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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
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CCP kieron
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Posted - 2007.10.10 17:29:00 -
[1]
EVE Online has grown and changed over the years since her release. Evolution and change are necessary to the growth of a product and the next major EVE expansion slated for release later this year is no exception. Chronotis has been working on the Invention system and has written a blog. Contained in the blog is information concerning some of the changes to the Invention system and static COSMOS complexes.
Want to know what these changes are? Be sure to check out the blog, Invention Evolved.
kieron
Director of Community Relations, EVE Online
EVE Online, CCP Games
Email/Netfang
Look Ma, I'm in a Dev thread! Oh wait... |
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Konquera McCall
Acme Import Export
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Posted - 2007.10.10 17:35:00 -
[2]
Excellent! Very excited that farming will be reduced in the Cosmos complexes.
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Zifban
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Posted - 2007.10.10 17:43:00 -
[3]
Are you going to increase the number of Radar sites to compensate?
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Gestation
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Posted - 2007.10.10 17:43:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
...this leading to a random chance of a Tech II variant being produced
What IS the base success/failure rate of invention anyways? It's not really fair that the devs have access to this information and regular players do not.
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.10 17:49:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Vitaki on 10/10/2007 17:55:15
Yeah great remove the cosmos complexes and watch the +4 best chance encryptors become so expensive that inventing ships takes twice the capitol and new people trying to get into the game have an even larger barrier of entry because of hugely increased prices. I'd guess that all of the current cosmos items go up in price by a gigantic amount, it's simply impossible to get decent numbers of items from exploration complexes, and I think the entire exploration system is deeply flawed.
I've never agreed with the removal of these complexes they are another great area of the game that causes a ton of conflict. Removing them and making them a booring thing that causes no conflict at all is dumb. Just move them into lowsec so people can fight over them.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.10.10 17:52:00 -
[6]
Excellent work. Eve has made some serious progress in the past couple of patches. I am extremely excited for these future changes!
Rhaegor Stormborn
Fleet Admiral - Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
[PIA] Recruitment Thread |
Quutar
Ars ex Discordia
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Posted - 2007.10.10 17:52:00 -
[7]
while making the outcome non random is good... why can't we go the extra step and provide the actual percentages involved
it could even be within RP
"We believe that the research has a 46.5% chance of success"
just so we know what dice we are rolling
Quutar Research Services
Selling Amarr Outpost BPCs ME:10 |
Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.10 17:54:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Quutar
while making the outcome non random is good... why can't we go the extra step and provide the actual percentages involved
it could even be within RP
"We believe that the research has a 46.5% chance of success"
just so we know what dice we are rolling
Oh man, I would kill my mother if this were implemented. I'd be able to begin production of a vast number of additional ships and items if I could accuratly predict my profits for them. As it is all I have to work with is a bunch of nearly impossible to define numbers.
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MajorScrewup
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Posted - 2007.10.10 17:57:00 -
[9]
While its nice these are getting moved to help people, who are simply doing the cosmos, will we get an increase in radar sites.
Their very sporadic, sometimes i dont see one for weeks, and in over 10 months of radar exploration, i've never ever seen a book drop.....
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:00:00 -
[10]
Good changes!
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Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:05:00 -
[11]
Less Farming = Good
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Stop the Feature Glut: Take the API to the Next Level
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Gestation
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:07:00 -
[12]
...Want to re-iterate that giving us an idea of the percentage of success would be huge in getting more people into invention. This HAS to be implemented soon, or invention will fall flat on its face.
People don't like rolling dice when they don't know how many sides are on the dice (d20 anyone?)
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Gridwalker
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:11:00 -
[13]
First off, this statement:
"COSMOS will be returned to the agent and exploration based area of unique beauty it was intended to be."
I find it hard to believe the COSMOS area was ever intended to be anything except a farming heaven and a nightmare for anyone attempting to follow the arcs there or get a little bit of faction. Everything negative about every MMO before EVE was jammed into that area, as if the whole area was designed as one giant inside joke.
Doesn't matter, to be honest--invention has some really massive design flaws, and having decryptors not farmable isn't going to help. But I'll leave this rant for another blog. :)
-Grid
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Ampoliros
Shadow Company
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:12:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ampoliros on 10/10/2007 18:13:10
Originally by: Zifban
Are you going to increase the number of Radar sites to compensate?
I'd be interested in this answer as well, I'd hate to see prices shoot up even more due to this. As it is, one of my alliancemates mentioned that he's spent 900m on invention and he hasn't even invented anything yet  , so higher prices will make things pretty seriously bad.
------------------------------------
My statements are not those of my corp or of my alliance, nor anyone else.
[Insert witty comment here] |
Two step
Amarr
Chosen Path
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:15:00 -
[15]
Any chance while you are messing with COSMOS you might fix the absurdly low drop rates for some of the components needed to build COSMOS items? Takmahl Tri-polished lenses are next to impossible to find, for example.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:19:00 -
[16]
we are moving not removing the invention items supply from COSMOS which means yes, the same amount items will be distributed by exploration now rather than split between exploration and COSMOS as currently is the case.
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Carrie Me
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:21:00 -
[17]
Can we have radar exploration sites in ALL regions ?
Drone regions don't get any profession sites atm, maybe thats deliberate, maybe a bug. Any comments ?
To support other posts, please increase the # radar sites and drop rates for decryptors.
Good to see that CCP is keeping a close eye on events like this - the decryptor prices are ridiculous atm, I wonder how anyone justifies buying them.
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Gestation
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:22:00 -
[18]
Ok ya that's um great.
But what about telling us the chance of success for invention? This should have been detailed when it was released, but now it seems like some big secret nobody but the devs know :(
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Lothendra
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:26:00 -
[19]
Let's hope all the anchored cans that litter COSMOS sites get removed... mind you they said they'd remove all cans from 0.8+ belts but that hasn't happened yet :(
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Raketefrau
Caldari
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:26:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Carrie Me
Can we have radar exploration sites in ALL regions ?
Drone regions don't get any profession sites atm, maybe thats deliberate, maybe a bug. Any comments ?
Agreed. Can we PLEASE get some Radar sites in the drone regions?
Basically, you join a corp, you make friends in Eve, then you find yourself living with your friends in the drone regions, and millsions of your SP are completely wasted.
If you chose Exploration as a profession, you're screwed out there.
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Gestation
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:33:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Gestation on 10/10/2007 18:34:40
Edited by: Gestation on 10/10/2007 18:34:15
Edited by: Gestation on 10/10/2007 18:33:45
Originally by: Raketefrau
Agreed. Can we PLEASE get some Radar sites in the drone regions?
Basically, you join a corp, you make friends in Eve, then you find yourself living with your friends in the drone regions, and millsions of your SP are completely wasted.
If you chose Exploration as a profession, you're screwed out there.
This:
Originally by: CCP Oveur
More exploratory material to explore, exploratorily of course
We're following exploration up with more encounters and also changing multifrequency probes. The Multifrequency probes take the selected scan group into account when deciding what results to return. With the Encounters being moved to Cosmic Anomalies and being given a Deadspace Anomaly beacon, you should be able to scan for either or both groups.
Edit note: There is also specific Drone Region encounters here.
http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=501
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William Caldwell
Gallente
ISS Logistics
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
we are moving not removing the invention items supply from COSMOS which means yes, the same amount items will be distributed by exploration now rather than split between exploration and COSMOS as currently is the case.
I just wonder if people just went and bought all decryptors off the markets since that dev blog and your reply just now! 
But good good, farming ftl!
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Bein Glorious
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:36:00 -
[23]
Uh, today I noticed that on the test server there's the tab where you can choose what to focus the invention attempt on. The only deal is that among the choices are things like State Issue Ravens, Imperial Armageddons, Bhaalgorns, and other faction ships. I'm not sure if this is intentional, and I kind of hope it isn't, since State Issue Ravens and Tribal Issue Tempests would be massively overpowered in the context of other normal ships if you could simply manufacture them. I wonder if maybe they have a very, very low success rate as a limiting factor, or maybe this is just a bug and you won't be able to invent faction ships in Rev 3.
Seems like it would be a bug, but I'm not sure. |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:38:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Bein Glorious
Uh, today I noticed that on the test server there's the tab where you can choose what to focus the invention attempt on. The only deal is that among the choices are things like State Issue Ravens, Imperial Armageddons, Bhaalgorns, and other faction ships. I'm not sure if this is intentional, and I kind of hope it isn't,
Seems like it would be a bug, but I'm not sure.
it is a bug, already fixed internally and should roll out to sisi over the next week.
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Drenan
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:40:00 -
[25]
This is what happens when you let one sub-sphere of an MMO (invention in this case) assume an importance to the economy out of all proportion to the number of players who actually participate in it.
You would have thought that CCP would have followed the Vanguard SOH debacle more closely...and realised that overly complicated and tedious 'crafting' systems will jump up and bite you in the ass eventually.
Time to remember that this game is driven by pew pew first and foremost...and time for some focus on enhanced gameplay rather than on systems that seem to be designed to appeal to a sub-set of a sub-set of hair-shirt wearing former MUD players, like Invention?
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Gestation
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Posted - 2007.10.10 18:57:00 -
[26]
sigh.. I give up.
At least tell us you're not going to tell us or something. Anything!
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.10 19:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
it is a bug, already fixed internally and should roll out to sisi over the next week.
The new output tab show up in all windows (manufacturing, copying and so on).
The new ship types (heavy interdictors) aren't associated with normal factories as can be seen here.
Also, any particular reason why Heavy Interdictors need Cruiser Construction 5 when no other cruiser sized ships do?
Signature approved by Eldo |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2007.10.10 19:16:00 -
[28]
Relax, some things we cannot answer straight away :), there is no plans to publish the formula or show the effects.
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Tareen Kashaar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.10.10 19:20:00 -
[29]
Ignore the whining, I think this is a good step forward!
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WTS: Forum Signatures, price negotiable. Evemail me!
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Whip Slagcheek
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Posted - 2007.10.10 19:25:00 -
[30]
As I understand it, the items in the game that are used to build interfaces and the decryptors were originally added so that you could complete the COSMOS build missions and build the COSMOS blueprint copies that you get as a reward from missions.
Would you please consider changing the build requirements of the COSMOS item blueprints? As it stands, the price of an interface on the market directly correlates with how expensive it is to build COSMOS modules. Not surprisingly, the majority of COSMOS modules are incredibly expensive to build and no one messes with but a few of the modules.
These COSMOS modules are for the most part not game imbalancing; in fact, quite a few of the modules are pretty poor performers. However they are quite neat and I wish more were built and in use.
In short, please change COSMOS module build materials to new items dropped by COSMOS rats so these "reward" bpcs are actually useful.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2007.10.10 19:27:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky
The new output tab show up in all windows (manufacturing, copying and so on).
The new ship types (heavy interdictors) aren't associated with normal factories as can be seen here.
Also, any particular reason why Heavy Interdictors need Cruiser Construction 5 when no other cruiser sized ships do?
none of that stuff is ready for testing yet, just the invention part has already been completed for testing, which you have already experimented with. The assembly lines have been internally updated (something we have to do with any new ship class additions).
Balancing is ongoing now internally still but expect the cruiser construction to drop to level 4 and likewise with the T2 battleship science skill manufacturing requirements next week when the science and industry part of the new ships will be ready for public testing.
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Gestation
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Posted - 2007.10.10 19:36:00 -
[32]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Gestation
At least tell us you're not going to tell us or something. Anything!
Relax, some things we cannot answer straight away :), there is no plans to publish the formula or show the effects.
I really don't mean to sound 'whiney' and all - I truely do love the game - I wouldn't be here otherwise.
But - don't you think that is an unfair advantage the devs and GM's have? Knowing those formulas would really help when deciding what to invent, and how often.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2007.10.10 19:37:00 -
[33]
Re: cosmos modules
yes, the build requirements are very 'unique' and an issue we have been aware of for some time. It will be getting attention but cannot say anything more specific than that currently.
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Dellirium Tremens
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Posted - 2007.10.10 19:39:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Two step
Any chance while you are messing with COSMOS you might fix the absurdly low drop rates for some of the components needed to build COSMOS items? Takmahl Tri-polished lenses are next to impossible to find, for example.
+1
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.10.10 19:51:00 -
[35]
Good stuff.
