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Selene Le'Cotiere
Amarr
I-Omniscient-I
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Posted - 2007.10.14 02:53:00 -
[91]
Maybe target Painters will get moved to a hi slot. that would alleviate some fitting issues.
*wakes up from the dream* 
_________
"You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer |
Voin
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Posted - 2007.10.14 02:58:00 -
[92]
Since February 2005, nothing in EVE was nerf (30 sec /6 sec) 5 times less per cut! To those who trying to proof that nerf, try to imagine if next nerf by CCP 'll be cutting your stronger side of your ship by 5 times down... Would you like that? I believe No, so Go with peace and prey that 'll never happen with your ships...
and to ccp ................
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Cythrawl
Caldari
Central Defiance
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Posted - 2007.10.14 04:23:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Cythrawl on 14/10/2007 04:23:50
Ok guys. Seriously. Relax for like 5 seconds.
There's a lot been said about how this is a complete and utter nerf, and its not. Its just a change to the pve/pvp tactics of a battleship known for being crazy-easy to rat with when fitted with an almost unstoppable dps source.
As for PVP:
Ravens are caldari ships. Any good Caldari pvp pilot who flies something of this sort will tell you straight up that they don't fly alone. Sure, I can do a few pvp things with my ravens and drakes and rokhs, but for the majority of pvp, I'm sure as hell not going out there thinking I'm the number one ship to fly solo and have at it. You'll need help. Lots of groups use rapiers. Maybe now they'll actually get off their asses and fit one target painter on their ship to go with the billion damps.
Now as for guns vs. missiles:
The difference here is the fact that you both have sig radius to deal with and tracking/flight time. Also, if you hadn't noticed, this 'nerf' pretty much seals the deal on any nano-variety bs ships doing huge amounts of dps while running circles around you and spewing missiles. Nano-Machs and Typhoons just got hosed. How's that a bad thing?
So what you're inside blaster/pulse/autocannon range. If you tank knowing you're after a bs that uses high-damage close range ammo, you're pretty much 2 steps ahead already, cause all they know is you're in a raven who could be using 1 of 4 damage missile types. Also, since you need to get in that close to pvp against them and scramb them, funnily enough, you might have a chance at being better off than they are.
The only thing I see torpedos could use would be about a 2 second increase into the flight time or a 300m/s increase to speed of the torps. That'd affectly polish enough range for the non-perfect pilot to be able to affect damage without completely getting up in someone's face to do it if they were flying a raven, and give the other bs with torps the ability to stretch a decent range out of their ship without allowing for nano-spammage.
I could still figure a raven for 0.0 ratting without throwing the baby out with the bath water and use torps. Doesn't completely ruin the ship, but it does mean you're gonna have a hell of a time closing range on all those bs that used to be easy kills from anywhere. Fitting an mwd to close up wouldn't be unheard of considering you'd have to do that with blasters. You can manage to tank 0.0 rats without having to have the ever-loved shield boost amplifier. Take it off, and use a target painter, and you're gravy.
Plus, if you can kill rats with torps faster, doesn't that mean you have to tank less? This will only truly do in people used to missioning with torps.
I feel for them, because I am one. Now I'll have to revert back to using cruise missiles and actually suffering when I see rats spam defenders.
If they nerfed the defender spam from all rats though, I'd be completely fine with these changes.
Until then, breathe a bit. The world isn't over yet.
.:.
 Originally by: Krazy Bitsch
Originally by: Virtuality
In before the first troll.
i do believe you are too late for this....
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Ruato
Gallente
Gurgleblaster Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.14 04:25:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Goumindong
I suppose then you would love to show me this amasing Maelstrom that does 1437 dps with tech 2 equipment out to 30km and can perfectly choose its damage types?
Can the Hyperion, Abaddon, Dominix, etc out-tank your raven while doing 1150 dps out to 30km while being able to perfectly choose their damage types?
Can they out-ewar your raven?
I suppose you could share this amazing raven setup that can tank, do great dps and ewar at the same time.
- If you fit for ewar, you cant shield tank
- If you fit basic pvp tools (scram, web, mwd, injector, and after the change, painter), you dont have any slots free for shield tank.
- if you fit for dps, you cant armor tank
Please do share.
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Get rid of those *bleep*ing secure containers. *bleep*! |
Igualmentedos
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Posted - 2007.10.14 04:33:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Ruato
Originally by: Goumindong
I suppose then you would love to show me this amasing Maelstrom that does 1437 dps with tech 2 equipment out to 30km and can perfectly choose its damage types?
