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GeoNoSiS	Posted - 2004.03.05 12:18:00 - [1] Did they change it??? Cause just now i got spanked at a range i have always been at ----------------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world
lickspittle	Posted - 2004.03.05 12:25:00 - [2] The stargate/station sentry gun ranges were increased to 150km I believe. -- Richard CCP Programmer. Anything said above is not the official line, but my own take or opinion.
LukAsh	Posted - 2004.03.05 12:37:00 - [3] Ok, so if they are now at 150KM, did you also make NPC convoys go futher away from stations? Couse as it seems the only source of many goods are convoys, and to some extent agent missions. ___ WTB: +5 Implants.
GeoNoSiS	Posted - 2004.03.05 12:41:00 - [4] ofmg now you completely wrecked pirating.... ----------------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world
Scalor Valentis	Posted - 2004.03.05 12:58:00 - [5] Where was the warning??? I just nearly lost my BS while gankin a gate. 150km is just ridicilous.
El Paco	Posted - 2004.03.05 13:05:00 - [6] Again ccp ****s over all pirates. If you dont want any pirates in this game tell us so now so we can quit before we waste any more of our money
Zarquon Beeblebrox	Posted - 2004.03.05 13:10:00 - [7] They want it out of empire. And they want corp wars in empire. Im sure they will make more need for non pirates to move out of empire soon(tm) -- Lady Beeblebrox Teddybears movies
Tek Na'Shakk	Posted - 2004.03.05 13:11:00 - [8] Quote: The stargate/station sentry gun ranges were increased to 150km I believe. This is not fair. First the JIP-camping was removed and now this. You have removed the livelihood of all pirates, it's like removing the roids for miners.
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.03.05 13:12:00 - [9] Where is the piracy in indiscriminately ganking everything that appears at a gate? [Heterocephalus glaber]
GeoNoSiS	Posted - 2004.03.05 13:12:00 - [10] very smooth alerting us about this.... Many mates of mine are considdering cancelling the account they have ----------------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world
GeoNoSiS	Posted - 2004.03.05 13:14:00 - [11] Quote: indiscriminately ganking they get warning lights around us ----------------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world
Konstas	Posted - 2004.03.05 13:36:00 - [12] Why the hell is it not in the patch notes? Was it even on Chaos?
Martinus Crimson	Posted - 2004.03.05 13:38:00 - [13] Edited by: Martinus Crimson on 05/03/2004 13:41:39 Edited by: Martinus Crimson on 05/03/2004 13:40:14 Quote: ofmg now you completely wrecked pirating.... Noo they completely ruined pirating for the exploiting carebears. Move your ass to 0.0 space and come pirate there. But you prolly won't cause even without sentry's, you'll be ganked withing a couple of hours cause ppl can actually SHOOT BACK. So stop whining and become a real pirate. Note : This was only a flame to the pirates that find it funny to sit in empire space outside sentry range shooting ppl that pass by. There are MORE then enough pirates who actually do get the game, and work hard for thier money -----------------------
Scorpyn	Posted - 2004.03.05 13:38:00 - [14] Sentry Gun : 55km Sentry Gun II : 80km Sentry Gun III : 110km That's the ranges I know of, unless they changed it or my memory fails me.
Scorpyn	Posted - 2004.03.05 14:13:00 - [15] These threads are probably also related to this: NPC are broken Distances all screwed up.
Phantom II	Posted - 2004.03.05 14:15:00 - [16] Edited by: Phantom II on 05/03/2004 14:16:32 ffs put this kind of stuff in patch notes!!! Whats wrong with you guys? We are paying for this game. SIGH ----------------------- Want to sell: Tracking Link II Dual 425mm AutoCannon II Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II
zincol	Posted - 2004.03.05 14:22:00 - [17] Quote: Edited by: Phantom II on 05/03/2004 14:16:32 ffs put this kind of stuff in patch notes!!! Whats wrong with you guys? We are paying for this game. SIGH True. So how does a pirate,Pirate now a days? not many miners in 0.4's and pirates got most kills from gates?! w00t!
Ruffles	Posted - 2004.03.05 14:25:00 - [18] Hunt for them, don't just be sitting around gates waiting for them to come to you. Yes sadly it will most likely be miners you end up ganking in belts, but hunting is a little more active at least.
PropanElgen	Posted - 2004.03.05 14:26:00 - [19] It would seem CCP wants 0.1 - 0.4 to be carebear land. This is a total screwup. Maybe CCP just wants all the old players and pirates to sod off so they can focus on getting the $$$ from new players.. All the angels and the puny men of god looked away... Frightened to death by the evil that was born on that day!
Busko Moonwalker	Posted - 2004.03.05 14:29:00 - [20] yea a damn PIP. This should have been in notes. All changes like that. This is a big loss of kudos for CCP.
zincol	Posted - 2004.03.05 14:30:00 - [21] Edited by: zincol on 05/03/2004 14:32:18 Quote: Hunt for them, don't just be sitting around gates waiting for them to come to you. Yes sadly it will most likely be miners you end up ganking in belts, but hunting is a little more active at least. Sorry to burst ure bubble but there really isnt many players in 0.4 systems and when they see u they can just fly to a gate,station or a safe point.....even faster by loggin off and lettin the auto thing fly u to a safe spot. Think this is so pilots can fly round AFK. w00t!
Eduard	Posted - 2004.03.05 14:39:00 - [22] Guys you have certain attitude problem. You want easy kills? OK so go and play Quake, Enemy Territory, Counter Strike or Unreal Tournament. This game shouldn't allow any static camping or mass killing players. Simply it can't be this case. Pirates are reason for sentry guns and beefed concord. It wasn't like that, but honestly mass killing of people who doesn't will to try PvP (BS versus industrial) how you like it. In most cases these carebear pirates when face equal power will run. This is OK because you are pirate. A bit of Role Play not offense "You behave like Pirate scum", this is fine, but don't expect that prey will not whine. It's like in real life prey will whine ever, because it's prey. This is why law and army was build up for. Not all people in country are warriors or criminals. So don't bash masses and no one will punish you, heh. Calm down all these changes were done because you want so much blood on innocent people. May be it's time for trying a bit PvP Pirate vs Pirate. I never did saw it but your pirating nature would go that way! Lowest acts of Pirating I saw when 5 Pirates start arguing who will hunt lonely miner in system. LOL! Truly you should ask if this is what most of customers who pay monthly really want? CCP have good sense of where it would lead it if they will not calm all these teenagers down and push them away from these casual players.
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2004.03.05 14:52:00 - [23] Mining requires greater skill than Sentry Gate Camping. Pain is meant to be felt
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:01:00 - [24] When will the damn NPC's get punished for shooting at people at gates. Why does nobody complain about the NPC's? The behaviour pattern is identical to most PC pirates. Yet they are allowed to get away with it, which is odd, seeing as the pirate factions at gates are the sworn enemies of the gate owners, whereas I have a positive standing with the gate owners. It'll give people something to watch on their travels, too. .
