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Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:24:00 - [91] Originally by: Motokko I think the real problem here is not so much the money to effort ratio but simply that a resource intended for everyone is able to be solo camped by one person effectively blocking out every other player in the game with almost nothing they can do to try and take it off you. Around 40 hackable cans here, half of which can spawn books and decryptors, we only bother with 25% of the cans that actually decryptors and books, the 25% that has a chance to drop the best amarr decyptor. The other 75% we do not touch. I don't see how we're blocking anything, the only thing we are doing is forcing other farmers like the OP to have to compete with us if he wants the best amarr decryptor.
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:25:00 - [92] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Anst Yorsen Edited by: Anst Yorsen on 04/10/2007 00:23:47 Oh and by the way, that's loot for the last week or so, not one day, but keep trying, lying really gets you places. so you keep a weeks loot in your cargo? Yes, we did, but after this thread I think it may be in our best interests to start dropping of loot daily ;)
Sixtina KL	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:28:00 - [93] Someone out there is making more money than I am; let's close the pool! __________________________________
Motokko Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:35:00 - [94] Originally by: Anst Yorsen Originally by: Motokko I think the real problem here is not so much the money to effort ratio but simply that a resource intended for everyone is able to be solo camped by one person effectively blocking out every other player in the game with almost nothing they can do to try and take it off you. Around 40 hackable cans here, half of which can spawn books and decryptors, we only bother with 25% of the cans that actually decryptors and books, the 25% that has a chance to drop the best amarr decyptor. The other 75% we do not touch. I don't see how we're blocking anything, the only thing we are doing is forcing other farmers like the OP to have to compete with us if he wants the best amarr decryptor. It doesn't matter that you're only camping a quarter of the cans, all that mean is that is takes 3 more people like you in that site to block it for thousands of other players. Its not what you're doing which is wrong, you're just taking advantage of the game mechanics, its these actual game mechanics which are wrong. No system in the game should be able to be monopolised by such an incredibly small fraction of the games population, at least not without competition. Because these sites are static and in high-sec there's really no way to compete once they're camped already.
Kayna Eelai	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:37:00 - [95] Originally by: Shereza If I could stand to run the missions enough times and long enough I could probably pull 160m/day on an 8-12 hour "work" day. Roughly 1.12b/week. Of course I run 2 characters so roughly 551m/week/character. 6 characters pulling 3b/week in a complex seems roughly comparable. When I set up a corporate mining op awhile back we were pulling about 22m/hour with roughly 6 people. 168m/day, 1.176b/week, high-sec mining. Guess the risk/reward matches up. difference is that we have to WORK HARD to complete missions and not get blwon up, and we are in front of the computer AND we use the cash for ourselves... while these guys 1) can be afk 19 minutes and come back 1 minute 2) probably using auto macros anyways 3) if they make such a huge amount of cash, probably selling on ebay, otherwise would be stupi to pay for 6 accounts with zero real money profit (unless they buy timecodes with the isk) or whatever.
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:37:00 - [96] I'm going to clear one last thing up, the actual reason we camp these 6 specific cans with 6 abaddons. We came here solely with the intent to farm the best amarr decryptor in preperation for Rev 3, when we arrived however we saw not only was the place being farmed, but the players doing the farming had some very lame tactics indeed, and were logged on for most of the day and night. They used one ship to tank and used interceptors to speed around the cans and get the good stuff, if we started hacking, they got rid of the tank and just let us get the crap from the cans, if something good spawned, they would get to the right can and take the decryptor or book very quickly, before our slow ships could even respond. We were doing the work of taking the crap decryptors out only so they could come in and steal the good stuff. So what did we do? Dumped a battleship on each of the highest level cans so now those little npc corp farmer interceptors and their speed meant nothing. This was the ultimate plan to counter their very annoying setup, and it works.
