Quote:

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I mean ITS A FREAKIN CAPITAL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally by: Marcera

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Quote:

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I mean ITS A FREAKIN CAPITAL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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No it is not, does not need cap skill
SKILL NO, but it useses Capital Components to make and requires Capital Production skill to make.


As for to fix them, there is a thing called have ship defending it

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Originally by: Thanos Draicon

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This thread fails.

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Originally by: Missy Saints

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Edited by: Missy Saints on 24/09/2007 02:10:08

Originally by: Marcera

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Quote:

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I mean ITS A FREAKIN CAPITAL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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No it is not, does not need cap skill
SKILL NO, but it useses Capital Components to make and requires Capital Production skill to make.


As for to fix them, there is a thing called have ship defending it

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Not the point.. the ship was modded to drop loot but nothing to defend itself = unbalanced.

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Originally by: Christari Zuborov

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Regardless of whether it's balanced or not, making the mainstay of your argument as, "it was mod'd to drop loot", isn't a point to stand from. Everything drops loot in the game, so it's just as easy to argue that it was bugged and needed fixing.

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Originally by: Tortun Nahme

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zomg podee is posting! fanbois unite!

Podee! Podee!

*gushes*

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Originally by: Alski

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Face the truth, this is an MMO, and CCP wants you to play it as one.

"hey everyone I'm undocking in my XYZ ship come protect me!!"

By that logic, when entering into a potentialey hostile situation, a carrier doesent need any battleships, and the battleships don't need any support, and the support don't need any tacklers right? carrier > all? nope. everyone needs support in a potentialey hostile situation.

But all of those ships can mount some sprt of DEFENSE..

And 1b isk ship with no defences in a game where you are NEVER trueley safe anywhere, while carreying upto or beyond multiple billions of isks worth of loot is exactley what i'd call a potentialey hostile situation.

Exactly so why does it not have the right to defend itsself?

Becides anything else, what are you going to fit in those slots? a few ECM won't do anything to save you, sensor damps even less, and a captal armor rep will let you tank about 650+ DPS (thats a lot) with no hardeners... in a ship that is NOT soposed to be a combat capeable vessel.

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Originally by: RtoZ

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I'm sorry to those who thinks otherwise, but the only way to stomach use of a freighter in hi-sec is afk. It is just too mind numbingly boring to do so otherwise, I don't care what devs advise. By design, if not by intention, hi-sec freighters are afk alt ships. Plain and simple. Good game design should take that into consideration imo.

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Originally by: Jirai Grepher

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Freighters are meant to have an escort. They are transportation ships. they go station to station. that is it. they are unarmed because they do not need nor require to be armed.


Deal with it.

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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NO I HAVE NOT LOST ONE.

Honestly , every ship in game has the ability to try to protect itself except Freighters excluding shuttles . Pods are not a ship.

Give freighters 1-2 lows and 1-2 mids. It atleast gives them some sort of ability to proect themselves..You Devs are always stating changes are for balancing but freighters are not. You added the ability of them to drop loot but not defend themselves??? Where is the balance in that??I have nothing against suicide gankers but lets give a near bill capital ship some defences. I mean ITS A FREAKIN CAPITAL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally by: Tortun Nahme

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and CCP says they are worknig as intended so i guess your argument is invalid too

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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But all of those ships can mount some sprt of DEFENSE..

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Exactly so why does it not have the right to defend itsself?

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Offense and Defense are 2 different things

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Originally by: Alski

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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But all of those ships can mount some sprt of DEFENSE..

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Not allways, haveing been ECMed in my carrier and seen 140+ second locktimes on anouther CAPITAL ship, not to mention smaller stuff, and basicley done nothing but sit around and watch the fight around me while all the ECM ships were picked off by *SUPPORT* i can safley say that if you are one and they are many, you will not have any defence no matter what you fit.

Originally by: Par Bobot

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Exactly so why does it not have the right to defend itsself?

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Because CCP doesent want it to, to promote teamwork and to promote the idea that all ship classes need support from anouther class.

Also because its not a combat ship, and if it had any form of capital class tanking it would be abused by tanking missions and complexs due to the nature of capital repair modules / tanking.

Any ECM would be useless, unless it had lots and lots of mid-slots for it and then it risks becomeing either a weaponless supertank or a combat ship, it should be neither.

Originally by: Par Bobot

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Offense and Defense are 2 different things

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The best offence is a good defence, and vs. multiple targets with supior firepower it can't really be anything but a VERY good defence which instantley also makes it a possable offensive weapon.

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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AHH but you were able to somewhat defend yourself do some point..
They were banned from complexes.
And as the PVP'rs like to say this is a PVP game so a ship unable to mount some sort of DEFENSE is unbalanced!!

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Originally by: Jirai Grepher

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Freighters are meant to have an escort. They are transportation ships. they go station to station. that is it. they are unarmed because they do not need nor require to be armed.


Deal with it.

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Industrials are transportation ships out from day 1 long before Freighters..They have defensive and offensive ability so your point is invalid. And there was nothing sdaid abou arming them.

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Originally by: Alski

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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AHH but you were able to somewhat defend yourself do some point..
They were banned from complexes.
And as the PVP'rs like to say this is a PVP game so a ship unable to mount some sort of DEFENSE is unbalanced!!

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No i wasent, the moment i got a lock on anything after those 140 seconds (which btw is probaley enouth time to kill a freighter as well) it was instantley re-broken by the next ECM cycle.

