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Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.14 18:10:00 -
[121]
I'm a mission runner, I have a CNR, I use siege, even if they alter t2 torps this doesn't bother me.
Why? Because I'll switch to cruise and accept the narrowing of the gap between Caldari and the other races in PvE.
However for those who think this will make the Raven viable for PvP your kidding yourselves. The range puts you right in there with the blaster boats meaning any that are un-tackled will be in-your face in short order.
Take into account that fitting two target painters will nerf your tank severely and add to this the fact that mass and velocity on Caldari ships is just plain awful and that even with the MWD, dropping another med-slot, the Raven lacks the mobility to be competent at these kind of ranges.
They have taken a mid-range weapon system, useful only in limited situations, and made it into a useless close range weapon system... at least as far as Caldari are concerned.
Yes this affects the phoon also, but it will at least be able to fit an MWD, 2x TP and a cap-booster in it's mids without dropping down to a two slot tank. Also the added agility and speed of the phoon will make it far more able to make use of a close range weapons system especially tied in with close range turrets.
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Arrow Jumpdrive
Minmatar
Sicarri Covenant
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Posted - 2007.10.14 18:50:00 -
[122]
About damn time I'd say. Kind of like Railguns and Blasters, Howitzers and AC's, Or Pulse and Tachs.
Every race non-missle user has a short and long range version of their weapons, Caldari pilots should face the level playing field as as gun users. I cant hit frigs at 15k with my 1400's, why the hell should torp users be able to hit one with torps ?, [ trust me, painter drones with torps DRASTICALLY increases damage against small sig radius targets ].
 Quote:
no this is a bug, because if this is a nerf it would be impossible to impliment. For one they would have to change mission settings for caldari to make the enemies come closer than 15km
- Caldari have this cool thing called cruise missles. They are for LONG range. Sorry that your solo mission pwnmobile needs this balancing.
Quote:
This is NOT a nerf.
This IS a boost.
PVP only takes place within the 30km area anyway, so range is not an issue. In pvp any range greater than that, missles are larger inferior/useless compared to guns anyways.
Torpedoes are only used for when you are fighting large targets such as other bs. Those complaining that you cant take out vagabonds with your torpedoes now...we'll there was no way you could before anyway.
It helps balance ravens in the pve department when it come to killing pve bs. However missions won't really be any much slower. Cruise missles work about just as fast. (Hit targets much farther away, kills cruisers instantly)
Finally a caldari bs is given more pvp viability all anyone can do is complain complain complan.
<<<---------- What he said.
Quote:
Javs won't solve this - they make it worse. Moreover, the primary reason for the use of jav torps before the jav nerf was the fact that they gave the torp raven a way to defend vs. smaller ships. This is no longer the case, as they now have the explosion radius of tech 1 TQ torps.
- There are these cool drones, they are called "painter drones". Check your local market.
/me Ravens balancing Signed.
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Ultima Nova
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Posted - 2007.10.14 19:08:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Arrow Jumpdrive
About damn time I'd say. Kind of like Railguns and Blasters, Howitzers and AC's, Or Pulse and Tachs.
Every race non-missle user has a short and long range version of their weapons, Caldari pilots should face the level playing field as as gun users. I cant hit frigs at 15k with my 1400's, why the hell should torp users be able to hit one with torps?
one thing id like to know its can i hit your ammo out the air, or does 50ms reduce your damage? does removing a med slot reduce your armor tank?
If not then STFU please and think about what your saying
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torswyn
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Posted - 2007.10.14 19:23:00 -
[124]
I've read through the whole thread and looked at the stats on SiSi. What about using target painter drones on your Raven, then switching to med drones for taking out the smaller stuff. The drone change, i.e. bandwidth, could even be a boost as then the raven could carry a set of combat drones along with the EWAR drones.
