Originally by: Vyger

---

If I lose connection while walking around a station will my avatar run off in a random direction and go hide in a corner?

---

Originally by: Vulture Virtue

---

I was about to come over here and start *****ing about my torps, but then I checked it out on test.

All I can say is that I love my new missile SPEWING raven.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Guys, this is a huge torp buff. You now do as much dps with javs as you used to with faction torps. Except the javs move faster and have a much larger explosion velocity[750 vs 250]

All things equal, you got a 30km range increase and better "tracking". At the very least.

You can also change to missiles with higher explosion radius[which still hit mwding cruisers and above for full dps if they are webbed]. And do nearly 1k dps of any damage type to 30km with no tracking issues and no cap use.

And you are complaining that this is a nerf.

---

Originally by: Vyger

---

If I lose connection while walking around a station will my avatar run off in a random direction and go hide in a corner?

---

Originally by: Dr Ming

---

If you people can't figure out that this isn't a nerf, then you really shouldn't even bother worrying about it... because frankly, even if you had a solopwnmobile you'd still crash it.

---

Originally by: Amy Wang

---

Ravens with the velocity bonus arent hit all that hard by this, it is the phoon and the pest that get nerfed by this as they dont get a range/velocity bonus and also are short on grid and especially cpu to fit t2 sieges properly to use javelins which is not acceptable

---

Originally by: Akita T

---

HILLARIOUS, blast from the past.
Yeah, well, 6 seconds base flight time is quite abnormal too.
My suggestion back then was something akin to 10 seconds or so...

Oh well, guess people will restart using Javelin Torps then, won't they ?

---

Originally by: Chi Quan

---

how far do torps reach now? if it's under 30, it's VERY bad.

---

Originally by: CCP Morpheus

---

nerf ccp plz

---

Originally by: CCP Oveur

---

To the gankmobile!

---

Originally by: Leandro Salazar

---

Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 13/10/2007 10:37:45
On my Sisi CNR, T1 torps have 31km range, that is with velo and caldari BS skills at lvl4, a 5% velo implant and two hydraulic bay thruster rigs. So with maxskills and a 3rd rig, it is somewhere around 37km.

---

Originally by: Ruato

---

Ive been thinking about this and i simply cant figure what problem they are trying to fix with this change.

---

Originally by: Awox

---

Hahahah. This is great.

Ratting torp-ravens are now even easier to kill, orbit at 23km and hope they don't have javelins (most don't).. not to mention it will be more difficult to align and insta-warp to safety (approaching to get into range) and no more "look I can make 140km sniper bookmarks and npc from there" ravens.

Awox approves.

Also, I might fly a Siege Raven on one of my characters. Sounds like it has good damage potential!

---

Originally by: Princess Kohana

---

Edited by: Princess Kohana on 13/10/2007 04:03:10
Edited by: Princess Kohana on 13/10/2007 04:02:40
This is no joke... Here is the stats..

(qoutes are the nerf)

Juggernaut Torpedo

Volume: 0.1
(Explosion Velocity): 530m
(MAX FLIGHT TIME): 6.00 Sec.
Max Velocity: 1,500 m/sec
Tech Level: 1
Used with: Missile Launcher Siege
Inertia Modifer: 1,000
Kinetic Damage: 450
Base Shield Damage: 270.0
Base Armor Damage: 337.5

---

Originally by: James 315

---

Goon logistics may have the most efficient manner of griefing BoB that there is:every Goon tower in a BoB system is a punch in BoB's stomach and a middle finger to Dianabolic's crew

Originally by: Vulture Virtue

---

I don't know what people are thinking, but torps are freaking awesome now.

The change brings them line with other races high damage battleships. I agree that mass/agility sucks, but as long as you carry around at least 1 type of javelin ammo, you won't be out of range, ever.

I love my new torps!!!

---

Originally by: Wrayeth

---

i am stupid

---

Originally by: BugxEarl

---

Even without the range nerf, who in their shiny god damned @*!& use torps now a days aside from pummeling damage into tackled & immobilized capital ship?

Torps already takes too damn long to reach its target at max range, so after the javelin nerf nobody uses it anymore. Torps won't even land full damage against speed fitted BS/BC (or won't even hit at all) due to its hideously slow speed.

Currently, the only viable use for torps are for ratting in 0.0, or against capitals. Why is CCP trying to balance out a non-existent problem and add even more problems on top of it?

---

Originally by: podd0r

---

and they still can tank like no other bs

---

Quote:

---

and STILL outdamage other close range gank ships.

---

Originally by: podd0r

---

noes they nerfed our ship, boo f u c k i n g hoo
and they still can tank like no other bs and STILL outdamage other close range gank ships.

---

Originally by: Goumindog

---

i am stupid

---

Quote:

---

If you dont want to use a painter, load up jav torps and just deal with the fact that you do the same dps as you do right now, with the same explosion radius as you do right now with better explosion velocity than you do right now with torps that travel farther and are 3 times as fast as they are now.

---

Originally by: Wrayeth

---

Have you ever, you know, actually PvPed? My maelstrom does twice the DPS my raven does now, and will still do 25% more DPS than my raven post-change. Oh, and it can run a MWD and be mobile at the same time.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: Wrayeth

---

Can they out-ewar your raven?

---

well they could:)

Originally by: d026

---

well they could:)

---

Originally by: Krazy Bitsch

---

Originally by: Virtuality

---

In before the first troll.

---

i do believe you are too late for this....

Originally by: Goumindong

---

I suppose then you would love to show me this amasing Maelstrom that does 1437 dps with tech 2 equipment out to 30km and can perfectly choose its damage types?

