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TradeUnion first	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:17:00 - [211] On a regular mission you will fire about 1500 torps. 1500 x 600 = 900 000 ISK. If they were regular, it could cost 1500 x 200 = 300 000 ISK. The difference is 600 000 ISK If I can finish the mission faster - let's say 5 minutes faster, this is 1 666 667 ISK per hour more (if we take for granted that a mission runner makes 20 mil per hour). Simple math - I make 1 million more per hour with the new setup. Even if some torpedoes are destroyed on their way to the target I will still be on profit as a whole. So? Buff or not?
ChiShen Fox-Force-Five Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:18:00 - [212] Please at least boost the stats of the Torp Batteries on POS's 45km range 24 sec ROF more expl radius and less expl velocity. That thing won't hit for ****.
Incantare Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:23:00 - [213] Originally by: TradeUnion first This is a big buff to the Raven versatility. Don't whine about the regular torpedoes, think about the new versatility of the t2 siege launchers - you can choose between short range, lots of damage and long range, high speed with still very good damage. I think this is a buff. Debating wether it is a nerf or a buff doesn't make sense because it's both really. A buff to RoF and a nerf to range and explosion radius. I imagine the conversation at CCP went like this: Dev 1 : "We need to nerf Caldari's PvE ability, it isn't fair towards the other races." Dev 2 "Ok, but the Raven isn't all that great in PvP, we need to buff something, how about more damage for more range?" Dev 1: "Then we'll have to nerf their explosion radius so if they want that damage they have to give up tank or have someone else paint for them. We can't have the Raven be competitive." Dev 2: "Sounds good."
Klame	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:44:00 - [214] Yes I think there is no point in debating about "nerf or not". The main problem in pvp and advantage in pve of the caldari ship was they had a great range of fire with lower dps than with turrets weapon. Now a raven pilot can choose beteween long range engagement with cruise missile and low range-high DPS with torpedoes. That's the same philosophy with other weapons and I'm glad to see that CCP realise caldari where a little left behind in classical PVP situation (due to they useless huge range and lower DPS). won't be able to warp out before the torpedoes reach him because you'll have to be very closer now.
Sky Marshal Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:54:00 - [215] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 14/10/2007 20:54:56 I see less interest to PVP in a Raven Torp with this nerf than the situation before, same if before, I never used Raven Torp. This is bad, doctor ?
thisiswrong	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:57:00 - [216] Originally by: TradeUnion first mission runner makes 20 mil per hour LOL!
Mad Axe Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:29:00 - [217] This will also bring the Scorp closer to the Dominix/Apoc/Typhoon becouse now it can finaly bring some damage, especialy since you can fit a TP on without a problem. This is what Caldari need, a t1 battleship that can do difrent things!
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:34:00 - [218] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ogul Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:23:23 Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:21:30 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ogul In that case you could fit a 5 slot shield tank and a painter but I wouldn't expect this setup to perform well in the vast majority of scenarios. And this is different from the maelstrom how? Last time I checked the maelstrom was a turret ship (again 400m sig for its guns) that didn't need target painters. And its bonus is like a built-in shield boost amp (in effect: an additional mid slot). Last I checked fall-off doesnt mean free damage, maelstrom with 3 falloff rigs is doing much less dps than the raven with 3 velocity rigs at 45km, not to mention the raven can just switch to javelin and still do 800DPS. A maelstrom in a tier 3, and a raven is a tier 2 battleship. And yet the maelstrom can't come ahead. Minmatars take the stick again.
Incantare Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:42:00 - [219] Edited by: Incantare on 14/10/2007 21:46:04 Originally by: Vanessa Vale A maelstrom in a tier 3, and a raven is a tier 2 battleship. And yet the maelstrom can't come ahead. Minmatars take the stick again. Maelstrom has the best battleship tank in the game. It does instant damage as well. If you think the Raven is a better PvP ship than the Mael you are delusional.
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:49:00 - [220] Originally by: Incantare Originally by: Vanessa Vale Last I checked fall-off doesnt mean free damage, maelstrom with 3 falloff rigs is doing much less dps than the raven with 3 velocity rigs at 45km, not to mention the raven can just switch to javelin and still do 800DPS. A maelstrom in a tier 3, and a raven is a tier 2 battleship. And yet the maelstrom can't come ahead. Minmatars take the stick again. Maelstrom has the best battleship tank in the game. It does instant damage as well. If you think the Raven is a better PvP ship than the Mael you are delusional. Care to read what I wrote and address it instead of just rambling?
Mini Puce	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:55:00 - [221] Anyway caldari ships sucks for PVP, except crow and falcon. No one cares about that torp changes.