RE: Cosmos. While I think just moving the farmable Cosmos sites to LoSec would have solved the problem, this solution makes sense too. Plus as a sometime Explorer, I stand to make some iskies from it. 
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Helison
Gallente
Times of Ancar
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.10.10 20:01:00 -
[36]
First: Thanks for the ‘Output Type’ box. This is really a major improvement (and I¦ve tested it already on Sisi).
I still have a few requests in regards of invention:
Invention formula: I accept, that you don¦t publish the formula for invention (altough it would be great), but could you please tell us if adding a T1 ship to an invention job has any influence?
Will you make any changes to the invention formula for Kali 3? How about an influence of ME and PE of the T1 BPC?
How about changing the Boni of decryptors, as they are currently quite unbalanced? How about adding a method of improving the ME-level of the T2 BPC?
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2007.10.10 20:01:00 -
[37]
I updated the blog to clarify the COSMOS complexes themselves are not getting removed, just the hacking containers that drop the invention items.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2007.10.10 20:06:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Helison
I still have a few requests in regards of invention:
Invention formula: I accept, that you don¦t publish the formula for invention (altough it would be great), but could you please tell us if adding a T1 ship to an invention job has any influence?
Will you make any changes to the invention formula for Kali 3? How about an influence of ME and PE of the T1 BPC?
How about changing the Boni of decryptors, as they are currently quite unbalanced? How about adding a method of improving the ME-level of the T2 BPC?
all of this is will be discussed in the next blog about invention. All I can say at this time is internal discussions are ongoing.
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Helison
Gallente
Times of Ancar
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.10.10 20:15:00 -
[39]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
all of this is will be discussed in the next blog about invention. All I can say at this time is internal discussions are ongoing.
Thanks for the answer! Looking forward to the next blog!
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Gestation
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Posted - 2007.10.10 20:26:00 -
[40]
Excellent. Thank you.
At least now we know our questions aren't being ignored.
At the meeting, please allow someone to note that with the devs having an unfair advantage, it seriously impacts the fairness (and quality) of the game, and should not be taken lightly or 'brushed off' as something unimportant. It is very important to the community, as evidenced by the endless threads concerning invention.
Thanks again.
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.10 20:30:00 -
[41]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
we are moving not removing the invention items supply from COSMOS which means yes, the same amount items will be distributed by exploration now rather than split between exploration and COSMOS as currently is the case.
Except hardly anyone does exploration so the items will become ultra rare. Just look at the prices for dadspace items of all types they have gone WAY up in value because the supply has completely dried up. It's bizzare how out of contact you seem to be that you haven't realized that taking away static complexes has vastly increased the rarity of all items that used to spawn there.
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Zikka
The Establishment
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Posted - 2007.10.10 20:34:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Vitaki
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
we are moving not removing the invention items supply from COSMOS which means yes, the same amount items will be distributed by exploration now rather than split between exploration and COSMOS as currently is the case.
Except hardly anyone does exploration so the items will become ultra rare. Just look at the prices for dadspace items of all types they have gone WAY up in value because the supply has completely dried up. It's bizzare how out of contact you seem to be that you haven't realized that taking away static complexes has vastly increased the rarity of all items that used to spawn there.
Which is extra incentive to get out there and get exploring!
Having said that the number and quality of results from exploration could probably do with some work...
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.10 20:35:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Tareen Kashaar
Ignore the whining, I think this is a good step forward!
How much invention do you do making this statement? Do you understand how this will affect everyone that currently does invention? I have like 4 characters and 3 alts dedicated to invention and production and 20 slots full time producing t2 moduls 7 days a week. This change removing cosmos complexes could quite possibly make ship invention untenable, if you don't have access to relativly cheap +4 + best chance or +9 chance decryptors ship invention would be worthless.
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.10 20:37:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Vitaki on 10/10/2007 20:40:41
Originally by: Zikka
Which is extra incentive to get out there and get exploring!
Having said that the number and quality of results from exploration could probably do with some work...
I do some really boring stuff in EVE I've ran level 4 missions until I went blue in the face and had over 3b isk purely from mission running, I've mined in giant mining gangs in 0.0 and solo ratted for uncountable hours, and personally crashed the myrmidon and drake markets in Ourslart because I was trying to run full production runs using my BPO's. But none of that comes close to how boring exploration is.
However some of the most fun things I've accomplished in game involved lowsec and 0.0 static complexes. Fighting off pirates and gank gangs coming to steal your loot is a rush, running to the keyholder and trying to pop him as fast as possible because you just saw a pirate gang jump into system is a heart pounding experience that is almost unmached. So of course CCP decided to just eliminate this amazingly fun part of the game.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.10.10 21:19:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Kerfira on 10/10/2007 21:19:30
Originally by: Vitaki
So of course CCP decided to just eliminate this amazingly fun insanely-profitable and farmable part of the game.
Corrected it for you....
It may have been fun, but I wonder how much of the 'fun' was the billions of ISK one could make from them per day. My guess is that's around 99%, and the PvP part was 1%....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2007.10.10 21:47:00 -
[46]
The redistribution of Invention from farmable complexes to Exploration is a huge step in the right direction.
The Exploration aspect of the game still needs improvement, but I am sure we all know that.
At this point we will see a slight increase in T2 prices, till the Exploration is balanced out. Also, as some have suggested the Drone regions do need some love, adding Radar sites to drone regions, would help along on the way of improving Exploration aspects of the game.
This also, as mentioned before by others, gives a greater incentive to the players to start using Exploration in earnest, I know of at least 12 people in game who do exploration on a regular basis in low sec and 0.0, and thats third of the people I know, that is a large number of people to actually use exploration.
Also the situation with the Ancient Technology modules is being addressed as well, that has been quite a pain for a long time, and as such, a great news for many who have those previously "useless" read "too expensive to manufacture" vs T2/Faction items. And hell, I would use them just for the name... well not really, but allot of those items have to be fairly cheap to be used.
Anyway, this is a step in the right direction. I am really glad of it.
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Farrellus Cameron
Sturmgrenadier Inc
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.10 21:48:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Farrellus Cameron on 10/10/2007 21:48:38
You mention agents in the dev blog, are you just referring to getting datacores from RP agents or are you going to have other invention stuff come from agents? I would really like to see missions that lead you to sites where you can get invention items.
Also, can you please make sure there's enough high sec radar sites. I know valuable stuff is supposed to be in low sec and 0.0, but considering the demand for decryptors there needs to be a pretty solid supply of them flowing in. Otherwise prices are going to go out of control.
Also, don't forget that Strip Miners have two invention variants too.
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Marky Amarr
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Posted - 2007.10.10 22:30:00 -
[48]
Invention is still pants..5 out of 5 jobs failed tonight..and i have the skills for the job at 5 and using items. At least bring back the lottery so more bpo's mean more items..means lower prices. I have 12 mil sp's in science and invention just dont seem worth it..i make much more isk making t1 cruisers tbh
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Mordru Maligante
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Posted - 2007.10.10 22:51:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Mordru Maligante on 10/10/2007 22:51:53
Thank you very much CCP for the insight and following clarifications. I wish more threads were as civil and informational as this one. )
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.10 22:58:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Vitaki on 10/10/2007 23:05:07
Originally by: Jinx Barker
At this point we will see a slight increase in T2 prices, till the Exploration is balanced out. Also, as some have suggested the Drone regions do need some love, adding Radar sites to drone regions, would help along on the way of improving Exploration aspects of the game.
You are greatly oversimplifying this. What will happen is prices will rise on cosmos invention items, margins will become slimmer and people will start to quit doing ship invention, prices will then go up slightly and all the profit will go back to the BPO holders. Smaller ships that would previously be inventable will loose thier profit margins entirely, like sabres, and those may go up in price dramatically, rather then starting to fall to a sub 25m price point.
All of this will lead to many less people doing invention, and thats not good.
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.10 23:01:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 10/10/2007 21:19:30
Originally by: Vitaki
So of course CCP decided to just eliminate this amazingly fun insanely-profitable and farmable part of the game.
Corrected it for you....
It may have been fun, but I wonder how much of the 'fun' was the billions of ISK one could make from them per day. My guess is that's around 99%, and the PvP part was 1%....
Did you ever even bother doing the 3/10 plexes? They were awesome. In wartime one of the first stategic objectives was to begin taking complexes, sometimes they were farmed sure, but many many many times they were a focal point of conflict and removing that was a mistake. Just because a lot of people have an idealized vision that they easily bring in billions per day.
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Gestation
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Posted - 2007.10.10 23:29:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Gestation on 10/10/2007 23:29:19
Invention just has too many variables to be managed effectively (by both players using it and devs attempting to 'fix' it), imho.
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Arzal
Caldari
Union Aerospace Corporation
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Posted - 2007.10.11 00:16:00 -
[53]
hmm, I can understand why these hacking sites are being moved, you can earn too much from them, but on the other hand it makes sence as there is such a high demand for these decoders and thats why you can make so much from them, If they are removed a HUGE ammount of invention items will be then be in more demmand, which slows down invention, so drives the prices up again... and theres me thinking invention was meant to decrease the price of T2 ships...
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scorp3
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Posted - 2007.10.11 00:56:00 -
[54]
Have you guys at CCP looked at the price increase of the items that were in the static complexes that you have done away with.....Im sure some people made a lot of iskies from them but by doing away with them you have made the items higher priced and harder for the newer players and some of the older ones to afford these items...And now I see that your going to drive up the prices of invention which will result in higher prices for T2 items...Way to go CCP !!!!
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2007.10.11 01:03:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Arzal
...If they are removed a HUGE ammount of invention items will be then be in more demmand, which slows down invention, so drives the prices up again...
The huge difference being that many many more people can now reap the benefits of those increased prices rather than just a select group that farms the handful of complexes where they spawn. When one person is making all the money and there is no competetion it's a bad thing. When people are fighting to sell their items it's a good thing. Honestly I can't possibly imagine why they made the skills only drop in COSMOS in the first place. It's such an obvious formula for exploitation.
Taxman III: Attack of the Blob
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
FSK23
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Posted - 2007.10.11 01:36:00 -
[56]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Relax, some things we cannot answer straight away :), there are no plans to publish the formula or show the effects.
No need to.
After 27 failures in a row the effects are quite visible and the formula easily guessible
But thanks for the update of maybe not needing the science skills to 5 for t2 production. Although it did add a nice flavour of 'serious commitment'. *off to change skill*
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[17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Gridwalker
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Posted - 2007.10.11 02:53:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Gestation
Edited by: Gestation on 10/10/2007 23:29:19
Invention just has too many variables to be managed effectively (by both players using it and devs attempting to 'fix' it), imho.
I disagree with this statement. There is only one variable with invention that really matters, and that is the number of runs you can get per tech2 BPC. When you do an invention job with a 1500 run BPC and get a 10 run BPC in return, there is no place to absorb the cost of datacores and failures.
By adjusting this ONE variable, the developers can make invention as profitable or unprofitable as they want. With the current values so low, even an 80% success rate is unprofitable on most items. Quite a few items are unprofitable even if you have 100% success rate. Even if datacore prices are through the floor, many items simply won't be profitable to invent. Ever. This is particularly true when we have to compete with BPO holders and builders too daft to realize their datacores--even if gotten from their agent--hold a value.
Decryptors never even enter into the equation. The odds of what you want being available is usually pretty low, and when they are available, all they do is add another extreme expense that you probably can't absorb because of the low number of runs. If this change to the COSMOS complexes makes decryptors triple in price, it won't matter, because in most cases they are already too expensive to be worthwhile.
-Grid
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murder one
Gallente
Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.11 05:29:00 -
[58]
What about inventing faction ships?
Navy Megathrons? Federate Issue Megas?
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now?
[07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
Fleet Combat Ships |
Kaid Tallinu
Gallente
SHAPE
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Posted - 2007.10.11 07:53:00 -
[59]
To those who think this will increase the price of decryptors, I can't see it will be any worse than the current situation where a minority of players have a monopoly and can effectively charge whatever they like.
For example: about a month ago, War Strategon cost 25mil. The cost today? 47mil. I can't see any reason for that other than blatant profiteering.
Opening this market up to more players can only be a good thing, just as invention broke the stranglehold of the T2 BPO owners.
