, but at the end of the day, CCP made Ganking part of EVE, I petitioned them and they said it was part of the play, end of. My suggestion is do like some have said, tank, check the route as you go, if transporting $$$$$$$ then take a buddy to forward you. If you have no buddy available then take a ship that can take 60,000+ HP, usually a big freighter or BS. My Alt is 12 weeks and has freighter, so it is possible. The days of shipping in small ships is dead, only newbies do it the frigate way. I have no cure only suggestions. CCP has no answers as it's part of there plan. I feel with all that have been ganked, it hurts. Place goods in Secure containers, they tend to blow aswell :) T
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 03:20:00 - [260] Originally by: Blindone1 Originally by: Malcanis And you notice how it's never the smart, well fitted players who did warp to zero that come on to the forum crying? These are the guys most entitled to cry, and yet they don't. But no: every single time, without fail, it ALWAYS comes out that complainers were AFKing, usually in hilariously weak ships. This is sheer ignorance! As I posted earlier, I was not AFK, I had a Uber tank turned on, I have very good skills, I was exposed only the time it took to align, and I just got out once (I must have been marked to die some days(s) before). I am also not complaining about suicide ganking, I am just saying that it must be balanced, to keep some risk for carebears and gankers, and also to involve some skill by both sides. The way it is now, it's just the easiest way to make good money, with no risk. Exactly what many say about mission runners. I will be doing it to get rich fast. Just sit one day outside a mission hub, with a ship scanner and a passive targeter, take notes on mission running players and their ships. When you find a few with fittings worth 1 Bill, wait for one of them at a gate with a couple of friends, or even better scan them in mission (less peolple needed and less to split the reward), and proffit. 4 ravens with caldary navy torps are enough to kill any ship up to battleship size, regardless of their tank and whatever defensive action they may take. Tell me other activity in EVE that takes so little effort and risk to make the kind of money this does. There's nothing the victim can do, other than stay docked or undocking with less than 100 mill worth loot/fittings. I don't know about freighter though, must try to get ganked on test server to see the firepower it takes. Ironically enough, running a blockade runner to Jita and back nets me almost a billion or so when I bother to do it. (Not so often, - I don't need that many billions that often). Takes about 90 minutes each way, plus an hour so or docked up fiddling about on the market. I dunno, 175-250M/hr seems like pretty good ISk to me. Maybe you're less easily impressed. So tell me... why, when I had 300k Zydrine and Megacyte, plus a load of salvage, and various pieces of named/faction loot to make up the volume... why did I not get ganked on any of the occasions I have done this? Is it because they trembled in fear at my incredibly deadly PvP reputation? Do they fear the relentless wrath of my region-devouring alliance? Did the virtue shining from my saintly visage inspire them to cast away their weapons and lead humble lives devoted to selfless virtue? Perhaps the unearthly beauty of my sister bedazzled them in to thinking that sparing my meager wealth would get them a date? Really, I'm interested to hear you theory. Obviously it wasn't the ship, which was fitted as follows: Viator (Evasive maneuvering 5, Spaceship Command 5, Navigation 5) Improved Cloak T2 Y-T8 MWD, EM resist amp Thermal resist amp Inertial Stabiliser II, 2x Nanofibre II 2xLow Friction Nozzle Joints I mean the mere fact that this ship gets into warp as fast as an interceptor and has 2-point warp strength and 9 AU/s warp speed, and was being scouted by a covops-fitted ship is, as you have clearly demonstrated and convincingly argued, utterly irrelevant. So why, pray tell me, is it that my cargos were not ganked? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Methesda The Avengers	Posted - 2008.03.19 03:42:00 - [261] Edited by: Methesda on 19/03/2008 03:44:11 Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 20:51:01 500m of zydrine lost....What is the point of having hi security areas where players can sucicide gank you? Victim: Razen21 Alliance: Elemental Fusion Corp: Black Thorne Corporation Destroyed: Bestower System: Kusomonmon Security: 0.8 Involved parties: Name: Evil M (laid the final blow) Security: -0.4 Alliance: Cult of War Corp: Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Ship: Hurricane Weapon: 425mm AutoCannon I Destroyed items: Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II i spent most of the week getting that 500m worth of zydrine :( if it had gotten destroyed at least i'd have the satisfaction. This is very...frustrating. LOL. "Not only was I pretty stupid, but I was stupid enough to tell everyone with an interest in suicide ganking that I am REALLY stupid enough to carry around really expensive **** in a golden tin can!" GG EDIT: Maybe I should clarify a little bit. I sypmathise, I really do! It sucks to be suicide ganked. A friend of mine recently got hit up for a conservatice 70 million, but HE had the good grace and experience to say 'AH well, I was afk flying in a paper-boat and I got caught with my pants down.' YOU on the other hand...
