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Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group PURGE.
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:18:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Alski Face the truth, this is an MMO, and CCP wants you to play it as one.
I lol'ed at this. Like for real out loud. I refuse to believe this :)
~Treb
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Morfane
The IMorral MAjority
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:20:00 -
[62]
I would be much more receptive to your ideas if you didn't lie to my face.
You don't care about slots on freighters. You are not a "freighters are underpowered" club member, or even an armchair advocate. You simply want empire ganks to stop.
Admit it. The truth will set you free.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar Sicarri Covenant
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:22:00 -
[63]
A freighter is just that, a freighter... freight as in cargo carrying, not a weapons platform. Freighters rely on other ships to protect them
Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking
Originally by: TheDagda *click* For the love of the jovians stops necroing
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Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:27:00 -
[64]
tbh I am surprised these solo Freighter pilots chugging around in high sec, aren't asking for a teleport device.
That way they can avoid all that unnecessary warping and gate jumping, that makes their life so complicated
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
Kailiani
Fracked Up beyond All Recognition
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:33:00 -
[65]
Only way to defend is with support logistics ships in empire. I'd be pretty damn bored 'defending' a freighter for days/weeks on in for several hours/day and never have anything happen. While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.
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Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:37:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Kailiani
While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.
Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec It should only take you a couple of hours
Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week Try to put some perspective on this.
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
Majestik
Gallente Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:38:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Majestik on 24/09/2007 04:41:32
Originally by: Par Bobot NO I HAVE NOT LOST ONE.
Honestly , every ship in game has the ability to try to protect itself except Freighters excluding shuttles . Pods are not a ship.
Give freighters 1-2 lows and 1-2 mids. It atleast gives them some sort of ability to proect themselves..You Devs are always stating changes are for balancing but freighters are not. You added the ability of them to drop loot but not defend themselves??? Where is the balance in that??I have nothing against suicide gankers but lets give a near bill capital ship some defences. I mean ITS A FREAKIN CAPITAL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I read a lot of scifi space operas...TV,movies and there is always a fighter escort with large freighters. And that is a big freighter.
I alway use the freighter with escort like a logistic or something like a Command ship and scouts. Sometimes use fitted fast transport out of Jita to load freighter in low traffic area to continue on if needed. I consider this balance.
No AFK.
No problems. And I don't pvp at all.....just trade mostly and use common sense. Trade and profit.
Btw, The Ky Vatta series by Elisabeth Moon is pretty good. Sort of the same atmosphere as the game except the walking on stations which will be next year from what I'm reading. I am reading "Marque and Reprisal" right now. The series is about a female space freighter captain.
Love this game.
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Kailiani
Fracked Up beyond All Recognition
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:41:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: Kailiani
While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.
Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec It should only take you a couple of hours
Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week Try to put some perspective on this.
Sure, here's some perspective based on your numbers. 7 x 24 = 168 / 20 = 8.4 hours per gank.
Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?
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Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:45:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kailiani
Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?
Your math is seriously flawed
If you like, I can give you the number of hours spent tracking targets that were not destroyed, maybe that will clue you up a little.
Like I say, come back when you have ganked a freighter in high sec. Then you can tell me how easy it is.
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:45:00 -
[70]
ANY series by Elizabeth moon is awesome
but yeah I think these transport pilots could learn alot from Trading In Danger heh
1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo. |
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Kailiani
Fracked Up beyond All Recognition
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:50:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Kailiani on 24/09/2007 04:54:41
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: Kailiani
Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?
Your math is seriously flawed
If you like, I can give you the number of hours spent tracking targets that were not destroyed, maybe that will clue you up a little.
Like I say, come back when you have ganked a freighter in high sec. Then you can tell me how easy it is.
I'm using numbers that you said above. You said 20 ganks a week.
Now first we find the number of days in a week, 7 days. Then multiply that by 24 hours per day and you get 168 hour per week. Divide hours per week by number of ganks per week and you get 8.4 hours per gank.