Can the Hyperion, Abaddon, Dominix, etc out-tank your raven while doing 1150 dps out to 30km while being able to perfectly choose their damage types?
Can they out-ewar your raven?
I suppose you could share this amazing raven setup that can tank, do great dps and ewar at the same time.
- If you fit for ewar, you cant shield tank
- If you fit basic pvp tools (scram, web, mwd, injector, and after the change, painter), you dont have any slots free for shield tank.
- if you fit for dps, you cant armor tank
Please do share.
Isn't it obvious that goumindong is flying a make-believe raven?
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Pbs
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Posted - 2007.10.14 05:10:00 -
[96]
"Dear developers, why do you hate caldari so much?" (c)
Last advantage of Caldari race has gone under a cat's tail. It sucks in PvP because of shield tank (med slots are busy), now they will start to suck in PvE, when torpedo-Raven was nerfed.
What next? Crow with 150 m/s speed limit and Scorpion with one med slot? And Drake with 2800 sec of shield regeneration? 
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.14 06:48:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Pbs
"Dear developers, why do you hate caldari so much?" (c)
Last advantage of Caldari race has gone under a cat's tail. It sucks in PvP because of shield tank (med slots are busy), now they will start to suck in PvE, when torpedo-Raven was nerfed.
What next? Crow with 150 m/s speed limit and Scorpion with one med slot? And Drake with 2800 sec of shield regeneration?
Bull****, caldari pvp just got a big buff, and caldari pve just got a big buff.
Instead of spending 20k isk to kill a 1.9mil rat with t1 torps, I now use 40k isk to kill the same rat but faster with javelin torps. Javelin torps do more damage than the current torps(even faction) and travel faster.
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Zar Dim
Minmatar
Anus Horriblis
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Posted - 2007.10.14 07:03:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Instead of spending 20k isk to kill a 1.9mil rat with t1 torps, I now use 40k isk to kill the same rat but faster with javelin torps. Javelin torps do more damage than the current torps(even faction) and travel faster.
Don't be too loud about it otherwise devs will notice and will nerf T2 torps just for the sake of nerfing 
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Ultima Nova
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Posted - 2007.10.14 07:17:00 -
[99]
ok let me put it this way, i was on the test server and what i was doing is flying to a good 0.0 system to try and get some officer and faction drops. I got to a system in Stains and was warping around the belts to get a good spawn, i found one and locked the BS and started firing, i was seeing the torps hit but doing no damage. I was like WTF is going on, then when looking at the enemie the torps were not even going half way, they were going 24km then disappearing but splashing the enemie making it look like a hit, once i tried moving towards the enemie, well thats a good move considering all NPC ships have an automatic MWD fitted. so in over words the Raven cannot Rat or Mission any more because most of the enemies are not gonna point blank you.
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fallen merovigean
Yonder Mountain Productions
PROBABLE CAUSE
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Posted - 2007.10.14 07:22:00 -
[100]
screw it let ccp nerf us to complete uselessness, WERE still the best character class in game, bar none, they can nerf torps to hit just with 10k and you know what we will stil use em, now you'll see nano ravens instead, now with better handleing, and a closer range enemies will only fear me more. Stop the crying so the scorp is useless, so the moa and eagle have been useless since there creation, the only viable ships for pvp being the Cerb and raven are now being nerfed, guess what what are they gonna nerf next the f*(^ing merlin go ahead im still gonna fly caldari, and im still gonna beat you with caldari. Oh wait that means cruise missiles are next OMG OMGOMGOMGOGMOGM runnnn awwayyy gallente are gonna wipe us off the grid, how do i go about gettin a reInbursement for the over a year waste of REAL money ive invested in this game for poor game machinacs, and time? is it possible? If not no biggie caldari thru , and thru ( lol its not gallente Vs caldari, its Caldari Vs CCP bring it on biiiachess)
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Ultima Nova
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Posted - 2007.10.14 08:04:00 -
[101]
let me put it this way as well, ok torps are used through the launcher called Siege Launchers, used for Sieges on large ships and structures such as BattleShips and Capital ships and also POS'. Now i have quite good skills in making a missile go further, such as Missile Bombardment level 5 and Missile Projection lvl 4, this means on the normal live server i cant hit up to 103km, but takes ages for the torps to get there. On the test with the torps nerf i can hit a max of 24km, ok thats nearly a 80km drop in range. But hold on isnt a POS' shields 30km? this means it cannot hit a POS so means its not a Siege ammo type.
