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Bacci Galu Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 05:50:00 - [1] Can someone confirm if CCP (and there lack of wisdom) are nerfing torps AGAIN ?? Maker of thy sig Yes i do make sigs, banners, corp logo's ect...
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.13 05:52:00 - [2] Since you asked so nicely...no. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Calimor Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 06:13:00 - [3] Yes they are. Range has been DRASTICALLY reduced on SiSi (to about 27km with amazing skills). It's a total absurd. CCP, please reconsider this.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.13 06:16:00 - [4] They nerfed them so hard, they also drastically increased the ROF on siege launchers at the same time (my typhoon had 7.8 ROF w/ siege II). I'd call it a torp change, actually.
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2007.10.13 06:18:00 - [5] If this is true its just ******. Torps do NOT need to be nerfed. T2 Torps are already useless, now normal Torps will be useless as well? DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale! THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!**
Myra2007	Posted - 2007.10.13 06:25:00 - [6] Edited by: Myra2007 on 13/10/2007 06:25:46 Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated If this is true its just ********. Torps do NOT need to be nerfed. T2 Torps are already useless, now normal Torps will be useless as well? Do you actually understand what -25% ROF means?
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.10.13 06:29:00 - [7] WTF? I just trained Torps. Why the nerf? they are slow as all hell and only good for shooting stationary stuff.
Myra2007	Posted - 2007.10.13 06:30:00 - [8] Originally by: Calimor Yes they are. Range has been DRASTICALLY reduced on SiSi (to about 27km with amazing skills). It's a total absurd. CCP, please reconsider this. You might want to reconsider that if you have a look at the new rof of siege launchers, plz.
Dr Ming Mindworks	Posted - 2007.10.13 06:31:00 - [9] The RoF of Torp launchers was increased substantially. The speed of T1 torps was nudged up a little, but their flight time was drastically decreased. The explosion radius of T1 torps was increased. T2 torps have not had their stats changed. End result: T2 torps were buffed. T1 torps were changed, and got better in some aspects, and worse in others.
Helluin Caldari Stimulus	Posted - 2007.10.13 06:32:00 - [10] Edited by: Helluin on 13/10/2007 06:32:49 This is a huge boost to torpedoes. Their range gets brought in line with most of the other unguided missiles (see rockets, HAMs) but the damage gets drastically increased due to the ROF bonus. The only thing I am curious about is their attempt to make TP's required fitting for Ravens by increasing the explosion radius.
Tractormech Caldari Fortune's Fools	Posted - 2007.10.13 06:37:00 - [11] I like how people cry nerf nerf nerf at any change whatsoever even considered. If they were to change it to the way it is on SISI it is nothing but a boost. A huge one. How much bs on bs pvp occurs over the 30km range anyways? Do not say fleet battles, as missles are already useless for this situation. The only thing where it may be lessened is all the mission runners running around in torp ravens. Heaven forbid the raven gets less mission use. (nevermind cruises work just as well if not better most of the time) Basically they are giving torps a 25% damage increase.
ChimeraRouge Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.10.13 07:49:00 - [12] How does this affect mission runners who use torps in missions? I thought torps were better for missions than cruise.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.10.13 07:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Tractormech Basically they are giving torps a 25% damage increase. Against a standard BS (400m signature radius) it's a 0.6% damage increase due to the increased explosion radius. Only against tier 3 bs are this really a damage increase. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Serge Tahlon Gallente Templars of Space Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 08:22:00 - [14] i think for missions this would mean you acctually need to get in range. but once there the ROF increase will probably make up for the time you spent getting into optimal. same as every gunboat mission runner who needs to get into optimal. will try on the sisi now and see how it is.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 08:53:00 - [15] Edited by: Gamesguy on 13/10/2007 08:54:22 Originally by: Hoshi Originally by: Tractormech Basically they are giving torps a 25% damage increase. Against a standard BS (400m signature radius) it's a 0.6% damage increase due to the increased explosion radius. Only against tier 3 bs are this really a damage increase. Thats a ***** lie. Its called a target painter, you ever see a blasterboat without a web? Its the same idea. As for the OP, torps were drastically** buffed. A raven with faction torps now do in the neighborhood of 900+ DPS before drones. Its a massive damage increase.
Ciuci FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.13 08:55:00 - [16] just want to say ... hello blasterthrone say hello to my new friend :)
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 13/10/2007 10:11:02 Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Akita T Gotta' love the people crying "nerf" when this is a huge BOOST to torpedoes, alongside (finally) bringing them inline with the other short-range weapon systems. So, yeah, you maybe need a painter or two to get full damage potential, but you still deal more DPS even without any painter, and you get the option to INCREASE it even further with painters (besides, you don't even have to have any painter yourself, anybody else in the gang can have some). I think what worries most ppl isnt the range nerf, but the fact that they will now loose a lot of the tank on the raven Heavy Painter Drones. Just one gives you a 30% sig bonus, which is sufficient for tier2/tier3 BS. On a raven you can still launch 2 painter drones+ 2 mediums and a light. Although I'm unsure how it will work with bandwidth. very valid point, i totaly forgot about painter drones.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 13/10/2007 10:11:02 Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: Akita T Gotta' love the people crying "nerf" when this is a huge BOOST to torpedoes, alongside (finally) bringing them inline with the other short-range weapon systems. So, yeah, you maybe need a painter or two to get full damage potential, but you still deal more DPS even without any painter, and you get the option to INCREASE it even further with painters (besides, you don't even have to have any painter yourself, anybody else in the gang can have some). I think what worries most ppl isnt the range nerf, but the fact that they will now loose a lot of the tank on the raven Heavy Painter Drones. Just one gives you a 30% sig bonus, which is sufficient for tier2/tier3 BS. 20% surely? Also, they are stacking nerfed. In any case, this seems to be a huge boost for target painters (minnie whining ftw) and a bit of a nerf to raven speed ratting (but they can still fit 3 x hydraulic bay thrusters). Right, I meant to say 20%, got it confused with webber drones. Its still a huge buff to pvp ravens though, now they can finally deal respectable damage at close range. Incidentally, this is also a huge buff to the phoon. Now it can deal something like 800-900 DPS with a full 7 slot tank and a full 4 mids to tackle.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:39:00 - [19] Well, TBFH, they did reduce the range a bit too much. They used 2-4-6 sec base flight time on rockets-HAMs-torps, which is all fine... until you look at torpedo flight speed and see it's not 2250 m/s base like rockets and HAMs, but barely 1500 m/s (used to be 1250, but come on, still far from enough). Overall, you end up with a torpedo that has identical range to a HAM (base 9km before anything... skills, rigs, implants or ship bonuses)... from 84+km (way overkill) to 20+km (seriously underpowered), I hate rollercoaster changes. A pertinent torpedo range would be 30km base (on the 'phoon... or 45km on maxskills Raven). That would mean EITHER * keep the new base 6 sec flight time and increase base torpedo flight speed to 2250 m/sec OR * keep the new base torpedo flight speed of 1500 m/sec and adjust base flight time to 9 sec _ 1\|2\|3
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Myra2007 Originally by: Calimor Yes they are. Range has been DRASTICALLY reduced on SiSi (to about 27km with amazing skills). It's a total absurd. CCP, please reconsider this. You might want to reconsider that if you have a look at the new rof of siege launchers, plz. RoF is one thing, but the reduction in max range would be bad. sure, a reduced range, makes sense, they do get some crazy ranges on them right now, but basicly, they should fire further than heavy missiles, but not as far as cruise missiles (to make cruise missiles make sense). just a thought. ========================================== Iy please remember: I AM a sarcastic ******* and nothing i say has ever represented the thoughts or feelings of my corp, alliance, or anyone really. read
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:45:00 - [21] Originally by: Akita T Well, TBFH, they did reduce the range a bit too much. They used 2-4-6 sec base flight time on rockets-HAMs-torps, which is all fine... until you look at torpedo flight speed and see it's not 2250 m/s base like rockets and HAMs, but barely 1500 m/s (used to be 1250, but come on, still far from enough). Overall, you end up with a torpedo that has identical range to a HAM (base 9km before anything... skills, rigs, implants or ship bonuses)... from 84+km (way overkill) to 20+km (seriously underpowered), I hate rollercoaster changes. A pertinent torpedo range would be 30km base (on the 'phoon... or 45km on maxskills Raven). That would mean EITHER * keep the new base 6 sec flight time and increase base torpedo flight speed to 2250 m/sec OR * keep the new base torpedo flight speed of 1500 m/sec and adjust base flight time to 9 sec Agreed. Getting in that close with a Raven is playing to your opponents strengths instead of their weaknesses. You're still better off just getting in another ship.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:48:00 - [22] A huge boost to torpedo DPS. And the caldari response? Another whine thread... And that is before anyone have even tried them =)
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:48:00 - [23] Edited by: Gamesguy on 13/10/2007 10:50:37 Edited by: Gamesguy on 13/10/2007 10:49:27 Originally by: Akita T Well, TBFH, they did reduce the range a bit too much. They used 2-4-6 sec base flight time on rockets-HAMs-torps, which is all fine... until you look at torpedo flight speed and see it's not 2250 m/s base like rockets and HAMs, but barely 1500 m/s (used to be 1250, but come on, still far from enough). Overall, you end up with a torpedo that has identical range to a HAM (base 9km before anything... skills, rigs, implants or ship bonuses)... from 84+km (way overkill) to 20+km (seriously underpowered), I hate rollercoaster changes. A pertinent torpedo range would be 30km base (on the 'phoon... or 45km on maxskills Raven). That would mean EITHER * keep the new base 6 sec flight time and increase base torpedo flight speed to 2250 m/sec OR * keep the new base torpedo flight speed of 1500 m/sec and adjust base flight time to 9 sec No, with 45km range torps the raven would outdamage the pulse geddon using scorch while using no cap for its weapon. In addition, with 3 missile velocity rigs the new torp can hit 50km range, and missile rigs are cheap as a hell. This current change already obsolete the maelstrom, the new raven is better than the AC maelstrom and tempest in every possible way. These are the numbers on a raven with 3 bcu. - Before : T1 torps = 619 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 711 dps to 127km @ 2813m/s, 400m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 523 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 743 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity - After : T1 torps = 823 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity CN torps = 946 dps to 30km @ 3375m/s, 530m exp radius 375m/s exp velocity Jav torps = 696 dps to 158km @ 8438m/s, 400m exp radius 750m/s exp velocity Rage torps = 988 dps to 34km @ 2250m/s, 600m exp radius 150m/s exp velocity
Neon Razor Caldari Eve Defence Force Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.10.13 10:54:00 - [24] and excuse to finally train caldari bs up to level 5 or hope that one of the tech 2 amarr BS's will have lots of missiles
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:04:00 - [25] Originally by: Iyanah Originally by: Myra2007 Originally by: Calimor Yes they are. Range has been DRASTICALLY reduced on SiSi (to about 27km with amazing skills). It's a total absurd. CCP, please reconsider this. You might want to reconsider that if you have a look at the new rof of siege launchers, plz. RoF is one thing, but the reduction in max range would be bad. sure, a reduced range, makes sense, they do get some crazy ranges on them right now, but basicly, they should fire further than heavy missiles, but not as far as cruise missiles (to make cruise missiles make sense). just a thought. So the large model of the short range weapons should have more range than the long range medium model? Can I have my 25 KM range large blaster? Would gladly accept a reduction in damage. Speaking seriously a 27 KM max range can be a tad short (even if it almost max range with blaster, well in the second band of falloff) and for sure a bit more speed would be ok, but all cosidered it is not so bad a change. A short range weapon with 80+ km range with basic skills was a bit absurd.
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:09:00 - [26] I like this change.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Gamesguy stuff about DPS I wasn't talking DPS at all. And look at your posted range numbers a bit closer. You can't deny the fact T2 torps are quite the way they should be, range-wise (and damage-wise too) or do you ? Now, assuming the T2 torps are "just right"... let's look at rockets and HAMs a bit too. ALL Rage variants have a shorter range as corresponding T1. The fact T1 torps have a SHORTER range as T2 rage torps should be an indication they funked up something badly. T1 torps should get 30km reach and 45km from Raven, period. Wether you do 6x2250 or 9x1500, frankly I don't really care all that much (for the sake of balance though, 9x1500 would be advisable). _ 1\|2\|3
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:19:00 - [28] with the ammount of dps the raven will now get i would say a range of 20-25km sounds about right. i just hope they give the raven some more powergrid so it will be possible to fit a mwd on the damn thing
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:26:00 - [29] Short-range missiles are supposed to heavily out-range short-range weapons. Rockets go up to 10km, HAMs up to 20km, and that's with T1 (or faction) ammo. Now, a torpedo only reaching out to 20km too, just like a HAM (which by the way was balanced up in range recently), that's absurd. Doesn't matter the Raven has a +50% extra range bonus (making it 30km), other torpedo-using BSs don't have it, and 20km range of torps on a Typhoon is indeed absurd, no matter how you put it. A torpedo should go (from an unbonused ship) at least out to 30km. It used to go out to 84+km for chrissakes ! You don't have to cut it down to 20km, wtf. _ 1\|2\|3
AuroraStar RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:30:00 - [30] Edited by: AuroraStar on 13/10/2007 11:32:51 You all seem to forget that a raven tank sucks and getting in close isnt really what you want to do in one. Might be different on your triple rep blaster thron but for a raven staying at range was the key. I agree with the person with the seven of nine sig, 20km is just stupid. Edit : Rememeber ravens arnt the only ship that can use torps, and in no way should a ship BONUS be factored in when working out the range for a missile. Its like saying megathrons get a range distance boost lets reduce the range on guns so that they shoot exactly the same distance as without the range bonus. (And all other ships w.o bonus get screwed).
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:30:00 - [31] Originally by: Akita T Short-range missiles are supposed to heavily out-range short-range weapons. Rockets go up to 10km, HAMs up to 20km, and that's with T1 (or faction) ammo. Now, a torpedo only reaching out to 20km too, just like a HAM (which by the way was balanced up in range recently), that's absurd. Doesn't matter the Raven has a +50% extra range bonus (making it 30km), other torpedo-using BSs don't have it, and 20km range of torps on a Typhoon is indeed absurd, no matter how you put it. A torpedo should go (from an unbonused ship) at least out to 30km. It used to go out to 84+km for chrissakes ! You don't have to cut it down to 20km, wtf. If you're gonna use that as a comparison, then DPS does become relevant. Rockets and hams do vastly less damage than blasters, autocannons, and pulse lasers. For example a max skilled sacriledge does what? 450dps with 5 ham launchers? A max skilled deimos would do over 700 DPS, a 5 turret zealot/vaga would do 600+ dps. The torp raven is very very close in terms of damage to other close range bs. Pulse geddon with faction MF deals around 1k-1.1k DPS? Same with tempest. It works fine on the phoon anyways, considering the short rangedness of 425s.
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:31:00 - [32] i honestly dont see any reason a high damage weapon like torps should have more then 25km range, it makes it pretty even with close range guns and the raven still has a lot of slots it can use for damage mods something other close range bs dont have
AuroraStar RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 11:34:00 - [33] Shield Tank is your reason.
AuroraStar RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:00:00 - [34] Edited by: AuroraStar on 13/10/2007 12:00:02 And raven needs to lose a low and get another med. So as to be able to fit a half decent tank.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:04:00 - [35] Originally by: AuroraStar And raven needs to lose a low and get another med. So as to be able to fit a half decent tank. That's what they did with the Golem _ 1\|2\|3
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:08:00 - [36] Originally by: AuroraStar Edited by: AuroraStar on 13/10/2007 12:00:02 And raven needs to lose a low and get another med. So as to be able to fit a half decent tank. It needs to lose one high and get one low to be be able to fit decent armor tank. (or get high slot version of tackling gear). 8th high slot on raven is complete waste :(
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:09:00 - [37] Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: AuroraStar Edited by: AuroraStar on 13/10/2007 12:00:02 And raven needs to lose a low and get another med. So as to be able to fit a half decent tank. It needs to lose one high and get one low to be be able to fit decent armor tank. (or get high slot version of tackling gear). 8th high slot on raven is complete waste :( 3 x polycarbon rig and the raven turns like a cruiser and is still able to field a actteptable tank + mwd. as always leave the tackling to the ceptors:9
AuroraStar RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:12:00 - [38] Originally by: Inflexible Originally by: AuroraStar Edited by: AuroraStar on 13/10/2007 12:00:02 And raven needs to lose a low and get another med. So as to be able to fit a half decent tank. It needs to lose one high and get one low to be be able to fit decent armor tank. (or get high slot version of tackling gear). 8th high slot on raven is complete waste :( Perhaps thatd be better :P But ppl would complain Im sure, moreso than if we lost a low slot. I for one would give up a low slot for a med. Though yes Id prefer to give up a high :)
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:12:00 - [39] Originally by: d026 3 x polycarbon rig and the raven turns like a cruiser and is still able to field a actteptable tank + mwd. as always leave the tackling to the ceptors:9 im not a big fan of ships having to have rigs to do its job, imo rigs are there to give ships a little edge not to be able to do what it was intended to do
AuroraStar RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:14:00 - [40] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: d026 3 x polycarbon rig and the raven turns like a cruiser and is still able to field a actteptable tank + mwd. as always leave the tackling to the ceptors:9 im not a big fan of ships having to have rigs to do its job, imo rigs are there to give ships a little edge not to be able to do what it was intended to do Agreed.
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:16:00 - [41] Definately giving this a thumbs up. At the moment the dps roof with 3 bcs 2's is a joke compared to other races. Just what caldari need. _
c3rise	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:18:00 - [42] Originally by: d026 3 x polycarbon rig and the raven turns like a cruiser and is still able to field a actteptable tank + mwd. as always leave the tackling to the ceptors:9 sorry for the sarcasm, but you can also put 3 powergrid rigs and be able to fit the raven with 8 highest dammage guns / launchers, while all other tier 2 Bs can fit all their highest dmg guns/launcher without any rigs
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:26:00 - [43] Originally by: c3rise Originally by: d026 3 x polycarbon rig and the raven turns like a cruiser and is still able to field a actteptable tank + mwd. as always leave the tackling to the ceptors:9 sorry for the sarcasm, but you can also put 3 powergrid rigs and be able to fit the raven with 8 highest dammage guns / launchers, while all other tier 2 Bs can fit all their highest dmg guns/launcher without any rigs An apoc can't fit 8 t2 megabeams (let alone tachs). A tempest can't even fit 6 t2 1400mm's (let alone fitting 2 more launchers). So only a megathron can fit a full highend weapon rack without fitting mods. So what was your point again? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
IamBen Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:27:00 - [44] Edited by: IamBen on 13/10/2007 12:27:54 If I am reading this correctly, torpedoes are going to kick butt now! Faster ROF but less range! Thank you CCP! My uber missile skills will actually be useful!
Bacci Galu The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:36:00 - [45] Originally by: Venec I'm mostly concerned how this change will affect mission runners and ratters. Most the good 0.0 angle spawns (seriphs, cerbs) dont come closer than 30 km...so ure ****ed in some regards.. i suppose t2 jav torps are the new flavor Maker of thy sig Yes i do make sigs, banners, corp logo's ect...
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:41:00 - [46] Originally by: Bacci Galu Originally by: Venec I'm mostly concerned how this change will affect mission runners and ratters. Most the good 0.0 angle spawns (seriphs, cerbs) dont come closer than 30 km...so ure ****ed in some regards.. i suppose t2 jav torps are the new flavor Guristas rats are gonna be a PITA to kill now though. Or will the BS rats also be limited to 30Km torps and have to come in close? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.10.13 12:42:00 - [47] Originally by: Venec I'm mostly concerned how this change will affect mission runners and ratters. They get to use the long-range versions like every other goddamn race.