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Transcendent Panda
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.14 20:17:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Transcendent Panda on 14/10/2007 20:18:32
Originally by: Arrow Jumpdrive
About damn time I'd say. Kind of like Railguns and Blasters, Howitzers and AC's, Or Pulse and Tachs.
Every race non-missle user has a short and long range version of their weapons, Caldari pilots should face the level playing field as as gun users. I cant hit frigs at 15k with my 1400's, why the hell should torp users be able to hit one with torps ?, [ trust me, painter drones with torps DRASTICALLY increases damage against small sig radius targets ].
ok smartass, since you're hellbent on having the exact same rules for each and every weapon type, I want
1) siege- and HAM launchers to have vastly reduced fittings
2) increased sig radius of high damage/close combat guns to reduce to-hit chance
3) torp explosion speed buffed in order to actually hurt moving ships smaller than battleships
4) HP of (all) long range missiles buffed so cutting incoming missile DPS in half won't be that likely anymore
5) flight time of long range missiles reduced to half or 1/4, speed increased to balance this
6) missile range modules
7) T1 long- and short-range ammo for same missile launcher type
8) un-gimped target painters
9) missile ship/agility speed un-nerfed
10) missile explosion "falloff" skill
11) guided missile precision applied to short range missiles as well
I think you missed some things in your "kind of like blah blah blah" comparison
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.10.14 20:46:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Chainsaw Plankton on 14/10/2007 20:57:00
adapt or die!!!!!!
surprised i was the first one to say that
and you people used torps in pvp outside of 20km?!?!?!?!??!?!??!
pvp boost
pve nerf
welcome to the world of turret users where you cant hit at 80km with near full damage damn near every time.
try using an amarr ship for missions, and then try a cruise raven.... still much easier with the cruise raven.
if they are really small and/or really fast you wont hit them with torps or guns. guns don't always get wrecking hits and torps wont always hit for full damage
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Vanessa Vale
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Posted - 2007.10.14 21:20:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Ruato
Originally by: Goumindong
I suppose then you would love to show me this amasing Maelstrom that does 1437 dps with tech 2 equipment out to 30km and can perfectly choose its damage types?
Can the Hyperion, Abaddon, Dominix, etc out-tank your raven while doing 1150 dps out to 30km while being able to perfectly choose their damage types?
Can they out-ewar your raven?
I suppose you could share this amazing raven setup that can tank, do great dps and ewar at the same time.
- If you fit for ewar, you cant shield tank
- If you fit basic pvp tools (scram, web, mwd, injector, and after the change, painter), you dont have any slots free for shield tank.
- if you fit for dps, you cant armor tank
Please do share.
Are we talking about the raven, or are we talking about the maelstrom here? Cause it's on the same boat. No, hold on. Not only the raven does more damage at 30 km due to RoF in general, but it does even more to a maelstrom due to the huge signature of tier3 bses.
And you still whine. I hope CCP rolls back the change. :P
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.10.14 21:39:00 -
[128]
wait a moment.....
does this mean guristas will now fight you at 20km?!?!??!?!??!
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.14 22:11:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Transcendent Panda
Edited by: Transcendent Panda on 14/10/2007 20:18:32
Originally by: Arrow Jumpdrive
About damn time I'd say. Kind of like Railguns and Blasters, Howitzers and AC's, Or Pulse and Tachs.
Every race non-missle user has a short and long range version of their weapons, Caldari pilots should face the level playing field as as gun users. I cant hit frigs at 15k with my 1400's, why the hell should torp users be able to hit one with torps ?, [ trust me, painter drones with torps DRASTICALLY increases damage against small sig radius targets ].
ok smartass, since you're hellbent on having the exact same rules for each and every weapon type, I want
1) siege- and HAM launchers to have vastly reduced fittings
2) increased sig radius of high damage/close combat guns to reduce to-hit chance
3) torp explosion speed buffed in order to actually hurt moving ships smaller than battleships
4) HP of (all) long range missiles buffed so cutting incoming missile DPS in half won't be that likely anymore
5) flight time of long range missiles reduced to half or 1/4, speed increased to balance this
6) missile range modules
7) T1 long- and short-range ammo for same missile launcher type
8) un-gimped target painters
9) missile ship/agility speed un-nerfed
10) missile explosion "falloff" skill
11) guided missile precision applied to short range missiles as well
I think you missed some things in your "kind of like blah blah blah" comparison
Since you insist on being an idiot, then.
