The following is an excerpt from the December 2011 meeting minutes:

The Drake: The CSM and CCP both acknowledged the need to rebalance the Drake, "which does everything to well". CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like a Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinertic bonus and instead gain a rate of fire bonus and a missile velocity bonus. The CSM vehemently approved of this idea.

Now having read this, I would like you to consider the following:

How about you start nerfing Minmatar ships? (At what point did fast moving, high DPS ships with ,great range and a choice of damage types seem like a GOOD idea in terms of ship balance?)

Good thing that they're not nerfing it or kililng it for PvP, then.

They're doing the exact opposite: they're honing it for PvP by giving it better damage output and projection, while scaling down its tank a bit to compensate for this significant offensive buff.

Good thing that they're not nerfing it or kililng it for PvP, then.

They're doing the exact opposite: they're honing it for PvP by giving it better damage output and projection, while scaling down its tank a bit to compensate for this significant offensive buff.

The CSM said they want the drake to be more like the caracal and raven. The caracal and raven are terrible.

The reason people fly drakes is that people skill for caldari for pve (despite the maelstrom being loads better than the raven for level 4s) and the drake, tengu and (ugh) falcon are pretty much the only caldari ships worth flying. (Nighthawk too, but its pretty much just an expensive drake).

..for a few reasons that don't apply to the Drake, especially not in its new buffed state (should the buff actually go through). What they mean is that they want the Drake to be focused rather than a jack-of-all-trades. As it happens, focusing it will give a very nice buff and will very specifically make it not suck in the ways the Caracal and Raven suck.

The caracal sucks because of its terrible fitting room, and the raven sucks because it cant apply its DPS very well, the new drake will have neither of these issues

Source: Eve Kill Top 20 ships in PVP

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 115829
2 Tengu 82773
3 Maelstrom 81285
4 Hurricane 68436
5 Abaddon 46578
6 Armageddon 40771
7 Tornado 29248
8 Scimitar 23814
9 Tempest 23289
10 Zealot 19149
11 Sabre 19109
12 Huginn 15705
13 Cynabal 14129
14 Loki 13117
15 Hound 12738
16 Manticore 12289
17 Vagabond 12086
18 Lachesis 11781
19 Rapier 11759
20 Rifter 11226

Now consider the Following:

1.13 of the Ships on this list are Minamatar

2.3 of the ships on this list are Caldari

3.Of the Caldari ships on this list one ONE is Tech 1

Here is Objective clear proof that Minmatar ships are over powered in PVP and yet, you want to nerf the DRAKE?

If Minmatar pilots only had one or two ships in the top ten, they would be at the top of the list above the drake.

I personally believe that the drake should be kept as it is.
however it could be benificial to the game if all other ships were buffed to some degree so that they could compete with the drake (and the Hurricane).
-give the brutix more spped and agility
-give the cyclone a dammage bonus to missiles as well as its current bonus to projectiles. (make use of those missile slots)
-give the myrmidon a buff to its drones.
-give the prophecy a real dammage bonus to lasers
-give the harbinger more fitting options.

basicly if other ships were really good doing what they are ment to do (like the drake) then we would see more variety in fleets. drakes will still be king of missile boats and the hurricane the king of projectiles but ofther ships would be able to claim thier own titles more effectively and still be able to compete against eachother.
keep the drake as it is and give other ships an edge.
thats all

so 5 changes instead of 1 to achieve the same sort of desired balance

however it could be benificial to the game if all other ships were buffed to some degree so that they could compete with the drake (and the Hurricane).

basicly if other ships were really good doing what they are ment to do

---Well yes the idea is to improve other ships so that they are on par with the drake, i love the drake as it is, but the problem could be resolved by improving other ships so they are more enjoyable to fly.
and better at what they are ment to do.
Everyone is happy everyone wins

To put this simply: those that really know how to use the Drake will continue to do so, and probably better in some ways.
Those who are clueless newbies that are upset their mission ship is broken will continue to cry and moan in the face of the inevitable.

Have you people actually looked at the proposed changes, i.e. "nerf?" Its really not bad at all, in fact it would make the drake really fun for small gangs/roams.

I very much doubt it, he probably just saw the words "Drake" and "nerf" in the sentence and wet himself at the thought of it not being a faceroll ship.

And sorreh about your awesome resists :( the Ferox still has them though!

The problem with a range bonus to missiles is that missileGÇÖs weakness become more and more pronounced and thus less useful in PVP as their engagement ranges increases.

Caracal/Rupture rubbish

... Except nobody is forcing Drakes to fire further, and at the ranges they currently fire at the missiles will get there faster.
Simple solution: continue using current engagement ranges, and watch as your missiles fly to their targets much quicker than before. Did you really need me to spell that out or do you just have no idea about missiles?


And exactly what relevence does this have? People use Drakes because they put out solid DPS to comparatively long ranges while packing a good 80k EHP (before fleet boosts.)
A better comparison for you to make would be arty canes vs Drakes. To save you the EFTing and typing I'll let you know how that works out: the Drakes are better.

death2alldrakes

Are you serously suggesting that missiles mearly getting to their targets faster is a bonus on par with what other BCs get? Why not just suggest they get black camo bonus instead for all the use it would be....

And I use caracal/rupture example becuase it's the closest ship to what the drake WILL be. No piont in comparing the CURRENT drake when we are talking a future changes.