Manthicore	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:09:00 - [48] Originally by: Malcanis Guristas rats are gonna be a PITA to kill now though. Or will the BS rats also be limited to 30Km torps and have to come in close? I think the cruise missile raven PVE setup will be the winner :)
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:17:00 - [49] I really can't be bothered reading a whole thread full of whines, but it looks to me like a Torp boost and Target Painter boost (admittedly the target painter boost is only an implied one due to the increased explosion radius) all in one. I (or EFT) worked out last night that a max skilled torp Raven gets 127km range, which seems ridiculous for what's supposed to be an unguided close range weapon, but to compensate, the DPS was way lower than for short range turrets. So if this change happens, Torp DPS will be more in-line with the other races' short range weapons, and have decent range and the ability to choose damage type on top of that. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
suzy homemaker	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:21:00 - [50] Guristas BS like to orbit in the low 50km range. All fine and dandy if they want to do this but they are going to have to rescript every single lvl 4 guristas mission. or Give a mid slot and increase agility on several shield tanked ships, Raven especially. or Adjust torp speed / flight that at BS 4 missile skills 4 they will hit 50km oribts. Alternative Give 3 different missile systems by size just like the guns. Trading range for damage as you move through the sizes. Suzy
Dragon Lord Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:50:00 - [51] Well for pve use jav torps they realy rock with these changes, dont use normal torps in pve after the changes as they are utterly useless. For pvp these are great changes the dps a raven can dish out for 0-30kms is now nearly 1000 without drones, and if you switch to jav torps its close to 700dps and they hit to 130kms with good skills. Overall its a big nerf to faction and officer siege launchers as you only use them for missions and they are now useless. But its a nice buff for t2 siege launchers and missle pvp
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:50:00 - [52] whats torp range nerf on a raven pls?
Dragon Lord Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.13 13:59:00 - [53] Well before the nerf torps with max skills went 127kms, in sisi with max skills they go 30kms
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:08:00 - [54] The nerf on explosion radius is an inacceptable nerf. I don't care since I don't use torps anymore but if torps have to be close range, which makes sense, they should have the same damage output than other close range weapons. So, the damage increase to torps should be higher and the explosion velocity lowered instead of increased. This change goes the right direction but chances are it's not final, it seems a bit wrong atm. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:38:00 - [55] Originally by: Gamesguy Incidentally, this is also a huge buff to the phoon. Now it can deal something like 800-900 DPS with a full 7 slot tank and a full 4 mids to tackle. Nah, the Phoon doesn't have the CPU/PG to fit a proper tank, MWD, 2 target painter II's and 4 x Siege II, 4 x AC II ... But feel free to suggest fittings if you think otherwise (I've tried) isn't it funny how some people advocate both GTC<=>ISK trades and EVE being superior due to its cruelty and costly losses, when they use the former to circumvent the latter?
Letava Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:46:00 - [56] Originally by: suzy homemaker Guristas BS like to orbit in the low 50km range. All fine and dandy if they want to do this but they are going to have to rescript every single lvl 4 guristas mission. I have a suggestion: either use long range weapons or make your ship fast enough to get into range. Everyone else has to do it, why shouldn't you? -----------------------
suzy homemaker	Posted - 2007.10.13 14:58:00 - [57] I believe the point is that now a raven has to give up 2 tanking slots for this change. AB and a TP. No MWD in mish deadspace. Armor tanked ships give up no tank for for fitting modules to boost their speed or weapon auxillaries like webs. So a shield tanker has to live with a 4 slot tank while the armor tanker is unchanged. Overall point is this a pretty big change in several of the races battleships that render torps useless as a pve weapon for the average non max skilled character. IMHO a weapon should not require you to have max skills to employ it in what are normal everyday encounters. Suzy
Letava Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:09:00 - [58] Ok, I'll admit I forgot about not being able to use MWD, but bear in mind that while you have to give up tank slots for mods like that, an armour tanker has to give up tank slots for damage mods and speed mods. I'd also like to point out that to the best of my knowledge, most people who use turret ships for missions use long range turrets. I'll give you a little comparison for why Torp range needed to be brought down: Raven - Max skills, 50% velocity bonus to torps, which are supposed to be the 'short range' missiles - 127km range, 619 DPS with 3 damage mods, 6 Siege launcher II, T1 torps. The downside is that they take time to reach the target. Rokh - Max skills, 50% optimal bonus to hybrids. Using 8 x 425mm Railgun II, the longest range hybrid (which it needs fitting mods to fit 8 of) - 54km optimal, 30km falloff, 481 DPS with close range ammo. The downside is it actually has to track, can't change damage type, and while long range ammo boosts it 194km optimal, it loses a lot of DPS for that. -----------------------
Crax McGee Silentium. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:13:00 - [59] the mwd cavalry ravens are gone! AGIAN! dam you ccp.. DAM YOU!
suzy homemaker	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:19:00 - [60] I dont disagree with range reduction, just thinking its a bit too big of a reduction. PVE wise, yes tracking is a issue but so are defenders as the npc's version is acutually effective. For comparison I would use though the Megathron. Caldari rail boats are notoriusly bad pve ships as the rail range bonus plays no real role in pve. Too early to tell anyways, just hope it doesnt hit TQ in the current adjustments. Suzy
Manos Malos	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:22:00 - [61] Yay! Giant rockets win.
Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:43:00 - [62] Is it reasonable to assume that since they were brought "in line" with the other short range missiles that the torps' fitting requirements have been lowered? One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:48:00 - [63] excellent move ccp
Arrow Jumpdrive Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.10.13 15:58:00 - [64] Quote: Can I have my 25 KM range large blaster? Would gladly accept a reduction in damage. Yup, they are called rigs. I've got a 50k falloff on dual 800's.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:03:00 - [65] Originally by: Arrow Jumpdrive Quote: Can I have my 25 KM range large blaster? Would gladly accept a reduction in damage. Yup, they are called rigs. I've got a 50k falloff on dual 800's. I love those dual 800mm blasters.
F90OEX	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:07:00 - [66] Edited by: F90OEX on 13/10/2007 16:10:42 Interesting change ... Maxed skills on torps and Eng/elec skills . Problem is anyone who fits siege launchers/ II knows that they take up a huge amount of PG/CPU, causing you to usually having the 2 remaining slots in the highs empty, your shield tanking ability is also reduced since a typical standard fitting won't fit, and now having to add a TP is all fine and dandy, but if you don't have a decent tank to mild DPS makes fitting the TP useless, especially for close fights. Tbh I don't mind the changes, but I think torps should have a better range something like 50-60km.
Broska coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:16:00 - [67] Hold on hold on.... Some of you guys are COMPLAINING at getting an over 200dps buff to torps to be used in the role they were intended (short range!). For a short range weapon they STILL have longer range than blasters. (Not sure about AC's and Mega Pulses)
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:22:00 - [68] Edited by: Incantare on 13/10/2007 16:23:08 Originally by: Broska Hold on hold on.... Some of you guys are COMPLAINING at getting an over 200dps buff to torps to be used in the role they were intended (short range!). For a short range weapon they STILL have longer range than blasters. (Not sure about AC's and Mega Pulses) Yes, because of explosion radius being nerfed to hell.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:23:00 - [69] Megapulses and 800mm ACs have longer range with long range T2 ammo, but less DPS due to the lower base damage and in the case of ACs and Blasters, they will be using falloff rather than optimal. It seems to me that while it might be a bad thing for PvE Ravens, it's going to be bringing torps in line with the other weapons and making Caldari less of a 'PvE race'. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:31:00 - [70] Paper dps means little. The fact that you no longer hit anything with slow short range torps kinda makes them completely pointless at this time... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats

CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:36:00 - [71] So yeah, I'm guessing you guys saw the changes then :) We just started messing around with this yesterday, and these changes should in fact not have been made public so soon preferably, as we're not done balancing them. But you get the basic concept: shorter range, more damage. Please reserve judgment on this until we've finalized (or at least improved) our design on torpedos.

Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:39:00 - [72] Originally by: CCP Zulupark We just started messing around with this yesterday, and these changes should in fact not have been made public so soon preferably, as we're not done balancing them. But you get the basic concept: shorter range, more damage. That is good to hear.
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:40:00 - [73] Originally by: Myra2007 Edited by: Myra2007 on 13/10/2007 06:25:46 Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated If this is true its just ******. Torps do NOT need to be nerfed. T2 Torps are already useless, now normal Torps will be useless as well? Do you actually understand what -25% ROF means? Do you understand id rather have range. Yes Rate of fire is nice and all nooblet. DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale! THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!**
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:44:00 - [74] Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated Originally by: Myra2007 Edited by: Myra2007 on 13/10/2007 06:25:46 Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated If this is true its just *******. Torps do NOT need to be nerfed. T2 Torps are already useless, now normal Torps will be useless as well? Do you actually understand what -25% ROF means? Do you understand id rather have range. Yes Rate of fire is nice and all nooblet. Then use long range missiles* if you prefer range to damage. Genius! how could you not have thought of it before? --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Dragon Lord Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:44:00 - [75] I like the changes the olnly thing i would say is that any none capital waepon should be able to do full dmg to a bs
Bobbechk Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:46:00 - [76] say hello to your new friend Huginn raven pilots
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:47:00 - [77] Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated Originally by: Myra2007 Edited by: Myra2007 on 13/10/2007 06:25:46 Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated If this is true its just *******. Torps do NOT need to be nerfed. T2 Torps are already useless, now normal Torps will be useless as well? Do you actually understand what -25% ROF means? Do you understand id rather have range. Yes Rate of fire is nice and all nooblet. But do you really need javelin torps going out to 241 Km (with T1 rigs) and T1 to 192 Km right now? isn't it funny how some people advocate both GTC<=>ISK trades and EVE being superior due to its cruelty and costly losses, when they use the former to circumvent the latter?*
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:48:00 - [78] Originally by: Bobbechk say hello to your new friend Huginn raven pilots A single T2 TP on the Raven will be more than enough for max. damage on almost any BS... isn't it funny how some people advocate both GTC<=>ISK trades and EVE being superior due to its cruelty and costly losses, when they use the former to circumvent the latter?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:49:00 - [79] Edited by: Akita T on 13/10/2007 16:50:04 Originally by: CCP Zulupark we're not done balancing them. But you get the basic concept: shorter range, more damage. Well, duuh, I sure HOPE they're not finalized. Still, what's the problem ? Just follow the same ratios as for rockets/lights, HAMs/Heavies, and you'll be fine. P.S. I sure hope that means you're also buffing cruise slightly _ 1\|2\|3
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:50:00 - [80] Maybe it wont be all that bad after all, I shouldnt have passed judgment without testing them on sisi first. I just hope these changes will once again make t2 torps useful. DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale! THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!
iiOs Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:50:00 - [81] why all other race close range weapons are better vs smaller ships and caldari are totaly useless ? ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Myra2007	Posted - 2007.10.13 16:59:00 - [82] Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated Originally by: Myra2007 Edited by: Myra2007 on 13/10/2007 06:25:46 Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated If this is true its just ********. Torps do NOT need to be nerfed. T2 Torps are already useless, now normal Torps will be useless as well? Do you actually understand what -25% ROF means? Do you understand id rather have range. Yes Rate of fire is nice and all nooblet. Hello disgruntled mission runner. Dont be so angry your mummy will make you some hot choclate to compensate for your loss.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 17:01:00 - [83] Originally by: CCP Zulupark So yeah, I'm guessing you guys saw the changes then :) We just started messing around with this yesterday, and these changes should in fact not have been made public so soon preferably, as we're not done balancing them. But you get the basic concept: shorter range, more damage. Please reserve judgment on this until we've finalized (or at least improved) our design on torpedos. You should inform the balance team that the problem with sieges is not dps, but fitting. Why on earth you guys ever gave the short range weapons for missiles harder fitting than the long range weapons i cannot guess, but you did and it was dumb.
Broska coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 17:03:00 - [84] Originally by: Incantare Edited by: Incantare on 13/10/2007 16:23:08 Originally by: Broska Hold on hold on.... Some of you guys are COMPLAINING at getting an over 200dps buff to torps to be used in the role they were intended (short range!). For a short range weapon they STILL have longer range than blasters. (Not sure about AC's and Mega Pulses) Yes, because of explosion radius being nerfed to hell. So? Every other close range ship has to fit a web, You have to Fit a TP. What's the problem? And as someone said earlyier, Their are TP Drones aswell.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 17:03:00 - [85] Originally by: Goumindong for missiles harder fitting than the long range weapons i cannot guess, but you did and it was dumb. I agree with Goumindong.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 17:06:00 - [86] Originally by: Broska So? Every other close range ship has to fit a web, You have to Fit a TP. What's the problem? And as someone said earlyier, Their are TP Drones aswell. A web is far more useful than a TP? Most turret ships armor tank and have no problem fitting a web? It's far more reasonable to expect your gang mates to have webs than TPs?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.13 17:07:00 - [87] This exact change we see now has been discussed almost 3 months ago. _ 1\|2\|3
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.13 17:09:00 - [88] Originally by: Incantare A web is far more useful than a TP? Most turret ships armor tank and have no problem fitting a web? If you've got half an ounce of sense you're already armour tanking your raven, so that doesn't matter. 1 target painter will max your dps versus any BS, compared to the multiple webs and the requirement to stop/slow your own ship that most close range guns need. Just get a painting EW frig or huginn into the gang and torps will rip everything to shreds. Almost 1,000 dps with no misses and selectable damage type. Win.
Omnium Domitor Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.13 17:32:00 - [89] Max Skills Raven/Caracal/Flycatcher here. Got a little bored and ran some numbers. Rockets: 15.1875km (FT: 3 MV: 5062.5) Ok HAMs: 30.375km (FT: 6 MV: 5062.5) 2x the distance of Rockets... not bad Torps: 30.375km (FT: 9 MV: 3375) Same as the damn HAMs. One would think the torps would ahve 2x the range of HAMs. For ****s and giggles, here's some examples for you. Adding Rigs gets you: 1x Rocket 2x Hydraulic T:45407.942164287 (FT:10.35 Sec MV:4387.24078882 m/sec) C:378399.51803745 (FT:34.50 Sec MV:10968.1019721 m/sec) 2x Rocket 1x Hydraulic T:45410.625(FT:11.70 Sec MV:3881.25 m/sec) C:378421.875 (FT:39.00 Sec MV:9703.125 m/sec) Adding Implants to rigs gets you: 1x Rocket 2x Hydraulic +5% Flight Time T:47689.307374473 (FT:10.87 Sec MV:4387.24078882 m/sec) C:397374.33444918 (FT:36.23 Sec MV:10968.1019721 m/sec) 2x Rocket 1x Hydraulic +5% Flight Time T:47661.75 (FT:12.28 Sec MV:3881.25 m/sec) C:397342.96875 (FT:40.95 Sec. MV:9703.125 m/sec) 1x Rocket 2x Hydraulic +5% Missile Velocity T:4616.95282826(FT:10.35 Sec MV:4606.60282826 m/sec) C:397319.49393915(FT:34.50 Sec MV:11516.5070707 m/sec) 2x Rocket 1x Hydraulic +5% Missile Velocity T:47681.15625(FT:11.7Sec MV:4075.3125 m/sec) C:397342.96875 (FT:39 Sec. MV:10188.28125 m/sec) Let's just say, I am really glad CCP Zulupark says these are not final.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 17:32:00 - [90] Edited by: Incantare on 13/10/2007 17:33:12 Originally by: Elmicker If you've got half an ounce of sense you're already armour tanking your raven, so that doesn't matter. And shall I have a 2 slot tank and promptly get ripped to shreds by the first mega that comes along, or cut into damage mods which beats the purpose of having a painter and a weaker tank? The point of a shield tank is gank and tank, which is something the Raven should be able to take advantage of, as do the Rokh and Maelstrom. Ravens should not always armor tank. Damp/torp setups are nice now thanks to the range on torps, soon the range won't be there, and damps will be nerfed. Quote: 1 target painter will max your dps versus any BS Not true. New explosion radius on t1/faction torps: 530m PWNAGE/T2 painter: +30% Tempest signature: 340m unpainted, 442 w/ 1 painter Geddon signature: 370m unpainted, 481 w/ 1 painter Typhoon: 320m unpainted, 416 w/ 1 painter Now these already require painters today, with the changed torp stats they'd require two. Apoc: 400m, 520 w/ 1 painter Domi: 420m, 526 w/ 1 painter Mega: 400m, 520 w/ 1 painter One painter would be enough to get full damage for tier 3 battleships, and Caldari battleships. Two would be needed otherwise. Quote: compared to the multiple webs and the requirement to stop/slow your own ship that most close range guns need. A Raven with such short range would need its target webbed anyway, and webs are more useful overall. Quote: Just get a painting EW frig or huginn into the gang and torps will rip everything to shreds. Almost 1,000 dps with no misses and selectable damage type. Win. Agreed on the selectable damage type + large amount of damage being great. Needing a gang mate in a specialized, narrow setup, less so.
Karloff III GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 17:33:00 - [91] Thanks for clearing up that these numbers aren't final Zulupark. Just to collect a few things: Current flight time/max velocity on torps is exactly the same as HAMs. Every other weapon in the game doubles in range as you go up one ship class. This applies to guided missiles and unguided missiles except for torps, both currently and on SiSi. The explosion radius on rockets is 60% lower than light missiles and is equal on HAMs and heavies. On SiSi, torps have a 76.7% higher explosion radius than cruise. I don't fly blaster boats, but my impression was that webs were most useful for attacking undersized ships. This is how TPs work now, and I don't see why you should need one to do full damage to any sub-capital ship. Most belt rats has a sig of about 350m. With a best-named TP you're still going to lose 15% of your DPS. All pro Angel ratters already fit a TP since you won't do full damage to 70% of the BS without it. This simply makes it so that the full DPS buff only affects 30% of BS spawns. My suggestion would be to make torps do roughly 25% more DPS than cruise and to keep the 400m signature radius. Make the velocity identical to all other unguided missiles, but double the flight time from HAMs. This would make torp progression work exactly like all other missiles, which CCP seems to be happy with (even if not all players are). Torps would keep the missile range advantage (for close range), the DPS disadvantage, and all of the other quirks (whether positive or negative) of missiles.
zilllii Squirrel Power	Posted - 2007.10.13 17:41:00 - [92] Originally by: CCP Zulupark So yeah, I'm guessing you guys saw the changes then :) We just started messing around with this yesterday, and these changes should in fact not have been made public so soon preferably, as we're not done balancing them. But you get the basic concept: shorter range, more damage. Please reserve judgment on this until we've finalized (or at least improved) our design on torpedos. personally i think all torps should be max range 25k for T1 and the long range tech2 50k but half dmg and splashdmg of course but no splash on cruise gimme bigger letter count in my sig so it wont cut off everything damnit!!!!