1. Cruise missile launchers should take 2 RCUs to fit
2. Torp launchers will have a max range of 5 km with 20km falloff, and 5 km optimal and 30km falloff with javelin and 3 km optimal and 10km falloff with rage(compare to autocannons).
3. Torps can miss.
4. Cruise missiles basically do 0 damage to ships moving faster than 100 m/s at 100km or less.
5. Missile disruptors that cut the flight time of missiles by 60% or more, and increase their explosion velocity by 60% or more.
6. Remove fof missiles.
7. Cruise missile launchers will do about 200-250 DPS with long range ammo, which also reduce their explosion velocity to 20m/s(compare to quake).
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Korvus Korax
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Posted - 2007.10.15 00:42:00 -
[130]
Go back 1 year.
Everyone and their dog was flying a Raven. Everyone said that "Ravens are PvE on easy mode".
Is this surprising? Not really. Should be nerfed even more, tbh.
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Zeknichov
Life. Universe. Everything.
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.15 01:54:00 -
[131]
Anyone who thinks this is a nerf needs to stfu and start kissing CCPs shoes for this buff.
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HeavyGunz 0331
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Posted - 2007.10.15 03:53:00 -
[132]
I put this in the other post but in an attempt to change this I'm putting it here too.
Like stated about you change the whole purpose of the ONLY missile ship. You already screwed Caldari over with the Rokh gunboat but thats a whole different topic. Nerfing both the range and the expl radius is way too drastic. I see the point that you want one missile to be long (cruise) and one short but you screwed up yet again when you made them seperate skills. My suggestion is that you make a new launcher. I know that might be a bit redundant but cruise is for loooong range, torps could be med like 75k, and "heavy assault torps" could be close. Don't screw over the 6M SP characters like me who don't have the manueverability to stay that close. Or hey you can make Battleship 4 that has tank and missles bonus since you screwed the missle guys over before<--- I KID I KID!!! Seriously though the Golem (I know still in dev) would take as long to train for as the dread. Pleas I am begging on my knees not to make me regret going torps.
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Tral Kul
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Posted - 2007.10.15 04:27:00 -
[133]
Originally by: HeavyGunz 0331
I put this in the other post but in an attempt to change this I'm putting it here too.
Like stated about you change the whole purpose of the ONLY missile ship. You already screwed Caldari over with the Rokh gunboat but thats a whole different topic. Nerfing both the range and the expl radius is way too drastic. I see the point that you want one missile to be long (cruise) and one short but you screwed up yet again when you made them seperate skills. My suggestion is that you make a new launcher. I know that might be a bit redundant but cruise is for loooong range, torps could be med like 75k, and "heavy assault torps" could be close. Don't screw over the 6M SP characters like me who don't have the manueverability to stay that close. Or hey you can make Battleship 4 that has tank and missles bonus since you screwed the missle guys over before<--- I KID I KID!!! Seriously though the Golem (I know still in dev) would take as long to train for as the dread. Pleas I am begging on my knees not to make me regret going torps.
Since this is Sisi what I am thinking will happen is that it will get tested and hopefully the flight time will get adjusted to 10 second base that would be a reduction of flight time by 1/3. More over it would give a max range without rigs of about 50km which is probably more consistent both with scaling from heavy assault to torps and alot more acceptable to all the people that use torps.
I will say that it's probably inevitable that torp range will get reduced but really it was ridicilous that torps had the same range as cruise roughly but did more damage. This has needed really to be addressed for a long time.
