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Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
6
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Posted - 2012.01.23 22:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Quote:The problem with a range bonus to missiles is that missileGÇÖs weakness become more and more pronounced and thus less useful in PVP as their engagement ranges increases. ... Except nobody is forcing Drakes to fire further, and at the ranges they currently fire at the missiles will get there faster. Simple solution: continue using current engagement ranges, and watch as your missiles fly to their targets much quicker than before. Did you really need me to spell that out or do you just have no idea about missiles? Quote:Caracal/Rupture rubbish And exactly what relevence does this have? People use Drakes because they put out solid DPS to comparatively long ranges while packing a good 80k EHP (before fleet boosts.) A better comparison for you to make would be arty canes vs Drakes. To save you the EFTing and typing I'll let you know how that works out: the Drakes are better.
Are you serously suggesting that missiles mearly getting to their targets faster is a bonus on par with what other BCs get? Why not just suggest they get black camo bonus instead for all the use it would be....
And I use caracal/rupture example becuase it's the closest ship to what the drake WILL be. No piont in comparing the CURRENT drake when we are talking a future changes. |
Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
6
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Posted - 2012.01.23 22:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
Feligast wrote:death2alldrakes
Death to horrible minmater ship game design. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
102
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 22:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
Quote:Are you serously suggesting that missiles mearly getting to their targets faster is a bonus on par with what other BCs get? Why not just suggest they get black camo bonus instead for all the use it would be.... I'm not exactly unhappy about being able to lob HAMs 30km either, but yes it is. The resist bonus had to go, and this isn't a bad replacement.
Quote:And I use caracal/rupture example becuase it's the closest ship to what the drake WILL be. No piont in comparing the CURRENT drake when we are talking a future changes. Right, except the Caracal is nothing like what the Drake will be. They happen to share a bonus, that's where the similarities end. The Drake will still be able to mount a tank of around 60k EHP, as well as solid range and DPS. Gun using long ranged ships have to compromise in all sorts of areas and can never get the kind of well balanced fit the Drake does. (FYI, it also tracks like **** and is locked into one damage type at long range.)
If the Caracal wasn't utterly gimped by poor power grid, you might have a decent argument - but right now it's laughable. |
Caliph Muhammed
Caldari Investment and Security Industries Innovia Alliance
62
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 23:48:00 -
[34] - Quote
What's the caldari solo pvp ship? Disruptor range is 24km. I don't need a velocity bonus to hit that. Screw a fleet. I like 1v1. I will fleet if the opportunity presents itself but if I have to base my sub off of finding someone else everytime I want to do something I can quit and find a new game. I don't like to hang on the "i quit" argument in a debate but these changes are unnecessary, they screw the solo guy trying to pvp in a reasonably cost effective ship with missiles. The other option is a cloaky tengu with mediocre damage at a 500mil price point. Unless you want a uncloaked solo pvp ship. Then the damage isn't quite mediocre but good luck sustaining Tengu losses financially.
Keep the resists. Lose the damage bonus for a rof bonus to open up omni missile packages and "slightly" cut back on the base shields of the ship. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
102
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 00:19:00 -
[35] - Quote
The trouble isn't with the soloers, it's the fact the ship scales ludicrously well in gangs (in particular with logis). So you got a slightly less solo-friendly bonus? Suck it up. Not every bonus can cater to solo play, just like not all of them cater well to fleets (I'm looking at you, Hyperion).
Everyone is acting like the lost resist bonus is the end of the world, but the Drake will still be getting a 60-65k EHP tank which is easily on par with the other BCs. |
Zi'Boo
Zi'Corp
29
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 06:38:00 -
[36] - Quote
Caliph Muhammed wrote:What's the caldari solo pvp ship? Disruptor range is 24km. I don't need a velocity bonus to hit that. Screw a fleet. I like 1v1..
You do if you're using HAMs.