Jasai Kameron Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.13 18:06:00 - [93] Originally by: Akita T Ok, so you have a sacrilege dealing 450 DPS with HAMs, a deimos over 700 DPS with blasters. Now, a Raven, in your 3-BCU example, deals up to 823 DPS with new T1 torps. But since you're comparing with a Gallente blasterboat in your previous example... how much DPS do you get with an AM/Neutron 3-MFS-II Megathron ? Hmm, could it be it's somewhere around 1200 DPS ? That would be pretty much similar ratio of damage dealt. Now, if you want to whine about how Amarr boats have it bad compared to Gallente boats, be my guest. But Torpedoes should get roughly 30km range at maxskills, or 45km from a Raven. Heck, I was one of the people who said since a long time ago that torps should get a range nerf, because it's too high. My suggestion back then was a simple 30 to 15 or even 10 sec flight time change for T1 torps, and nothing else. WOW. Major playing with the numbers there. 7 Neutron Blaster w/ T1 ammo (antimatter), which is what you are comparing, with 3 Mag Stabs equals 813 dps at 4.5km optimal. That's LESS than the Raven. Also its cap is majorly gimped by fitting a MwD and the huge cap consumption of its weapons. What we are missing out here, of course, is drones. With 5 Ogres, its damage reaches 1130 dps. However, we need to add drones onto the Raven now, don't we. Wouldn't want to be chucking unfair numbers around. 5 Hammerheads, max skilled, is 158 dps. So that adds up to 981 dps on the Raven you used. So yes, the 149 more dps, but has huge drawbacks for that small increase. The vast majority of the megathron's damage is done at within 5 or so kilometers. You get your dps up to 30km. Not to mention the ridiculous cap consumption of MwD plus blasters. You are getting a monster of a weapon system, which gives you a monster of a ship and you are still complaining. And you are using unfair numbers to do it.
Evelgrivion Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.13 18:44:00 - [94] Originally by: Jasai Kameron Originally by: Akita T Ok, so you have a sacrilege dealing 450 DPS with HAMs, a deimos over 700 DPS with blasters. Now, a Raven, in your 3-BCU example, deals up to 823 DPS with new T1 torps. But since you're comparing with a Gallente blasterboat in your previous example... how much DPS do you get with an AM/Neutron 3-MFS-II Megathron ? Hmm, could it be it's somewhere around 1200 DPS ? That would be pretty much similar ratio of damage dealt. Now, if you want to whine about how Amarr boats have it bad compared to Gallente boats, be my guest. But Torpedoes should get roughly 30km range at maxskills, or 45km from a Raven. Heck, I was one of the people who said since a long time ago that torps should get a range nerf, because it's too high. My suggestion back then was a simple 30 to 15 or even 10 sec flight time change for T1 torps, and nothing else. WOW. Major playing with the numbers there. 7 Neutron Blaster w/ T1 ammo (antimatter), which is what you are comparing, with 3 Mag Stabs equals 813 dps at 4.5km optimal. That's LESS than the Raven. Also its cap is majorly gimped by fitting a MwD and the huge cap consumption of its weapons. What we are missing out here, of course, is drones. With 5 Ogres, its damage reaches 1130 dps. However, we need to add drones onto the Raven now, don't we. Wouldn't want to be chucking unfair numbers around. 5 Hammerheads, max skilled, is 158 dps. So that adds up to 981 dps on the Raven you used. So yes, the 149 more dps, but has huge drawbacks for that small increase. The vast majority of the megathron's damage is done at within 5 or so kilometers. You get your dps up to 30km. Not to mention the ridiculous cap consumption of MwD plus blasters. You are getting a monster of a weapon system, which gives you a monster of a ship and you are still complaining. And you are using unfair numbers to do it. You've left a huge hole in your arguments. Blasters use cap, but you have the advantage of having four mid slots open to compensate for that fact, and add tackling gear at the same time. The raven needs at least Five Mids just to give itself a worthwhile shield tank. That leaves one slot for this poor slow ship to try to do something with. The explosion radius of torpedoes in their current state make them all but worthless against smaller targets, so what on earth makes you think it is justified to claim that the Megathron, which can fit full tackling gear, tank, and instant-hit guns (at short range) is worse than the Raven, which can't even tank and attack at the same time? It's this logic that has made the Raven the poor gimped piece of crap that it is today in PVP. _________________________________________________________ »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
Metaller Ocean Dynamics Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:00:00 - [95] Edited by: Metaller on 13/10/2007 19:00:39 Torps get their damage increased??? I mean they are already one of the highest dps weapons in the game. Now every mission runner and ratter will have to fly ravens, cause other ships will be useless for PVE damage wise. CAN i get a dps increase on my arties too???
Calimor Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:01:00 - [96] I'm glad to know the changes are not final and I sure as HELL expect this horrible nerf to be at least reduced. Originally by: Metaller Torps get their damage increased??? I mean they are already the highest dps thing in the game. Now every mission runner and ratter will have to fly ravens, cause other ships will be useless for PVE damage wise. CAN i get a dps increase on my arties too??? Read. The. Thread.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:19:00 - [97] Originally by: Iyanah .. but basicly, they should fire further than heavy missiles, but not as far as cruise missiles (to make cruise missiles make sense). just a thought. Errr, no? Large Blasters don't shoot further than Medium Rails. Large Autocannons don't shoot further than Medium Artilleries. Why the hell should Torps shoot further than Heavy Missiles?!? -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:24:00 - [98] Let's run some numbers, with max skills, T2 drones, faction ammos and 3 damage mods. Current Torp Raven: 826 DPS AC Tempest: 876 DPS Neutron Megathron: 1226 DPS Pulse Armageddon: 1172 DPS Singularity Torp Raven: 1047 DPS Things of note: - The megathron use 22 cap/second to run it's weapons, the Armageddon use 32.3 cap/second for the same thing. - At 10km, the Megathron DPS is seriously degraded (about -10% DPS), and hte tempst about 85%. At 20km, the megathron deals only about 40% of it's normal dps, and the Armageddon about 80%. The tempest will do about 60% of it's DPS. - A tracking disruptor is much more effective at shutting down a gunship DPS than a rocket launcher fitted with defenders is at shutting down a missile ship. - Damage types. Enough said about it, really. All things considered, I think that, if torps are in deep need of a huge range nerf, and could use a slight dps boost, 1050 DPS at 25-30km is way, way over the top... ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:26:00 - [99] Originally by: Jasai Kameron WOW. Major playing with the numbers there. 7 Neutron Blaster w/ T1 ammo (antimatter), which is what you are comparing, with 3 Mag Stabs equals 813 dps at 4.5km optimal. That's LESS than the Raven. Also its cap is majorly gimped by fitting a MwD and the huge cap consumption of its weapons. What we are missing out here, of course, is drones. With 5 Ogres, its damage reaches 1130 dps. However, we need to add drones onto the Raven now, don't we. Wouldn't want to be chucking unfair numbers around. 5 Hammerheads, max skilled, is 158 dps. So that adds up to 981 dps on the Raven you used. Oh, right, FORGIVE ME I forgot to account for everything, and was using faction ammo vs regular ammo. Megathron, Faction AM + drones = 813 * 1.15 + 316.some = aprox 1250 DPS Let's redo the Raven with CN torps and HhII then. 946 + 159 = 1105 DPS Looks oh so close, right ? WRONG. At 530m explosion radius on the torps and 375 m/sec explosion velocity, you'd need BOTH a web and TWO painters to deal the full damage. Meanwhile, the Mega doesn't even need a web, but it does help to have one. So, let's say you do armor-tank your raven then. You also need a scram, and an injector, right ? Meanwhile, Mega just needs web/scram/inj/mwd (not 2 painters). And you'd obviously need a MWD too ! So, wait... that's all midslots already taken. Ok, so you only fit one PWNAGE painter, you won't die from a 1.88% DPS reduction, true. But what the heck DO you fit in the remaining mid that's useful ? A damp ? Wouldn't do you any good against a mega. A LSE ? Rofl. No, really, what the heck do you fit there that's USEFUL for an armor tank ? Oh, and not only that... but Mega starts off with better speed, better agility, TWO extra lows and a bigger armor buffer. So, with an armor-tank, you have TWO slots on the Raven, but FOUR slots on the Mega, after the 3 damage mods used in all these calcs. So, ok, you use a SHIELD tank then ? Sounds good right ? Well, let's see. A shield booster, a MWD, a scram, a SBA, two hardners, an injector, then... oh, wait, SLOTS DONE ! Drop what for a web/TP ? One of the already critically low 2 hardners ? The SBA ? NO WAY. So, you're left with 714 DPS from torps, plus 159 from drones, for 873 DPS vs 1250 DPS. That, at a worse capability to do, well, ANYTHING. Wait, you say, but the mega only has 4.5 km optimal ! Well, DUUH, but it ALSO has 12 or 12.5 km falloff ! At 50% falloff, you still deal around 84% of your blaster DPS. So, that's 935 * 0.84 = 785 DPS aprox + 316 DPS from drones, or 1104 DPS from over 10km distance. You know, JUST right for web range. So, ok... 873 DPS vs 1104 DPS (so 26+% more DPS on Mega), as soon as Mega reaches its "good" 10km range. You can open fire on it from say 30km AT BEST, yeah ? Well, with Mega going a lot faster as you do even if BOTH of you have MWDs (115 vs 125 m/s base speed, 102.5 vs 110 mil kg mass), that won't be a long time in which to deal your DPS before the Mega has you locked down and raining damage upon you... and no, you won't be dealing much damage on approach either, since even if sig-wise you deal full damage, SPEED-WISE you barely hit it for half damage, if that much. So, ok, I got a few numbers backwards. Still doesn't change the fact torp Raven sucks badly compared to Megathron (or other non-Caldari ships) in PvP even with the massive increase in raw DPS, if accompanied by the rest of the changes and nothing else. Good thing they confirmed these are not the final changes. _ 1\|2\|3
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:26:00 - [100] Originally by: Shadowsword Let's run some numbers, with max skills, T2 drones, faction ammos and 3 damage mods. Current Torp Raven: 826 DPS AC Tempest: 876 DPS Neutron Megathron: 1226 DPS Pulse Armageddon: 1172 DPS Singularity Torp Raven: 1047 DPS Things of note: - The megathron use 22 cap/second to run it's weapons, the Armageddon use 32.3 cap/second for the same thing. - At 10km, the Megathron DPS is seriously degraded (about -10% DPS), and hte tempst about 85%. At 20km, the megathron deals only about 40% of it's normal dps, and the Armageddon about 80%. The tempest will do about 60% of it's DPS. - A tracking disruptor is much more effective at shutting down a gunship DPS than a rocket launcher fitted with defenders is at shutting down a missile ship. - Damage types. Enough said about it, really. All things considered, I think that, if torps are in deep need of a huge range nerf, and could use a slight dps boost, 1050 DPS at 25-30km is way, way over the top... How much damage will that be on your standard 440m sig radius ship though? Ships that will need to fear that damage the most will be ones with increased sig radiuses, i.e. ravens.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:27:00 - [101] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Large Blasters don't shoot further than Medium Rails. Large Autocannons don't shoot further than Medium Artilleries. Why the hell should Torps shoot further than Heavy Missiles?!? Yes, but Large Blasters DO shoot farther than Medium Blasters, don't they ? Well, Torpedoes don't shoot farther (right now) as Heavy Assault Missiles. How's that right ? _ 1\|2\|3
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:31:00 - [102] Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 13/10/2007 19:34:48 Originally by: shinsushi Originally by: Shadowsword Let's run some numbers, with max skills, T2 drones, faction ammos and 3 damage mods. Current Torp Raven: 826 DPS AC Tempest: 876 DPS Neutron Megathron: 1226 DPS Pulse Armageddon: 1172 DPS Singularity Torp Raven: 1047 DPS Things of note: - The megathron use 22 cap/second to run it's weapons, the Armageddon use 32.3 cap/second for the same thing. - At 10km, the Megathron DPS is seriously degraded (about -10% DPS), and hte tempst about 85%. At 20km, the megathron deals only about 40% of it's normal dps, and the Armageddon about 80%. The tempest will do about 60% of it's DPS. - A tracking disruptor is much more effective at shutting down a gunship DPS than a rocket launcher fitted with defenders is at shutting down a missile ship. - Damage types. Enough said about it, really. All things considered, I think that, if torps are in deep need of a huge range nerf, and could use a slight dps boost, 1050 DPS at 25-30km is way, way over the top... How much damage will that be on your standard 440m sig radius ship though? Ships that will need to fear that damage the most will be ones with increased sig radiuses, i.e. ravens. -18% if the ship gets full explosion velocity damage. Over the full range without degration. Originally by: Akita T Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Large Blasters don't shoot further than Medium Rails. Large Autocannons don't shoot further than Medium Artilleries. Why the hell should Torps shoot further than Heavy Missiles?!? Yes, but Large Blasters DO shoot farther than Medium Blasters, don't they ? Well, Torpedoes don't shoot farther (right now) as Heavy Assault Missiles. How's that right ? I never said it is. I just pointed out that asking for large short-range weapons shooting further than medium long-range weapons is not balancing. Comparing base stats btw. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
MindDragon Caldari The Flaming Sideburn's	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:35:00 - [103] STOP NERFING TORPS!!! Geez CCP every time I get a decent skill trained you screw me over!?! So much for my lvl 5 torp skills...Now I have to find something else to do PvE missions cause Torps on Raven now is pointless for Lvl 4 missions. No, I am not going to fire off T2 torps cause then its gonna cost me more to shoot than to do the effing mission! MD ------ This space for rent.
Tao Han Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:47:00 - [104] Originally by: MindDragon STOP NERFING TORPS!!! Geez CCP every time I get a decent skill trained you screw me over!?! So much for my lvl 5 torp skills...Now I have to find something else to do PvE missions cause Torps on Raven now is pointless for Lvl 4 missions. No, I am not going to fire off T2 torps cause then its gonna cost me more to shoot than to do the effing mission! MD Yes, they are out to get you. I'd suggest contracting your stuff to me and leave the game. And that goes to all of you whiney *****, mini-threadnaughting over changes that devs in the very same thread has said where put prematurely on the test server and are still being tweaked. Grow some balls please, discuss changes, yes. Whining over stuff that might not happen is just ******. ------
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:47:00 - [105] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Originally by: Akita T Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Large Blasters don't shoot further than Medium Rails. Large Autocannons don't shoot further than Medium Artilleries. Why the hell should Torps shoot further than Heavy Missiles?!? Yes, but Large Blasters DO shoot farther than Medium Blasters, don't they ? Well, Torpedoes don't shoot farther (right now) as Heavy Assault Missiles. How's that right ? I never said it is. I just pointed out that asking for large short-range weapons shooting further than medium long-range weapons is not balancing. Comparing base stats btw. Well, the question still remains, IF they leave the current range changes on torps (hopefully not), then HAMs and Torps would have identical maxranges before ship skills... which is, to say the least, STUPID. _ 1\|2\|3
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:52:00 - [106] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Please reserve judgment on this until we've finalized (or at least improved) our design on torpedos. First the Scorpion lost its tank. Now the Raven loses its range. May I recommend changing the Rokh's range bonus into a drone damage bonus next? --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:58:00 - [107] Originally by: Akita T Well, the question still remains, IF they leave the current range changes on torps (hopefully not), then HAMs and Torps would have identical maxranges before ship skills... which is, to say the least, STUPID. Ummm.... HAMs go 20.25km with max skills. Wouldn't the new torps go out to 30km??
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:58:00 - [108] Originally by: Ogul Now the Raven loses its range. No, that's like saying the Megathron loses its range if you fit blasters instead of rails. You can use cruise missiles or T2 torps if you want range, but you'll have to sacrifice damage to do so, just like every other race has to. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 19:59:00 - [109] Originally by: shinsushi Originally by: Akita T Well, the question still remains, IF they leave the current range changes on torps (hopefully not), then HAMs and Torps would have identical maxranges before ship skills... which is, to say the least, STUPID. Ummm.... HAMs go 20.25km with max skills. Wouldn't the new torps go out to 30km?? Only with the Raven's velocity bonus, apparently. I haven't looked for myself. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:03:00 - [110] Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 13/10/2007 20:03:40 Both the range buff'ed HAMs on TQ and the range adjusted torps on SiSi right now hat 20'250m range with velocity / flight time skill at 5. [Edit]Typo. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:10:00 - [111] Originally by: Kelron Queldine Originally by: Ogul Now the Raven loses its range. No, that's like saying the Megathron loses its range if you fit blasters instead of rails. You can use cruise missiles or T2 torps if you want range, but you'll have to sacrifice damage to do so, just like every other race has to. The Raven is not a viable close range ship. Increasing its damage to sub-par levels won't change that. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Aeran Hermas Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:13:00 - [112] If their boosting torp ROF, I hope they boost launcher capacity, too. Torp launchers already run dry pretty fast as it is. As for the range cut, I hope it gets a bit better balance before its rolled out. Also, some missions are going to be awful difficult without being able to use torps (Vengeance, anyone?) So far, it seems like another PvE nerf... but we'll wait and see how it balances out. -- Aeran Hermas
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:13:00 - [113] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 13/10/2007 20:03:40 Both the range buff'ed HAMs on TQ and the range adjusted torps on SiSi right now hat 20'250m range with velocity / flight time skill at 5. [Edit]Typo. aha, ok then thats a bit daff imho. They should bump up torps to have a 30km range I think, then worry about the raven's bonus.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:19:00 - [114] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Kelron Queldine Originally by: Ogul Now the Raven loses its range. No, that's like saying the Megathron loses its range if you fit blasters instead of rails. You can use cruise missiles or T2 torps if you want range, but you'll have to sacrifice damage to do so, just like every other race has to. The Raven is not a viable close range ship. Increasing its damage to sub-par levels won't change that. Can you explain that for someone who doesn't fly Caldari? The only two reasons I can think of is that the torp damage is currently much lower than other close range weapons, which is being changed, and also that the Raven is slow. The speed doesn't seem like such a big issue as other close range ships will be coming to you anyway. By the way, I do agree that the torp range should be higher than it currently is on SiSi, but over 100km is far too much. Maybe 40-60km on a Raven would be reasonable? --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Mush Morton Caldari Wolf Echelon Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:30:00 - [115] I would agree with that last point. I'm fine with trading range for damage potential, but 30km is a bit too steep. A maximum range (with skills) of 50km sounds pretty good to me. ----------------- Molon Labe!
Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:30:00 - [116] Why are torpedoes being driven more and more to be used against capital ships and POS when there are already citadel torpedoes for that. The Raven is not a fast ship to have such short range weapons and doesn't have the tank to survive long against capitals or POS. T2 Rage torps are already for extremely HIGH signature targets, as are citadel torps. And now it seems T1 torps are headed in that same direction . I guess Javelins may still be useful, but for that I might as well just use cruise missiles. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Syriano Keldon	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:32:00 - [117] Well yeah torps do not need a nerf, however, this is what happens the ****s that whine about everything needs to be nerfed so that they can be the best get what they want and its there turn. OMGZ NERF GALLENTE< NERF NOS< NERF BLASTERS CCP, hey why dont we nerf torps insted* Im sure if nobody made nerf threads we would not be facing this, and CCP's nerf bat would not be on viagra.
Azmodeus Valar	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:53:00 - [118] I'd like to see a nice gang of a few new torp ravens with a few new raptors to tackle. Have half the raptors load a web, the others load a TP.
Matiaj	Posted - 2007.10.13 20:54:00 - [119] Edited by: Matiaj on 13/10/2007 20:54:19 Originally by: Shadowsword Current Torp Raven: 826 DPS AC Tempest: 876 DPS Neutron Megathron: 1226 DPS Pulse Armageddon: 1172 DPS Singularity Torp Raven: 1047 DPS Things of note: [...] 1050 DPS at 25-30km is way, way over the top... Thing of note : AC Tempest, Neutron Megathron, Pulse Armageddon, can actually do full damage to HACs and CSs without dedicating 2-3 medslots to painters.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:07:00 - [120] It's fairly easy for a HAC to orbit too fast for BS guns. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Cosmo Raata Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:16:00 - [121] And now the niche Amarr had (best mid range (pulses)) is now gone with no Amarr fix in sight. I love how Amarr keep getting the shaft. Don't Ban me for my Love of Amarr!