Can the Hyperion, Abaddon, Dominix, etc out-tank your raven while doing 1150 dps out to 30km while being able to perfectly choose their damage types?

Can they out-ewar your raven?

---

Originally by: Ruato

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

I suppose then you would love to show me this amasing Maelstrom that does 1437 dps with tech 2 equipment out to 30km and can perfectly choose its damage types?

Can the Hyperion, Abaddon, Dominix, etc out-tank your raven while doing 1150 dps out to 30km while being able to perfectly choose their damage types?

Can they out-ewar your raven?

---

I suppose you could share this amazing raven setup that can tank, do great dps and ewar at the same time.

- If you fit for ewar, you cant shield tank
- If you fit basic pvp tools (scram, web, mwd, injector, and after the change, painter), you dont have any slots free for shield tank.
- if you fit for dps, you cant armor tank

Please do share.

---

Originally by: Pbs

---

"Dear developers, why do you hate caldari so much?" (c)

Last advantage of Caldari race has gone under a cat's tail. It sucks in PvP because of shield tank (med slots are busy), now they will start to suck in PvE, when torpedo-Raven was nerfed.

What next? Crow with 150 m/s speed limit and Scorpion with one med slot? And Drake with 2800 sec of shield regeneration?

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Instead of spending 20k isk to kill a 1.9mil rat with t1 torps, I now use 40k isk to kill the same rat but faster with javelin torps. Javelin torps do more damage than the current torps(even faction) and travel faster.

---

Originally by: Futher Bezluden

---

Torps now fit the Rocket->HAM->Torp progression like LightMis->HvyMis->Cruise.

They should have Large Pulse/Blaster/AC range, nice and up close so you tell what religion the enemy is.

---

Originally by: Gar Ddhen

---

Caldari pilots should never be flying alone in PvP.

Let your tacklers web and scram your targets, your recons damp and jam them, you just have to warp in up close and personal with that sexy 33% boost to ROF and spam torps into the blighters. The guiding mantra of Caldari PvP pilots however, is never fly alone.

If you are whining about PvE... tough, I got sick of seing isk farmers chaining belts in cloaking torp ravens, guys less than a month old with similar names, similar birth dates all in fecking Ravens in damned near every decent ratting system you care to mention... if this nerf/bonus hits them hard then good for it. Switch to cruise, they do the job just as well if somewhat slower.

I tend to agree the range is a little too short, personally I would rather see that addressed in another increase in speed rather than flight time. Bring it up to 35-40 km with maxed out skills and that would be gravy, and means they wont be outrun by cruisers so easily, even if without target painters they wont do a huge amount of damage to said cruiser... mebbe some folk should start getting cozy with those minmatar recon pilots out there.

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Javelin torps with the new launcher deals MORE dps than the current launcher with faction torps, is much faster, has longer range, and with much better explosion velocity. You dont want to do 950 DPS at 30km? Fine, then you can do 700 DPS up to 150km with javelins.

---

Originally by: Hoshi

---

Edited by: Hoshi on 14/10/2007 09:51:22

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Javelin torps with the new launcher deals MORE dps than the current launcher with faction torps, is much faster, has longer range, and with much better explosion velocity. You dont want to do 950 DPS at 30km? Fine, then you can do 700 DPS up to 150km with javelins.

---

Who is spreading misinformation now?
Post change Javelins will do 2.3% less dps than pre change caldari navy torps.
You can't use dread guristas as a measuring stick, it's not commonly available.

---

Originally by: Duckeye

---

I love my phoon now, CCP I want to hug you and have your children.

---

Originally by: Voin

---

Thinking of send my little friend aka E.T. to clean up headoffice of CCP...

[NUKED URLS]

To other who proof new nerf another PvE fact - mission The Vengeance impossible to do cause target always in there at 50 km radius on the MWD in deadspace.... funny is in it?

---

Originally by: Soulles

---

.....

There is some basic things to follow when creating a game heres a link to give the developers a clue.

http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2004/05/nerf.html

---

Quote:

---

no this is a bug, because if this is a nerf it would be impossible to impliment. For one they would have to change mission settings for caldari to make the enemies come closer than 15km

---

Quote:

---

This is NOT a nerf.
This IS a boost.

PVP only takes place within the 30km area anyway, so range is not an issue. In pvp any range greater than that, missles are larger inferior/useless compared to guns anyways.
Torpedoes are only used for when you are fighting large targets such as other bs. Those complaining that you cant take out vagabonds with your torpedoes now...we'll there was no way you could before anyway.
It helps balance ravens in the pve department when it come to killing pve bs. However missions won't really be any much slower. Cruise missles work about just as fast. (Hit targets much farther away, kills cruisers instantly)

Finally a caldari bs is given more pvp viability all anyone can do is complain complain complan.

---

Quote:

---

Javs won't solve this - they make it worse. Moreover, the primary reason for the use of jav torps before the jav nerf was the fact that they gave the torp raven a way to defend vs. smaller ships. This is no longer the case, as they now have the explosion radius of tech 1 TQ torps.

---

Originally by: Arrow Jumpdrive

---

About damn time I'd say. Kind of like Railguns and Blasters, Howitzers and AC's, Or Pulse and Tachs.
Every race non-missle user has a short and long range version of their weapons, Caldari pilots should face the level playing field as as gun users. I cant hit frigs at 15k with my 1400's, why the hell should torp users be able to hit one with torps?