When i did finaley rejoin the battle in the sence that i could actuley target stuff and designate drone targets, it was because my **SUPPORT** (ie: the other players who had my back) had killed the ships that were preventing me from fighting. (or what would be in a freighters case - escapeing)

Had i been on my own, i'd have been poped and podded quicker than you can say "alski - primary"

Banning only works if someone reports them, some plex's and missions do not have gates to stop them.

But you havent actuley refuted a single point i brought.

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Originally by: Jirai Grepher

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Originally by: Jirai Grepher

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Freighters are meant to have an escort. They are transportation ships. they go station to station. that is it. they are unarmed because they do not need nor require to be armed.


Deal with it.

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Industrials are transportation ships out from day 1 long before Freighters..They have defensive and offensive ability so your point is invalid. And there was nothing sdaid abou arming them.

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Regular industrials do things other than simply go station to station. Freighters go from one station to another. They are ment and were always meant from its inception.

The devs stated this months before you could even fly or look at the ship. Everyone knew what they were intended to do. Name one industrial ship other than a freighter that has its cargo space.


They are station to station transports intended to be Escorted.



lets all say it together again.


Escorted

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Originally by: Jonathos

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Everything you state is invalid. Freighters are made to be escorted obviously, last time I checked mining barges aren't exactly able to defend themselves if attacked by another player. Maybe it's because industry related ships aren't made to survive in combat without help? NO WAI

This post isn't inflammatory enough to be trolling, hence my posting.

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Originally by: DOC PIC

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Ok was your ship able to fit defensive mods?? YES

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Originally by: DOC PIC

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Banned as in the old static complexes were no longer allowed in.

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Originally by: DOC PIC

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Plus you are comparing apples to oranges combat v logistic ship.

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Originally by: Vandalias

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Just to throw an idea out there:

Give freighters a few slots, but cut their base cargo capacity by 50-75%. That way if you want to carry around a ton of stuff you have to devote your slots to cargo expanders. If not you can put up a mediocre tank.

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Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch

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Adding slots to a freighter would be a monumental mistake. The argument I always hear is that they are too weak or they can't defend themselves and having module slots would fix this. If you want them to be tougher, then request them to be tougher. You can't add low slots to a freighter because their cargo capacity has been carefully calculated and having lows would potentially break that limit now or down the road when new modules are released. Low slots would also change the freighter's time to align for warp which is also very carefully implemented. Med slots would give them the potential to serve an offensive role (ECM burst) which makes no sense for that ship class. Hi slots, well what use would a freighter have for hi slots?

Seriously, if you want a ship with modules, fly a different ship. If you believe freighters need an hp boost, argue that point using valid ideas. I'll give you a head start: cheaper t2, overloading / heat, faction ammo, more players in ships that can do more dps, ships coming out that can do more dps, more public info about how to down a freighter, etc.

Give the "give freighters slots" argument a rest.

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Originally by: Vandalias

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Just to throw an idea out there:

Give freighters a few slots, but cut their base cargo capacity by 50-75%. That way if you want to carry around a ton of stuff you have to devote your slots to cargo expanders. If not you can put up a mediocre tank.

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch

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cut

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Sorry but the ship is unbalanced and needs balancing.

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Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch

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cut

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Sorry but the ship is unbalanced and needs balancing.

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What is unbalanced? It is designed to haul stuff. Is it not hauling enough or is it hauling too much?
If you are saying the ship is too weak, then say you want the HP boosted on the freighter.
Adding module slots to a ship that was designed not to have module slots changes the role of the ship. I point you to other hauling ships if you don't like freighters.

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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ITS A FREAKIN CAPITAL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally by: Tortun Nahme

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and you are wrong

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Originally by: Christari Zuborov

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Originally by: Missy Saints

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Edited by: Missy Saints on 24/09/2007 02:10:08

Originally by: Par Bobot

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And again, the ship wasnt intially able to drop loot TILL tons of PVPr's whined about them not dropping loot. Now I say they should be able to defend themselves to some point..

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Originally by: Alski

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Face the truth, they are a billion isk ship, they were designed to be corporate property, they were never meant to be flown alone and unescorted, the solution is the game itself this is an MMO - you are meant to work as a team.

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Originally by: Shiodome

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don't see why frieghter pilots should be the only group to have the way they fly dictated to them if they want to keep their ship?

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Originally by: Shiodome

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Edited by: Shiodome on 24/09/2007 03:59:14
Edited by: Shiodome on 24/09/2007 03:58:47
every other ship the pilot has choice over how they fly, CCP hasn't made any other ship where your option is 'fly with a gang, or have zero defence'. every other ship has bonuses which 'direct' you in the way it's meant to be used (or slot layouts), but at least there's options (it's often very clear which the best option is, but if you want to fit an ewar mammoth, or an armor tanked harpy you have to option.)

don't see why frieghter pilots should be the only group to have the way they fly dictated to them if they want to keep their ship?


EXACTLTY
and as has been pointed out in another frieghter thread recently, it's not possible to protect any significant cargo and still maintain a profit margin (which is after all the whole point for many people moving items in bulk?) - e.g for a 3 bill cargo... the attacker can field over a dozen suicide domi's and still come out ahead... but if the convoy fields enough ships to defend against those domi's all profit margin is lost.

i don't think freighters should be able to uber tank solo, but having 'some' small tank would allow them to survive with a smaller escort and thus maintain some profit margin?

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Originally by: Tortun Nahme

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ups drivers transports

and freight trains, shipping trucks, oceanic freighters, and heavy cargo jets carrying valuables have escorts, even in "safe" countries

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Originally by: Shiodome

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i don't think freighters should be able to uber tank solo, but having 'some' small tank would allow them to survive with a smaller escort and thus maintain some profit margin?