Discuss 
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Iris Lyania
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Posted - 2007.10.11 08:54:00 -
[60]
Damn !!! Don't remove the hacking containers from the plexes. Instead make more decryptors available via exploration or change the drop-rates for them in the plexes. Some month ago everything was fine with them, installation guides for example were at 5 mills on market and there were more then currently used by invention. Then CCP Oveur showed up in the COSMOS plex and thought "Hey, we need to decrease the drop-rates for installation guides !!!". 2 weeks later is happened and now prices are at 20+ mills and the plex is farmed even more, because ppl only see the price on the market and have no idea about the drop-rate change. And even more worse, now everyone is complaining about the costs of invention.
Hey that wasn't the problem caused by us, the so called "farmers". CCP caused the dramatic increase in invention costs. And honestly we, "the farmers" worked hard to be able to farm for you. We provided the market with a steady stream of decryptors and skillbooks, and believe me, it was a long way to train the proper skills and find the right fitting for our ships and get the cash for that specific fitting And it's definetly not an easy job. COSMOS-farming is a profession like mission running, exploration, pirating, trading, production and i honestly cant understand why everyone just complains about farming. It's a part of the game, it's a profession. If you cant use a codebreaker, stfu and train hacking. And to CCP: Increase drop-rates, make all decryptors available by exploration, increase the amount of radar sites and well, make radar sites more profitable especially the ones located in high sec. You wont help ppl doing invention by adding decryptors to low sec or 0.0 radar sites, because only a few percentage of them will hit the empire-market, the rest will be used by big alliances and invention will become even more expansive. But hell, dont remove the hacking containers, there is no need to do it. 
Best regards.
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SeismicForce
Clear Horizon Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.11 09:28:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Iris Lyania
Damn !!! Don't remove the hacking containers from the plexes. Instead make more decryptors available via exploration or change the drop-rates for them in the plexes. Some month ago everything was fine with them, installation guides for example were at 5 mills on market and there were more then currently used by invention. Then CCP Oveur showed up in the COSMOS plex and thought "Hey, we need to decrease the drop-rates for installation guides !!!". 2 weeks later is happened and now prices are at 20+ mills and the plex is farmed even more, because ppl only see the price on the market and have no idea about the drop-rate change. And even more worse, now everyone is complaining about the costs of invention.
Hey that wasn't the problem caused by us, the so called "farmers". CCP caused the dramatic increase in invention costs. And honestly we, "the farmers" worked hard to be able to farm for you. We provided the market with a steady stream of decryptors and skillbooks, and believe me, it was a long way to train the proper skills and find the right fitting for our ships and get the cash for that specific fitting And it's definetly not an easy job. COSMOS-farming is a profession like mission running, exploration, pirating, trading, production and i honestly cant understand why everyone just complains about farming. It's a part of the game, it's a profession. If you cant use a codebreaker, stfu and train hacking. And to CCP: Increase drop-rates, make all decryptors available by exploration, increase the amount of radar sites and well, make radar sites more profitable especially the ones located in high sec. You wont help ppl doing invention by adding decryptors to low sec or 0.0 radar sites, because only a few percentage of them will hit the empire-market, the rest will be used by big alliances and invention will become even more expansive. But hell, dont remove the hacking containers, there is no need to do it.
Best regards.
If because of people like you that the change is coming. You sit there all day, blocking the containers so that noone else even has the chance to try and hack them, and then we are forced to buy the items from the market. Is that fair on the rest of us? So in your own words, stfu and train astrometrics and buy a few probes.
Originally by: Allisie
In a recent interview, a dev mentioned that ships and skills cause lag and will be removed in EVE 2.
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Ardent Rellik
Gallente
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2007.10.11 09:28:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Iris Lyania
Damn !!! Don't remove the hacking containers from the plexes. Instead make more decryptors available via exploration or change the drop-rates for them in the plexes. Some month ago everything was fine with them, installation guides for example were at 5 mills on market and there were more then currently used by invention. Then CCP Oveur showed up in the COSMOS plex and thought "Hey, we need to decrease the drop-rates for installation guides !!!". 2 weeks later is happened and now prices are at 20+ mills and the plex is farmed even more, because ppl only see the price on the market and have no idea about the drop-rate change. And even more worse, now everyone is complaining about the costs of invention.
Hey that wasn't the problem caused by us, the so called "farmers". CCP caused the dramatic increase in invention costs. And honestly we, "the farmers" worked hard to be able to farm for you. We provided the market with a steady stream of decryptors and skillbooks, and believe me, it was a long way to train the proper skills and find the right fitting for our ships and get the cash for that specific fitting And it's definetly not an easy job. COSMOS-farming is a profession like mission running, exploration, pirating, trading, production and i honestly cant understand why everyone just complains about farming. It's a part of the game, it's a profession. If you cant use a codebreaker, stfu and train hacking. And to CCP: Increase drop-rates, make all decryptors available by exploration, increase the amount of radar sites and well, make radar sites more profitable especially the ones located in high sec. You wont help ppl doing invention by adding decryptors to low sec or 0.0 radar sites, because only a few percentage of them will hit the empire-market, the rest will be used by big alliances and invention will become even more expansive. But hell, dont remove the hacking containers, there is no need to do it.
Best regards.
Same whine was used by T2 bpo owners when they lost the monopoly on production. So, I am sure you whined about T2 bpos, and the greedy owners. Guess what, now everyone has a chance to get the stuff, and not just "you, farmers." So, it is your turn the other cheek.
I could never get even close to the cans in Deltole, because of people like you, I was not able to do anything, and I have all skills trained.
Now, at least, I stand a chance of profiting, even a little, where people like you were profiting allot at the expense of many.
This is an improvement, where just a few making billions, now many will be able to have opportunities, even if earning a little less.
So stop whining, and as everyone told t2 bpo holders when many of the smaller manufacturers went broke, adapt or die!
So i tell all the NPC corping, decryptor farming lot, adapt, or die, does not matter to me.
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Andrachim Tar'nar
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.10.11 10:09:00 -
[63]
Exploration has to be seriously buffed and I hope that this is a step into that direction.
And while you are at it, please improve the T2 salvage drops from ArchSal sites, so we can finally produce some T2 rigs without having to charge 200-700 mil for one. I mean, how much will T3 rigs cost, having the current scarcity of T2 salvage in mind?
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Arzal
Caldari
Union Aerospace Corporation
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Posted - 2007.10.11 10:19:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Arzal on 11/10/2007 10:18:54
ok, how about keeping the complex's in the cosmos areas, BUT making them exploration plexes, so then you have to probe them before use :p
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2007.10.11 10:42:00 -
[65]
I only hope that the drop rate in the new radar plexes is gonna be suffiecient to bring down the price of books and dycryptors and not send them even more skyward than at present.
This wont fix invention either way.
Invention came pre-nerfed to protect the Dev's Beta tester buddies !
You think I'm cynical ? how else can you explain "negative" me ffs.
You wanna fix invention rip out all the negative me code and make the dycryptors give good me instead.
Inventors allready have to contend with the exta costs of dycryptors and datacores and bpc and invention job costs.
The extra 30-40% materials we require to build comps compared to BPO holders is just the final nail in the coffin for many item types and makes them completely unprofitable for invention.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2007.10.11 10:46:00 -
[66]
oh and BTW for any inventors out there
The base rate for ship invention seems to be 20% the best I can tell from experimental evidence.
This seems to be born out by the "chanceOfDuplication" field in the datadump , but that could just be coincidence.
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Ardent Rellik
Gallente
MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES
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Posted - 2007.10.11 10:59:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Dav Varan
Invention came pre-nerfed to protect the Dev's Beta tester buddies !
Dude, I mean, shoot man, come on, this is just a bloody game. Lighten up on the conspiracy theories and the tinfoil man.
And, I agree with the the beginning of your post that we can only hope the radar sites will improve the distribution.
But, the tinfoilhattery man? We already have enough of it.
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Uni Zueto
Amarr
Nakama
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Posted - 2007.10.11 12:04:00 -
[68]
Being a buyer of COSMOS drops and manufacturer of the COSMOS modules I know these markets pretty intimately.
As it stands now most of the static plexes are worked 23/7 and most every hacking container in Deltole and Friggi are looked at and near 100% of the items spawning are claimed and used or sold. The Araz plexes aren't farmed nearly as well as needed mostly because they are 20+ jumps from Caldari space.
Now if the numbers of spawning items under the new system is identical to the current possible spawns and these are spread out across exploration sites waiting to be found then it is certain that the claiming rate under the new system will drop well under 100% claimed and prices will sky rocket. If the total number of hacking containers available to find in RADAR sites is twice or three times greater than the current number of fixed containers in the COSMOS plexes then prices might stay the same or drop given that the items will now be out of farmer monopoly and available in a distributed fashion. With pilots able to explore where they live and not having to head 20 jumps to a COSMOS plex the availability of these drops will get more evenly distributed and not only found in Jita causing a pressure upwards on the price due to lack of selling competition. The number of variables to look at here is high and predicting the exact future of the prices is hard. It really depends very heavily on how many RADAR sites show up and if there is a serious movement among the pilot community to encourage more exploring.
If RADAR sites show up as extensions to regular missions then we could easily see a vast increase in the drops of invention items as regular mission runners are drawn into hacking their bonus/escalation rooms. This would be the best stepping stone from the thousands of missions runners to be able to branch into exploring as they get introduced to hacking and exploring skills in their bonus rooms.
As for the COSMOS modules, they mostly fall into similar usefulness as the named meta 3 or 4 modules and should price in about that range but are so expensive to build because of the pricing of the components being used in invention and in some cases for increasing faction standing. For example, the Guristas Light Weapon Console should be about 20k isk so that building the 150mm Musket would cast under 1 million ISK but since the Guristas Light Weapon Console is needed to raise standings with Ishukune they are selling for 6m isk or more. It's ridiculous to spend 12m on a module worth about 1.5m isk. I have a few hundred of these BPC's I'd love to build and there are thousands and thousands of them rotting in pilots hangers not being built because it's not worth it. I hope a fair compromise on these BPC's can be found.
The COSMOS constellations are my favorite areas for the very well done graphics and interesting storylines and I would love to see several more COSMOS areas be written and placed. There are never enough ISD events and the COSMOS are more liked fixed events you can always be sure to find and take part in. If the Ammatar are going to revolt and rejoin their Minmatar Republic brothers and sisters that would make one fine extra COSMOS complex right there. Time portals back through wormholes to the time of the Caldari migration or the Amarr's war with the Jove would also make nice new COSMOS plexes...
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
FSK23
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Posted - 2007.10.11 12:12:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Uni Zueto
[...] not only found in Jita causing a pressure upwards on the price due to lack of selling competition.[...]
Care to elaborate the current selling competition with nearly all of them in the hands of a select few farmers?
I fail to see how it can get less competition.
--
[17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Uni Zueto
Amarr
Nakama
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Posted - 2007.10.11 12:23:00 -
[70]
There is something suspicious I'd like to point out: This blog was released on October 10th but on October 3rd 1034 Tuning Instructions were bought in the Forge Region and another 1347 Tuning Instructions on October 5th. Those are the two largest purchases of Tuning Instructions ever in their history. How did these buyers know what the developers were planning a week before they released their blog?
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
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Uni Zueto
Amarr
Nakama
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Posted - 2007.10.11 12:28:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Uni Zueto on 11/10/2007 12:36:22
Originally by: El'essar Viocragh
Originally by: Uni Zueto
[...] not only found in Jita causing a pressure upwards on the price due to lack of selling competition.[...]
Care to elaborate the current selling competition with nearly all of them in the hands of a select few farmers?
I fail to see how it can get less competition.
Less competition because they aren't all being sold in Jita 4-4. All the farmers are steadily forcing each other down by selling in the same exact station. This happens on many items in Jita causing it to have some of the lowest prices in the Universe on most all T2 modules and many other named modules and some other items. If the decryptors are found and sold all in different regions then the regional prices can float higher with less point of sale competition. Another upward force will be these spread out smaller volumes can be preyed upon by saavy trade sharks who buy the whole stock and triple the price (see Dark Shakiri's headline news).
Of course Great Bargains can also be found from lack of information and poorly educated sellers who compete with the lowest price even though it's 11 jumps away although their product is highly valued in the system they are selling in. Also those bargains listed for sale at a low price in a backwater system.
If you can't understand this then get an Economics 101 book please.