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Pbs
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Posted - 2007.10.14 08:15:00 -
[102]
Well, Caldary with torps still have possibility to siege asteroids and cans... Beautiful siege weapon, imho.
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Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.14 08:40:00 -
[103]
Torps now fit the Rocket->HAM->Torp progression like LightMis->HvyMis->Cruise.
They should have Large Pulse/Blaster/AC range, nice and up close so you tell what religion the enemy is.
THUKKER -Be Paranoid
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.10.14 09:14:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Futher Bezluden
Torps now fit the Rocket->HAM->Torp progression like LightMis->HvyMis->Cruise.
They should have Large Pulse/Blaster/AC range, nice and up close so you tell what religion the enemy is.
Actually they don't fit. For guns (and rockets) short range weapons have easier time hitting/doing more damage to small fast targets. Torps on the other hand does less damage to small targets.
If missiles don't fit with guns in one progression why should they fit in another?
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Gar Ddhen
Gallente
Mining Bytes Inc.
Mass Destruction.
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Posted - 2007.10.14 09:31:00 -
[105]
Caldari pilots should never be flying alone in PvP.
Let your tacklers web and scram your targets, your recons damp and jam them, you just have to warp in up close and personal with that sexy 33% boost to ROF and spam torps into the blighters. The guiding mantra of Caldari PvP pilots however, is never fly alone.
If you are whining about PvE... tough, I got sick of seing isk farmers chaining belts in cloaking torp ravens, guys less than a month old with similar names, similar birth dates all in fecking Ravens in damned near every decent ratting system you care to mention... if this nerf/bonus hits them hard then good for it. Switch to cruise, they do the job just as well if somewhat slower.
I tend to agree the range is a little too short, personally I would rather see that addressed in another increase in speed rather than flight time. Bring it up to 35-40 km with maxed out skills and that would be gravy, and means they wont be outrun by cruisers so easily, even if without target painters they wont do a huge amount of damage to said cruiser... mebbe some folk should start getting cozy with those minmatar recon pilots out there.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.14 09:36:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Gar Ddhen
Caldari pilots should never be flying alone in PvP.
Let your tacklers web and scram your targets, your recons damp and jam them, you just have to warp in up close and personal with that sexy 33% boost to ROF and spam torps into the blighters. The guiding mantra of Caldari PvP pilots however, is never fly alone.
If you are whining about PvE... tough, I got sick of seing isk farmers chaining belts in cloaking torp ravens, guys less than a month old with similar names, similar birth dates all in fecking Ravens in damned near every decent ratting system you care to mention... if this nerf/bonus hits them hard then good for it. Switch to cruise, they do the job just as well if somewhat slower.
I tend to agree the range is a little too short, personally I would rather see that addressed in another increase in speed rather than flight time. Bring it up to 35-40 km with maxed out skills and that would be gravy, and means they wont be outrun by cruisers so easily, even if without target painters they wont do a huge amount of damage to said cruiser... mebbe some folk should start getting cozy with those minmatar recon pilots out there.
Javelin torps with the new launcher deals MORE dps than the current launcher with faction torps, is much faster, has longer range, and with much better explosion velocity. You dont want to do 950 DPS at 30km? Fine, then you can do 700 DPS up to 150km with javelins.
Javelins only cost twice as much as t1 torps, they are very much economical for ratting(20k extra isk cost in ammo to kill a 1.9mil bs spawn).
The ONLY group of people this "nerf" actually nerfs are 1 month old farmer ravens and people who havent bothered to train torpedo 5.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.10.14 09:51:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Hoshi on 14/10/2007 09:51:22
Originally by: Gamesguy
Javelin torps with the new launcher deals MORE dps than the current launcher with faction torps, is much faster, has longer range, and with much better explosion velocity. You dont want to do 950 DPS at 30km? Fine, then you can do 700 DPS up to 150km with javelins.
Who is spreading misinformation now?
Post change Javelins will do 2.3% less dps than pre change caldari navy torps.
You can't use dread guristas as a measuring stick, it's not commonly available.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.14 09:56:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Hoshi
Edited by: Hoshi on 14/10/2007 09:51:22
Originally by: Gamesguy
Javelin torps with the new launcher deals MORE dps than the current launcher with faction torps, is much faster, has longer range, and with much better explosion velocity. You dont want to do 950 DPS at 30km? Fine, then you can do 700 DPS up to 150km with javelins.