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:39:00 - [97] Originally by: Motokko Originally by: Anst Yorsen Originally by: Motokko I think the real problem here is not so much the money to effort ratio but simply that a resource intended for everyone is able to be solo camped by one person effectively blocking out every other player in the game with almost nothing they can do to try and take it off you. Around 40 hackable cans here, half of which can spawn books and decryptors, we only bother with 25% of the cans that actually decryptors and books, the 25% that has a chance to drop the best amarr decyptor. The other 75% we do not touch. I don't see how we're blocking anything, the only thing we are doing is forcing other farmers like the OP to have to compete with us if he wants the best amarr decryptor. It doesn't matter that you're only camping a quarter of the cans, all that mean is that is takes 3 more people like you in that site to block it for thousands of other players. Its not what you're doing which is wrong, you're just taking advantage of the game mechanics, its these actual game mechanics which are wrong. No system in the game should be able to be monopolised by such an incredibly small fraction of the games population, at least not without competition. Because these sites are static and in high-sec there's really no way to compete once they're camped already. 3 people cannot take all of the cans, there's about 40 or so cans here and they all spawn at the same time, one person cannot grab all the cans at once even if he was using multiple accounts, so long as a played character is sat at every can the person with multiple accounts would only manage to grab one can.
Kayna Eelai	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:41:00 - [98] Originally by: Death Kill and why do you keep all your characters in npc corporations? so you can't get a wardec, which would compromise your security in highsec.
Motokko Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:45:00 - [99] Originally by: Anst Yorsen Originally by: Motokko Originally by: Anst Yorsen Originally by: Motokko I think the real problem here is not so much the money to effort ratio but simply that a resource intended for everyone is able to be solo camped by one person effectively blocking out every other player in the game with almost nothing they can do to try and take it off you. Around 40 hackable cans here, half of which can spawn books and decryptors, we only bother with 25% of the cans that actually decryptors and books, the 25% that has a chance to drop the best amarr decyptor. The other 75% we do not touch. I don't see how we're blocking anything, the only thing we are doing is forcing other farmers like the OP to have to compete with us if he wants the best amarr decryptor. It doesn't matter that you're only camping a quarter of the cans, all that mean is that is takes 3 more people like you in that site to block it for thousands of other players. Its not what you're doing which is wrong, you're just taking advantage of the game mechanics, its these actual game mechanics which are wrong. No system in the game should be able to be monopolised by such an incredibly small fraction of the games population, at least not without competition. Because these sites are static and in high-sec there's really no way to compete once they're camped already. 3 people cannot take all of the cans, there's about 40 or so cans here and they all spawn at the same time, one person cannot grab all the cans at once even if he was using multiple accounts, so long as a played character is sat at every can the person with multiple accounts would only manage to grab one can. Ok but still we're not talking order of magnitude difference here. 3 or 40 people needed to perma-block this resource for 20 thousand plus players without any chance to fight for the resource is still broken.
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:53:00 - [100] Originally by: Motokko Originally by: Anst Yorsen Originally by: Motokko Originally by: Anst Yorsen Originally by: Motokko I think the real problem here is not so much the money to effort ratio but simply that a resource intended for everyone is able to be solo camped by one person effectively blocking out every other player in the game with almost nothing they can do to try and take it off you. Around 40 hackable cans here, half of which can spawn books and decryptors, we only bother with 25% of the cans that actually decryptors and books, the 25% that has a chance to drop the best amarr decyptor. The other 75% we do not touch. I don't see how we're blocking anything, the only thing we are doing is forcing other farmers like the OP to have to compete with us if he wants the best amarr decryptor. It doesn't matter that you're only camping a quarter of the cans, all that mean is that is takes 3 more people like you in that site to block it for thousands of other players. Its not what you're doing which is wrong, you're just taking advantage of the game mechanics, its these actual game mechanics which are wrong. No system in the game should be able to be monopolised by such an incredibly small fraction of the games population, at least not without competition. Because these sites are static and in high-sec there's really no way to compete once they're camped already. 3 people cannot take all of the cans, there's about 40 or so cans here and they all spawn at the same time, one person cannot grab all the cans at once even if he was using multiple accounts, so long as a played character is sat at every can the person with multiple accounts would only manage to grab one can. Ok but still we're not talking order of magnitude difference here. 3 or 40 people needed to perma-block this resource for 20 thousand plus players without any chance to fight for the resource is still broken. What if 20,000 people sat at the cans, 500 people per can? All people would have equal chance, it's just whoever is most on the ball wins.

