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Jirai Grepher
Creative Destruction EternalRising
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:15:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Par Bobot
Originally by: Jirai Grepher Freighters are meant to have an escort. They are transportation ships. they go station to station. that is it. they are unarmed because they do not need nor require to be armed.
Deal with it.
Industrials are transportation ships out from day 1 long before Freighters..They have defensive and offensive ability so your point is invalid. And there was nothing sdaid abou arming them.
Regular industrials do things other than simply go station to station. Freighters go from one station to another. They are ment and were always meant from its inception.
The devs stated this months before you could even fly or look at the ship. Everyone knew what they were intended to do. Name one industrial ship other than a freighter that has its cargo space.
They are station to station transports intended to be Escorted.
lets all say it together again.
Escorted
The former and original Pel Mel All posts made reflect my opinion and not that of my corp/alliance. |
DOC PIC
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:17:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Alski
Originally by: Par Bobot
AHH but you were able to somewhat defend yourself do some point.. They were banned from complexes. And as the PVP'rs like to say this is a PVP game so a ship unable to mount some sort of DEFENSE is unbalanced!!
No i wasent, the moment i got a lock on anything after those 140 seconds (which btw is probaley enouth time to kill a freighter as well) it was instantley re-broken by the next ECM cycle.
When i did finaley rejoin the battle in the sence that i could actuley target stuff and designate drone targets, it was because my **SUPPORT** (ie: the other players who had my back) had killed the ships that were preventing me from fighting. (or what would be in a freighters case - escapeing)
Had i been on my own, i'd have been poped and podded quicker than you can say "alski - primary"
Banning only works if someone reports them, some plex's and missions do not have gates to stop them.
But you havent actuley refuted a single point i brought.
Ok was your ship able to fit defensive mods?? YES Banned as in the old static complexes were no longer allowed in. Plus you are comparing apples to oranges combat v logistic ship.
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DOC PIC
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:20:00 -
[33]
Edited by: DOC PIC on 24/09/2007 03:20:32
Originally by: Jirai Grepher
Originally by: Par Bobot
Originally by: Jirai Grepher Freighters are meant to have an escort. They are transportation ships. they go station to station. that is it. they are unarmed because they do not need nor require to be armed.
Deal with it.
Industrials are transportation ships out from day 1 long before Freighters..They have defensive and offensive ability so your point is invalid. And there was nothing sdaid abou arming them.
Regular industrials do things other than simply go station to station. Freighters go from one station to another. They are ment and were always meant from its inception.
The devs stated this months before you could even fly or look at the ship. Everyone knew what they were intended to do. Name one industrial ship other than a freighter that has its cargo space.
They are station to station transports intended to be Escorted.
lets all say it together again.
Escorted
Thats why they can now dock ata POS and Launch Structures?? These abilities were added cause they were needed.
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Vandalias
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:22:00 -
[34]
Just to throw an idea out there:
Give freighters a few slots, but cut their base cargo capacity by 50-75%. That way if you want to carry around a ton of stuff you have to devote your slots to cargo expanders. If not you can put up a mediocre tank.
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DOC PIC
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:23:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jonathos Everything you state is invalid. Freighters are made to be escorted obviously, last time I checked mining barges aren't exactly able to defend themselves if attacked by another player. Maybe it's because industry related ships aren't made to survive in combat without help? NO WAI
This post isn't inflammatory enough to be trolling, hence my posting.
no clue huh? hulks, blockade runners??
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:24:00 -
[36]
Originally by: DOC PIC
Ok was your ship able to fit defensive mods?? YES
It could tank yes, that hardley counts as a defence when you are out-numbered 100:1 though does it? freighter ganking is the same, you are alone, you are out-numbered, it does not matter what you fit becuase you are alone and because of that you are going to die and there is nothing you can do about it, it is down to OTHER PEOPLE to defend you.
Originally by: DOC PIC
Banned as in the old static complexes were no longer allowed in.
Doesent matter, they still exist within the exploration system and the new encounter system as well as some of the expanding paths do not have accel gates.
Originally by: DOC PIC
Plus you are comparing apples to oranges combat v logistic ship.
