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Stop CCP from killing the PVP Drake

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Zyress Deaths Head Brigade Vanguard. 33	Posted - 2012.02.17 21:07:00 - [151] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: On many occasions Duchess Starbuckington and I have been in disagreement over certain topics. However, we seem to be of the same opinion that this is (more of) a BUFF for the Drake and not (that bad) a nerf. See? another reason why you should rethink your position.
Zyress Deaths Head Brigade Vanguard. 33	Posted - 2012.02.17 21:18:00 - [152] - Quote Kyrplexa Insanitus wrote: I have to say... raw numbers never give the truth in-depth. The drake is a strong candidate for pvp because it has a great slot layout, great bonuses for a tier 2 BC, and is easy for PvE players to switch into. Ask yourselves this: What do all of the other Tier 2 BC's have for bonuses? exactly. When was the last time this ship was nerfed? k. I mean, if you're going to argue that the ship shouldn't be nerfed, bring more to the table than a single list of kills. There is more at work in each kill involved than is stated, which can give people a biased decision. CCP also nerfs ships on occasion and buffs them. Deal with it like everyone else. One niche ship should not stay niche forever. the minmatar ships work well in pvp because people simply don't have the patience to combat fast ships correctly (at least in my experience with fleet warfare). All CCP really has to say is "The Drake does not follow the standards of Tier 2 Battlecruisers." and the nerf ensues. -Personally, I don't want the Drake to be 'nerfed,' but realistically.... you have to have seen it coming eventually... people have been complaining about its capabilities for ages. Actually for years they laughed at it and said it was good for nothing but bait
Zyress Deaths Head Brigade Vanguard. 33	Posted - 2012.02.17 21:20:00 - [153] - Quote Duchess Starbuckington wrote: Quote: At the very least they should have said that a LARGE portion of the player base will dislike this change. Only the ones who suck at flying them. For the rest of us, this change is actually a huge buff. (Oh and the carebears flying them in level 4s I guess, but the Drake sucks at that anyway so this'll be doing them a favour.) Don't do me any favors
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 187	Posted - 2012.02.17 21:37:00 - [154] - Quote Ares Renton wrote: If the Drake is going to be changed to make it more "specialized"... why is its tank being taken away? The Drake's claim to fame was its tank and it blows my mind how the very people who designed it don't realize that. It's just going to become some sort of ****** sibling of the Raven and Caracal after these changes. Heavy Missiles have a good range already, the extra range is useless to me. If it needs to be changed, I'd much rather have its resistance bonus doubled and damage bonus taken away. There, now it's specialized. (Not that it would make a difference anyways, I'd just drop a Shield Relay for a Ballistic Control Unit). Hearing about this made me switch training into projectiles. Honestly, there's so few decent missile ships as it is, it's a bad idea to tinker with the ones that work. I'm going to have to agree with this. Training past heavy missiles is pretty pointless, unless you're gonna be flying a stealth bomber. Why would anyone train to get into a raven, or any other caldari bs be it t1 or t2 when they have the drake which is better than the raven, and the tengu which is better at pve than any other caldari ship, and better at pvp than any other caldari ship. Even if you wanna consider the Golem being used in pve, the tengu still out matches it because it's capable of more tank, more effective dps without target painters, moves faster, and has much stronger sensors. Now, when you look at t2 ships, they're very specific. The problem is that not very many people in Eve want to limited themselves to a ship that serves only one specific role such as logistics, cap warfare, ecm, etc etc... Which is pretty much ALL of the caldari t2 lineup apart from the stealth bomber and the heavy assault ships, which to be honest, I rarely see heavy assault ships being flown around, expecially caldari H.A.. The drake is popular amongst players because you can build an effective fit with less skill than many other ships in game. Not to mention its passive tanking ability gives it plenty of cap to be able to fit ewar, microwarps, etc.etc... This same case can be made with the Tengu.. it's popular because it's multifunctional, and capable of performing in most situations..... Hell, even if you're gonna train for t2 caldari ships, then apart from the Golem and the bomber, you're better off just training for heavy missiles clear across the board.. You'll probably even perform better with heavy missiles on a widow than you will with torps or cruise. So back to what this guy said.. It's not a matter of the drake being so good, it's a matter of Caldari, and missile boats expecially, not having a better choice.