Zoltaris COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:55:00 - [101] Originally by: Anst Yorsen If anyone honestly believes we made 6 bill in a day here then come try for yourselves. We can't, you take all the cans in 0.1 sec as soon as they respawn, most likely using some macro, but we can't prove that, can we? The fair way to solve this is to remove the valuable decryptors from these plex and make them spawn in bigger number from exploration, to ensure a constant supply Or move the plex to 0.4 or less sec so you can't hide in NPC corps ----- > Amongst the Top 10
Bastheth	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:55:00 - [102] As if 20 k People would try to farm there everyday Over 6 bil per day is just a lie. It does not even come close to that. I dont understand how he can block the important cargos with 6 ships, even if there are 18-20 cargos where the good stuff spawns and the rest with average stuff but not that bad.
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:58:00 - [103] Originally by: Zoltaris Originally by: Anst Yorsen If anyone honestly believes we made 6 bill in a day here then come try for yourselves. We can't, you take all the cans in 0.1 sec as soon as they respawn, most likely using some macro, but we can't prove that, can we? The fair way to solve this is to remove the valuable decryptors from these plex and make them spawn in bigger number from exploration, to ensure a constant supply Or move the plex to 0.4 or less sec so you can't hide in NPC corps 0.1 sec? You actually found a method in which you could calculate this and you get 10 milliseconds? For some reason i don't believe you. We take the cans as soon as they spawn, if we don't then someone else will, that's all there is to it.
Motokko Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:59:00 - [104] Come on now, that's hardly a realistic situation. Its not going to take many people sat on the cans before it becomes totaly unproffitable and a waste of time. Just seeing one person camping a can will be enough to put people off going for that can. The fact that that one person can just sit there indefinately on the can effectively blocks it for everyone. That's what is broken. Remove the ability to perma-block be having random spawn sites and putting it in a sec were people can actualy fight over it and all is well.
Sinonia Torviir	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:00:00 - [105] my general experience with this kind of ppl its really strange that, the cosmos farmers always claim the income is crap compared to anything, else they make it sound like if even picking ur nose gets u more and invite u to try urself... makes u wonder why they still camp it so hardcore with several suicide gank accounts as backup in case anyone stays too long and too close to their precious (errr worthless i mean ofcourse) cans (sidenote i didnt get ganked but saw a couple who were) they never macro no ofc not they just happen sometimes to miss a chat invite on all their accounts for an hour or more while still looting the cans so they r all innocent, they basically get nothing out of it, they just do it because well no reason really, everyone can come and try themself they have no problem with competition to sum it up these r the most fine players of all eve and all u other ppl r just mean
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:03:00 - [106] Originally by: Motokko Come on now, that's hardly a realistic situation. Its not going to take many people sat on the cans before it becomes totaly unproffitable and a waste of time. Just seeing one person camping a can will be enough to put people off going for that can. The fact that that one person can just sit there indefinately on the can effectively blocks it for everyone. That's what is broken. Remove the ability to perma-block be having random spawn sites and putting it in a sec were people can actualy fight over it and all is well. Shh, don't say that, the OP who made this thread absolutely does not want this to happen because he wants to farm the best decryptor and books for himself, that's why he made this post, somehow, he believes that by making this post it will actually increase his chances of getting more books and decryptors to sell for BBQ amounts of isk.
