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Darth Kidd
Path of Light R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.09.30 03:09:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Neslo Hey all! Hiya from Neslo!!!
...cont...
hey neslo
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Darth Kidd
Path of Light R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.09.30 03:14:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Neslo
Originally by: Original Species Since its been over a year, maybe MC can now spill the beans on who funded their war against TBB...
Yeah I'd love to know. Just for posterity more than anything else. Given that MC stated that their goal was to destroy the Ship yard tho.... I'd imagine that it probably was a member of the BoB directorate that funded the project. Just my tinfoil hat theory tho.
:-)
Nes
Alot of ship production corps/alliances couldn't compete w/ NEGA on the T2 ship building...comes as no surprise that a manufactoring corp/alliance hired merc's to evict NEGA from IPS.
The 50 POS large POS towers in 8mg and bwf is quite amazing. The production from moon mining there was pretty sweet.
I think, at the time most people loved NEGA for the prices of the T2 ships/mods. heck I loved it.
-dk
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Darth Kidd
Path of Light R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.09.30 03:16:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Cadela Fria Actually speaking of LIH and Jirad Tisalver...Sabre A made me aware the other day that, that character is now in FRICK/MC (to which I responded on TS "WTF?? RLY?? O_o7), but it has "Under new management" in it's bio, so I guess good ol' Jirad either bought a new character, or finally quit EVE.
I hope the latter isn't the case, cause despite being an obnoxious loudmouth, he was a good guy and good at what he did!
Much respect LIH <3.
I haven't seen jirad on in months/year.
He is a really good FC, I admire his skills as a leader.
And lots of fun to poke at when hes drunk. (p.s. I no longer have the sound file...I am sure 1 of u'all have it)
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Royaldo
Gallente KVA Noble Inc. Institute of Cooperative Education
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Posted - 2007.09.30 03:30:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Pesadel0
Originally by: Cringeley I was one of the first goons to go up and scout around The Blue Pill when LIH asked us to help them with a defence op back in...early 2006? It wasn't against the MC, might have been alektorophobia? That was good times, first time I felt directly involved in galactic politics. Bring back Big Blue, I say. They were a decent bunch and didn't deserve to be killed by that ***** Seleene and his puppetmasters.
BB was dead because basically they were "too peaceful" like ISS and the CFS(i dont remember correctly),that kind of alliances are doomed from the beginning 0.0 is for fighting,its is like the old japan full of daimyos and samurais and peaseants ,BB werent aggressive enough so they got wiped out ,i call that evolution.
1 cva 2 iac 3 both nrds
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Sacha Petrova
Mothers of EVE
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Posted - 2007.09.30 15:54:00 -
[95]
I never post on the forums, but I get a kick out of seeing so many people in BLUE I used to talk to on a daily basis. I miss you guys!
I'm not sure if this is an attempt at a revival or a thread to reminisce, but I will entertain both.
I didn't even know about BLUE when I joined E-Uni. They had just joined. I (stupidly?) told Morning Maniac I was interested in diplomacy, but I don't think I realized the gravity of that choice considering the way BLUE worked. Poor Elroy...I didn't understand him hardly at all in the beginning.
BLUE was the the best and worst time I ever had in Eve. I learned and experienced a lot during that time. LiH were a great bunch of guys, especially Jirad, who was a great FC AND helped me with algebra. E-Uni had great instructors and the guys from RNFLM were fantastic too. My job was stressful, but the people made it worthwhile. I might still have that recording of drunken Jirad. I laughed so hard I cried.
The stress in maintaining BLUE is what makes me want to encourage people to seriously think about what it involves. BLUE was unusual in its passivity; I'm sure many LiH guys became really irritated at me constantly telling them not to shoot the neutrals. BLUE with a NBSI policy is not BLUE, just another 0.0 alliance. The challenge is to do something different. We tried it and we failed, but it was fun for many people while it lasted. I invite anyone to try, but don't even think about it unless you're really willing to take it on. Else, you'll get burned out like some of us. BLUE was like another office job to me and most of my time was spent in my email inbox. It was our choice, but for me, it was worth it.
Anyway, I'm sure you can now see why I don't post. I tend to ramble. Good to see everyone again.
