It is natural people move on after a time but CCP isn't really covering these lost pilots with new ones.

Carebears must die and be driven from the game; miners must die and be driven from the game; industrialist must die and be driven from the game; incursion runners must die and be driven from the game; wormhole dwellers must die

One thing that has always struck me as odd is why CCP thinks making a game that encourages griefing and driving people away is a good business model.

I've started following the forums lately and I've come to a few conclusions regarding the eve community of the forums and elsewhere.

They all state their steadfast hatred against free to play and the revenue model that accompanies it.

Except, of course, that they are.

I have yet to see any proof that f2p model could have any hope of exceeding or even approaching the current subscription model in revenue amount. Where are the numbers?

Also, eve is dieing.

Not really at all and time is not on their side, more time=more competition

F2P or B2P or 50 different variations of those are the new business models and soon there wont be any games with required monthly subscription, ever.


EvE Online already make use of a store and even sell PLEX, so to be fair it should be F2P already, I know if I ever have to pay another sub I wont, for now buying plex with ISK is the only reason I am here.

EVE was still up for the year even after the dip subscriptions took.

Fair point on the business model changing in the industry, which is why I have no problem with CCP changing with the times.

My point was that even with a subscription based model it is still expanding it's player base steadily, and pointed out that this thread is essentially a thinly veiled "EVE is too mean" thread.

EVE subs are stagnant at best, this is no longer a growth title.

IThis community hates FTP revenue models yet their actions are very likely to cause the need to implement FTP.

Get your facts straight and stop your **** posting.

At this time last year EvE hit is all-time high of players on-line. I bet you that if they hadn't tried to push their FTP model on us we would have beat that mark this year. But maybe we still can since PCU numbers has been increasing since Crucible.

EVE has been growing steadily since release for almost a decade - something most game companies can only dream of. EVE is fine because of its loyal and slowly growing subscriber player base. Only Incarna and the NEX business model was able to break that trend.

If anything kan kill EvE it is FTP. Yeah, and people like you.

One thing that has always struck me as odd is why CCP thinks making a game that encourages griefing and driving people away is a good business model. Maybe they did not realize the magnitude of the issue and thought they would get sufficient subscriptions in any case. Maybe they are satisfied with the current level of subscriptions, and are simply not looking for Eve to be a multimillion player game. Or maybe they think having sufficient employees to police a "no griefing" policy would be so costly that it would not pay off despite increased subscriptions.

EVE is the only MMO to reach this age and still be growing. I'd say they are getting it right.

EVE is the only MMO to reach this age and still be growing. I'd say they are getting it right.

especially when gate camping and 10v1 odds.

They all state their steadfast hatred against free to play and the revenue model that accompanies it.

They are all elite pvp'ers and very hardcore in their own minds, especially when gate camping and 10v1 odds.

Most of them hate everyone else who don't play the game exactly as they want them to play the game.

They will flame and outright personally attack anyone who doesn't agree with them or suggest some change that they don't agree with, civil discussion is outright impossible with most of this community.

Carebears must die and be driven from the game; miners must die and be driven from the game; industrialist must die and be driven from the game; incursion runners must die and be driven from the game; wormhole dwellers must die and be driven out of their hole and also want the game changed to remove ABC because....they want to control it themselves elsewhere.

Also League of Legends which is F2P is the most played online game and their revenue is massive. Hence why DOTA 2 is most likely becoming Valves most expensive and invested project ever etc.

Apples and pears. A FTP model would not work well in CCPs single shard universe. The revenue per players is way too low in FTP games.

League of Legends has about 15 million players and they generate a revenue of 25-50 million USD. That is about $3 per year for every player. Imagine the EVE cluster with 15 million players paying $3/year and they would generate about the same revenue as the current model with 300k subs for about $150/year.

SFPT will generate about as much revenue with 15million players as EVE do now with 300k players. Do you honestly believe that EVE would benefit from such a model? Would you play EvE then?

http://www.businessinsider.com/digital-100#51-riot-games-51

Last I heard LoL had over 32 million players with more revenue than you quote.

Problem is of course if EVE can work an F2P model because of their game design with a single server but also the expenses for that kind of server.

So it might now be feasible, however, it could be something down the pipeline when too few people play the game to keep it alive for awhile longer.