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 03:47:00 - [262] Originally by: Methesda Edited by: Methesda on 19/03/2008 03:44:11 Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 20:51:01 500m of zydrine lost....What is the point of having hi security areas where players can sucicide gank you? Victim: Razen21 Alliance: Elemental Fusion Corp: Black Thorne Corporation Destroyed: Bestower System: Kusomonmon Security: 0.8 Involved parties: Name: Evil M (laid the final blow) Security: -0.4 Alliance: Cult of War Corp: Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Ship: Hurricane Weapon: 425mm AutoCannon I Destroyed items: Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II i spent most of the week getting that 500m worth of zydrine :( if it had gotten destroyed at least i'd have the satisfaction. This is very...frustrating. LOL. "Not only was I pretty stupid, but I was stupid enough to tell everyone with an interest in suicide ganking that I am REALLY stupid enough to carry around really expensive **** in a golden tin can!" GG EDIT: Maybe I should clarify a little bit. I sypmathise, I really do! It sucks to be suicide ganked. A friend of mine recently got hit up for a conservatice 70 million, but HE had the good grace and experience to say 'AH well, I was afk flying in a paper-boat and I got caught with my pants down.' YOU on the other hand... ...posted again. Check #7 and prepare your apology. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Cottage Pie Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.19 04:08:00 - [263] Yes suicide ganking is broken, there's utterly no risk in it (the punishment doesn't exist as suicide ganks are engineered to always be profitable, your ship is simply ammunition, 100% insured ammunition at that lmao), however that's no excuse to honour tank yourself in a ship packed with half a bil of minerals. tbh i felt nervous as f**k hauling just 50mil in a 'tanked' t1 indy, anything more and it would be in a plated combat ship (works for modules, salvage, high value/low volume stuff but not minerals), because that's how low the risk is in suicide ganking - there is none. Suicide ganking IS to all intents and purposes avoiding concord.
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.19 04:14:00 - [264] Originally by: Cottage Pie Yes suicide ganking is broken, there's utterly no risk in it (the punishment doesn't exist as suicide ganks are engineered to always be profitable, your ship is simply ammunition, 100% insured ammunition at that lmao), however that's no excuse to honour tank yourself in a ship packed with half a bil of minerals. tbh i felt nervous as f**k hauling just 50mil in a 'tanked' t1 indy, anything more and it would be in a plated combat ship (works for modules, salvage, high value/low volume stuff but not minerals), because that's how low the risk is in suicide ganking - there is none. Suicide ganking IS to all intents and purposes avoiding concord. remove all insurance then problem solved
Cottage Pie Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.19 04:18:00 - [265] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Cottage Pie Yes suicide ganking is broken, there's utterly no risk in it (the punishment doesn't exist as suicide ganks are engineered to always be profitable, your ship is simply ammunition, 100% insured ammunition at that lmao), however that's no excuse to honour tank yourself in a ship packed with half a bil of minerals. tbh i felt nervous as f**k hauling just 50mil in a 'tanked' t1 indy, anything more and it would be in a plated combat ship (works for modules, salvage, high value/low volume stuff but not minerals), because that's how low the risk is in suicide ganking - there is none. Suicide ganking IS to all intents and purposes avoiding concord. remove all insurance then problem solved that'd work. as it is now you actually get paid to suicide your ship (salvage your own ships wreck for a possible net profit on that alone! loool) into someone and yes it's funny but meh.