Besides IMHO all tier 2 BC should be brought closer to their tier 1 counterparts, and then balanced between themselves, just so that T1 cruisers have a reason to exist. |
Hans Momaki
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.01.24 07:48:00 -
[37] - Quote
nerfing drake is no viable option. This won't fix any problem, except having the most used ship removed for no reason. Just alpha those 80k EHP drakes, problem solved.
Incase they give it a crap buff like this, it's just one more reason to train Lolmatar with stupid OP-AC's. |
Marko box
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
9
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Posted - 2012.01.24 12:42:00 -
[38] - Quote
ITS A DAMN BUFF TO DRAKE FFS DID U EVER FLY ONE IN PVP????????? |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
103
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 13:03:00 -
[39] - Quote
Quote:nerfing drake is no viable option. This won't fix any problem, except having the most used ship removed for no reason. Just alpha those 80k EHP drakes, problem solved. Umm, so let me get this straight, you're saying Drakes are fine because they can be alpha'd by ships that cost twice as much and have much higher skill reqs? Yeah, you're an idiot.
Quote:ITS A DAMN BUFF TO DRAKE FFS DID U EVER FLY ONE IN PVP????????? Oh look, someone who actually knows what they're talking about. I was starting to think they didn't exist. |
Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
7
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Posted - 2012.01.24 13:12:00 -
[40] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Quote:nerfing drake is no viable option. This won't fix any problem, except having the most used ship removed for no reason. Just alpha those 80k EHP drakes, problem solved. Umm, so let me get this straight, you're saying Drakes are fine because they can be alpha'd by ships that cost twice as much and have much higher skill reqs? Yeah, you're an idiot. Quote:ITS A DAMN BUFF TO DRAKE FFS DID U EVER FLY ONE IN PVP????????? Oh look, someone who actually knows what they're talking about. I was starting to think they didn't exist. Let me just spell this out to the whiners: The total nerf from this is bringing Drakes down from 80k EHP to around 60-65. Hardly crippling, is it? The total buff from this is better range on HAMs, better performance at long range with HMLs, and better damage application with both thanks to true selectable damage type.
I think the idiot is the person(s) who have been presented with pages full of actual hard data and STILL continue to post unsupported counter claims containg no actual data without actually READING what has been posted before.
NO missle velocity bonus is NO bonus at all. If you disagree, READ my above post on WHY MISSLE ARE BAD LONG RANGE WEAPONS. I explain why in great detail.
and BTW...it doesn't matter WHAT ships I used in my example becuase the scenario problems are applicable to ANY missle boat. |
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Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
103
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Posted - 2012.01.24 13:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Quote:NO missle velocity bonus is NO bonus at all. If you disagree, READ my above post on WHY MISSLE ARE BAD LONG RANGE WEAPONS. I explain why in great detail. And then I explained why you're full of ****. Here, I'll even re-post my rebuttal to you so you don't have to scroll up:
Quote:The problem with a range bonus to missiles is that missileGÇÖs weakness become more and more pronounced and thus less useful in PVP as their engagement ranges increases.
... Except nobody is forcing Drakes to fire further, and at the ranges they currently fire at the missiles will get there faster. Simple solution: continue using current engagement ranges, and watch as your missiles fly to their targets much quicker than before. Did you really need me to spell that out or do you just have no idea about missiles?
Quote:Caracal/Rupture rubbish
And exactly what relevence does this have? People use Drakes because they put out solid DPS to comparatively long ranges while packing a good 80k EHP (before fleet boosts.) A better comparison for you to make would be arty canes vs Drakes. To save you the EFTing and typing I'll let you know how that works out: the Drakes are better.
Quote:and BTW...it doesn't matter WHAT ships I used in my example becuase the scenario problems are applicable to ANY missle boat. Yeah it actually does, because as I said - the only thing the Drake and Caracal have in common is the bonus. Beyond that it's apples and oranges, and what you need to be comparing is the Drake compared to other BCs - where it comes out on top by a large margin.