Thats funny, before the hitpoint boost people used to call carriers logistic ships as well If anything that is the point, mine is a combat ship, its ment to tank, its ment to fight, a freighter is not. -
(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom. |
Par Bobot
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:27:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Vandalias Just to throw an idea out there:
Give freighters a few slots, but cut their base cargo capacity by 50-75%. That way if you want to carry around a ton of stuff you have to devote your slots to cargo expanders. If not you can put up a mediocre tank.
GOOD Trade off.
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Slate Fistcrunch
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:28:00 -
[38]
Adding slots to a freighter would be a monumental mistake. The argument I always hear is that they are too weak or they can't defend themselves and having module slots would fix this. If you want them to be tougher, then request them to be tougher. You can't add low slots to a freighter because their cargo capacity has been carefully calculated and having lows would potentially break that limit now or down the road when new modules are released. Low slots would also change the freighter's time to align for warp which is also very carefully implemented. Med slots would give them the potential to serve an offensive role (ECM burst) which makes no sense for that ship class. Hi slots, well what use would a freighter have for hi slots?
Seriously, if you want a ship with modules, fly a different ship. If you believe freighters need an hp boost, argue that point using valid ideas. I'll give you a head start: cheaper t2, overloading / heat, faction ammo, more players in ships that can do more dps, ships coming out that can do more dps, more public info about how to down a freighter, etc.
Give the "give freighters slots" argument a rest.
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Par Bobot
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:32:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch Adding slots to a freighter would be a monumental mistake. The argument I always hear is that they are too weak or they can't defend themselves and having module slots would fix this. If you want them to be tougher, then request them to be tougher. You can't add low slots to a freighter because their cargo capacity has been carefully calculated and having lows would potentially break that limit now or down the road when new modules are released. Low slots would also change the freighter's time to align for warp which is also very carefully implemented. Med slots would give them the potential to serve an offensive role (ECM burst) which makes no sense for that ship class. Hi slots, well what use would a freighter have for hi slots?
Seriously, if you want a ship with modules, fly a different ship. If you believe freighters need an hp boost, argue that point using valid ideas. I'll give you a head start: cheaper t2, overloading / heat, faction ammo, more players in ships that can do more dps, ships coming out that can do more dps, more public info about how to down a freighter, etc.
Give the "give freighters slots" argument a rest.
Sorry but the ship is unbalanced and needs balancing.
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:35:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Vandalias Just to throw an idea out there:
Give freighters a few slots, but cut their base cargo capacity by 50-75%. That way if you want to carry around a ton of stuff you have to devote your slots to cargo expanders. If not you can put up a mediocre tank.
whats a tank going to do? you either going to tank at the very least 650 DPS (which is totaley overpowered) useing capial armor repair modules or about 100-150 DPS with a LAR, or mabey 200 DPS with a X-L shield booster, which is practiey nothing given the fact you are going to be outnumbered and faceing an horrific amount of DPS.
- That would make them cost more to gank (because it would take slightley longer) - That would give you an extra minute at most of surviveablity, dureing which you will not be receiveing help from anyone because you won't consider that an option
Frighters allready have 2 defences. 1 is teamwork. 2 is not hauling so much that you are profitable to kill.
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(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom. |
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Slate Fistcrunch
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:38:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Par Bobot
Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch cut
Sorry but the ship is unbalanced and needs balancing.
What is unbalanced? It is designed to haul stuff. Is it not hauling enough or is it hauling too much? If you are saying the ship is too weak, then say you want the HP boosted on the freighter. Adding module slots to a ship that was designed not to have module slots changes the role of the ship. I point you to other hauling ships if you don't like freighters.
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Par Bobot
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:45:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch
Originally by: Par Bobot
Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch cut
Sorry but the ship is unbalanced and needs balancing.
What is unbalanced? It is designed to haul stuff. Is it not hauling enough or is it hauling too much? If you are saying the ship is too weak, then say you want the HP boosted on the freighter. Adding module slots to a ship that was designed not to have module slots changes the role of the ship. I point you to other hauling ships if you don't like freighters.