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:09:00 - [25] Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 05/03/2004 15:12:35 not informing of change = bad, VERY bad oh boo hoo, quit being such carebears and learn how to pirate properly gate ganking is NOT pirating, its just ganking for the sake of loot, and when friendlies come to break it up, the rat usually gets away cuz its so easy to set up a camp point where they land many km away from you no matter where they warp in if you can't handle the sentries go look for people in the belts if you got a big enough team, just tank out the sentry gun fire _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:11:00 - [26] Quote: When will the damn NPC's get punished for shooting at people at gates. Why does nobody complain about the NPC's? The behaviour pattern is identical to most PC pirates. Yet they are allowed to get away with it, which is odd, seeing as the pirate factions at gates are the sworn enemies of the gate owners, whereas I have a positive standing with the gate owners. It'll give people something to watch on their travels, too. heh, i haven't seen a gate rat since castor hit, where are you flying anyways _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
Kyogen Steiner	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:11:00 - [27] Quote: Guys you have certain attitude problem. You want easy kills? OK so go and play Quake, Enemy Territory, Counter Strike or Unreal Tournament. This game shouldn't allow any static camping or mass killing players. Simply it can't be this case. Pirates are reason for sentry guns and beefed concord. It wasn't like that, but honestly mass killing of people who doesn't will to try PvP (BS versus industrial) how you like it. In most cases these carebear pirates when face equal power will run. This is OK because you are pirate. A bit of Role Play not offense "You behave like Pirate scum", this is fine, but don't expect that prey will not whine. It's like in real life prey will whine ever, because it's prey. This is why law and army was build up for. Not all people in country are warriors or criminals. So don't bash masses and no one will punish you, heh. Calm down all these changes were done because you want so much blood on innocent people. May be it's time for trying a bit PvP Pirate vs Pirate. I never did saw it but your pirating nature would go that way! Lowest acts of Pirating I saw when 5 Pirates start arguing who will hunt lonely miner in system. LOL! Truly you should ask if this is what most of customers who pay monthly really want? CCP have good sense of where it would lead it if they will not calm all these teenagers down and push them away from these casual players. Well, actually changing the range is fine , but for gods sake they have to warn people. Just imagine all the Pirates(and pirate hunters camping gates and waiting for pirates for that matter) that will get toasted by sentries tonight because of complete and utter lack of information from the EVE crew. As i said before, CCP doing changes is fine, doing critical game changes that will result in massive losses of ships with out even a topic on the forums, patch note whatever to inform the players is a slap in the face to all Eve players. Come on CCP, how many have allready petitioned for shiplosses today because of this? ------------------------------------------------ We are the bringers of hatred!
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:20:00 - [28] Congratulations! You have just finished making this 'game' a complete waste of time and effort by removing the last tiniest piece of acceptable risk. Non-empire space is completely unnecessary to get ahead if a person plays a smart game and will always be completely unnecessary to get ahead if a person plays a smart game. And you've escalated the risk in Empire space to blockades at gates being made up of numbers few people have a hope against. Good job. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
01100110011	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:29:00 - [29] Quote: The stargate/station sentry gun ranges were increased to 150km I believe. This severly sucks now all pirates have to stick to 0.0 ? .. well sure lets just make this game one big carebear festival hey i have an idea !! change all system sec stat to 1.0 all but the lower regions so the carebears can mine in peace everywhere ... think about what you are doing CCP youre making the game easier for the carebears sure ... what about the others?
Tease	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:30:00 - [30] what a bunch of crybabys.. I don't seem to have a problem finding people to fight in 0.4-0.0 space at places other than the Gates. ----------------------------------------- [2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level? [2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you [2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way
Siddy	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:34:00 - [31] Quote: Edited by: zincol on 05/03/2004 14:32:18 Quote: Hunt for them, don't just be sitting around gates waiting for them to come to you. Yes sadly it will most likely be miners you end up ganking in belts, but hunting is a little more active at least. Sorry to burst ure bubble but there really isnt many players in 0.4 systems and when they see u they can just fly to a gate,station or a safe point.....even faster by loggin off and lettin the auto thing fly u to a safe spot. Think this is so pilots can fly round AFK. w00t! yes .. i agree -------------------------------------------
Chai N'Dorr	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:35:00 - [32] This change makes no real difference to pirates... all the difference to the muggers with too much range on their hands Though it is a bad mistake of CCP to not inform the player base, was just about to get some free superconductors of a Caldari convoy. Good to know sentries have upped the stakes.
Tar om	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:37:00 - [33] Why is killing industrials with a battleship so much fun? -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net http://www.serenitymovie.com
Tease	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:38:00 - [34] Quote: Why is killing industrials with a battleship so much fun? good question.. Probably as much "fun" as killing shuttles and n00b ships with a battleship. ----------------------------------------- [2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level? [2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you [2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:49:00 - [35] Quote: Quote: Why is killing industrials with a battleship so much fun? good question.. Probably as much "fun" as killing shuttles and n00b ships with a battleship. Who said anything about it being fun? I supposed there is the sadistic "You make me do this to actually earn some isk so squeal, little piggy!" factor. But whatever you think a pirate can make wasting hours trying to hunt down a mining group (who WILL escape is anyone is paying the slightest amount of attention), they can make a prolly good 10x-20x as much at a stargate. Do you think I stop off in roid belts when travelling between the labs and the factories with my Typhoon blueprint? Megacyte and Zydrine comes from something found in roid belts. It doesn't have to return to the roid belt before use. When I was trading (prior to the entry of the sentry guns to low sec space) I don't remember finding any supply or demand points in the middle of asteroid belt VII. Do I need to send you some isk so you can afford to buy a clue? Cause it sounds like you're prolly slaving away in a roid belt thinking there's actual isk there. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
KrapYl	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:50:00 - [36] Edited by: KrapYl on 05/03/2004 15:51:55 im a 100% empire AFK gridming little care****... even I dont like reading about sentry guns doing 100km+... and quite funnyi have to find this INFO on the player forum... posted by players... gah ? CCP going from gold to n00bz ?*
Ronyo Dae'Loki	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:54:00 - [37] This is a bad thing. Perhaps they should scale the ranges? 1.0-0.6: 150km 0.5-0.3: 100km 0.2-0.1: 60km Reflect the fact that you put cheaper/older guns out in the less secure space. ------------- My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants. I <3 ( . Y . )
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:56:00 - [38] "So how does a pirate,Pirate now a days? not many miners in 0.4's and pirates got most kills from gates?!" Scorpion, 4x425, 6 tracking computers, 2 sensor boosters, 4 tech.2 damage mods, Iridium ammo. Optimal ~160 km, kills a battleship in ~2:30...
Tease	Posted - 2004.03.05 15:58:00 - [39] Quote: Do I need to send you some isk so you can afford to buy a clue? Cause it sounds like you're prolly slaving away in a roid belt thinking there's actual isk there. Sorry hun, but I have no problem making ISK and finding rare mods attacking other players at belts or killing wannabe gankers at mission/station spawn points.. I'm not sure why you're finding it so hard to believe that people can actually make money without resorting to ganking n00bs in empire space. Perhaps you need someone to show you how to play? I also don't understand why you feel the need to flame anyone who doesn't automatically agree with you and proclaim you to be the wise savior and spokesman for all PvPers that you seem to think you are. Have a cookie ----------------------------------------- [2003.12.17 06:35:20] Corwin > Orvolle is .4? Doesn't that mean that it's less than .5 ? and isn't .5 what starts the danger level? [2003.12.30 07:15:50] Corwin > Tech 2, IE expanded cargo holds I, MIning lasers 2, etc.... TL2 is being released all around you [2003.12.30 07:21:20] Corwin > tech 2 is released to players. Some players are busy researching the BPs before building stuff. Others are sitting on the BPs making copies to make money off of them that way
Adenosine	Posted - 2004.03.05 16:10:00 - [40] This fix has been coming for awhile. To all the ones that gate camped and killed ships that had no possible chance of defense you have got what was coming. You have to had to known CCP was not going to allow you to keeping killing in this manner. Like many have stated, this just means you will have to go and do what real pirates do and that is hunt for your prey. Not sit at a gate 100km out and shoot ships that are flying by. They did this to keep the masses that play this game happy. Just because a few "pirates" where going to soon start costing them player base. They would not allow this you guys should have realized this. Like one stated, setup REAL blockades take out the guns, this would be a real pirate method. Now I am all for PvP and enjoy it myself, but this has not changed my mind about playing. And just keep in mind guys when you talk of all these "carebear miner" those are the ones that are paying the bills at CCP because theres are alot more miners the pirates. Now suck it up and get out there and do some real pirateing. No more of this gutless gate camping.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.03.05 16:15:00 - [41] Quote: Quote: Do I need to send you some isk so you can afford to buy a clue? Cause it sounds like you're prolly slaving away in a roid belt thinking there's actual isk there. Sorry hun, but I have no problem making ISK and finding rare mods attacking other players at belts or killing wannabe gankers at mission/station spawn points.. I'm not sure why you're finding it so hard to believe that people can actually make money without resorting to ganking n00bs in empire space. Perhaps you need someone to show you how to play? I also don't understand why you feel the need to flame anyone who doesn't automatically agree with you and proclaim you to be the wise savior and spokesman for all PvPers that you seem to think you are. Have a cookie Sorry, 'hun'. But I've prolly made more isk travelling between Point A and Point B with the right cargo in an hour than you make in a day. Unless you luck up and get a cargo expander. Hypothetical question: You spend 2 hours chasing down 10 players in roid belts and get 3-5 rare modules to sell. Gate camper spends 1 hour at a gate and gets 6-10 rare modules to sell. Does that make you smart or foolish? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Watson	Posted - 2004.03.05 16:24:00 - [42] lol... I think we have a certain group of pirates in Yulai to thank for this. Seriously... who didn't see this coming after that incident? They should have let people know, I'll agree with that. Once again, communication is poor. But, the rules changed... ok... it's CCP's game, they can do whatever they want. Learn and adapt. Somehow I get the feeling that gate-ganking isn't really how CCP wants pirating to occur. People can still gatecamp at gates in 0.0... but in empire space I think CCP wants people to actually go hunt for their victims rather tha wait for them to arrive on a silver platter.