But hey, if guns are so much better at long range, please show me your arty Hurricane that can put out 460 DPS with an 80k tank and range of 70km. You're posting all this flawed figures crap, while neglecting the tiny little problem that people use Drakes in enormous blobs and do so for a reason. (And, I should add, use missiles out to mid-long ranges with no issues whatsoever.) |
Sashi Serakhoi
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
3
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Posted - 2012.01.24 14:09:00 -
[42] - Quote
As a new player with one Drake toon who can now fit it fully T2 and has been getting into some PVP, I do not like the sound of this. I suppose if it was more clear what the _reason_ to make any changes at all were then it might seem less concerning.
I just don't see the problem really. Drake seems to hover in the top 4 of the kbs, tis true. But as the OP pointed out, the top 20 is dominated by Winmatar. Any "imbalance" to the Drake would seem to be overshadowed by imbalance in the Hurricane, Maelstrom, etc. Thus, irrespective of what effects the proposed changes would have on game dynamics (which NONE of you can predict for certain BTW) the need to make any changes at all is not apparent to me.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
If you want to convince people it needs fixing then convince us it's broke. Seems a bit hard to argue there is a real Drake imbalance when it is pretty much the only Caldari ship in the top 20 . . . *ADDIT* Ah my bad . . . okay so THREE Caldari ships that tend to be in the top 20 and 13 Winmatar . . . yeah, not the same as only one Caldari, but still seems pretty compelling prima facie evidence of exceptional need to change some Winmatar before change any Caldari.
BTW, I also don't see the need to resort to derogations like "whiner" and "level 1 skilled" noob, etc. You don't make a more compelling argument by patronizing or belittlling your counterpart on the other side of the debate. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
103
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 14:16:00 -
[43] - Quote
You act like a winmatar nerf isn't on the cards at all. There are a fair few OP ships in this game, but CCP can only tackle so much at once - and a simple, easy rebalance to one ship is a lot easier than going over an entire race.
The Drake is overpowered for one simple reason: it can pack DPS, tank and range into one fit with no sacrifices. Winmatar are overpowered for a vast multitude of reasons and will need more time to be properly looked over.
Quote:I suppose if it was more clear what the _reason_ to make any changes at all were then it might seem less concerning. ^ See above.
I've also yet to see anyone refute my point that this change is, at worst, a minor nerf and at best something of a buff. The Drake still has an excellent tank, and is now far more flexible than it was.
Another thing people quoting kill statistics tend to overlook, is that you can't just look at the Drake in the context of most-used ships - you need to look at how it compares to other battlecruisers. As soon as you do that, it starts ringing some major alarm bells. |
Sashi Serakhoi
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
3
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Posted - 2012.01.24 14:29:00 -
[44] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:You act like a winmatar nerf isn't on the cards at all. There are a fair few OP ships in this game, but CCP can only tackle so much at once - and a simple, easy rebalance to one ship is a lot easier than going over an entire race. The Drake is overpowered for one simple reason: it can pack DPS, tank and range into one fit with no sacrifices. Winmatar are overpowered for a vast multitude of reasons and will need more time to be properly looked over. Quote:I suppose if it was more clear what the _reason_ to make any changes at all were then it might seem less concerning. ^ See above. I've also yet to see anyone refute my point that this change is, at worst, a minor nerf and at best something of a buff. The Drake still has an excellent tank, and is now far more flexible than it was. Another thing people quoting kill statistics tend to overlook, is that you can't just look at the Drake in the context of most-used ships - you need to look at how it compares to other battlecruisers.As soon as you do that, it starts ringing some major alarm bells.
Nope that didn't convince me either. 13 Winmatar in top 20 vs 3 Caldari, 1 Gallente and 3 Amarr (is that right?) . . . . hmmm where is the overpowered faction in this set of numbers?
My main here is Minmatar, but then I have toons of all ethnicities, so I'm not arguing from the standpoint of "what I want for my toon" so much as, an interest to see the game thrive in general, and provide players with toons of all ethnicities a broad range of balanced opportunities for fun = more dynamic and interesting game = more players = more fun for all of us.