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:23:00 - [122] Originally by: Kelron Queldine Originally by: Ogul The Raven is not a viable close range ship. Increasing its damage to sub-par levels won't change that. Can you explain that for someone who doesn't fly Caldari? The only two reasons I can think of is that the torp damage is currently much lower than other close range weapons, which is being changed, and also that the Raven is slow. The speed doesn't seem like such a big issue as other close range ships will be coming to you anyway. By the way, I do agree that the torp range should be higher than it currently is on SiSi, but over 100km is far too much. Maybe 40-60km on a Raven would be reasonable? In a nutshell: To be close range you need an MWD and a web. The newly nerfed torps will make a mid slot damage mod (aka target painter) pretty much mandatory (2 would be better), which leaves you with 3 mid slots for a tank (and you will need a tank if you go close range against anything), and you still have no warp scrambler. Now you could think "well, fit an armor tank instead", which is impossible because 6 siege launchers already use up your grid. And you need the slots for damage mods anyway. However you do it, the new torp raven will do less damage, tank less and be slower than - for example - a blaster megathron. But it will have 10-20km more range. Wow. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:28:00 - [123] Originally by: Ogul In a nutshell: To be close range you need an MWD and a web. I really can't see why you need a web with 30km range, or an MWD particularly, unless you're fighting sniper ships. I do agree with you that the nerf is a bit too much, I just don't think it's as bad as you're making out. It would be reasonable to either lower the fitting requirements on siege launchers to bring them in line with other close range weapons, or to give them an extra 20km or so range over the current SiSi range. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:35:00 - [124] Originally by: Kelron Queldine I really can't see why you need a web with 30km range, or an MWD particularly, unless you're fighting sniper ships. If you are fit for damage and can't get into range, you are useless. The web is needed because you can't keep your mwd running forever. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:41:00 - [125] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Kelron Queldine I really can't see why you need a web with 30km range, or an MWD particularly, unless you're fighting sniper ships. If you are fit for damage and can't get into range, you are useless. The web is needed because you can't keep your mwd running forever. Yes, I know, but are we talking about a situation where both sides want to engage? Because if another short range BS wants to engage you in a Raven, he's unlikely to be able to do it outside of torp range. And if we're talking larger gangs, then I'd hope you'd have some tackler ships with you. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:47:00 - [126] Originally by: Kelron Queldine Yes, I know, but are we talking about a situation where both sides want to engage? Because if another short range BS wants to engage you in a Raven, he's unlikely to be able to do it outside of torp range. And if we're talking larger gangs, then I'd hope you'd have some tackler ships with you. In that case you could fit a 5 slot shield tank and a painter but I wouldn't expect this setup to perform well in the vast majority of scenarios. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:53:00 - [127] It depends what you call 'the vast majority of scenarios'. I don't think it would be very good for 0.0 fleet stuff, but that's not an area I have a lot of experience in. It wouldn't be much good for piracy (0.0 or low sec) or solo either, but that's nothing new. It should work fine in a smaller BS gang with support, or for camping or empire wars. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Lilian Long	Posted - 2007.10.13 21:54:00 - [128] Originally by: Matiaj AC Tempest, Neutron Megathron, Pulse Armageddon, can actually do full damage to HACs and CSs without dedicating 2-3 medslots to painters. Can't be full damage to HACs. Except the hac is mwd'ing and that without transversal. Those damage figures were probably for the 800mm autocannon, which has 400mm sig resolution. A deimos has 160m sig radius. That tells me that that AC tempest can't deal full damage to a stillstanding deimos.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:02:00 - [129] Originally by: Lilian Long Originally by: Matiaj AC Tempest, Neutron Megathron, Pulse Armageddon, can actually do full damage to HACs and CSs without dedicating 2-3 medslots to painters. Can't be full damage to HACs. Except the hac is mwd'ing and that without transversal. Those damage figures were probably for the 800mm autocannon, which has 400mm sig resolution. A deimos has 160m sig radius. That tells me that that AC tempest can't deal full damage to a stillstanding deimos. If both ships sit still you can have 1000m signature resolution and 1m sig radius and you will still hit 100%. The sig res/sig rad ratio is a tracking multiplier not a separate hit roll. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:06:00 - [130] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Kelron Queldine I really can't see why you need a web with 30km range, or an MWD particularly, unless you're fighting sniper ships. If you are fit for damage and can't get into range, you are useless. The web is needed because you can't keep your mwd running forever. He is saying the web isnt as valuable when you dont need to keep someone away ;)
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:06:00 - [131] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Kelron Queldine Yes, I know, but are we talking about a situation where both sides want to engage? Because if another short range BS wants to engage you in a Raven, he's unlikely to be able to do it outside of torp range. And if we're talking larger gangs, then I'd hope you'd have some tackler ships with you. In that case you could fit a 5 slot shield tank and a painter but I wouldn't expect this setup to perform well in the vast majority of scenarios. And this is different from the maelstrom how? This is an excellent change for caldari and I agree with it, but it does take away the one last niche amarr had, medium ranged DPS at the BS level. Now ravens can outdamage geddons at 45km, and use no cap to do so.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:07:00 - [132] Hmm, higher damage against big targets? Am I sensing an attempt to make Torp a weapon of choice when killing caps/supercaps? ------------------------------------------------
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:23:00 - [133] Originally by: James Lyrus And, if CCP would see clear to switching 'guided missile precision' into 'missile precision' so it actually applied to more than half the weapons, that'd be lovely. While they're at it, they could make missile precision bonuses from implants & boosters apply to unguided warheads as well. The fact that Crash does not work with rockets, HAMs, or torpedoes severely dampens its usability. ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:29:00 - [134] Originally by: shinsushi Originally by: Akita T Well, the question still remains, IF they leave the current range changes on torps (hopefully not), then HAMs and Torps would have identical maxranges before ship skills... which is, to say the least, STUPID. Ummm.... HAMs go 20.25km with max skills. Wouldn't the new torps go out to 30km?? Only on a ship with a missile range bonus (like the Raven, missile flight speed). On unbonused ships, HAM range is identical to Torpedo range. 4 sec * 2250 m/sec = 9 km = 6 sec * 1500 m/sec At max skills, 9km1.51.5 = 20.25 km max range (but never ACTUALLY hit that far, more like 19.5 km or so tops) On a Raven, L5 Caldari BS, yeah, you do get roughly 30km. But only on the Raven and nothing else. _ 1\|2\|3
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:49:00 - [135] I'd just like to ask. What is the problem the changes solve? If it ain't broken, don't fix it... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 22:57:00 - [136] Originally by: Laboratus I'd just like to ask. What is the problem the changes solve? If it ain't broken, don't fix it... The problem of the Raven being a 'PvE ship' is the main one, I'd imagine. Being able to dish out 600+ DPS of the damage type of your choice at over 100km is brilliant for PvE. It's less useful in PvP because missiles take too long to reach the target in sniper fleet fights, and in close range fights the damage is considerably lower than the turret BS. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:03:00 - [137] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: shinsushi Originally by: Akita T Well, the question still remains, IF they leave the current range changes on torps (hopefully not), then HAMs and Torps would have identical maxranges before ship skills... which is, to say the least, STUPID. Ummm.... HAMs go 20.25km with max skills. Wouldn't the new torps go out to 30km?? Only on a ship with a missile range bonus (like the Raven, missile flight speed). On unbonused ships, HAM range is identical to Torpedo range. 4 sec * 2250 m/sec = 9 km = 6 sec * 1500 m/sec At max skills, 9km1.51.5 = 20.25 km max range (but never ACTUALLY hit that far, more like 19.5 km or so tops) On a Raven, L5 Caldari BS, yeah, you do get roughly 30km. But only on the Raven and nothing else. You make it sound like there are more than 2 ships that use torps. 20km range torps are perfectly fine on the phoon, 30km range torps is perfectly fine for the raven. In conclusion, its a lot of whining over nothing.
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:11:00 - [138] Edited by: Wrayeth on 13/10/2007 23:14:49 Originally by: Gamesguy 20km range torps are perfectly fine on the phoon, 30km range torps is perfectly fine for the raven. In conclusion, its a lot of whining over nothing. Not true, actually. Engagements do start within 30km, but they often don't stay within 30km as opponents maneuver around the battlefield. As such, the raven's immobility and the limited range of torpedos will make the torp raven much less useful. Engaging a gang that has a torp raven? Alrighty - MWD more than 30km from it. Suddenly, it's DPS stops for about 20 seconds while it switches to javelin torps, followed by its renewed fire doing a LOT less damage. Simply put, unless they significantly increase the raven's mobility (i.e. reduce mass and inertia modifier and move a high to a mid so it can fit MWD), it will still largely suck. Plus, it will be far and away less useful for the one thing it is currently good at: PvE. If the change actually made it good in PvP, then that would be fine (I would love to have reason to fly ravens in PvP again), but that, sadly, is not the case. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:19:00 - [139] Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:23:23 Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:21:30 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ogul In that case you could fit a 5 slot shield tank and a painter but I wouldn't expect this setup to perform well in the vast majority of scenarios. And this is different from the maelstrom how? Last time I checked the maelstrom was a turret ship (again 400m sig for its guns) that didn't need target painters. And its bonus is like a built-in shield boost amp (in effect: an additional mid slot). --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:25:00 - [140] Originally by: Ogul Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:23:23 Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:21:30 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ogul In that case you could fit a 5 slot shield tank and a painter but I wouldn't expect this setup to perform well in the vast majority of scenarios. And this is different from the maelstrom how? Last time I checked the maelstrom was a turret ship (again 400m sig for its guns) that didn't need target painters. And its bonus is like a built-in shield boost amp (in effect: an additional mid slot). Last I checked fall-off doesnt mean free damage, maelstrom with 3 falloff rigs is doing much less dps than the raven with 3 velocity rigs at 45km, not to mention the raven can just switch to javelin and still do 800DPS.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:25:00 - [141] Edited by: Laboratus on 13/10/2007 23:27:06 ok, consider target is a bs with MWD on. It's moving at ~1.3-1.5km/s depending on skills and ship. You'r missiles have speed of 1.5-3km/s and flight time of said 9s depending on skills and ship. The missiles are gaining the ship at a rate of 0-1600m/s, so the range you can expect to hit a ship is actually 0-15300m... This is not good. At all... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:27:00 - [142] Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 13/10/2007 23:14:49 Originally by: Gamesguy 20km range torps are perfectly fine on the phoon, 30km range torps is perfectly fine for the raven. In conclusion, its a lot of whining over nothing. Not true, actually. Engagements do start within 30km, but they often don't stay within 30km as opponents maneuver around the battlefield. As such, the raven's immobility and the limited range of torpedos will make the torp raven much less useful. Engaging a gang that has a torp raven? Alrighty - MWD more than 30km from it. Suddenly, it's DPS stops for about 20 seconds while it switches to javelin torps, followed by its renewed fire doing a LOT less damage. Simply put, unless they significantly increase the raven's mobility (i.e. reduce mass and inertia modifier and move a high to a mid so it can fit MWD), it will still largely suck. Plus, it will be far and away less useful for the one thing it is currently good at: PvE. If the change actually made it good in PvP, then that would be fine (I would love to have reason to fly ravens in PvP again), but that, sadly, is not the case. Oh please, while your entire gang including BS are mwding 30km doing no damage you just lost 2 battleships cause your turret ships cant hit **** while mwding but your enemy are hitting you perfectly fine. All this so their raven deal 200 less DPS? I'd gladly trade 200 dps for 2 of your battleships anytime.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:29:00 - [143] Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 13/10/2007 23:27:06 ok, consider target is a bs with MWD on. It's moving at ~1.3-1.5km/s depending on skills and ship. You'r missiles have speed of 1.5-3km/s and flight time of said 9s depending on skills and ship. The missiles are gaining the ship at a rate of 0-1600m/s, so the range you can expect to hit a ship is actually 0-15300m... This is not good. At all... It takes a bs like 20 seconds to get up to speed with a mwd, so thats 20 seconds of free damage, and what exactly is that bs gonna be doing to you with the mwd on? And is that before or after they get webbed by something called support?
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:32:00 - [144] Spamming 700+ dps at 150km while support tackles and good tank >> spamming 900 dps at 30km with support tackling and poor/no tank ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:33:00 - [145] Originally by: Laboratus Spamming 700+ dps at 150km while support tackles and good tank >> spamming 900 dps at 30km with support tackling and poor/no tank Please list the ships capable of dealing 700+ dps at 150km, and you might see the problem. --------------------------- Signatures are for the weak.
Tonkin D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:36:00 - [146] all i can say is thank god im using turrets now.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:39:00 - [147] Originally by: Laboratus Spamming 700+ dps at 150km while support tackles and good tank >> spamming 900 dps at 30km with support tackling and poor/no tank Which is why it's been nerfed. 700dps at 150km is utterly ridiculous. A Gank ship (which is what 900dps + drones is) should have little to no tank and be limited by range.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:45:00 - [148] Imho delayed dps and damage reduction from speed offsets the advantages nicely... Missiles are supposed to be fundamentally different, if the change is implemented, they are pretty much identical with small variations... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:48:00 - [149] Originally by: Laboratus Imho delayed dps and damage reduction from speed offsets the advantages nicely... Missiles are supposed to be fundamentally different, if the change is implemented, they are pretty much identical with small variations... Turret ships also have a kind of 'damage reduction from speed', if your target has the sense not to fly in a straight line. --------------------------- Vanilla Crazy Cake!
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:50:00 - [150] To avoid tracking you need to orbit just outside web range and orbit like crazy, or TD and orbit a bit slower, but with missiles, mwd on and zoom zoom is enough in any case... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:51:00 - [151] having used these id say the changes are for the good and can be used in some interesting ways. damage is ace which is good. the explosion radius i think may be verging on the limit any more would be too far this is about the max it could go before making torps point less, personally i think it may siute it being slightly lower but only like 10-20m max the need of painter dose make fiting tanks rather hard it can be worked but you do have to think about. all in all quite a posertive change as long as you think about what you are doing.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.13 23:55:00 - [152] Originally by: Laboratus Spamming 700+ dps at 150km while support tackles and good tank >> spamming 900 dps at 30km with support tackling and poor/no tank You see there is this ammo called javelin torpedos, which allow the raven to do 700+dps at 150km. Oh and did I mention they move as fast as cruise missiles?
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:24:00 - [153] Massive Caldari buff. Stealth Minmatar TP buff. I <3 Rev3 so much already.
Kyguard Fire Mandrill	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:33:00 - [154] Originally by: Cosmo Raata And now the niche Amarr had (best mid range (pulses)) is now gone with no Amarr fix in sight. I love how Amarr keep getting the shaft. quotin dis, its sad tbh :/ - Latest Video
F90OEX	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:46:00 - [155] Originally by: Vitrael Massive Caldari buff. Yeah its a buff alright, in wrong direction Anyone who truly knows how to fit a raven for gang pvp knows what i'm talking about.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.14 00:55:00 - [156] Edited by: d026 on 14/10/2007 00:55:24 Originally by: F90OEX Originally by: Vitrael Massive Caldari buff. Yeah its a buff alright, in wrong direction Anyone who truly knows how to fit a raven for gang pvp knows what i'm talking about. damps + TP + armortank?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:02:00 - [157] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 14/10/2007 00:55:24 Originally by: F90OEX Originally by: Vitrael Massive Caldari buff. Yeah its a buff alright, in wrong direction Anyone who truly knows how to fit a raven for gang pvp knows what i'm talking about. damps + TP + armortank? owned ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room...
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:18:00 - [158] Originally by: Kelron Queldine Originally by: Laboratus Spamming 700+ dps at 150km while support tackles and good tank >> spamming 900 dps at 30km with support tackling and poor/no tank Please list the ships capable of dealing 700+ dps at 150km, and you might see the problem. I'm pretty sure you forgot, it happens to all of us, don't worry, but missiles have to fly to their target, so your figures are the typical point of view of the QuickFit PvPer. No offense. For those who actually PvP in ravens in fleets, they pretty much know that by the time the missiles connect, more than often the target is either dead or warped away. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:22:00 - [159] Originally by: Sorja Originally by: Kelron Queldine Originally by: Laboratus Spamming 700+ dps at 150km while support tackles and good tank >> spamming 900 dps at 30km with support tackling and poor/no tank Please list the ships capable of dealing 700+ dps at 150km, and you might see the problem. I'm pretty sure you forgot, it happens to all of us, don't worry, but missiles have to fly to their target, so your figures are the typical point of view of the QuickFit PvPer. No offense. For those who actually PvP in ravens in fleets, they pretty much know that by the time the missiles connect, more than often the target is either dead or warped away. So what you're saying is that torps having such a long range in the first place is mostly pointless for (fleet) PvP? Then what is there to complain about? --------------------------- Vanilla Crazy Cake!
F90OEX	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:24:00 - [160] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 14/10/2007 00:55:24 Originally by: F90OEX Originally by: Vitrael Massive Caldari buff. Yeah its a buff alright, in wrong direction Anyone who truly knows how to fit a raven for gang pvp knows what i'm talking about. damps + TP + armortank? owned Get on SISI we will see who gets owned...
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:35:00 - [161] Originally by: Sorja Originally by: Kelron Queldine Originally by: Laboratus Spamming 700+ dps at 150km while support tackles and good tank >> spamming 900 dps at 30km with support tackling and poor/no tank Please list the ships capable of dealing 700+ dps at 150km, and you might see the problem. I'm pretty sure you forgot, it happens to all of us, don't worry, but missiles have to fly to their target, so your figures are the typical point of view of the QuickFit PvPer. No offense. For those who actually PvP in ravens in fleets, they pretty much know that by the time the missiles connect, more than often the target is either dead or warped away. Sorja, when was the last time you actually pvped? Looking at the kb you havent done any of it since the fix war back in dec/jan. Not to mention it takes javelins only about 15-20 seconds to move 150km, in small/medium sized gangs thats not much time at all. No one uses ravens for large gangs.
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.10.14 01:45:00 - [162] Edited by: Vitrael on 14/10/2007 01:45:18 Who needs age-old damp whoring on a raven when they can crest 900 DPS with Torps now? Sure, keep your little armor tank if you like, frees up room in those mids for tackling and target painters. Yarrrr.
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 02:52:00 - [163] Again to repeat, this is a huge buff for ravens in pvp. It's even a buff for pve with javelin torps doing heaps more dps. So it may not be a huge buff for 1v1 pvp.. but since when are ravens good for 1v1 recently? For gangs, this is a great change for ravens as they've been discarded before for lack of dps where it matters (close range pvp), now they have the best dps within 30km IF you got 1 painter. Geddon and Mega may have high paper dps, but they suffer hugely for falloff or longer range ammo use to hit ~20km. If there's no BS targets, switch to jav torps and still do impressive dps to orbiting hacs/cs/cruisers. I fail to see how this change is a nerf.
Raketefrau Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 02:54:00 - [164] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Please reserve judgment on this until we've finalized (or at least improved) our design on torpedos. Fine, but also please keep in mind that torps are Caldari's best anti-POS weapon. POS warfare sucks enough as it is, PLEASE don't make it even worse for Caldari pilots.
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 03:01:00 - [165] Originally by: Raketefrau Originally by: CCP Zulupark Please reserve judgment on this until we've finalized (or at least improved) our design on torpedos. Fine, but also please keep in mind that torps are Caldari's best anti-POS weapon. POS warfare sucks enough as it is, PLEASE don't make it even worse for Caldari pilots. Torps are the best anti pos weapons now period. No other sniper does that much damage at 150km or beyond. With the change, jav torps will be able to do higher dps than current torps at the same range. It costs about twice as much though. :D
Inamarian	Posted - 2007.10.14 03:05:00 - [166] Quit whining.