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Valharu
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Posted - 2007.10.15 05:52:00 -
[134]
How do the new Torps, Javs and Rage compair to each other now? Are they balanced with compaired to each other and Cruise Missiles?
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RoCkEt X
Caldari
The Order of Chivalry
Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2007.10.15 06:18:00 -
[135]
Just to make a point, cruise ravens dont suck.
i'll post the relevant bits in my setup:
Hi - 6 cruise launcher II + cal navy missiles
Lo - 2 Ballistic Control II's.
568 damage per missile. 6.4 sec rof. dps @ 0% res = 621 DPS. (RNI)
not great, but it hurts and range is 220km. Not many ships can do that dps at such range. however torp ravens do put out more dps, and should not be nerfed like this.
-rocket.
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Pure Murder
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Posted - 2007.10.15 06:50:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Appalachia
I find this change unnecessary. Especially the explosion radius increase. All large weapons got a (signature)explosion radius of 400m, so no need to change that. As Tillek said there is no room for a target painter either.
The range is doable, but 6 seconds run-time for a torpedo is illogically low.
QFT!
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Xaosnik
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Posted - 2007.10.15 07:31:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Xaosnik on 15/10/2007 07:31:40
Mass reduction (boost agility) may be good for Raven in PVP with new torpedo, or Raven die - no PVE, no PVP...
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Damned Force
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:51:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Damned Force on 15/10/2007 08:53:47
Originally by: RoCkEt X
Just to make a point, cruise ravens dont suck.
i'll post the relevant bits in my setup:
Hi - 6 cruise launcher II + cal navy missiles
Lo - 2 Ballistic Control II's.
568 damage per missile. 6.4 sec rof. dps @ 0% res = 621 DPS. (RNI)
not great, but it hurts and range is 220km. Not many ships can do that dps at such range. however torp ravens do put out more dps, and should not be nerfed like this.
-rocket.
If damage/ missile is 568 and rof is 6.4sec how u get on 6 launchers more dps than 1 missile damage is? 
Between i think this change is nice. Torps would be more used in pvp maybe. Just the incrase of expo radius is not needed. Neither of the short range weapons get such "penality".
Maybe is a logical move, but pls CCP tell us the reason
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:47:00 -
[139]
Edited by: d026 on 15/10/2007 09:52:40
Originally by: Damned Force
Edited by: Damned Force on 15/10/2007 08:53:47
Originally by: RoCkEt X
Just to make a point, cruise ravens dont suck.
i'll post the relevant bits in my setup:
Hi - 6 cruise launcher II + cal navy missiles
Lo - 2 Ballistic Control II's.
568 damage per missile. 6.4 sec rof. dps @ 0% res = 621 DPS. (RNI)
not great, but it hurts and range is 220km. Not many ships can do that dps at such range. however torp ravens do put out more dps, and should not be nerfed like this.
-rocket.
If damage/ missile is 568 and rof is 6.4sec how u get on 6 launchers more dps than 1 missile damage is?
Between i think this change is nice. Torps would be more used in pvp maybe. Just the incrase of expo radius is not needed. Neither of the short range weapons get such "penality".
Maybe is a logical move, but pls CCP tell us the reason
max cruise dps with 3 x bcu is 518 damage per second (no implants) up to 253k. A rokh at 250k deals 321 dps, a Mega at 195k max optimal deals 350 dps.
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Adamai
Gallente
Naval Protection Corp
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:50:00 -
[140]
all this means is they took away alittle flight time to get you closer and they gave you faster refire
as for explosion radius well if you torps retaind their current exp radius wouldnt that be a little unfair considering they now fire alot faster i mean come on you still got more range than the average blaster
why shouldnt thr caldari have to think about diffrent ways to kill their opponents we galante do cant beat playing the optimal range game ...
