If you truly think as I do that the CSM selection system is flawed, pointless and no more than a 0.0 boys club, don't stand, don't select and don't vote.

If CCP can see that the CSM is wasted effort for THE MAJORITY (as it always has been), emphasise the irrelevance by treating it like the festering sore it has become.

Force the issue to a fairer method of representation. Better to have no system than a bad system.

Show your disgust. DO NOTHING.

Can we write in Ron Paul?

IBTL

Can we write in Ron Paul?

IBTL

RON PAUL!!!

Vote for Newt Gingrich and he promises to give us the moon!

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/newt-gingrich-promises-build-moon-colony-2020-u-211103078.html

Vote for Newt Gingrich and he promises to give us the moon!

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/newt-gingrich-promises-build-moon-colony-2020-u-211103078.html

Would be better to petition CCP to add "None of the Above" and "Drop CSM" to the ballot in order to really determine what the customers think. But I don't have a lot of confidence in CCP's marketing group given the wording of the customer survey's and leaked info about their "results"

The other 6.8 billion people in the world don't agree

Or care.

Bit like CSM politics really.

But let's call it a democracy all the same shall we?

Stupid question but... if we don't vote, and the null fiolks vote who they want in, don't we just lose?

No message, we just suffer for stupidity and lack of organization.

Stupid question but... if we don't vote, and the null fiolks vote who they want in, don't we just lose?


No message, we just suffer for stupidity and lack of organization.

There is a HUGE problem with boycotts, or, more specifically, those that think that any boycott can ever actually achieve what they want it to.

The very fact that one thinks that they need a forum post to attempt to garner more who think thusly is evidence that a boycott can never work.

I don't care where you are from, but a simple study of general political science will tell you that calls for a boycott only work against your own self interests.

The ONLY to effect change is to participate.

How can we get better represented in the CSM?

I know guys! Lets not vote!

so maintain the status quo...good idea OP

The other 6.8 billion people in the world don't agree

Or care.

Bit like CSM politics really.

But let's call it a democracy all the same shall we?

An even greater lack of interest (than previously) let's CCP become aware (if they aren't already) that the CSM does NOT neccessarily represent the majority and reduces the CSM's belief it is a "representative entity".

This could force a better and fairer system. CCP is quite aware that there are issues. Maybe they need to understand how bad it really is.

Keep in mind this is my view and just like any political agenda, my stance is for doing nothing to prove the point.

Not simply doing something within a flawed system, calling it a democracy and be damned the consequences.

/me googles Ron Paul and says...

"Only an American would think the rest of the world cares about American politics."

And wtf should thread be locked? You disagree or sumtin?

So you'd rather vote in (and by proxy, support) a flawed system?

Seems to be an aggregate view coming out (of the predictables) that CCP can't think for themselves. The CSM is but one small part, but, after reading the latest minutes and listening to the "campaigning", one cannot help but feel that the biased and misguided belief that the CSM will be "majority representation" under the current system may well be skewing what the majority really want.

We simply do not know (and quite possibly never will) because the current process disallows any fair selection.

I suspect you'll need something a bit more aggressive than sitting and doing nothing during the voting process to "force" change. I think that's what people are trying to tell you.

We simply do not know (and quite possibly never will) because the current process disallows any fair selection.

If you truly think as I do that the CSM selection system is flawed, pointless and no more than a 0.0 boys club, don't stand, don't select and don't vote.

If CCP can see that the CSM is wasted effort for THE MAJORITY (as it always has been), emphasise the irrelevance by treating it like the festering sore it has become.

Force the issue to a fairer method of representation. Better to have no system than a bad system.

Show your disgust. DO NOTHING.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I do disagree with how you want to do it. This helps the 0.0 bears more than it helps us. Not voting is effectively the same as voting for a 0.0 player, as 0.0 corps WILL vote for their own. So if we don't vote, we just make sure there is no competition for them.

And you don't think that CCP - as the executive body - is going to sit up and notice the lack of efficacy of the current system when no-one can be bothered voting? It MUST already be in their radar range!

Perhaps you're not seeing what I am saying - 0.0 can HAVE the CSM under the current structure. A minority group can only govern with the SUPPORT of the majority. The CSM is NOT a ruling body and can be dumped/remodelled/restructred IF and ONLY IF CCP have the pretext to do so.