Hugs & Kisses Sacha P. |
Moe Tard
The Big Blue
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Posted - 2007.09.30 17:45:00 -
[96]
As said, I'll try to address some of the comments, to the best of my knowledge.
Originally by: Manas
Main problems with BLUE were: - Lack of a generous reimbursement program for PvPers
The defense replacement program was a mess indeed, and certainly not up the task. That's one of those things I was referring to earlier, that didn't get prepped for properly before release, and we never managed to catch up during the live satge of the BLUE project, 50% due to lack of tools, 50% due to staffing issues on the job.
About it not being 'generous' enough, BLUE was never meant to be a sugar daddy for clueless pilots with suicidal tendancies.
Originally by: Manas
- BLUE was too pure on the NRDS stance wrt to strangers. Having a NBSI policy at home (but with easy to get Blue standings) and a NRDS policy outside home would have been workable.
Thanks to Sacha for addressing the "Yes BLUE with NBSI would work, I tell you !" thing, I really can't be arsed answering that sort of drivel one more time.
Originally by: Manas Alliance leadership (NAGA) heavily Empire based and too removed from rank-and-file (sorry Moe).
All of the executive command of BLUE did live in IPS for the entire duration of the project, some were on location several months before it went public, and all of them involved in the nitty gritty of fueling POSes, running logistics/prod, and flying in combat, on top of management and politics/trade/diplo.
Had NAGA been revenue not been empire based, BLUE would not have been possible, considering it was by design a non-profit project, and, in fact, a ISK sink beyond your wildest imagination.
The alliance leadership wasn't staffed only by NAGA (far from it) - and the fact you can blissfully ignore that, Manas, only points at how little free time BLUE leadership had on their hands to pose for photo ops.
Originally by: Ikki Phoenix A bit of topic. if I understand correctly what TBB was about it seems Retribution(http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=603345) and Giant Space Amoeba(based on their alliance profile) are mostly doing what TBB was doing.Correct?
From what I can read there, both Retribution and Giant Space Amoeba are focusing on anti-piracy over a broad area of space (the whole map, even, in the former case) - this wasn't part of BLUE agenda.
Piracy is part of the game, and in BLUE's eye was one of the aspects of PvP that contribute to making EVE fun and interesting. BLUE prohibited piracy in its space, fully expecting pirates wouldn't go out of their way to support this policy. Also BLUE space was intentionally limited to one constellation, due to its unique (?) DMZ rule in EVE, which was realistically enforceable only with the support of majority of guests, and called for the DMZ to be reasonably small.
See my next post for details about NBSI/NRDS/DMZ. ----
Crazy janitor mumbling to himself in an empty building. |
Major Dim
Caldari RUS HOLDING
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Posted - 2007.09.30 17:49:00 -
[97]
Salute to all former TBB guys ))) i still have a tear runnig down when thinking about yuo )). Love u all.
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Moe Tard
The Big Blue
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Posted - 2007.09.30 17:55:00 -
[98]
To expand a bit on the notion of easy-on-standings-NBSI vs NRDS for those who lack experience with those two stances, those are fundamentally different from an ethics/politics perspective.
Easy-standings-NBSI means people get ganked without warning for jumping into your space, and is akin to mugging foreign travellers at your borders and kicking them out naked and with sore bossoms unless they have a visa. It's practical for a 'friendly and welcoming' sovereign alliance under four provisions:- 1 - you have enough administrative staff to handle all the visa requests and proces them in a timeframe fitting of the subjective faster time in EVE, or you fail ;
- 2 - you have the out-of game tools to efficiently keep track of who's who, which BLUE didn't have at the time ;
- 3 - you have the in game means to efficiently adjust standings, which weren't there and still aren't available on TQ to this day.
- 4a - your target userbase is well travelled and experienced enough to know about the need for a visa to get through your borders - BLUE was largely aimed at new players, and this is a great way to start off the wrong foot to gank new players on first date.
NRDS (Not Red Don't Shoot) is what BLUE went by, except when on a heavy warfoot (which was about 50% of the live time of the project) and pretty much guarantees you don't shoot innocent passerbys. Unfortunately it also guarantees you don't set troublemakers red (ie KOS) before they kill someone in your space, which is a mixed blessing to put it mildly.