---

Originally by: Arrow Jumpdrive

---

About damn time I'd say. Kind of like Railguns and Blasters, Howitzers and AC's, Or Pulse and Tachs.
Every race non-missle user has a short and long range version of their weapons, Caldari pilots should face the level playing field as as gun users. I cant hit frigs at 15k with my 1400's, why the hell should torp users be able to hit one with torps ?, [ trust me, painter drones with torps DRASTICALLY increases damage against small sig radius targets ].

---

Originally by: Ruato

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

I suppose then you would love to show me this amasing Maelstrom that does 1437 dps with tech 2 equipment out to 30km and can perfectly choose its damage types?

Can the Hyperion, Abaddon, Dominix, etc out-tank your raven while doing 1150 dps out to 30km while being able to perfectly choose their damage types?

Can they out-ewar your raven?

---

I suppose you could share this amazing raven setup that can tank, do great dps and ewar at the same time.

- If you fit for ewar, you cant shield tank
- If you fit basic pvp tools (scram, web, mwd, injector, and after the change, painter), you dont have any slots free for shield tank.
- if you fit for dps, you cant armor tank

Please do share.

---

Originally by: Transcendent Panda

---

Edited by: Transcendent Panda on 14/10/2007 20:18:32

Originally by: Arrow Jumpdrive

---

About damn time I'd say. Kind of like Railguns and Blasters, Howitzers and AC's, Or Pulse and Tachs.
Every race non-missle user has a short and long range version of their weapons, Caldari pilots should face the level playing field as as gun users. I cant hit frigs at 15k with my 1400's, why the hell should torp users be able to hit one with torps ?, [ trust me, painter drones with torps DRASTICALLY increases damage against small sig radius targets ].

---

ok smartass, since you're hellbent on having the exact same rules for each and every weapon type, I want

1) siege- and HAM launchers to have vastly reduced fittings
2) increased sig radius of high damage/close combat guns to reduce to-hit chance
3) torp explosion speed buffed in order to actually hurt moving ships smaller than battleships
4) HP of (all) long range missiles buffed so cutting incoming missile DPS in half won't be that likely anymore
5) flight time of long range missiles reduced to half or 1/4, speed increased to balance this
6) missile range modules
7) T1 long- and short-range ammo for same missile launcher type
8) un-gimped target painters
9) missile ship/agility speed un-nerfed
10) missile explosion "falloff" skill
11) guided missile precision applied to short range missiles as well

I think you missed some things in your "kind of like blah blah blah" comparison

---

Originally by: HeavyGunz 0331

---

I put this in the other post but in an attempt to change this I'm putting it here too.

Like stated about you change the whole purpose of the ONLY missile ship. You already screwed Caldari over with the Rokh gunboat but thats a whole different topic. Nerfing both the range and the expl radius is way too drastic. I see the point that you want one missile to be long (cruise) and one short but you screwed up yet again when you made them seperate skills. My suggestion is that you make a new launcher. I know that might be a bit redundant but cruise is for loooong range, torps could be med like 75k, and "heavy assault torps" could be close. Don't screw over the 6M SP characters like me who don't have the manueverability to stay that close. Or hey you can make Battleship 4 that has tank and missles bonus since you screwed the missle guys over before<--- I KID I KID!!! Seriously though the Golem (I know still in dev) would take as long to train for as the dread. Pleas I am begging on my knees not to make me regret going torps.

---

Originally by: Appalachia

---

I find this change unnecessary. Especially the explosion radius increase. All large weapons got a (signature)explosion radius of 400m, so no need to change that. As Tillek said there is no room for a target painter either.
The range is doable, but 6 seconds run-time for a torpedo is illogically low.

---

Originally by: RoCkEt X

---

Just to make a point, cruise ravens dont suck.

i'll post the relevant bits in my setup:

Hi - 6 cruise launcher II + cal navy missiles

Lo - 2 Ballistic Control II's.

568 damage per missile. 6.4 sec rof. dps @ 0% res = 621 DPS. (RNI)

not great, but it hurts and range is 220km. Not many ships can do that dps at such range. however torp ravens do put out more dps, and should not be nerfed like this.

-rocket.

---

Originally by: Damned Force

---

Edited by: Damned Force on 15/10/2007 08:53:47

Originally by: RoCkEt X

---

Just to make a point, cruise ravens dont suck.

i'll post the relevant bits in my setup:

Hi - 6 cruise launcher II + cal navy missiles

Lo - 2 Ballistic Control II's.

568 damage per missile. 6.4 sec rof. dps @ 0% res = 621 DPS. (RNI)

not great, but it hurts and range is 220km. Not many ships can do that dps at such range. however torp ravens do put out more dps, and should not be nerfed like this.

-rocket.

---

If damage/ missile is 568 and rof is 6.4sec how u get on 6 launchers more dps than 1 missile damage is?



Between i think this change is nice. Torps would be more used in pvp maybe. Just the incrase of expo radius is not needed. Neither of the short range weapons get such "penality".
Maybe is a logical move, but pls CCP tell us the reason

---

Originally by: Adamai

---

all this means is they took away alittle flight time to get you closer and they gave you faster refire

as for explosion radius well if you torps retaind their current exp radius wouldnt that be a little unfair considering they now fire alot faster i mean come on you still got more range than the average blaster

why shouldnt thr caldari have to think about diffrent ways to kill their opponents we galante do cant beat playing the optimal range game ...

---

Originally by: Damned Force

---

Originally by: Adamai

---

all this means is they took away alittle flight time to get you closer and they gave you faster refire

as for explosion radius well if you torps retaind their current exp radius wouldnt that be a little unfair considering they now fire alot faster i mean come on you still got more range than the average blaster

why shouldnt thr caldari have to think about diffrent ways to kill their opponents we galante do cant beat playing the optimal range game ...