Of course, you probably knew that already and its not my math thats flawed but rather you don't want to contradict yourself.
Based on your numbers 8.4 would be just the 'average'(look it up in dictionary.com) time to get your billion isk from the freighter.
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Lavinrac Krad
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:54:00 -
[72]
I agree freighters need to be fixed:
50% LESS Hull, Armor, Shields, Speed, and Agility. It is too hard to take down freighters
-Sig Starts- Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER! --If I were god, then I'd nerf mice and men, like in that sayin |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:56:00 -
[73]
Can't stand how vulnerable your freighter is waiting to align and jump? Have a corp mate/alt web and bump you into warp.. Problem solved.. Thats how your 'escort' helps you..
Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:58:00 -
[74]
The problem with Freighters isn't that they can be ganked in high sec. Its the fact that its next to impossible to really protect them in high sec from ganks, with 7k shields and 25k armor (going off my charon) Any logistics help to keep you alive while your enemies are killing you is rendered inefficient. With the current situation of Domi's being the preferred gank ship for freighters any support the freighter has will be about as effective as concord which is about worthless.
So the questions is how to change that and allow you to actually survive a camp with that help instead of just killing those who killed the freighter. My suggestion would be to give them freighters more shields say about 40-50k, and 3-4 mid slots. Freighters can't target anyone so you won't see directed ECM being a problem. ECM burst won't be a issue in empire because it won't really save you from drones and it would be too high of a risk even against blaster setups.
So that would leave a Shield booster and Hardeners in the mids which would be able to help your guards actually do more then avenge your death. And even if you gave it the power grid to fit a capital shield booster, if you don't change the cap setup its only going to get 2 maybe 3 bursts of shields before running out of cap. And that 2 or 3 may just help keep you out of armor and hull long enough for the logistics to support to kick in and the bodyguards/concord be able to start reducing the incoming damage.
Freighters should have crap solo tanks but they need to have the buffers to actually utilize support craft and allow your escort to save you, something that they can not do at the moment as shown by the laughable amount of ships that can eat a freighter. -----------------------------------------------
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Kailiani
Fracked Up beyond All Recognition
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:03:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 24/09/2007 04:56:36 Can't stand how vulnerable your freighter is waiting to align and warp? Have a corp mate/alt web and bump you into warp.. Problem solved.. Thats how your 'escort' helps you..
Freighter dead in 10 seconds, GL with that.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5oK8Ytr1I_Y&mode=related&search=
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:06:00 -
[76]
kind of pointless gank, with that many pilots there is NO profit in the gank at all
1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo. |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:07:00 -
[77]
I guess what we really need are T2 blockade runner freighters.. No slots but really good resists and 25~50% less cargo bay with +2 to warp strenght.. Every class of ship in the game has one or more T2 varients with BS getting some love after Rev III.. So why not freighters too?
Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:10:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:14:46
Originally by: Kailiani
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: Kailiani
While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.
Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec It should only take you a couple of hours
Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week Try to put some perspective on this.
Sure, here's some perspective based on your numbers. 7 x 24 = 168 / 20 = 8.4 hours per gank.
Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?
You forgot a number in those maths, that is the number of people requred, a Basilisk logistics ship with max skills will add about 284 DPS worth of tanking to a freighter, or two of them for about 570 DPS of indefinate tanking, a domi with a crazy little setup i just made in EFT based on my skills would rep 431 DPS for 2 minute 40 seconds solid, two of them could repair 861 DPS, all DPS numbers are not even factored for the freighters resists
Thats one or 2 ships to keep a 3rd alive, how many domi's does it take to kill a freighter? we are talking man-hours here right?
edit: and yes i know that a freighter gank fleet puts out more damage than those setups can repair, however all the hostiles WILL die, if you extend the life of the freighter by even 30%, its highley likeley that all the hostile ships will die before the freighter go's down, leaveing you with just a heafty repair bill and the gankers seriousley down on isk. -
(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom. |
Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:13:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme kind of pointless gank, with that many pilots there is NO profit in the gank at all
Random ganks aren't really the problem since one that can kill you fast enough tend to be rare. Its the fact that if they are trying to hunt a specific freighter, when the gank fleet gets in contact with it at the moment it WILL be destroyed. note that there isn't a maybe destroyed with out the proper defense fleet. It's far too binary of an outcome at the moment. its extremely hard to protect one compared to the actual effort of killing one(yes I realize they are a ***** to track down). -----------------------------------------------
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:18:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Alski Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:14:46
Originally by: Kailiani
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: Kailiani
While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.
Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec It should only take you a couple of hours
Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week Try to put some perspective on this.
Sure, here's some perspective based on your numbers. 7 x 24 = 168 / 20 = 8.4 hours per gank.
Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?
You forgot a number in those maths, that is the number of people requred, a Basilisk logistics ship with max skills will add about 284 DPS worth of tanking to a freighter, or two of them for about 570 DPS of indefinate tanking, a domi with a crazy little setup i just made in EFT based on my skills would rep 431 DPS for 2 minute 40 seconds solid, two of them could repair 861 DPS, all DPS numbers are not even factored for the freighters resists
Thats one or 2 ships to keep a 3rd alive, how many domi's does it take to kill a freighter? we are talking man-hours here right?
edit: and yes i know that a freighter gank fleet puts out more damage than those setups can repair, however all the hostiles WILL die, if you extend the life of the freighter by even 30%, its highley likeley that all the hostile ships will die before the freighter go's down, leaveing you with just a heafty repair bill and the gankers seriousley down on isk.
HYou also need to remember with a gank squads alpha you will be into structure before you get your first rep off, and as such your actually repped amount will not be as effective. And with rep cycles of 5 + seconds the domi's will have you back down to 0 shield and armor again for the next rep. -----------------------------------------------
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:26:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif
Originally by: Alski Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:14:46
Originally by: Kailiani
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: Kailiani
While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.
Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec It should only take you a couple of hours
Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week Try to put some perspective on this.
Sure, here's some perspective based on your numbers. 7 x 24 = 168 / 20 = 8.4 hours per gank.
Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?
You forgot a number in those maths, that is the number of people requred, a Basilisk logistics ship with max skills will add about 284 DPS worth of tanking to a freighter, or two of them for about 570 DPS of indefinate tanking, a domi with a crazy little setup i just made in EFT based on my skills would rep 431 DPS for 2 minute 40 seconds solid, two of them could repair 861 DPS, all DPS numbers are not even factored for the freighters resists
Thats one or 2 ships to keep a 3rd alive, how many domi's does it take to kill a freighter? we are talking man-hours here right?
edit: and yes i know that a freighter gank fleet puts out more damage than those setups can repair, however all the hostiles WILL die, if you extend the life of the freighter by even 30%, its highley likeley that all the hostile ships will die before the freighter go's down, leaveing you with just a heafty repair bill and the gankers seriousley down on isk.
HYou also need to remember with a gank squads alpha you will be into structure before you get your first rep off, and as such your actually repped amount will not be as effective. And with rep cycles of 5 + seconds the domi's will have you back down to 0 shield and armor again for the next rep.
Very good point, i forgot freighters have pooy shields.
Domi with 6 armor reps and my skills: 384 DPS, 2 of em would be 768. 8 domi's with my carrier alts skills (highley unlikeley) and no guns: 2800 DPS Freighter tanking time extender by: 36.4% before resists. -
(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom. |
Martosh Toma
Gallente Fraction Investment
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:33:00 -
[82]
Say that right now it is feaseble to suicide a freighter if it carries 1B in goods (not sure this is exactly right but for the sage of argument lets assume it is, it only changes the numbers)
Say ccp improves its tanking ability to effectively double its hp. Result: bigger gang awaiting freighter after it has been scanned and bumped, provided it carries 2B in mods
So you will not eliminate high sec ganking, just raise the bar as to what amount of cargo will be profiteble. So even if they should do this I expect the whining about high sec ganking to return about 48 hours after the change.