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Originally by: Shiodome

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but if the convoy fields enough ships to defend against those domi's all profit margin is lost.

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Originally by: Vandalias

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Just to throw an idea out there:

Give freighters a few slots, but cut their base cargo capacity by 50-75%. That way if you want to carry around a ton of stuff you have to devote your slots to cargo expanders. If not you can put up a mediocre tank.

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GOOD Trade off.

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Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Originally by: Vandalias

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Just to throw an idea out there:

Give freighters a few slots, but cut their base cargo capacity by 50-75%. That way if you want to carry around a ton of stuff you have to devote your slots to cargo expanders. If not you can put up a mediocre tank.

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GOOD Trade off.

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meh not really... why fit expanders when you can fit warp core stabs.

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Originally by: Alski

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Face the truth, this is an MMO, and CCP wants you to play it as one.

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Originally by: Liz Kali

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Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking

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Originally by: TheDagda

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*click*
For the love of the jovians stops necroing

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Originally by: Kailiani

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While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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NO I HAVE NOT LOST ONE.

Honestly , every ship in game has the ability to try to protect itself except Freighters excluding shuttles . Pods are not a ship.

Give freighters 1-2 lows and 1-2 mids. It atleast gives them some sort of ability to proect themselves..You Devs are always stating changes are for balancing but freighters are not. You added the ability of them to drop loot but not defend themselves??? Where is the balance in that??I have nothing against suicide gankers but lets give a near bill capital ship some defences. I mean ITS A FREAKIN CAPITAL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

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Originally by: Kailiani

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While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.

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Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec It should only take you a couple of hours

Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week
Try to put some perspective on this.

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Originally by: Kailiani

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Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?

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Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

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Originally by: Kailiani

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Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?

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Your math is seriously flawed

If you like, I can give you the number of hours spent tracking targets that were not destroyed, maybe that will clue you up a little.

Like I say, come back when you have ganked a freighter in high sec. Then you can tell me how easy it is.

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Originally by: David Hackworth

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ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.

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Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus

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Edited by: Dred''Pirate Jesus on 24/09/2007 04:56:36
Can't stand how vulnerable your freighter is waiting to align and warp? Have a corp mate/alt web and bump you into warp.. Problem solved.. Thats how your 'escort' helps you..

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Originally by: David Hackworth

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ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.

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Originally by: Kailiani

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Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

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Originally by: Kailiani

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While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.

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Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec It should only take you a couple of hours

Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week
Try to put some perspective on this.

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Sure, here's some perspective based on your numbers. 7 x 24 = 168 / 20 = 8.4 hours per gank.

Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?

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Originally by: Tortun Nahme

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kind of pointless gank, with that many pilots there is NO profit in the gank at all

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Originally by: Alski

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Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:14:46

Originally by: Kailiani

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Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

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Originally by: Kailiani

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While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.

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Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec It should only take you a couple of hours

Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week
Try to put some perspective on this.

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Sure, here's some perspective based on your numbers. 7 x 24 = 168 / 20 = 8.4 hours per gank.

Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?

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You forgot a number in those maths, that is the number of people requred, a Basilisk logistics ship with max skills will add about 284 DPS worth of tanking to a freighter, or two of them for about 570 DPS of indefinate tanking, a domi with a crazy little setup i just made in EFT based on my skills would rep 431 DPS for 2 minute 40 seconds solid, two of them could repair 861 DPS, all DPS numbers are not even factored for the freighters resists

Thats one or 2 ships to keep a 3rd alive, how many domi's does it take to kill a freighter? we are talking man-hours here right?

edit: and yes i know that a freighter gank fleet puts out more damage than those setups can repair, however all the hostiles WILL die, if you extend the life of the freighter by even 30%, its highley likeley that all the hostile ships will die before the freighter go's down, leaveing you with just a heafty repair bill and the gankers seriousley down on isk.

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Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif

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Originally by: Alski

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Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:14:46

Originally by: Kailiani

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Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

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Originally by: Kailiani

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While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.

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Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec It should only take you a couple of hours

Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week
Try to put some perspective on this.

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Sure, here's some perspective based on your numbers. 7 x 24 = 168 / 20 = 8.4 hours per gank.

Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?

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You forgot a number in those maths, that is the number of people requred, a Basilisk logistics ship with max skills will add about 284 DPS worth of tanking to a freighter, or two of them for about 570 DPS of indefinate tanking, a domi with a crazy little setup i just made in EFT based on my skills would rep 431 DPS for 2 minute 40 seconds solid, two of them could repair 861 DPS, all DPS numbers are not even factored for the freighters resists

Thats one or 2 ships to keep a 3rd alive, how many domi's does it take to kill a freighter? we are talking man-hours here right?

edit: and yes i know that a freighter gank fleet puts out more damage than those setups can repair, however all the hostiles WILL die, if you extend the life of the freighter by even 30%, its highley likeley that all the hostile ships will die before the freighter go's down, leaveing you with just a heafty repair bill and the gankers seriousley down on isk.

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HYou also need to remember with a gank squads alpha you will be into structure before you get your first rep off, and as such your actually repped amount will not be as effective. And with rep cycles of 5 + seconds the domi's will have you back down to 0 shield and armor again for the next rep.

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Originally by: Alski

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Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:27:14
Very good point, i forgot freighters have pooy shields.