NOT voting or even totally ignoring the process will disempower the CSM. Utterly. CCP will be forced to restructure. They cannot act upon anything the CSM puts forward and claim a mandate to do so with such minimal support.

TBH, supporting the current system by using it will only fuel the status quo. Which, in fairness, is fine if it should go that way. But the message about the efficacy of the CSM needs to be sent to the executive body, not the voters.

My stance and my view is to boycott and kill the current process for want of a better one.

It's a political campaign and policy in and of itself.

SUPPORT INACTION.

And you don't think that CCP - as the executive body - is going to sit up and notice the lack of efficacy of the current system when no-one can be bothered voting? It MUST already be in their radar range!

Perhaps you're not seeing what I am saying - 0.0 can HAVE the CSM under the current structure. A minority group can only govern with the SUPPORT of the majority. The CSM is NOT a ruling body and can be dumped/remodelled/restructred IF and ONLY IF CCP have the pretext to do so.

NOT voting or even totally ignoring the process will disempower the CSM. Utterly. CCP will be forced to restructure. They cannot act upon anything the CSM puts forward and claim a mandate to do so with such minimal support.

TBH, supporting the current system by using it will only fuel the status quo. Which, in fairness, is fine if it should go that way. But the message about the efficacy of the CSM needs to be sent to the executive body, not the voters.

My stance and my view is to boycott and kill the current process for want of a better one.

It's a political campaign and policy in and of itself.

SUPPORT INACTION.

And what you do not seem to fathom is that for your plan to work it would need ALL active players to make that statement.

Of course, this will not happen, so your notion as to how to effect change is null on its face.

everyone ignores the 600 pound gorilla in the room that is the reason for the nullsec ~takeover~ of the CSM

CCP put all sorts of stupid ideas past the last CSM, like "jump bridges are the primary means of force projection" and we ended up with CCP discussing removing jump bridges entirely and nerfing anomalies into the ground.

had those changes gone through as presented to the last CSM, nullsec would be dead with a few shell alliances holding space.

Admirable but you missed the point. 66% of the Eve playerbase care less.

Might actually allow some of 'em to get started and REALLY stir things up.

The fat lazy pricks sitting on their fat 0.0 asses while their minions do their bidding is what is ******* the game up. 34% don't know it yet because they don't have to think beyond the next op and/or anom.

Boycotts are dumb. They solve nothing. A better idea would be to focus your rage into finding and electing a candidate who represents what you believe in. Whining on the forums and shouting names at people who choose to play EVE in Nullsec does nothing to help your cause or your image.

If you truly think as I do that the CSM selection system is flawed, pointless and no more than a 0.0 boys club, don't stand, don't select and don't vote.

If CCP can see that the CSM is wasted effort for THE MAJORITY (as it always has been), emphasise the irrelevance by treating it like the festering sore it has become.

Force the issue to a fairer method of representation. Better to have no system than a bad system.

Show your disgust. DO NOTHING.

QFT.

I totally agree that I will not be voting for any candidate or supporting any campign whose sole purpose will be about CSM problematic members regardless of how much I agree with it to be an issue.

I will simply be looking at what the person stands for and wether or not their manifesto represents my interests. As I want to see a person capable of not being embroiled in the petty metawin politics, but someone who has a purposeful intention of making the EvE game and it's community a much better experience and wishes to focus their energies into such.

Had this been the attitude of some of the existing CSM I doubt the community would be so dissaffected with the voting process and what the CSM does. Which is a shame given CCPs intentions in the first place. But then I suppose, certain elements of this gaming community will seek to try and control you and your interests for purely their own selfish motivations who are ruining the EvE experience and thinking its "Kewl" in the process.

On a lighter more philisophical note, couple of quotations:

"Some men just want to see the world burn" - Alfred, Dark Knight

"If you must be selfish, then be wise and not narrow-minded in your selfishness. The key point lies in the sense of universal responsibility. That is the real source of strength, the real source of happiness. If we exploit everything available, such as trees, water and minerals, and if we don-¦t plan for our next generation, for the future, then we-¦re at fault, aren-¦t we? However, if we have a genuine sense of universal responsibility as our central motivation, then our relations with the environment, and with all our neighbours, will be well balanced". - his holiness the Dalai Lama

Can we write in Ron Paul?

IBTL

Just vote me in as a write in.