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
Iris Lyania
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Posted - 2007.10.11 12:30:00 -
[72]
Originally by: SeismicForce
If because of people like you that the change is coming. You sit there all day, blocking the containers so that noone else even has the chance to try and hack them, and then we are forced to buy the items from the market. Is that fair on the rest of us? So in your own words, stfu and train astrometrics and buy a few probes.
Lol mate, i explored alot, high sec, low sec and 0.0. The only places worth the time i spend for scanning is 0.0. Empire just **** like hell. You scan 1 hour and all you get is a low level decryptor worth 300k, hurray, hurray. Thats what i call a good buisness. Exploration definetly needs a change.
And honestly COSMOS farming has nothing to do with a monopoly. Everyone can do it and get a piece of the cake, it's far away of being not fair. All you need to do is train hacking to 5 and step into a decent tank and fit a AB to be fast. True Deltole is a very hard place and every tower there is blocked by ppl. But Friggi for example is totally different, the Amarr and Minmatar plexes as well, most of the time you are alone there or maybe 1 other guy is in the site hacking as well. So you have a very fair chance of getting good stuff out of the plex. If you just went to Deltole, well it's your problem. You should maybe open your eyes and search for other opportunities. Deltole has the problem that it's the only hacking plex in Gallente space, while all other races have 2 of them. And all the other plexes are completely different to Deltole and everyone there has a fair chance. So stop whining.
Best regards.
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Uni Zueto
Amarr
Nakama
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Posted - 2007.10.11 12:40:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Uni Zueto on 11/10/2007 12:42:14
Originally by: Iris Lyania
And honestly COSMOS farming has nothing to do with a monopoly. Everyone can do it and get a piece of the cake, it's far away of being not fair. All you need to do is train hacking to 5 and step into a decent tank and fit a AB to be fast.
Completely untrue...
There are methods for the best hackers to deny any other pilot getting a take. I can introduce you to two of the hackers who might let you in on the trick. But believe me if he doesn't want you to have ANYTHING from ANY of the cans in Friggi then you won't get anything.
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
Iris Lyania
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Posted - 2007.10.11 12:45:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Uni Zueto
Completely untrue...
There are methods for the best hackers to deny any other pilot getting a take. I can introduce you to two of the hackers who might let you in on the trick. But believe me if he doesn't want you to have ANYTHING from ANY of the cans in Friggi then you won't get anything.
No thanks Uni, i'm doing fine and dont need hints.  I prefer just to use a t2 rig, imps, the skill at lvl5 and a clock. Thats all i need.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2007.10.11 12:47:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Uni Zueto
How did these buyers know what the developers were planning a week before they released their blog?
Observe the date
As for the blog. Good changes, especially directed invention.
As for the replies: how exactly can someone prevent you from farming a complex? Especially since this said complex has NO keys.
The farmers have exactly the same abilities as you. Except one thing: they have more experience and are better organized. So there is only one thing preventing you from camping the can and getting the decryptor before the farmer does: your very own stupidty.
Technically, the ISK/h of COSMOS complexes should balance itself out because each can would have 10 people fighting over the spawned decryptor up to the point where camping the can would yield medicore rewards because you only get a fraction of the drops.
Changing it to exploration is a decent idea anyway, because EVE isnt about camping cans and dragging the content to cargo as fast as possible.
But its still your fault that the farmers got rich and you didnt.
Im not sure exploration will provide a lot of player interaction though, unlike all the static complexes in high sec. The race to get the 3/10 was indeed one of the most exiting activities in eve. At least ten times more fun then afk-grinding L4 missions in undestroyable CNRs. Im not too familiar with 0.0 exploration, but how dangerous is it exactly to scan in a cov-ops?
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Iris Lyania
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Posted - 2007.10.11 12:58:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
The farmers have exactly the same abilities as you. Except one thing: they have more experience and are better organized. So there is only one thing preventing you from camping the can and getting the decryptor before the farmer does: your very own stupidty.
Technically, the ISK/h of COSMOS complexes should balance itself out because each can would have 10 people fighting over the spawned decryptor up to the point where camping the can would yield medicore rewards because you only get a fraction of the drops.
Absolutely correct. A lot of people are whining when they didn't get stuff from the towers. All they need to do is study the spawn-mechanics and train and improve their abilities. Then they have the same chance like the so called "farmers". Hacking is a competition, the best hacker with the best knowledge about the plex and the spawn-mechanics wins. Thats it. And well yes there is a trick . . . . . but that trick was easy to find out .
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Uni Zueto
Amarr
Nakama
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Posted - 2007.10.11 13:18:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Iris Lyania
Absolutely correct. A lot of people are whining when they didn't get stuff from the towers. All they need to do is study the spawn-mechanics and train and improve their abilities. Then they have the same chance like the so called "farmers". Hacking is a competition, the best hacker with the best knowledge about the plex and the spawn-mechanics wins. Thats it. And well yes there is a trick . . . . . but that trick was easy to find out .
Being able to keep the entire complexes hacking containers open in 40+ windows on your client so you can see where the next spawn pops up and race to it should be considered a bug IMO. After you move away from the can more than 1500m it's window should automatically close. But since it doesn't, crazy obsessive farmers can lag down Friggi and assure that they are the only ones getting any goods. Of course that's a monopoly shared by only a few hackers with the fastest bandwidths and use of what I consider an exploit and I am glad to see it end.
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
Uni Zueto
Amarr
Nakama
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Posted - 2007.10.11 13:32:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Uni Zueto on 11/10/2007 13:33:46
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 11/10/2007 13:16:57
Originally by: Uni Zueto
How did these buyers know what the developers were planning a week before they released their blog?
Observe the date
That patch was released on the 4th. The first 1034 decryptors were purchased on the 3rd before that Sisi patch.
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
Zarch AlDain
The Establishment
Establishment
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Posted - 2007.10.11 13:46:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Uni Zueto
Edited by: Uni Zueto on 11/10/2007 13:33:46
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 11/10/2007 13:16:57
Originally by: Uni Zueto
How did these buyers know what the developers were planning a week before they released their blog?
Observe the date
That patch was released on the 4th. The first 1034 decryptors were purchased on the 3rd before that Sisi patch.
The fact that tech 2 battleships and a load of other new tech 2 ships were coming in the next patch was known before then.
Zarch AlDain
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Iris Lyania
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Posted - 2007.10.11 13:52:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Uni Zueto
Being able to keep the entire complexes hacking containers open in 40+ windows on your client so you can see where the next spawn pops up and race to it should be considered a bug IMO. After you move away from the can more than 1500m it's window should automatically close. But since it doesn't, crazy obsessive farmers can lag down Friggi and assure that they are the only ones getting any goods. Of course that's a monopoly shared by only a few hackers with the fastest bandwidths who can afford to run 5 computers at once with 5 separate accounts planting 10 alts at different spots around the hacking containers using the open-all-container-windows exploit. This precludes people with single accounts and single computers from successfully competing and not in alignment with CCP's goal of increasing their player base. By allowing exploration for these items the more casual players can actually do invention and make some money.
I am glad to see these plexes change.
Hmmmm sry Uni, i only use one account and one computer and i'm doing fine. And i never observed something like that going on in Friggi. I saw it in Deltole and yes it is a problem. And i have no problem with the redistribution of decryptors to exploration sites. I just want CCP to keep the possibility to hack in COSMOS plexes as well. Because it grants a steady flow of decryptors to the market, which cant be achieved by exploration only, especially if the +9 decryptors can be only found in 0.0 for example. They have to be found in Empire as well, otherwise the invention prices will explode even more and then 0.0 alliances will have the monopoly. It wouldn't change something. The problem is that there are simply too less decryptors to be found in the game ATM. 100% of the +9 decryptors from the COSMOS sites hit the market, the problem is the drop rate is too low, that is why the prices are so high.
Best regards.
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Uni Zueto
Amarr
Nakama
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Posted - 2007.10.11 14:22:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Uni Zueto on 11/10/2007 14:24:49
Originally by: Iris Lyania
100% of the +9 decryptors from the COSMOS sites hit the market, the problem is the drop rate is too low, that is why the prices are so high.
I just don't understand why people say prices are high. T2 prices are up to 300% lower than they were a year ago. There are a few items which have stayed steady. The Command Ships and the Stealth Bombers and a few rarer ammos and modules that are rarely used like the EM Armor Hardener. This I assume is from the lack of inventors of these items not the prices of the decryptors. The command ships high failure rates from lack of base item adder would account for it's price and the same for the upcoming T2 BS's. The Stealth Bombers went through a major revamp making them much more in demand thus overcoming the normal T2 deflation seen elsewhere.
I'm perfectly comfortable with the much lower prices on the majority of T2 items and don't see these high prices in the previous
complaints.
EDIT: BTW, the most prodigious hackers in Friggi who could rarely be bested have moved onto other pursuits.
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.11 14:34:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 11/10/2007 14:36:54
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky
The new output tab show up in all windows (manufacturing, copying and so on).
The new ship types (heavy interdictors) aren't associated with normal factories as can be seen here.
Also, any particular reason why Heavy Interdictors need Cruiser Construction 5 when no other cruiser sized ships do?
none of that stuff is ready for testing yet, just the invention part has already been completed for testing, which you have already experimented with. The assembly lines have been internally updated (something we have to do with any new ship class additions).
Balancing is ongoing now internally still but expect the cruiser construction to drop to level 4 and likewise with the T2 battleship science skill manufacturing requirements next week when the science and industry part of the new ships will be ready for public testing.
I just hope Dictors and CBC's will remain respective lvl 5's.
EDIT:
And COSMOS farming? Hell yes. Bye bye "i want isk AFK in hisec". Time to work for money.
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Aaron Min
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.11 16:08:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Aaron Min on 11/10/2007 16:09:49
Honestly I am a little upset by this. Only one of the the many existing decyptors is even worth using, and its cost is already way too high. With the new ships coming out prices on decyptors are just going to go up. Decyptors should be an abundant resources, seed the market with the current decyptors, call those base level decyptors, then go make some new decyptors that are uber and put those in the exploration sites. Base decyptors should be cheap and give you marginal success rates, which is what the current decyptors do(well the only one that people really want to use anyways). Uber decyptors then can be rare and extremely useful. Increasing success rate by 50-80% and having + pe and me, and further run multipliers. This is especially true with the release of new ships, for which no bpos will be given.
Originally by: Andrachim Tar'nar
Exploration has to be seriously buffed and I hope that this is a step into that direction.
And while you are at it, please improve the T2 salvage drops from ArchSal sites, so we can finally produce some T2 rigs without having to charge 200-700 mil for one. I mean, how much will T3 rigs cost, having the current scarcity of T2 salvage in mind?
solution to this is to add bpos that allow the production of t2 components from t1 components I mean really a t2 components is a less damaged version of the t1 component isn't it? in which case it makes sense that given enough damage components you could combine them into an undamage version.
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Horus Hunter
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Posted - 2007.10.11 16:38:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Uni Zueto
Being a buyer of COSMOS drops and manufacturer of the COSMOS modules I know these markets pretty intimately. .
Holy ****, someone else with half a brain made a post! I hope they listen to you.
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.11 16:56:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Vitaki on 11/10/2007 16:56:16
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
I just hope Dictors and CBC's will remain respective lvl 5's.
EDIT:
And COSMOS farming? Hell yes. Bye bye "i want isk AFK in hisec". Time to work for money.
Great thanks for making such an informative post backed by evidence and explanations.
It's obvious you have never done any worthwhile invention or even really tried to do cosmos hacking. Do you even have any of the relative skills trained to a high level? Hacking, encryption methods, anything?
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.11 17:01:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Aaron Min
Edited by: Aaron Min on 11/10/2007 16:09:49
Honestly I am a little upset by this. Only one of the the many existing decyptors is even worth using, and its cost is already way too high. With the new ships coming out prices on decyptors are just going to go up. Decyptors should be an abundant resources, seed the market with the current decyptors, call those base level decyptors, then go make some new decyptors that are uber and put those in the exploration sites. Base decyptors should be cheap and give you marginal success rates, which is what the current decyptors do(well the only one that people really want to use anyways). Uber decyptors then can be rare and extremely useful. Increasing success rate by 50-80% and having + pe and me, and further run multipliers. This is especially true with the release of new ships, for which no bpos will be given.
This all relates back to how flawed invention is. Invention cost on many items is far higher than the saleable price of the item. This is because of related price increases. Just look at the costs of some of the modules that require Mechanical Engineering, because this datacore is so expensive, because of ship invention, then most of the mods that require it are completely unprofitable.