Domi with 6 armor reps and my skills: 384 DPS, 2 of em would be 768.
8 hostile domi's with my carrier alts skills (highley unlikeley) and no guns fielding ogre I's : 2800 DPS
Freighter tanking time extended by: 36.4% before resists.

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Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif

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Originally by: Alski

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Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:27:14
Very good point, i forgot freighters have pooy shields.

Domi with 6 armor reps and my skills: 384 DPS, 2 of em would be 768.
8 hostile domi's with my carrier alts skills (highley unlikeley) and no guns fielding ogre I's : 2800 DPS
Freighter tanking time extended by: 36.4% before resists.

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With the Current setup scene of about 15 Domis with a Large hitpoint buffer with modest expectation of 746 dps( 6 T1 Neutrons, 5 Ogre IIs, one Mag stab) they'll kill a Charon in about 116-20 seconds. Effective cost of the ships after insurance, 375mil.

Now even with support at the current moment you'll lose the freighter way to fast for logistics to be of any real help, It takes 2 Logistic Domis to cancel a single gank domi. Even with 2 command ships with Shield harmonizing and the armor resist link that I can't think of off they still don't have enough of a buffer in hitpoints to allow logistics to be really effective.

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Originally by: Alski

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Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 05:14:46

Originally by: Kailiani

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Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

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Originally by: Kailiani

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While the gankers only need to spend a few hours settings up and waiting.

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Come back tomorrow when you have ganked a freighter in high sec It should only take you a couple of hours

Hundreds of freighters reach their destination every day, and maybe 20 are ganked in a week
Try to put some perspective on this.

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Sure, here's some perspective based on your numbers. 7 x 24 = 168 / 20 = 8.4 hours per gank.

Now how many hours would you need to have escorts per week, and how many of them?

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You forgot a number in those maths, that is the number of people requred, a Basilisk logistics ship with max skills will add about 284 DPS worth of tanking to a freighter, or two of them for about 570 DPS of indefinate tanking, a domi with a crazy little setup i just made in EFT based on my skills would rep 431 DPS for 2 minute 40 seconds solid, two of them could repair 861 DPS, all DPS numbers are not even factored for the freighters resists

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Quote:

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Thats one or 2 ships to keep a 3rd alive, how many domi's does it take to kill a freighter? we are talking man-hours here right?

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Originally by: Kailiani

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Say freighter goes 2 hours a day for 3 weeks before being ganked. He's always got 2 logistics following him. Thats 84 hours of work for just the 2 logistic ships NOT including the freighter itself.

10 domis to spend 8.4 hours hunting down a freighter = 84 man hours.

10 domi's(75 mill each) before insurance don't even cost as much as the freighter. Let alone any cargo in the freighter thats worth 2+ billion. 50% cargo loss leaves 250+ mill profit BEFORE insurance payouts.

Freighter loses ~3 billion. Rinse&repeat

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Originally by: Alski

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Originally by: Kailiani

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Say freighter goes 2 hours a day for 3 weeks before being ganked. He's always got 2 logistics following him. Thats 84 hours of work for just the 2 logistic ships NOT including the freighter itself.

10 domis to spend 8.4 hours hunting down a freighter = 84 man hours.

10 domi's(75 mill each) before insurance don't even cost as much as the freighter. Let alone any cargo in the freighter thats worth 2+ billion. 50% cargo loss leaves 250+ mill profit BEFORE insurance payouts.

Freighter loses ~3 billion. Rinse&repeat

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The time / manpower required for defence is undoubtabley the best argument for a fix of some kind, allthough i honestley can't see anyone ganking a freighter thats only carreying 2b isk worth of loot, at 50% loss devided by 15 players thats 60m each! that doesent even cover the market price of the ships, let alone insurance or fittings or time, even if it was 4b isk @ 50% loss, might as well run missions tbh.

See the real issue is that people get ganked for putting 10b isk worth of stuff in a freighter and expecting to be safe (if you are correct about 15 ships required, i can't see how anyone would do it for less than 5b) the key here is that for normal day to day hauling, freighter pilots do not need to worrey.
If however they are carreying 10b isk worth of crap, better bring help

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Quote:

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With the Current setup scene of about 15 Domis with a Large hitpoint buffer with modest expectation of 746 dps( 6 T1 Neutrons, 5 Ogre IIs, one Mag stab) they'll kill a Charon in about 16-20 seconds. Effective cost of the ships after insurance, 375mil.

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Originally by: Kailiani

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Quoted from last post on 3rd page.

375 mill for 15 domies after insurance. 66m profit each ;/.

Still if you really dislike someone, or have a corp you dont like you can kill off their freighter at less then half the cost of the freighter.

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Originally by: Shevar

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I agree give freighters defensive options, BUT limit their cargo hold to 30k.

That should fix the whining about OMG I was moving all my items and I got killed in high sec. CCP PLX BUFF CONCORD

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Originally by: David Hackworth

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ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.

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Originally by: Alski

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Edited by: Alski on 24/09/2007 06:38:09

Originally by: Kailiani

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Quoted from last post on 3rd page.

375 mill for 15 domies after insurance. 66m profit each ;/.

Still if you really dislike someone, or have a corp you dont like you can kill off their freighter at less then half the cost of the freighter.

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yeah i'm not entireley getting how you afford platinum insurance, full fitting, and at least 5 ogre II's (probaley with spares) for only 25m... errr... infact plase tell me how because i want one

But in any case, we've drifted off the main argument here, i still stand by the idea that for day-to-day freighter hauling you have little to worrey about, not being AFK and WTZ'ing and getting a corpmate to web you will defeat a majority of ganks anyway, haveing a scout with his scanner open (thanks to Nicoli for the tip about the BS's not being on grid!) would also help, and not hauling everything in one trip is probaley the easyest solo gank avoidence tactic.