---

The sig radius is not needed. Torps still would have less damage than blasters. Where Blasterthorn can easy fit web, mwd, capbooster without dropping too much tank. On a raven u would need mwd to get close, web to force the enemy stay under 325m/s(explo veloc), target painter (to have the sig radius), cap booster to be able to have enough cap. So u have the chance to use 2 slot tank(lol) or an armor tank, where u would drop the BCU's, so u would have even less damage. And u still would have less dronespace and cargo too. So u dont tell me that the normal 400m sig radius would be so overpowered

---

Originally by: Damned Force

---

Originally by: Adamai

---

all this means is they took away alittle flight time to get you closer and they gave you faster refire

as for explosion radius well if you torps retaind their current exp radius wouldnt that be a little unfair considering they now fire alot faster i mean come on you still got more range than the average blaster

why shouldnt thr caldari have to think about diffrent ways to kill their opponents we galante do cant beat playing the optimal range game ...

---

The sig radius is not needed. Torps still would have less damage than blasters. Where Blasterthorn can easy fit web, mwd, capbooster without dropping too much tank. On a raven u would need mwd to get close, web to force the enemy stay under 325m/s(explo veloc), target painter (to have the sig radius), cap booster to be able to have enough cap. So u have the chance to use 2 slot tank(lol) or an armor tank, where u would drop the BCU's, so u would have even less damage. And u still would have less dronespace and cargo too. So u dont tell me that the normal 400m sig radius would be so overpowered

---

Originally by: Gypsio III

---

it doesn't need a MWD (bubbles aside) because it can warp to its tackler

---

Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

---

By that logic MWD's are useless for anything but speed tanks and escaping bubbles.

What happens when you face more than one opponent? How useful are you to your gang slowboating across long distances applying no DPS? How much damage are you and/or your tackler going to take while your making your way between foes?

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Blasters have 5km optimal, and take cap to fire on top of that. Torps have 30km range and dont take cap to fire.

---

Originally by: UnitedStatesOfAmerica

---

Do people who make these changes even play Eve?

---

Originally by: Krazy Bitsch

---

Originally by: Virtuality

---

In before the first troll.

---

i do believe you are too late for this....

Originally by: Cythrawl

---

People keep mentioning rigs.

Problem is, missile rigs aren't working to increase range/velocity on sisi for torps. Atleast they weren't as of yesterday when I tried .....

---

Quote:

---

Do people who make these changes even play Eve?

---

Originally by: Miner Nine

---

Torps suck for PvP

They're only good at PvE and shooting POS. So the point of this change is too make them suck at shooting PvE and shooting POS.

Way to bring things full circle. Now everyone who has train Torp 5 will feel stupid. I feel pretty stupid training it to 4 now. Should of known that CCP must destroy the only way I support my horrible PvP habit.

I guess it's time for me to start mining Veld in a Rokh like CCP wants me too.

---

Originally by: Damned Force

---

Cant see why peoples thinks Torps sux in pvp. And after the change they even better. If u want to use your raven as snipership(with torps) u still can fit Javelins and hit from 158km, but u right in fleet they not the best, because u need 15 sec to impact. And thats why the new change is good(except the explo radius, what i cant understood why?). The new torps hit on a raven from 30km and other ships on 20 km what is nice. And have now the damage what is needed in small range pvp. So i dont see the problem

---

Originally by: Last Emperor

---

Are you kidding me ???? What new MAX range of this "charges", and what range from border of forcefield to controll tower ??? Torpdeos is siage weapon, as I see... so could you tell me, please, HOW I MUST ASSAULT LARGE POS WITH THIS NEW PEACE OF .... ?

---

Originally by: Damned Force

---

Torps was never ment as POS siege weapons, they should be small-middle range weapons against BS sized enemy. But yes, u was able to use against POSes, and u still can. Simple use Javelins. U get a bit less ship velocity, but in POS siege is that not the point. And u have around 100km range with a non bonused ship, 158km with a raven, and around the same DPS as before change with t1 ones.

---

Originally by: Damned Force

---

Originally by: Last Emperor

---

Are you kidding me ???? What new MAX range of this "charges", and what range from border of forcefield to controll tower ??? Torpdeos is siage weapon, as I see... so could you tell me, please, HOW I MUST ASSAULT LARGE POS WITH THIS NEW PEACE OF .... ?

---

Torps was never ment as POS siege weapons, they should be small-middle range weapons against BS sized enemy. But yes, u was able to use against POSes, and u still can. Simple use Javelins. U get a bit less ship velocity, but in POS siege is that not the point. And u have around 100km range with a non bonused ship, 158km with a raven, and around the same DPS as before change with t1 ones.

---

Originally by: Gypsio III

---

I don't understand. This isn't a Mega with an optimal of a few km. The new torps will likely have a ~20 km range on a Raven, and Javs will be more likely 50-60 km, if we look at HAMs. Range isn't a problem! I don't normally fit a MWD on my HAM Drakes and itÆs never been a problem, aside from annoying ammo changes occasionally.

New torp Raven would require a painter, yes, and a cap booster to keep its repper/remote reppers running. That leaves you up to 8 slots for a shield tank (rigs and DC) or 6 for an armour tank (assuming 2 BCS), including rigs, in which case you can fit some ewar goodies as well. Some sort of fitting mods may be required, I don't have EFT to hand. And those tanks ignore the remote reppers that are almost an essential fit in the Raven's last two highslots - these new torp Ravens will work very effectively in pairs/threes, allowing mutual repping and focussed target painting.