This is also what stops people from inventing command ships, dictors, inties etc.. Because of the available profit from Hacs and Hulks the invention costs are too high.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2007.10.11 19:27:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Vitaki
It's obvious you have never done any worthwhile invention or even really tried to do cosmos hacking. Do you even have any of the relative skills trained to a high level? Hacking, encryption methods, anything?
I'm curious.. Have you ever done any worthwhile exploration? In lowsec or 0.0??.. It's time consuming, boring, aggravating, and entails work. But with the change, it's now available to everyone.
Alot of farmers seem to be unhappy about this change. That's unfortunate. I know how you feel. I was very unhappy for many months when I learned that the only place I could get an Encryption skill was from a COSMOS mission. And that the COSMOS missions are all in hi-sec. That made me sad.
But now it seems that I can get those skillbooks. I can now get those decryptors. I am happy now. If you are sad and think that you can't get invention parts anymore, don't worry. I will get them for you. Plenty of other explorers out there will get them as well. Then we will compete to sell our items in Jita undercutting each other continuously as the price continues to plummet. It's this really nifty thing that I like to call a "free market".
Taxman III: Attack of the Blob
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Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2007.10.11 19:32:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Uni Zueto
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Originally by: Uni Zueto
How did these buyers know what the developers were planning a week before they released their blog?
Observe the date
That patch was released on the 4th. The first 1034 decryptors were purchased on the 3rd before that Sisi patch.
Ok, if I may clarify this particular "Dev Conspiracy" - the knowledge that T2 Battleships were coming out SOON was available to ALL who participated in the Closed Beta test for Mac and Linux clients.
It was fairly quiet at the beginning, since I was one of the first people to log into the Beta Server, and there were hardly 2 other guys on at the time. Eventually more people came on to the server, explored, and found the near-finished models of the T2 Battleships.
The information was leaked, first in private circles, and then in wider, and wider circles, reaching SHS forums, and then popping onto EVE-O Forums.
Lets put it this way, I am sure that anyone with a decent amount of ISK, some brains, and little luck, would have realized that T2 BS = Decryptor Prices Go Mad.
I went out and bought close to 1 Billion worth of decryptors the minute I realized that. Fact is, what you seeing is the players betting that CCP will stick to the Invention, and will not release the T2 BPOs of those ships, which means that any datacore and decryptor associated with the Invention of those ships was bound to triple or quadruple in price.
So, no conspiracy, just sound financial judgement.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.11 19:40:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Drenan
This is what happens when you let one sub-sphere of an MMO (invention in this case) assume an importance to the economy out of all proportion to the number of players who actually participate in it.
You would have thought that CCP would have followed the Vanguard SOH debacle more closely...and realised that overly complicated and tedious 'crafting' systems will jump up and bite you in the ass eventually.
Time to remember that this game is driven by pew pew first and foremost...and time for some focus on enhanced gameplay rather than on systems that seem to be designed to appeal to a sub-set of a sub-set of hair-shirt wearing former MUD players, like Invention?
In your dreams. Economy, production and invention drive EVE as much if not more than pew pew. Without them you will be pew pewing in some rust bucket frigate brought from NPC producers.
Good changes overall. A clear indication of the success rates would be interesting.
There are some point I found puzzling in the currenst success rate.
In one of the original blogs about invention it was mentioned that for modules and ships with a low number of items with metalevels between 1 and 4 even the metalevel 0 items would give a bonus to invention (an example would be all the ships).
As I wa interested to test it I tried inventing ballistic control systems II with a ballistic control I as a model and without it.
Whit the same skills using a model I get a success rate of 53,3%, whitout the model a success rate of 57,4%, a 4% difference when using a model, but in negative.
Using a Malkut launcher as a model for heavy missile launcher, with the model the success rate is 56%, without 49% (a clear increase of 7% with the model).
This kind of results give me much doubt on the effect of metalevel 0 items.
It would be interesting to do the same test on ship production, but to run the needed number of test to have significant data would be a huge espense and doing that to learn that using ships as model give a negative success modifier would be a self defeating move.
It is possible to know what is the exact effect of metalevel 0 items?
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Drako Krakin
KO Solutions
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Posted - 2007.10.11 19:59:00 -
[90]
Nice changes planned on the actual invention process side of the house. The Output Type option will be a sweet little click.
Seems to me that there may be some potential problems in the decryptor area. I tried to read the blog in the manner in which it was written ū vague. Specifically this caught my attention. "ąremove the containers that drop the invention materials in some complexes". Please notice the bold word ōsomeö. It is my hope that this means that some of the COSMOS complexes will retain at least a few of the decryptor cans.
Let me explain why I feel it is important to in the very least start the transition to decryptor exploration in this manner.
- First and most importantly, the inventers desire an uninterrupted decryptor supply and that is not going to happen if you shut it off one day and switch it immediately to exploration. There has to be a transition period in which both complexes and exploration provide the decryptor. This needs to be at least a week to insure things are working. Once exploration with decryptors is up and running then the decryptors can be removed from the complexes.
- Second, currently the decryptors that drop in exploration (I never found one) are very few and very rare. This makes me believe this is a new bit that will have to be coded into the system. Well, MurphyĘs Law, in all likelyhood when it kicks off they are either going to drop like rain in every radar site or they are going to be the random chance that never happens. My bet is the second option initially.
- Third, the people that currently provide these decryptors to the vast majority of inventors do so because they have the skill to do it efficiently. These people will have to now start in exploration. As a side note: I know a great many of these people and they have pretty impressive exploration skills as well, so it will not be too difficult. It will only require the purchase of a few more ships to position in other areas. Basically, it no more than a logistics reorganization of their operations.
- Fourth and I will stop here. 100% of the decryptors found in Caldari COSMOS are used. Many go out via the market and many are hacked and used by the actual inventor. That means that if this is going to transition to exploration, then they need to dramatically increase the numbers. Not as CCP Chronotis stated ōąsame amount items will be distributed by explorationąö Because many of these sites will not be found.
Personally I think the lowest level decryptors need to remain in the complexes they are currently in. All the higher level ones to be found only in exploration. At least this will keep invention alive until decryptor exploration is proven effective.
Iris you are right: Deltole is the pit of hell as far as impolite and cuthroat farming. But like you said the other 3 regions are relatively tame and polite to the causal hacker.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.11 20:19:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Vitaki
Edited by: Vitaki on 11/10/2007 16:56:16
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
I just hope Dictors and CBC's will remain respective lvl 5's.
EDIT:
And COSMOS farming? Hell yes. Bye bye "i want isk AFK in hisec". Time to work for money.
Great thanks for making such an informative post backed by evidence and explanations.
It's obvious you have never done any worthwhile invention or even really tried to do cosmos hacking. Do you even have any of the relative skills trained to a high level? Hacking, encryption methods, anything?
All hackign etc lvl4 times 2 accounts
Also 10 mil science including cosmos items manufacturing skills.
So its abt time for you to stfu. Did cosmos WAY before it became farmer paradise, and it was pretty crap experience later on. If you want invention stuff then explore. Leave cosmos areas for cosmos stuff only.
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.11 20:36:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
Originally by: Vitaki
But now it seems that I can get those skillbooks. I can now get those decryptors. I am happy now. If you are sad and think that you can't get invention parts anymore, don't worry. I will get them for you. Plenty of other explorers out there will get them as well. Then we will compete to sell our items in Jita undercutting each other continuously as the price continues to plummet. It's this really nifty thing that I like to call a "free market".
What, no you won't get them for me. You can't supply it in anywhere near the numbers that I need. Neither can all the other people who do scanning imho. It sucks and it's boring so there is a proportionatly smaller amount of people willing to do it. What was the price increase of deadspace items when they removed the complexes 100% 500% 1000%? What will the price increase be if they don't somehow increase the drop rates when they switch these complexes over? Who gets screwed?
You like exploration and apparently hate trying to outdo the farmers so you are unwilling to go play the bump game for the insane profits you can realize in the existing complexes so instead you go and do exploration. You will realize gains because of this change, but at the expense of the inventors, and possibly at the expense of the rest of the eve player base. I think they should just move the plexes into lowsec.
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.11 20:39:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Vitaki
Edited by: Vitaki on 11/10/2007 16:56:16
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
I just hope Dictors and CBC's will remain respective lvl 5's.
EDIT:
And COSMOS farming? Hell yes. Bye bye "i want isk AFK in hisec". Time to work for money.
Great thanks for making such an informative post backed by evidence and explanations.
It's obvious you have never done any worthwhile invention or even really tried to do cosmos hacking. Do you even have any of the relative skills trained to a high level? Hacking, encryption methods, anything?
All hackign etc lvl4 times 2 accounts
Also 10 mil science including cosmos items manufacturing skills.
So its abt time for you to stfu. Did cosmos WAY before it became farmer paradise, and it was pretty crap experience later on. If you want invention stuff then explore. Leave cosmos areas for cosmos stuff only.
Great, thats is awesome. I'm glad to have an informed discussion with people who like to run complexes and do hacking. Now can you please make a more informed post and toss out some reasons other than "Those stupid farmers were better than me and took my money!".
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.11 20:51:00 -
[94]
I dont have problems with farmers making iskies (except for Ebay reasons) BUT: farmers also block my way of enjoing game by blocking whole cosmos bpc part of the game. Im building those components and by having soem****s sittng 24/7 i cant hack and produce em myself. Buying components is out of question - otherwise i could buy ready mod.
So pretty much: they spoil my gaming experience, so its good their experience gets a shaft.
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.11 20:54:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
In your dreams. Economy, production and invention drive EVE as much if not more than pew pew. Without them you will be pew pewing in some rust bucket frigate brought from NPC producers.
In fact you are understating the issue. NPC producers only supply frigates I think. Everything else is manufactured by players.
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Uni Zueto
Amarr
Nakama
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Posted - 2007.10.11 21:35:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Vitaki
This is also what stops people from inventing command ships, dictors, inties etc.. Because of the available profit from Hacs and Hulks the invention costs are too high.
Hulks used to cost 580 million isk before invention so if the profit margins from inventing them have dried up then blame the sheer number of inventors working to get a hulk. Same with inventing Expanded Cargo II they were 90 million isk a piece before invention. I wouldn't touch that market except to make for my own use. There's too many people inventing EC II's and too many BPO holders.
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
Uni Zueto
Amarr
Nakama
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Posted - 2007.10.11 21:57:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Uni Zueto on 11/10/2007 22:03:14
Originally by: Jinx Barker
Edited by: Jinx Barker on 11/10/2007 19:38:48
Originally by: Uni Zueto
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Originally by: Uni Zueto
How did these buyers know what the developers were planning a week before they released their blog?
Observe the date
That patch was released on the 4th. The first 1034 decryptors were purchased on the 3rd before that Sisi patch.
Ok, if I may clarify this particular "Dev Conspiracy" - the knowledge that T2 Battleships were coming out SOON was available to ALL who participated in the Closed Beta test for Mac and Linux clients.
It was fairly quiet at the beginning, since I was one of the first people to log into the Beta Server, and there were hardly 2 other guys on at the time. Eventually more people came on to the server, explored, and found the near-finished models of the T2 Battleships.
The information was leaked, first in private circles, and then in wider, and wider circles, reaching SHS forums, and then popping onto EVE-O Forums.
Lets put it this way, I am sure that anyone with a decent amount of ISK, some brains, and little luck, would have realized that T2 BS = Decryptor Prices Go Mad.
So you're saying it's purely on the speculation of T2 BS invention that the largest purchases in Eve history of decryptors took place on the 3rd through the 5th. It's possible but I still suspect that there was prior knowledge of the change in decryptor drops before the 4th.
I too have seen speculation prior to patches from information gleaned on the beta server but this is the most suspicious one I've seen. And I've been through the EC 1 BPO hanger switch, the named reaction control meta changes, and several others each time the timetable was explainable.
Having said that how many MMO's allow this much prior knowledge of a new patch available to a very small number of players who make huge gains off of knowledge that could easily have been made public. The log in news could have had weekly links to the upcoming T2 ships 3 weeks ago advertising the pride CCP has in it's new content to all the players. But instead we have to spend many many more hours away from our R/L digging around on the beta servers.
Ah whatever, gratz to you and your investigating skills.