What's the caldari solo pvp ship? Disruptor range is 24km. I don't need a velocity bonus to hit that. Screw a fleet. I like 1v1..

nerfing drake is no viable option. This won't fix any problem, except having the most used ship removed for no reason. Just alpha those 80k EHP drakes, problem solved.

ITS A DAMN BUFF TO DRAKE FFS
DID U EVER FLY ONE IN PVP?????????

Umm, so let me get this straight, you're saying Drakes are fine because they can be alpha'd by ships that cost twice as much and have much higher skill reqs?
Yeah, you're an idiot.


Oh look, someone who actually knows what they're talking about. I was starting to think they didn't exist.

Let me just spell this out to the whiners:
The total nerf from this is bringing Drakes down from 80k EHP to around 60-65. Hardly crippling, is it?
The total buff from this is better range on HAMs, better performance at long range with HMLs, and better damage application with both thanks to true selectable damage type.

NO missle velocity bonus is NO bonus at all. If you disagree, READ my above post on WHY MISSLE ARE BAD LONG RANGE WEAPONS. I explain why in great detail.

The problem with a range bonus to missiles is that missileGÇÖs weakness become more and more pronounced and thus less useful in PVP as their engagement ranges increases.

Caracal/Rupture rubbish

and BTW...it doesn't matter WHAT ships I used in my example becuase the scenario problems are applicable to ANY missle boat.

I suppose if it was more clear what the _reason_ to make any changes at all were then it might seem less concerning.

You act like a winmatar nerf isn't on the cards at all. There are a fair few OP ships in this game, but CCP can only tackle so much at once - and a simple, easy rebalance to one ship is a lot easier than going over an entire race.

The Drake is overpowered for one simple reason: it can pack DPS, tank and range into one fit with no sacrifices.
Winmatar are overpowered for a vast multitude of reasons and will need more time to be properly looked over.


^ See above.

I've also yet to see anyone refute my point that this change is, at worst, a minor nerf and at best something of a buff. The Drake still has an excellent tank, and is now far more flexible than it was.

Another thing people quoting kill statistics tend to overlook, is that you can't just look at the Drake in the context of most-used ships - you need to look at how it compares to other battlecruisers.
As soon as you do that, it starts ringing some major alarm bells.

I've also yet to see anyone refute my point that this change is, at worst, a minor nerf and at best something of a buff. The Drake still has an excellent tank, and is now far more flexible than it was.

Another thing people quoting kill statistics tend to overlook, is that you can't just look at the Drake in the context of most-used ships - you need to look at how it compares to other battlecruisers.
As soon as you do that, it starts ringing some major alarm bells.

And then I explained why you're full of ****. Here, I'll even re-post my rebuttal to you so you don't have to scroll up:



... Except nobody is forcing Drakes to fire further, and at the ranges they currently fire at the missiles will get there faster.
Simple solution: continue using current engagement ranges, and watch as your missiles fly to their targets much quicker than before. Did you really need me to spell that out or do you just have no idea about missiles?




And exactly what relevence does this have? People use Drakes because they put out solid DPS to comparatively long ranges while packing a good 80k EHP (before fleet boosts.)
A better comparison for you to make would be arty canes vs Drakes. To save you the EFTing and typing I'll let you know how that works out: the Drakes are better.


Yeah it actually does, because as I said - the only thing the Drake and Caracal have in common is the bonus. Beyond that it's apples and oranges, and what you need to be comparing is the Drake compared to other BCs - where it comes out on top by a large margin.

But hey, if guns are so much better at long range, please show me your arty Hurricane that can put out 460 DPS with an 80k tank and range of 70km.
You're posting all this flawed figures crap, while neglecting the tiny little problem that people use Drakes in enormous blobs and do so for a reason.
(And, I should add, use missiles out to mid-long ranges with no issues whatsoever.)

actual hard data ..... scenario problems.

This combined with the HurricaneGÇÖs better speed (which affects the drakes missile DPS)

ItGÇÖs slow (making it easier to catch),
and It uses missiles (which have ALL kinds of weakness).

Rate of fire and missile velocity; the same bonuses that are found on the Caracal and the Raven.

You know what CCP and vaunted CSM?
Not a lot of players USE these ships in PVP. WHY? BECAUSE THE SUCK thatGÇÖs why. Quite honestly, the way you have set up PVP in this games makes these ships USELESS. When your opponent can warp away before your weapon actual reaches them or your long range sniper canGÇÖt get on kill mails because your target has poped before your shot even arrives; you have the makings of a very unpopular PVP ship.

THIS IN NOT A VALID COUNTER ARGUMENT

My argument is based on actual DATA and data anylisis. It contain objective truths, such as a speed boosted heavy missile takes 8.5 seconds to reach a target 65 km away, upon which my arguments are based.

YOUR counter argument contains nothing more than OPINION! Opinion not based on ANY actual data.

Therfore, as per the rules of logical debate, you have NOT countered my argument.

I did not run scenarios, i ran live tests on live ppl in real combat situations. And based o those previous test i can tell u that less tank and more dps can only be a good thing on drake.-á
Disadvantage is that if u are running missions in drake (lol scrub) u will actually have to move a bit now to mitigate damage.-á
I would like to write a long post explaining how i got to that conclusion but that would be pointless since u wrote theese things:







Thats why i asked u a question if u ever used a drake in any sized gang or fleet.