With a 13 : 3 : 3 : 1 ratio of Min : Cald : Amarr : Gall ship types in the top 20, I can honestly just see no clear reason to make any changes to anything except Minmatar (e.g., reduce DAM on all projectile weapons by 5% across the board??), and especially not changes that involve any form of weakening any of the other ethnicities ships. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
103
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 14:36:00 -
[45] - Quote
Sigh. I really am going to have to start using smaller words in these explanations.
So let's get this straight - according to you, the Drake doesn't need nerfing because... there are more ships of other races on a list? I mean never mind the fact that the Rifter is on there because it's overused, not overpowered? Or the fact that Drakes are used in enormous blobs in ways most of the Minmatar ships on there realistically can't? No sane person would deny Minmatar is OP, but that doesn't mean they have an absolute monopoly on OP ships. Hint: one happens to be Caldari, and happens to be easier to deal with than an entire race.
And I'll repeat these points because all you've done is blathered on about the flawed statistics in the OP rather than even trying to answer them:
Quote:I've also yet to see anyone refute my point that this change is, at worst, a minor nerf and at best something of a buff. The Drake still has an excellent tank, and is now far more flexible than it was.
Another thing people quoting kill statistics tend to overlook, is that you can't just look at the Drake in the context of most-used ships - you need to look at how it compares to other battlecruisers. As soon as you do that, it starts ringing some major alarm bells. |
Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
8
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 17:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Quote:NO missle velocity bonus is NO bonus at all. If you disagree, READ my above post on WHY MISSLE ARE BAD LONG RANGE WEAPONS. I explain why in great detail. And then I explained why you're full of ****. Here, I'll even re-post my rebuttal to you so you don't have to scroll up: Quote:The problem with a range bonus to missiles is that missileGÇÖs weakness become more and more pronounced and thus less useful in PVP as their engagement ranges increases. ... Except nobody is forcing Drakes to fire further, and at the ranges they currently fire at the missiles will get there faster. Simple solution: continue using current engagement ranges, and watch as your missiles fly to their targets much quicker than before. Did you really need me to spell that out or do you just have no idea about missiles? Quote:Caracal/Rupture rubbish And exactly what relevence does this have? People use Drakes because they put out solid DPS to comparatively long ranges while packing a good 80k EHP (before fleet boosts.) A better comparison for you to make would be arty canes vs Drakes. To save you the EFTing and typing I'll let you know how that works out: the Drakes are better. Quote:and BTW...it doesn't matter WHAT ships I used in my example becuase the scenario problems are applicable to ANY missle boat. Yeah it actually does, because as I said - the only thing the Drake and Caracal have in common is the bonus. Beyond that it's apples and oranges, and what you need to be comparing is the Drake compared to other BCs - where it comes out on top by a large margin. But hey, if guns are so much better at long range, please show me your arty Hurricane that can put out 460 DPS with an 80k tank and range of 70km. You're posting all this flawed figures crap, while neglecting the tiny little problem that people use Drakes in enormous blobs and do so for a reason.(And, I should add, use missiles out to mid-long ranges with no issues whatsoever.)
THIS IN NOT A VALID COUNTER ARGUMENT
My argument is based on actual DATA and data anylisis. It contain objective truths, such as a speed boosted heavy missile takes 8.5 seconds to reach a target 65 km away, upon which my arguments are based.
YOUR counter argument contains nothing more than OPINION! Opinion not based on ANY actual data.
Therfore, as per the rules of logical debate, you have NOT countered my argument.
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Marko box
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
9
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 18:35:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ramadawn wrote: actual hard data ..... scenario problems.
I did not run scenarios, i ran live tests on live ppl in real combat situations. And based o those previous test i can tell u that less tank and more dps can only be a good thing on drake. Disadvantage is that if u are running missions in drake (lol scrub) u will actually have to move a bit now to mitigate damage. I would like to write a long post explaining how i got to that conclusion but that would be pointless since u wrote theese things:
Quote:This combined with the HurricaneGÇÖs better speed (which affects the drakes missile DPS)
Quote: ItGÇÖs slow (making it easier to catch), and It uses missiles (which have ALL kinds of weakness).