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.19 04:31:00 - [266] Originally by: Cottage Pie that'd work. as it is now you actually get paid to suicide your ship (salvage your own ships wreck for a possible net profit on that alone! loool) into someone and yes it's funny but meh. What ships drop salvage worth more than their original cost?
Jesnen D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.19 04:35:00 - [267] This is my reply to another thread on suicide ganking as they are all generally the same. I think the greatest thing about suicide ganking is that it places that bit of paranoia in everybody's mind. Cmon people, that's instant immersion right there, remember why you started playing eve? To be immersed in an environment where you could be whatever you were smart enough, determined enough, or lucky enough to be. Why homogenize eve by taking away creative careers such as this? It's like guns in America, there's way too many, we do stupid things with them, and they get us in trouble with the police, but to take them away is un-American. To take away suicide ganking is un-Eve. Also if a game makes you scared, paranoid, angry, or happy then you probably got your money's worth so stop complaining everybody.
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.19 04:37:00 - [268] Originally by: Jesnen This is my reply to another thread on suicide ganking as they are all generally the same. I think the greatest thing about suicide ganking is that it places that bit of paranoia in everybody's mind. Cmon people, that's instant immersion right there, remember why you started playing eve? To be immersed in an environment where you could be whatever you were smart enough, determined enough, or lucky enough to be. Why homogenize eve by taking away creative careers such as this? It's like guns in America, there's way too many, we do stupid things with them, and they get us in trouble with the police, but to take them away is un-American. To take away suicide ganking is un-Eve. Also if a game makes you scared, paranoid, angry, or happy then you probably got your money's worth so stop complaining everybody. but that are immoral and wrong
viod hawk Archron Dusyfe Industries space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:08:00 - [269] i have ganked and been ganked. welcome to eve a game that is geared to being as minimally restrictive as is possible. having said that.... what? you guys that cry about being blown up , big deal,,if it wasnt for those little surprises , the ones you cant predict than eve would just be like a ton of other games where you mindlessly do the same thing over and over watching some numbers accumulate. you can do that with a calculator. so , quit crying and play the game or go play something with infinite lives and no death penalties AND NO REAL REWARD. you wouldnt know what SWEET was if you had never tasted sour.
Theladder Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 09:40:00 - [270] Remove the insurance pay out per suicide ganking in highsec space, problem solved
banannagirl The U-B-H-C	Posted - 2008.03.19 09:50:00 - [271] Originally by: Razen21 Edited by: Razen21 on 16/09/2007 20:51:01 500m of zydrine lost....What is the point of having hi security areas where players can sucicide gank you? Victim: Razen21 Alliance: Elemental Fusion Corp: Black Thorne Corporation Destroyed: Bestower System: Kusomonmon Security: 0.8 Involved parties: Name: Evil M (laid the final blow) Security: -0.4 Alliance: Cult of War Corp: Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Ship: Hurricane Weapon: 425mm AutoCannon I Destroyed items: Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II Expanded Cargohold II i spent most of the week getting that 500m worth of zydrine :( if it had gotten destroyed at least i'd have the satisfaction. This is very...frustrating. carrying 500 m in a hurricane ... USE something fast - real fast ..... ! like a cruiser --- cant see how the hell you got blown up anyway ... with wtz. Use a frig always ... like a rifter ... with mwd and stab and expanders on .. or a covert ops for zyd and stuff ...! well done gankers .. congrats ...! waaaa waaaa waaaa regards BG Link removed, advertising services for real world money is not allowed on the forums - Wrangler
Vincent S Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 10:09:00 - [272] Originally by: banannagirl carrying 500 m in a hurricane ... USE something fast - real fast ..... ! like a cruiser --- cant see how the hell you got blown up anyway ... with wtz. Use a frig always ... like a rifter ... with mwd and stab and expanders on .. or a covert ops for zyd and stuff ...! well done gankers .. congrats ...! waaaa waaaa waaaa regards BG - Can't understand a simple killmail - Can't string together a coherent sentence without sounding like a 13 year old AOL ****** - Signs her posts Conclusion: Get out To the people thinking removing insurance would solve this "problem" - Get real. A VEXOR can put out 740 DPS with max skills, almost equal to a gank battleship. A vexor costs 4m. Do you really think removing insurance would change anything? Also, I think the whiners in this thread are pathetic. Eve is a harsh game, and you can either adapt or cry like little girls because a mean ganker blew up your stuff. Here's a time-tested EVE lesson: Don't fly what you can't afford to lose! I think suicide ganking of officer-fitted mission runners is the best thing to ever happen to this game. Introducing some risk to the mindless mission running drones in highsec has been long overdue.