El Geo Pathfinders. Mining For Profit Alliance 26	Posted - 2012.05.11 23:12:00 - [155] - Quote i remember when everybody used to complain the drake was useless at pvp, afaik they havent changed it so....
Cygnet Lythanea World Welfare Works Association 58	Posted - 2012.05.11 23:29:00 - [156] - Quote I'm opposed to this nerf since that means that drakes will be extra double nerfed if the proposed changes to rigs go through and passive tanks reduce your velocity. We have enough useless ships in this game. Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium
Jayrendo Karr Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth 109	Posted - 2012.05.12 00:19:00 - [157] - Quote Kill it? The drake will be a ***** monster now. Instead of just dealing kinetic it can deal all 4 at once without any loss of effectiveness, at ranges exceeding 80 km. New drake will be a ***** bulldozer. That said the PvE drake will die within weeks.
Cygnet Lythanea World Welfare Works Association 58	Posted - 2012.05.12 00:49:00 - [158] - Quote Jayrendo Karr wrote: Kill it? The drake will be a ***** monster now. Instead of just dealing kinetic it can deal all 4 at once without any loss of effectiveness, at ranges exceeding 80 km. New drake will be a ***** bulldozer. If by 'bulldozer' you mean 'easily one shotted and unable to move faster than 75 kmps' then yes. Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium
XXSketchxx Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 254	Posted - 2012.05.12 00:55:00 - [159] - Quote El Geo wrote: i remember when everybody used to complain the drake was useless at pvp, afaik they havent changed it so.... why would you necro this horrible thread?
PDH Sylar Seven Minutes To Midnight. 68	Posted - 2012.05.12 06:20:00 - [160] - Quote The Drake isn't over powered, its just the only BC left with enough tank / damage projection to stand upto the new teir3 BC's. None of the other BC's can possibly take on a tier BC, as to tank them it makes them incredibly slow and as such will get kited and killed. Or they nano fit, and sacrifice tank, however the tier3s are far faster than standard BC's even nano'ed and cannot project their dps out to the range in which they are being kited. Drake vs Tornado Drake vs Talos Drake vs Naga The above are all equal fights because the drake can tank, and project its dps out past 20km. Arty canes and beam harby's can do this, but will have not enough tank to stay on the field. (I know I have missed rails, but rails only work on kiting frigates atm) The main problem is Minmatar ships are too optional on when they engage / dont engage... they just run away. Which leads them to become very popular as no-one likes losing. So as such, Minmatar is very popular and is deemed ''the pvp race'' where as if it was just Caldari, Amarr, Gallente ships flying in space the general speed of ships would drop and therefore the battleship tank of the drake would become OP, but its lower dps would become under powered. The loss of the drakes resists isnt that bad tbh, in a pure gank vs tank situation, its dps has gone up.. but its tank has gone down. SO you do dps quicker but die faster. Seen as it had tank to spare in the first place, you just going to have to keep range abit more to mitigate damage. The drake is pretty much the only ship im flying at the moment, because its the only ''cheap'' pvp ship which can deal with a variety of situations. These situations mainly being blobs... as the drakes tank, ~speed (ability to run mwd for a long time) and projected damage mean it can actually go where no Bc has gone before ;) ..... this is especially true with Loki boosts as the point and web @ 43km and 20km respectively mean you can keep traditional bc's at the edge of the dps/falloff/highdps range/ammo.. while you still project your dps at full strength onto them. Rambling on, but just my experience from flying it allot, to the point im bored of it. TL:DR - Game is Broke - Drake Change = Buff - Harb, Proph, Brutix, Myrm, Ferox, Cyclone, Cane, all have max dps range of 20km (minus arty cane) - Harb, Proph, Brutix, Myrm, Ferox, Cyclone, all have to commit to a fight (scram/web range) to do decent dps. - Tier3 BC's go too fast ~ they should have same based speed as the tier2 bc's. - Minmatar are too run away based... make them more active tanked as their ''neiche'' like gallente are (i.e rep bonus) - Gallente are getting there - drone damage mod is win ;) ... you can get 800dps out a shield thorax/vexor. - Diemost needs a 4th med slot. If you really want to nerf the drake, make it a HAM only platform like the sac. ~ i.e bring its projected dps inline with the other BC's as a HAM drake can only hit to 10-15km with damage missiles, then if it wants to ''kite'' the speed nerf on range ham's will make it so the armor varients have a fair chance to catch it.