---

Originally by: Incantare

---

Edited by: Incantare on 13/10/2007 03:13:18


WTF

Cutting down flight time I can understand, despite the Raven being among the least mobile battleships and needing range, increasing damage and velocity in exchange makes perfect sense.

But requiring a painter to do full damage to battleships, aside from the tempest and geddon, is rage inducing.

It's not like Ravens have the mids to spare. I hope this isn't CCP's poorly thought out attempt at making painters more useful.

Cross training to Gallente was the best move I ever made, Caldari have fewer and fewer things going for them .

I sincerely hope these changes are reviewed and altered before hitting tranquility.

---

Originally by: mama guru

---

WTF!!!

is with you caldari players....

---

Originally by: mama guru

---

WTF!!!

is with you caldari players....

All of this is perfectly reasonable. Missiles need some sort of penalty, turrets have tracking, cap usage to worry about aswell besides fixed damage types(besides projectiles).

If i need a cap booster just to keep my guns running long enough as an amarr pilot then it is only fair that you guys should need a painter to do your otherwise nice, never miss static damage that can cover all damage types. sure you miss nano ships and other high speed ships with missiles but thats not the point.

---

Originally by: Krazy Bitsch

---

Originally by: Virtuality

---

In before the first troll.

---

i do believe you are too late for this....

Originally by: Cythrawl

---

Originally by: mama guru

---

WTF!!!
-Stuff

---

First of all, Armageddon (or any other Amarrian BS as a matter of fact) is not a great ratting ship. It's not a great solo ship either. I'm not saying its undo-able, but the solo capabilities of Geddon is not so different from that of a Raven.

Raven is not such a bad ship in small to mid-sized gang. It can project decent fire power at a decent range if paired with proper support due to the fact that Raven can bring decent amount of ECM (now the popular RSDs) which merit itself and the gang mates equally.

The problem comes with the fact that with Torps recieving increased explosion radius, the merit of using siege is reduced greatly since not only does the actual penalty be limited to shorter range, but also the reduction of 2 precious mid-slots which could have been used for EWar. Theoretical damage increase is nice on paper, but in practicality, it fails utterly.

However, if the Javelin torps will recieve damage increase accordingly, people will simply revert back to using Javelins.

Originally by: Kamikaaazi

---

torp ravens are allmost impossible to fit with any kind of tank atm.
6 siege II, 2 high empty
100mn mwd II, heavy cap inj II, web II, 24km scram II, sens booster II, tpainter II
LAR II, eanm II, dc II, bcs II, exp II

that takes 15533.2 out of 11875 grid available. That even with 2 high-s empty.
Also you wont still be doing maxed damage since you need at least 2 tpainters.

Lets try shield tanking raven.
6 siege II, 2 empty high
XL II, shield boost amp II, 24km scram, tpainter II, 100mn mwd II, heavy cap inj II
3 PDS II, BCS II, DC II

OOPS, 959.2/875 cpu used and 13780.2/13748.8 grid used.
Lets remember that you arent still doing full damage to some BS-s and you dont have a web. Also your shield resists are utterly crappy.

Really, raven has some really big problems and unless it gets a major grid boost it wont still be worth ****.

---

Originally by: BugxEarl

---

Originally by: Cythrawl

---

Originally by: mama guru

---

WTF!!!
-Stuff

---

Raven is not such a bad ship in small to mid-sized gang. It can project decent fire power at a decent range if paired with proper support due to the fact that Raven can bring decent amount of ECM (now the popular RSDs) which merit itself and the gang mates equally.

---

The raven will remain a superb gang ship. Probably the best damage dealer available if the patch goes trough. On the other hand the raven will be so extremely paper thin fit for pure torp gankage that im really woried dying to a frigate..

Originally by: d026

---

The raven will remain a superb gang ship. Probably the best damage dealer available if the patch goes trough. On the other hand the raven will be so extremely paper thin fit for pure torp gankage that im really woried dying to a frigate..

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Originally by: Kamikaaazi

---

torp ravens are allmost impossible to fit with any kind of tank atm.
6 siege II, 2 high empty
100mn mwd II, heavy cap inj II, web II, 24km scram II, sens booster II, tpainter II
LAR II, eanm II, dc II, bcs II, exp II

that takes 15533.2 out of 11875 grid available. That even with 2 high-s empty.
Also you wont still be doing maxed damage since you need at least 2 tpainters.

Lets try shield tanking raven.
6 siege II, 2 empty high
XL II, shield boost amp II, 24km scram, tpainter II, 100mn mwd II, heavy cap inj II
3 PDS II, BCS II, DC II

OOPS, 959.2/875 cpu used and 13780.2/13748.8 grid used.
Lets remember that you arent still doing full damage to some BS-s and you dont have a web. Also your shield resists are utterly crappy.

Really, raven has some really big problems and unless it gets a major grid boost it wont still be worth ****.

---

Thats because you're an unimaginative moron. This is the standard gank plated neutron mega setup:

7x Neutron Blaster Cannon II (CN AM L)

1x Quad 100mn mwd or T2(doesnt matter)
1x Warp Disruptor II
1x Fleeting Web
1x Medium eletrochem inject

3x MFS II
2x 1600mm plate
1x EANM II
1x DCU II

5x Ogre II

3x Trimark armor pump I.

1252 DPS, max velocity 969 m/s, effective hp 105k. Fits with a cpu implant.



This is a raven with the new torp changes

6x Siege Missile Launcher II (CN torpedos)

1x Quad Lif MWD
1x Target Painter II
1x Large Extender II
2x Invul II
1x Fleeting web OR Medium inject.