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.14 03:32:00 - [167] Originally by: Inamarian Quit whining. Quit being clueless. P.S. While you're at it, quit whining about people whining. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Maaku	Posted - 2007.10.14 03:56:00 - [168] Suggestion: If this change (at whatever particular adjustments) goes through, the name of the ordnance should be changed. The name Torpedo perfectly describes what they do now (slow-firing, hard-hitting, potentially long range but they take a long time to get to their target), but doesn't really describe what the change would make them. The logical name (Super Heavy Assault Missile) has an unfortunate acronym, presumably something better could be figured out. Change is inevitable in MMOs and I'll adapt as needed, but I'd miss the way torpedoes are now. They have a certain flavor that's largely unique in the game.
Fabrezio Soldiers Of Darkness Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.14 04:41:00 - [169] See, everyone is thinking about pvp. Torps aren't used in pvp anyways and noone is going to use them when you need to be within 30km, all CCP did was effectively make Torps worthless for pve. You turned something that could have been used for either (and just wasn't the greatest at pvp) and made it solely for pvp and not even good at it. You can't rat with it, you can't mission run with it now, you get called primary with it. Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.14 04:55:00 - [170] Originally by: Amateratsu You do know how slow a BS is? with a max range of 27km (even less if the target is moving away from you) you will not be hitting jack s**t with torps... Even with the rof bonus torps are now as useless as Hams which also do not have the range to actually be able to hit anything... A BS fitted with torps will be defenceless against All smaller ships that can now easerly outrun and avoid his torps. The only point to fitting torps now will be for seiges of stationary objects like POS's. Fortunately i stopped using torps a long time ago... so am not really botherd... Amateratsu wonders what will be nerf... emm changed for the better next Excuse me good sir but why do you need more then 27km range on high damage rounds? You pvp? Uhm T2 disruptor only goes 24km...gate fights are within this range too... You rat/mission? Youll have to fit long range ammo or Ab like everyone else. No more enter, light up torp bays and go afk... Your torps will do more damage up close and finally give caldari a more viable dps up close inline with the other 3 races. Cant shoot small ships with torps? Epic: LOL. What race can with large turrets and high damage ammo? Ah now I understood what you meant you want an allround high damage torp that can hit from sick ranges and can also damage any sized ship. Gotcha.....
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Union Enterprises	Posted - 2007.10.14 05:39:00 - [171] Originally by: Shevar An apoc can't fit 8 t2 megabeams (let alone tachs). but it can fit 7 megapulse which is rather the point. -- Talking in Circles is more dizzying than walking in them... Tralala
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 05:51:00 - [172] Originally by: Fabrezio See, everyone is thinking about pvp. Torps aren't used in pvp anyways and noone is going to use them when you need to be within 30km, all CCP did was effectively make Torps worthless for pve. You turned something that could have been used for either (and just wasn't the greatest at pvp) and made it solely for pvp and not even good at it. You can't rat with it, you can't mission run with it now, you get called primary with it. Roflmao. I guess blasters and ACs are useless for pvp too since they all have the same or less range than the new torps. And its called javelin torps, PvE just got a MASSIVE boost. I was worried about my npc raven till I realized that javelin torps effectively only cost 20k more isk to kill a 1.9mil isk rat and they will do it much faster than the old t1 torps.
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2007.10.14 06:37:00 - [173] Disclaimer - I havn't checked test server myslef, but if javelins damage was increased it's fine and dandy. But if not - it's a raven nerf. Now you can sneak with TP raven and rages because rarely raven targeted as a primary in gang warfare (trust me i actually one of these guys that use TP+torps) After this "nerf"/change everyone knows that boo - paper thin raven - kill it. And it will be popped in few secs.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.14 06:45:00 - [174] Its a universal 25% rof increase(or effectively 33% dps increase) on the LAUNCHER. So yes the new launcher with javelins do more damage than the old one with faction torps, and they also have all the benefits of javelin torps.
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2007.10.14 06:50:00 - [175] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Excuse me good sir but why do you need more then 27km range on high damage rounds? You pvp? Uhm T2 disruptor only goes 24km...gate fights are within this range too... You rat/mission? Youll have to fit long range ammo or Ab like everyone else. No more enter, light up torp bays and go afk... Your torps will do more damage up close and finally give caldari a more viable dps up close inline with the other 3 races. Cant shoot small ships with torps? Epic: LOL. What race can with large turrets and high damage ammo? Ah now I understood what you meant you want an allround high damage torp that can hit from sick ranges and can also damage any sized ship. Gotcha..... Because torps prenerfed in many ways already. There is absolutly no incenetive to use torp over AC. (And look at the fitting ). They doesn't hit fast targets, they doesn't hit small targets, they actually has to travel before hitting anything. Now without TP they will be weaker againt most BS's. WTF i say. Raven already slow and have maneuvrability of a ship sized brick. Blasters/Pulses will chew through it. As for AC, well take a look at the tempest it's pretty small AND has better tanking options.
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2007.10.14 06:51:00 - [176] Edited by: Zar Dim on 14/10/2007 06:53:48 Originally by: Gamesguy Its a universal 25% rof increase(or effectively 33% dps increase) on the LAUNCHER. It's fine then, rant is over. I'll better be calling it T2 boost :)
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 07:53:00 - [177] Torps now fit the Rocket->HAM->Torp progression like LightMis->HvyMis->Cruise. THUKKER -Be Paranoid
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.14 08:45:00 - [178] If you lose dps over targets being dead before missiles hit or warping away you don't know how missiles should be used in gang... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.14 10:17:00 - [179] Originally by: Zana Kito Again to repeat, this is a huge buff for ravens in pvp. It's even a buff for pve with javelin torps doing heaps more dps. Somehow I don't want to pve with t2 ammo, fitting issues of those t2 launchers aside. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.10.14 10:35:00 - [180] OK i haven't read all the posts nor checked on sis so no idea if this has allready been brought up, but have citadel torps been affected in any way or just the normal T1 torps? CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.14 11:20:00 - [181] Originally by: Laboratus I'd just like to ask. What is the problem the changes solve? If it ain't broken, don't fix it... Torps and Cruises basically being too similar I guess. Or perhaps the Raven being a fairly worthless PvP ship, because of low damage, low maneuverability, and having to make some serious sacrifices to tanking to be able to fit key PvP mods. What this does, is mean a 'full gank' raven will be able to put out some impressive amounts of damage at short range, but will be a glass cannon. I approve of this change's general direction. IMO torps _should_ be shorter range, higher damage. The increased sig makes me a bit edgy though, but I still have hopes for them applying guided missile precision to _all_ missiles. Oh, and it'd be really nice if I could use torps in my raven to shoot POSes still. But then, I guess you can't really use shortrange weapons on other races to do this either. PvE is fine, as cruises work fine, and will continue to do so. There's really not much in at the moment anyway, as to how fast a cruise raven clears a mission, as opposed to a torp raven, simply due to the fact the cruises are more effective against the smaller ships. My major reason for using torps whilst missioning, is because I like the explosions. I'm broadly very happy about the direction of this change. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Ararius EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.10.14 11:44:00 - [182] For the PvE side, I dont want too see npc ravens sitting at 50km spamming torps at me! Im ugly, just look at my face!
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.14 11:54:00 - [183] Originally by: Gamesguy I can fit t2 sieges fine in a pve setup, and javelin torps only cost 300 isk more/shot than regulars(which cost about 350). The difference between Antimatter and Void L is about 400%, and that kind of ammo isn't even used for PVE - let's see how this plays out for missiles. Availability would be another issue. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.14 12:43:00 - [184] I'm just trying to fit up a setup in EFT to incorporate the new changes. Things I need : 100mn MicroWarpDrive (1300 PG Avg.) Heavy Capacitor Booster (1800 PG Avg.) Target Painter (1 PG ) 6 Siege Missile Launcher IIs (9900 PG) Raven has 11875 PG. As you can see this doesn't add up to less than 12K and I haven't even bothered to fit some sort of tank yet. So what do I do? I fit a Reactor Control Unit. That leaves me with 600 PG to play with, I think I should fit another if I intend to have anything in the remaining slots. OK cool I now have 15.7k PG. Let's fit an X-L SB II. Whoops looks like I can only fit 2 BCS II now. Need a Co-Processor in the last low slot. Anyway, with 3 slots to tank I managed to get 350 dps tanked with max skills and serious CPU issues. But at least my damage is good right? Next attempt, armor tank! CPU is really frickin tight and PG also tight, but at least I can tank 200 DPS. What I'm saying is although getting a damage boost is nice, the fact we have to either cut out 3 mid slots of an already slot intensive tank is not so nice. Did I also mention Raven has the lowest sig res of all the tier 2 BS, so having a sensor booster is quite important. Sucks to be a Raven pilot. _______________
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.14 13:01:00 - [185] Originally by: Dez Affinity I'm just trying to fit up a setup in EFT to incorporate the new changes. Things I need : 100mn MicroWarpDrive (1300 PG Avg.) Heavy Capacitor Booster (1800 PG Avg.) Target Painter (1 PG ) 6 Siege Missile Launcher IIs (9900 PG) Raven has 11875 PG. As you can see this doesn't add up to less than 12K and I haven't even bothered to fit some sort of tank yet. So what do I do? I fit a Reactor Control Unit. That leaves me with 600 PG to play with, I think I should fit another if I intend to have anything in the remaining slots. OK cool I now have 15.7k PG. Let's fit an X-L SB II. Whoops looks like I can only fit 2 BCS II now. Need a Co-Processor in the last low slot. Anyway, with 3 slots to tank I managed to get 350 dps tanked with max skills and serious CPU issues. But at least my damage is good right? Next attempt, armor tank! CPU is really frickin tight and PG also tight, but at least I can tank 200 DPS. What I'm saying is although getting a damage boost is nice, the fact we have to either cut out 3 mid slots of an already slot intensive tank is not so nice. Did I also mention Raven has the lowest sig res of all the tier 2 BS, so having a sensor booster is quite important. Sucks to be a Raven pilot. the tardeoff is clearly dmg or tank.. i odnt have any problem with that. but i can unsertsand that you feel unconfortable flying paper tin.. but so far my raven setups dont allow a tank anyway.. so i highly appreciate this boost/nerf...
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.14 13:06:00 - [186] I know it's a new concept for Caldari players not to have a large tank and 3 damage mods, but most gank ships have to make do with a 4 slot tank. --------------------------- Vanilla Crazy Cake!
ZenTex Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.14 13:24:00 - [187] Basically a good change. Caldari get their high dmg short range weapon. We all know rocket kessies can hurt, this is the BS version. However, the range as stated here is way too low. It would make sense if not for th fact that caldari can't sacrifice anymore meds (PvP). In Fleets/gangs I have yet to see a MWD raven, and for a reason. Gank for tank? tradeoff isn't worth it IMHO.In PvP already too many meds are used. Also, a raven is not only slow, but also slugish. Anyone will not only outrun you, but also outmanoeuver you. so swap a BCU for an I-stab, poof, more DPS lost. Lets face it, caldari as they are now are not the race for short/med range high DPS weapons. Will people adapt? I don't think so. Look at HAM's. Same theory, more DPS for less range. But noone uses them. I manufactured some hams some time ago and they sat on the on the market for 3 months at lowest price in the region. a 100 sold, the 9900 remaining timed out. I myself desperately tried to find a use for them, but didn't manage to fit a cruiser/BC to get a target in HAM range, keep them there and hurt them without going down like a brick long before getting in range. ATM I mainly use cruise missiles in PvP, atleast some of them get to the target before they warp/die. Torps are restricted to BC's/BS's as they are now even with TP's (slow as hell, doesn't take much of a speed fit on cruisers to outrun them). I hope the DEV's take a good look at this before they make these torp changes permanent. There's little a sledgehammer can't fix. If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer. If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
Omnium Domitor Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.14 14:26:00 - [188] Originally by: Akita T Only on a ship with a missile range bonus (like the Raven, missile flight speed). On unbonused ships, HAM range is identical to Torpedo range. 4 sec * 2250 m/sec = 9 km = 6 sec * 1500 m/sec At max skills, 9km1.51.5 = 20.25 km max range (but never ACTUALLY hit that far, more like 19.5 km or so tops) On a Raven, L5 Caldari BS, yeah, you do get roughly 30km. But only on the Raven and nothing else. Max skills on a Raven/Caracal/Flycatcher: Flycatcher Rockets: 15.1875km (FT: 3 MV: 5062.5) Ok Caracal HAMs: 30.375km (FT: 6 MV: 5062.5) 2x the distance of Rockets... not bad Raven Torps: 30.375km (FT: 9 MV: 3375) Same as the damn HAMs on a caracal. Originally by: Futher Bezluden Torps now fit the Rocket->HAM->Torp progression like LightMis->HvyMis->Cruise. Not quite: Current:()=Max Skill Modded []=Max Skill+Ship modded Rocket FT:2(3) MV:2250(3375)[5062.5]=4500(10125)[15187.5] HAM FT:4(6) MV:2250(3375)[5062.5]=9000(20250)[30375] (2x Rocket Range) Torp FT:30(45) MV:1250(1875)[2812.5]=37500(84375)[126562.5] (sticks out like a sore thumb 4x HAM range rather than 2x) Light FT:5(7.5) MV:3750(5625)[8437.5]=18750(42187.5)[63281.25] Heavy FT:10(15) MV:3750(5625)[8437.5]=37500(84375)[126562.5] (2x Light Range) Cruise FT:20(30) MV:3750(5625)[8437.5]=75000(168750)[253125] (2x Heavy Range) SiSi: Rocket FT:2(3) MV:2250(3375)[5062.5]=4500(10125)[15187.5] HAM FT:4(6) MV:2250(3375)[5062.5]=9000(20250)[30375] (2x Rocket Range) Torp FT:6(9) MV:1500(2250)[3375]=9000(20250)[30375] = HAM To make it Identical to the Light>Heavy>Cruise progression the torp would need to be: FT:8(12) MV:2250(3375)[5062.5]=18000(27000)[40500] (2x HAM Range) With Rigs, the Raven would still be viable for PvE. Using max skill modded as base: ()=1x Rocket 2x Hydraulic []=2x Rocket 1x Hydraulic SiSi: Torps: FT:9(10.35)[11.7] MV:2250(4387.24)[3881.25]=20250(45407.94)[45410.62]* Cruise: FT:30(34.5)[39] MV:5625(10968.10)[9703.12]=168750(378399.51)[378421.87]* Inline with Light/Heavy/Cruise: FT:12(14.49)[15.6] MV:3375(4387.2407882)[3881.25]=40500(63571.11)[60547.5]* +Ship FT:12(14.49)[15.6] MV:5062.5(6580.86)[5821.87]=40500(95356.67)[90821.25]* However, to get torps to fit the damage progression from Rockets to HAMs, torp damage would have to changed from 450 to 400 *Speed and Range truncated after 0.01
Tractormech Caldari Fortune's Fools	Posted - 2007.10.14 14:46:00 - [189] "Now I need a MWD, no room for anything now" Have people saying this ever even pvp'd before. Max scram range is 24km. New torp range will be around 30km. You can get away using the new torps without any speed mods at all. Not like a pvp raven ever had any tank at all before anyway.
Gavin Darklighter Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.14 15:32:00 - [190] Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 14/10/2007 15:34:48 Originally by: CCP Zulupark So yeah, I'm guessing you guys saw the changes then :) We just started messing around with this yesterday, and these changes should in fact not have been made public so soon preferably, as we're not done balancing them. But you get the basic concept: shorter range, more damage. Please reserve judgment on this until we've finalized (or at least improved) our design on torpedos. Well I for one love the concept of short range uber damage torps, but I think increasing the explosion radius is the wrong way to nerf the "tracking". What I would like to see is torps get an explosion radius of 320m2 (which is the size of the Typhoon, the smallest BS) but an explosion velocity of around 80m/s. With an 80m/s explosion velocity and Target Navigation Prediction V, you will hit for full damage on any BS moving slower than 160m/s. Doing this would mean that Target Painters are not required for full damage agianst battleships, but at the same time an un-webbed BS with a speed mod would be able to escape most of the damage. Also, this would make torps ineffective agianst smaller fast ships unless they get webbed down (in which case guns can rip them apart too).
Viqer Fell Minmatar Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 15:50:00 - [191] Seems entirely counter-intuitive to me. Surely if they were wanting a equivalent of rockets for bs then this should have been the cruise missiles. Just seems to me that the torpedoes should be the long range bulky bombs and the cruise the shorter range more agile bringers of doom. Click here to visit our site
ZenTex Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.14 15:57:00 - [192] Now in (pvp) need atleast: MWD, Web, painter, Sensor booster, Istab. So even less space for a shield tank and dmg mods, and now cap will be more of an issue than before (Cap eating MWD, no slots for the obligatory cap recharger). All that so a raven might get into range if the fight starts at range (sniper gatecamp anyone) and be able to fire a few torps before popping due to having no tank. That and already having pathetic DPS ( maybe a bit more if torp dmg is increased) makes caldari even less viable in PvP apart from the scorp (primary) or Rokh (meh). Or: use cruises and do even crappier dmg on BS's. Yes, this is a whine. But a justified one. Nerf Raven PvE abilities, go ahead, but the Raven is the laughing stock in PvP already due to slow missiles and poor DPS and needs a bit of a boost. Was training railguns for my Rokh. As a wannabe PvPer I think I'll just go for the proven flavour of the year, Gallente, and get my mechanic skills up ASAP. There's little a sledgehammer can't fix. If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer. If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.14 16:07:00 - [193] Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/10/2007 16:11:29 Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/10/2007 16:09:29 Originally by: ZenTex Now in (pvp) need atleast: MWD, Web, painter, Sensor booster, Istab. Why on Earth are you putting a web on a Raven? The Istab certainly isn't needed either. And the MWD is only essential for getting out of bubbles. You can warp to a tackler, and if the Jav torps end up with a range anything like that of Jav HAMs, you really won't have to worry about a target being out of range. And your comments about HAMs further up are flat wrong. It sounds like your fits and tactics are horribly, horribly wrong...
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 16:25:00 - [194] Originally by: Dez Affinity cleaver maths that saves space and i fully agree wit what you say its blatantly obvious to any raven pilot that fitting on our ships can be limiting at the best. currently most torp ravens have a coproc fitted as standard and then when it comes down to grid we have that boosted by fitting mods as our only real cap recharger mods have built in PG bonuses. then again this seems to be a problem with all caldari ships to be hard to fit cpu wise there are still some T2 fits for the pheonix that still need a co procesor to it guess we are just used to it
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.10.14 16:33:00 - [195] Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/10/2007 16:11:29 Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/10/2007 16:09:29 Originally by: ZenTex Now in (pvp) need atleast: MWD, Web, painter, Sensor booster, Istab. Why on Earth are you putting a web on a Raven? The Istab certainly isn't needed either. And the MWD is only essential for getting out of bubbles. You can warp to a tackler, and if the Jav torps end up with a range anything like that of Jav HAMs, you really won't have to worry about a target being out of range. And your comments about HAMs further up are flat wrong. It sounds like your fits and tactics are horribly, horribly wrong... You use a web because target speed will cancel out your dps from missiles. I could live with the decreased torp range in return for the higher damage. But, there should be lower fitting costs for torps. Why not have 2 tiers of torp launchers (like guns). Siege launchers= high cpu+grid, fast rof Bombardment launcers= less cpu+grid, slower rof
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.14 16:38:00 - [196] i jsut chrunched some numbers and the new raven (rigged and without any tank whatsoever and ok a highly teoretical but non faction pure TII fitting) will be able to dish out FRIGGIN + 1300 DPS! AND YOU CALL THIS A NERF?:)
iiOs Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.14 16:47:00 - [197] Originally by: d026 i jsut chrunched some numbers and the new raven (rigged and without any tank whatsoever and ok a highly teoretical but non faction pure TII fitting) will be able to dish out FRIGGIN + 1300 DPS! AND YOU CALL THIS A NERF?:) you do 1200 in thron, and still got web, scramble, going 1km/s and have 40k of high resistance armor and plenty of hull ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.10.14 16:48:00 - [198] It isn't a nerf, but please remember that a target's sig and velocity will reduce this dps...sometimes drastically. Something with a sig radius of 400m will take 25% less damage.