Incantare Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:02:00 - [222] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Care to read what I wrote and address it instead of just rambling? I just did, but since you don't get it I'll spell it out. The Maelstrom gets a RoF bonus and a tanking bonus and 100 m3 drone bay. The Raven gets a RoF bonus and a velocity bonus (range). The Maelstrom tanks far better, the Maelstrom does more damage up close. The Raven does more damage at medium range, which incidentally isn't all that useful due to disruptor range. The Maelstrom does more damage at sniper ranges due to flight time. They're different ships, with different strengths. What did you expect that just because the Mael is tier 3 it should outdo the Raven at all ranges? You have no basis to complain.
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:38:00 - [223] Originally by: Incantare Edited by: Incantare on 14/10/2007 21:46:04 Originally by: Vanessa Vale A maelstrom in a tier 3, and a raven is a tier 2 battleship. And yet the maelstrom can't come ahead. Minmatars take the stick again. Maelstrom has the best battleship tank in the game. It does instant damage as well. If you think the Raven is a better PvP ship than the Mael you are delusional. Comparing Raven and Mael, completely different tiers, is like comparing the cyclone to the drake. 1400mm T2 arties miss. 800mm T2 AC miss. Cruise and Torps will always hit if within range. They do crap damage vs fast small stuff -wow, so do L pulse, blasters and AC's due to tracking. Raven has problems fitting 6 siege II and uberness -try fitting Tempest with full 1400 II's (You fit mwd, RCU, and have almost nothing for tank). Torp raven can still fit a shield tank. Raven won't be uber vs pos, how many pulse geddons/apocs/abaddons, blaster hyperions/megathrons, and 800mm Tempests/Maelstroms do you see shooting POS? None. They use long range weapons -use cruise missiles. THUKKER -Be Paranoid
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:45:00 - [224] Quote: Cruise and Torps will always hit if within range. No, they don't. Why do people post this over and over again?
Incantare Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:46:00 - [225] Edited by: Incantare on 14/10/2007 22:47:00 Originally by: Futher Bezluden Comparing Raven and Mael, completely different tiers, is like comparing the cyclone to the drake. 1400mm T2 arties miss. 800mm T2 AC miss. Cruise and Torps will always hit if within range. They do crap damage vs fast small stuff -wow, so do L pulse, blasters and AC's due to tracking. Raven has problems fitting 6 siege II and uberness -try fitting Tempest with full 1400 II's (You fit mwd, RCU, and have almost nothing for tank). Torp raven can still fit a shield tank. Raven won't be uber vs pos, how many pulse geddons/apocs/abaddons, blaster hyperions/megathrons, and 800mm Tempests/Maelstroms do you see shooting POS? None. They use long range weapons -use cruise missiles. I'm well aware of the diffrences between guns and missiles. Also, I'm not the one who brought up the Mael/Raven comparison. Do you really think the Maelstrom is "Minmatar getting the stick" because it doesn't outdamage the Raven at every range? I don't.
Incantare Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:48:00 - [226] Edited by: Incantare on 14/10/2007 22:49:32 Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: Cruise and Torps will always hit if within range. No, they don't. Why do people post this over and over again? Because hitting for 0.0 damage is awesome!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:55:00 - [227] Remove and redesign Caldari to be honest. Swap all missiles to guns and make missiles extra powerful but a secondary weapon. Change all missile bonuses to gun bonuses. Scorpion - 5 gun hard points, 1 missile hard points Raven - 6 gun hard points, 3 missile hard points Rokh - 8 gun hard points, 1 missile hard points --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
SexehGallente Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:56:00 - [228] Edited by: SexehGallente on 14/10/2007 22:56:32 Yea, so make it say "Your light/heavy/siege/cruise launcher has missed XXXX person". Or "Your light/heavy/siege/cruise launcher barely scratches XXXX doing 4.9 damage". SO we never always hit !!
Calimor Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.15 01:01:00 - [229] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Remove and redesign Caldari to be honest. Swap all missiles to guns and make missiles extra powerful but a secondary weapon. Change all missile bonuses to gun bonuses. Scorpion - 5 gun hard points, 1 missile hard points Raven - 6 gun hard points, 3 missile hard points Rokh - 8 gun hard points, 1 missile hard points They're not gonna bother doing such a massive redesign. I for one would be happy if they took away this nerf. No one was ***ing about torpedos before, except if by ***ing you mean "complaining about how useless t2s are". Nerfing t1s is really sad.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.15 01:11:00 - [230] I don't get why people see this as a nerf. Torps now finally have a use outside of afking lvl 4s in motsu.