...for a few reasons that don't apply to the Drake, especially not in its new buffed state (should the buff actually go through). What they mean is that they want the Drake to be focused rather than a jack-of-all-trades. As it happens, focusing it will give a very nice buff and will very specifically make it not suck in the ways the Caracal and Raven suck.

Bit close minded aren't you? AML caracal is a fun and effective boat. The cerberus isn't the best for sniping but its definitely an option for missile users in a shield hac gang. Vulture is a fantastic fleet ship (shield boosts are good mmkay?). Rook and scorp are great ewar options with the blackbird being a nice beginner/throwaway. Oh and have you met my friend the Rokh? Hes pretty cool now too. Hawk and hookbill are fun as hell in small gangs. Basilisk is amazing for RR with cap buddies and of course the Posprey serves its role nicely. Yeah, drake, tengu and falcon are the only ones worth flying

With the proposed changes the Nighthawk would actually have a different role than the drake, albeit niche but thats okay, it is T2 after all.

Yes I have used a drake in actual combat. (and then some bullshit)

Yes I have used a drake in actual combat. As I have a hurricane and a myrmydon and a brutix. I have actually found them to be all pretty balanced. My shield nanno brutix does about 840 dps at about 12 clicks. It has a tank that is equivelent to my cane which does abour 630 dps at 18 click. If I load defenders in it's 2 hvy launchers and keep my speed up I can most likely drop a Drak's dps long enough to kill him before he kills me. My 440 fit mymadon has a tank that would make my Drake envous and still manages to shell out 3/4 of my drake's 440 dp. (This dps -áis often dropped alot by the use of popular nano bcs. Not a problem suffered by my gun BCs. My drake gen has a 14k hp shield with 70 percent ave shield resist and 130 start shield regen.

As I said, they are all pretty welll balanced

And once again I use numbers to support my case while the other side only has opinion.

The following is an excerpt from the December 2011 meeting minutes:

The Drake: The CSM and CCP both acknowledged the need to rebalance the Drake, "which does everything to well". CCP is considering giving it a more offensive role like a Raven or Caracal where it would lose the shield resistance bonus and the 5% Kinertic bonus and instead gain a rate of fire bonus and a missile velocity bonus. The CSM vehemently approved of this idea.

Now having read this, I would like you to consider the following:

Source: Eve Kill Top 20 ships in PVP

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 115829
2 Tengu 82773
3 Maelstrom 81285
4 Hurricane 68436
5 Abaddon 46578
6 Armageddon 40771
7 Tornado 29248
8 Scimitar 23814
9 Tempest 23289
10 Zealot 19149
11 Sabre 19109
12 Huginn 15705
13 Cynabal 14129
14 Loki 13117
15 Hound 12738
16 Manticore 12289
17 Vagabond 12086
18 Lachesis 11781
19 Rapier 11759
20 Rifter 11226

Now consider the Following:

1.13 of the Ships on this list are Minamatar

2.3 of the ships on this list are Caldari

3.Of the Caldari ships on this list one ONE is Tech 1

Here is Objective clear proof that Minmatar ships are over powered in PVP and yet, you want to nerf the DRAKE?

How about you start nerfing Minmatar ships? (At what point did fast moving, high DPS ships with ,great range and a choice of damage types seem like a GOOD idea in terms of ship balance?)

And while youGÇÖre at it, lets get some Gallente ships on this list can we. Seriously ONE ships in spot number 18 and thatGÇÖs ONLY there because it can warp disrupt at ranges no other ship can.

(At what point did slow moving ships with short range guns and limited damage types seem like as good idea for ship balance?)

Lets look at the Drake compared to other BCs:

- Yes the drake has a very nice tank. So does the myrmidon. In fact the myrmidonGÇÖs tank is better.

- Yes the drake has a better tank than some Battleships. But the Hurricane can do more DPS than some Battleships. And with the introduction of the Tornado you now have two amazing DPS Battle Cruisers that do MORE damage than some BCGÇÖs. BOTH of which are minmatar and BOTH of which are on this list. And yet strangely enough neither ONE of these ships are being nerfed.

-The drakeGÇÖs DPS ranges around 2/3GÇÖs as much DPS as a Hurricane. This combined with the HurricaneGÇÖs better speed (which affects the drakes missile DPS) combines with a Tank that isnGÇÖt THAT bad, means the two ships are a pretty even match.

- As such, I would guess that the only reason why the Hurricane is at rank 4 and the Drake is at rank 1 is that besides the Hurricane, Minmatar pilots have a lot of OTHER great choices for pure combat ships; while Caldari Pilots have well the DRAKE.

Now lets consider the bonuses they want to give the Drake.

Rate of fire and missile velocity; the same bonuses that are found on the Caracal and the Raven.

You know what CCP and vaunted CSM?
Not a lot of players USE these ships in PVP. WHY? BECAUSE THE SUCK thatGÇÖs why. Quite honestly, the way you have set up PVP in this games makes these ships USELESS. When your opponent can warp away before your weapon actual reaches them or your long range sniper canGÇÖt get on kill mails because your target has poped before your shot even arrives; you have the makings of a very unpopular PVP ship.

In short these changes will take the drake from the top of this list to the bottom of it.

Finally the Drake is NOT a ship without significant weaknesses (unlike the minmater).