Adenosine	Posted - 2004.03.05 16:29:00 - [43] Farewell spoken Watson
Adenosine	Posted - 2004.03.05 16:30:00 - [44] Farewell spoken Watson
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2004.03.05 16:35:00 - [45] I know you sympathize with pirates Jash, but no one said pirating was meant to be easy, especially in Empire space. 0.1-0.4 will have higher traffic than 0.0 because there are no alliances to close off space, there are stations, bunch of newbs, many unaware people, mid grade ore and npcs for the average player. Unlike in 0.0 where everyone and their mother has instajumps or safespots already made and is watching local like a hawk. Not to mention sentries benefit pirates as much as legit players in terms of protection.. All this does, is force small time rats to actually hunt for prey amongst the belts. I believe this just equalizes things for everyone, because lets face it, legit players don't camp outside sentry range, hoping to gank pirates that pass by. Maybe this will cut down on the number of newbs who went pirate because it was so easy to do this. Experienced pirates can just as easily tank out a scorp and have one or two friends helping with cap and shields and still hold up ships. If zombie could do it in 1.0 with concord shooting at the same time, smaller teams can do it with only the sentries. Maybe it will create some more permanent blockades that pirate-hunters could go and break up because right now if you try and break it up they just go to the next system and set up in 2 minutes _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf
VinkNut	Posted - 2004.03.05 16:58:00 - [46] How the hell are you to chase down a pirate in a 0.4 system then? As soon as they have managed to warp once, they are home and free (or at least docked, or out of the system). The range on the sentry guns was absolutely FINE the way it was, neither too short to make it an easy kill, nor too long to mean that there's no chance of killing. Concord should be policing, SG's should be protecting assets - there is a distinction being drawn by CCP that no-one asked for, no-one was informed of, and no-one wants kept in the game (apart from people who really don't actually understand how the game works). Vinky/B
Teelmaster	Posted - 2004.03.05 17:00:00 - [47] All these pirates really need to stop *****ing. Ganking at gates was never intended in empire and frankly was just lame and too easy. That is why ccp change self-destruction rules (takes two minutes to self destruct) and the logging off rules (if you warp scramble them their ship won't dissapear). Go hunt for your prey, ransom their ship or blow it up for the modules. Use a team of cruisers/frigates to fast lock bs's in belts etc. Use some imagination and some tactics instead of sitting 60km and insta ganking. If you find a good target it can be VERY profitable, just ask tank ceo and watch his video.
VinkNut	Posted - 2004.03.05 17:03:00 - [48] The trouble is, that the new ranges prevent you from setting up a blockade to prevent a pirate from escaping a system - so they can basically come into a 0.4 system, attack and kill someone, then get away because you have no means of preventing them from leaving the system. The go into the neighbouring 0.5 system and start flicking "\/" signs at you, and you can't do anything about it. It works both ways.
Sally	Posted - 2004.03.05 17:05:00 - [49] Quote: Where is the piracy in indiscriminately ganking everything that appears at a gate? Where is the piracy in idiscriminately ganking everything that appears at a gate as done by Evolution trillion of times in trillions of different systems for ages. Sorry dude, get off the weed please. We don't need a reason as you don't need one as well for blowing people up. Or wait, Evolution always makes up a story on the board before shooting the **** out of the people, so it is legit. And don't ask me to provide concrete examples of Evolution camping gates in 0.4-0.1 systems, been there, seen that. Sigh. -- Stories: #1 --
Drutort	Posted - 2004.03.05 17:11:00 - [50] Quote: Quote: Edited by: Phantom II on 05/03/2004 14:16:32 ffs put this kind of stuff in patch notes!!! Whats wrong with you guys? We are paying for this game. SIGH True. So how does a pirate,Pirate now a days? not many miners in 0.4's and pirates got most kills from gates?! w00t! well here is a clue, lets see belts dont have any sentry guns last time i checked, and 0.0 sec there are no major issues there, and corp wars too. but really i wish that such changes came after that hole war/alliance system got in... these changes were not needed or at least should have been moved out a bit more and not so extrem... maybe 100km or so would have been ok but 150km? support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2004.03.05 17:22:00 - [51] i also think these changes are due to the modile scrablers etc... though we havent seen the bigger ones yet... and the small ones are useless but with those set up right im sure you could take out players out of warp and they will most likely die, so it would take a lot of time and money as well as effort to do this but it would work. anyway i think in general they did over kill on this range. ccp doesnt go for middle ground ever, so it seems and it does suck for all players but mostly pirates. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Antdung	Posted - 2004.03.05 17:27:00 - [52] I think people should stop complaining about being ganked at gates, it is another career for players the same as mining or agent missions, don;t tell people who are paying good money like yourselves how to play the game, you're not paying for them. I don;t go around telling miners how to mine.. if you can't handle the heat, don't enter lower then 0.5, unsecure space is meant to be dangerous, they may as well have changed all space to 1.0., i believe the answer to this problem is already in this forum,, the less secure the system, the shorter the gun range to represent lack of security funds.
J3tt	Posted - 2004.03.05 17:36:00 - [53] remove gun increased rng....or drastic measures may be taken by SPVD corp ----------------------------------------- Can your pod outrun a cruise missle?
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.03.05 17:42:00 - [54] Quote: I know you sympathize with pirates Jash, but no one said pirating was meant to be easy, especially in Empire space. 0.1-0.4 will have higher traffic than 0.0 because there are no alliances to close off space, there are stations, bunch of newbs, many unaware people, mid grade ore and npcs for the average player. Unlike in 0.0 where everyone and their mother has instajumps or safespots already made and is watching local like a hawk. Not to mention sentries benefit pirates as much as legit players in terms of protection.. All this does, is force small time rats to actually hunt for prey amongst the belts. I believe this just equalizes things for everyone, because lets face it, legit players don't camp outside sentry range, hoping to gank pirates that pass by. Maybe this will cut down on the number of newbs who went pirate because it was so easy to do this. Experienced pirates can just as easily tank out a scorp and have one or two friends helping with cap and shields and still hold up ships. If zombie could do it in 1.0 with concord shooting at the same time, smaller teams can do it with only the sentries. Maybe it will create some more permanent blockades that pirate-hunters could go and break up because right now if you try and break it up they just go to the next system and set up in 2 minutes It's not sympathy. It's simple numbers. 2 ships, 3 if the stars align correctly and give the perfect situation, are my limits. Beyond that, it's a waste to attempt to fight. My numbers are notably higher than most people's. Most people won't face a single person fighting unless they have 1-2 other people helping them. So you make the only means to pirate require more force than people are able to summon. 3 pirates at a gate and most people won't move until they outnumber the pirates 2 to 1. And the pirates are already there and operating. Most people can't summon those 5 other pilots to face them before the pirates leave. The game forces stupid risks for no reward. There is no reward in beating a pirate except satisfaction. To get that satisfaction you have to go through holy hell. Solutions like upping the range on the sentry guns work opposite of what needs to be done: Force the pirates to work in smaller groups that the individual or small corp is likely to be able to handle. Most people are intimidated strictly by the mere presence of a pirate. Multiple pirates just makes them certain in their upcoming doom. That is the majority of the players. The majority is not made up of people like me who will take 2 to 1 odds. The majority is not made up of people like the Blade Runners, a corp that tries to actively hunt pirates. The majority is not made up of corporations like Everlasting Vendetta or Xanadu, likely to have a few pilots nearby equipped well enough to make facing a blockade feasible. The majority of the people playing the game have the odds stacked against them from the beginning by mechanics that force the people that already intimidate them alone to work in well armed, high powered groups. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Antdung	Posted - 2004.03.05 17:46:00 - [55] I think people should stop complaining about being ganked at gates, it is another career for players the same as mining or agent missions, don;t tell people who are paying good money like yourselves how to play the game, you're not paying for them. I don;t go around telling miners how to mine.. if you can't handle the heat, don't enter lower then 0.5, unsecure space is meant to be dangerous, they may as well have changed all space to 1.0., i believe the answer to this problem is already in this forum,, the less secure the system, the shorter the gun range to represent lack of security funds.