In addition to provisions 1, 2 and 3 from 'friendly NBSI' above, NRDS requires the following conditions are met :- 4b - you are able to inform the general public and prospective guests/passerbys in advance so they don't assume you operate NBSI and engage your pilots and guests needlessly (hard to quantify how successful BLUE was at that, but it naturally improved after the initial phase of informing regulars in Geminate) ;
- 5 - you have defense forces able to react quickly and efficiently to suppress the threat provided by until-then neutrals starting to behave hostile. (BLUE Peacemakers took an impressive shot at an arguably impossible job) ;
In the case of BLUE, things were even trickier, as BLUE space was operated under a DMZ rule, meaning PvP (beyond sparring at safespots and self defence) was considered a direct violation of BLUE's sovereignty. When we asked from our guests to refrain from shooting their own reds and war targets while in BLUE space, NRDS was the less they could expect from BLUE pilots.
I believe nobody in EVE ever managed to do that before BLUE, and we were at least marginally succesful at the best of times, thanks to the fantastic help we enjoyed from many of our guests and neighbors in supporting this radical policy.
Less extreme rulesets are much easier to enforce, no doubt, and in fact some 'welcoming' alliances are currently still alive and kickin' on TQ. Those are more viable options than BLUE was, simply largely different from what BLUE once was, and exactly why I stated in my first post here: it is not a good idea to try an do a BLUE-Reloaded thing. ...unless you fully accept it may not live long (which we did from the start). ----
Crazy janitor mumbling to himself in an empty building. |
Madscotsman
Gallente E'Ruthaer Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.10.03 14:56:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Madscotsman on 03/10/2007 14:58:17 At first I thought this was a necro thread
Good to see so many familiar names. Hey \o to Nes, Tangerine, Palli, RW, DK and all the others.
As stated earlier, for all the snash BE get from most people, I gained a lot of respect for their skill when they came to help when the MC came to visit.
I would love to see LIH reform and be the corp it once was. Those were good times. (forum whoring and Jirads leather pants ) *tear* *sniffle*
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Manas
The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.03 16:00:00 -
[100]
Hey Moe, I'm on your side, but BLUE had some structural problems. I started my corp immediately after BLUE in frustration in order to "do it right".
About "BLUE was never meant to be a sugar daddy for clueless pilots with suicidal tendancies": Industrialists often make this mistake. Be the Sugar Daddy. Generous PvP policies work and be sustainable via taxes, etc..
Mixed NBSI/NDRS policies can be a workable compromise and can be simplifying. BLUE's "pure" NDRS was in practice quite complicated, and often ended up with more dead neutrals from pirates than innocents saved, and frustrated PvPers.
The other issues.. convo me if interested. I agree that BLUE II shouldn't be started. T2 BLUE maybe..
TGRAD info |
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Khatred
Fluffy Mungoose Guinea Pigs
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Posted - 2007.10.04 01:43:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Khatred was the employer as I recall.
Crossed my mind but I didn't dislike them that much . I do have an idea however because I was asked if I want to buy the station
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Bruno Bonner
Gallente Lutin Group
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Posted - 2007.10.04 02:38:00 -
[102]
Just wanted to chime in, ahh the good times...i still remember Keirin's Hanzo funny voice over teamspeak and everyone making fun of my carebearism.
/me waves to all former [BLUE] members ------ aka BinderAJ |
Torrence Osti
A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.10.04 03:09:00 -
[103]
Being part of Big Blue as a member of NEMP was a lot of fun, it's too bad it didn't last. :(
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Paula Trevaline
Amarr Asguard Security Service Angels Of Discord
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Posted - 2007.10.08 00:05:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Neslo Hey all! Hiya from Neslo!!!
Alright a little back story of the LIH adventures (as far as I can bring it). I'll be updating the Geminate wiki (awsome idea btw). What happened to the Four Horsemen in the BB? Well first and for most... burn out. We were focused on being the "pvp style" teaching in a learning alliance, while providing some basic security in the alliance... think player created concord. We had the SP and the will for about 7 months. Sadly as most pvpers will attest... PVPers on a leash is paramount to trying to heard cats in a field of trees. It's just impossible.