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:04:00 - [107] Originally by: Sinonia Torviir my general experience with this kind of ppl its really strange that, the cosmos farmers always claim the income is crap compared to anything, else they make it sound like if even picking ur nose gets u more and invite u to try urself... makes u wonder why they still camp it so hardcore with several suicide gank accounts as backup in case anyone stays too long and too close to their precious (errr worthless i mean ofcourse) cans (sidenote i didnt get ganked but saw a couple who were) they never macro no ofc not they just happen sometimes to miss a chat invite on all their accounts for an hour or more while still looting the cans so they r all innocent, they basically get nothing out of it, they just do it because well no reason really, everyone can come and try themself they have no problem with competition to sum it up these r the most fine players of all eve and all u other ppl r just mean I never at any point said we make crap income here, the OP has flat out lied about the isk to be made from here and i'm merely enlightening people to the truth.
Locus Bey Gallente Qalandar	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:12:00 - [108] Originally by: Anst Yorsen I'm going to clear one last thing up, the actual reason we camp these 6 specific cans with 6 abaddons. We came here solely with the intent to farm the best amarr decryptor in preperation for Rev 3, when we arrived however we saw not only was the place being farmed, but the players doing the farming had some very lame tactics indeed, and were logged on for most of the day and night. They used one ship to tank and used interceptors to speed around the cans and get the good stuff, if we started hacking, they got rid of the tank and just let us get the crap from the cans, if something good spawned, they would get to the right can and take the decryptor or book very quickly, before our slow ships could even respond. We were doing the work of taking the crap decryptors out only so they could come in and steal the good stuff. So what did we do? Dumped a battleship on each of the highest level cans so now those little npc corp farmer interceptors and their speed meant nothing. This was the ultimate plan to counter their very annoying setup, and it works. Yeh sure Pinocchio You are no different than the farmers that where there before you, or the farmers of the Gallente and Minmatar plexes. Your pretence of high and mighty is a crock. You hide in NPC corps knowing you won't get a war dec. You sit on the only cans that drop the skill books, making it impossible for anyone else. And oh aren't you good for supplying the market Sure it's all legal, cos CCP can't be arsed fixing where and when invention goods drop. Even if they made it completely random in the plexes as to where and when invention skills/components dropped it would be better than now. As it is there are a small few making it impossible for the small inventor/explorer, let alone the rest. If it's not them its the next lot of farmers who push them out.
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:15:00 - [109] Edited by: Anst Yorsen on 04/10/2007 11:15:34 Originally by: Locus Bey Originally by: Anst Yorsen I'm going to clear one last thing up, the actual reason we camp these 6 specific cans with 6 abaddons. We came here solely with the intent to farm the best amarr decryptor in preperation for Rev 3, when we arrived however we saw not only was the place being farmed, but the players doing the farming had some very lame tactics indeed, and were logged on for most of the day and night. They used one ship to tank and used interceptors to speed around the cans and get the good stuff, if we started hacking, they got rid of the tank and just let us get the crap from the cans, if something good spawned, they would get to the right can and take the decryptor or book very quickly, before our slow ships could even respond. We were doing the work of taking the crap decryptors out only so they could come in and steal the good stuff. So what did we do? Dumped a battleship on each of the highest level cans so now those little npc corp farmer interceptors and their speed meant nothing. This was the ultimate plan to counter their very annoying setup, and it works. Yeh sure Pinocchio You are no different than the farmers that where there before you, or the farmers of the Gallente and Minmatar plexes. Your pretence of high and mighty is a crock. You hide in NPC corps knowing you won't get a war dec. You sit on the only cans that drop the skill books, making it impossible for anyone else. And oh aren't you good for supplying the market Sure it's all legal, cos CCP can't be arsed fixing where and when invention goods drop. Even if they made it completely random in the plexes as to where and when invention skills/components dropped it would be better than now. As it is there are a small few making it impossible for the small inventor/explorer, let alone the rest. If it's not them its the next lot of farmers who push them out. We do not sit on the only cans that drop books, every single can that spawns a decryptor also has a chance to spawn a book, there's around 40 cans here, half of which drop decryptors, we camp 6 cans, now figure out the number of cans that that books that we never hack. Here's the answer for you, 15-20. Skillbooks already drop from exploration aswell, you get a couple from a radar site last time i checked.