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Quote:

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Besides i think there is a gross misconception about how much 15 domis cost after insurance. Just running the numbers out of my memory domi insurance is about 20 mil, ship cost is about 50 mil, and payout about 62 mil. Meaning each domi costs you about 8 mil, add another 5 mil for a basic t1 fitting(guns 200k each, a few plates, t1 eanms, ogres 50k each + whatever) with some ogres I and we get 13 mil. So we have a grand total of 195 mil after insurance. Ofc some stuff will survive and you can salvage the ships if some scavanger isnt faster. So in reality even if you move a single billion worth of stuff and only 500 mil survive its still a profit for them.

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Quote:

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Domi Insurance Value - 18 Mill for 62.5 Mill.

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Originally by: Kailiani from some other random post

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Besides i think there is a gross misconception about how much 15 domis cost after insurance. Just running the numbers out of my memory domi insurance is about 20 mil, ship cost is about 50 mil, and payout about 62 mil. Meaning each domi costs you about 8 mil, add another 5 mil for a basic t1 fitting(guns 200k each, a few plates, t1 eanms, ogres 50k each + whatever) with some ogres I and we get 13 mil. So we have a grand total of 195 mil after insurance. Ofc some stuff will survive and you can salvage the ships if some scavanger isnt faster. So in reality even if you move a single billion worth of stuff and only 500 mil survive its still a profit for them.

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Originally by: Steini OFSI

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The most efficient way to get a dev response is to have the word beer somewhere in your thread.

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Originally by: Missy Saints

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Edited by: Missy Saints on 24/09/2007 02:10:08

Originally by: Marcera

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Quote:

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I mean ITS A FREAKIN CAPITAL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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No it is not, does not need cap skill
SKILL NO, but it useses Capital Components to make and requires Capital Production skill to make.


As for to fix them, there is a thing called have ship defending it

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Not the point.. the bug where freighters didn't drop loot was fixed but nothing to defend itself except a large number of hitpoints = solo ISK printing machine taken away.

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Offense and Defense are 2 different things

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Originally by: Alski

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I move blueprints in my shuttle.
I demand my shuttle gets some slots, some gun mounts, and a target painting bonus

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Originally by: Ogul

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Edited by: Ogul on 24/09/2007 12:03:51
Can you say risk vs. reward?

Suicide gankers face NO risk, therefore they should get NO reward.

Slots on freighters won't help there, though.

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Originally by: Trox Aeze

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The problem is not in freighters, but the drone ships.
Once its destroyed, drones continue to attack their target.
This is the problem, once their controller ship is destroyed, drones should stop.

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1. Drones cease to move/attack when the owner dies
2. Concord now uses ecm on drones

Originally by: Firkragg

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How about instead creating a new ship that can is between industrials and freighters. Maybe give it 20% of the freighters cargo space but also give it a few slots so it can have some tank.

Freighter dont need any kind of boost they do thier job perfectly. Carry lots and lots of cargo. The downside to this is that they are vulnerable and so need support. Its part of the whole risk reward structure.

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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If freighters had slots people wouldn't tank them, they'd fit overdrives/inertials, and the market would be hurt even more by afk traders.

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Originally by: Van Steiza

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Awwwwwww A frieghter is a frieghter they haul **** end of.
Maybe a Hp boost or the abilty to fit ONE dmg control and THAT is it.

But to be quite frigging honest there great the way they are.

Pardon or what ever your name is I hate you I hope I do see you in a frieghter :D

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Edited by: Par Bobot on 24/09/2007 14:31:34

Originally by: 343conspiracy43345

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Originally by: Firkragg

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How about instead creating a new ship that can is between industrials and freighters. Maybe give it 20% of the freighters cargo space but also give it a few slots so it can have some tank.

Freighter dont need any kind of boost they do thier job perfectly. Carry lots and lots of cargo. The downside to this is that they are vulnerable and so need support. Its part of the whole risk reward structure.

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No. There will be no mini freighter BS.

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And you are a Dev??

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Originally by: Aceoil

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Yea right, give the freighter 2 mids and 2 lows.
I'd go fit 2 cargo expander II's and increase my cargo to 1,035,000 m3.
Then I would haul dreadnoughts, and other capital ships into highsec.

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Originally by: Aceoil

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Yea right, give the freighter 2 mids and 2 lows.
I'd go fit 2 cargo expander II's and increase my cargo to 1,035,000 m3.
Then I would haul dreadnoughts, and other capital ships into highsec.

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Originally by: Wendat Huron

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People still fly freighters?

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Originally by: Van Steiza

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Awwwwwww A frieghter is a frieghter they haul **** end of.
Maybe a Hp boost or the abilty to fit ONE dmg control and THAT is it.

But to be quite frigging honest there great the way they are.

Pardon or what ever your name is I hate you I hope I do see you in a frieghter :D

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Originally by: 343conspiracy43345

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I am a player with a brain

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Originally by: RtoZ

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A fenrir could have 7 mids and 7 lows.

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Originally by: Curzon Dax

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*shrugs* Play the game the way you want to, and respect other peoples' ability to do the same.

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Originally by: the'internet is'for'****

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Okay so we want to treat freighters at capital ships right?
So okay, let's treat them as such, give them some fitting slots and BAN them from .5 - 1.0 space..

OH wait.. that would just make you whine more.

Make some friends, have those friends scout for you and escort you.