ItGÇÖs slow (making it easier to catch),
and It uses missiles (which have ALL kinds of weakness).

These weakness are easily as significant as itGÇÖs strengths. (unlike minmater ships)

So in summary

LEAVE THE DRAKE ALONG.

DonGÇÖt fix whatGÇÖs NOT broken

Fix whats actually broken

Post-"nerf".
Drake - 60-65k EHP, same DPS - but full selectable damage type, lower alpha.
Doesn't look too broken to me.

Hey Duchess Starshitforbrains

Why don't you come out to Gallente-Caldari low sec in your super Drake and I'd be more than happy to show you just how "noob fit" my 2 HML autocane really is .

In fact,Just come out ,if you think I am so new...I'd be happy to "school you" on just how little you know what you are talking about.

No, what you have are a few DPS and EHP statistics that are utterly meaningless on their own. Here, I'll give you some statistics that are actually comperable to each other.

Close range (10-20km range)
Shield cane - 49k EHP, 700 DPS (point blank range) 350-400 DPS (20km range) - DPS mitigated further by tracking
Armour cane - Better EHP (but still lower than a Drake) and worse DPS across the board.
HAM Drake - 86k EHP, 610 DPS (tackle range) 560 DPS (11-20km) - applies full damage to tackled targets
PG implant HAM Drake - 83k EHP, 680 DPS (tackle range) 618 DPS (11-20km) - applies full damage to tackled targets
Harbinger - I'll provide stats if you really want, but there are like 3 different fits and all of them are inferior to the Drake.

Long range (50-70km)
Arty cane - 39k EHP, 280 DPS, 2.3k alpha, locked into explosive damage and has comically poor tracking
Beam harby - 42k EHP, 305 DPS, 1k alpha, locked into EM damage and tracking isn't much better than above ^
HML Drake - 78k EHP, 460 DPS, 2.9k alpha, semi-selectable damage type, good missile precision and each Drake has target painters ensuring solid hits

In both the above cases, the Drakes also have vastly superior resists to the other ships, meaning the synergise perfectly with logistics and with a fleet booster have tanks that rival battleships.

Post-"nerf".
Drake - 60-65k EHP, same DPS - but full selectable damage type, lower alpha.
Doesn't look too broken to me.

I have no idea what's going on in this thread. I can't even begin follow the argument between Duchess and the OP. They might not even actually be arguing, that's how little I can follow it.

Now, you put the drake solo in pvp and it pretty much sucks... The only advantage it has is it's tank, but in order to keep a well good effective tank on the drake, you must forgo things like dps and ewar.

HOWEVER, if I put several of any one type of ship together in a fleet it will still be a pretty powerful fleet.

So, we do what the OP said is happening a basically remove the only reason for EVER using a drake and that would be it's tank.

So now we have a small ship with crap dps AND a crap tank.

Right except your figures are currently conflicting with a little thing called "reality."
People can and do use Drakes, to insane effectiveness, in exactly the way you claim they don't work.

Fun fact here because it seems you've never actually used a missile ship (or you suck too badly in them to have a clue) - missile flight time really isn't a problem when your entire gang are also missile ships.


Once again a little thing called "reality" comes in here - if your Hurricane is so much better than a Drake (rofl HMLs in the utility highs. The evidence for you being a dribbling newbie mounts ever higher) why do people fly Drake blobs and not Hurricane blobs?

You also seem to be comparing a short range Hurricane fit to long range Drake fits, which makes your argument completely void. Try comparing an artillery Hurricane to a Drake, and then you'll see how utterly **** the cane is by comparison.

Seriously, before making a thread dedicated to whining about the (possible) Drake nerf, it helps to get some idea of what it is that makes the Drake OP in the first place.


No, what you have are a few DPS and EHP statistics that are utterly meaningless on their own. Here, I'll give you some statistics that are actually comperable to each other.

Close range (10-20km range)
Shield cane - 49k EHP, 700 DPS (point blank range) 350-400 DPS (20km range) - DPS mitigated further by tracking
Armour cane - Better EHP (but still lower than a Drake) and worse DPS across the board.
HAM Drake - 86k EHP, 610 DPS (tackle range) 560 DPS (11-20km) - applies full damage to tackled targets
PG implant HAM Drake - 83k EHP, 680 DPS (tackle range) 618 DPS (11-20km) - applies full damage to tackled targets
Harbinger - I'll provide stats if you really want, but there are like 3 different fits and all of them are inferior to the Drake.

Long range (50-70km)
Arty cane - 39k EHP, 280 DPS, 2.3k alpha, locked into explosive damage and has comically poor tracking
Beam harby - 42k EHP, 305 DPS, 1k alpha, locked into EM damage and tracking isn't much better than above ^
HML Drake - 78k EHP, 460 DPS, 2.9k alpha, semi-selectable damage type, good missile precision and each Drake has target painters ensuring solid hits

In both the above cases, the Drakes also have vastly superior resists to the other ships, meaning the synergise perfectly with logistics and with a fleet booster have tanks that rival battleships.

Post-"nerf".
Drake - 60-65k EHP, same DPS - but full selectable damage type, lower alpha.
Doesn't look too broken to me.

What someone else posted earlier on about buffing other tier 2 bc's is truly the only option.

I'll say again though, just because other tier 2 bc's suck worse than the drake doesn't mean that the drake is oh so good.

Buff the other bc's to have a bit more EHP in comparison to the drake.