Quote: Rate of fire and missile velocity; the same bonuses that are found on the Caracal and the Raven.
You know what CCP and vaunted CSM? Not a lot of players USE these ships in PVP. WHY? BECAUSE THE SUCK thatGÇÖs why. Quite honestly, the way you have set up PVP in this games makes these ships USELESS. When your opponent can warp away before your weapon actual reaches them or your long range sniper canGÇÖt get on kill mails because your target has poped before your shot even arrives; you have the makings of a very unpopular PVP ship.
Thats why i asked u a question if u ever used a drake in any sized gang or fleet. |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
138
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 18:48:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ramadawn wrote:
THIS IN NOT A VALID COUNTER ARGUMENT
My argument is based on actual DATA and data anylisis. It contain objective truths, such as a speed boosted heavy missile takes 8.5 seconds to reach a target 65 km away, upon which my arguments are based.
YOUR counter argument contains nothing more than OPINION! Opinion not based on ANY actual data.
Therfore, as per the rules of logical debate, you have NOT countered my argument.
I hear if you capitalize some of your words, it makes you look like you know what you're talking about.
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Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
8
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Posted - 2012.01.24 21:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
Marko box wrote:Ramadawn wrote: actual hard data ..... scenario problems.
I did not run scenarios, i ran live tests on live ppl in real combat situations. And based o those previous test i can tell u that less tank and more dps can only be a good thing on drake.-á Disadvantage is that if u are running missions in drake (lol scrub) u will actually have to move a bit now to mitigate damage.-á I would like to write a long post explaining how i got to that conclusion but that would be pointless since u wrote theese things: Quote:This combined with the HurricaneGÇÖs better speed (which affects the drakes missile DPS) Quote: ItGÇÖs slow (making it easier to catch), and It uses missiles (which have ALL kinds of weakness).
Quote: Rate of fire and missile velocity; the same bonuses that are found on the Caracal and the Raven.
You know what CCP and vaunted CSM? Not a lot of players USE these ships in PVP. WHY? BECAUSE THE SUCK thatGÇÖs why. Quite honestly, the way you have set up PVP in this games makes these ships USELESS. When your opponent can warp away before your weapon actual reaches them or your long range sniper canGÇÖt get on kill mails because your target has poped before your shot even arrives; you have the makings of a very unpopular PVP ship.
Thats why i asked u a question if u ever used a drake in any sized gang or fleet.
Yes I have used a drake in actual combat. As I have a hurricane and a myrmydon and a brutix. I have actually found them to be all pretty balanced. My shield nanno brutix does about 840 dps at about 12 clicks. It has a tank that is equivelent to my cane which does abour 630 dps at 18 click. If I load defenders in it's 2 hvy launchers and keep my speed up I can most likely drop a Drak's dps long enough to kill him before he kills me. My 440 fit mymadon has a tank that would make my Drake envous and still manages to shell out 3/4 of my drake's 440 dp. (This dps -áis often dropped alot by the use of popular nano bcs. Not a problem suffered by my gun BCs. My drake gen has a 14k hp shield with 70 percent ave shield resist and 130 start shield regen.
As I said, they are all pretty welll balanced
And once again I use numbers to support my case while the other side only has opinion.
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Zyress
Deaths Head Brigade Gryphon League
23
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 22:24:00 -
[50] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Michael Harari wrote:The CSM said they want the drake to be more like the caracal and raven. The caracal and raven are terrible. ...for a few reasons that don't apply to the Drake, especially not in its new buffed state (should the buff actually go through). What they mean is that they want the Drake to be focused rather than a jack-of-all-trades. As it happens, focusing it will give a very nice buff and will very specifically make it not suck in the ways the Caracal and Raven suck.