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Damned Force
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Posted - 2007.10.15 09:59:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Adamai
all this means is they took away alittle flight time to get you closer and they gave you faster refire
as for explosion radius well if you torps retaind their current exp radius wouldnt that be a little unfair considering they now fire alot faster i mean come on you still got more range than the average blaster
why shouldnt thr caldari have to think about diffrent ways to kill their opponents we galante do cant beat playing the optimal range game ...
The sig radius is not needed. Torps still would have less damage than blasters. Where Blasterthorn can easy fit web, mwd, capbooster without dropping too much tank. On a raven u would need mwd to get close, web to force the enemy stay under 325m/s(explo veloc), target painter (to have the sig radius), cap booster to be able to have enough cap. So u have the chance to use 2 slot tank(lol) or an armor tank, where u would drop the BCU's, so u would have even less damage. And u still would have less dronespace and cargo too. So u dont tell me that the normal 400m sig radius would be so overpowered
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Kazamidori
Division 9 Golden Leaves
Izanagi Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:30:00 -
[142]
Contrary to what many people seem to think, tech 2 torps are rather balantly nerfed at its current form. There simply isn't much reason to use them aside from very specific situations.
Javelins: You fit a full rack of siege to get slightly better range, and what, about 30~40 better DPS over cruise Raven? B**** please.
Rage: Faction ammo is superior to this piece of crap in every single aspect except for the price tag. Faction torps are freakishly expensive.
Post-change torps basically inherit the characteristics of Rage torpedo without the capacitor penalties. Cap penalties are pretty bad, but considering nobody really uses rage torps due to the fact that anything going faster than a grandma driving a beat-up caddy would not take much damage from the damn thing, it kind of make sense.
Torp range is not the problem. Torp explosion radius is not the problem. Torp's velocity was a problem but that's getting fixed it seem, so the problem which remains...the problem which hampers torps from being effective against anything somewhat fast, is its explosion velocity.
FIX THAT.
---
Izanagi Alliance |
Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:39:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Adamai
all this means is they took away alittle flight time to get you closer and they gave you faster refire
as for explosion radius well if you torps retaind their current exp radius wouldnt that be a little unfair considering they now fire alot faster i mean come on you still got more range than the average blaster
why shouldnt thr caldari have to think about diffrent ways to kill their opponents we galante do cant beat playing the optimal range game ...
The sig radius is not needed. Torps still would have less damage than blasters. Where Blasterthorn can easy fit web, mwd, capbooster without dropping too much tank. On a raven u would need mwd to get close, web to force the enemy stay under 325m/s(explo veloc), target painter (to have the sig radius), cap booster to be able to have enough cap. So u have the chance to use 2 slot tank(lol) or an armor tank, where u would drop the BCU's, so u would have even less damage. And u still would have less dronespace and cargo too. So u dont tell me that the normal 400m sig radius would be so overpowered
The sig radius is fine - it gives you choice, the choice between extra damage or extra tank. Your Raven fit is awful - it doesn't need a MWD (bubbles aside) because it can warp to its tackler or use Jav (which I assume will changed from its current stats but will still remain a viable long-range option). It certainly doesn't need a web! Then you can fit a basic armour or shield tank and use remote reppers.
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Pbs
Pumpkin Scissors
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Posted - 2007.10.15 10:39:00 -
[144]
I think, this all fault of the CCP Dr.EyjoG. He has thought up to nerfed torpedoes. Dear Dr.EyjoG, please - struggle against farmers and solve the problems without involving fair players in your war.
Nerf torps in PvE kill ALL benefits of Caldari race.
Boost torps in PvP dont help Caldari at all.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 12:11:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Damned Force
Originally by: Adamai
all this means is they took away alittle flight time to get you closer and they gave you faster refire
as for explosion radius well if you torps retaind their current exp radius wouldnt that be a little unfair considering they now fire alot faster i mean come on you still got more range than the average blaster
why shouldnt thr caldari have to think about diffrent ways to kill their opponents we galante do cant beat playing the optimal range game ...