We came in with a corp chat strong during the US timezone of about 40 strong. We would have a Euroforce of about 20. It was a pretty healthy corp. We came into akora / bwf and helped evict FoE out of the area in november. It was a PVPing dream. Help setup an empire. We did it. We even took on the monumentous task of helping emergency deploy the Blue Pill on information that the MC force would not make it in time. (No fault of their own... and btw the threat never materialized)... With the Pill deployed we were finally "home based" out of the pill. The pill was deployed around Newyears of 2006. It was again a great acheivement in the LIH history.
BEGIN THE LONG ROAD
Yep... the long road to maintain the alliance security... and then we tried to do too much and too little. We identified an excellent way to fund a PVP force of our size (to defend) while still opening up the Pill to the public ( a shared vision with naga) we (LIH) would run primary contracts for materials of tech 2 moon mining for the alliance... thus financing our losses / fleet building.
So we had financing, and we knew that being in geminate that someone would want to greif (but never imagined they would want to live here... cuz we specifically picked IPS because the forums called it the HELL HOLE OF EVE)... we simply wanted to make a rose in the desert.
From the time that the pill was constructed (not a single weekend) we were war decc'ed and the alliance was constantly under seige by the wanna-be-pirate group of the week. LIH didn't mind it too much as it provided with entertainment... and the groups were of the same calibar and skill for the most part as our alliance (some n00bs mixed with experienced)...
Then came burn eden. Talk trash if you must, but they were the best danged PVPers in the game using the most of game mechanics. It taught LIH's most experienced PVPers some valuable tips of how to fight experienced PVP tactics. We killed them some, they mostly killed us and our residents. After 3 weeks of Burn Eden... and yes it gets old... LIH implemented the now infamous "Lockdown" procedures. We took on Royal Navy in our fight (as we had already hemeraged 25% of our PVP force to the "i don't want to protect neutrals for 14.95 a month syndrome" even though we wanted to portray the RP stance of Lawful Good), they didn't want to merge, so we helped convince folks to get them into the alliance. It was a good choice, cuz they were great allies (even up to LIH departure).
In a purely LIH funded event, on April 1, we deployed 8mg MASADA station. It was the most intense experience ever, as the infamous BOB easter egg killing roaming fleets almost blew up 2 months of saving of industrialists and a siginficant aount of ISK from Talon and myself. When it deployed, it was the pinnacle of the LIH experience.
THE DOWN HILL SPIRAL
With 8mg, we restricted it to all BB. We wanted to develop a cap yard for NAGA production in BWF and a cap yard for BB in 8mg. However, we had one director running the Industrial side of LIH. With the deployment of the Station, he became a hot item for recruitment with his management skills and awsome logistic thinking mind.... BOB got him (hi Hectic! o/)
...cont...
Heya nes.
Call on me if you're putting LIH back together in it's pre-TBB form. I can dig up Hal and some more, also.
Convo ya in game sometime.
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Paula Trevaline
Amarr Asguard Security Service Angels Of Discord
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Posted - 2007.10.08 00:08:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Neslo
Originally by: Original Species Since its been over a year, maybe MC can now spill the beans on who funded their war against TBB...
Yeah I'd love to know. Just for posterity more than anything else. Given that MC stated that their goal was to destroy the Ship yard tho.... I'd imagine that it probably was a member of the BoB directorate that funded the project. Just my tinfoil hat theory tho.
:-)
Nes
We already know considering at the time our black ops group had IG and OOG intel on this topic.
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Paula Trevaline
Amarr Asguard Security Service Angels Of Discord
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Posted - 2007.10.08 00:16:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Vile rat Fun fact: LIH played a huge role in Goonfleet making it's start in Syndicate.
Fun Fact2 : ex-LIH returned in the form of Visual ID(VIDEO) at the time to help lead fleets and roaming gangs in Goonswarm in Syndicate still. (All VIDEO members of ex-LIH are now out of corp or not playing anymore, though.)