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2007.10.11 23:38:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Uni Zueto
..Stuff..
I am saying speculation started as a direct result of the T2 BS news. Primarily translated into Datacore market first. Well, that is where it should have gone, because it requires 32 DC to invent.
Since we are all aware that there could be unsuccessful strings, the more Datacores you got, the cheaper they are, the greater margin will be achieved in the long run, especially if you want to have enough to run a good number of jobs.
So, I have calculated how many DC I can get from my agents, and then subtracted that from 6,400 (number of Datacores I will need to run 100 Jobs in succession) - and bought what I needed to supplement. In the the last few weeks I was also buying highest quality/Run BPCs I needed for Invention of T2 BS... So now I have enough to run 100 Invention jobs on both T2 BS for Gallente.
Then I thought, well, I am not the only one who will try and cash in on the market for the upcoming T2 BS, so I figured it is a good Idea to stock up on Decryptors of the best quality I could find, for the best price.
So, I went out and bought as many Gallente Decryptors as I could, and I looked for best prices, I am sure I was not the only one doing it, this would mean that hundreds of people were doing it, because I am not that sharp really, and if I do it, they do it as well...
That was the beginning, before all hell broke loose with the reallocation of Decryptos from Cosmos to Exploration.
The Reallocation Scare caused the market to go through the roof, and in combination with the upcoming T2 BS release, contributed to the ongoing wild speculation on the markets.
Thats why we all are screaming and yelling that the sky is falling. Its combination of factors that cause this, and it WILL SETTLE DOWN in the first month of the patch. Till then we are in for a wild ride.
Anything and ALL requiered for invention of T2 Ships will skyrocket, this will translate into T2 Markets, I would not be surprised if people at this moment are not buying up ALL cheapo Hacs and Command ships out there, because, believe me, they will go up in price as we get closer to the patch date, and they will gain at least 15% in the first month of the patch, till things settle down a bit.
I actually bought 10 Ishtars at 94 Mill the other day, took me a while to collect them all, but my guess is they will go over 110 in the next few weeks, and in the upcoming month. As will various cheaper command ships and interceptors. Because of greater Demand on of T2 Materials, and the fact that people are hoarding Datacores and Decryptors.
But, we shall see, I am very excited.
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DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
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Posted - 2007.10.11 23:45:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Ardent Rellik
Same whine was used by T2 bpo owners when they lost the monopoly on production. So, I am sure you whined about T2 bpos, and the greedy owners. Guess what, now everyone has a chance to get the stuff, and not just "you, farmers." So, it is your turn the other cheek.
bpo ownership wasnt a Monopoly, it was more like a Icospoly for lack of a better term.
the "greedy" t2 bpo owners are now enjoying people complaning that t2 is still too expensive, and now people say there's not enough profit !!!.....
Moving stuff out of cosmos is probably a good idea in the long term, as it would probably make it easier for them to manage drop rates without players seeing it happening...
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Iris Lyania
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Posted - 2007.10.11 23:57:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Iris Lyania on 12/10/2007 00:02:19
Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff
I was very unhappy for many months when I learned that the only place I could get an Encryption skill was from a COSMOS mission. And that the COSMOS missions are all in hi-sec. That made me sad.
But now it seems that I can get those skillbooks. I can now get those decryptors. I am happy now. If you are sad and think that you can't get invention parts anymore, don't worry. I will get them for you. Plenty of other explorers out there will get them as well. Then we will compete to sell our items in Jita undercutting each other continuously as the price continues to plummet. It's this really nifty thing that I like to call a "free market".
Hmmmm, sry but your knowledge about exploration is insufficient ! You can get skillbooks from exploration sites as well, but not from radars. You should have scanned for magnetos. Quite often you can find 1-2 books per 0.0 magneto site. Too bad you didn't know that and wasted "many month". LOL
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2007.10.12 00:00:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Uni Zueto
So you're saying it's purely on the speculation of T2 BS invention that the largest purchases in Eve history of decryptors took place on the 3rd through the 5th. It's possible but I still suspect that there was prior knowledge of the change in decryptor drops before the 4th.
I too have seen speculation prior to patches from information gleaned on the beta server but this is the most suspicious one I've seen. And I've been through the EC 1 BPO hanger switch, the named reaction control meta changes, and several others each time the timetable was explainable.
Having said that how many MMO's allow this much prior knowledge of a new patch available to a very small number of players who make huge gains off of knowledge that could easily have been made public. The log in news could have had weekly links to the upcoming T2 ships 3 weeks ago advertising the pride CCP has in it's new content to all the players. But instead we have to spend many many more hours away from our R/L digging around on the beta servers.
Ah whatever, gratz to you and your investigating skills.
You really need a tinfoil hat.
Just the knowledge that there will come T2 battleships is enough to start speculation. Since these will only be available through invention and since a lot of people will try to make them when they go live it does not take a genious to figure out it could be smart to start getting these things early.
As for the test server, every mmorpg that are not run by morons will have one. The info is freely available through a ton of posts on this forum, and by going on the test server yourself.
The new t2 ships has been announced a long time ago. Pay attention.
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scorp3
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Posted - 2007.10.12 02:27:00 -
[102]
I dont understand what i keep hearing about Decryptors being in the hands of a few. The Cosmos complexes are open to anyone whos standing is not to low to enter into high sec.space and anyone with the same skills as myself can come in and stand an equal chance of getting the item from the cans. As i see it the hacking was no different than mining other than the fact that it added a form of pvp which made it more exciting and enjoyable. But I also agree that they should be added to exploration and mayby a new complex added to gallente space to ease the craziness that one has.... I have used both of the ones in Caldari space and must say that I have found most of the people to be friendly and helpful to the new people coming in.. It seems that once again im losing somthing about eve that i enjoyed and trained for....At least try and make exploration more enjoyable
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
BROTHER'S WORD
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Posted - 2007.10.12 08:52:00 -
[103]
The prices are fine. Everything is fine. The changes are good. They won't break eve. They'll stop some annoying farmers. You got your isk while you could, now move on.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Uni Zueto
Amarr
Nakama
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Posted - 2007.10.12 11:12:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Esmenet
You really need a tinfoil hat.
Just the knowledge that there will come T2 battleships is enough to start speculation. Since these will only be available through invention and since a lot of people will try to make them when they go live it does not take a genious to figure out it could be smart to start getting these things early.
As for the test server, every mmorpg that are not run by morons will have one. The info is freely available through a ton of posts on this forum, and by going on the test server yourself.
The new t2 ships has been announced a long time ago. Pay attention.
Thanks for your 'kind' words.
But it doesn't change the fact that a great percentage of players hate digging through thousands of forum posts a day especially those players with jobs and family. Those same players would not wish to spend extra time patching and maintaining a beta test client installation. I can only assume you have no children and are a college student without a job or a wife or a girlfriend...
The login news is a great place to announce great new upcoming content for Eve and it's a shame that the Devs aren't posting there.
Jinx's explanation of preparing to run 100 T2 invention attempts at a time went a long way of filling me in on why so many items would be needed ahead of the patch. I don't do invention and so I appreciate your insights, Jinx.
I'll throw my Tinfoil hat on the hook.
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
Uni Zueto
Amarr
Nakama
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Posted - 2007.10.12 11:15:00 -
[105]
Originally by: scorp3
I dont understand what i keep hearing about Decryptors being in the hands of a few. The Cosmos complexes are open to anyone whos standing is not to low to enter into high sec.space and anyone with the same skills as myself can come in and stand an equal chance of getting the item from the cans. As i see it the hacking was no different than mining other than the fact that it added a form of pvp which made it more exciting and enjoyable. But I also agree that they should be added to exploration and mayby a new complex added to gallente space to ease the craziness that one has.... I have used both of the ones in Caldari space and must say that I have found most of the people to be friendly and helpful to the new people coming in.. It seems that once again im losing somthing about eve that i enjoyed and trained for....At least try and make exploration more enjoyable
They don't stand an equal chance when the open-all-cans-move-off-the-grid-and-grab-components-from-1500km-away exploit is used. Drako and others have reported this exploit but CCP has not corrected it in over 6 months.
'May all your ventures be profitable' - Caldari Farewell |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.12 11:26:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 12/10/2007 11:26:17
Uni, for your information, I want to cite this post by Akita
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 19/09/2007 08:54:21
Everybody knows (or at least suspects) that all racial decryptor prices will reach, then surpass current Gallente decryptor prices as soon as Rev 3.0 hits us (with Gallente ones rising even more).
And yes, I mean all decryptors, not just the +9 runs (most runs) and +4 runs (best chance) ones.
So will Mechanical Engineering datacores, and to a much lesser degree Ship datacores.
NOTE: datacores, probably not so hot.
Of course, individual racial decryptors / ship datacores prices will also depend on which new T2 ships will be over or underpowered, but definetely way above Gallente ones nowadays.
___
So don't just stand there quietly upping the ante 0.01 ISK, make the damn market move already in anticipation.
The only issue will be to know WHEN to stop upping the ante, namely where exactly AFTER the patch the prices will settle.
Beat the rush of post-Rev3-laggy markets and feature-hunts, make a killing NOW.
The more of you buy, the faster the prices rise, the faster you can unload for fast profits in favor of those that prefer slower but larger-in-volume profits.
What the heck are you still doing here reading ?
GO PLACE YOUR ORDERS !
Later in the same thread she admitted having brough all teh decryptor she could so she was pushing for a faster increase in price.
As you can see the push to increase prices was there well before october.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2007.10.12 11:30:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Esmenet on 12/10/2007 11:31:25
Originally by: Uni Zueto
Edited by: Uni Zueto on 12/10/2007 11:22:09
But it doesn't change the fact that a great percentage of players hate digging through thousands of forum posts a day especially those players with jobs and family. Those same players would not wish to spend extra time patching and maintaining a beta test client installation. I can only assume you have no children and are probably a college student without a job and most likely hasn't a wife...
You only need about 5 mins pr week to read the information portal. Thats enough. If you got time enough to play eve you got more than enough time to find out this info. No other mmorpg is so easy to keep up with for a casual player, as so much can be done while you are offline.
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Zachstar
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Posted - 2007.10.12 11:56:00 -
[108]
Thank you CCP. Glad to see the farmers lose this huge source of unfair profit. Looking forward to other changes that will make their wallets cry.
I have been playing around with exploration and find that with time and skills it can be quite profitable. The problem is that it seems a bit small in comparison of other activities that don't take LOTS of time to accomplish. On top of moving the cans there I suggest exploration gets another serious buff in quality. It is one of the most time consuming and mentally difficult jobs to do in the game and I hope you will make the rewards reflect that more.
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Torrilin
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Posted - 2007.10.12 12:05:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Drako Krakin
- Second, currently the decryptors that drop in exploration (I never found one) are very few and very rare...
Personally I think the lowest level decryptors need to remain in the complexes they are currently in. All the higher level ones to be found only in exploration. At least this will keep invention alive until decryptor exploration is proven effective.
Decryptors are not a rare drop from exploration. You'll find roughly 1 decryptor out of every 5 high sec hacking sites. The problem is you can only find some decryptors via exploration. I have yet to see a report of War Strategon, Installation Guide, Stolen Formulae or Assembly Instructions dropping from an exploration site. If they *can* drop from exploration sites, chances are good that it's 0.0 only. The best data I've seen says they can't drop at all, because there are no exploration sites that can spawn the cans with the right drop table.
There's plenty of low end decryptors dropping in high sec RADAR sites. I'd presume mid range decryptors can drop in low sec RADAR sites. So arguing that COSMOS should continue to drop the low end decryptors is... backwards. That may be where the bulk of a COSMOS farmer's cash supply comes from, but it's not where the real supply constraint comes from.
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Torrilin
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Posted - 2007.10.12 12:29:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Jinx Barker
Since we are all aware that there could be unsuccessful strings, the more Datacores you got, the cheaper they are, the greater margin will be achieved in the long run, especially if you want to have enough to run a good number of jobs.
Well... sort of.
Using laser datacores as an example: I can typically get them off a buy order in Jita for 50-150k per datacore. They sell in Jita for about 200k per datacore. If I get a laser core for 50k, that does not mean it's worth 50k. It's still 200k, because that's what I can *sell* it for. It mostly happens that if I use it to invent, I make more money than if I just sold the datacore. If it's not worth using it to invent, well... then I don't put up a buy order for the datacore. Mostly laser isn't worth buying.
