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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4566
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 10:45:00 -
[91] - Quote
Mnengli Noiliffe wrote:Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:Boycotting the vote just means you don't have a vote. CCP will not notice, nor care, due to the fact that only a small percentage of people vote anyway. Your opposition will be lost in a sea of apathy.
but then CCP won't be able to keep telling that CSM represents the majority of their customers. as it clearly only represents the small percentage of them instead. They'd be able to keep saying that just fine, simply based on the notion that the CSM collects input from all a majority of the customers and present it to CCP. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1009
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 10:47:00 -
[92] - Quote
met worst wrote:If you truly think as I do that the CSM selection system is flawed, pointless and no more than a 0.0 boys club, don't stand, don't select and don't vote.
If CCP can see that the CSM is wasted effort for THE MAJORITY (as it always has been), emphasise the irrelevance by treating it like the festering sore it has become.
Force the issue to a fairer method of representation. Better to have no system than a bad system.
Show your disgust. DO NOTHING.
This is the probably the worst case of dumbfounded logic I've yet to see in these forums.
No, I take that back.
This sub forum channel clearly portrays the worst case of dumbfounded logic I've yet to see in these forums. |
seany1212
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
76
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 10:48:00 -
[93] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:
But the CSM doesnt represent the majority of eve players now. They represent the people that voted for them, and have done pretty well at that IMO.
The current CSM reprisents the majority of people who care enough about this game to vote.
+1, OP needs to stop throwing his doll out of the pram and run himself |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
302
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:05:00 -
[94] - Quote
Uh, previous CSM elections were "boycotted" by something like 80%+ of the players (very low voter turnout), so you would have to do miracles to make it so much worse it would look bad. The current situation is exactly due to what you advocate; not voting.
At the moment very few people vote in CSM elections. Those null blocks that get their guys on the CSM are "profiting" from this. They understand the benefits so they tell their pilots to go and vote. Shocker result: 0.0 alliance CSM candidates get voted in.
If you can someone get the vast majority of EVE players who do not vote to vote, and vote for a candidate you prefer, you suddenly win. The untapped vote is massive.
Get a good highsec carebear CSM candidate, run a good campaign, promote issues that are not stupid (your current "don't vote" doesn't qualify) and who knows... maybe some more people care to vote and poof, CSM has highsec carebear rep. Or two. Or three. |
Valei Khurelem
231
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Posted - 2012.01.27 11:09:00 -
[95] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Can we write in Ron Paul?
IBTL
Ron Paul for CSM! :D
"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP." -á - CCP Ytterbium |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 11:41:00 -
[96] - Quote
I've read every post carefully and there is one trend forming that completely misses the mark of my OP.
Most are extolling the virtue of the CSM voting system post-process. I am extolling the lack of virtue pre-process. An entirely different matter.
By voting in such a flawed system you are accepting the flawed system and are participating in it's "rightfullness" by default whether you agree with the system or not. You are abrogating your responsibility to declare the system faulty and seek change.
A vote in a flawed system is a flawed vote - doesn't matter how you try to intepret it, wordsmith it or turn a blind eye to it.
The majority of Eve has previously proved it's indifference to the CSM process (it's in the numbers) and any attempt to downplay this is showing absolute ignorance to the glaringly obvious flaw.
Be that as it may, I along with many, many thousands of Eve players will not participate in the CSM process. If this somehow emboldens those that do into believing that it's democracy at work, well then enjoy.
God help the country you reside in if you are that ******* gullible. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4567
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 11:45:00 -
[97] - Quote
met worst wrote:By voting in such a flawed system you are accepting the flawed system and are participating in it's "rightfullness" by default whether you agree with the system or not. What's flawed about it?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 11:49:00 -
[98] - Quote
Tippia wrote:met worst wrote:By voting in such a flawed system you are accepting the flawed system and are participating in it's "rightfullness" by default whether you agree with the system or not. What's flawed about it? Read the thread first and then use 50c to call someone who gives a **** about the BS you're about to espouse.. |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
378
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 11:54:00 -
[99] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:Hahaha, yes don't vote. That will work well for you.
It's a moot point really. Take the US political system. I see Ron Paul's name plastered all over the place. I see his name 3 times out of 5 of any name of any politician currently running. And yet he routinely doesn't perform well in the polls. One can look at that and say he either doesn't perform well in the polls or that something is fundamentally flawed in the system.