Viqer Fell	Posted - 2004.03.05 18:21:00 - [56] Edited by: Viqer Fell on 05/03/2004 18:42:07 Sentry Guns have had their ranges at stations and Gates increased to 150kms. I must say that my considered opinion of this change is that it is an extraordinarily awful move. As one of the more prominent role playing corps in the Minmatar / Amarr struggle one of the primary aspects of our role playing was hunting down and killing Amarrians. With this change as I understand it we are now restricted to the following: 1) Corp wars. No problem here we have been at war with Pie Inc etc. for some time 2) Asteroid Belts : Again no problem here, thats where we find some of our prey anyways. 3) 0.0. Well if we wanted to role play Defenders of O-MFG or some daft named system miles from nowhere then this would be fine. But we don't. If the ranges being bandied about above are true then we are no longer allowed to chase those miners out of the belt to either the Stations nor the Gates and believe me the first thing they usually do is run for the hills. Now being honest (and I know cause I've been doing this for 8 months) it's bloody hard to find a specific race of character mining or hunting in the belts without many hours or some very good luck in 0.1-0.4 where you can rp a fight. With this change CCP have now dramatically reduced our chances of being able to engage pilots in 0.1 - 0.4 systems. I cannot stress how dismayed I am by this change. I feel that every patch that comes along is designed to ruin any chance of role play unless you wanna role play a miner or a trader. Dare to want to kill anything other than NPC's and out comes the nerf bat 1 month later. CCP wants player created events and storylines. Well the PFM has tried to do that for them. We have been in the front page news numerous times for role play reasons. Very shortly CCP we will no longer be able to play the role of minmatar patriots in the inimicable way we have and still do. And for this matter I have a real issue with being forced into 0.0 as half of the respondees seem to suggest is where PK'ers should be. All 0.0 space is claimed by one alliance or another. To live in 0.0 means I must join an alliance and hence join the wars they bring along and fight alongside the players in that alliance. We have just left CA because we didnt want to compromise any longer on our ideals and fly alongside Amarr pilots without being able to shoot em. I apologise for the length but this news has seriously upset me and tbh depressed me. I feel that I am trying to help CCP make a fantastic game whislt theyre trying their damndest to stop me doing what theyre begging everyone to do i.e. create player news in a positive manner, keeping things clean and interacting in the storyline. Way to ruin my day CCP! http://www.aoyd25.dsl.pipex.com/glowing%20copy.gif Podding the Amarr Empire one pod at a time http://www.aoyd25.dsl.pipex.com/glowing%20copy.gif Podding the Amarr Empire one pod at a time. Ok, so what the hell is this Golden Ratio?
C4w3	Posted - 2004.03.05 18:27:00 - [57] I have one idea..... Let¦s build a big electrical fence around 0.0 space were all carebears need to sign a contract where they agree to a none wining. and let concord fly around in the sim like world of super miners in S.k Battle ships. and kill all pirates. when that is done.... all can hugh and go on with their buisness. 0.0 space will only contain NPC.... and a couple frigs running btw all regions. when that is also done.. let¦s extirminate NPC fractions.. so 0,0 space becomes a good place and build pink little telletubbies hometowns. 150k Sents ROFL--> why not movable sents that follows sk pirates around space. Take this as IRONI... but in some sence THE TRUTH. "If all the heroes are standing together around a strange device and begin to taunt me, I will pull out a conventional one.
Quinn Manaan	Posted - 2004.03.05 18:27:00 - [58] What the bloody hell, J3tt? 'Or SPVD will take drastic measures'? Are you trying to threaten CCP with ganking/pirating? That is -not- how the game-design process is supposed to function. All the gate-campers have said, classically, that the gate-gun range -proved- that gate-camping was a legitimate tactic; else why didn't CCP make the gate-gun range ludicrous? Well, CCP has basically stated that gate-camping -isn't- a legitimate tactic by this act -- at least not in the present form. So -- you pirate folks either ought to adapt. Surely there are some -other- ways to pirate? Some other places, some other methods?
Demiurge Ialdaboth	Posted - 2004.03.05 18:34:00 - [59] Edited by: Demiurge Ialdaboth on 05/03/2004 18:36:14 This is a change for the better. I didn't expect I would be venturing into low security space because I kept hearing about "gate campers". Now however I can (somewhat) safely traverse into these regions without fear of being destroyed the minute I exit the gate. I can proudly say I havent died yet in this game so playing it safe pays off Edit: Minor grammar errors.
Viqer Fell	Posted - 2004.03.05 18:44:00 - [60] This isn't just about gate camping people. This is about warping in on a mining op. shooting. then not being able to chase your prey if they manage to get out of the belt cause the guns at the gate or the station will not care that you were role playing. Ok, so what the hell is this Golden Ratio?
Wraeththu	Posted - 2004.03.05 18:52:00 - [61] Edited by: Wraeththu on 05/03/2004 19:00:31 Edit: Spelling Quote: As one of the more prominent role playing corps in the Minmatar / Amarr struggle one of the primary aspects of our role playing was hunting down and killing Amarrians. With this change as I understand it we are now restricted to the following: I respect your urge to role play Viger. I enjoy RPing myself, but the long and short of it is, you're role play is involuntary and hurts people. There's a reason there are security ratings on the systems. It's for various levels of security. You could very well go fight PIE. I'm sure they'd be glad to RP with you and shoot each other. Shooting any amarrian is just griefing. Low-sec systems can't exist. Our market has proven this. The whole low-sec system is astoudingly dumb. About half of an empires systems are low-sec (it varies based on the empire). A goverment that can't protect it's trade routes lasts for about 2-3 weeks, then they usually end up in a civial war or with various naughty things done to them involving sharp and pointy objects and/or explosives. I'm not going to argue with people over and over again, there's a disconnect between two camps. Those people who say "I wish to play the game in a way that I don't force my play on others" and those who say "I wish to play the game I want, and I want to force my play on others" The second one is not condusive to a global community. You can make your own value judgements. Now, objectivness aside. I enjoy PvP. But I've still never understand why people would just grief. It doesn't do anyone any good. I read Crime & Punishment and just laugh at people sometimes. Every day I log on and see that a human has reached a new low in self worth. I don't know what's going on in most of 0.0. I have limited information in 2 regions. I think most of us will agree that the going's on in Venal, Pure Blind, Curse, Stain, (vale, etc) are what the game is about. THAT's fun. It makes you excited to log on. There are indy's to loot, combatants to avoid or attack, strategies, political intrigue, etc. Ganking people at a stargate is none of these. All it proves is you can park a BS somewhere. It's not cost effective generally. It brings nothing but anger to both the target AND the killer. It doesn't display any astounding level of skill. Now if people want to camp a gate, they'll have to tank the guns, which means they're going to have to work as a team, and they'll have to suffer the highs and lows of that. No, it's probably not going to be cost effective, but I don't see that it SHOULD be. In the real world, incentive is given through death. In Eve, death has no meaning (besides a fiscal hit), so incentive is given through fiscal sanctions. If what you're doing in Eve isn't profitable, It's likely that the designers frown upon it. Take bounty hunting for instance. People are being 'nudged' out to 0.0. This includes pirates. While I respect Jash's post methods, for being well constructed and not inflamatory, I just don't agree. I can't see any globally negative aspect of increasing sentry gun range. I _DO_ agree that the fact that guns and CONCORD gank the good guys as often as the bad is a problem, but that's not something that should be fixed by changes to guns or CONCORD, it's something that should be changed via the TEF/Criminal Flag system. My 2 ISK. -- TomB: End the speed-race. 1 propulsion mod allowed, make turrets affect ship attributes like +speed/+ab speed +agil for progressivly smaller/lighter turrets, -speed/-ab speed -agil for long-range.