3x BCU II
1x 1600mm plate
1x DCU II

5x Hammerhead II, 5x Warrior II.

3x Core Defense Field Extender I

1105 DPS, max velocity 1013 m/s, effective hp 106k. Fits with a PG implant.

The mega has 150 more dps, and can scram, but the raven can start shooting earlier and do full damage from 30km, not to mention it can switch to javelin and hit 150k. In addition, the raven is slightly faster and has more flexibility in drones(for example you can carry a spare set of warriors for inties or a set of light ecm drones if you need to get away).

---

Originally by: d026

---

so you end up with 89k effective armor (this is with a 1600 plate) and you turn LIKE A BRICK (almost as sucky as a trimarked mega) but with -1xx dps and without a web.. if we add a web to the setup i dont have to tell you how your raven tank looks then..

---

Originally by: KD.Fluffy

---

torp raven is getting a huge buff here, its shocking people can't see that.

---

Originally by: d026

---

why should i fit a 1600mm plate and gimp my allready slow raven even more? ahh because it looks better in comparison to a mega.. without the 1600'plate i only achive 99k effective hp thats 6k less.. i mean you also could fit a shield extender to your mega couldnt you? and BTW you are missing a TP! so no web and no scram.. both mods required.. so - another invul..

---

Originally by: d026

---

Originally by: KD.Fluffy

---

torp raven is getting a huge buff here, its shocking people can't see that.

---

its shocking that you cant see that the raven will suck just as bevore.:)

---

Originally by: Vigaz

---

sig -> 530
rof -> -33%
range -> -80%

more damage & less tanking... mmm and perfect range for enemies to give ravens a lot of damage...

if u can choose, u wanna tell me that u prefer to gank with new torps?

inst better to warp @ 50km from the 'war field' and to do less damage? without the needing of a tp, and just with a mwd to keep distance...

for pvp it can be a discussion if is better or not (worst imho) for pve is for sure an immoral change... (what I have to do with my 7xCN siege? try to sell them for pvp? lol)

Pls Devs give ravens a chance to be useable for something... do not change rules in such strict way, I think itÆs unfair.

sig and rof changes r almost balanced (u wanna do more damage? Remove 1 tanking mid slot and add tp) but changing the range of 80% is unacceptable... Iv'e never heard about such big nerf (speaking about range)

---

Quote:

---

if u can choose, u wanna tell me that u prefer to gank with new torps?

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Originally by: d026

---

why should i fit a 1600mm plate and gimp my allready slow raven even more? ahh because it looks better in comparison to a mega.. without the 1600'plate i only achive 99k effective hp thats 6k less.. i mean you also could fit a shield extender to your mega couldnt you? and BTW you are missing a TP! so no web and no scram.. both mods required.. so - another invul..

---

A shield extender gives a mega a whopping 3k more hp, you could take off the plate but then you lose around 10k hp(5k less if you fit pdu instead). If you're gonna nitpick about 5% effective hp then the raven has about 90 dps tank with the natural shield regen, the mega has 15.

How am I missing a tp? A single tp puts a 400 sig bs(like the mega) to 540 sig(550 with SF 5). In addition, it does have a web, since the raven doesnt need cap to fire guns it doesnt need an injector as badly as does the mega.

I never said this was a solo setup. This is a GANG setup, a point is not required. Webs are rather nice though since tackler in web range=dead tackler.

---

Originally by: Gypsio III

---

Quote:

---

if u can choose, u wanna tell me that u prefer to gank with new torps?

---

Yes.

It's not my fault if you can't figure out how to fit and pilot a Raven. Stick to Gallente and their predictable cookiecutter fits before you're ready to advance to Caldari.

---

Originally by: Tral Kul

---

You know I really don't think people get it, if you want damage expect to lose range; that's almost a basic balancing tenet of CCP.

Does the Raven perhaps lose a little cause of range? Yes but it's still going to be a terror.

About the effective hp I have a question did you do that with favored or unfavored resists?

Because a mega taking explosive damage (unless sacerficing 2 lows to get it up) will be having a really bad day.

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Originally by: Vigaz

---

sig -> 530
rof -> -33%
range -> -80%

more damage & less tanking... mmm and perfect range for enemies to give ravens a lot of damage...

if u can choose, u wanna tell me that u prefer to gank with new torps?

inst better to warp @ 50km from the 'war field' and to do less damage? without the needing of a tp, and just with a mwd to keep distance...

for pvp it can be a discussion if is better or not (worst imho) for pve is for sure an immoral change... (what I have to do with my 7xCN siege? try to sell them for pvp? lol)

Pls Devs give ravens a chance to be useable for something... do not change rules in such strict way, I think itÆs unfair.

sig and rof changes r almost balanced (u wanna do more damage? Remove 1 tanking mid slot and add tp) but changing the range of 80% is unacceptable... Iv'e never heard about such big nerf (speaking about range)

---

Yes because doing 1100 DPS to more than 30km is balanced.

I posted a perfectly viable pvp raven setup that is very similar to the plated neutron mega setup.

CN torp launchers worthless? Too bad, how is that different from every other faction gun?

---

Originally by: Leandro Salazar

---

There are new Jav torp stats on Sisi now. Exp radius is down to 350m, missile velocity down to 2700. So far so good.
But flight time down to 5 secs if I glimpsed it correctly just before the server shutdown...

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Originally by: d026

---

why should i fit a 1600mm plate and gimp my allready slow raven even more? ahh because it looks better in comparison to a mega.. without the 1600'plate i only achive 99k effective hp thats 6k less.. i mean you also could fit a shield extender to your mega couldnt you? and BTW you are missing a TP! so no web and no scram.. both mods required.. so - another invul..