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Nicoli Voldkif
Caelli-Merced INC. Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:43:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Alski Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:27:14 Very good point, i forgot freighters have pooy shields.
Domi with 6 armor reps and my skills: 384 DPS, 2 of em would be 768. 8 hostile domi's with my carrier alts skills (highley unlikeley) and no guns fielding ogre I's : 2800 DPS Freighter tanking time extended by: 36.4% before resists.
With the Current setup scene of about 15 Domis with a Large hitpoint buffer with modest expectation of 746 dps( 6 T1 Neutrons, 5 Ogre IIs, one Mag stab) they'll kill a Charon in about 116-20 seconds. Effective cost of the ships after insurance, 375mil.
Now even with support at the current moment you'll lose the freighter way to fast for logistics to be of any real help, It takes 2 Logistic Domis to cancel a single gank domi. Even with 2 command ships with Shield harmonizing and the armor resist link that I can't think of off they still don't have enough of a buffer in hitpoints to allow logistics to be really effective. -----------------------------------------------
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Grendelsbane
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:47:00 -
[84]
No amount of modules and slots short of giving it a DDD is really going to make a difference; you are a freighter, therefore you are a target, and in EVE you either fight together or die alone. You cannot "protect yourself" no matter what you can or cannot fit. Freighter is not a Solowtfhaulmobile.
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Majestik
Gallente Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:51:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Majestik on 24/09/2007 05:52:48
Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif
Originally by: Alski Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:27:14 Very good point, i forgot freighters have pooy shields.
Domi with 6 armor reps and my skills: 384 DPS, 2 of em would be 768. 8 hostile domi's with my carrier alts skills (highley unlikeley) and no guns fielding ogre I's : 2800 DPS Freighter tanking time extended by: 36.4% before resists.
With the Current setup scene of about 15 Domis with a Large hitpoint buffer with modest expectation of 746 dps( 6 T1 Neutrons, 5 Ogre IIs, one Mag stab) they'll kill a Charon in about 116-20 seconds. Effective cost of the ships after insurance, 375mil.
Now even with support at the current moment you'll lose the freighter way to fast for logistics to be of any real help, It takes 2 Logistic Domis to cancel a single gank domi. Even with 2 command ships with Shield harmonizing and the armor resist link that I can't think of off they still don't have enough of a buffer in hitpoints to allow logistics to be really effective.
That gathering would look very suspicious to scouts in high sec. Sounds exciting.
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Kailiani
Fracked Up beyond All Recognition
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Posted - 2007.09.24 05:52:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Kailiani on 24/09/2007 05:54:01
Originally by: Alski Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:14:46
Originally by: Kailiani
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: Kailiani
While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.
Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec It should only take you a couple of hours
Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week Try to put some perspective on this.
Sure, here's some perspective based on your numbers. 7 x 24 = 168 / 20 = 8.4 hours per gank.
Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?
You forgot a number in those maths, that is the number of people requred, a Basilisk logistics ship with max skills will add about 284 DPS worth of tanking to a freighter, or two of them for about 570 DPS of indefinate tanking, a domi with a crazy little setup i just made in EFT based on my skills would rep 431 DPS for 2 minute 40 seconds solid, two of them could repair 861 DPS, all DPS numbers are not even factored for the freighters resists
It took concord 20 seconds to respond and get the BS into structure. Charon has about 140000 effective hitpoints vs Explosive damage, which is its weakest point.
Thats 7000 DPS required to beable to get the freighter before concord kills you. 10 budget domi's can do that. Say 75 mill per domi = less then the freighter cost alone.
You would'nt even attack the freighter if it was that close before concord kills you if he had support though, so thats pointless arguement.
Also 570 rep per second from 2 logistic ships is only 8.3% of 7000 damage per second. You'd need alot more logistics to be completely safe.
Quote: Thats one or 2 ships to keep a 3rd alive, how many domi's does it take to kill a freighter? we are talking man-hours here right?