BrutusX	Posted - 2004.03.05 18:54:00 - [62] Quote: remove gun increased rng....or drastic measures may be taken by SPVD corp LOL! Oh no, anything but that! Rofl, can't type anymore, having problems catching my breath i'm laughing so hard.
Wraeththu	Posted - 2004.03.05 18:57:00 - [63] Edited by: Wraeththu on 05/03/2004 18:58:19 Quote: This isn't just about gate camping people. This is about warping in on a mining op. shooting. then not being able to chase your prey if they manage to get out of the belt cause the guns at the gate or the station will not care that you were role playing. Try a warp disruptor. Even if they leave you'll probably be able to either a.) ransom their ore, or b.) blow it up as penalty for being pacifists. -- TomB: End the speed-race. 1 propulsion mod allowed, make turrets affect ship attributes like +speed/+ab speed +agil for progressivly smaller/lighter turrets, -speed/-ab speed -agil for long-range.
Amy Foxx	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:00:00 - [64] starts to take down 500m tall neon sign that said "m0o chew toy" I can finaly start to explore some out the outer systems, with out fear of getting ganked by m0o camping gates.
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:03:00 - [65] "This is a change for the better." It's not really changing anything -- the gate gankers will simply sit farther away from the gate, possibly in greater numbers to make up for the reduced firepower. In short, pointless change completely missing the actual problem. --;
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:07:00 - [66] "Even if they leave you'll probably be able to either a.) ransom their ore, or b.) blow it up as penalty for being pacifists." lol. like anyone is going to pay ransom for what they'll mine again in 15-30 minutes tops, or feel bad about such amount getting blown up...
Dirus	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:10:00 - [67] All this will accomplish is make every pirate corp tank sentries... just 2 ships needed for that... ********** Everyone deserves to die. You go first.
Krendig	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:10:00 - [68] First, I'd like to say that I disagree with a major change like this happening without warning. Even if it was a subtle news story type warning. "CONCORD, in response to escalating reports of piracy in empire space, has reported they have formed a committee to look into the issue, and devise appropriate measures. When asked about the timeline for this, the only response the spokesperson would give was 'SoonÖ'." Personally, I've never understood gate ganking-- You're usually not asking for ransom, you're not doing anything but sitting just outside the range of the gate guns, blowing up random ships going past you. Personally, I think mining would be more interesting. Gate ganking has got to be boring as hell. And the idea that the law enforcement (you know, the cops, the navy, the marshalls, etc) would never adapt to your tactics defies belief. Empire space is not, nor was it ever intended, to be lawless. Piracy has always been actively discouraged by the civilized world-- It's why the United States built a navy and formed the Marine Corps. You cannot have a trade network with piracy running out of control, and you can't have a MMO_RPG_ of galactic struggle without something resembling law and order. Most of the posts I've seen have been from pirates who are just as bad as the carebears they disdain so much: "I've got a right to play (read, kill people) with no risk!" It's a tough universe. Adapt. :) --Krendig
Wraeththu	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:22:00 - [69] Quote: lol. like anyone is going to pay ransom for what they'll mine again in 15-30 minutes tops, or feel bad about such amount getting blown up... Sorry, I was just trying to offer options. He wanted to role play, there's some groundwork. Hey, I'm a retard. What can I say. Either way, I'm not going to get into a war. People made up their minds about this change 3 months ago. Discussion is pointless. The only point of my post is to balance the negative voices. I think the 'steath-nerf' was astoundingly silly. Most of the people that would be for this change don't even know! I don't see how they can expect a discussion on something that the only people who know about it are the people who the change was implemented to counter. -- TomB: End the speed-race. 1 propulsion mod allowed, make turrets affect ship attributes like +speed/+ab speed +agil for progressivly smaller/lighter turrets, -speed/-ab speed -agil for long-range.
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:25:00 - [70] "Sorry, I was just trying to offer options. He wanted to role play, there's some groundwork." Ahh... okay, my bad there, i missed the roleplaying bit. But then it requires the other side wanting to cooperate in the rp in order to work... which means it's option really for the rp'ers, but not the 'standard' pirates. ^^;;
pooti	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:28:00 - [71] Quote: starts to take down 500m tall neon sign that said "m0o chew toy" I can finaly start to explore some out the outer systems, with out fear of getting ganked by m0o camping gates. We don't really do this very often, actually. I've destroyed a total of two ships from outside sentry range at gates (not counting people that were sitting outside range who tried to gank me). Poor change, IMO, but if that's what CCP wants, well, fine.
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:29:00 - [72] Edited by: Mon Palae on 05/03/2004 19:34:54 First off it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if you all have Zombie Corp to thank for this (at least in part). Carebears have whined long and vociferously against ganking pirates but the pirates response was always "stay in 1.0 space if you can't hack it". Along comes Zombie and destroys what? 200+ ships in 1.0...in Yulai no less...heart of carebear land. Doubtless many noobs got nailed in that stunt and doubtless some said "screw this...how am I to advance in the game if nowhere is safe?" and left EVE (perhaps not knowing after the fact that CCP decided to reimburse players). Regardless if CCP defines EVE as a PvP game at heart they must make room for noobs to get started or they will have no new playerbase and will wither away. At this point it isn't about the game as much as it is about fiscal sense. No new players, no EVE (eventually), no game...bad for everyone. Second, ganking at gates was ridiculously easy and had no real risk for the pirate. Autotargeters, sensor enhancements that could lock a pod in less than a second, 60+ km ranges...all the person had to do was press F1, F2, F3, F4 every so often. The target had what chance exactly? Either they were fast enough to escape or they were dead. That setup pretty much meant that pods, shuttles, haulers and frigates died on the spot. Cruisers might get through. Battleships might get through. What options for defense did the target have? Chances are almost certain the target cannot lock back in less than a second and use jammers. Unless the target was one of a handful of battleships equipped for long range fighting the target could almost never shoot back. If the pirate noticed a long range equipped battleship at the gate they could withhold fire and the target can't attack because then the gate guns would shoot him. Even with a faster lock on the attacker the target cannot be proactive and do something like jam or use dampers as it is an aggressive act and would get them killed by the gate gun. If a pirate hunting group mass jumped in-system to attack the pirates it was simplicity itself for the pirates to run to their own safespots long before attackers could get good range on them and use scramblers to hold them (funny how pirates complain that miners do this when they are just as likely to do the same...which isn't trash talking anyone as it really is just the smart play to do and should be expected). In short, gate camping at long range was a cheesy, simple tactic and needed to be stopped. Carebears have lost hidden belts and ninja mining. Pirates lose the gate camping tactic. Carebears keep instajumps, pirates get deployable warp scramblers (I know there aren't many of those yet but they are in-game and time will only see them proliferate). Now miners need to work harder for their ore and be more careful and take greater risks as they should. Now pirates have to actually stalk their prey as they should. The days of shooting fish in a barrel for miners and pirates are gone. More organized warfare (be it pirates hunting, corps battling it out, duels, etc.) should become more common. CCP still needs to sort problems with the decalred war stuff and alliances but hopefully it will come soon and make all that even more likely. I suppose it is natural to whine when your free-lunch has been taken away and you are told to work for it instead but in the end the result should be a BETTER game. Try and give it time before you pass judgement.
pooti	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:29:00 - [73] also, can we expect guns in belts once all the pirates move there?