---

A shield extender gives a mega a whopping 3k more hp, you could take off the plate but then you lose around 10k hp(5k less if you fit pdu instead). If you're gonna nitpick about 5% effective hp then the raven has about 90 dps tank with the natural shield regen, the mega has 15.

How am I missing a tp? A single tp puts a 400 sig bs(like the mega) to 540 sig(550 with SF 5). In addition, it does have a web, since the raven doesnt need cap to fire guns it doesnt need an injector as badly as does the mega.

I never said this was a solo setup. This is a GANG setup, a point is not required. Webs are rather nice though since tackler in web range=dead tackler.

---

Originally by: Tenebrious

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Originally by: Vigaz

---

sig -> 530
rof -> -33%
range -> -80%

more damage & less tanking... mmm and perfect range for enemies to give ravens a lot of damage...

if u can choose, u wanna tell me that u prefer to gank with new torps?

inst better to warp @ 50km from the 'war field' and to do less damage? without the needing of a tp, and just with a mwd to keep distance...

for pvp it can be a discussion if is better or not (worst imho) for pve is for sure an immoral change... (what I have to do with my 7xCN siege? try to sell them for pvp? lol)

Pls Devs give ravens a chance to be useable for something... do not change rules in such strict way, I think itÆs unfair.

sig and rof changes r almost balanced (u wanna do more damage? Remove 1 tanking mid slot and add tp) but changing the range of 80% is unacceptable... Iv'e never heard about such big nerf (speaking about range)

---

Yes because doing 1100 DPS to more than 30km is balanced.

I posted a perfectly viable pvp raven setup that is very similar to the plated neutron mega setup.

CN torp launchers worthless? Too bad, how is that different from every other faction gun?

---

Don't forget that not only do they do 1.1k DPS but they can choose their damage type as well. The raven will be hands down the most damaging ship in the game if this goes through. I really hope CCP finds some midpoint between these new torps and the old. The damage is a bit absurd.

---

Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Originally by: d026

---

why should i fit a 1600mm plate and gimp my allready slow raven even more? ahh because it looks better in comparison to a mega.. without the 1600'plate i only achive 99k effective hp thats 6k less.. i mean you also could fit a shield extender to your mega couldnt you? and BTW you are missing a TP! so no web and no scram.. both mods required.. so - another invul..

---

A shield extender gives a mega a whopping 3k more hp, you could take off the plate but then you lose around 10k hp(5k less if you fit pdu instead). If you're gonna nitpick about 5% effective hp then the raven has about 90 dps tank with the natural shield regen, the mega has 15.

How am I missing a tp? A single tp puts a 400 sig bs(like the mega) to 540 sig(550 with SF 5). In addition, it does have a web, since the raven doesnt need cap to fire guns it doesnt need an injector as badly as does the mega.

I never said this was a solo setup. This is a GANG setup, a point is not required. Webs are rather nice though since tackler in web range=dead tackler.

---

Either they both get a warp scram or neither do, because if your going on the fact that your in a gang, a mega can get an additional mid to work with. As was said before you cannot use the assumption of your gang will take care of it unless you apply it to both setups.

And while those ships keep similar damage on BSs when you start to target cruisers the ravens w/1TP are going to lose more DPS then the mega. In the end your not going to see any caldari pilots who trained another races short range gank ship go back to a siege raven for long.

---

Quote:

---

yeah i cant figure out... but i'm glad that u r arrived here... so pls tell me master caldari:what's the way to be a caldari pilot? pls forgive me but now i understand that i need ur teaching. i thought that in general was a good idea with a raven to keep range from enemy. but now i'm sure that after ur lessons... i'm going to warp @ 0km and kill'em all... thank you master to let me be a better noob on caldari, 1 day ill be like u... only if i'm really lucky... of course.

---

Originally by: Tenebrious

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Yes because doing 1100 DPS to more than 30km is balanced.

I posted a perfectly viable pvp raven setup that is very similar to the plated neutron mega setup.

CN torp launchers worthless? Too bad, how is that different from every other faction gun?

---

Don't forget that not only do they do 1.1k DPS but they can choose their damage type as well. The raven will be hands down the most damaging ship in the game if this goes through. I really hope CCP finds some midpoint between these new torps and the old. The damage is a bit absurd.

---

Originally by: d026

---

Edited by: d026 on 17/10/2007 14:50:30
Edited by: d026 on 17/10/2007 14:48:06

Originally by: Tral Kul

---

You know I really don't think people get it, if you want damage expect to lose range; that's almost a basic balancing tenet of CCP.

Does the Raven perhaps lose a little cause of range? Yes but it's still going to be a terror.

About the effective hp I have a question did you do that with favored or unfavored resists?

Because a mega taking explosive damage (unless sacerficing 2 lows to get it up) will be having a really bad day.

---

if you fit the raven correctly with webber and 2 x tp, worst resist effective hp on the raven is 88k (therm) on the mega tough its 95k (exp) factoring in slaves the raven get 104k the mega 122k. Also consider that the mega still does more dps, is more agile tough a lil slower, can run its mwd as long as cap charges last and has a scrambler..

Raven with exp hast do deal 95k dmg to a non slave mega.
Mega with void has to deal 89k dmg to a no slave Raven. (oh i forgot to factoring in drones tough..)

---

Originally by: Zyondor

---

Edited by: Zyondor on 17/10/2007 19:55:28
SiSi Torp Stats for T1 and T2

Torp Stats

---

Originally by: Phantom Slave

---

I haven't read the whole thread, just a few pages, and I haven't seen much argument from the PvE side of things.