Sure, they can maintain better dps and better alpha.

At least buffing the EHP of other bc's would mean instead of making them all unsuable in lvl 4 missions, you'll make them all a possible use, even though in some cases they're less effective than a bs or t3 cruiser.

nerfing the drake isn't going to balance anything, it's only gonna make the drake relatively unusable, even in pve.
So instead buff the other bc's.

Ahahahaha oh man he's completely losing it now. I'll take it as you conceeding the argument, as you failed to address a single point I made and instead started challenging me to a fight.
Oh and unless you have a main somewhere, the idea of fighting you wouldn't exactly worry me. Nice overdrive fitted Drake you have there, and are you sure your Scorpions have enough cap mods? Rofl.
No wonder you think these changes would break the Drake - with you piloting one they certainly would.
I might actually give the Drake another go with this change, I used to fly it a lot but it's probably one of the most boring PVP ships in the game.

Here, I'll even repost the bits you either ignored or were too brainless to understand (ask me if you need any of the big words defined)

At least I have kills....

I haven't conceeded your piont, I still waiting for you to say something relevent.

At least I have killsIt's called an alt. Besides, I'm not the one who claimed to have so much experience in all the BCs - that was you. I decided to do a quick search and oh look - a handfull of blob kills and failfit losses.....

Whatever you find on kill/loss stats will be horribly skewed by how widespread PVE and general newbie Drakes are. Stuff like that doesn't take into account the situations, the fits etc. etc.

Oh look, yet again ignoring every point I make. I'm done replying to you until you can muster up a basic argument, because all I've seen so far over 4 pages is "waaahhhhhh they're taking my shield bonus, the Drake shouldn't be nerfed because Minmatar have more OP ships" and then pretending everything that proves you wrong doesn't exist.

There's no reason whatsoever to nerf drakes yet again

if anything they could use an explosion velocity bonus without an ehp loss.

Lowest common denominator nerfing is the most ******** thing you can do in game design. It's not fun for your players.

Still no valid counterarguments, post ignored.

Neither are Drake blobs.

The last nerf being... what exactly? Quantum Rise was actually a buff to missiles. Besides that I can't think of any time the Drake has been changed.

I can't help it if you haven't been playing long enough to remember the last drake nerf.


Oh sure, and maybe another few mids and lows while you're at it? Perhaps some extra dronebay? And just to round it off, how about another 500m/s velocity.

For someone who asks for a valid argument, you sure don't give many yourself. Ignored.


Neither are Drake blobs.

I keep hearing the recurring 'the minmatar will get nerfed next' in this thread. Utter rubbish.

Look at the general state of nerf history in the game as they pertain to races. Minmatar ships will not get nerfed whatsoever. You that suggest it will happen, are delusional.

There's no reason whatsoever to nerf drakes yet again. If anything they could use an explosion velocity bonus without an ehp loss. Myrm could use it's drone bonus boosted up to 100m3, without nerfing it in any other way.

Lowest common denominator nerfing is the most ******** thing you can do in game design. It's not fun for your players.

when initiating combat missile boats must guess which range to warp in at

Now, there's a chance that the drakes are fitted with ham's

So now, the battle is close to 95% in favor of the turret fleet because they know EVERYTHING about the missile fleet to include numbers, potential dps, potential EHP, potential range, damage type, and on top of that they get to set the range of the battle knowing that they will be more effective than the missiles if they warp in at their optimal range.

But turrets have a very distinct advantage when engaging a missile fleet, and still have a fair shot when the missile fleet initiates.
So where's the balance in that?

Do you know the purpose of a blob??
TO OUT NUMBER YOUR OPPONENT!!!!

A fair argument - or it would be if not for the fact that Drakes can and do face off against equal numbers of heavier ships and win. They're just that good with logistics.
Regarding the video: yes, any ship can kill someone 50v1 - but Drakes can be 50 on 50 and still quite easily win.

An interesting note: I've yet to see anyone in this thread (or the others, for that matter) make a remotely convincing case for this change breaking the Drake. It still maintains EHP on par with the other BCs, and is better offensively.

A fair argument - or it would be if not for the fact that Drakes can and do face off against equal numbers of heavier ships and win. They're just that good with logistics.
Regarding the video: yes, any ship can kill someone 50v1 - but Drakes can be 50 on 50 and still quite easily win.

An interesting note: I've yet to see anyone in this thread (or the others, for that matter) make a remotely convincing case for this change breaking the Drake. It still maintains EHP on par with the other BCs, and is better offensively.

I've not seen any concrete numbers to prove how much better it may be offensively

not only would their Tank be suffering from 25% less resistances of every type, but you would need to have at least one Target Painter to have any hope of realizing a true DPS gain further gimping the Tank

... You mean apart from the 25% DPS gain when using EM/Thermal/Explosive missiles?

Oh look, another person claiming Drakes are fine who obviously doesn't know how to fit one. You know that 80k EHP figure I keep quoting? And the 60-65 post-change figure?
That's with a 3 slot tank. 3 slots out of 6. I think you can figure out the rest?

Because in pvp everyone omni-tanks and attempts to have as close to equal resistances as possible, so reguardless of which damage type the drake uses it will have the same general dps against it's target.