Who is spreading misinformation now?
Post change Javelins will do 2.3% less dps than pre change caldari navy torps.
You can't use dread guristas as a measuring stick, it's not commonly available.
I'm just gonna laugh in your face now. OH NOES, I'm doing 2.3% less dps! Its just that my torps move 3 times faster and have 3 times better explosion velocity! ZOMG I demand ccp give me back my 2.3% dps right away!
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Duckeye
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Posted - 2007.10.14 10:08:00 -
[109]
I love my phoon now, CCP I want to hug you and have your children.
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Pbs
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Posted - 2007.10.14 10:33:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Duckeye
I love my phoon now, CCP I want to hug you and have your children.
You wants hug CCP and f*** them till they all has become pregnant? Strange idea... But they deserve this 
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Major Nova
Caldari
Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.10.14 10:34:00 -
[111]
all i need to say is if there is nothing wrong leave them alone.
remember the saying if its not broke dont fix it, use that advice.
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Voin
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Posted - 2007.10.14 10:54:00 -
[112]
Thinking of send my little friend aka E.T. to clean up headoffice of CCP...
E.T.
E.T. at night vision
To other who proof new nerf another PvE fact - mission The Vengeance impossible to do cause target always in there at 50 km radius on the MWD in deadspace.... funny is in it?
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.14 10:55:00 -
[113]
This will be a fantastic boost to pvp Raven.
As for PVE... well, who cares, really? Just use Cruise.
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Mrski Okupator
Amarr
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.10.14 11:12:00 -
[114]
Ahh, so this is how it works;
Dear CCP, LASERS ARE FINE, never change them, ever.
The Zealot is uber and those utility highs are sweet as pie.
Amarr have no need of ewar and our battleships are the most versatile ships in EVE.
And thank you for (apparently) shooting the guy that promised laser boost and apoc role change.
___
Apocalypse Mining. Mine your way to heaven.
What playing Amarr feels like. Shamelessly snatched from Almarez. |
Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.14 11:14:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Voin
Thinking of send my little friend aka E.T. to clean up headoffice of CCP...
[NUKED URLS]
To other who proof new nerf another PvE fact - mission The Vengeance impossible to do cause target always in there at 50 km radius on the MWD in deadspace.... funny is in it?
WTF is that?? Mind hosting to a site with fewer popups and cookies than the keebler elf warehouse.
THUKKER -Be Paranoid
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Lenaria
Caldari
Ursa Ritor
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Posted - 2007.10.14 12:44:00 -
[116]
Looks like a logical move, but seems a bit overdone. I would expect at least 40km range on raven, and 25-30 km on other ships...
==============================================
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Appalachia
Pringles Inc.
STYX.
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Posted - 2007.10.14 14:05:00 -
[117]
I find this change unnecessary. Especially the explosion radius increase. All large weapons got a (signature)explosion radius of 400m, so no need to change that. As Tillek said there is no room for a target painter either.
The range is doable, but 6 seconds run-time for a torpedo is illogically low.
I like to add that non-Caldari users are getting buffed for years now, give Caldari something more fair then this. Also torpedo's are barely being used in pvp, I think this will make it worse.
Change it back!, except the 33% ROF boost 
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Tral Kul
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Posted - 2007.10.14 15:31:00 -
[118]
First this isn't completely a nerf, it's a changing of tactics.
Some people will adapt some wont but it's pretty clear that torps and cruise having almost the same range but one having more damage just isn't right.
That said an 80% reduction in base flight time will probably in the end be deemed too much. Let's face it though there was a probelm and it needed to be fixed however this is Sisi we're talking about so nothing is final.
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Captain Plumbo
Caldari
NorCorp Enterprise
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Posted - 2007.10.14 18:00:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Soulles
.....
There is some basic things to follow when creating a game heres a link to give the developers a clue.
http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2004/05/nerf.html
QFT
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Damned Force
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Posted - 2007.10.14 18:02:00 -
[120]
The idee to make Torps close range high damage weapon is perfect. The changes to make this are pain.
1st. the range is ok i think 9km base is good on a short range weapon.
2nd. The prob is caldari are flying rocks. they dont have the speed and agility to get close. u need offer tank to be able, and offer tank to web the enemy to hold in this range.
3rd. The sig radius incrase. Caldari ships need drop tank again to use painters to get full damage. If torps get 530m expl radius, why not all large short range weapons get the same? Autocannons, Pulse lasers, Blasters...
The prob devs again falling on the other part of the horse :(
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