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Originally by: the'internet is'for'****

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Okay so we want to treat freighters at capital ships right?
So okay, let's treat them as such, give them some fitting slots and BAN them from .5 - 1.0 space..

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Originally by: RtoZ

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Even if a freighter could tank it would need escorts, except in highsec. I mean, when was the last time you saw 3 SUV's full of bodyguards escorting UPS? Or, to put it bluntly:

ESCORTING FREIGHTERS IN HIGH-SECURITY SYSTEMS MAKES NO SENSE AS A GAMEPLAY REQUIREMENT. The fact that they are killable in a profitable way in highsec is a game design mystake, pure and simple.

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Originally by: Draven Bradley

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Originally by: RtoZ

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Even if a freighter could tank it would need escorts, except in highsec. I mean, when was the last time you saw 3 SUV's full of bodyguards escorting UPS? Or, to put it bluntly:

ESCORTING FREIGHTERS IN HIGH-SECURITY SYSTEMS MAKES NO SENSE AS A GAMEPLAY REQUIREMENT. The fact that they are killable in a profitable way in highsec is a game design mystake, pure and simple.

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Actually , if said UPS truck is transporting high valuables it will have security following it. It's an insurance requirement for obvious reasons.
So if it happens in the real world ... why is it such an odd concept to people in Eve?

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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GO fly a freighter 20-25 jumps each way in high sec every other day, and see how many friends tag along after 2 weeks.

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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You dont go in corp chat "hey everyone I'm undocking in my XYZ ship come protect me!!

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Originally by: B1G DAVE

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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You dont go in corp chat "hey everyone I'm undocking in my XYZ ship come protect me!!

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Yes you do, thats the whole point of corps, to help each other out ;)

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Originally by: Solant

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You, sir, are an idiot.

Freighters are not designed to fly solo in any capacity. Get some friends, or gtfo.

End of discussion, this thread is a waste of kilobytes.

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Originally by: Solant

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You, sir, are an idiot.

Freighters are not designed to fly solo in any capacity. Get some friends, or gtfo.

End of discussion, this thread is a waste of kilobytes.

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Originally by: Solant

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You, sir, are an idiot.

Freighters are not designed to fly solo in any capacity. Get some friends, or gtfo.

End of discussion, this thread is a waste of kilobytes.

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lol typical PVP'r response, insults and no constructive input

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Originally by: Alski

Also ONE reason freighters do not and will never have rig or low slots is because if they got any larger cargo bays then capital ships would be capeable of being transported into highsec, and no-one wants that for many reasons. [)

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And before you say "but then reduce the base cargo capacity of the freighters" that would be pointless because then people would just fit cargo rigs and expanders and totaley defeat the point of haveing slots for a tank, not to mention that people would whine like hell about haveing there cargo capacity nurfed.

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Originally by: Zephlin Abath

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Originally by: Solant

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You, sir, are an idiot.

Freighters are not designed to fly solo in any capacity. Get some friends, or gtfo.

End of discussion, this thread is a waste of kilobytes.

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lol typical PVP'r response, insults and no constructive input

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Insults aside, he is right.
CCP would have already spoken up or would have fixed it already if they intended it to be a solo hauler don't you think?

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Originally by: Herring

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Originally by: Alski

Also ONE reason freighters do not and will never have rig or low slots is because if they got any larger cargo bays then capital ships would be capeable of being transported into highsec, and no-one wants that for many reasons. [)

---

And before you say "but then reduce the base cargo capacity of the freighters" that would be pointless because then people would just fit cargo rigs and expanders and totaley defeat the point of haveing slots for a tank, not to mention that people would whine like hell about haveing there cargo capacity nurfed.

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I hear this every time someone talks about lows on a freighter, and it's simply another diversionary tactic. Coding in barriers to capships in order to make them uncarryable in freighters would be easy. There is no good reason for a freighter, a capital ship, should not have some sort of minimal way to protect itself. Something that would make the sort of ganking based on mathematical calculation of damage vs static resists, shield, armor and hull to within +/- 10% a thing of the past.

There is no good reason not to give freighters a lowslot.

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Originally by: Liz Kali

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Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking

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Originally by: TheDagda

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*click*
For the love of the jovians stops necroing

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Originally by: Marcera

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Quote:

---

I mean ITS A FREAKIN CAPITAL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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No it is not, does not need cap skill

As for to fix them, there is a thing called have ship defending it

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Originally by: Ademaro Imre

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Originally by: Marcera

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Quote:

---

I mean ITS A FREAKIN CAPITAL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---

No it is not, does not need cap skill

As for to fix them, there is a thing called have ship defending it

---

Why do Freighter then require the Capital Ship Construction skill to build them? And one of the Freighters require at least 156 Capital Construction Components to build. And a Freighter is not a capital ship?

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Originally by: Admiral Pelleon

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When is the last time you saw a container ship with flak cannons and armor?

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Originally by: Vateh

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It seems like the issue with freighter began when they began to drop loot. This cause the gank squads to begin to take down freighters. Instead of giving freighters slots, or banning them to low security space, the easiest solution seems to reverse the changes that made the freighters targets in the first place by removing the loot dropped by frieghters or just make freighters drop metal scraps and no cargo. This would solve the problem with the lowest amout of impact on the game

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Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

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Love the new need for speed initiative.

Pilots involved in a fleet battle can post on the forum and get a reply about wha

Originally by: Par Bobot

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GO fly a freighter 20-25 jumps each way in high sec every other day, and see how many friends tag along after 2 weeks.