Meaning it will have to reduce it's tank for more effective dps

Fiddler's take on the last call for a drake nerf, 2010

http://fiddlersedge.blogspot.com/2010/10/nerfing-drake.html

Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced. When you get 50+ of them all buffer tanking and alpha striking people at up to ~85km as the current FOTM strategy is out there, this underpins their usefulness (max buffer for sig/speed tank and max range with same damage) so this is a scenario specific issue to large fleet warfare.

There is no way to nerf the Drake in a large fleet context without nerfing it in a solo or small gang context where it has long been considered balanced by CCP.

Minmatar have been nerf multiple times I really don't know what you are talking about. Minmatar ships where heavily nerfed by the big EHP buff that happened to all ships. They were heavily nerfed by the nano and speed nerfs. The were heavily nerfed by the stacking nerf on damage mods. It is called Flavor of the Month. People are sad because drakes getting nerfed and if you are a newbee I can see why. Gunboats take a much longer time to be good in because of the additional gunnery support skills. But changes happen, look at how a lot of people use to think AMAR Battleships were the bee's knees. The game cycles with gun's and missiles being better/worse and armor/shield tanking being better or worse and right now passive/active tanks with passive high EHP tanks being better for fleets when you have logi's healing you and running a rep being a thing that actually hurts your tank.

The game is fluid not static and you will be trained for when said ship is better again.

Boost the unused ships - particularly those not used in PvE OR PvP (Tier 1 BC's, Blops) so that they have a feasible role once more

(...) Truth be told, however, Canes are pretty darn awesome. When did you last see a Ferox?

Source: Eve Kill Top 20 ships in PVP

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 115829
2 Tengu 82773

Hey Duchess Starshitforbrains

Why don't you come out to Gallente-Caldari low sec in your super Drake and I'd be more than happy to show you just how "noob fit" my 2 HML autocane really is .

In fact,Just come out ,if you think I am so new...I'd be happy to "school you" on just how little you know what you are talking about.

I lost several IQ points trawling through the last page of rubbish, so rather than my usual point-by-point post (which gets ignored anyway, by morons like the OP) I'll just say this:

Does anyone actually have any reasonable evidence for this change breaking the Drake?
Bearing in mind the fact that a post-nerf Drake will have better long range performance, full selectable damage type, similar EHP to the other battlecruisers and can still fit both tank, gank and EWAR without having to compromise.

That really doesn't look too broken to me.

Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced. When you get 50+ of them all buffer tanking and alpha striking people at up to ~85km as the current FOTM strategy is out there, this underpins their usefulness (max buffer for sig/speed tank and max range with same damage) so this is a scenario specific issue to large fleet warfare.

There is no way to nerf the Drake in a large fleet context without nerfing it in a solo or small gang context where it has long been considered balanced by CCP.

In mass numbers the drake is extremely powerful.

Snip bs's, and whatever else and eventually, players have found a way to counter it.

So in general, nerfing isn't always the answer. You can't nerf something based on one single aspect of the game when it is balanced for other aspects of the game. That's how you cause an even worse imbalance..

For the uninitiated idiots who think that resistance bonuses actually give you 25% better resists let me explain something. They don't.-á

The Drake's resists will not go down by 25%. They will actually only drop by an average of 8.175% actual (dual invul DC II fit).-á
Seriously. This is a BUFF!
Moar DPS. No longer stuck in kinetic damage type. Faster missiles. Forget the resist bonus. Take the buff and stop moaning.-á

Just wanted to make sure everyone read the KEY portions of that thread....

And as small gang warfare consitutes 90 percent of PVP, nerfing it to "balance" a very small part of pvp whilst unbalancing it for the vast majority of pvp is simply ludicrous.

lol internet spaceship tough guy

Lol, well if your gonna call someone a pvp noob, you BETTER be willing to put your mony where your mouth is. Having NO measurable combat experience herself, and making comments which show a general lack of knowledge of PVP game mechanics; makes duchess big mouth's comments morinic to begin with.

please tell me how the proposed changes would in anyway make the drake unbalanced

im all ears

Are you brain dead or something? Your first post boils down to "hurrrrrr its one of the few caldari ships used, leave it alone." You realize it can be used and be OP right?

The tank on the drake will go down marginally. HAM setups will be much better (oh god you might have to fit a web or painter? how horrible). So you won't have an 85k EHP Tier 2 bc anymore. What you will have is a Tier 2 bc that can take advantage of both short and long range weapon systems quite effectively.

No, I am not brain dead, as my ability on this forum to BOTH present data AND anylize it shows.

you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala I can't hear you".
That's why you're a moron.

And for the record, if and when this change hits - I might just start flying Drakes again. The HAM fit will be a lot more interesting, and as I have a clue how to fit mine it'll still have a solid tank.

The HAM drake will further outperform the sacrilege as a brawler.

I also presented data with an accompanying analysis - you ignored it.
I also posted a rebuttal of every argument you made, point by point - you ignored it.
I also posted accurate stats of the post-"nerf" Drake, showing in numerical terms that you're so fond of why it wouldn't be broken. You ignored that as well.

The only thing you've "shown" in this entire thread is that you have no idea how to fit or use a Drake properly, or even any basic understanding of how other people fit and use Drakes.

You're not even pretending to debate this any more, you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala I can't hear you".
That's why you're a moron.

And for the record, if and when this change hits - I might just start flying Drakes again. The HAM fit will be a lot more interesting, and as I have a clue how to fit mine it'll still have a solid tank.