ZenTex Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.14 16:52:00 - [199] Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/10/2007 16:11:29 Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/10/2007 16:09:29 Originally by: ZenTex Now in (pvp) need atleast: MWD, Web, painter, Sensor booster, Istab. Why on Earth are you putting a web on a Raven? The Istab certainly isn't needed either. And the MWD is only essential for getting out of bubbles. You can warp to a tackler, and if the Jav torps end up with a range anything like that of Jav HAMs, you really won't have to worry about a target being out of range. And your comments about HAMs further up are flat wrong. It sounds like your fits and tactics are horribly, horribly wrong... The web was before in this thread. I guess I misread however why it was needed. I myself have used webs on a cruise raven with precision cruises and succesfully blown the crap out of unlucky speed fitted vaga's and other small crap. Sofar My ravens did have a TP and sensor boosters fitted. If i felt really secure even a scram. The istab: Getting in range is one. staying in range is another. The raven is one of the most sluggish BS's ingame and will be outmanoevred by any short/med range BS knowing the max range of torps. Warping myself in range of a tackler? how exactly? There's little a sledgehammer can't fix. If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer. If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.14 16:54:00 - [200] Originally by: iiOs Originally by: d026 i jsut chrunched some numbers and the new raven (rigged and without any tank whatsoever and ok a highly teoretical but non faction pure TII fitting) will be able to dish out FRIGGIN + 1300 DPS! AND YOU CALL THIS A NERF?:) you do 1200 in thron, and still got web, scramble, going 1km/s and have 40k of high resistance armor and plenty of hull my fit had mwd, injector, 2 x ew mods (damp/ecm) or scram + web , 2 x tp and still doing 1,3k dps
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:09:00 - [201] I think that the esxplosion velocity of all missiles not just torps needs to be looked at like 1 year ago. explosion velocity is the key factor as long as Destiny is as it is = crappy btw. Destiny should be your next large project to look at after Trinity. Until that, tweak the explosion velocity in conjuction with the sig resolution (dmg cloud). Greetings Grim
Dezzereth Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:35:00 - [202] This is a major nerf to the use of the Raven in PVE, especially at some missions where you need to deal lots of damage at higher mid range (Vengeance, and a few others where the NPC BSs stay at around 50km range). And it won't make the Raven more (or less) good for PVP, the major issue being the explosion radius/velocity thing combined with the other attributes. Other ships rarely use Torps as I see it. Raw DPS numbers say nothing, absolutely nothing, especially in this case. All in all I would plea CCP to strongly reconsider this nerf (yes it is one). But as I see it, no matter how unliked these changes are, they will go through anyways. So better save your breath and enjoy the last days the useful Torp.
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:40:00 - [203] Originally by: Dezzereth This is a major nerf to the use of the Raven in PVE, especially at some missions where you need to deal lots of damage at higher mid range (Vengeance, and a few others where the NPC BSs stay at around 50km range). And it won't make the Raven more (or less) good for PVP, the major issue being the explosion radius/velocity thing combined with the other attributes. Other ships rarely use Torps as I see it. Raw DPS numbers say nothing, absolutely nothing, especially in this case. All in all I would plea CCP to strongly reconsider this nerf (yes it is one). But as I see it, no matter how unliked these changes are, they will go through anyways. So better save your breath and enjoy the last days the useful Torp. there should be no pve ship , due to that single reason I appreciate this change! Greetings Grim
Dezzereth Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:42:00 - [204] Edited by: Dezzereth on 14/10/2007 17:42:57 Originally by: Grim Vandal there should be no pve ship , due to that single reason I appreciate this change! Why not? we all need to make ISK, no matter if PVPler or PVEler. At last the Raven had its usefulness. Now its even more niche. Edit: .. more niche in PVP.
Zenobite Flying Under the Influence	Posted - 2007.10.14 17:51:00 - [205] What a pointless nerf, when was the last time anyone whined about torps being overpowered? They already have limited usefulness as it is. I don't have any problem with the range>ROF, but why increase the explosion radius so large it will negate any benefit of the increased rof on the majority of targets.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.14 18:47:00 - [206] Originally by: iiOs Originally by: d026 i jsut chrunched some numbers and the new raven (rigged and without any tank whatsoever and ok a highly teoretical but non faction pure TII fitting) will be able to dish out FRIGGIN + 1300 DPS! AND YOU CALL THIS A NERF?:) you do 1200 in thron, and still got web, scramble, going 1km/s and have 40k of high resistance armor and plenty of hull I got called a 'Quickfit PvPer' earlier in the thread, because I was throwing around numbers about the Raven when i have no experience of actually flying one. A ship I do have experience of flying is the Megathron, and to break the 40k armour mark you're talking about 3 1600mm plates and 3 T2 Trimark rigs. Along with the 3 mag stabs needed for your '1200 dps', it certainly doesn't have high resistances, and takes nearly 3 MWD cycles to reach full speed. Of course, there are much better ways to fit it than simply raising the HP as high as you can, but if you want 'high resistance armour', you won't have anywhere near 40k of it. --------------------------- Vanilla Crazy Cake!
Captain Plumbo Caldari NorCorp Enterprise	Posted - 2007.10.14 19:44:00 - [207] Edited by: Captain Plumbo on 14/10/2007 19:44:43 Originally by: ZenTex ... Will people adapt? I don't think so. Look at HAM's. Same theory, more DPS for less range. But noone uses them. I manufactured some hams some time ago and they sat on the on the market for 3 months at lowest price in the region. a 100 sold, the 9900 remaining timed out. I myself desperately tried to find a use for them, but didn't manage to fit a cruiser/BC to get a target in HAM range, keep them there and hurt them without going down like a brick long before getting in range. ... They need to rework HAMs while they're at it imo, perhaps lower grid requirements or something. As it is now, HAMs needs 20 more grid than regular Heavies.
Futureface01 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.14 19:53:00 - [208] So lets see: PVP'ers : "Wow, awesome changes to Torpedos! Woohoo!" Mission Runners : "Umm, WTF!" I'm in the "Ummm, WTF!" category. To fit 2 target painters means 2 shield hardeners have to come off. To fit 2 target painters and an afterburner II means 2 Shield Hardeners and the Shield Amp have to come off. A mission runner trying to use Torpedos will no longer have the tank to successfully complete Lvl 4 missions. (lets debunk some standard responses right now, shall we) --"Then bring a friend".... If it takes 2 to accomplish what 1 did before, its a 50% nerf to incoming isk and a brutal nerf. --"Then use cruise!".... This still takes away yet another option from mission runners. Mission runners already are forced into a VERY limited selections of ships if your doing it seriously. Making Torpedos have a 27km range means a Raven Mission runner loses 3 medium slots (now occupied by 2 TPs and a AB2). Losing three slots would be too great a nerf, therefore Torpedos would be unusable in missions. I doubt a level 4 can even be done in a standard raven using only 3 slots for hardening/boosting. Angels Extravaganza comes to mind. 3 resist types? Forget about it.... Rigs you say? Get real. No matter how you slice it, if Torpedoes get changed to 27km, mission runners just got nerfed. Now instead of 3 viable ship configurations Raven/Torps, Raven/Cruise, Domi/Drones we have just 2 viable ship configurations. --"Nuh uh! I do level 4s in an ibis!"... Go away. --"But seriously, Command Ships can do level 4s"... Not as fast. So its an Isk/Hr nerf. Not to mention Command Ships take about 6 months of skills to fly. I can do missions today, if tommorow Im supposed to spend 6 months training something else to get back an ability I had today, then its a nerf. CCP gives the world to their PVP'ers, I've come to accept that. But isnt it about time to throw mission runners a bone? On SOMETHING? --"but.......Maruader ships!" Still waiting on proof that its a mission runner and not just a 0.0 rat boat. If it winds up a mission running ship superior to the 2 we already have, I'll be IMPRESSED.
TradeUnion first	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:01:00 - [209] This is a big buff to the Raven versatility. Don't whine about the regular torpedoes, think about the new versatility of the t2 siege launchers - you can choose between short range, lots of damage and long range, high speed with still very good damage. I think this is a buff.
MindDragon Caldari The Flaming Sideburn's	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:10:00 - [210] Okay let's consider the buff topic for a moment for PvE missions: Caldari Navy Torps go for about 5000 isk each T2 Jav. or Rage torps (which nerf the ship's speed and actually get damaged easier on PvE missions so they do less damage) go for about 600isk a piece T1 torps cost about 200isk or so for me to make. So I have to spend more to get the same amount of damage I used to get on T1 torps and at 5000 isk each it would cost about 5m isk or so to do a mission that pays 2m isk. So tell me, how does this work again that this is a buff?? MD ------ This space for rent.
TradeUnion first	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:17:00 - [211] On a regular mission you will fire about 1500 torps. 1500 x 600 = 900 000 ISK. If they were regular, it could cost 1500 x 200 = 300 000 ISK. The difference is 600 000 ISK If I can finish the mission faster - let's say 5 minutes faster, this is 1 666 667 ISK per hour more (if we take for granted that a mission runner makes 20 mil per hour). Simple math - I make 1 million more per hour with the new setup. Even if some torpedoes are destroyed on their way to the target I will still be on profit as a whole. So? Buff or not?
ChiShen Fox-Force-Five Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:18:00 - [212] Please at least boost the stats of the Torp Batteries on POS's 45km range 24 sec ROF more expl radius and less expl velocity. That thing won't hit for ****.
Incantare Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:23:00 - [213] Originally by: TradeUnion first This is a big buff to the Raven versatility. Don't whine about the regular torpedoes, think about the new versatility of the t2 siege launchers - you can choose between short range, lots of damage and long range, high speed with still very good damage. I think this is a buff. Debating wether it is a nerf or a buff doesn't make sense because it's both really. A buff to RoF and a nerf to range and explosion radius. I imagine the conversation at CCP went like this: Dev 1 : "We need to nerf Caldari's PvE ability, it isn't fair towards the other races." Dev 2 "Ok, but the Raven isn't all that great in PvP, we need to buff something, how about more damage for more range?" Dev 1: "Then we'll have to nerf their explosion radius so if they want that damage they have to give up tank or have someone else paint for them. We can't have the Raven be competitive." Dev 2: "Sounds good."
Klame	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:44:00 - [214] Yes I think there is no point in debating about "nerf or not". The main problem in pvp and advantage in pve of the caldari ship was they had a great range of fire with lower dps than with turrets weapon. Now a raven pilot can choose beteween long range engagement with cruise missile and low range-high DPS with torpedoes. That's the same philosophy with other weapons and I'm glad to see that CCP realise caldari where a little left behind in classical PVP situation (due to they useless huge range and lower DPS). won't be able to warp out before the torpedoes reach him because you'll have to be very closer now.
Sky Marshal Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:54:00 - [215] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 14/10/2007 20:54:56 I see less interest to PVP in a Raven Torp with this nerf than the situation before, same if before, I never used Raven Torp. This is bad, doctor ?
thisiswrong	Posted - 2007.10.14 20:57:00 - [216] Originally by: TradeUnion first mission runner makes 20 mil per hour LOL!
Mad Axe Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:29:00 - [217] This will also bring the Scorp closer to the Dominix/Apoc/Typhoon becouse now it can finaly bring some damage, especialy since you can fit a TP on without a problem. This is what Caldari need, a t1 battleship that can do difrent things!
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:34:00 - [218] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ogul Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:23:23 Edited by: Ogul on 13/10/2007 23:21:30 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ogul In that case you could fit a 5 slot shield tank and a painter but I wouldn't expect this setup to perform well in the vast majority of scenarios. And this is different from the maelstrom how? Last time I checked the maelstrom was a turret ship (again 400m sig for its guns) that didn't need target painters. And its bonus is like a built-in shield boost amp (in effect: an additional mid slot). Last I checked fall-off doesnt mean free damage, maelstrom with 3 falloff rigs is doing much less dps than the raven with 3 velocity rigs at 45km, not to mention the raven can just switch to javelin and still do 800DPS. A maelstrom in a tier 3, and a raven is a tier 2 battleship. And yet the maelstrom can't come ahead. Minmatars take the stick again.
Incantare Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:42:00 - [219] Edited by: Incantare on 14/10/2007 21:46:04 Originally by: Vanessa Vale A maelstrom in a tier 3, and a raven is a tier 2 battleship. And yet the maelstrom can't come ahead. Minmatars take the stick again. Maelstrom has the best battleship tank in the game. It does instant damage as well. If you think the Raven is a better PvP ship than the Mael you are delusional.
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:49:00 - [220] Originally by: Incantare Originally by: Vanessa Vale Last I checked fall-off doesnt mean free damage, maelstrom with 3 falloff rigs is doing much less dps than the raven with 3 velocity rigs at 45km, not to mention the raven can just switch to javelin and still do 800DPS. A maelstrom in a tier 3, and a raven is a tier 2 battleship. And yet the maelstrom can't come ahead. Minmatars take the stick again. Maelstrom has the best battleship tank in the game. It does instant damage as well. If you think the Raven is a better PvP ship than the Mael you are delusional. Care to read what I wrote and address it instead of just rambling?
Mini Puce	Posted - 2007.10.14 21:55:00 - [221] Anyway caldari ships sucks for PVP, except crow and falcon. No one cares about that torp changes.
Incantare Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:02:00 - [222] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Care to read what I wrote and address it instead of just rambling? I just did, but since you don't get it I'll spell it out. The Maelstrom gets a RoF bonus and a tanking bonus and 100 m3 drone bay. The Raven gets a RoF bonus and a velocity bonus (range). The Maelstrom tanks far better, the Maelstrom does more damage up close. The Raven does more damage at medium range, which incidentally isn't all that useful due to disruptor range. The Maelstrom does more damage at sniper ranges due to flight time. They're different ships, with different strengths. What did you expect that just because the Mael is tier 3 it should outdo the Raven at all ranges? You have no basis to complain.
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:38:00 - [223] Originally by: Incantare Edited by: Incantare on 14/10/2007 21:46:04 Originally by: Vanessa Vale A maelstrom in a tier 3, and a raven is a tier 2 battleship. And yet the maelstrom can't come ahead. Minmatars take the stick again. Maelstrom has the best battleship tank in the game. It does instant damage as well. If you think the Raven is a better PvP ship than the Mael you are delusional. Comparing Raven and Mael, completely different tiers, is like comparing the cyclone to the drake. 1400mm T2 arties miss. 800mm T2 AC miss. Cruise and Torps will always hit if within range. They do crap damage vs fast small stuff -wow, so do L pulse, blasters and AC's due to tracking. Raven has problems fitting 6 siege II and uberness -try fitting Tempest with full 1400 II's (You fit mwd, RCU, and have almost nothing for tank). Torp raven can still fit a shield tank. Raven won't be uber vs pos, how many pulse geddons/apocs/abaddons, blaster hyperions/megathrons, and 800mm Tempests/Maelstroms do you see shooting POS? None. They use long range weapons -use cruise missiles. THUKKER -Be Paranoid
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:45:00 - [224] Quote: Cruise and Torps will always hit if within range. No, they don't. Why do people post this over and over again?
Incantare Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:46:00 - [225] Edited by: Incantare on 14/10/2007 22:47:00 Originally by: Futher Bezluden Comparing Raven and Mael, completely different tiers, is like comparing the cyclone to the drake. 1400mm T2 arties miss. 800mm T2 AC miss. Cruise and Torps will always hit if within range. They do crap damage vs fast small stuff -wow, so do L pulse, blasters and AC's due to tracking. Raven has problems fitting 6 siege II and uberness -try fitting Tempest with full 1400 II's (You fit mwd, RCU, and have almost nothing for tank). Torp raven can still fit a shield tank. Raven won't be uber vs pos, how many pulse geddons/apocs/abaddons, blaster hyperions/megathrons, and 800mm Tempests/Maelstroms do you see shooting POS? None. They use long range weapons -use cruise missiles. I'm well aware of the diffrences between guns and missiles. Also, I'm not the one who brought up the Mael/Raven comparison. Do you really think the Maelstrom is "Minmatar getting the stick" because it doesn't outdamage the Raven at every range? I don't.
Incantare Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:48:00 - [226] Edited by: Incantare on 14/10/2007 22:49:32 Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: Cruise and Torps will always hit if within range. No, they don't. Why do people post this over and over again? Because hitting for 0.0 damage is awesome!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:55:00 - [227] Remove and redesign Caldari to be honest. Swap all missiles to guns and make missiles extra powerful but a secondary weapon. Change all missile bonuses to gun bonuses. Scorpion - 5 gun hard points, 1 missile hard points Raven - 6 gun hard points, 3 missile hard points Rokh - 8 gun hard points, 1 missile hard points --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
SexehGallente Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.14 22:56:00 - [228] Edited by: SexehGallente on 14/10/2007 22:56:32 Yea, so make it say "Your light/heavy/siege/cruise launcher has missed XXXX person". Or "Your light/heavy/siege/cruise launcher barely scratches XXXX doing 4.9 damage". SO we never always hit !!
Calimor Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.15 01:01:00 - [229] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Remove and redesign Caldari to be honest. Swap all missiles to guns and make missiles extra powerful but a secondary weapon. Change all missile bonuses to gun bonuses. Scorpion - 5 gun hard points, 1 missile hard points Raven - 6 gun hard points, 3 missile hard points Rokh - 8 gun hard points, 1 missile hard points They're not gonna bother doing such a massive redesign. I for one would be happy if they took away this nerf. No one was ***ing about torpedos before, except if by ***ing you mean "complaining about how useless t2s are". Nerfing t1s is really sad.
Elmicker Black Sea Industries Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.15 01:11:00 - [230] I don't get why people see this as a nerf. Torps now finally have a use outside of afking lvl 4s in motsu.
SexehGallente Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.15 01:20:00 - [231] Edited by: SexehGallente on 15/10/2007 01:22:30 Originally by: Elmicker I don't get why people see this as a nerf. Torps now finally have a use outside of afking lvl 4s in motsu. You need 2 painters to get nearly full damage on a phoon, 1 painter for nearly full damage on a mega. It's a nerf to mission runners, for a very slim chance it might be somewhat decent in small gang pvp...
Mush Morton Caldari Wolf Echelon Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.10.15 01:27:00 - [232] I'm perfectly content to trade range for damage. Even though I feel 30km is a bit too short, I can live with it. Increasing the explosion radius of torps is simply unacceptable however, and will really nerf the ability of the raven to balance its offensive and defensive capabilities. A target painter is simply not a viable option, given the tight constraints already placed on the Raven's med slots for anything approaching a decent tank; and asking a buddy to tag along in a mission and paint things is just silly. CCP could have a bloody riot on its hands if they actually go through with the torp change as it's currently listed. For the love of everything that is good, decent, and Caldari, please do not increase the explosion radius of our torpedoes. ----------------- Molon Labe!