Locus Bey Gallente Qalandar	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:17:00 - [110] Originally by: Anst Yorsen Edited by: Anst Yorsen on 04/10/2007 11:15:34 Originally by: Locus Bey Originally by: Anst Yorsen I'm going to clear one last thing up, the actual reason we camp these 6 specific cans with 6 abaddons. We came here solely with the intent to farm the best amarr decryptor in preperation for Rev 3, when we arrived however we saw not only was the place being farmed, but the players doing the farming had some very lame tactics indeed, and were logged on for most of the day and night. They used one ship to tank and used interceptors to speed around the cans and get the good stuff, if we started hacking, they got rid of the tank and just let us get the crap from the cans, if something good spawned, they would get to the right can and take the decryptor or book very quickly, before our slow ships could even respond. We were doing the work of taking the crap decryptors out only so they could come in and steal the good stuff. So what did we do? Dumped a battleship on each of the highest level cans so now those little npc corp farmer interceptors and their speed meant nothing. This was the ultimate plan to counter their very annoying setup, and it works. Yeh sure Pinocchio You are no different than the farmers that where there before you, or the farmers of the Gallente and Minmatar plexes. Your pretence of high and mighty is a crock. You hide in NPC corps knowing you won't get a war dec. You sit on the only cans that drop the skill books, making it impossible for anyone else. And oh aren't you good for supplying the market Sure it's all legal, cos CCP can't be arsed fixing where and when invention goods drop. Even if they made it completely random in the plexes as to where and when invention skills/components dropped it would be better than now. As it is there are a small few making it impossible for the small inventor/explorer, let alone the rest. If it's not them its the next lot of farmers who push them out. We do not sit on the only cans that drop books, every single can that spawns a decryptor also has a chance to spawn a book, there's around 40 cans here, half of which drop decryptors, we camp 6 cans, now figure out the number of cans that that books that we never hack. Here's the answer for you, 15-20. Skillbooks already drop from exploration aswell, you get a couple from a radar site last time i checked. Bull****

Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:18:00 - [111] Anyone willing to back me up on this? Any hackable can that spawns decryptors also has a chance to spawn a book, there's plenty in EVE that know this.
Sinonia Torviir	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:23:00 - [112] Originally by: Anst Yorsen Anyone willing to back me up on this? Any hackable can that spawns decryptors also has a chance to spawn a book, there's plenty in EVE that know this. sure one of ur alts is willing to back u up btw isnt it funny that 6 cans seems to be the magic number for cosmos plexes?
Anvalor Gallente Germania Inc. D0GMA	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:23:00 - [113] Edited by: Anvalor on 04/10/2007 11:26:52 Originally by: Anst Yorsen Anyone willing to back me up on this? Any hackable can that spawns decryptors also has a chance to spawn a book, there's plenty in EVE that know this. Thats right. Books do not only spawn in 6 or less containers but in all containers where decryptors also can spawn. Dont know about Gallente and Minmatar Cosmos tho. I am not his alt and he is not mine. Seems like here are more than only one Pinocchio.
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:24:00 - [114] Originally by: Sinonia Torviir Originally by: Anst Yorsen Anyone willing to back me up on this? Any hackable can that spawns decryptors also has a chance to spawn a book, there's plenty in EVE that know this. sure one of ur alts is willing to back u up btw isnt it funny that 6 cans seems to be the magic number for cosmos plexes? Lol, ridiculous, so now if someone replies and backs me up, they are just an alt of mine, what a brilliant way to scare away anyone from posting and backing me up on this.
Locus Bey Gallente Qalandar	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:26:00 - [115] How many petitions do you think there are against the farmers of the faction complexes? How many complaints are there about not being able to get to the limited amount of cans due to farmers sitting on them/remote repping rats/camping from 12-18 hrs a day/etc etc? Do you think we are all stupid and don't know you have these sights all sown up for you and you alone?