Most likely they will make their next big MMO F2P or B2P or CCP and EVE will cover a certain niche? Hmm, in anyway, I appreciate this most interesting discussion that could easily just have been derailed because of the terrible OP.

It is a horrible idea for EVE where long term engagement is key to build anything in the sandbox.

Last I heard LoL had over 32 million players with more revenue than you quote.

Problem is of course if EVE can work an F2P model because of their game design with a single server but also the expenses for that kind of server.

So it might now be feasible, however, it could be something down the pipeline when too few people play the game to keep it alive for awhile longer.

Most likely they will make their next big MMO F2P or B2P or CCP and EVE will cover a certain niche? Hmm, in anyway, I appreciate this most interesting discussion that could easily just have been derailed because of the terrible OP.

Eve is already FTP for some.

FTP needs about 10-100 times more players to bring in the same profit that EvE currently does by subscription. These players don't care about forming long term social relationships because well they just play (for free) for a while and the move on to then next FOTM FTP game. It is a horrible idea for EVE where long term engagement is key to build anything in the sandbox.

Imagine how EVE would be like with millions of players that don't care much about the future and are only in it for the instant gratification fix. Do you think such game will thrive or even survive?

Those 32million players are not on an mmo. It's at best a lobby game with instanced combat arenas. Which at the max can hold 12 people playing at once in one fight. And their actions on there mean nothing to the game as a whole. They can't set prices, make anything or effect the market in anyway. It's a buy character. Fight, earn in game money or buy off cash shop and fight some more game.

my tone isn't one of accusation but just clam reflection.

EVE won't succed as "real" f2p game

Considering players are dumb enough to pay real money for ISK and purchase characters already I'd say it would do far better than most people would think.

One thing that has always struck me as odd is why CCP thinks making a game that encourages griefing and driving people away is a good business model. Maybe they did not realize the magnitude of the issue and thought they would get sufficient subscriptions in any case. Maybe they are satisfied with the current level of subscriptions, and are simply not looking for Eve to be a multimillion player game. Or maybe they think having sufficient employees to police a "no griefing" policy would be so costly that it would not pay off despite increased subscriptions.

EVE is a niche product marketed to a very small audience

I've always loved this excuse :P

Technically yes but only because it's a year older than WOW which by most metrics laughs in every other MMO's face

I've always loved this excuse :P

They are all elite pvp'ers and very hardcore in their own minds, especially when gate camping and 10v1 odds.

I've always loved this excuse :P

HTFU GO BACK TO WOW LOL LOL I DINT EVEN READ THE OPPPP

I for one like free to play. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have $15usd/month to put into a "video game".

I've always loved this excuse :P

Considering players are dumb enough to pay real money for ISK and purchase characters already I'd say it would do far better than most people would think.

I for one like free to play. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have $15usd/month to put into a "video game".

When I worked for (cencored) a lot of our players were from overseas and didn't have a lot of money and most were finding it hard to come up with cash just to use computers at internet cafe's ect. Free to play option = WIN for all.

I pay monthly... however a lot of people I fly with or around pay by isk and if they couldn't, I wouldn't have the opportunity to fly with or around them.

my 2 isk.

EVE is the only MMO to reach this age and still be growing. I'd say they are getting it right.

I could go on but you know what I have stated isn't just hyperbole, it is by and large reality. This community is incredibly self-destructive and loathsome. If it isn't in your hands it deserves to be blown up/stolen/griefed/etc. until the person who has it gives up. War decks, can flipping, suicide, gatecamps, theft are all tools to accomplish this goal. In the end you post for the "tears" and could care less how the other person feels or if they leave the game; in-fact most of you will cheer even louder if you cause someone to quit the game.

F2P done right would not kill it, only make it grow. I suppose they would have to make another server perhaps though to cope with increased population but then I guess the "one server, one world" would be gone?! Hmm, tough question, is too many players bad for eve online?

OP is right on the money.

The ASSHATS forget that the VAST majority of EVE players are Casual Players with little or limited time, but they pay anyway for the social aspects of Corps and other socially amenable activities, like Mining.

CCP is not stupid enough to NOT be aware of this....and that is a playerbase they will not lose, because they cannot afford to.