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Paula Trevaline
Amarr Asguard Security Service Angels Of Discord
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Posted - 2007.10.08 02:18:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Madscotsman Edited by: Madscotsman on 03/10/2007 14:58:17 I would love to see LIH reform and be the corp it once was. Those were good times. (forum whoring and Jirads leather pants ) *tear* *sniffle*
Jirad's leather pants were just fine and ...dandy..., it was the red fishnet shirt (albeit mixed with the pants they accentuated the vision) that put me into a panic.
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NocturnalDeath
Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.08 06:15:00 -
[108]
Waves to Scrutt5 and Paula
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Sacha Petrova
Mothers of EVE
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Posted - 2007.10.09 10:20:00 -
[109]
I liked Jirad's leather pants.
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Tareen Kashaar
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.10.09 17:23:00 -
[110]
Oh my god, so many familiar names!
<3 y'all.
I joined E-Uni on my first week in the game, something like 3 days into EVE. It was awesome! So many great people, such a nice project, and direct access to 0.0! I ratted like crazy in my first Prophecy in 8mg, to get me a Geddon... and then ratted like crazy in that to get me my first Apoc. I remember hating Guristas for their high EM resists, and being so proud I could be the tanker for a corp mining op!
I also remember being clueless about POSes, and taking part in the most unlikely fleet fight win in the MC war in a lowly griffin (trained just for this!), when we took down 4 BS, a command ship and two intys, losing only one t1 tackler. That felt just so great! And getting my first killmail and podkill. Oh the memories!
One of my characters joined LIH afterwards, but it wasn't what it used to be anymore. <3 to all of you guys!
Interestingly enough, after BLUE fell apart and I spent half a year ruining my sec status in any way possible (Hi Cadela! Hi Palli <3), I'm operating as an NRDS freespacer again now, with an entirely different approach. SF doesn't believe in a caste-like seperation of pvpers and industrialists. Don't be sheepish and rely on others' protection - know how to protect yourself, it's not that hard.
To be frank, I think TBB's demise was brought about in a big part by it's dependency culture... relying on the protection of the "police" force instead of teaching and encouraging people how to defend themselves is only one aspect of that.
Anyways, I probably wouldn't be where I am today without the nice welcome to EVE I got from EVE University and The Big Blue. Big thank you and much lurv! --- WTS: Forum Signatures, price negotiable. Evemail me!
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RedWyvern
Gallente FireStar Inc
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Posted - 2007.10.09 18:12:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Tareen Kashaar Oh my god, so many familiar names!
To be frank, I think TBB's demise was brought about in a big part by it's dependency culture... relying on the protection of the "police" force instead of teaching and encouraging people how to defend themselves is only one aspect of that.
nahh. Remember the first big fight on the gate when MC attacked? A decent chunk of the fleet was composed of the resident neutral corps who wanted to help defend.
On an individual level, yeah, there were quite a few fresh from empire unwilling to get their ears wet - but providing access was the point of TBB really. You've also got to consider that (iirc) it was also policy to prevent people from solo pvp, or working in gangs without Blue leadership in IPS. -------------------------------------------------- Loyalty, Integrity, Honour. |
Tareen Kashaar
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.10.09 18:51:00 -
[112]
Fair points.
On another note... who else misses Chandoi? :D --- WTS: Forum Signatures, price negotiable. Evemail me!
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Zoea
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.10.09 19:12:00 -
[113]
Sounds like a nice time had by all. No comments on the ASCN funding comment yet, notably (surely ASCN didnt manage to run BLUE in their spare time?!).
I find the BLUE post on NBSI/NRDS really interesting as at one point it seems to suggest to me that you would have had to try and convince every member of Eve to be a defacto member of BLUE to make it work :) Possibly explaining the name. Not sure this can be easily explained but it's when I read about not being able to shoot back until after loss of ships being tricky :) This strikes me as meaning that those who would shoot at you would have to be eventually made to be a member to avoid losses (and hence you were aiming to stop PVP!)
So, undoubtedly a huge isk sink then :) This is not why I posted by the way, just my observations on this topic.
By the way, would like to take this post as an opportunity to mention that I am worried eve players (especially newer players?) are not even now aware of how important it is to join a good corporation/alliance to get the most of their time. This has been bugging me for a long while.