GoGo Yubari	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:32:00 - [74] Though I'm definately a relatively new player, I must say I'm totally appalled by this change. Personally I thought it was cool that battleships could sit outside sentry range, spicing up things in less secure systems. Also, this totally kills of convoy hunting. Not to mention what it does to RP corps. This is just ... bad.
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:43:00 - [75] This is a bit of an aside but for those wondering how to catch pirates (or RP enemies) since they can zip through a gate I thought if you attacked someone in a system you couldn't approach a station or gate gun for 15 minutes without getting nailed. Has that changed? If it hasn't then a pirate who recently got someone in a system is stuck temporarily. Admittedly I don't initiate attacks on people so I have no firsthand experience that tis is indeed the case but I have seen pirates run from me who jumped around the system rather than go through a gate or to a station and assumed this was the reason. One other thing, pirates get help in that logging off will not save someone anymore and autodestructing their ship to keep the loot from you won't really work anymore either. I suppose thos changes can cut both ways and hurt pirates too but more often you see pirates claiming their prize was lost due to those tactics than carebears saying a pirate got away because of them (although certainly all sides have had members use those tactics).
Grizwold	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:47:00 - [76] Viquer, fix some warp disrupters, if one isn't enough, add another. If they can't warp, situation solved, they will never get to the station or gate...lol
Wraeththu	Posted - 2004.03.05 19:55:00 - [77] Quote: I thought if you attacked someone in a system you couldn't approach a station or gate gun for 15 minutes without getting nailed. Has that changed? No, but you can just warp around or hang at a safe spot for 15 minutes, so it's irrelivent. Even special ops frigates, if they can warp to a scanner item, just means people will stay in warp indefinetly. It's mostly just useless banter though. It's a deficency in the hunting system as a whole, and not a problem that just exists with guns. Being as I don't hear any mention of bounty hunting improvement in any future revisions, and it's not brought up in the CSM chat, it's a wash. -- TomB: End the speed-race. 1 propulsion mod allowed, make turrets affect ship attributes like +speed/+ab speed +agil for progressivly smaller/lighter turrets, -speed/-ab speed -agil for long-range.
bl3ach	Posted - 2004.03.05 20:08:00 - [78] All these people whinging that people kill them... That's half the point of the game! If you don't want to be killed don't go to systems under 0.5, that's what has been provided for people unable to deal with being blown up! Pandering to carebears with no valid arguments and who can't cope with being blown up is not why I started playing this game, because of this decision I feel ashamed to have recomended this game to my friends. I am outraged at this decision and have totally lost faith in CCP to effectively manage this game to the satisfaction of everyone not just those who complain that they lost their ship when they obviously shouldn't have been where they were. This decision by CCP will destroy EVE and until this decision is either revoked or revised with some inteligence there will not be any more logged in records... You've shot yourself in the foot CCP and expect people to cancel their accounts, including me if it's not changed soon
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.03.05 20:10:00 - [79] Quote: Edited by: Mon Palae on 05/03/2004 19:34:54 First off it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if you all have Zombie Corp to thank for this (at least in part). Carebears have whined long and vociferously against ganking pirates but the pirates response was always "stay in 1.0 space if you can't hack it". Along comes Zombie and destroys what? 200+ ships in 1.0...in Yulai no less...heart of carebear land. Doubtless many noobs got nailed in that stunt and doubtless some said "screw this...how am I to advance in the game if nowhere is safe?" and left EVE (perhaps not knowing after the fact that CCP decided to reimburse players). Regardless if CCP defines EVE as a PvP game at heart they must make room for noobs to get started or they will have no new playerbase and will wither away. At this point it isn't about the game as much as it is about fiscal sense. No new players, no EVE (eventually), no game...bad for everyone. No risk = an isk based level ladder so short calling it a footstool would be an exaggeration. Quote: Second, ganking at gates was ridiculously easy and had no real risk for the pirate. Autotargeters, sensor enhancements that could lock a pod in less than a second, 60+ km ranges...all the person had to do was press F1, F2, F3, F4 every so often. The target had what chance exactly? Either they were fast enough to escape or they were dead. That setup pretty much meant that pods, shuttles, haulers and frigates died on the spot. Cruisers might get through. Battleships might get through. What options for defense did the target have? Chances are almost certain the target cannot lock back in less than a second and use jammers. Unless the target was one of a handful of battleships equipped for long range fighting the target could almost never shoot back. If the pirate noticed a long range equipped battleship at the gate they could withhold fire and the target can't attack because then the gate guns would shoot him. Even with a faster lock on the attacker the target cannot be proactive and do something like jam or use dampers as it is an aggressive act and would get them killed by the gate gun. If a pirate hunting group mass jumped in-system to attack the pirates it was simplicity itself for the pirates to run to their own safespots long before attackers could get good range on them and use scramblers to hold them (funny how pirates complain that miners do this when they are just as likely to do the same...which isn't trash talking anyone as it really is just the smart play to do and should be expected). You have absolutely no idea what your talking about. Most sniping setups are stupifyingly weak skinned and completely ineffectual against a ship setup to combat them. I've tanked 2 gate ships simultaneously, without coming into any real danger and destroying one (a Tempest whose guns I flew directly into) with ease. The people sniping from range were under no risk because people chose not to provide the risk. If you actually knew anything about gate camping you'd know you're a group of pirates supporting a ship sentry tanking is at less risk than a couple people sniping from range. Because that group of people tanking the sentry guns will still have more than enough firepower to completely destroy even a battleship while doing so. Quote: In short, gate camping at long range was a cheesy, simple tactic and needed to be stopped. Carebears have lost hidden belts and ninja mining. Pirates lose the gate camping tactic. Carebears keep instajumps, pirates get deployable warp scramblers (I know there aren't many of those yet but they are in-game and time will only see them proliferate). Now miners need to work harder for their ore and be more careful and take greater risks as they should. Now pirates have to actually stalk their prey as they should. The days of shooting fish in a barrel for miners and pirates are gone. More organized warfare (be it pirates hunting, corps battling it out, duels, etc.) should become more common. CCP still needs to sort problems with the decalred war stuff and alliances but hopefully it will come soon and make all that even more likely. I suppose it is natural to whine when your free-lunch has been taken away and you are told to work for it instead but in the end the result should be a BETTER game. Try and give it time before you pass judgement. Actually I suspect your free lunch just got a carte blanche dessert cart. Your lack of knowledge in the subject at hand strongly suggests the only view you've ever had of combat are: 1) Chasing around mk ultra and jus2awesome in Anamake, comfortable in the 6+ ships GSC required before even thinking of going there 2) Being on the receiving end of an opening salvo in an industrial. 2) These forums I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Eddie Gordo	Posted - 2004.03.05 20:21:00 - [80] The fact of the matter is that we DO hunt in belts, more or less 100% of our hunts start with scouts going through the belts in fast warp scrambling cruisers with the rest of the force waiting to warp in. the problem is that the warp scramble range is only 20k & given that 80% of the time when you warp in your at least 30-50k from your target you inveriably have to chase him to a station or gate. This completly ruins the way our corp plays, and I am am feeling very bad about the whole thing. All these people complaining about fast lockon times & long gun ranges should look at the map, see that there have been some ship kills and think to themselfs "hmm, I wonder if there are some pirates there" its not especially hard fit for speed and get past. Ships such as interceptors and maybe 30-40k warp disruptors will help, but I really dont see the need for the change in sentry gun range, as they were it was easy enough to get through a blockade if you were vigilant and had the correct ship setup. Instas??
Shakz	Posted - 2004.03.05 21:07:00 - [81] Dunno if anyone has said anything yet and I dont feel like reading through the whole post cause the boards are so friggen slow right now but the mobs targeting range...at lest the higher end ones I have been killing has been bumped up a lot as well.