I promises to do sweet **** all for my entire term. Odds are pretty good I won't even be bothered to get on the Icelandic gravy train...er...plane.

I can't be bought because I'm already rich and frankly, I just don't give a **** about what any of you think. I only care about the needs of Mr. Epeen.

Actually, come to think of it, I'm pretty much like the current CSM..

As you were.

Mr Epeen

Because doing nothing, and then complaining about the resulting ****-sandwich is always better than doing something, amirite?

[/sarcasm]

hey guys, lets boycott the vote to make our voice heard!

met worst uses Summon Troll Level 20 ...

..... it is super effective

lol. Tell me honestly now Lyrrashae (and from what I can understand you've thrown your hat in the ring), do you think you will get voted in on a highsec platform. If not you, who? And even if a highseccer DOES get in, how influential do you think they can be?

Now tell me that if the total vote was decimated by disinterest, whether CCP would take a SERIOUS look at what WILL work?

As I said above, the majority can make the loudest noise by saying the least. An inaction can carry far more weight than any action if used appropriately.

Any vote or action FOR the CSM process (irrespective of the candidates or their platforms) is a vote SUPPORTING the current system. As I have said, this is fine if you ARE happy with the current structure. No problem there.

But in considering the DL quote, my motivation is by NOT exploiting the current system to gain short term satisfaction but is to look further into how the CSM *could* be structured for a much longer and more certain future for ALL players.

Looking at ways this can be done MIGHT include apathetic (read passive) protest.

Sometimes the majority can be most effective by being silent.

oh man please keep that crap coming my way

tell me more about how nullsec players are mindless drones when it's the highsec publords who are great at doing repetitive tasks mindlessly, i.e. mining, missions and incursions

that 66% of the playerbase doesn't give a **** and do not care about the game as long as they can do whatever dumb crap it is they do

SUPPORT INACTION.

Met worst is an obvious goon troll to get people to not vote, so that mittens wins the vote by a longshot.

Constituents really wanting to make a difference should vote to me,I vow to oppose anything that mittens aggrees with!!

Interesting that you would see the DL quote as neccesarily targeted at yourself.

and his complete view on the matter is:

"Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent." - DL

I fully support this. Boycott the vote.

Met worst is an obvious goon troll to get people to not vote, so that mittens wins the vote by a longshot.

Constituents really wanting to make a difference should vote to me,I vow to oppose anything that mittens aggrees with!!

What's wrong with the current CSM?

Democracy is exactly what you seem to dislike. If you don't vote you have no voice, get that 66% of hisec bears to vote for someone that supports their aims, whatever they are.

Or shut up. I lived in empire when I voted last year, I voted for low sec improvements. I hope we get them in time but just saying " we don't care" is not going to help. CCP need input and feedback.

What *specifically* is your issue with them OP?

Boycotting the vote just means you don't have a vote. CCP will not notice, nor care, due to the fact that only a small percentage of people vote anyway. Your opposition will be lost in a sea of apathy.

Bingo. Give the man a Kewpie Doll.

What's wrong with the current CSM?

met worst still avoids naming one single example of how CSM 6 has hurt the game. Interesting...

Boycotting the vote just means you don't have a vote. CCP will not notice, nor care, due to the fact that only a small percentage of people vote anyway. Your opposition will be lost in a sea of apathy.

We should get rid of the entire election. Let Mittens, chairman of the most successful CSM in history, choose the rest of the council and go from there.

Can we write in Ron Paul?

If you truly think as I do that the CSM selection system is flawed, pointless and no more than a 0.0 boys club, don't stand, don't select and don't vote.

If CCP can see that the CSM is wasted effort for THE MAJORITY (as it always has been), emphasise the irrelevance by treating it like the festering sore it has become.

Force the issue to a fairer method of representation. Better to have no system than a bad system.

Show your disgust. DO NOTHING.

but then CCP won't be able to keep telling that CSM represents the majority of their customers. as it clearly only represents the small percentage of them instead.

what is the point in CSM, then? also, when the whole CSM is from the same marginal group of players, it creates impression that CCP does not really want the remaining majority, which is not good for business.

If you truly think as I do that the CSM selection system is flawed, pointless and no more than a 0.0 boys club, don't stand, don't select and don't vote.

If CCP can see that the CSM is wasted effort for THE MAJORITY (as it always has been), emphasise the irrelevance by treating it like the festering sore it has become.