You think that by calling people names and insulting them untill they stop talking to you, you are WINING a debate.

Numbers can show anything.

Changing the way those numbers are presented tells a whole different story:

Minmatar: 308695
Caldari: 210891
Amarr: 119615
Pirate: 14129
Gallente: 11781

To me, that says Winmatar are over powered and Gallente are under powered.

I would look at ways to nerf Winmatar in general,(probably a small nerf to autocannons) and a buff to Gallente (possibly speed?)

Give it a few months and then see how it shakes out.

That shows me that Minnie and Calgary are used more in blobs and Gallente are more small gang

The Drake is fine as it is -- just because many people are flying it, it doesn't mean that it's a problem.


Your post shows me that you are an idiot.

but i dont like the talk of changing the cane.

personally i disagree with most peoples arguments of ships being over powered which somehow unbalance the game. its not like you cant train to fly it yourself. if you dont like your race, why did you choose them? I'm all for having ccp design a gellente and/or an amarr bc overpowered in their own way. I say things are too even, and should be more diverse.

I have to say... raw numbers never give the truth in-depth.

The drake is a strong candidate for pvp because it has a great slot layout, great bonuses for a tier 2 BC, and is easy for PvE players to switch into.

Ask yourselves this:

What do all of the other Tier 2 BC's have for bonuses? exactly.

When was the last time this ship was nerfed? k.


I mean, if you're going to argue that the ship shouldn't be nerfed, bring more to the table than a single list of kills. There is more at work in each kill involved than is stated, which can give people a biased decision.

CCP also nerfs ships on occasion and buffs them. Deal with it like everyone else. One niche ship should not stay niche forever. the minmatar ships work well in pvp because people simply don't have the patience to combat fast ships correctly (at least in my experience with fleet warfare).

All CCP really has to say is "The Drake does not follow the standards of Tier 2 Battlecruisers." and the nerf ensues.

-Personally, I don't want the Drake to be 'nerfed,' but realistically.... you have to have seen it coming eventually... people have been complaining about its capabilities for ages.

At the very least they should have said that a LARGE portion of the player base will dislike this change.

Only the ones who suck at flying them. For the rest of us, this change is actually a huge buff.
(Oh and the carebears flying them in level 4s I guess, but the Drake sucks at that anyway so this'll be doing them a favour.)

More baseless accusations and general bullshit

Now you can hit at about 25km. Hooray. That's not kiting. That's spitting into the wind.

Have any of you actually tried to fit a full set of HAMs and 2x LSE IIs on a Drake?

It does not do a whole lot of damage

For the Drake to use HAMs it would need a complete overhaul. By the time the devs were done, it would no longer be a Caldari ship.

If the Drake gets its passive tank nerfed, it won't hurt its PvP activities at all. Most folks buffer fit Drakes

The following is an excerpt from the December 2011 meeting minutes:

[bSource: Eve Kill Top 20 ships in PVP

Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 115829
2 Tengu 82773
3 Maelstrom 81285
4 Hurricane 68436
....................

Those numbers by itself say almost nothing:

On many occasions Duchess Starbuckington and I have been in disagreement over certain topics.

However, we seem to be of the same opinion that this is (more of) a BUFF for the Drake and not (that bad) a nerf.

I have to say... raw numbers never give the truth in-depth.

The drake is a strong candidate for pvp because it has a great slot layout, great bonuses for a tier 2 BC, and is easy for PvE players to switch into.

Ask yourselves this:

What do all of the other Tier 2 BC's have for bonuses? exactly.

When was the last time this ship was nerfed? k.


I mean, if you're going to argue that the ship shouldn't be nerfed, bring more to the table than a single list of kills. There is more at work in each kill involved than is stated, which can give people a biased decision.

CCP also nerfs ships on occasion and buffs them. Deal with it like everyone else. One niche ship should not stay niche forever. the minmatar ships work well in pvp because people simply don't have the patience to combat fast ships correctly (at least in my experience with fleet warfare).

All CCP really has to say is "The Drake does not follow the standards of Tier 2 Battlecruisers." and the nerf ensues.

-Personally, I don't want the Drake to be 'nerfed,' but realistically.... you have to have seen it coming eventually... people have been complaining about its capabilities for ages.

Only the ones who suck at flying them. For the rest of us, this change is actually a huge buff.
(Oh and the carebears flying them in level 4s I guess, but the Drake sucks at that anyway so this'll be doing them a favour.)

If the Drake is going to be changed to make it more "specialized"... why is its tank being taken away? The Drake's claim to fame was its tank and it blows my mind how the very people who designed it don't realize that.

It's just going to become some sort of ****** sibling of the Raven and Caracal after these changes. Heavy Missiles have a good range already, the extra range is useless to me. If it needs to be changed, I'd much rather have its resistance bonus doubled and damage bonus taken away. There, now it's specialized. (Not that it would make a difference anyways, I'd just drop a Shield Relay for a Ballistic Control Unit).

Hearing about this made me switch training into projectiles. Honestly, there's so few decent missile ships as it is, it's a bad idea to tinker with the ones that work.

Kill it? The drake will be a ******* monster now. Instead of just dealing kinetic it can deal all 4 at once without any loss of effectiveness, at ranges exceeding 80 km. New drake will be a ******* bulldozer.

i remember when everybody used to complain the drake was useless at pvp, afaik they havent changed it so....