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Originally by: P'uck

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I know somebody who heard somebody say that an Osprey defeated Chuck Norris. Twice. Need I say more?

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Originally by: MasterEnt

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Freighters are made to require support, get some

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Originally by: Adaris

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I don't understand why Freighters don't have drones to defend themselves with/fighters. Surely (in rp terms) given the amount of ganks there have been freighter engineeers see the damn need to include this. Also, why should they not have more effective anti-warp scrambling technology aboard? Its common sense to have them built in. The only thing that should stop them warping off is being bumped (another thing that should be fixed i.e. bumping causes dmg to bumper/some dmg to bumpee) and the new mass addition module.

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Originally by: 343conspiracy43345

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Do you guys not understand the importance of scouts, warp to zero, and logoffski tactics?

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Originally by: Par Bobot

---

Edited by: Par Bobot on 25/09/2007 17:01:56

Originally by: 343conspiracy43345

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Do you guys not understand the importance of scouts, warp to zero, and logoffski tactics?

---

Let me ask, have you ever flown one alt? in 0.0 that helps but still a dread could warp in on you after you jump in and lock you before you get a chance to align for warp.

Scouts?? in high sec whats he gonna do?? "look out boys theres a hauler by the gate , might be a ganker scout" scans you bumps you enough till the gang arrives..

logoofski?? "boys someones in this .9 system log"

Point is ship needs to be balanced by adding slots?? or buffing shields.. FFS my drake has 4x the shields.

Friends cannot agro gankers , unless a war taget in empire, so no help there .

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Originally by: Captian Internet

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Edited by: Par Bobot on 25/09/2007 17:01:56

Originally by: 343conspiracy43345

---

Do you guys not understand the importance of scouts, warp to zero, and logoffski tactics?

---

Let me ask, have you ever flown one alt? in 0.0 that helps but still a dread could warp in on you after you jump in and lock you before you get a chance to align for warp.

Scouts?? in high sec whats he gonna do?? "look out boys theres a hauler by the gate , might be a ganker scout" scans you bumps you enough till the gang arrives..

logoofski?? "boys someones in this .9 system log"

Point is ship needs to be balanced by adding slots?? or buffing shields.. FFS my drake has 4x the shields.

Friends cannot agro gankers , unless a war taget in empire, so no help there .

---

No tank what so ever

also the ancient art of Pre repping eludes you perhaps? but having 1 logistics ship there to pre rep can extend your lifespan to give you those crucial seconds needed for survival

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Originally by: Tassadar Beta

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Edited by: Tassadar Beta on 25/09/2007 20:02:37
Freighters do not need fixing in my opinion, I won't state why because the OP will just blindly say no that what I state actually means they should be boosted.

If you think they need fixing go make a well constructed post in the ideas section of the forum, instead of an unconstructive rant. I read this thread and I was really disappointed .

But I don't think you will make a well constructed post, because you are too busy reading what people post and interpreting it in whatever way you want so it supports your argument. Which in the end will simply turn this thread into a flamefest and no-one will actually listen to you, because you're just whining and not suggesting something balanced/constructive in the correct section of the forums.

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Tortun Nahme

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unless you have forum warrior 4 trained you simply dont have the resists to tank them

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Tassadar Beta

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Edited by: Tassadar Beta on 25/09/2007 20:02:37
Freighters do not need fixing in my opinion, I won't state why because the OP will just blindly say no that what I state actually means they should be boosted.

If you think they need fixing go make a well constructed post in the ideas section of the forum, instead of an unconstructive rant. I read this thread and I was really disappointed .

But I don't think you will make a well constructed post, because you are too busy reading what people post and interpreting it in whatever way you want so it supports your argument. Which in the end will simply turn this thread into a flamefest and no-one will actually listen to you, because you're just whining and not suggesting something balanced/constructive in the correct section of the forums.

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Originally by: Tassadar Beta

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Freighters do not need fixing in my opinion, I won't state why because I don't have a clue and if I had, it would probably prompt a valid arguement in response.

---

Quote:

---

f you think they need fixing go make a well constructed post in the ideas section of the forum, instead of an unconstructive rant. I read this thread and I was really disappointed .

---

Quote:

---

But I don't think you will make a well constructed post, because you are too busy reading what people post and interpreting it in whatever way you want so it supports your argument. Which in the end will simply turn this thread into a flamefest and no-one will actually listen to you, because you're just whining and not suggesting something balanced/constructive in the correct section of the forums.

---

Originally by: Par Bobot

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Originally by: Admiral Pelleon

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When is the last time you saw a container ship with flak cannons and armor?

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OK lets see 1940's Q-ships and liberty ships to name a few .. Tho I wish we could keep RL out of this , this is a game and my post was about an unbalanced ship.

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Originally by: Tortun Nahme

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maybe they were getting ignored because their thread had no merit?

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Liz Kali

---

Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking

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Originally by: TheDagda

---

*click*
For the love of the jovians stops necroing

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Originally by: Tortun Nahme

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Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 25/09/2007 22:01:39
actually yes I do

none of the transportation companies I know even have ARMOR on their trucks or planes

---

Quote:

---

Since CCP are bringing in a (pardon the pun) boatload of new ships with the rev III patch, why not introduce a second tier freighter class? I know this has been mentioned before (can't find the relevant link though ).

Give it T2 resists on armor, a shield HP buff (no resist buff though), a base +2 warp scramble strength (like the blockade runner), 1x lowslot to fit a tank mod (like a DCU II for example), a smaller cargo bay (30% less than the current freighters around) and a drone bay which either fits 3x fighters (or whatever amount of the smaller drone types :) ). Price it at around the carrier/dreadnaught mark and make it only available with cap ships lvl 1. All other freighter stats apply with regards to agility etc.