People who remain in newb corporations are not really what alliances and player corporations are aiming for. We need members dont we? Why do we not worry about people choosing to stay in NPC corps all the time?
As for those who are in corps/alliances already, whether they are getting the most of their efforts also honestly worries me. If you are not sure what it would be like to join another organisation, but don't feel the inclination because you are happy doing less then others seem to do, then you should move on. You're not going to get enjoyment by wasting your own time here.
The PLAYERS are the most important part of Eve and making the most of your time with them is VERY ******* hard (in my experience) but I dont see this concern in the actions of fellow players 'quite often'. So this is why I worry. Eve players have sometimes seemed to me to be happy to play in the knowledge that they could do more (but maybe later?), but are just gonna do what they are doing for now. ***#$%#**? GET A CLUE (some), eve doesnt play itself, a good fleet fight is a rare enough thing even now.
I'm just trying to make sure you all get more from eve, don't pod me for this :)
{post made on behalf of Zoea's owner alone and not IRON/Synergy (i.e post not made in the context of corp goals/aims ). May need to remove this later, dunno [unlikely I think].}
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RedWyvern
Gallente FireStar Inc
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Posted - 2007.10.09 19:39:00 -
[114]
Edited by: RedWyvern on 09/10/2007 19:49:09
Originally by: Tareen Kashaar Fair points.
On another note... who else misses Chandoi? :D
hahah, I haven't heard that name in more than a year, and I instantly remember it. Would you believe I lost to him in a duel? (CTD'd, I swear, relogged to find myself in a pod)
Originally by: Zoea it's when I read about not being able to shoot back until after loss of ships being tricky :)
Eh, don't take what you read so literally. I'm having trouble digesting that wall of text...is the gist of what you're saying is that people become comfortable too easily, and don't try to 'maximise' their experience in the game? -------------------------------------------------- Loyalty, Integrity, Honour. |
Tareen Kashaar
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.10.12 05:49:00 -
[115]
Originally by: RedWyvern Edited by: RedWyvern on 09/10/2007 19:49:09
Originally by: Tareen Kashaar Fair points.
On another note... who else misses Chandoi? :D
hahah, I haven't heard that name in more than a year, and I instantly remember it. Would you believe I lost to him in a duel? (CTD'd, I swear, relogged to find myself in a pod)
The time he got killed by a Mining Barge was just hilarious --- WTS: Forum Signatures, price negotiable. Evemail me!
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Madscotsman
Gallente E'Ruthaer Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.10.12 13:25:00 -
[116]
Chandoi. That was it. I couldn't remember that guys name and it had been annoying me
Did anyone ever own up to him being their alt? Kedrich was the prime suspect.
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Sacha Petrova
Mothers of EVE
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Posted - 2007.10.27 23:56:00 -
[117]
Yes, I've reviving this thread, for good reason!
After poking around on our network, I found the recording of drunk Jirad on my fiance's computer. I asked him to edit the recording so it skips all of the boring parts and he kept the mp3.
I'm not around nearly enough to keep tabs on things, so I've uploaded it to my website.
Fun Times
Hugs & Kisses Sacha P
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Kasak Black
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.10.28 00:28:00 -
[118]
LOCKDOWN!
WE DIDN'T LISTEN!
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Lyl Libido
The Taining corp Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.10.28 00:35:00 -
[119]
Originally by: fugazii
tbb > e-u > storm > ci > iss > smash/roadkill
i want what he is smoking... <3 smashkill -Lyl Libido The Taining Corp |
Ogdru Jahad
Amarr War Dawgs
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Posted - 2007.10.29 04:52:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Paula Trevaline
Originally by: Vile rat Fun fact: LIH played a huge role in Goonfleet making it's start in Syndicate.
Fun Fact2 : ex-LIH returned in the form of Visual ID(VIDEO) at the time to help lead fleets and roaming gangs in Goonswarm in Syndicate still. (All VIDEO members of ex-LIH are now out of corp or not playing anymore, though.)
i aint been able to find a decent home since ohhhh bwf and the fall out of the do not shoot at people prders from the head guy of naga. -
At last the Gallente can finally lay claim to saying... "my DICtor" is bigger than yours.
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