SexehGallente Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.15 01:20:00 - [231] Edited by: SexehGallente on 15/10/2007 01:22:30 Originally by: Elmicker I don't get why people see this as a nerf. Torps now finally have a use outside of afking lvl 4s in motsu. You need 2 painters to get nearly full damage on a phoon, 1 painter for nearly full damage on a mega. It's a nerf to mission runners, for a very slim chance it might be somewhat decent in small gang pvp...
Mush Morton Caldari Wolf Echelon Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.10.15 01:27:00 - [232] I'm perfectly content to trade range for damage. Even though I feel 30km is a bit too short, I can live with it. Increasing the explosion radius of torps is simply unacceptable however, and will really nerf the ability of the raven to balance its offensive and defensive capabilities. A target painter is simply not a viable option, given the tight constraints already placed on the Raven's med slots for anything approaching a decent tank; and asking a buddy to tag along in a mission and paint things is just silly. CCP could have a bloody riot on its hands if they actually go through with the torp change as it's currently listed. For the love of everything that is good, decent, and Caldari, please do not increase the explosion radius of our torpedoes. ----------------- Molon Labe!
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:19:00 - [233] Originally by: SexehGallente You need 2 painters to get nearly full damage on a phoon, 1 painter for nearly full damage on a mega. Utter bull**. One t2 painter puts a mega into 550 sig(544 with sig focusing 4), which means you will hit for full damage. As for phoons, the current torp with its explosion radius of 400 doesnt do full damage either, with a painter the new torp will do the same damage as the current one does to the phoon. Quote:** It's a nerf to mission runners, for a very slim chance it might be somewhat decent in small gang pvp... Javelin torps.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:20:00 - [234] Originally by: Mush Morton A target painter is simply not a viable option, given the tight constraints already placed on the Raven's med slots for anything approaching a decent tank; and asking a buddy to tag along in a mission and paint things is just silly. CCP could have a bloody riot on its hands if they actually go through with the torp change as it's currently listed. For the love of everything that is good, decent, and Caldari, please do not increase the explosion radius of our torpedoes. Target painting drones.
Zolian	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:31:00 - [235] So we have to give up damage (drones) and a lot of range for maybe a slight increase in damage. That doesn't sound like a good deal to me. I'll stick to javs thanks, the new t1 torps sound fairly gimped.
Mush Morton Caldari Wolf Echelon Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:32:00 - [236] I don't really see that as a solution if you consider the relatively small drone bay Caldari ships are forced to endure. If we use our drone bay for target painting drones, the Raven will be left without the ability to defend itself against much smaller targets (i.e. frigates and cruisers in missions). Currently, a ratting Raven can use 5 Vespas for defense against small targets. Requiring us to surrender our drone space for target painting drones removes the last paltry line of defense against smaller threats, and could hardly be viewed as an adequate compromise. ----------------- Molon Labe!
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:37:00 - [237] few questions do people even use torps outside of 20km in pvp on tq now? (i can only think of shooting pos/cap ships) and does anyone fly a solo pvp raven now? (if so dont they ahve to fit mwd/scram/web/cap booster/tank?) and fitting 3 polycarbons to a raven to get crusier like agility, how is that having to have rigs to do its job? to me that sounds like giving it some edge. and woah using long range weapons (cruise) to mission thats like using rail guns instead of blasters. the big complainers are mostly mission runners/ratters I'm willing to bet
Zolian	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:42:00 - [238] I'm a PvPer. I couldn't care less about this nerfing some mission runners income as cruise is still a very valid option. What I'm having trouble seeing is how this will help the Raven in close range engagements when you have to fit several painters (or give up your drones but they don't paint as effectively) and gimp your tank. Or rely on someone else to do it but well... Ravens are already gang ships, why make them even more reliant on others? I don't like that one bit.
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:43:00 - [239] Originally by: Mush Morton I don't really see that as a solution if you consider the relatively small drone bay Caldari ships are forced to endure. If we use our drone bay for target painting drones, the Raven will be left without the ability to defend itself against much smaller targets (i.e. frigates and cruisers in missions). Currently, a ratting Raven can use 5 Vespas for defense against small targets. Requiring us to surrender our drone space for target painting drones removes the last paltry line of defense against smaller threats, and could hardly be viewed as an adequate compromise. Unless "Drone Bandwidth" pans out, granting more drone space. Then it becomes a matter of resource management, it deal with different situations. _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
Dao2SKP Shillelagh Corp.	Posted - 2007.10.15 04:12:00 - [240] A good chance imo, but not one that should be taken too far :/ 30km or so for torps is going far ;p Least that's what I think.... Maybe 35-40k base

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