One can also look at the traditional 2 party system. Here in the US we have our choice, in the end, of either corporate candidate number 1 or corporate candidate number 2. Both candidates are funded by exactly the same people with minor variance. The only difference is who gets more funding from corporate America. Usually, funding is determined by who has a better chance of winning. In this case, does it matter if one votes? We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4567
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 11:54:00 -
[100] - Quote
met worst wrote:Read the thread first and then use 50c to call someone who gives a **** about the BS you're about to espouse.. So there's nothing flawed about the system, then?
You just keep saying that it is, but you never explain how.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
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met worst
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:06:00 -
[101] - Quote
Tippia wrote:met worst wrote:Read the thread first and then use 50c to call someone who gives a **** about the BS you're about to espouse.. So there's nothing flawed about the system, then? You just keep saying that it is, but you never explain how. Tippia. It's late, I'm going to bed.
While I am gone, write a thesis, in 5000 words or less, without misquoting and contextually dissecting every post, and explain why the voter turnout is so small.
And in your answer, explain why this is not an obvious flaw in the system.
I'll do my best to digest and respond with a hot coffee and a rested mind in oh, about 8 hours.
G'night. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4569
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:08:00 -
[102] - Quote
met worst wrote:Tippia. It's late, I'm going to bed.
While I am gone, write a thesis, in 5000 words or less, without misquoting and contextually dissecting every post, and explain why the voter turnout is so small.
And in your answer, explain why this is not an obvious flaw in the system. How about, instead, you explain what the flaw is since you're the one claiming that such a flaw exists?
Onus probandi and all that. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
baltec1
499
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:27:00 -
[103] - Quote
met worst wrote: Tippia. It's late, I'm going to bed.
While I am gone, write a thesis, in 5000 words or less, without misquoting and contextually dissecting every post, and explain why the voter turnout is so small.
And in your answer, explain why this is not an obvious flaw in the system.
I'll do my best to digest and respond with a hot coffee and a rested mind in oh, about 8 hours.
G'night.
The people who dont vote dont care enough to vote and thus their opinion does not matter.
A bit less than 5000 but what else can you say? |
Ganagati
Perkone Caldari State
50
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:31:00 -
[104] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:met worst wrote: Tippia. It's late, I'm going to bed.
While I am gone, write a thesis, in 5000 words or less, without misquoting and contextually dissecting every post, and explain why the voter turnout is so small.
And in your answer, explain why this is not an obvious flaw in the system.
I'll do my best to digest and respond with a hot coffee and a rested mind in oh, about 8 hours.
G'night.
The people who dont vote dont care enough to vote and thus their opinion does not matter. A bit less than 5000 but what else can you say?
Or they don't come to forums as much?
I'll tell you this- the 2 or 3 years I was in 0.0 I lived on forums. Now that I'm in highsec, I really don't find a need to come here as often, except when I'm bored or feeling argumentative.
/shrug
*EDIT- maybe I was on forums so much in 0.0 cause I was bored senseless, and now that I'm in highsec I have stuff to do so I don't feel the need to be on here as much. >_> Now that I think about it, that's likely the case* |
baltec1
499
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:35:00 -
[105] - Quote
Ganagati wrote: Or they don't come to forums as much?
I'll tell you this- the 2 or 3 years I was in 0.0 I lived on forums. Now that I'm in highsec, I really don't find a need to come here as often, except when I'm bored or feeling argumentative.
/shrug
*EDIT- maybe I was on forums so much in 0.0 cause I was bored senseless, and now that I'm in highsec I have stuff to do so I don't feel the need to be on here as much. >_> Now that I think about it, that's likely the case*
This would be a good point if it wasnt for the fact that CCP advertises the CSM elections upon log in, in the news you see in log in and it is debated in every main hub in empire as well as eve radio. |
Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
276
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:46:00 -
[106] - Quote
met worst wrote:I've read every post carefully and there is one trend forming that completely misses the mark of my OP.
Most are extolling the virtue of the CSM voting system post-process. I am extolling the lack of virtue pre-process. An entirely different matter.
By voting in such a flawed system you are accepting the flawed system and are participating in it's "rightfullness" by default whether you agree with the system or not. You are abrogating your responsibility to declare the system faulty and seek change.