With a raven's torps being cut down to under 30km, how are they expected to kill NPC BS's in missions, that are orbiting at 35-40km? T2 ammo? Why should they have to use T2 torps just to do PvE missions? Throw on an AB and kill their cap/tank?

If I've missed something somewhere, then by all means correct me.

---

Originally by: Phantom Slave

---

I haven't read the whole thread, just a few pages, and I haven't seen much argument from the PvE side of things.

With a raven's torps being cut down to under 30km, how are they expected to kill NPC BS's in missions, that are orbiting at 35-40km? T2 ammo? Why should they have to use T2 torps just to do PvE missions? Throw on an AB and kill their cap/tank?

If I've missed something somewhere, then by all means correct me.

---

Originally by: Phantom Slave

---

I haven't read the whole thread, just a few pages, and I haven't seen much argument from the PvE side of things.

With a raven's torps being cut down to under 30km, how are they expected to kill NPC BS's in missions, that are orbiting at 35-40km? T2 ammo? Why should they have to use T2 torps just to do PvE missions? Throw on an AB and kill their cap/tank?

If I've missed something somewhere, then by all means correct me.

---

Originally by: Doom Dominix

---

Originally by: Phantom Slave

---

I haven't read the whole thread, just a few pages, and I haven't seen much argument from the PvE side of things.

With a raven's torps being cut down to under 30km, how are they expected to kill NPC BS's in missions, that are orbiting at 35-40km? T2 ammo? Why should they have to use T2 torps just to do PvE missions? Throw on an AB and kill their cap/tank?

If I've missed something somewhere, then by all means correct me.

---

0.0 ratting with raven is also dead with this nerf. One has only few options: To switch to cruise missiles (with bad damage) or to train for a non-caldari HAC. (Why non-caldari? For example they are vastly inferior in comparison to gallente in terms of dps.)

Conclusion: Raven pilots doing PVE activities in 0.0 belts require a cruise missile boost!

---

Originally by: Phantom Slave

---

I haven't read the whole thread, just a few pages, and I haven't seen much argument from the PvE side of things.

With a raven's torps being cut down to under 30km, how are they expected to kill NPC BS's in missions, that are orbiting at 35-40km? T2 ammo? Why should they have to use T2 torps just to do PvE missions? Throw on an AB and kill their cap/tank?

If I've missed something somewhere, then by all means correct me.

---

Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif

---

Either they both get a warp scram or neither do, because if your going on the fact that your in a gang, a mega can get an additional mid to work with. As was said before you cannot use the assumption of your gang will take care of it unless you apply it to both setups.

---

Quote:

---

And while those ships keep similar damage on BSs when you start to target cruisers the ravens w/1TP are going to lose more DPS then the mega. In the end your not going to see any caldari pilots who trained another races short range gank ship go back to a siege raven for long.

---

Originally by: Zyondor

---

Edited by: Zyondor on 17/10/2007 19:55:28
SiSi Torp Stats for T1 and T2

Torp Stats

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Whats the mega gonna do with that one mid? In reality in gangs the neutron plated mega setup doesnt change at all, they would still bring, point, web, mwd, and injector.

The mega wont even be able to hit cruisers.

As for the new torp changes. WTF. I mean seriously, I might as well quit amarr and start training for caldari online. The ONLY benefit pulse lasers had was at the battleship level it had a nice 45km optimal, which was useful in medium sized engagements.

Now the raven outdamages the geddon and doesnt take cap to fire its guns, and can change damage types where as the geddon is stuck with EM. I might as well put that torp 5 to good use. You caldari pilots dont know how good you have it till you try amarr.

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Rabble Rabble

---

Originally by: Dark Flare

---

To everyone going "OMG THIS IS NERF IT IS TERRIBLE" please shush before the devs put it back.


This is the best thing that's happened to Caldari (and the Typhoon) in ages.

I mean ffs, you whine about being rubbish at PvP for years, and when the devs give you a buff you start complaining about it as a nerf?

---

Originally by: Nicoli Voldkif

---

Mega can hit a webbed cruisers just fine, I've lost a few EWAR cruisers to them. That said I didn't say it didn't lose DPS its just that the DPS loss from torps is usually worse.

---

Quote:

---

That said a RSD with lock time or Lock range depending on the target would work great. I fly a mega and can think of several useful things I could toss in the mid. That said if you want to make a comparison between mega and

---

Quote:

---

Raven fits things like being able to scramble is a key difference in any fit that will be playing around the 24km range. Also remember that the raven is far easier to hit when you start adding those shield extenders and Shield rigs.

When it comes down to it the raven is just not setup to be a up close fighter. With the new torp changes it just doesn't pull the way that you think it might. Mostly because there is a lot of conditions that are required to make it work.

---

Originally by: Miner Nine

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

Rabble Rabble

---

I'm sorry, do you actually believe what you're posting? Or are you posting cause you Amarr and happy to see someone else get shank? Cause your setups are horrible, you have the illusion that Caldari Torp boats are actually semi-fast and with high agility. Anyways, I thought the cool thing about Lasers were not having to carry ammo, no flight time, and they hurt. I also don't get why you keep trying to compair apples and oranges. Missles are not Guns or Lasers. Lasers are not Guns or Missles. Guns are not Lasers or Missles.

Now that we got that cleard up. Still think Torps should be left alone, but you know. Caldari having one ship good at Ratting was one ship too many. I really don't see people putting MWD and tackling gear on their Ravens or whatever to shoot torps. Might as well just put Smart bombs on at that point for PvP and if you're tackling while doing PvE something is horrible wrong.

---