That's the comical part. The drake sucks at PvP. it's the only thing Crapdari have left though.

They're craptastic at pvp, except when in blobs or facing an obviously inferior ship. In comparison, everything is capable of this, however they have fittings capabilities that allow them to face off against equal or even superior ships, which the Drake cannot do.

Everything is situational, however the drake is pretty good for solo pvp.
I'd have no problem facing a cane 1v1, only problem may be he nuets the point before I kill him.

I've jumped into multiple gate camps in a drake, and came out on top.
Its about managing range and knowing what ships you can and can't take.

Its easier to fly a drake than any other BC... its effective with the right skills and knowledge... however its often flown by PVE characters as their training nappy into pvp. This is why its hated on soo much, as even nubs can get in it, and be hard to take down.. granted they are only doing 200dps.. but this obviously gets on peoples nerves.

Check eve-kill, you will go through atleast 3 drakes before you find a semi decent fit.

Everything is situational, however the drake is pretty good for solo pvp.
I'd have no problem facing a cane 1v1, only problem may be he nuets the point before I kill him.

I've jumped into multiple gate camps in a drake, and came out on top.
Its about managing range and knowing what ships you can and can't take.

Its easier to fly a drake than any other BC... its effective with the right skills and knowledge... however its often flown by PVE characters as their training nappy into pvp. This is why its hated on soo much, as even nubs can get in it, and be hard to take down.. granted they are only doing 200dps.. but this obviously gets on peoples nerves.

Check eve-kill, you will go through atleast 3 drakes before you find a semi decent fit.

LEAVE THE DRAKE ALONG.

Drakes did need to be brought to line with the other battlecruisers, some way or another. Not sure if this is the correct way. To be honest I would have been happier with an all-around battlecruiser buffing.

When you factor the t3's can spank battlecruisers (a larger size vessel) with absolutely no problems, yeah...I'd say they could use a buff.

.....a T3 ship one size below a T1 ship can beat it and you think this is imbalanced?

:idonteven:

I don't have a problem with them beating them necessarily. It's the fact that they can pwn them like the hulk with a doggy toy..

Sorry but thats a good thing.

A T2 fit T3 easily costs more than 500 mil. It should be able to easily defeat a T1 battlecruiser

T3 cruisers are quite fine in their current incarnation.

Get some experience actually flying them before you comment on it.

Actually that statement holds true for all of the balance discussion we engage in.

I have still yet to see anyone credibly refute a single point I (and the other pro-"nerf" posters) have made. I'll try and make this simple for the whining carebear OP and co:

- The removal of the shield resistance bonus places the Drake on par with the other BCs for tank, not below them. With a balanced fit, you're looking at around 60-65k EHP.
- This is a huge buff to the Drake's DPS/applied DPS.
- This is only a PVE nerf (highly debatably) to level 4 mission runners, and the Drake is a **** level 4 ship anyway so really not much has changed.
- If you really think this change will break the Drake, please present some proper evidence, because I've run the numbers and it's looking like a damn good ship with these new bonuses.
You have my deepest sympathies for the fact you might have to actually use your brains to figure out how to fly it properly with the changes.

TL:DR: The Drake will still be an excellent ship post-revamp. I refuse to seriously refer to this as a PVP nerf when all I'm seeing so far is a pretty respectable buff/rebalance.

I have the tengu maxed out in every possible variation. I have all possible missile, shield, support, and velocity skills that would effect the tengu maxed out.
With my current pve form I have 705 dps and am capable of a much more durable tank than a golem, not to mention its much faster and smaller.

Is this op? Yes, but only as a cruiser sized vessel.

If you were to compare its capabilities with any other cruiser and were then to apply the difference to a battleship class t3, then that BS would essentially have over 2k dps with the effective tank of a rattlesnake. Does that sound Op for a BS class vessel? If not than you really need to reconsider what you deem to be balance.
Oh, and my tengu fit also lock quickly and has 35 sensor strength.

I have still yet to see anyone credibly refute a single point I (and the other pro-"nerf" posters) have made. I'll try and make this simple for the whining carebear OP and co:

- The removal of the shield resistance bonus places the Drake on par with the other BCs for tank, not below them. With a balanced fit, you're looking at around 60-65k EHP.
- This is a huge buff to the Drake's DPS/applied DPS.
- This is only a PVE nerf (highly debatably) to level 4 mission runners, and the Drake is a **** level 4 ship anyway so really not much has changed.
- If you really think this change will break the Drake, please present some proper evidence, because I've run the numbers and it's looking like a damn good ship with these new bonuses.
You have my deepest sympathies for the fact you might have to actually use your brains to figure out how to fly it properly with the changes.

TL:DR: The Drake will still be an excellent ship post-revamp. I refuse to seriously refer to this as a PVP nerf when all I'm seeing so far is a pretty respectable buff/rebalance.

A cane can pull out much more effective dps while still having a large enough buffer tank to spank a Drake 1v1

Start taking g away it's tank

not just allowing it to do equal dps with all damege types and you're doing g nothing but removing one of its 2 attributes that make it reomtely usable in pvp. 1 being tank and 2 being missiles having no optimal range.

aren't you glad this thread was necrod? you get to repeat everything you expressed previously to the same crowd of people with 0 experience in the matter, essentially banging your head against a wall...and they still won't get it

why do we bother?