When a Race only has one good T1 ship it needs to be a jack of all trades |
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Zyress
Deaths Head Brigade Gryphon League
23
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Posted - 2012.01.24 22:26:00 -
[51] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Michael Harari wrote:
The reason people fly drakes is that people skill for caldari for pve (despite the maelstrom being loads better than the raven for level 4s) and the drake, tengu and (ugh) falcon are pretty much the only caldari ships worth flying. (Nighthawk too, but its pretty much just an expensive drake).
Bit close minded aren't you? AML caracal is a fun and effective boat. The cerberus isn't the best for sniping but its definitely an option for missile users in a shield hac gang. Vulture is a fantastic fleet ship (shield boosts are good mmkay?). Rook and scorp are great ewar options with the blackbird being a nice beginner/throwaway. Oh and have you met my friend the Rokh? Hes pretty cool now too. Hawk and hookbill are fun as hell in small gangs. Basilisk is amazing for RR with cap buddies and of course the Posprey serves its role nicely. Yeah, drake, tengu and falcon are the only ones worth flying With the proposed changes the Nighthawk would actually have a different role than the drake, albeit niche but thats okay, it is T2 after all.
Guess you missed the part where they are nerfing ecm also. AML Caracal is a one trick pony, cerberus has no useful purpose, the Rokh is severely outclassed by either Amarr or Minmatar snipers and the Hawk is a so so assault frigate. The Hookbill is a very good Faction Frigate thats my one concession but I stand by what I said, the Drake is the only descent T1 ship in the line up. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
103
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 22:28:00 -
[52] - Quote
Right except your figures are currently conflicting with a little thing called "reality." People can and do use Drakes, to insane effectiveness, in exactly the way you claim they don't work.
Fun fact here because it seems you've never actually used a missile ship (or you suck too badly in them to have a clue) - missile flight time really isn't a problem when your entire gang are also missile ships.
Quote:Yes I have used a drake in actual combat. (and then some bullshit) Once again a little thing called "reality" comes in here - if your Hurricane is so much better than a Drake (rofl HMLs in the utility highs. The evidence for you being a dribbling newbie mounts ever higher) why do people fly Drake blobs and not Hurricane blobs?
You also seem to be comparing a short range Hurricane fit to long range Drake fits, which makes your argument completely void. Try comparing an artillery Hurricane to a Drake, and then you'll see how utterly **** the cane is by comparison. |
Marko box
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
9
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 22:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ramadawn wrote:
Yes I have used a drake in actual combat. As I have a hurricane and a myrmydon and a brutix. I have actually found them to be all pretty balanced. My shield nanno brutix does about 840 dps at about 12 clicks. It has a tank that is equivelent to my cane which does abour 630 dps at 18 click. If I load defenders in it's 2 hvy launchers and keep my speed up I can most likely drop a Drak's dps long enough to kill him before he kills me. My 440 fit mymadon has a tank that would make my Drake envous and still manages to shell out 3/4 of my drake's 440 dp. (This dps -áis often dropped alot by the use of popular nano bcs. Not a problem suffered by my gun BCs. My drake gen has a 14k hp shield with 70 percent ave shield resist and 130 start shield regen.
As I said, they are all pretty welll balanced
And once again I use numbers to support my case while the other side only has opinion.
Ah u are trolling. Carry on |
Mary Mercer
King Wholesaling
51
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 00:11:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ramadawn wrote:The following is an excerpt from the December 2011 meeting minutes:
The Drake: The CSM and CCP both acknowledged the need to rebalance the Drake, "which does everything to well". CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like a Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinertic bonus and instead gain a rate of fire bonus and a missile velocity bonus. The CSM vehemently approved of this idea.