A vote in a flawed system is a flawed vote - doesn't matter how you try to intepret it, wordsmith it or turn a blind eye to it.
The majority of Eve has previously proved it's indifference to the CSM process (it's in the numbers) and any attempt to downplay this is showing absolute ignorance to the glaringly obvious flaw.
Be that as it may, I along with many, many thousands of Eve players will not participate in the CSM process. If this somehow emboldens those that do into believing that it's democracy at work, well then enjoy.
God help the country you reside in if you are that ******* gullible.
Sounds exactly like the US election system...
Any election that is not compolsury(sp lazy) will be beget with apathy.
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
2669
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:50:00 -
[107] - Quote
met worst wrote:If you truly think as I do that the CSM selection system is flawed, pointless and no more than a 0.0 boys club, don't stand, don't select and don't vote.
If CCP can see that the CSM is wasted effort for THE MAJORITY (as it always has been), emphasise the irrelevance by treating it like the festering sore it has become.
Force the issue to a fairer method of representation. Better to have no system than a bad system.
Show your disgust. DO NOTHING.
So your solution to the situation where lots of 0.0 people voted and not many hi sec people voted is to encourage even fewer hi-sec people to vote?
Obvious goon alt is obvious.... Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Ravenstain
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 12:59:00 -
[108] - Quote
I must say the that on some level I do agree with the OP about the CSM voting system being flawed as it really represents only a small part of the players. Actually, flawed isnt right. Imperfect maybe, would be closer to the mark. As someone stated previously - its not perfect, but there is nothing better for now.
That said, as the situation stands now not voting will only show that you dont care about the CSM, and with that I mean that you dont see anything wrong with what they do, or you feel that CSM doesnt have any real power and thus isnt worth fusing about. As i see it, the OP doesnt say anything about the CSM being worthless as a body, but rather than him not liking the election system and that he would like the CSM to be more representative of a larger part of the players.
Unfortunately to change the voting system you would a have to bring the issue to the attention of the CCP. Thats what CSM is there for in the first place (or thats my take on what they are for). So under the current system one would do much better to vote (or run himself) for someone with similar views on the matter. Then if the candidate get voted in he can present the issue to CCP and things might get moving. If hes not voted in... well tough. Better luck next time. I wont suggest any possible improvements to the system as there are other forum sections for that and I have seen some pretty reasonable ideas there.
met worst wrote:And if you'd had the decency to read the thread you'd see that I'm suggesting giving CCP TRUE feedback by saying the majority DGAF about the CSM by turning their back on it.
Happened last time with pisspoor voting turnout - make it even MORE obvious because they missed it.
As I mentioned above boycotting the election under this system will only show CCP that you are not worried about the CSM influencing the game in some way that you may not like. Wether that is because you think that CCP doesnt listen to CSM anyway, or that CSMs proposals will not influence your gaming experience, doesnt matter, frankly. The fact remains - it will look like you are OK with whats happening.
Anyway... not to rant on any longer, Ill just say that I will be voting in the CSM elections and Ill be voting for the candidate that represents my views most closely. |
Jafit McJafitson
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
210
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 13:00:00 -
[109] - Quote
I 100% endorse this this course of action. Another winning strategy from the Eve-O forums. |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 13:06:00 -
[110] - Quote
Do nothing and allow for the 0.0 boys club to continue. Smart move. |
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Ravenstain
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 13:11:00 -
[111] - Quote
Jafit McJafitson wrote:I 100% endorse this this course of action. Another winning strategy from the Eve-O forums. Ravenstain wrote:I must say the that on some level I do agree with the OP about the CSM voting system being flawed as it really represents only a small part of the players. Actually, flawed isnt right. Imperfect maybe, would be closer to the mark. As someone stated previously - its not perfect, but there is nothing better for now. It does represent the majority of the players who cared enough to vote. That's how democracy works. "Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill So basically to hate the current CSM election system makes you HlTLER.
Well, I didnt say anything about me hating the election system. Im quite fine with it. In an ideal world where all the players vote, I feel that system should be a little different, but as it stands now I have little or no objection.
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
305
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 01:11:00 -
[112] - Quote
The ultimate vote is customers and their money. CCP would be wise to examine where the majority their customer base resides, high sec, low sec, null, are they in alliances or not?