Force the issue to a fairer method of representation. Better to have no system than a bad system.

Show your disgust. DO NOTHING.

Better to have no system than a bad system.

But the CSM doesnt represent the majority of eve players now.
They represent the people that voted for them, and have done pretty well at that IMO.

but then CCP won't be able to keep telling that CSM represents the majority of their customers. as it clearly only represents the small percentage of them instead.

If you truly think as I do that the CSM selection system is flawed, pointless and no more than a 0.0 boys club, don't stand, don't select and don't vote.

If CCP can see that the CSM is wasted effort for THE MAJORITY (as it always has been), emphasise the irrelevance by treating it like the festering sore it has become.

Force the issue to a fairer method of representation. Better to have no system than a bad system.

Show your disgust. DO NOTHING.

The current CSM reprisents the majority of people who care enough about this game to vote.

Can we write in Ron Paul?

IBTL

By voting in such a flawed system you are accepting the flawed system and are participating in it's "rightfullness" by default whether you agree with the system or not.

What's flawed about it?

Hahaha, yes don't vote. That will work well for you.

Read the thread first and then use 50c to call someone who gives a **** about the BS you're about to espouse..

So there's nothing flawed about the system, then?

You just keep saying that it is, but you never explain how.

Tippia. It's late, I'm going to bed.

While I am gone, write a thesis, in 5000 words or less, without misquoting and contextually dissecting every post, and explain why the voter turnout is so small.

And in your answer, explain why this is not an obvious flaw in the system.

Tippia. It's late, I'm going to bed.

While I am gone, write a thesis, in 5000 words or less, without misquoting and contextually dissecting every post, and explain why the voter turnout is so small.

And in your answer, explain why this is not an obvious flaw in the system.

I'll do my best to digest and respond with a hot coffee and a rested mind in oh, about 8 hours.

G'night.

The people who dont vote dont care enough to vote and thus their opinion does not matter.

A bit less than 5000 but what else can you say?

Or they don't come to forums as much?

I'll tell you this- the 2 or 3 years I was in 0.0 I lived on forums. Now that I'm in highsec, I really don't find a need to come here as often, except when I'm bored or feeling argumentative.

/shrug

*EDIT- maybe I was on forums so much in 0.0 cause I was bored senseless, and now that I'm in highsec I have stuff to do so I don't feel the need to be on here as much. >_> Now that I think about it, that's likely the case*

I've read every post carefully and there is one trend forming that completely misses the mark of my OP.

Most are extolling the virtue of the CSM voting system post-process. I am extolling the lack of virtue pre-process. An entirely different matter.

By voting in such a flawed system you are accepting the flawed system and are participating in it's "rightfullness" by default whether you agree with the system or not. You are abrogating your responsibility to declare the system faulty and seek change.

A vote in a flawed system is a flawed vote - doesn't matter how you try to intepret it, wordsmith it or turn a blind eye to it.

The majority of Eve has previously proved it's indifference to the CSM process (it's in the numbers) and any attempt to downplay this is showing absolute ignorance to the glaringly obvious flaw.

Be that as it may, I along with many, many thousands of Eve players will not participate in the CSM process. If this somehow emboldens those that do into believing that it's democracy at work, well then enjoy.

God help the country you reside in if you are that ******* gullible.

If you truly think as I do that the CSM selection system is flawed, pointless and no more than a 0.0 boys club, don't stand, don't select and don't vote.

If CCP can see that the CSM is wasted effort for THE MAJORITY (as it always has been), emphasise the irrelevance by treating it like the festering sore it has become.

Force the issue to a fairer method of representation. Better to have no system than a bad system.

Show your disgust. DO NOTHING.

And if you'd had the decency to read the thread you'd see that I'm suggesting giving CCP TRUE feedback by saying the majority DGAF about the CSM by turning their back on it.

Happened last time with pisspoor voting turnout - make it even MORE obvious because they missed it.

I 100% endorse this this course of action. Another winning strategy from the Eve-O forums.




It does represent the majority of the players who cared enough to vote. That's how democracy works.

"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill

So basically to hate the current CSM election system makes you HlTLER.

The current CSM reprisents the majority of people who care enough about this game to vote.