Theladder Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 10:42:00 - [273] Originally by: Vincent S Originally by: banannagirl carrying 500 m in a hurricane ... USE something fast - real fast ..... ! like a cruiser --- cant see how the hell you got blown up anyway ... with wtz. Use a frig always ... like a rifter ... with mwd and stab and expanders on .. or a covert ops for zyd and stuff ...! well done gankers .. congrats ...! waaaa waaaa waaaa regards BG - Can't understand a simple killmail - Can't string together a coherent sentence without sounding like a 13 year old AOL ****** - Signs her posts Conclusion: Get out To the people thinking removing insurance would solve this "problem" - Get real. A VEXOR can put out 740 DPS with max skills, almost equal to a gank battleship. A vexor costs 4m. Do you really think removing insurance would change anything? Also, I think the whiners in this thread are pathetic. Eve is a harsh game, and you can either adapt or cry like little girls because a mean ganker blew up your stuff. Here's a time-tested EVE lesson: Don't fly what you can't afford to lose! I think suicide ganking of officer-fitted mission runners is the best thing to ever happen to this game. Introducing some risk to the mindless mission running drones in highsec has been long overdue. I got 621 dps with 4 T2 blasters + 5* hammerheads II on a vexor it is quite decent idd but it is not as cheap as i thought it would be. 1m for insurance + approx 10m fitting + 4m ships? 15m per gank. The thing is, not every hauler has expensive goods inside of its cargo, if you are not afk hauling stuff in highsec, the suicide ganker will have to scan your ship first or give a random shot... if the ganker isn't lucky, he will lose 15m and get nothing besides a poorly T1 fitted hauler
Ioci Ioci Exploration	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:09:00 - [274] I posted some thoughts, got sent back to the login screen and poof all gone. So goes the toilet bowl timesink of eve. Honest? Belt rat or become a 'mindless mission runner'. It's cash in the bank. No gank can take it from you. Fly junk, fit junk. Loots work. Let someone else make the hundreds of runs in a tanked out BS for zydrine orders.
Blindone1 Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.19 17:08:00 - [275] Once again I state that I agree with suicide ganking, but everyone must realizae that something is broken here, and some changes are needed. Malcanis posted a terrific, uncachable, cheap, Viator setup. I would gladly transport all my assets in it, knowing that I would be 100% safe in Empire with that setup and ship. The only drawback is that it can only carry 3750m3!!! So if your solution to safe hauling is that, you must be joking. As a matter of fact I don't mind taking a 10 Bill estamel Invuln field inside my shuttle in high sec, because the shuttle has all the tank it's needed. I do it frequentely with 2+ Bill inside, with no fear. What I fear is taking out my mission running ship, because then, the only factor relevant to my survival is if I get randomly scaned or not. The only way you can tank suicide ganking is by aligning faster than they can put a lock on you. Obviously mission runners and serious haulers have no chance to escape. Theres no shield or armor tank with even a remote chance. Obviously dumb gankers who don't know what they're doing may screw things up... The only thing mission runners can do is leave the multi billion ships docked, and haulers have to split their cargo, making the game a real PITA. There's also no risk for the gankers, if they do their homework, proffit is assured. Anyone who doesn't agree that this is out of balance must be either biased or blind. I use to play on both sides of the fence, so I think my view is balanced. I just ask for some changes to tweak the chances for both sides. Gankers must have a chance to profit, and carebears/haulers must have a chance to survive an attack, providing both sides did some preparation. The way it is it's a completely broken game mechanic. If you have a officer fitted CNR or Golem the only smart move is to run missions with a tech 2 fitted ship. What a great game mechanic!!