Now having read this, I would like you to consider the following:
Source: Eve Kill Top 20 ships in PVP
Rank Ships Kills 1 Drake 115829 2 Tengu 82773 3 Maelstrom 81285 4 Hurricane 68436 5 Abaddon 46578 6 Armageddon 40771 7 Tornado 29248 8 Scimitar 23814 9 Tempest 23289 10 Zealot 19149 11 Sabre 19109 12 Huginn 15705 13 Cynabal 14129 14 Loki 13117 15 Hound 12738 16 Manticore 12289 17 Vagabond 12086 18 Lachesis 11781 19 Rapier 11759 20 Rifter 11226
Now consider the Following:
1.13 of the Ships on this list are Minamatar
2.3 of the ships on this list are Caldari
3.Of the Caldari ships on this list one ONE is Tech 1
Here is Objective clear proof that Minmatar ships are over powered in PVP and yet, you want to nerf the DRAKE?
How about you start nerfing Minmatar ships? (At what point did fast moving, high DPS ships with ,great range and a choice of damage types seem like a GOOD idea in terms of ship balance?)
And while youGÇÖre at it, lets get some Gallente ships on this list can we. Seriously ONE ships in spot number 18 and thatGÇÖs ONLY there because it can warp disrupt at ranges no other ship can.
(At what point did slow moving ships with short range guns and limited damage types seem like as good idea for ship balance?)
Lets look at the Drake compared to other BCs:
- Yes the drake has a very nice tank. So does the myrmidon. In fact the myrmidonGÇÖs tank is better.
- Yes the drake has a better tank than some Battleships. But the Hurricane can do more DPS than some Battleships. And with the introduction of the Tornado you now have two amazing DPS Battle Cruisers that do MORE damage than some BCGÇÖs. BOTH of which are minmatar and BOTH of which are on this list. And yet strangely enough neither ONE of these ships are being nerfed.
-The drakeGÇÖs DPS ranges around 2/3GÇÖs as much DPS as a Hurricane. This combined with the HurricaneGÇÖs better speed (which affects the drakes missile DPS) combines with a Tank that isnGÇÖt THAT bad, means the two ships are a pretty even match.
- As such, I would guess that the only reason why the Hurricane is at rank 4 and the Drake is at rank 1 is that besides the Hurricane, Minmatar pilots have a lot of OTHER great choices for pure combat ships; while Caldari Pilots have well the DRAKE.
Now lets consider the bonuses they want to give the Drake.
Rate of fire and missile velocity; the same bonuses that are found on the Caracal and the Raven.
You know what CCP and vaunted CSM? Not a lot of players USE these ships in PVP. WHY? BECAUSE THE SUCK thatGÇÖs why. Quite honestly, the way you have set up PVP in this games makes these ships USELESS. When your opponent can warp away before your weapon actual reaches them or your long range sniper canGÇÖt get on kill mails because your target has poped before your shot even arrives; you have the makings of a very unpopular PVP ship.
In short these changes will take the drake from the top of this list to the bottom of it.
Finally the Drake is NOT a ship without significant weaknesses (unlike the minmater).
ItGÇÖs slow (making it easier to catch), and It uses missiles (which have ALL kinds of weakness).
These weakness are easily as significant as itGÇÖs strengths. (unlike minmater ships)
So in summary
LEAVE THE DRAKE ALONG.
DonGÇÖt fix whatGÇÖs NOT broken
Fix whats actually broken
Oh the love of political use of numbers. I just love to see when people post numbers trying to make a case, but use the numbers in a way that will mean nothing.
Could you please also tell us how many of each of those ships listed is involved in a pvp fight? And of those, how many are 1v1 versus how many are small gang related.
Without telling us how many of each ship type are in use in combat situations these numbers are pointless. If 10 drakes are in use and and 100,000 rifters were used to get those kills we have a drake problem. on the other hand if it's the other way we don't. See my point? Try not to further your political agenda through skewing numbers. Draw a full picture. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
5562
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 00:19:00 -
[55] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Post-"nerf". Drake - 60-65k EHP, same DPS - but full selectable damage type, lower alpha. Doesn't look too broken to me. Me neither, just looks to be more in-line tbh.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
104
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 00:22:00 -
[56] - Quote
The other BCs tend to average out around 60k when tank fitted without gimping their DPS too badly, so that looks fine to me. I can also see some plusses in being able to lob HAMs at 30km.