And again, the ship wasnt intially able to drop loot TILL tons of PVPr's whined about them not dropping loot. Now I say they should be able to defend themselves to some point..
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:45:00 -
[43]
and you are wrong
1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo. |
Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:47:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Par Bobot ITS A FREAKIN CAPITAL SHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then make them low sec only...like all other cap ships
You guys really need to learn how to communicate in game, maybe organise an escort and protect you fatt ass freighters, instead of coming here whining hoping CCP will hold your hand while you fly around in high sec solo.
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
Par Bobot
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:47:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Par Bobot on 24/09/2007 03:50:02
Originally by: Tortun Nahme and you are wrong
Proof!! Originally by: Christari Zuborov
Originally by: Missy Saints Edited by: Missy Saints on 24/09/2007 02:10:08
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:50:00 -
[46]
1: they already have it 2: they preform a specific role, at which they are the only ship capable 3: any slot at all would overpower them
seriously, you are either a really poor troll or really good at being a moron
1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo. |
Podee
Something Squishy
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:52:00 -
[47]
my post about nothing has more replies than this one.
freighters are fine.
I'm in ur threadz, derailin ur postz. |
Slate Fistcrunch
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:53:00 -
[48]
The ship did drop loot for a bit but they had to stop that because tons of shuttles ejecting from a freighter causes certain problems to the server. They BOOSTED freighters so that they could do cargo operations in space and that made it viable to have a way to loot from freighters without killing the node.
You say "they should be able to defend themselves." I don't get you. Do you think they should be killing other ships? Do you think they should have active tanks?
My point, and my only point, is that adding modules to freighters breaks the design and class of that ship. If you think they should be able to last longer under fire, ask for more HP. If you think they should be able to sustain a tank, ask for a lower shield recharge time with greater shield amount. If you want to change a ship, you need to think how to fix it without breaking it. Module slots on a freighter would break that ship.
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Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:53:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Par Bobot
And again, the ship wasnt intially able to drop loot TILL tons of PVPr's whined about them not dropping loot. Now I say they should be able to defend themselves to some point..
If you can come up with a defensive system that:
-does not allow them to tank in any form whatsoever because it is an option of either being able to tank so much DPS that they risk unballanceing certain PVE systems, or tank so little as to be completeley ineffectual
-does not allow them to be cargo expanded so they can fly capitals into empire
-does not nurf there cargo so evryone whines about them being smaller
-does have defences that are strong enouth to acyuley be of any use without haveing such a strong defensive capability that said defences can also be used offensiveley
Then i'd love to hear it, the problem is its not possable.
Face the truth, they are a billion isk ship, they were designed to be corperate property, they were never ment to be flown alone and unescorted, the solution is the game itself this is an MMO - you are ment to work as a team. -
(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom. |
RtoZ
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:56:00 -
[50]
You can add slots and limit fittings, everything is a database after all, which is what I stated in my original post.
As per my suggestions nothing would change about freighters except their highsec security, which would be higher, and the time it takes to kill them in lowsec, which imo is positive as it gives them a fighting chance of survival instead of a player being punished with an hour of boredom and then a quick death.
Even if a freighter could tank it would need escorts, except in highsec. I mean, when was the last time you saw 3 SUV's full of bodyguards escorting UPS? Or, to put it bluntly:
ESCORTING FREIGHTERS IN HIGH-SECURITY SYSTEMS MAKES NO SENSE AS A GAMEPLAY REQUIREMENT. The fact that they are killable in a profitable way in highsec is a game design mystake, pure and simple.
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Shiodome
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:56:00 -
[51]
every other ship the pilot has choice over how they fly, CCP hasn't made any other ship where your option is 'fly with a gang, or have zero defence'. every other ship has bonuses which 'direct' you in the way it's meant to be used (or slot layouts), but at least there's options (it's often very clear which the best option is, but if you want to fit an ewar mammoth, or an armor tanked harpy you have to option.)
don't see why frieghter pilots should be the only group to have the way they fly dictated to them if they want to keep their ship?
and as has been pointed out in another frieghter thread recently, it's not possible to protect any significant cargo and still maintain a profit margin (which is after all the whole point for many people moving items in bulk?) - e.g for a 3 bill cargo... the attacker can field over a dozen suicide domi's and still come out ahead... but if the convoy fields enough ships to defend against those domi's all profit margin is lost.