Khalen Orerunner Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.19 17:21:00 - [276] The fix for high sec barge ganking is providing a barge that can put up a better defence at the cost of storage for the extra shield and armor equiptment. I know you can mine in a domi with lasers instead of strip miners but you cant mine ice that way.
Mighty Dread Republic University	Posted - 2008.03.19 17:44:00 - [277] If no one has done it yet I suggest setting up a channel ingame for haulers and miners to report camps and possible suicide squads. Of course you can't be AFK to take advantage of this.
Lyria Skydancer Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.19 17:46:00 - [278] Originally by: Razen21 OP WHINE Hahaha, can I have it? You know....your stuff. Can I have it? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:15:00 - [279] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Razen21 OP WHINE Hahaha, can I have it? You know....your stuff. Can I have it? No because the pirates stole it from his crappy Bestower!
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:26:00 - [280] Originally by: Blindone1 Once again I state that I agree with suicide ganking, but everyone must realizae that something is broken here, and some changes are needed. Malcanis posted a terrific, uncachable, cheap, Viator setup. I would gladly transport all my assets in it, knowing that I would be 100% safe in Empire with that setup and ship. The only drawback is that it can only carry 3750m3!!! So if your solution to safe hauling is that, you must be joking. As a matter of fact I don't mind taking a 10 Bill estamel Invuln field inside my shuttle in high sec, because the shuttle has all the tank it's needed. I do it frequentely with 2+ Bill inside, with no fear. What I fear is taking out my mission running ship, because then, the only factor relevant to my survival is if I get randomly scaned or not. The only way you can tank suicide ganking is by aligning faster than they can put a lock on you. Obviously mission runners and serious haulers have no chance to escape. Theres no shield or armor tank with even a remote chance. Obviously dumb gankers who don't know what they're doing may screw things up... The only thing mission runners can do is leave the multi billion ships docked, and haulers have to split their cargo, making the game a real PITA. There's also no risk for the gankers, if they do their homework, proffit is assured. Anyone who doesn't agree that this is out of balance must be either biased or blind. I use to play on both sides of the fence, so I think my view is balanced. I just ask for some changes to tweak the chances for both sides. Gankers must have a chance to profit, and carebears/haulers must have a chance to survive an attack, providing both sides did some preparation. The way it is it's a completely broken game mechanic. If you have a officer fitted CNR or Golem the only smart move is to run missions with a tech 2 fitted ship. What a great game mechanic!! Actually, with 1 GSC and 2 LSC that Viator can carry close to 5000m^3 For high value cargo like Zydrine, T2 mods, Salvage, that really is enough. No-one is going to gank your expanded ity5 full of Scordite or T1 mission junk. There are several things that mission runners can do to protect their officer-fitted ships - there was a thread about exactly this topic not so long ago, but I'll recap: (1) Don't use it for every mission. For stupidly easy stuff like "Duo of Death" just use a t1 battleship. (2) Vary your patterns a bit. Don't have the same fit every time. (3) Pay attention to your surroundings, use a scanner now and then (4) If you have a leadership/salvaging alt, use it to scout out stations/gates (5) If someone really wants to kill your ship they can. Deal with it. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Blindone1 Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.19 18:49:00 - [281] Malcanis, 1) Good one. It may delay my death to the next mission. 2) The expensive stuff I had was for tank, because I lost my previous BS to lag! I think a perma running tank is very usefull to avoid lag, unfortunately they usually don't come cheap. There was not much to vary, anyhow on the other side of the gate they can scan people to make sure. 3) Only 5 ships at the gate when I jumped. If i avoid jumping in system with that many I won't go far in Empire. 4) Same as above 5) Yes, But I still think that it needs balancing

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