So when we do the invention business's books each month, datacores get booked at their sell value. Chances are good that all of them were obtained for much less. End result, we get the profit from datacore trading *and* the profit from inventing.
We do the same for pretty much anything else we buy for production. Trit bought at 2.20 is not worth 2.20 right now, it's worth 3.50-3.60. Pyerite bought at 9.15 is really worth much less... around 4.50 locally. It's a real pain to do the books this way, but it means you record actual profits. Cuts down on the starry eyed fantasies of making money inventing stealth bombers tho.
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Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
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Posted - 2007.10.12 15:53:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Torrilin
Originally by: Jinx Barker
Since we are all aware that there could be unsuccessful strings, the more Datacores you got, the cheaper they are, the greater margin will be achieved in the long run, especially if you want to have enough to run a good number of jobs.
Well... sort of.
Using laser datacores as an example: I can typically get them off a buy order in Jita for 50-150k per datacore. They sell in Jita for about 200k per datacore. If I get a laser core for 50k, that does not mean it's worth 50k. It's still 200k, because that's what I can *sell* it for. It mostly happens that if I use it to invent, I make more money than if I just sold the datacore. If it's not worth using it to invent, well... then I don't put up a buy order for the datacore. Mostly laser isn't worth buying.
So when we do the invention business's books each month, datacores get booked at their sell value. Chances are good that all of them were obtained for much less. End result, we get the profit from datacore trading *and* the profit from inventing.
We do the same for pretty much anything else we buy for production. Trit bought at 2.20 is not worth 2.20 right now, it's worth 3.50-3.60. Pyerite bought at 9.15 is really worth much less... around 4.50 locally. It's a real pain to do the books this way, but it means you record actual profits. Cuts down on the starry eyed fantasies of making money inventing stealth bombers tho.
I agree, just because I bought something for 1 ISK, and it is worth 1 Million ISK, does not meant that I take it at 1 ISK value.
What that means to me, conversely, is that I have a greater margin to play with, as opposed to the players who bought same item for 1 Million ISK, and as such I can compensate with volume against lower returns I might get if I undercut, thus, in many situations, I can make more money in the short term than the players who have to wait for my items to sell, before their items become marketable.
I prefer my market strategies to be strictly short term, 1-2 months of market play for maximum return, with maximum volume vs. higher price, then I move on to the next project, and I leave whatever particular niche I was working in till it settles down.
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Pelagiad
Killjoy.
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Posted - 2007.10.12 17:25:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Gestation
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Gestation
At least tell us you're not going to tell us or something. Anything!
Relax, some things we cannot answer straight away :), there is no plans to publish the formula or show the effects.
I really don't mean to sound 'whiney' and all - I truely do love the game - I wouldn't be here otherwise.
But - don't you think that is an unfair advantage the devs and GM's have? Knowing those formulas would really help when deciding what to invent, and how often.
I now see why it's very important for CCP to give the calculations.
I used to think it was fun not know what my chances where when inventing...I had a rough idea but not certain. But now I see that this is a huge problem.
CCP Devs play the game on the Tranquility, as regular characters, which is cool. However after what has transpired in the past with Tech II and Dev involvment in player activity, I see now why having the Devs know the invention "formula" and regular players not knowing causes a problem.
So if the public will not get the formula then please let us know what safe guards are in place to make sure that the Dev's aren't "helping" out their mates. If the answer is the honor system, then I think the track record will show that is not a good answer.
~Pel.
PS This gets more important as time goes on actually. with some T2 items not haveing a bpo, and T3 being all invetion based.
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Gestation
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Posted - 2007.10.12 17:59:00 -
[113]
^^ Exactly
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Chi Quan
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.10.12 18:34:00 -
[114]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Relax, some things we cannot answer straight away :), there are no plans to publish the formula or show the effects.
maybe you could include worded chace? like "looks promising" or "not very likely"
-- Tempus fugit --
quote spiralJunkie:
it doesn't matter how you pronounce it, it still shoots you in the face |
Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2007.10.13 01:52:00 -
[115]
Good changes, CCP.
Initially, prices will surge, then fall as more people look into exploration.
I think most of the complaining is being done by those who want to continue to farm the hell out of Cosmos for their immense gain. If prices on these items continue to rise long after the items are removed from Cosmos, then we have only ourselves to blame; training exploration skills is hardly difficult, and exploring itself is boring but fairly easy. Farming a static plex is also boring but fairly easy. The difference will be that most people will be able to benefit whereas, right now, only a few do.
Don't like it? Too bad. CCP's decided its time for you to share 
__________________________________________________
FOLD. The Ultimate PVP. It really is Us vs. Them.
clicky |
Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.14 03:30:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Mr Friendly
Good changes, CCP.
Initially, prices will surge, then fall as more people look into exploration.
I think most of the complaining is being done by those who want to continue to farm the hell out of Cosmos for their immense gain. If prices on these items continue to rise long after the items are removed from Cosmos, then we have only ourselves to blame; training exploration skills is hardly difficult, and exploring itself is boring but fairly easy. Farming a static plex is also boring but fairly easy. The difference will be that most people will be able to benefit whereas, right now, only a few do.
Don't like it? Too bad. CCP's decided its time for you to share
You totally failed to comprehend the criticisms, you read none of the comments from people about how this could be done in a matter that wouldn't totally **** invention for the benefit of the few people who can stand to stare at countdown timers for hours on end (explorers).
If you are talking about the benefits to the masses the current system is much more beneficial. Every single decryptor for Caldari and Gallete are currently being made available, that means that invention costs are as low as they can get. If they simply switch them over to exploration then all of them will not be available and invention costs will rise, making things more expensive for everyone, and simultaneously making many many currently profitable invention items unprofitable which means that no one will bother inventing them.
We are all freaking out and complaining about this change because that currently looks like what is going to happen, because CCP hasn't responded to any of our criticisms. Every time a thread like this starts to get critical CCP quits responding for some reason. They could mitigate all of this with some reassurances that decryptor drops would be increased in exploration complexes to mitigate the fact that not all of them will be found each time they spawn.
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Rarius
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Posted - 2007.10.14 23:25:00 -
[117]
bah
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Iris Lyania
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:16:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Iris Lyania on 15/10/2007 08:20:20
Edited by: Iris Lyania on 15/10/2007 08:19:39
Originally by: Mr Friendly
Don't like it? Too bad. CCP's decided its time for you to share
Originally by: Vitaki
You totally failed to comprehend the criticisms, you read none of the comments from people about how this could be done in a matter that wouldn't totally **** invention for the benefit of the few people who can stand to stare at countdown timers for hours on end (explorers).
If you are talking about the benefits to the masses the current system is much more beneficial. Every single decryptor for Caldari and Gallete are currently being made available, that means that invention costs are as low as they can get. If they simply switch them over to exploration then all of them will not be available and invention costs will rise, making things more expensive for everyone, and simultaneously making many many currently profitable invention items unprofitable which means that no one will bother inventing them.
We are all freaking out and complaining about this change because that currently looks like what is going to happen, because CCP hasn't responded to any of our criticisms. Every time a thread like this starts to get critical CCP quits responding for some reason. They could mitigate all of this with some reassurances that decryptor drops would be increased in exploration complexes to mitigate the fact that not all of them will be found each time they spawn.
Correct Vitaki, it's a real problem that CCP just announces a change, but then don't take part in the discussion about the problems which may arise from this change. I mean, i guess the actual inventors and COSMOS-hackers have a bit more knowledge about whats going on on the decryptor market than a employee of CCP who is just looking at some statistics. They should discuss with us.
Mr. Friendly do you have any idea about COSMOS-hacking ? I quess not. You are complaining only a few benefit from it, thats wrong. A lot more people could benefit from it if they would just try it. It's much easier than exploration, because all you need is the hacking skill. And it's a quite fair game and i know a lot of people which share their knowledge about the plexes to introduce new players to COSMOS-hacking. I also started as a hack-noob, got a lot of help by other more experienced hackers and made my way. If you would have been a bit more clever you would have already gotten a piece of the cake. But you look like one of these persons which only see the that other people are making more profit than you and thats whats making you jealous. Thats it.
COSMOS-hacking isn't as easy as mining Veldspar but everyone who is willing to invest some time for the right skills and who has enough patience can benefit from it.
You think the redistribution of the decryptors to exploration sites will change something, for sure it will, but not in the direction you are thinking about.
Actual per day there are hacked around 2000 decryptors from Caldari COSMOS not differentiating the sort. Most of them are sold via the market, some are used by the hackers for their own invention jobs. Look at their price ! We are not talking about your own profit you can make by selling them, we are talking about the problems that might arise for all the inventors when the change happens ! You might benefit by your own from the change, but most of the inventors wont, because the prices will raise dramatically, if CCP does not provide the same number or even more decryptors via exploration. ATM you can be happy to find one decryptor in an exploration site. To keep the prices where they are ATM CCP would need to provide maybe 4000 decryptors per day in the exploration sites and even much more if the prices should go down because by far not all the radar sites are found.
Originally by: Rarius
bah
Wow, thx for sharing your increadible wisdom. 
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Valen Haas
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Posted - 2007.10.15 12:14:00 -
[119]
why don't CCP make invention of BPOs possible. seems like a nice solution if:
Can only invent T2 BPOs from T1 BPOs.
Requires a load more datacores to invent BPOs.
Has a lower chance of success.
Invented T2 BPOs has a low starting ME so require research to be made profitable.
easy eh?
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Dr Bernard
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Posted - 2007.10.15 18:07:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Dr Bernard on 15/10/2007 18:13:02
The issue as I see it actually has little to do with decryptors in exploration sites vs COSMOS and more to do with simple economics.
Its not difficult to work out a cap on the price of each decryptor type. The cap tells you as an inventor at what point your profit margin evaporates. If people are buying decryptors at the current prices then they are either
a) really bad at math
b) don't care about the cost and are just throwing money at invention for kicks
c) have a free source of t2 components or cores that they can offset the decryptor cost against
d) have found a bug that garuantees success from an invention run
e) something i haven't thought of yet
Until inventors work this out for themselves and stop purchasing decryptors at such insane prices then we will not see an end to stupid pricing
If there are exploits being employed by farmers then morally ccp have a duty to investigate it and provide a fix. If a fix cannot be found and moving drops out to exploration is the solution then so be it. Its irrelevant to the pricing imo.
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Aykido
Gallente
Lobster of Babel
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Posted - 2007.10.15 22:02:00 -
[121]
Prices are irrelevant.
Invention has driven down the price of overpriced ships. These will continue to sell at 20-50% above the total costs involved in invention. Stupid people run quickly out of business.
Excel is definately the inventors friend.
But the end result of these price changes, caused by the advent of T2 Battleships (invention only), is that the BPO holder of any product that uses ship decryptors or mech eng datacores or both for invention will see their profit margins rise again.
Those inventors that haven't already raised all their T2 ship prices by at least 20% in the past week are now loosing money.
Selling PERFECT PRINTS of all seeded T1 BPO: modules, rigs, drones, ammo and ships (2 ships missing), and most capital modules too! Also any INVENTED T2 BPC and max run invention prints in bulk! |
Ciara Daag
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Posted - 2007.10.15 23:25:00 -
[122]
While I think this is a good thing in general to allow inventors to choose which variant,I see a big problem with this. Some ships are cheaper because they are less capable and less in demand. A favorite example of this is the Raptor. I like to fly Raptors as they work pretty much as well in their primary role,that is,getting to the enemy fast and getting a web and scram on them,but end up being more lightly armed. I don't really care about this because my job isn't to kill the enemy when I'm flying one but instead to lock him down so my corp-mates can finish him off.While the Raptor can do the interceptor job nearly as well as the crow, it simply isnt worth as much as the crow because it cant carry as heavy of weapons (at least not when you have the proper mwd,web and scram fitted) Now that inventors can choose to create either, Raptors simply will not be built. One might argue that the scarcity of Raptors will cause the market to adjust making the Raptors profitable to invent,but the problem is,the Raptors is ONLY desirable as a cheap alternative to the Crow. Now no Raptors will be built.
Similar arguments will apply to many of the other TII items. Whichever item is considered more desirable and therefore can get the higher price will be made. The other simply wont be available. While its true that there are still bpos out there,it still will cause shortages.