The sig radius is not needed. Torps still would have less damage than blasters. Where Blasterthorn can easy fit web, mwd, capbooster without dropping too much tank. On a raven u would need mwd to get close, web to force the enemy stay under 325m/s(explo veloc), target painter (to have the sig radius), cap booster to be able to have enough cap. So u have the chance to use 2 slot tank(lol) or an armor tank, where u would drop the BCU's, so u would have even less damage. And u still would have less dronespace and cargo too. So u dont tell me that the normal 400m sig radius would be so overpowered
Blasters have 5km optimal, and take cap to fire on top of that. Torps have 30km range and dont take cap to fire.
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Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.15 12:34:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Gypsio III
it doesn't need a MWD (bubbles aside) because it can warp to its tackler
By that logic MWD's are useless for anything but speed tanks and escaping bubbles.
What happens when you face more than one opponent? How useful are you to your gang slowboating across long distances applying no DPS? How much damage are you and/or your tackler going to take while your making your way between foes?
Any worthwhile Raven fit with these new torp stats will require at bare minimum an MWD, TP, and Cap Booster. Leaving either a 3 slot shield tank. A four slot armor tank means dropping to 1 BCU (an unrealistic drop in damage).
To make a Caldari ship suitable for close combat velocity and mass need looking at along with, in the Ravens case, migrating a high or low to a 7th mid... or is the Golem supposed to be the only PvP missile battleship?
Don't get me wrong, this is a big step in the right direction. Torps should be close range high damage. But previous nerfs to Caldari ships make them unable to perform at competitive levels at these ranges and need to be addressed.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.15 13:25:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
By that logic MWD's are useless for anything but speed tanks and escaping bubbles.
What happens when you face more than one opponent? How useful are you to your gang slowboating across long distances applying no DPS? How much damage are you and/or your tackler going to take while your making your way between foes?
I don't understand. This isn't a Mega with an optimal of a few km. The new torps will likely have a ~20 km range on a Raven, and Javs will be more likely 50-60 km, if we look at HAMs. Range isn't a problem! I don't normally fit a MWD on my HAM Drakes and itĘs never been a problem, aside from annoying ammo changes occasionally.
New torp Raven would require a painter, yes, and a cap booster to keep its repper/remote reppers running. That leaves you up to 8 slots for a shield tank (rigs and DC) or 6 for an armour tank (assuming 2 BCS), including rigs, in which case you can fit some ewar goodies as well. Some sort of fitting mods may be required, I don't have EFT to hand. And those tanks ignore the remote reppers that are almost an essential fit in the Raven's last two highslots - these new torp Ravens will work very effectively in pairs/threes, allowing mutual repping and focussed target painting.
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HeavyGunz 0331
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Posted - 2007.10.15 14:24:00 -
[148]
Wait can we even use a MWD in deadspace?
Man I wish I went turrets 
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Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
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Posted - 2007.10.15 16:24:00 -
[149]
I really hope these are just placeholder stats and not final. I like the idea of making torps shorter range but higher damage, but this is too far. Somewhere in between the TQ and current SiSi stats would be good to keep them relevant for PvE.
---
Proud Amarr pilot.
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Danjira Ryuujin
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Posted - 2007.10.15 16:55:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Danjira Ryuujin on 15/10/2007 16:55:59
As long as tech2 torpedos stay the same this is a huge pvp boost, and much needed in my opinion. Although I'm a bit concerned how the rof will affect dps due to reloading so frequently. Still for those complaining, Torps are only a rank 4 skill. If you can't use tech 2 torps now, you should start training. With javelin torpedos you can still shoot way past base lock range, and the extra velocity means less torpedos lost due to defenders, and explosion velocity means less "tracking issues". Its true they're more expensive but the dps increase should compensate in terms of isk per hour.
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