The ultimate vote is customers and their money. CCP would be wise to examine where the majority their customer base resides, high sec, low sec, null, are they in alliances or not?

If the CSM does not represent the true power base of Eve, that being the paying customer, then CCP will likely give the CSM the lesser weight it deserves, and if they do not, the customers will vote with their money.

A pertinent fact that would not be escaping CCP's attention.

Hence my call.

Majority voting in a democracy is fine. This is neither a democratic process nor is it a majority.

BOYCOTT THE CSM.

An effective boycott withholds something desired by the other party. Your proposal fails to do this.

I recommend a protest vote for None ofthe Above!

I'll vote for you if you guarantee not to run.

Wouldn't I have to run in order for you to vote for me?

The purpose of CSM is to represent the players of eve in the continued development of the game.

As it works now it just gets one type of player/ego that even involves themselves as the rest of the community have other things in thier lives to deal with.

So as it sits it only represents a small faction of the player base and is fail.


Other option:

Have all people interested in being part of the CSM apply for it.
Have a lottery for those interested.
Make sure the those who get offered the positions understand the job requirements.
Problem solved? Nope
This will make those who are most vested in the game angry that someone who has been around six months and may not be around six months later will be too involved.


Half ass solution: 2/3's the populace using lottery system and 1/3 voted in. Still not perfect but these treads can offically **** off after that.

Not many players even use the forums. So it would still not be representative of the current player base.

You'd also end up with a lot of pandering.

It IS representative.

Only those that CARE use the forums.

I see no reason to believe such a statement.

I think that it's purely based on your peronsal situation.

Majority voting in a democracy is fine. This is neither a democratic process nor is it a majority.

Majority voting in a democracy is fine. This is neither a democratic process nor is it a majority.

What's undemocratic about it, and why are you so hung up on majorities (something that's not even relevant to democratic processes of this kind)?

Hello Tippia. You still here?

I left ages ago. Had my fun.

So you still can't think of anything that's actually wrong about the CSM or the process, then.

Ok. Good to know.

So you're not big on picking up on subtleties then?

Ok. Good to know.

Would be better to petition CCP to add "None of the Above" and "Drop CSM" to the ballot in order to really determine what the customers think.

So much this.

So you're not big on picking up on subtleties then?

Your Gǣno, I can'tGǥ isn't particularly subtle, you knowGǪ

Ahh. So you have determined that individual quotations are not so subtle. Whilst the thread itself may be. Or not.

Whatever. Just play What, When, Why, How for a few posts and I'll have a little giggle.

6 or 7 pages in is a bit late to start dissecting Tippia.

It IS representative.

Only those that CARE use the forums.

The thread isn't subtle ether GÇö that's where the GÇ£no I can'tGÇ¥ comes from, after all.
How few will depend on how soon you provide an answer to the question.
It's never too late, although after 6GÇô7 pages, one would have thought you would have, at some point, actually presented a case rather than baseless assertions.

The fact remains: you can't think of anything that's wrong with the CSM or the process, or if you can think it, you can't put it into words. If you could, you would have by now.

So only forum whores care about the game? What a completely dumb ******* statement.

Bottom line is the CSM and all things related to it, including the entire election process, needs to be more in game. Not out of game, like the forums.

Answer is no - always has been no.

There has always been the abstain button available to express your disdain for the CSM. It never got more votes than the rest of the votes combined, so I can conclude that the amount of people that want about the CSM disbanded aren't all that many.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

So we agree?

We agree that your answer is no: you can't think of anything that's wrong with the CSM or the process.

Correct. Never was.

So why are you lying in the OP?

You running for CSM?

Tips. C'mon. I'd hate to have to say you're being Master Baited.

Not really, no. You've just been exposed, as all trolls are.

The problem is that, for every troll, there are 10 idiots who think the same thing unironically, so it's pointless not to treat trolls like idiots as well because then you get two birds with one proverbial stone.

If you truly think as I do that the CSM selection system is flawed, pointless and no more than a 0.0 boys club, don't stand, don't select and don't vote.

If CCP can see that the CSM is wasted effort for THE MAJORITY (as it always has been), emphasise the irrelevance by treating it like the festering sore it has become.

Force the issue to a fairer method of representation. Better to have no system than a bad system.

Show your disgust. DO NOTHING.

Umm, that's pretty much what most of the player base did last year and as far as I can tell it didn't matter one wit.