What's interesting is, with this change, the Ferox may well beat the Drake in tank if fitted right. Coupled with the fact they can now fit a full rack of neutrons, we might be seeing some increased use of that ship? |
Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
9
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 01:22:00 -
[57] - Quote
Hey Duchess Starshitforbrains
Why don't you come out to Gallente-Caldari low sec in your super Drake and I'd be more than happy to show you just how "noob fit" my 2 HML autocane really is .
In fact,Just come out ,if you think I am so new...I'd be happy to "school you" on just how little you know what you are talking about. |
Aglais
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
47
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 02:53:00 -
[58] - Quote
The proposed Drake changes don't break it. If nothing else it might keep it viable as well as maybe give the Ferox a point to exist. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
104
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 11:55:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ramadawn wrote:Hey Duchess Starshitforbrains
Why don't you come out to Gallente-Caldari low sec in your super Drake and I'd be more than happy to show you just how "noob fit" my 2 HML autocane really is .
In fact,Just come out ,if you think I am so new...I'd be happy to "school you" on just how little you know what you are talking about.
Ahahahaha oh man he's completely losing it now. I'll take it as you conceeding the argument, as you failed to address a single point I made and instead started challenging me to a fight. Oh and unless you have a main somewhere, the idea of fighting you wouldn't exactly worry me. Nice overdrive fitted Drake you have there, and are you sure your Scorpions have enough cap mods? Rofl. No wonder you think these changes would break the Drake - with you piloting one they certainly would. I might actually give the Drake another go with this change, I used to fly it a lot but it's probably one of the most boring PVP ships in the game.
Here, I'll even repost the bits you either ignored or were too brainless to understand (ask me if you need any of the big words defined)
Quote:No, what you have are a few DPS and EHP statistics that are utterly meaningless on their own. Here, I'll give you some statistics that are actually comperable to each other.
Close range (10-20km range) Shield cane - 49k EHP, 700 DPS (point blank range) 350-400 DPS (20km range) - DPS mitigated further by tracking Armour cane - Better EHP (but still lower than a Drake) and worse DPS across the board. HAM Drake - 86k EHP, 610 DPS (tackle range) 560 DPS (11-20km) - applies full damage to tackled targets PG implant HAM Drake - 83k EHP, 680 DPS (tackle range) 618 DPS (11-20km) - applies full damage to tackled targets Harbinger - I'll provide stats if you really want, but there are like 3 different fits and all of them are inferior to the Drake.
Long range (50-70km) Arty cane - 39k EHP, 280 DPS, 2.3k alpha, locked into explosive damage and has comically poor tracking Beam harby - 42k EHP, 305 DPS, 1k alpha, locked into EM damage and tracking isn't much better than above ^ HML Drake - 78k EHP, 460 DPS, 2.9k alpha, semi-selectable damage type, good missile precision and each Drake has target painters ensuring solid hits
In both the above cases, the Drakes also have vastly superior resists to the other ships, meaning the synergise perfectly with logistics and with a fleet booster have tanks that rival battleships.
Post-"nerf". Drake - 60-65k EHP, same DPS - but full selectable damage type, lower alpha. Doesn't look too broken to me. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
183
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 12:10:00 -
[60] - Quote
I have no idea what's going on in this thread. I can't even begin follow the argument between Duchess and the OP. They might not even actually be arguing, that's how little I can follow it.
The only thing that's obvious to me is that a ROF/velocity Drake would generally be a better PVP ship than the current Kin/resist one, especially in solo/small-gang environments. In blobs, whether it would be better depends on the balance between decreased logistics rep-ability and increase applied damage and reduced flight time over typical engagement ranges. And that such a Drake would further relegate the Caracal to a museum piece.
I don't understand why CCP and the CSM is proposing boosting the Drake when I'd be taking the nerfbat to tier 2 BCs in general, and the Hurricane and Drake in particular. |
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