This ought to make a more survivable freighter for the owner , which can defend itself without offensive onboard weaponry, while still providing a challenge for the gankers (should they wish to engage a freighter with 60% more effective hull HP's ).

Something needs to be done to freighters as they are the only capital class ship that don't require capital skills to fly and have absolutely no means of defence. What i suggested may be one step forward :)

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Originally by: 343conspiracy43345

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No. Freighters must not be changed.

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Edited by: Par Bobot on 25/09/2007 17:01:56

Originally by: 343conspiracy43345

---

Do you guys not understand the importance of scouts, warp to zero, and logoffski tactics?

---

Let me ask, have you ever flown one alt? in 0.0 that helps but still a dread could warp in on you after you jump in and lock you before you get a chance to align for warp.

---

Originally by: Docteur Xentav

---

Originally by: Par Bobot

---

Edited by: Par Bobot on 25/09/2007 17:01:56

Originally by: 343conspiracy43345

---

Do you guys not understand the importance of scouts, warp to zero, and logoffski tactics?

---

Let me ask, have you ever flown one alt? in 0.0 that helps but still a dread could warp in on you after you jump in and lock you before you get a chance to align for warp.

---

No you have one of your support ships (rapier/hugin works best) double web the freighter each jump (I thought every freighter pilot knew this?) it will send the freighter into warp without the need to align. If the Gank squad manages to get a point on before this can be done you have your CS there to boost the freighters tank, and logistics ships to rep.
It works and its a more than fair investment vs 4-5 billion in a freighter's hold.

The balance thats needed is for the possibility for freighter ganks to occur in high sec and for the possibility to defend against them in high sec. The answer is yes to both so in posing the question are freighters/freighter ganking balanced? The answer is yes.

CCP never intended them to be able to flood markets with 0 risk while afk'd 50 jumps.

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Originally by: Oedus Caro

---

To those of you who are fond of saying things like "Get an escort": Who are you kidding? Unless you happen to be in an unusually big and group-oriented corporation, assembling an adequate escort for something as helpless as a freighter is a nigh-impossible task. Furthermore, how does it make sense from a role-playing perspective that a ship as large as a freighter cannot fit even a single module? Yes of course, they're dedicated to shipping cargo and should therefore be relatively weak, but you don't see parcel companies shipping items in tin foil because that arrangment maximizes the amount of transportable volume, do you?

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Originally by: Zephlin Abath

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Originally by: Oedus Caro

---

To those of you who are fond of saying things like "Get an escort": Who are you kidding? Unless you happen to be in an unusually big and group-oriented corporation, assembling an adequate escort for something as helpless as a freighter is a nigh-impossible task. Furthermore, how does it make sense from a role-playing perspective that a ship as large as a freighter cannot fit even a single module? Yes of course, they're dedicated to shipping cargo and should therefore be relatively weak, but you don't see parcel companies shipping items in tin foil because that arrangment maximizes the amount of transportable volume, do you?

---

If your in a corp which lacks people willing to help you then your in the wrong corp.

Or...

Go out in to the wide big galaxy and make some friends who will enjoy the joy ride and guarding the floating cow.

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Originally by: Par Bobot

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Originally by: Captian Internet

---

Originally by: Par Bobot

---

Edited by: Par Bobot on 25/09/2007 17:01:56

Originally by: 343conspiracy43345

---

Do you guys not understand the importance of scouts, warp to zero, and logoffski tactics?

---

Let me ask, have you ever flown one alt? in 0.0 that helps but still a dread could warp in on you after you jump in and lock you before you get a chance to align for warp.

Scouts?? in high sec whats he gonna do?? "look out boys theres a hauler by the gate , might be a ganker scout" scans you bumps you enough till the gang arrives..

logoofski?? "boys someones in this .9 system log"

Point is ship needs to be balanced by adding slots?? or buffing shields.. FFS my drake has 4x the shields.

Friends cannot agro gankers , unless a war taget in empire, so no help there .

---

No tank what so ever

also the ancient art of Pre repping eludes you perhaps? but having 1 logistics ship there to pre rep can extend your lifespan to give you those crucial seconds needed for survival

---

Sorry but not all production corps have several highly skilled command pilots if any at all..

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Originally by: Par Bobot

---

Originally by: Solant

---

You, sir, are an idiot.

Freighters are not designed to fly solo in any capacity. Get some friends, or gtfo.

End of discussion, this thread is a waste of kilobytes.

---

lol typical PVP'r response, insults and no constructive input

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Originally by: Allestin Villimar

---

You have virtually no chance of saving a freighter from a gate camp, high sec, low sec, or null sec unless you have 3x as many ships as the enemy does. Even then, you'd need to have them all jump in and target the freighter and let loose with armor/shield reppers within the first 10 seconds or it's a lost cause. It's nearly impossible and requires more resources than it should. Giving freighters all around 75% resists instead of just 2 would probably fix the problem.

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Originally by: Teasel

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The T2 hauler classes (blockade runner and deepspace transport) are the ships to shift the premium goods in, that's what they are there for. POS mods, Bs' and craploads of veld are really what freighters are about moving .

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Originally by: isca

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Edited by: isca on 26/09/2007 11:28:50
Edited by: isca on 26/09/2007 11:27:33

sry, they need escorts, CCP never wanted to introduce them in the first place, they ain't going to add slots for reasons already mentioned

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