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:19:00 - [233] Originally by: SexehGallente You need 2 painters to get nearly full damage on a phoon, 1 painter for nearly full damage on a mega. Utter bull**. One t2 painter puts a mega into 550 sig(544 with sig focusing 4), which means you will hit for full damage. As for phoons, the current torp with its explosion radius of 400 doesnt do full damage either, with a painter the new torp will do the same damage as the current one does to the phoon. Quote:** It's a nerf to mission runners, for a very slim chance it might be somewhat decent in small gang pvp... Javelin torps.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:20:00 - [234] Originally by: Mush Morton A target painter is simply not a viable option, given the tight constraints already placed on the Raven's med slots for anything approaching a decent tank; and asking a buddy to tag along in a mission and paint things is just silly. CCP could have a bloody riot on its hands if they actually go through with the torp change as it's currently listed. For the love of everything that is good, decent, and Caldari, please do not increase the explosion radius of our torpedoes. Target painting drones.
Zolian	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:31:00 - [235] So we have to give up damage (drones) and a lot of range for maybe a slight increase in damage. That doesn't sound like a good deal to me. I'll stick to javs thanks, the new t1 torps sound fairly gimped.
Mush Morton Caldari Wolf Echelon Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:32:00 - [236] I don't really see that as a solution if you consider the relatively small drone bay Caldari ships are forced to endure. If we use our drone bay for target painting drones, the Raven will be left without the ability to defend itself against much smaller targets (i.e. frigates and cruisers in missions). Currently, a ratting Raven can use 5 Vespas for defense against small targets. Requiring us to surrender our drone space for target painting drones removes the last paltry line of defense against smaller threats, and could hardly be viewed as an adequate compromise. ----------------- Molon Labe!
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:37:00 - [237] few questions do people even use torps outside of 20km in pvp on tq now? (i can only think of shooting pos/cap ships) and does anyone fly a solo pvp raven now? (if so dont they ahve to fit mwd/scram/web/cap booster/tank?) and fitting 3 polycarbons to a raven to get crusier like agility, how is that having to have rigs to do its job? to me that sounds like giving it some edge. and woah using long range weapons (cruise) to mission thats like using rail guns instead of blasters. the big complainers are mostly mission runners/ratters I'm willing to bet
Zolian	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:42:00 - [238] I'm a PvPer. I couldn't care less about this nerfing some mission runners income as cruise is still a very valid option. What I'm having trouble seeing is how this will help the Raven in close range engagements when you have to fit several painters (or give up your drones but they don't paint as effectively) and gimp your tank. Or rely on someone else to do it but well... Ravens are already gang ships, why make them even more reliant on others? I don't like that one bit.
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.10.15 03:43:00 - [239] Originally by: Mush Morton I don't really see that as a solution if you consider the relatively small drone bay Caldari ships are forced to endure. If we use our drone bay for target painting drones, the Raven will be left without the ability to defend itself against much smaller targets (i.e. frigates and cruisers in missions). Currently, a ratting Raven can use 5 Vespas for defense against small targets. Requiring us to surrender our drone space for target painting drones removes the last paltry line of defense against smaller threats, and could hardly be viewed as an adequate compromise. Unless "Drone Bandwidth" pans out, granting more drone space. Then it becomes a matter of resource management, it deal with different situations. _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
Dao2SKP Shillelagh Corp.	Posted - 2007.10.15 04:12:00 - [240] A good chance imo, but not one that should be taken too far :/ 30km or so for torps is going far ;p Least that's what I think.... Maybe 35-40k base
Molly Neuro	Posted - 2007.10.15 07:34:00 - [241] Originally by: Dezzereth This is a major nerf to the use of the Raven in PVE, especially at some missions where you need to deal lots of damage at higher mid range (Vengeance, and a few others where the NPC BSs stay at around 50km range). And it won't make the Raven more (or less) good for PVP, the major issue being the explosion radius/velocity thing combined with the other attributes. Other ships rarely use Torps as I see it. Raw DPS numbers say nothing, absolutely nothing, especially in this case. All in all I would plea CCP to strongly reconsider this nerf (yes it is one). But as I see it, no matter how unliked these changes are, they will go through anyways. So better save your breath and enjoy the last days the useful Torp. So fit cruise. I've ran level 4's in both torp and cruise fits - similar skills in both - cnr and navy launchers / ballistics, there's very little practical difference in times. Torps are a bit faster in some but the difference isn't that great, a few minutes in every hour.
Ararius EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.10.15 08:19:00 - [242] Well I want a low/mid slot mod that increases flightspeed/time and - sig radius ;D I mean come on why must turret users get all teh <3 Im ugly, just look at my face!
Dezzereth Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.15 10:43:00 - [243] Originally by: Molly Neuro Originally by: Dezzereth This is a major nerf to the use of the Raven in PVE, especially at some missions where you need to deal lots of damage at higher mid range (Vengeance, and a few others where the NPC BSs stay at around 50km range). And it won't make the Raven more (or less) good for PVP, the major issue being the explosion radius/velocity thing combined with the other attributes. Other ships rarely use Torps as I see it. Raw DPS numbers say nothing, absolutely nothing, especially in this case. All in all I would plea CCP to strongly reconsider this nerf (yes it is one). But as I see it, no matter how unliked these changes are, they will go through anyways. So better save your breath and enjoy the last days the useful Torp. So fit cruise. I've ran level 4's in both torp and cruise fits - similar skills in both - cnr and navy launchers / ballistics, there's very little practical difference in times. Torps are a bit faster in some but the difference isn't that great, a few minutes in every hour. 1.) As I stated some NPCs are almost impossible to kill or at least the take considerably longer (eg the boss in the Guristas Vengeance mission). Also I once started a drone mission and gave up with cruises and refitted to torps, because the battleship NPCs would take so much longer to kill (I even had to reload, just to kill one) 2.) I am a Torp lover. They are big, mean, and they make a lot nicer boom (ie explosion) than cruise. 3.) You are right in that, if these changes to torps make it to TQ, cruise will be the only viable ammo for mission runners. But I see it as a sad thing, since it takes away from the diversity of Raven fittings for missions. I for myself loved the good old discussion if torps or cruise were better for missions. Those threads were always entertaining to watch. Guess in future I have to do without those. Less diversity is bad, imo. Also this change will affect 0.0 ratters a lot less than mission runners. When warping to a belt you have the option to choose your distance the your "victims" (to a certain degree), but with missions you are stuck with whatever distance you get dished out, and usually that is between 50 to 80km.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.10.15 11:19:00 - [244] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 15/10/2007 11:20:21 Back in the day when my skills were crappy, I used to run lvl 4 missions with my torps hitting at about 37k away, I sacked some tank to fit an AB, and fit javelin on those mish where turrets were 80k away. Nowadays, I run mish and wonder how the hell I'm hitting 90k away with T1 where the next-closest counterpart in heavy assault missiles (with my skills) struggles to hit at 20k, where rockets are at 10k. They going to give Torps a boost hey? Awesome, I can run mish a helluva lot faster now :) Thanks CCP! Oh,, other people can't run missions when they're only hitting at half the range? Pshaw,, learn to play the bloody game. EDIT: Oh yeah, so whats wrong with pairing up, one guy with torps for the BS, other with Cruise? Meh,,, damn sheep. Improve Market Competition!
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.10.15 11:54:00 - [245] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: d026 3 x polycarbon rig and the raven turns like a cruiser and is still able to field a actteptable tank + mwd. as always leave the tackling to the ceptors:9 im not a big fan of ships having to have rigs to do its job, imo rigs are there to give ships a little edge not to be able to do what it was intended to do Try flying an abaddon without rigs. 8 Tachies on mine with all skills maxed uses more cap than an XL shield booster.
Freaky Reaky	Posted - 2007.10.15 12:01:00 - [246] CCP needs to learn - if it ain't broke dont fix it. Why dont they work on this instead.... http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/knownissues.asp
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.15 12:15:00 - [247] Originally by: twit brent Try flying an abaddon without rigs. 8 Tachies on mine with all skills maxed uses more cap than an XL shield booster. Fit Mega Beams instead? Try fitting another launcher that can shoot torps. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Raneru Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.10.15 12:22:00 - [248] Originally by: Ararius Well I want a low/mid slot mod that increases flightspeed/time and - sig radius ;D I mean come on why must turret users get all teh <3 You can have them if we can have modules that reduce said attributes
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.15 12:51:00 - [249] Originally by: thisiswrong Originally by: TradeUnion first mission runner makes 20 mil per hour LOL! Don know whyyou loling. When I run missions with a MAELSTROM then salvage with vigil, not even a raven, I make almost 30 mil per hour. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.15 13:04:00 - [250] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: twit brent Try flying an abaddon without rigs. 8 Tachies on mine with all skills maxed uses more cap than an XL shield booster. Fit Mega Beams instead? Try fitting another launcher that can shoot torps. Megabeams use about 5% less cap.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.15 13:07:00 - [251] Originally by: Molly Neuro So fit cruise. I've ran level 4's in both torp and cruise fits - similar skills in both - cnr and navy launchers / ballistics, there's very little practical difference in times. Torps are a bit faster in some but the difference isn't that great, a few minutes in every hour. In most missions it is true, but in BS heavy missions like pirate invasion the speed difference is actually a lot higher. Somewhere around 25% actually. Granted, there is not many of those after latest round of 'rebalancing' where Recon 1 of 3 and few other similar missions got a lot easier. It depends on setup ofc and skills. Have to agree tho, for all those people who yell 'bloody murder for raven PvE' fitting cruise is always option. Also as pointed out over and over again before javelin torps do quite good. Assuming they wont get nerfed to oblivion before changes go live on TQ. Fitting one painter in Raven PvE setup is very possible without faction gadgets. I use regular T2 tank, don't need to warp out from any level 4 mission and use one painter in both Cruise missile and Torpedo setups. That is with CNR btw whats somewhat harder to fit than regular Raven.
F90OEX	Posted - 2007.10.15 13:27:00 - [252] Originally by: Gypsio III Quote: Cruise and Torps will always hit if within range. No, they don't. Why do people post this over and over again? B/c some people in this thread think they know everything then it comes to torps, but yet probably don't have the skill or never used them. Botton line last thing the pvp torp raven needs to be is 20km from the action, all the ppl I saw using TPs and firing torps on SISI pop like paper. I'm all for change but with torps this change is heading in the wrong direction.
MNU	Posted - 2007.10.15 15:04:00 - [253] Just a question - I guess currently Javelin torps cost 600 ISK each because itÆs not really popular ammunition type? I believe, after the torps changes will be finally implemented, the price will go much higher unless CCP have in mind to influence it via NPC traders. Not sure about how game mechanic making NPC traders adjusting their prices, but definitely would like to understand how itÆs working and what to expect. If the price really can go much higher, as a only few hours per day mission runner type unless will feel bored and move to PVP û I would keep myself out of training torps to level 5 and than use the time for other skills and focus on cruise missiles and all other missile skills that can maximize cruise missiles efficiency. Sorry, if I misunderstand something.
Drider Deluxe Caldari Navy Raiders Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:36:00 - [254] this is a joke! can i get my x many million sp put into gunarry instead? or will you ********s shelf the nerf bat!
Shakuul Caldari O RLY corp YTMND.	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:51:00 - [255] Does this mean ravens will be useful in pvp?
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.15 21:52:00 - [256] Originally by: MNU Just a question - I guess currently Javelin torps cost 600 ISK each because itÆs not really popular ammunition type? I believe, after the torps changes will be finally implemented, the price will go much higher unless CCP have in mind to influence it via NPC traders. Not sure about how game mechanic making NPC traders adjusting their prices, but definitely would like to understand how itÆs working and what to expect. If the price really can go much higher, as a only few hours per day mission runner type unless will feel bored and move to PVP û I would keep myself out of training torps to level 5 and than use the time for other skills and focus on cruise missiles and all other missile skills that can maximize cruise missiles efficiency. Sorry, if I misunderstand something. Javelin prices are at rock bottom, its barely profitable to make them. A LOT of people with this ammo bpo arent even making any because its not worth the effort. Should the prices increase those bpo holders will once again produce the ammo and lower prices again, in addition there is a hard cap on how expensive it can be due to invention.
Lisento Slaven Amarr BAD ATTITUDES	Posted - 2007.10.15 22:11:00 - [257] So an explosion radius increase means torpedo's are only good against battleships correct? And even then you don't do full damage without target painting support with Torpedo's. And since torp boats will be close range you will need webs. So webs + TP to do full damage to battleships and "some" damage to smaller ships. Where as turret ships only require webs to hold their target still. And if the transversal is low enough you do full damage, to all sizes. Right? --- Put in space whales!
F90OEX	Posted - 2007.10.15 22:27:00 - [258] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: MNU Just a question - I guess currently Javelin torps cost 600 ISK each because itÆs not really popular ammunition type? I believe, after the torps changes will be finally implemented, the price will go much higher unless CCP have in mind to influence it via NPC traders. Not sure about how game mechanic making NPC traders adjusting their prices, but definitely would like to understand how itÆs working and what to expect. If the price really can go much higher, as a only few hours per day mission runner type unless will feel bored and move to PVP û I would keep myself out of training torps to level 5 and than use the time for other skills and focus on cruise missiles and all other missile skills that can maximize cruise missiles efficiency. Sorry, if I misunderstand something. Javelin prices are at rock bottom, its barely profitable to make them. A LOT of people with this ammo bpo arent even making any because its not worth the Seems like people have got the same impression as myself regarding this.effort. Should the prices increase those bpo holders will once again produce the ammo and lower prices again, in addition there is a hard cap on how expensive it can be due to invention. Looks like people are dumping of there Estamel's Modified Siege launchers. Also I bought 45000 x Inferno jav Torps today of the market for 220 each. And Siege launchers II are down in price also, looking at a few markets. Seems like people have got the same impression as myself regarding this "adjustment"
major lulz11	Posted - 2007.10.15 22:43:00 - [259] Edited by: major lulz11 on 15/10/2007 22:45:21 Edited by: major lulz11 on 15/10/2007 22:43:41 yup this is a very poor nerf to raven users. Im not too sure but i think some of the mission runners you see in caldari space would rather play a game other then eve than switch to cruise missiles. myself for example, 4 accounts with cruisemissile lvl 1 and torpedo spec lvl 4 As many people have stated, it is a great damage buff. but Torpedos are equal to Artillery NOT blasters. and to force a pvp raven to get within that range brings webber and afterburner requirements into a already very poor pvp setup. What we have here is the last different race loosing its individuality now that torpedos have been altered to be a clone of rail/blaster arty/auto caldari can use blasters and rails, and we all know how many people use HAM's A final note, The people writing how this game works may not have considered everyone else sees it differently that is Rocket/Light missile Ham/Heavymissile Cruise MISSLE/TORPEDO not the other way around.
Constantinee Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.15 23:12:00 - [260] why does ccp hate torps so much? -------------------- FRICK
Soto ShinDo Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.10.15 23:20:00 - [261] Edited by: Soto ShinDo on 15/10/2007 23:22:04 Originally by: major lulz11 Im not too sure but i think some of the mission runners you see in caldari space would rather play a game other then eve than switch to cruise missiles. Can I have their stuff? Originally by: major lulz11 myself for example, 4 accounts with cruisemissile lvl 1 and torpedo spec lvl 4 As many people have stated, it is a great damage buff. but Torpedos are equal to Artillery NOT blasters. What utter crap - ROFL. Blaster = Torpedo (short range, big damage), Cruise = Artie (long range, small damage). Originally by: major lulz11 and to force a pvp raven to get within that range brings webber and afterburner requirements into a already very poor pvp setup. What we have here is the last different race loosing its individuality now that torpedos have been altered to be a clone of rail/blaster arty/auto caldari can use blasters and rails, and we all know how many people use HAM's A final note, The people writing how this game works may not have considered everyone else sees it differently that is Rocket/Light missile Ham/Heavymissile Cruise MISSLE/TORPEDO not the other way around. You can see things whichever way you want. Doesn't mean you see things correctly . There are two types of missiles - guided (Standard, Heavy, Cruise) and unguided (Rockets, HAM, Torpedoes). Was about time torpedoes got in-line concerning range and damage. BTW, your name really fits. There were a lot of lulz in your post
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.16 00:43:00 - [262] Edited by: d026 on 16/10/2007 00:43:27 Originally by: major lulz11 Edited by: major lulz11 on 15/10/2007 22:45:21 Edited by: major lulz11 on 15/10/2007 22:43:41 yup this is a very poor nerf to raven users. Im not too sure but i think some of the mission runners you see in caldari space would rather play a game other then eve than switch to cruise missiles. myself for example, 4 accounts with cruisemissile lvl 1 and torpedo spec lvl 4 As many people have stated, it is a great damage buff. but Torpedos are equal to Artillery NOT blasters. and to force a pvp raven to get within that range brings webber and afterburner requirements into a already very poor pvp setup. What we have here is the last different race loosing its individuality now that torpedos have been altered to be a clone of rail/blaster arty/auto caldari can use blasters and rails, and we all know how many people use HAM's A final note, The people writing how this game works may not have considered everyone else sees it differently that is Rocket/Light missile Ham/Heavymissile Cruise MISSLE/TORPEDO not the other way around. its quit simple: rocket -> HAM -> torps = unguided standart -> heavy -> cruise = guided on th eother hand you are right.. in the missile description cruise missiles are refered as Extra heavy assault missiles:)
IamBen Caldari Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.16 00:47:00 - [263] all the mission runners are crying but for pvp it means caldari will actually be useful
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.16 01:02:00 - [264] Originally by: IamBen all the mission runners are crying but for pvp it means caldari will actually be useful how eactely are we going to be usefull? all the ravens real problems remain unchanged..
Lisento Slaven Amarr BAD ATTITUDES	Posted - 2007.10.16 01:03:00 - [265] Originally by: IamBen all the mission runners are crying but for pvp it means caldari will actually be useful If the explosion radius is increased to 530 on torpedo's then I don't see how using them against anything other than a battleship will be effective. And considering how few battleships there are in EVE compared to other ships, you'd be better off using cruise unless you know well before hand that a hostile is coming in a battleship and have time to switch ship setups. So reduced damage due to sig radius vs explosion radius...reduced damage due to explosion velocity vs ship velocity...reduced range to be more in line with rockets/hams...increased rate of fire to attempt to compensate for other damage penalties. What kind of damage increase do you get using t1 ammo (non faction, let's say kinetic) vs a Brutix with no target painter...with 1 painter...with 2 painters? --- Put in space whales!
ChiShen Fox-Force-Five Blood Raiders Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.16 01:16:00 - [266] Originally by: ChiShen Please at least boost the stats of the Torp Batteries on POS's 45km range 24 sec ROF more expl radius and less expl velocity. That thing won't hit for ****. Yeah what i said...
Sinistro	Posted - 2007.10.16 06:24:00 - [267] We all talk about raven and the change on torps but maybe the plan behind it is the Golem. Raven has problems to make any decent fitting with 6 t2 sieges and the Golem has 4 missile points and a med slot more so I wait and see what comes out of the box and not starting to worry to much before we even know what the final changes are.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.16 09:06:00 - [268] Originally by: Sinistro We all talk about raven and the change on torps but maybe the plan behind it is the Golem. Raven has problems to make any decent fitting with 6 t2 sieges and the Golem has 4 missile points and a med slot more so I wait and see what comes out of the box and not starting to worry to much before we even know what the final changes are. I would rather not have a ship that needs the skills of a half a dread with a price tag beyond 1 bil be the requirement for running lvl 4 missions... --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Lisento Slaven Amarr BAD ATTITUDES	Posted - 2007.10.16 12:16:00 - [269] Originally by: Ogul Originally by: Sinistro We all talk about raven and the change on torps but maybe the plan behind it is the Golem. Raven has problems to make any decent fitting with 6 t2 sieges and the Golem has 4 missile points and a med slot more so I wait and see what comes out of the box and not starting to worry to much before we even know what the final changes are. I would rather not have a ship that needs the skills of a half a dread with a price tag beyond 1 bil be the requirement for running lvl 4 missions... You can run level 4's with cruise missiles instead of torpedo's right now in EVE you know. --- Put in space whales!