Say freighter goes 2 hours a day for a 3 weeks before being ganked. He's always got 2 logistics following him. Thats 84 hours of work for just the 2 logistic ships NOT including the freighter itself.
10 domis to spend 8.4 hours hunting down a freighter = 84 man hours.
10 domi's BEFORE insurance doesnt even cost as much as the freighter. Let alone any cargo in the freighter thats worth 2+ billion, 50% lost leaves 250+ mill profit BEFORE insurance payouts.
Freighter loses ~3 billion. Rinse&repeat
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Captian Internet
Lead Bricks
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Posted - 2007.09.24 06:03:00 -
[87]
Remote Repping ships that pre rep when a lock is confirmed on the target. That would slow down the pain train
Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts |
Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.24 06:10:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Kailiani
Say freighter goes 2 hours a day for 3 weeks before being ganked. He's always got 2 logistics following him. Thats 84 hours of work for just the 2 logistic ships NOT including the freighter itself.
10 domis to spend 8.4 hours hunting down a freighter = 84 man hours.
10 domi's(75 mill each) before insurance don't even cost as much as the freighter. Let alone any cargo in the freighter thats worth 2+ billion. 50% cargo loss leaves 250+ mill profit BEFORE insurance payouts.
Freighter loses ~3 billion. Rinse&repeat
The time / manpower required for defence is undoubtabley the best argument for a fix of some kind, allthough i honestley can't see anyone ganking a freighter thats only carreying 2b isk worth of loot, at 50% loss devided by 15 players thats 60m each! that doesent even cover the market price of the ships, let alone insurance or fittings or time, even if it was 4b isk @ 50% loss, might as well run missions tbh.
See the real issue is that people get ganked for putting 10b isk worth of stuff in a freighter and expecting to be safe (if you are correct about 15 ships required, i can't see how anyone would do it for less than 5b) the key here is that for normal day to day hauling, freighter pilots do not need to worrey. If however they are carreying 10b isk worth of crap, better bring help -
(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom. |
fire 59
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.09.24 06:19:00 -
[89]
Nothing wrong with how it is if you use your brain
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Kailiani
Fracked Up beyond All Recognition
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Posted - 2007.09.24 06:22:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Kailiani on 24/09/2007 06:22:40
Originally by: Alski
Originally by: Kailiani
Say freighter goes 2 hours a day for 3 weeks before being ganked. He's always got 2 logistics following him. Thats 84 hours of work for just the 2 logistic ships NOT including the freighter itself.
10 domis to spend 8.4 hours hunting down a freighter = 84 man hours.
10 domi's(75 mill each) before insurance don't even cost as much as the freighter. Let alone any cargo in the freighter thats worth 2+ billion. 50% cargo loss leaves 250+ mill profit BEFORE insurance payouts.
Freighter loses ~3 billion. Rinse&repeat
The time / manpower required for defence is undoubtabley the best argument for a fix of some kind, allthough i honestley can't see anyone ganking a freighter thats only carreying 2b isk worth of loot, at 50% loss devided by 15 players thats 60m each! that doesent even cover the market price of the ships, let alone insurance or fittings or time, even if it was 4b isk @ 50% loss, might as well run missions tbh.
See the real issue is that people get ganked for putting 10b isk worth of stuff in a freighter and expecting to be safe (if you are correct about 15 ships required, i can't see how anyone would do it for less than 5b) the key here is that for normal day to day hauling, freighter pilots do not need to worrey. If however they are carreying 10b isk worth of crap, better bring help
Quote: With the Current setup scene of about 15 Domis with a Large hitpoint buffer with modest expectation of 746 dps( 6 T1 Neutrons, 5 Ogre IIs, one Mag stab) they'll kill a Charon in about 16-20 seconds. Effective cost of the ships after insurance, 375mil.
Quoted from last post on 3rd page.
375 mill for 15 domies after insurance. 66m profit each ;/.
Still if you really dislike someone, or have a corp you dont like you can kill off their freighter at less then half the cost of the freighter.
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