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:28:00 - [116] Originally by: Locus Bey How many petitions do you think there are against the farmers of the faction complexes? How many complaints are there about not being able to get to the limited amount of cans due to farmers sitting on them/remote repping rats/camping from 12-18 hrs a day/etc etc? Do you think we are all stupid and don't know you have these sights all sown up for you and you alone? Patch notes, repairing rats gets you concorded. Now seriously, why do you choose to ignore what we were just talking about now that someone has backed up my claims? Perhaps this is news to you, but most of the cans that drop skillbooks spend most of the day unfarmed. So much for people not being able to access the resources huh?
Sjoor S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:37:00 - [117] Keep up the good work, and invent me some amarr tech 2 bs soon. I can't be arsed to go over all this invention crap, nor do I have the time to stay around a plex 12 hours a day. I do want tech 2 BS tho. So I guess I'll have to pay some nice iskies to ya soon. And nicely done, the tanking abaddons. Proper use of game mechanics, can't say there is much difference to any other form of isk making, either mining, npcing or mission running, It's all boring and doing the same stuff over and over again. Greets Sjoor ---- Remove aggro reset on jump, remove secure can concord flagging
Locus Bey Gallente Qalandar	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:37:00 - [118] Originally by: Anst Yorsen Originally by: Locus Bey How many petitions do you think there are against the farmers of the faction complexes? How many complaints are there about not being able to get to the limited amount of cans due to farmers sitting on them/remote repping rats/camping from 12-18 hrs a day/etc etc? Do you think we are all stupid and don't know you have these sights all sown up for you and you alone? Patch notes, repairing rats gets you concorded. Now seriously, why do you choose to ignore what we were just talking about now that someone has backed up my claims? Perhaps this is news to you, but most of the cans that drop skillbooks spend most of the day unfarmed. So much for people not being able to access the resources huh? Does now yes. Was a great exploit until now? Did you use it? Doesn't mean its any easier to get to any of the needed cans in any of the plexes. You speed around all 40 cans do you? You don't sit on top of certain cans I gather? With 40 cans up for grab everyone is getting their fair share? Get your hand off it.
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:40:00 - [119] Edited by: Anst Yorsen on 04/10/2007 11:45:01 Edited by: Anst Yorsen on 04/10/2007 11:44:42 Originally by: Locus Bey Originally by: Anst Yorsen Originally by: Locus Bey How many petitions do you think there are against the farmers of the faction complexes? How many complaints are there about not being able to get to the limited amount of cans due to farmers sitting on them/remote repping rats/camping from 12-18 hrs a day/etc etc? Do you think we are all stupid and don't know you have these sights all sown up for you and you alone? Patch notes, repairing rats gets you concorded. Now seriously, why do you choose to ignore what we were just talking about now that someone has backed up my claims? Perhaps this is news to you, but most of the cans that drop skillbooks spend most of the day unfarmed. So much for people not being able to access the resources huh? Does now yes. Was a great exploit until now? Did you use it? Doesn't mean its any easier to get to any of the needed cans in any of the plexes. You speed around all 40 cans do you? You don't sit on top of certain cans I gather? With 40 cans up for grab everyone is getting their fair share? Get your hand off it. We're in big slow abaddons and camp the cans with a chance to drop the decryptor we're after. We don't go around the other cans because 1. We don't need extra books and 2. We're slow. The other cans are up for grabs for almost the whole day, sometimes other people come in and hack them and every now and then someone links the Amarr Encryption Methods skillbook that they just got from hacking one of those cans that you claim don't even drop books.
Anst Yorsen Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 11:44:00 - [120] Edited by: Anst Yorsen on 04/10/2007 11:46:17 Just can't win arguing with some people, if we got every single can we'd have the same argument, about how we're hogging it all, we only get about 25% of the cans, so because of this certain people such as the above poster take it that those other cans don't drop books. Winning is impossible, no matter what you do or say, they will find an answer. It's his loss anyway, and anyone who believes him, one person has already backed me up but apparently he's invisible. I'll make it clearer, if you want an encryption methods book, hack cans that drop decryptors for a while, you're certain to get one, and how soon depends on luck.



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