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.03.05 21:37:00 - [82] Edited by: Mon Palae on 05/03/2004 21:39:12 Quote: No risk = an isk based level ladder so short calling it a footstool would be an exaggeration. Some totally safe areas need to be provided. Period. Zombie proved there is no such thing in EVE as it stands. Quote: You have absolutely no idea what your talking about. Most sniping setups are stupifyingly weak skinned and completely ineffectual against a ship setup to combat them. I've tanked 2 gate ships simultaneously, without coming into any real danger and destroying one (a Tempest whose guns I flew directly into) with ease. The people sniping from range were under no risk because people chose not to provide the risk. If you actually knew anything about gate camping you'd know you're a group of pirates supporting a ship sentry tanking is at less risk than a couple people sniping from range. Because that group of people tanking the sentry guns will still have more than enough firepower to completely destroy even a battleship while doing so. Ok...if what you say is true about sentry tanked pirates being at less risk and more dangerous overall than sniping setups WHY did you NEVER (or near enough barring one or two glaring examples) see this happen? Pirates could have done that yesterday, a week ago or a month ago yet they almost never chose to do so. I confess to zero experience in gate camping having only been on the receiving end but I have been on the receiving end plenty of times. I do not need experience to see that the evidence suggets you are wrong. Or, if you are right, sniping setups were simply SO much simpler and just as effective if not moreso and as to entail as near zero work as can be managed that the tank setup just wasn't done. Further, if sniping was so inherently dangerous to the pirate why did you rarely see them ever get caught? Yes, it certainly happened as you said you did once yourself. It is also not as if many people/corps didn't try. Some peeps and corps exist for little else except to crash gates. In the final tally however they were FAR less successful at stopping pirates than pirates were at getting away and/or beating them back. Quote: Actually I suspect your free lunch just got a carte blanche dessert cart. Your lack of knowledge in the subject at hand strongly suggests the only view you've ever had of combat are: 1) Chasing around mk ultra and jus2awesome in Anamake, comfortable in the 6+ ships GSC required before even thinking of going there 2) Being on the receiving end of an opening salvo in an industrial. 2) These forums I am not going to apologize for my mates chasing one or two ships with six. Heaven help any men under your command should you find yourself in a leadership position in a war. "Tell ya what guys...let's keep it fair and not stomp on the dudes across the field...half of you stay here and the rest charge!." War is ALL about bring superior firepower and tactics to bear on your enemy. Anything less is stupidity. If our corp could muster 6 ships against one then good for our corp. Lord knows I have had 6 gate campers shoot at my shuttle before yet somehow you don't think that unusual or inappropriate. That said I think you may have our corp confused with someone else as I do not recall any corp members being near Amanake much less chasing anyone there. I was out of town for two weeks so may have missed something but I didn't hear tell of it. I know we did chase two pirates around with 5 ships not too long ago in another system but it was their two battleships vs. our one battleship and four cruisers. Just counting ships I'd say we had the advantage but not hugely so. I am not saying it was impossible to get a gate camper but it was very hard. Just as pirates say it is near impossible to nail someone in a belt because they just run so too with gate campers. If you consider catching and killing gate campers as easy then you should consider catching miners at belts as easy too. The final issue with gate campers I was trying to make is it lacked any balance. 99% of the time there was no real response anyone could make to the gate camper. Not by going at them offensively (with a chance of success existing for them) or defensively. The choice for 99% of people was to run and hope they made it. Their options were extremely limited. EVE is about balance. You see it all over in the mods and ships. One mod balances the strength of a different mod. If one thing has no balance the game is out of whack as was the case with gate campers.
Belisarius	Posted - 2004.03.05 21:52:00 - [83] Personally i hate this change. No i don't like pirating but it should be an option in the lower regions of empire space. Rather than beef up the sentry guns (a concept i hate anyway) why could they not beef up the concord patrols (or maybe use national navies if concord cannot handle the situation) ? Sorry CCP but this is an over reaction...again
Tyria Evenstar	Posted - 2004.03.05 22:01:00 - [84] This change is crap. I don't want risk-free Empire space. Hell, I don't want risk-free ANY space. We need more ways of policing ourselves, not letting some sodding uber-gate guns do the job for us. -Tyria.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.03.05 22:08:00 - [85] Edited by: Jash Illian on 05/03/2004 22:12:24 Quote: Edited by: Mon Palae on 05/03/2004 21:39:12 Quote: No risk = an isk based level ladder so short calling it a footstool would be an exaggeration. Some totally safe areas need to be provided. Period. Zombie proved there is no such thing in EVE as it stands. But what does the sentry guns range in .4-.1 have to do with Zombie Inc. in 1.0 Yulai? Absolutely Nothing 1) They were in 1.0 space 2) They weren't sniping from range 3) They were tanking the sentry guns Changing the range on the sentry guns will have no effect whatsoever on how Yulai was pulled off. Quote: Ok...if what you say is true about sentry tanked pirates being at less risk and more dangerous overall than sniping setups WHY did you NEVER (or near enough barring one or two glaring examples) see this happen? Pirates could have done that yesterday, a week ago or a month ago yet they almost never chose to do so. I confess to zero experience in gate camping having only been on the receiving end but I have been on the receiving end plenty of times. I do not need experience to see that the evidence suggets you are wrong. Or, if you are right, sniping setups were simply SO much simpler and just as effective if not moreso and as to entail as near zero work as can be managed that the tank setup just wasn't done. The answer isn't all the difficult to figure out. Tanking sentry guns takes more people. ***Cat or Tank CEO can (and have) sniped people from range alone. But tanking the sentry guns can be just as much hassle as arranging a corp mining op for a corporation the same size. Quote:** Further, if sniping was so inherently dangerous to the pirate why did you rarely see them ever get caught? Yes, it certainly happened as you said you did once yourself. It is also not as if many people/corps didn't try. Some peeps and corps exist for little else except to crash gates. In the final tally however they were FAR less successful at stopping pirates than pirates were at getting away and/or beating them back. No joke but it happens more often than people attacking a group of pirates tanking the sentry guns. That's why pirates sniping from range didn't deploy drones: People warp to-> drones. That's why pirates sniping from range aren't usually in the warp path between a celestial object and the gate: Warp to->50km from the celestial object to the stargate. And that's why most will run when a ship turns directly toward them and barrels straight at them: If that ship gets into warp scramble range, their guns will be completely ineffective and they will most likely die. Those are all lessons learned from people actually doing it to the campers. Most people are still mystified how to disrupt a sentry tanking situation without bringing twice the numbers. Which causes the same issue stated above: You try arranging a spur of the moment counter attack force consisting of twice the number of the people camping. And you might begin to understand why so few people fight the pirates under any circumstances. Quote: The final issue with gate campers I was trying to make is it lacked any balance. 99% of the time there was no real response anyone could make to the gate camper. Not by going at them offensively (with a chance of success existing for them) or defensively. The choice for 99% of people was to run and hope they made it. Their options were extremely limited. EVE is about balance. You see it all over in the mods and ships. One mod balances the strength of a different mod. If one thing has no balance the game is out of whack as was the case with gate campers. When the only devices availible to keep a person at the location are limited in range to 20km, the sentry guns themselves cause the situation to be unbalanced. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Natty Gan	Posted - 2004.03.06 03:25:00 - [86] Looks like you wanna be pirates will have to fight players equal to or close to your skill range now instead of killing unwary noobs. God get a freaking life. This in no way kill pirating.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.03.06 03:43:00 - [87] Quote: Looks like you wanna be pirates will have to fight players equal to or close to your skill range now instead of killing unwary noobs. God get a freaking life. This in no way kill pirating. Get a freaking clue. The changes guarantee that they'll almost never encounter anyone equal or close to their skill level. Since they'll be in groups in order to pirate, it'll be rare that any comparable group will be near enought to actually bother with attempting to fight them. Or do you normally fly everywhere with 4 other people? No? There. Now you got a freebie clue. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Jamze	Posted - 2004.03.06 03:44:00 - [88] Edited by: Jamze on 06/03/2004 03:46:10 Quote: Looks like you wanna be pirates will have to fight players equal to or close to your skill range now instead of killing unwary noobs. God get a freaking life. This in no way kill pirating. Yes i attack and pod 'noobs', industrials and anything else that crosses my path. By nerfing gate camping we will just resort to tanking. You had better wipe that smile of your face, before some p****d off pirate does it for you.