Kaikka Carel White syndicate 50	Posted - 2012.05.12 06:37:00 - [161] - Quote [Drake, Drake HAM] Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Inferno Rage Assault Missile Small Nosferatu II Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Stasis Webifier II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Warp Scrambler II Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I 1) Put my BC skill to "0" and get 75.9k omni ehp and 67.1k against INMF. 2) Multiply my 397 dps by 1.3333(25% RoF) and get 529 dps with any damage type. 3) 24381.55.59=20442 meters of effective range, My char has only 1.4kk SP in missiles. So please tell me where's this a bad PVP ship?
PDH Sylar Seven Minutes To Midnight. 68	Posted - 2012.05.12 06:41:00 - [162] - Quote It properly only goes about 850-1000m/s, which is the only bad thing... however a plated harby/cane/ myrm is about similar if not faster... (in response to drake fit on previous page..)
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 176	Posted - 2012.05.12 06:48:00 - [163] - Quote That's the comical part. The drake sucks at PvP. it's the only thing Crapdari have left though.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 257	Posted - 2012.05.12 07:42:00 - [164] - Quote Ocih wrote: That's the comical part. The drake sucks at PvP. it's the only thing Crapdari have left though. They're craptastic at pvp, except when in blobs or facing an obviously inferior ship. In comparison, everything is capable of this, however they have fittings capabilities that allow them to face off against equal or even superior ships, which the Drake cannot do.
PDH Sylar Seven Minutes To Midnight. 68	Posted - 2012.05.12 07:52:00 - [165] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: Ocih wrote: That's the comical part. The drake sucks at PvP. it's the only thing Crapdari have left though. They're craptastic at pvp, except when in blobs or facing an obviously inferior ship. In comparison, everything is capable of this, however they have fittings capabilities that allow them to face off against equal or even superior ships, which the Drake cannot do. Everything is situational, however the drake is pretty good for solo pvp. I'd have no problem facing a cane 1v1, only problem may be he nuets the point before I kill him. I've jumped into multiple gate camps in a drake, and came out on top. Its about managing range and knowing what ships you can and can't take. Its easier to fly a drake than any other BC... its effective with the right skills and knowledge... however its often flown by PVE characters as their training nappy into pvp. This is why its hated on soo much, as even nubs can get in it, and be hard to take down.. granted they are only doing 200dps.. but this obviously gets on peoples nerves. Check eve-kill, you will go through atleast 3 drakes before you find a semi decent fit.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 257	Posted - 2012.05.12 08:29:00 - [166] - Quote PDH Sylar wrote: Everything is situational, however the drake is pretty good for solo pvp. I'd have no problem facing a cane 1v1, only problem may be he nuets the point before I kill him. I've jumped into multiple gate camps in a drake, and came out on top. Its about managing range and knowing what ships you can and can't take. Its easier to fly a drake than any other BC... its effective with the right skills and knowledge... however its often flown by PVE characters as their training nappy into pvp. This is why its hated on soo much, as even nubs can get in it, and be hard to take down.. granted they are only doing 200dps.. but this obviously gets on peoples nerves. Check eve-kill, you will go through atleast 3 drakes before you find a semi decent fit. Oh I hear you there.. The drake is a relatively easy ship to fit and fly. However, getting it to be an effective pvp ship is a bit difficult. A drake pilot that knows what he's doing may be able to take down a cane, but this also kinda relies on the cane pilot not being that great at it. A cane should be able to tank the craptastic dps of a drake while out dps'ing his capable tank, and still be able to move faster, web, and scram the drake at the same time. It's very rare to catch a drake outside of high sec attempting solo pvp. They're typically a ship in a fleet, and even more so in a drake fleet and drake blob. Drakes work great together, but unlike many other ships in Eve, they're not too grand Solo. The only thing that makes them seem to have a relatively good solo pvp is their tank, however at the same time that very tank is probably what henders them from being more solo pvp affective.
XXSketchxx Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 258	Posted - 2012.05.12 08:40:00 - [167] - Quote IIRC the proposed changes would make the drake a beast brawler, a shield bc equivalent of the sacrilege. I'm okay with this.