Overall,there needs to be some reason to make these items.Perhaps it might be easier to make them,or at similar difficulty it you might get a BPC with a higher number of runs.
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Stahanov Iv
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Posted - 2007.10.16 13:38:00 -
[123]
CCP You better put decriptors to RP shops like datacores, looks like time for buy all available decryptors on market for future resell ... price go high like rockets!
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Olivin
Gallente
Aquarium
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Posted - 2007.10.17 00:09:00 -
[124]
Well, CCP failed COSMOS and now COSMOS failing CCP.
As far as I remember CCP promised a wonderland in COSMOS, including
some cool "mini-professions" and T3. Instead, we got mediocre BPC for the meta
items with fancy names and insane build requirements and ability (just recently)
to make a some isk by farming hacking complexes. ( Note, before invention, all
items aside from the skill books, were pretty much worthless)
Farming hacking sites problem? Please consider this:
a) For COSMOS missions you don't really need to be there.
b) For making isk, it's not different then farming belts or normal complex, or mining.
c) Moving hacking containers will increase prices for the invention items.
d) People who whine about farmers blocking containers or doing some other dirty tricks
has no clue or probably never been at any COSMOS hacking site.
Solution: Instead of the whining on the forums about COSMOS farmers, - get the gang together
and farm yourself.
----------------------------
We¦re not lost. We¦re locationally challenged. |
Ischia
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Posted - 2007.10.19 05:48:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Drenan
seem to be designed to appeal to a sub-set of a sub-set of hair-shirt wearing former MUD players, like Invention?
lol...now *that* sounds like me.
I've done a fair bit of invention, and it is rapidly losing its appeal even to one such hair shirt wearer.
The fact that you pay a fortune to begin invention, then pay a fortune to try inventing something, then when you succeed (with completely unpublished mechanisms), you get a BP that can not be improved (researched) and which, when you build, will often ncost twice what a T2 ME 0 BP would cost is just...to much hair, even for me.
However, you need to realize that the recent crashes in T2 item costs which help with the pew-pew are largely down to invention. Just look at the historical pricing on a few T2 items to realize just how much money the T2 lottery winners were raking in.
What we need now is either a way to research BPCs or a way to turn BPCs into BPOs.
As for gameplay improvements, I'd love them too...
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LukeSzkajvoker
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Posted - 2007.10.19 12:20:00 -
[126]
Well, I'm sure the devs keep in secret the invention formula because it's absolutely random and they don't want we know this. :)
At least tell us pls when the game decide the invention will success or fail. I mean when it starts or when I push the deliver button or when the job finished or whenever? I ask it because what is the situation if I start a job with good skills in a POS and my corp member pushes the deliver button who has no invention skills at all or just has less skills? I haven't tried this yet but interesting what happen? So pls some info.
(my personal comment for the hacking plaxes changes: I don't agree with it. The decryptors prices will increase. I don't belive that if they will move to random spawn plaxes the same amount of it will get to the market for example in Jita and therefore its prices will be horrible -> invention (whit this success rate!!) will cost much more -> t2 ships modules etc will increase terrible too! I agree with stop farming but should find an other way to do this!)
regards
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.22 08:20:00 -
[127]
So how about making Exploration easier so I don't need a dedicated probing alt just to play the game?
-----
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Vitaki
Rens 911
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Posted - 2007.10.22 10:15:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Vitaki on 22/10/2007 10:24:31
Originally by: Valen Haas
why don't CCP make invention of BPOs possible. seems like a nice solution if:
Can only invent T2 BPOs from T1 BPOs.
Requires a load more datacores to invent BPOs.
Has a lower chance of success.
Invented T2 BPOs has a low starting ME so require research to be made profitable.
easy eh?
Seriously, this is a really good idea, why make BPO holders the privileged few? Sure they had to train a bunch of research agents to get these BPO's but they have made their incredible profits from them. Now give everyone else a chance and put the inventors on equal footing with the bpo holders. Why adhere to this bizarre plebeian / nobleman distinction that currently seperates the two types of manufactures?
People would still be using research agents to generate datacores but then the datacores would possibly move to creating bpo's rather than a bunch of bpc's that work to give me carpal tunnel to make decent profits, I have to do 40 or 60 invention jobs per day to keep my 20 manufacturing slots full, thats a hell of a lot of clicking. Invention as it stands is way too complicated and clunkey, but I guess thats why there are not tons of people doing it.
I wonder if CCP thought that invention would be broken into job specialties? Did they think that there would be pos managers, hackers, inventors, manufacturers, data core sellers etc all individually making these? Did they look and see that one person or corp efficently managing the chain would make all small time producers unprofitable?
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Mannakin
Caldari
Mercurialis Inc.
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.22 14:43:00 -
[129]
Originally by: LukeSzkajvoker
At least tell us pls when the game decide the invention will success or fail. I mean when it starts or when I push the deliver button or when the job finished or whenever? I ask it because what is the situation if I start a job with good skills in a POS and my corp member pushes the deliver button who has no invention skills at all or just has less skills? I haven't tried this yet but interesting what happen? So pls some info.
As far as I know, if your unskilled corp mate delivers the job, you get nothing. Or that is my experience and 2nd hand information anyways.
Why not add the decryptors (or some of them at least) to the LP point system? You could even put the encryption methods skills in the LP system.
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Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
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Posted - 2007.10.22 15:21:00 -
[130]
This is an excellent change to invention and a huge step forward concerning decryptors, unless of course you don't put out enough exploration sites to compensate for the loss of supply.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.25 19:24:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Uni, for your information, I want to cite this post by Akita
Originally by: Akita T
What the heck are you still doing here reading ?
GO PLACE YOUR ORDERS !
Later in the same thread she admitted having brough all teh decryptor she could so she was pushing for a faster increase in price.
As you can see the push to increase prices was there well before october.
Actualy, I started buying decryptors on the 13th of September, following the developement of a pretty accurate "invention costs analysis" XLS in this thread that started on the 11th of September. Pretty easy to remember dates, mind you, 9/11 and 9/13.
I started the other thread (the one VM quoted from) on the 18th of September, roughly one week later.
Also, he almost makes it sound like I had something to hide and was "found out" that I've been buying up, when I admited to it pretty much from the get-go (my initial purchase spree was pretty much over by then).
_
1|2|3 |
Sgt Napalm
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.25 19:32:00 -
[132]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Hi
Chronotis, are you following up on the booster side of things? If so please follow the link.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=617924
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Nixxxs
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Posted - 2007.10.29 03:36:00 -
[133]
I liked invention till.... They made it require insane amounts of level 5 skills. They may not be required but if you want decent chances and % of success you need allot of V skills. ThatĘs why they wont ever publish the formulas because it would probably anger too many people.
Personally I Like the complexity of the system, But donĘt fail like eq2 did. The rare components ended up being worth more than the finished product so crafting was worthless in that game if you make them too rare thatĘs what happens when you pull a boner on a crafting system.
The fact the invention system is so complex it scares away most players rather quickly, which is great more money for me. Rofl
I however see a HUGE problem with inventioną.
How many T2 blueprint originals are floating around before you up and changed the rules? Those need to go away for the system to truly work. Otherwise older folks with t2 blueprint originals are going to always clobber inventors and itĘs going to implode on it self as the inventor has 0% chance to compete price wise with a T2 OBP copier.
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Ischia
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Posted - 2007.10.30 05:39:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Nixxxs
ThatĘs why they wont ever publish the formulas because it would probably anger too many people.
I suspect they won't publich it because they are still regularly tweaking it and/or they use it as a tool to control market prices.
Originally by: Nixxxs
How many T2 blueprint originals...Those need to go away...Otherwise older folks with t2 blueprint originals are going to always clobber inventors
I think they need to provide 1 of 2 things to substantially reduce this problem:
- Allow ME/PE research on BPCs
- Allow invention to create BPOs by some mechanism.
or...as you say, invention will just be a means to provide a price cap on T2 items.
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Pedro Montana
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Posted - 2007.11.02 16:27:00 -
[135]
I explore heavily. I have found many radar sites in empire-lowsec-0.0.
Ive tried Cosmos.
My thoughts on cosmos:
Take all the worst parts of farming you find in Everquest and WOW cram it into a itty-bitty little space...and make it so that a small number of people can control it.
Moving things outta cosmos complexes is absolutely wonderful. I just hope the number of decyptors found in radar sites go up significantly to keep invention prices down. (I dont invent yet but I love buying cheap covert cloaks for example).
Wonderful news.
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Ischia
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Posted - 2007.11.12 13:17:00 -
[136]
In retrospect, I think this:
Originally by: Ischia
- Allow ME/PE research on BPCs
will only be useful to make small T2 ship construction profitable, and is not much use even for that.
And this:
Originally by: Ischia
- Allow invention to create (possibly limited run) BPOs by some mechanism.
Is really the only way to make invention competitive with BPOs.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Life is Experience
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Posted - 2007.11.13 10:28:00 -
[137]
I'm not going to pretend that I've done invention on a large scale, or actually completed a job succesfully, but from reading the forums and talking to people who do this "skill based" profession it seems no better than the T2 lottery.
The main difference is that the results of "winning" is far less profitable than the original T2 BPO Lottery. Atleast they called it what it was.
Now it's an expensive, time consuming and purely chance based (from this thread alone, with maxed skills there's still no guarantee of getting a positive result) past time that's one of the biggest ISK Sinks in the game.
I didn't start playing Eve because I thought it was a dice roll to hit type of game. We have skills. Most of the skills have the exact % of improvement in its description. When people build things with the right amount of minerals, it's built. It's not luck. Even, the Reverse Engineering skill I can see on Eve Mon (haven't looked for it on the market) is based on a percentage of luck but I don't know if the numbers will be published either.
Tactics and Skill should mean the difference between success and failure not Random Luck.
Leave luck to the gamblers.
Life is about memories the more the better.
End Slavery. |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.11.19 19:42:00 -
[138]
Making invention materials available at locations other than cosmos farmplexes is a great idea.
However, you can't simply take the number spawned in cosmos and move those to explorations. You need to have many many more waiting to be found in explorations than you did in cosmos, because a tiny portion of the exploration sites will be found.
There needs to be enough out there so that what *is* found can be an equal supply - or greater supply, actually, if we're unhappy with how high the prices are.
Likewise it would be a mistake tojust move all these to 0.0 explorations: You need explorations in hi sec and low sec turning up at least some of the materials produced or again, inventors will experience a drastic drying up of their materials.
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Ischia
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Posted - 2007.11.22 11:36:00 -
[139]
Upon re-re-reflectiom (or is that re-retrospect?)...and talking mostly to myself, I think this:
Originally by: Ischia
- Allow ME/PE research on BPCs
Would actually help; cruiser class invention jobs suffer greatly from low ME.
And this:
Originally by: Ischia
- Allow invention to create (possibly limited run) BPOs by some mechanism.
Would be a valid solution if they we limited in some way, but the winds of change may dictate no more BPOs in game.
So...my next thought was "reduce the consumption rate of datacores and decrypters on some jobs", but this is equivalent to "increase the success chance". Which is what is happening in R3. Which then leads to the problem that invention costs in battleships should not make them too cheap....which is also being fixed by the differential changes being introduced. Hmmmm.
So what's left?
- a path to effectively decommission T2 BPOs; this can be handled by slowly increasing invention chances. OR:
- a way to get close to BPO ME/PE. I'd still like to be able to research BPCs. Make it take time. Make it require high skills. Even, add 'Reverse Engineering' to go from BPC to *limited copy* or *limited run* BPO. So: [invent]->BPC->[rev. eng]->limited BPO->[research]->better ME/PE
ISTM that there should be a theoretical way to get from a BPC to an *efficient* BPC.
Part of the economy is about (materially) efficient production, another part is about (player/virtual time) efficient production. I'm happy to wait longer to get a BPC/O that saves me money. If it's slow, I will never out-compete a BPO owner, but I will get a usable BPC/O.
Finally, I could go looking for my own decrypters etc (and thereby reduce the price if more did the same), but I don't because (a) I'll probably get ganked in lo-sec/0.0 while searching and (b) even if I do find one, chances are some farmer or other person will beat me to it anyway. The coming changes may address this, but the prospects of searching for at least an hour only to lose what I find to another player, who maybe only found it because they followed me, is just ... not fun.
However...this may just reflect my complete ignorance on the subject of exploration.
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