Natty Gan	Posted - 2004.03.06 03:48:00 - [89] Quote: Edited by: Jamze on 06/03/2004 03:46:10 Quote: Looks like you wanna be pirates will have to fight players equal to or close to your skill range now instead of killing unwary noobs. God get a freaking life. This in no way kill pirating. Yes i attack and pod 'noobs', industrials and anything else that crosses my path. By nerfing gate camping we will just resort to tanking. You had better wipe that smile of your face, before some p****d off pirate does it for you. Oh my Big strong pirate like you picking on little ole me. Guess that makes you a big man.
Urgaram Darumn	Posted - 2004.03.06 03:49:00 - [90] The New Range of SENTRY GUN are not on the PATCH NOTE ! I lost my ship for that.... My job its to attack convoy .......... now i can't, i lost all ...... Why this Indication are not on the PATCH NOTE ?? its not cool from CCP to do that ! Give me my old ship......
tekforce	Posted - 2004.03.06 05:54:00 - [91] To keep up with the changes in patches, I read the patch notes so that I can be sure and adjust my gaming accordingly. Well, I reviewed those notes, low and behold discussing nothing to do with the change of sentry gun range. This is absolutly crazy!!! Why would CCP ever make such a drastic change to the game without notification in these notes. Case in point, I lost my apoc due to chasing a mining party into the station, I was 68k from those damn things, and checked it 3 times to make sure. Opened fire, and low an behold, all of them opened up on me (even those over 100km away). With this information placed in the patch notes, I would have known this was now a dangerous act and would not have done it. I do not have a problem with the change, and actually think it makes more pirates move out to 0.0 where they belong (except for the whole harroule being part of empire, with sentries, even though it is 0.0 which means 0.0 SECURITY, dont get me started on that one). I now have a petition in due to not being properly notified of this change of range, and if it is denied chances are I will probably toss in the towel. This lack of information is absolutely ludicrous!
Baleur	Posted - 2004.03.06 06:31:00 - [92] yawn /me thinks Josh writes too much God i gotta change my sig..
McWatt	Posted - 2004.03.06 09:19:00 - [93] this game is heading the wrong direction. sad.
OPPercy	Posted - 2004.03.06 10:39:00 - [94] Jeeezez CCP what are u thinking of. Of course ppl will start the whining about this issue but the fact is that Im 10000% sure that u gonna start loosing players. Every last move u have made has bin against the pirates and that makes me angry. Why is there a 0.1 system?? its the exactly same as the 0.4 system whats the diffrens. Throw in something quick in the game that gives pirates some advance. Well the reaction is the following: CCP dont want pirates in the game! And dont start about ganking ppl at gates are not pirating thats b*******it. Being a pirate is being the scum of EVE but now we cant manage to be scum¦s anymore. This game is starting to get kind of ridicoulus. We are paying for this game and I think u should listen to the pirates also. Common 150K from sentrys u gotta be kidding. I think u need to comment this oficially so we all know WHY u did this change has their bin any problem about having guns at 60K ?? And for all of u that says we should hunt down miners instead....jeezez u got the log-of-warp-to-no-where-thing the sentrys-being-at-100000000K-range. This mean we cant kill ppl in 0.1-0.4 they are as safe areas as 0.5-1.0. /Proud member of Corp1
Qual	Posted - 2004.03.06 11:53:00 - [95] Of course CCP want pirates in the game! But they DONT want everyone to be a pirate. Pirates should be a minority made up of skilled players. Pirating should not be Joe N00b and Friends. Alas pirating have to be hard. I can liive with carebear miners, but i cant live with carebear pirates. Head of Xanadu Elite Ships Department
Ulfar	Posted - 2004.03.06 13:05:00 - [96] The changes now make it so that there will be miners and pirates that pick on miners, wow that is going to be so exciting. What happens if all the miners go into empire space. Even if there was an economy that made it worth being a trader they would be completely safe know, warp from gate to station. Can anyone say AFK.
Tar om	Posted - 2004.03.06 14:19:00 - [97] AFK!!! and it rocks... /me goes to check if his AP is still ON... -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net http://www.serenitymovie.com
Wild Rho	Posted - 2004.03.06 14:46:00 - [98] May as well make all empire space 1.0 sec now since its almost there already. And dont say there are npc becuase they are no threat to any player with even some experience. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Sabahl	Posted - 2004.03.06 15:25:00 - [99] Quote: Of course CCP want pirates in the game! But they DONT want everyone to be a pirate. Pirates should be a minority made up of skilled players. Pirating should not be Joe N00b and Friends. Alas pirating have to be hard. I can liive with carebear miners, but i cant live with carebear pirates. Actually there is no indication that CCP have put any thought towards having player pirates in the game. Their previous lack of control to prevent pirating should not be taken as a tacit agreement that pirating is good and should be in the game. In the Q&A with LekJart conducted by myself and Sara he didn't even seem to care that much about the issue (or lack thereof) of players wanting to pirate. The attitude of the lead dev, and one would assume of the whole dev team as a result, is that players do what they want to do, end of story. Remember, they are painting a picture here, creating art in a game. And you can spend your life tweaking such a masterpiece, much as Leonardo DaVinci did with the Mona Lisa. It's just a shame that boredom thresholds prevent the average human from spending a lifetime looking at one individual piece of art. When CCP realise this is a game and not a sculpture (or a game of "chess") then maybe such issues will be addressed in a sensible and timely manner.
Galk	Posted - 2004.03.06 15:27:00 - [100] Unwary. Why f--cking bother. This morning before i cleared off out, i and others were asked the question by a person carrying 250 harvester drones. It was a unwary wanting to confirm on a pick up, because they had to travel through a 0.4 system on the route. Obviously they wern't aware of the sentry gun changes. The situation now is bollox. Iv'e never liked gate camping, iv'e been vocal about it in the past, but realy what now is the f--cking point, you can just afk those 250 drones back, or anything else for the matter. It's a sh-t situation that come about because of ccp's failings in the past. It's all about player numbers imo, just a shame the tossers running the game value that above the people that stuck with the game when it realy was going to sh-t, because of there lack of experience in the genre. ------------------------ ---- Little wonder why people were, what this person was telling my friends: http://galk.50megs.com/logs/
Antdung	Posted - 2004.03.06 16:45:00 - [101] Tell u what CCP , just make all space 1.0... and while your at it... why not take guns and missiles out of the game too so we cant kill anything... what a f**king joke!!! if you want to make secure space more secure why not increase the range of the guns in 0.5 above?? stop punishing players for your inadequate programming in the Yulai incident.
Antdung	Posted - 2004.03.06 16:57:00 - [102] So when are CCP going to let us fight back these ridiculous God like sentries??? if they are making them so hard in unsecure space why not give us 'unskilled' gate camping pilots the chance to disable them?
Bruen	Posted - 2004.03.06 20:02:00 - [103] Quote: Sorry to burst ure bubble but there really isnt many players in 0.4 systems and when they see u they can just fly to a gate,station or a safe point.....even faster by loggin off and lettin the auto thing fly u to a safe spot. And thats so diferent to what pirates do when faced with a fair fight. ----------------- The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine. - J. B. S. Haldane
Fartracker	Posted - 2004.03.06 20:43:00 - [104] Bruen, using Pirates and 'Fair fight' in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Eat My Shorts!
McWatt	Posted - 2004.03.06 21:28:00 - [105] Quote: Bruen, using Pirates and 'Fair fight' in the same sentence is an oxymoron. you keep on fighting them, don t you?

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