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Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:57:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 24/09/2007 04:00:15
Originally by: Alski
Face the truth, they are a billion isk ship, they were designed to be corporate property, they were never meant to be flown alone and unescorted, the solution is the game itself this is an MMO - you are meant to work as a team.
^^ This
Originally by: Shiodome
don't see why frieghter pilots should be the only group to have the way they fly dictated to them if they want to keep their ship?
Something to do with its ridiculously huge cargo bay perhaps If you want to tank and haul, fly a T2 hauler. The option is there for you
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:58:00 -
[53]
ups drivers transports
and freight trains, shipping trucks, oceanic freighters, and heavy cargo jets carrying valuables have escorts, even in "safe" countries
1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo. |
Par Bobot
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:01:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Par Bobot on 24/09/2007 04:01:51
Originally by: Shiodome Edited by: Shiodome on 24/09/2007 03:59:14 Edited by: Shiodome on 24/09/2007 03:58:47 every other ship the pilot has choice over how they fly, CCP hasn't made any other ship where your option is 'fly with a gang, or have zero defence'. every other ship has bonuses which 'direct' you in the way it's meant to be used (or slot layouts), but at least there's options (it's often very clear which the best option is, but if you want to fit an ewar mammoth, or an armor tanked harpy you have to option.)
don't see why frieghter pilots should be the only group to have the way they fly dictated to them if they want to keep their ship?
EXACTLTY and as has been pointed out in another frieghter thread recently, it's not possible to protect any significant cargo and still maintain a profit margin (which is after all the whole point for many people moving items in bulk?) - e.g for a 3 bill cargo... the attacker can field over a dozen suicide domi's and still come out ahead... but if the convoy fields enough ships to defend against those domi's all profit margin is lost.
i don't think freighters should be able to uber tank solo, but having 'some' small tank would allow them to survive with a smaller escort and thus maintain some profit margin?
EXACTLY
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Par Bobot
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:04:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme ups drivers transports
and freight trains, shipping trucks, oceanic freighters, and heavy cargo jets carrying valuables have escorts, even in "safe" countries
LOL when was the last time you saw that.. thats why piracy lives today..trucks are stolen, planes are hijacked etc..
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Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:05:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Shiodome
i don't think freighters should be able to uber tank solo, but having 'some' small tank would allow them to survive with a smaller escort and thus maintain some profit margin?
What are you talking about? You don't think the enormous structure HP is enough?
If someone is going to chew through that (and yes I have on many occasion ) do you really think that an active tank will help?
If a freighter is caught and scrambled, you can expect about 3000 dps to be placed upon it.
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:07:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Shiodome but if the convoy fields enough ships to defend against those domi's all profit margin is lost.
Really, cos a few months ago when i joined this there was about 40b isk worth in them and i don't remember getting payed.
Wasent even my alliance, bareley knew the people i was flying with at the time. -
(combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom. |
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:12:00 -
[58]
People still fly freighters?
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Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:15:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Par Bobot
Originally by: Vandalias Just to throw an idea out there:
Give freighters a few slots, but cut their base cargo capacity by 50-75%. That way if you want to carry around a ton of stuff you have to devote your slots to cargo expanders. If not you can put up a mediocre tank.
GOOD Trade off.
meh not really... why fit expanders when you can fit warp core stabs.
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Kailiani
Fracked Up beyond All Recognition
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Posted - 2007.09.24 04:16:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Kailiani on 24/09/2007 04:16:59
Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus
Originally by: Par Bobot
Originally by: Vandalias Just to throw an idea out there:
Give freighters a few slots, but cut their base cargo capacity by 50-75%. That way if you want to carry around a ton of stuff you have to devote your slots to cargo expanders. If not you can put up a mediocre tank.
GOOD Trade off.
meh not really... why fit expanders when you can fit warp core stabs.
why fit stabs when you can fight expanders ??!11
Edit: fit expanders, dont wanna fight them things
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