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 180	Posted - 2012.05.12 17:25:00 - [168] - Quote PDH Sylar wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: Ocih wrote: That's the comical part. The drake sucks at PvP. it's the only thing Crapdari have left though. They're craptastic at pvp, except when in blobs or facing an obviously inferior ship. In comparison, everything is capable of this, however they have fittings capabilities that allow them to face off against equal or even superior ships, which the Drake cannot do. Everything is situational, however the drake is pretty good for solo pvp. I'd have no problem facing a cane 1v1, only problem may be he nuets the point before I kill him. I've jumped into multiple gate camps in a drake, and came out on top. Its about managing range and knowing what ships you can and can't take. Its easier to fly a drake than any other BC... its effective with the right skills and knowledge... however its often flown by PVE characters as their training nappy into pvp. This is why its hated on soo much, as even nubs can get in it, and be hard to take down.. granted they are only doing 200dps.. but this obviously gets on peoples nerves. Check eve-kill, you will go through atleast 3 drakes before you find a semi decent fit. That's a bit of a myth. It isn't easier to train a Drake. It's actually it's own skill set. I had Gunnery and no missiles. I was never a Missile user but I wanted to use a Damnation and by default trained Drake skills. It meant training up 6 new skills to support Heavy missiles that only work with missiles. When I trained Projectiles, it took a third of the time because I had already trained all the support skills to use beams and pulse. Adding projectiles to the arsenal was easy. As someone else said, the issue with drakes is they are being evaluated on their blob value and that's a very bad example because it really doesn't matter what you are in when there are 800 of them on the field. The Drake and Damnation are by far the cheapest ship to fit. The original design of a Missile boat was you got a diversity of damage but you paid a heavy price in ISK and somehow the Launcher ended up being the only T2 weapons platform you can put on for under 700K ISK. Even a T2 Cruise or torp Launcher is cheaper than a medium projectile or other medium gun. Even the ammo isn't any different cost wise.
Trollin 39	Posted - 2012.05.12 20:14:00 - [169] - Quote Ramadawn wrote: LEAVE THE DRAKE ALONG. this. .
Mars Theran EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance 197	Posted - 2012.05.12 20:14:00 - [170] - Quote anyone else notice that a Logi is number 8 for kills on that list, (the Scimitar)? My thoughts: Scrap that list and stop using EVE kill as a 'reliable' source of information for these discussions. It's not. You can't use numbers from Null battles to determine the effectiveness of PvP vessels outside the blob. Whether Drake is OP or not is irrelevent. Take the fact that Huginn is up on the list, (rank 12), with 15.7K kills and only something like 40 will ever exist in game? Interesting that. Also, Maticore and Hound are up there. Structure kills much? It counts both, so your numbers are as much or more reliant on POS structure shooting as anything else. Alliance Auction - EVE Rogues: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1215438#post1215438
Felsusguy Try-Cycle Mining Industry 8	Posted - 2012.05.13 02:36:00 - [171] - Quote Drakes did need to be brought to line with the other battlecruisers, some way or another. Not sure if this is the correct way. To be honest I would have been happier with an all-around battlecruiser buffing.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 258	Posted - 2012.05.13 03:06:00 - [172] - Quote Felsusguy wrote: Drakes did need to be brought to line with the other battlecruisers, some way or another. Not sure if this is the correct way. To be honest I would have been happier with an all-around battlecruiser buffing. When you factor the t3's can spank battlecruisers (a larger size vessel) with absolutely no problems, yeah...I'd say they could use a buff.
XXSketchxx Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 260	Posted - 2012.05.13 03:13:00 - [173] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: When you factor the t3's can spank battlecruisers (a larger size vessel) with absolutely no problems, yeah...I'd say they could use a buff. .....a T3 ship one size below a T1 ship can beat it and you think this is imbalanced? :idonteven:
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 258	Posted - 2012.05.13 03:55:00 - [174] - Quote XXSketchxx wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: When you factor the t3's can spank battlecruisers (a larger size vessel) with absolutely no problems, yeah...I'd say they could use a buff. .....a T3 ship one size below a T1 ship can beat it and you think this is imbalanced? :idonteven: I don't have a problem with them beating them necessarily. It's the fact that they can pwn them like the hulk with a doggy toy..