If the CSM does not represent the true power base of Eve, that being the paying customer, then CCP will likely give the CSM the lesser weight it deserves, and if they do not, the customers will vote with their money. |
Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
277
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 01:42:00 -
[113] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:
But the CSM doesnt represent the majority of eve players now. They represent the people that voted for them, and have done pretty well at that IMO.
The current CSM reprisents the majority of people who care enough about this game to vote.
My point exactly
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
99
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 01:48:00 -
[114] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:The ultimate vote is customers and their money. CCP would be wise to examine where the majority their customer base resides, high sec, low sec, null, are they in alliances or not?
If the CSM does not represent the true power base of Eve, that being the paying customer, then CCP will likely give the CSM the lesser weight it deserves, and if they do not, the customers will vote with their money. A pertinent fact that would not be escaping CCP's attention.
Hence my call.
Majority voting in a democracy is fine. This is neither a democratic process nor is it a majority.
BOYCOTT THE CSM. |
None ofthe Above
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 01:51:00 -
[115] - Quote
met worst wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:The ultimate vote is customers and their money. CCP would be wise to examine where the majority their customer base resides, high sec, low sec, null, are they in alliances or not?
If the CSM does not represent the true power base of Eve, that being the paying customer, then CCP will likely give the CSM the lesser weight it deserves, and if they do not, the customers will vote with their money. A pertinent fact that would not be escaping CCP's attention. Hence my call. Majority voting in a democracy is fine. This is neither a democratic process nor is it a majority. BOYCOTT THE CSM.
An effective boycott withholds something desired by the other party. Your proposal fails to do this.
I recommend a protest vote for None ofthe Above!
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above!
|
met worst
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
102
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 01:53:00 -
[116] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:met worst wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:The ultimate vote is customers and their money. CCP would be wise to examine where the majority their customer base resides, high sec, low sec, null, are they in alliances or not?
If the CSM does not represent the true power base of Eve, that being the paying customer, then CCP will likely give the CSM the lesser weight it deserves, and if they do not, the customers will vote with their money. A pertinent fact that would not be escaping CCP's attention. Hence my call. Majority voting in a democracy is fine. This is neither a democratic process nor is it a majority. BOYCOTT THE CSM. An effective boycott withholds something desired by the other party. Your proposal fails to do this. I recommend a protest vote for None ofthe Above! I'll vote for you if you guarantee not to run. |
None ofthe Above
6
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 01:54:00 -
[117] - Quote
met worst wrote: I'll vote for you if you guarantee not to run.
Wouldn't I have to run in order for you to vote for me?
Tired of the current CSM? Vote for me, I am None ofthe Above!
|
met worst
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
102
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 02:04:00 -
[118] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:met worst wrote: I'll vote for you if you guarantee not to run.
Wouldn't I have to run in order for you to vote for me? And here I was thinkin' you was a clever one |
Ireland VonVicious
Gurista Saints Assassin Confederacy
17
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 02:13:00 -
[119] - Quote
The purpose of CSM is to represent the players of eve in the continued development of the game.
As it works now it just gets one type of player/ego that even involves themselves as the rest of the community have other things in thier lives to deal with.
So as it sits it only represents a small faction of the player base and is fail.
Other option:
Have all people interested in being part of the CSM apply for it. Have a lottery for those interested. Make sure the those who get offered the positions understand the job requirements. Problem solved? Nope This will make those who are most vested in the game angry that someone who has been around six months and may not be around six months later will be too involved.
Half ass solution:
2/3's of the populace that have an account that is over one year old using lottery system and 1/3 voted in. Still not perfect but these treads can offically **** off after that. |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
102
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 02:19:00 -
[120] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:The purpose of CSM is to represent the players of eve in the continued development of the game. As it works now it just gets one type of player/ego that even involves themselves as the rest of the community have other things in thier lives to deal with. So as it sits it only represents a small faction of the player base and is fail. Other option: Have all people interested in being part of the CSM apply for it. Have a lottery for those interested. Make sure the those who get offered the positions understand the job requirements. Problem solved? Nope This will make those who are most vested in the game angry that someone who has been around six months and may not be around six months later will be too involved. Half ass solution: 2/3's the populace using lottery system and 1/3 voted in. Still not perfect but these treads can offically **** off after that. It would be much easier to use existing LIKES methods and call it a democratic process.
Then threads like this wouldn't need to be posted and we can all **** off.
Oh wait..... |
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