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2007.10.16 12:25:00 - [270] As long as I can have happy faces on my torps I will be ok... really .. bwehehehehe... All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Major Stallion Four Rings	Posted - 2007.10.16 12:38:00 - [271] the more I read this thread, the more im thinking to myself "am i the ONLY one who rats, missions, and pvp's in a raven with CRUISE missiles? Cruise missiles are far better than torpedoes for dps. Torps will still be used for heavy hitting on structures and cap ships, but iv you are pvping with torps and not fighting a cap, you are doing something seriously wrong. ________________________________ High Sec PvP Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
Lisento Slaven Amarr BAD ATTITUDES	Posted - 2007.10.16 12:48:00 - [272] Originally by: Major Stallion the more I read this thread, the more im thinking to myself "am i the ONLY one who rats, missions, and pvp's in a raven with CRUISE missiles? Cruise missiles are far better than torpedoes for dps. Torps will still be used for heavy hitting on structures and cap ships, but iv you are pvping with torps and not fighting a cap, you are doing something seriously wrong. I do everything with cruise missiles on my raven. Rat from 130km above or below belts in 0.0 and missions and if I doooo PVP it's with cruise as well. New apocalypse! Torpedo rate of fire bonus + target painting bonus! --- Put in space whales!
Marcus Insanus	Posted - 2007.10.16 12:54:00 - [273] Love it.. Love it.. Love it. finally i can use one ship of my own race not looking at the raven pilots with envy. I Also fly the Raven, lvl 4 in it, and use Torps, Spec. 4. And Cruise missiles, base lvl 4. I don't use cruise cause i came for the raven on porpose for the ISK making, but it's a HUGE diference between this ship and the rest. There are ships that can kill BSs quicker, but in an all around, he Raven is the best for Rat&mission. But it's Cruise missiles do it almost as good, if not as good, because if you have to kill Cruisers to, then the time will be almost the same. now for the change. Tested a Phoon, and finally i can use my boat with the mix of ACs and Torps, not having the impression of doing something terribly wrong. Torps start hitting seriously at 10 kliks. ACs spitting ammo at full speed. AWESOME. No, not as fast as a raven on the long range, but since I loot and salvage, there is not that main diference. I have to test it on missions now. Hope some improvement is to be made on other Races to, because there are some big issues in the Mega, and the Drone Usage has BIG disadvantages in low sec and 0.0. Everyone knows that don't you? For PVP, well, everyone agrees that maybe now we'll start using them in PVP, since they were long forgotten, and many times adapted to something far from there main goal. Those Torps can really give a big punch now, some problems with cargo space, but what the hell, i was from the time that a minmatar had to carry the double in ammo space that they do now. :) Fly safe.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.16 12:56:00 - [274] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: Major Stallion the more I read this thread, the more im thinking to myself "am i the ONLY one who rats, missions, and pvp's in a raven with CRUISE missiles? Cruise missiles are far better than torpedoes for dps. Torps will still be used for heavy hitting on structures and cap ships, but iv you are pvping with torps and not fighting a cap, you are doing something seriously wrong. I do everything with cruise missiles on my raven. Rat from 130km above or below belts in 0.0 and missions and if I doooo PVP it's with cruise as well. New apocalypse! Torpedo rate of fire bonus + target painting bonus! im allready crosstraining amarr.. i would so approve this!:=)
Kayna Eelai	Posted - 2007.10.16 13:39:00 - [275] as missionrunner carebear i'd like to see some "mixed highslot modules"... in same mission/pocket/spawn i can get frigattes, BCs, HACs, BS... some come very close fast, others stay far, etc etc etc. and I have to face em all with the same guns, or kill one type, dock&refit, kill next type. and not every1 is good with drones either. so, i'd like some PVE oriented highslots that, lets say for 25% of your cap usage can be switched from AC to ARTI and CRUISE LAUNCH to SIEGE LAUNCH with some other drawbacks maybe to not get abused in pvp. something like the new dampeners are suposed to be: depending on a "switch" they do one thing or another.
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Lucky Hydra Corp SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.16 14:01:00 - [276] I don't see what needed fixing on Torpedos. Was anyone complaining?
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.16 14:03:00 - [277] Originally by: Marcus Insanus Hope some improvement is to be made on other Races to, because there are some big issues in the Mega, and the Drone Usage has BIG disadvantages in low sec and 0.0. Everyone knows that don't you? Enough talk of torps now, what issues are you talking about? --------------------------- Vanilla Crazy Cake!
Vladimir Ilych Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.10.16 21:05:00 - [278] Originally by: Khamal Jolstien I don't see what needed fixing on Torpedos. Was anyone complaining? They seemed fine to me. Oh well it is just another change to adapt to. Makes some difference to my PvE phoon but not that much.
Mark Foley Roid Vandals Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.16 21:06:00 - [279] Originally by: Myra2007 Edited by: Myra2007 on 13/10/2007 06:25:46 Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated If this is true its just ********. Torps do NOT need to be nerfed. T2 Torps are already useless, now normal Torps will be useless as well? Do you actually understand what -25% ROF means? Fast-fireing useless missiles !
Lex Causae Zealot Research Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.18 12:31:00 - [280] Think about mission runners!! They need range. Takes ages to shoot down BSs with cruise missiles...
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.18 12:37:00 - [281] Originally by: Lex Causae Think about mission runners!! They need range. Takes ages to shoot down BSs with cruise missiles... Train for command ships, or another battleship, or pray the Golem gets a velocity/flight time bonus on top of the Raven's velocity one... ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.18 12:39:00 - [282] Originally by: Lex Causae Think about mission runners!! They need range. Takes ages to shoot down BSs with cruise missiles... they earn to much allready. nice nerf to lvl 4's!
Crazy Yuri Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.25 03:27:00 - [283] Any update on this Zulupark? Originally by: CCP Zulupark So yeah, I'm guessing you guys saw the changes then :) We just started messing around with this yesterday, and these changes should in fact not have been made public so soon preferably, as we're not done balancing them. But you get the basic concept: shorter range, more damage. Please reserve judgment on this until we've finalized (or at least improved) our design on torpedos.
Balcura	Posted - 2007.10.27 00:39:00 - [284] Edited by: Balcura on 27/10/2007 00:41:05 I understand the desire to bring the Torps in line with the HAM and rocket line of of thinking, but there are a few issues. When you fit rockets on a ship you know it's going to be close range. Rocket launchers take less fitting requirements to allow to fit a stronger tank (just like blasters vs rails or beams vs pulses). As soon as you jump into HAM's you all of a sudden notice a slight difference between CPU and grid requirements of heavy missiles, std assault missiles and heavy assault missiles (std assaults can't be used with bonuses on the drake any more). If you follow the rocket line of thinking you'd guess: std assaults = least cpu, least grid HAM (rocket equivelent) = Med cpu, med grid Heavy launchers = most cpu, most grid This IS NOT the way it was done making it so you need a double bonused ship or you don't fit HAM's as it's a huge gimp on your tank (unlike using blasters over rails). Then you jump up to cruises and torps, if they really wanted to bring torps in line with BLASTERS (the closest counterpart) then you'd need to look at what it takes to fit blasters and torps. So if you really want to look at blasters vs torps then look at the Cruise (railgun) and Torp (blaster) fitting requirements and you'll notice a HUGE issue. Blasters are easier to fit then rails of the same level neutron vs 425mm or ion vs 350mm. The biggest issue with the way torps and HAM's are is not in the ranges themselves, but what it takes to fit them vs the alternitive. If you had the 425mm fitting requirements for neutrons and the neutron requirements for 425mm guns every pilot would be yelling as it would be a huge issue. CCP please look at the fitting requirements and compare systems before you go around blindly swinging. This argument don't even approch the issue with exp rad and full dam to BS's or speed and agility to use "short range" weapons. All of these issues need to be looked at in order to balance the weapons systems in the game. I have no issue with reduced flight times, ranges or speed, but you do need to actually look at what a weapon system "should" be used for, does it do it's job and what role it should have in the game.
Sarah Moonshine MEPS Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.27 07:23:00 - [285] Not to mention caldari ships are slower, heavier, and not that suited for close-up and personal; even though the 25% rof is tempting, I'll keep my regular torps any day, thank you. Plus, regarding some other posts: 1 - While the cruise is similar to arties and rails both in low dps and big range aspect, torps have more to do with those when it comes to fitting issues AND salvo damage; 2 - I can't spare mid-slots of shield-tanking ships for target painters, and microwarpdrives; 3 - While the range for every weapon system doubles as its size go up, torps do not (ooof, they have even less range!) That being because torps are a different system altogether. Caldari are the new Amarr.
AnKahn Caldari Dark Star LTD Atrocitas	Posted - 2007.10.27 07:58:00 - [286] Up close and personal = PvP in EvE. More DPS = dead ship faster. Dead ship = less DPS to tank if you're primaried. Its the tank noone thinks about. The DPS tank. The flip side is FC sees torp explosions are causing lag. Primaries the Ravens (because now its actually worth it to kill the Raven for reasons other than killboard points). Oh well.
Luthien Dawn	Posted - 2007.10.27 08:40:00 - [287] A very welcome change to torps. Good work CCP.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.27 09:00:00 - [288] I love how all the whiners are comparing torps to blasters when they most closely resemble autocannons. Blasters use cap, blasters have 3km optimal, torps are nothing like blasters. If you compare torps with autocannons then the new torp is really much better against large targets(like battleships and BCs). The only advantage is autocannons have better fitting if you downgrade(way less dps at range) and can potentially hit smaller faster targets.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.27 09:26:00 - [289] Can i get the opinion of some sensible ratters (not the moaning kind) on whether you and isk farmers will use torps or cruise for 0.0 ratting. I LOVE to hunt ravens in a frigate or HAC and im kinda nervous that most NPCers may become impervious to solo attacks. Also if torps are used, will the increased ROF but decreased explosion velocity mean more damage to small targets or less? (i.e. AB frigates, nanohacs) Answers appreciated, thanks
10of12	Posted - 2007.10.27 10:56:00 - [290] Edited by: 10of12 on 27/10/2007 10:58:57 Originally by: Major Stallion Torps will still be used for heavy hitting on structures and cap ships, but iv you are pvping with torps and not fighting a cap, you are doing something seriously wrong. When used correctly torps do a lot more damage then cruises. You do need a TP for anything below BS (and also some BS's). For PvP you will need to be at close range (so small gang warfare). Cruises are more versatile, but for damage-dealing torps are better. Originally by: umop 3pisdn Can i get the opinion of some sensible ratters (not the moaning kind) on whether you and isk farmers will use torps or cruise for 0.0 ratting. I LOVE to hunt ravens in a frigate or HAC and im kinda nervous that most NPCers may become impervious to solo attacks. Also if torps are used, will the increased ROF but decreased explosion velocity mean more damage to small targets or less? (i.e. AB frigates, nanohacs) Answers appreciated, thanks I will most probably be using torps. When i'm ratting in 0.0 i want to kill the BS's as fast as possible. Frigs are taking care of by my drones, others are either killed by drones or target painted and killed by torps. The range doesn't really matter as i always warp in at 0. I usually also have a webber fitted to be able to defend against player nanoships/frigs. Because cruises are more versatile you will also see a lot of cruise-ravens though. I think it will get mixed with a bit more cruise Ravens.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:12:00 - [291] Originally by: Gamesguy ....Not to mention t2 torps were unchanged, which means you can still hit 150km with javelin torps, only now you will do 700 dps. Is this definitely correct? [Balance] The Caldari problem.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:14:00 - [292] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Gamesguy ....Not to mention t2 torps were unchanged, which means you can still hit 150km with javelin torps, only now you will do 700 dps. Is this definitely correct? No TII torps got range nerf to.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:19:00 - [293] So what sort of range are we looking at with javelin now? [Balance] The Caldari problem.
shupaco yaloo	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:37:00 - [294] Originally by: welsh wizard So what sort of range are we looking at with javelin now? 200m and 15k dps
pershphanie Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.10.27 12:27:00 - [295] Edited by: pershphanie on 27/10/2007 12:29:52 Originally by: Incantare Debating wether it is a nerf or a buff doesn't make sense because it's both really. A buff to RoF and a nerf to range and explosion radius. I imagine the conversation at CCP went like this: Dev 1 : "We need to nerf Caldari's semi-afk npc farming ability, it isn't fair to anyone." Dev 2 "Ok, but the Raven isn't all that great in PvP, we need to buff something, how about more damage for less range?" Dev 1: "Then we'll have to nerf their explosion radius so if they want that damage they have to give up tank or have someone else paint for them. We can't have the Raven be a win button." Dev 2: "Sounds good." Fixed for truth. mission runners having to pay attention while making isk? boohooo. Have to make the choice between more damage and better tank in pvp like everyone else? boohooo. Still a 4mill skillpoint caldari pilot can do pve more efficiently and safer than a 50mill skill point amarr pilot. Fly an apoc for a while, then come back and cry about caldari being nerfed. caldari pilots - time to feel the rath of zulupark's "creative improvements" ------>PҼſϚի<------
Balcura	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:16:00 - [296] Actually I do have an amarr mission runner with an APOC and only 13mil skill pts. the tank is a lit more sustainable and it dosn't take 50mil skill pts to be able to do it. The complaint is not about tank vs gank, but the fact that unlike any other weapon system the "high damage / close range" option TAKES MORE grid and cpu to fit on caldari missile boats. This is UNLIKE any other weapon system in the game. Rails vs blasters Arties vs autocannons beams vs pulses or Std launchers vs rockets (cool) heavy launchers vs HAM's (hea wait a sec) cruises vs torps (but not I need to get close and have no grid or cpu to fit a tank) I know how hard a mega is to fit with a tank and blasters, but try fitting one with rails and a tank (not gona happen). The case is not the gank or tank option but more of the why does this work so differently then any other system. ALSO if you want to compair to autocannons - insta dam, selectable dam types and 4x critical hit along with 400mm sig rad (means that they hit BS's for full dam oh wait, thats all guns on a successful hit... totally different dynamic). Torps also selectable dam, good DPS, low range but on BS targets never do full damage unless modified by another module and if used on anything smaller is more or less useless as with a speed and sig rad combo they take little to no damage.
Crazy Yuri Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.02 07:41:00 - [297] lets not forget about the torp range nerf.
Demje	Posted - 2007.11.03 05:12:00 - [298] Originally by: Balcura Actually I do have an amarr mission runner with an APOC and only 13mil skill pts. the tank is a lit more sustainable and it dosn't take 50mil skill pts to be able to do it. The complaint is not about tank vs gank, but the fact that unlike any other weapon system the "high damage / close range" option TAKES MORE grid and cpu to fit on caldari missile boats. This is UNLIKE any other weapon system in the game. Rails vs blasters Arties vs autocannons beams vs pulses or Std launchers vs rockets (cool) heavy launchers vs HAM's (hea wait a sec) cruises vs torps (but not I need to get close and have no grid or cpu to fit a tank) I know how hard a mega is to fit with a tank and blasters, but try fitting one with rails and a tank (not gona happen). The case is not the gank or tank option but more of the why does this work so differently then any other system. ALSO if you want to compair to autocannons - insta dam, selectable dam types and 4x critical hit along with 400mm sig rad (means that they hit BS's for full dam oh wait, thats all guns on a successful hit... totally different dynamic). Torps also selectable dam, good DPS, low range but on BS targets never do full damage unless modified by another module and if used on anything smaller is more or less useless as with a speed and sig rad combo they take little to no damage. you seem to be under the impression that a long range ship should also tank. weak damage + unsustainable tank = lose. try damage mods if you use long range weaponry.
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.11.03 06:41:00 - [299] The idea of a short range but more damage dealing Torp is rather silly IMO for Caldari. Maybe it is ok for Minmatar Ships here and there but for the Caldari it is a big mistake. The Reason? Simply as a few other suggest the main ship of choice for this would be the Raven and as we know the Raven, like every other Caldari Ship save 3, is as Slow as Possible, Manuevers like a Freight Train, and has crapola for a Power Grid. So what? What that means essentailly is that it cannot keep ANYTHING at a "Desired" range because it cannot move fast enough unless it is nano'ed, I Stabbed, and fitted with a MWD. Then it essentailly becomes a Minmatar ship except that it will still be dealing less damage while being easy as cake to blast out of the stars. Shield tanking is already a major weakness of Caldari (You all know it is crap for PvP) so taking up even more space for a Target Painter, Webber, and MWD is not going to help things in the least. As for the legend that Caldari are so much better in PvE than every one else, pffft. A well fitted Domi can out perform any Caldari ship in PvE and hardly has to do anything but send out drones and rep. Also, while Matari ships require a bit more skill to fly (player not SP) they can take on Missions just as well as their Caldari Counterparts (and it is less likely to induce narcolepsy). As a beautiful example, my Corp mate in his Suped up Drake felt invincible and able to take down anything until he runs into some Gisti BC's that Shield Rep. Suddenly his missiles cannot keep their shields down (he has more missile turrets and missile skills than I have gun turrets and gun skills mind you) and his passive shield tank while impressive fails him. I go at them in my Hurricane and blow them up just fine (takes a bit of pounding but they die for me) and my speed keeps my armor tank holding strong. So just because Missiles and a good high resist high HP shield Tank sounds like an Easy button and seems like maybe it makes Caldari super at PvE I really do not see them being any more able to get the job done than anyone else, especailly not the Gallente. As for PvP, well heh, they have a few good ships and a couple good uses, but mostly you know you would rather see something else on your side and the Caldari on the enemy team . +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...! O.o
BIlloreilly	Posted - 2007.11.03 06:50:00 - [300] Originally by: Shar'Tuk TheHated If this is true its just ******. Torps do NOT need to be nerfed. T2 Torps are already useless, now normal Torps will be useless as well? Quit firing them at nanos "Save the tree!** Wipe your bunghole with an owl!" The left makes no damn sense.
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Lucky Hydra Corp SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 07:06:00 - [301] Originally by: pershphanie Edited by: pershphanie on 27/10/2007 12:29:52 Originally by: Incantare Debating wether it is a nerf or a buff doesn't make sense because it's both really. A buff to RoF and a nerf to range and explosion radius. I imagine the conversation at CCP went like this: Dev 1 : "We need to nerf Caldari's semi-afk npc farming ability, it isn't fair to anyone." Dev 2 "Ok, but the Raven isn't all that great in PvP, we need to buff something, how about more damage for less range?" Dev 1: "Then we'll have to nerf their explosion radius so if they want that damage they have to give up tank or have someone else paint for them. We can't have the Raven be a win button." Dev 2: "Sounds good." Fixed for truth. mission runners having to pay attention while making isk? boohooo. Have to make the choice between more damage and better tank in pvp like everyone else? boohooo. Still a 4mill skillpoint caldari pilot can do pve more efficiently and safer than a 50mill skill point amarr pilot. Fly an apoc for a while, then come back and cry about caldari being nerfed. caldari pilots - time to feel the rath of zulupark's "creative improvements" Editing someone else's quote isn't a short-cut for a sound argument. If you don't like the fact that the ship that you fly's specialty isn't PVE, then cross-train Caldari.
Jerusalem Eve Amarr Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.14 06:07:00 - [302] so where is the blog about this change since you said its final. Originally by: CCP Zulupark So yeah, I'm guessing you guys saw the changes then :) We just started messing around with this yesterday, and these changes should in fact not have been made public so soon preferably, as we're not done balancing them. But you get the basic concept: shorter range, more damage. Please reserve judgment on this until we've finalized (or at least improved) our design on torpedos.

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