XXSketchxx Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 260	Posted - 2012.05.13 04:05:00 - [175] - Quote Joe Risalo wrote: I don't have a problem with them beating them necessarily. It's the fact that they can pwn them like the hulk with a doggy toy.. Sorry but thats a good thing. A T2 fit T3 easily costs more than 500 mil. It should be able to easily defeat a T1 battlecruiser
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 258	Posted - 2012.05.13 04:18:00 - [176] - Quote XXSketchxx wrote: Joe Risalo wrote: I don't have a problem with them beating them necessarily. It's the fact that they can pwn them like the hulk with a doggy toy.. Sorry but thats a good thing. A T2 fit T3 easily costs more than 500 mil. It should be able to easily defeat a T1 battlecruiser That's not neccesarily true. You can stomp a faction BS with a BC if you fit it right and they're much cheaper. My problem isn't so much with t3 effectiveness, but rather their effectiveness is overly powerful for their Hull size. For instance, a tengu can outperform pretty much any other sub capital caldari boat in both pvp and pve. However, if they fell into the BC classification, then they would receive a larger sign radius and perhaps slower movement speed while not requiring a tank or dps nerf. It would be a better balance for t3's simply by making them slower and bigger, thus easier to counter.
XXSketchxx Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 260	Posted - 2012.05.13 04:37:00 - [177] - Quote T3 cruisers are quite fine in their current incarnation. Get some experience actually flying them before you comment on it. Actually that statement holds true for all of the balance discussion we engage in.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 259	Posted - 2012.05.13 04:57:00 - [178] - Quote XXSketchxx wrote: T3 cruisers are quite fine in their current incarnation. Get some experience actually flying them before you comment on it. Actually that statement holds true for all of the balance discussion we engage in. I have the tengu maxed out in every possible variation. I have all possible missile, shield, support, and velocity skills that would effect the tengu maxed out. With my current pve form I have 705 dps and am capable of a much more durable tank than a golem, not to mention its much faster and smaller. Is this op? Yes, but only as a cruiser sized vessel. If you were to compare its capabilities with any other cruiser and were then to apply the difference to a battleship class t3, then that BS would essentially have over 2k dps with the effective tank of a rattlesnake. Does that sound Op for a BS class vessel? If not than you really need to reconsider what you deem to be balance. Oh, and my tengu fit also lock quickly and has 35 sensor strength.
Duchess Starbuckington Starbuckington Manor 189	Posted - 2012.05.13 05:00:00 - [179] - Quote I have still yet to see anyone credibly refute a single point I (and the other pro-"nerf" posters) have made. I'll try and make this simple for the whining carebear OP and co: - The removal of the shield resistance bonus places the Drake on par with the other BCs for tank, not below them. With a balanced fit, you're looking at around 60-65k EHP. - This is a huge buff to the Drake's DPS/applied DPS. - This is only a PVE nerf (highly debatably) to level 4 mission runners, and the Drake is a **** level 4 ship anyway so really not much has changed. - If you really think this change will break the Drake, please present some proper evidence, because I've run the numbers and it's looking like a damn good ship with these new bonuses. You have my deepest sympathies for the fact you might have to actually use your brains to figure out how to fly it properly with the changes. TL:DR: The Drake will still be an excellent ship post-revamp. I refuse to seriously refer to this as a PVP nerf when all I'm seeing so far is a pretty respectable buff/rebalance.
Joe Risalo State War Academy Caldari State 259	Posted - 2012.05.13 05:09:00 - [180] - Quote Duchess Starbuckington wrote: I have still yet to see anyone credibly refute a single point I (and the other pro-"nerf" posters) have made. I'll try and make this simple for the whining carebear OP and co: - The removal of the shield resistance bonus places the Drake on par with the other BCs for tank, not below them. With a balanced fit, you're looking at around 60-65k EHP. - This is a huge buff to the Drake's DPS/applied DPS. - This is only a PVE nerf (highly debatably) to level 4 mission runners, and the Drake is a **** level 4 ship anyway so really not much has changed. - If you really think this change will break the Drake, please present some proper evidence, because I've run the numbers and it's looking like a damn good ship with these new bonuses. You have my deepest sympathies for the fact you might have to actually use your brains to figure out how to fly it properly with the changes. TL:DR: The Drake will still be an excellent ship post-revamp. I refuse to seriously refer to this as a PVP nerf when all I'm seeing so far is a pretty respectable buff/rebalance. A cane can pull out much more effective dps while still having a large enough buffer tank to spank a Drake 1v1. Start taking g away it's tank without giving it a buff to dps, and not just allowing it to do equal dps with all damege types and you're doing g nothing but removing one of its 2 attributes that make it reomtely usable in pvp. 1 being tank and 2 being missiles having no optimal range.

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