Believe me, the 'higher ups' take all this Nullbear and PewBear CRAP with an entire shaker of salt.............

And they let them THINK they might have a chance of getting their way by being on the Shadowplay that is the CSM.

If CCP truly listened to them, Macks would have zero resists and no mid-slots and no drone bay by now.

And you are right OP. IF things are pushed too far by the Nullbears and Pewbears....unfortunate rules will be put in place. Sh-- Happens when rules are abused....more restrictive rules come down, game gets nerfed utterly, and everybody loses with the now boring gameplay. They will have shot themselves in the foot with their lust for HighBear blood.

The ASSHATS forget that the VAST majority of EVE players are Casual Players with little or limited time

Citation please.

I'v I do not intend to offend and my tone isn't one of accusation but just clam reflection.

Just the SCALE of industry itself. Drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......................................

Do your own API pulls.

Just the SCALE of industry itself. Drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......................................

Do your own API pulls.

Not my job to research others claims. I'll just mark it down as non factual for the time being.

They all state their steadfast hatred against free to play and the revenue model that accompanies it.

No, it's your "job" to troll forums and derail anything that threatens your little pixel sand castle.

Eveonline has the best free to play model IMHO. Since it is different than other companies models, people are in vehement denial. I have several friends who have never payed a penny to play and never will. I have paid for eve, but only 1 GTC per account. 84 months of gameplay for the price of 6. Thats one hell of a deal.

I realize that its almost impossible play Eve completely free without being grandfathered in, but it has been done before, and it is quite easy to do if you are (grandfathered in).

With the 60 day trial keys that were given out, it would be exceedingly simple to play for free. I just got my youngest brother into the game with one of those and he already wants a 2nd account, and will be able to pay for it himself within 90 days.

How was that deviating from the conversation or trolling? He made a comment about the majority of people not having the time to play eve and I asked in a nice tone for a citation to said claim. I did not berate him. I did not belittle him. I asked for one simple citation.

Also I do not have a pixel sand castle so nothing is threatened on my end.

I didnt even read your trolled trailer trash.

You cherry picked the post so you could pick a fight.

Kiss my ass.

Alright class, this here is an attempt at trolling. As you can see the user is attempting to goad me into continuing to converse with them and more or less waste my time. You can see that the user does is not in the least concerned with the topic at hand and is instead just 'fishing' for hits.

Its funny how people use terms like bears and PVE, PVP and so on... The thing is everyone with no exception is all that.

How is it possible to loose ship after ship?

Where does the power houses of EvE get their income from?

What do you do in order to build a ship? That being in HS, LS or NULL...

Everyone just needs to get a grip, we are all a bunch of everything, do not come to the forum or anywhere else and say otherwise, you will only make yourself look even dumber than your in-game actions.

Another interesting speculation is, for the most part everyone has alts in NPC, its hilarious how someone can be so Hypocrite as to even down talk about any NPC, we all have use them.

There are no stats that can in GÇ£truthGÇ¥ represent what type of players are in greater numbers, if you ask yourselves why, there is a simple answer to that, that being, GÇ£for the most part we all cheat, lie and kanive against one another, we pretend to be... Doesn't matter all those pretty reports with percentages in them about population in HS, LS or Null, No one, CCP included can clearly say what player is what...

As to CCP, well, they just go with the flow, they do as what most of us do, pretend...

They all state their steadfast hatred against free to play and the revenue model that accompanies it.
They are all elite pvp'ers and very hardcore in their own minds, especially when gate camping and 10v1 odds.
Most of them hate everyone else who don't play the game exactly as they want them to play the game.
They will flame and outright personally attack anyone who doesn't agree with them or suggest some change that they don't agree with, civil discussion is outright impossible with most of this community.
Carebears must die and be driven from the game; miners must die and be driven from the game; industrialist must die and be driven from the game; incursion runners must die and be driven from the game; wormhole dwellers must die and be driven out of their hole and also want the game changed to remove ABC because....they want to control it themselves elsewhere.

Will it all kill EVE in the end? I hope so. It deserves it. Reap what you sow.

I hate to break it to you bud, but Eve has been running for 8 years and is still trucking. It was here a long time before you started playing and will still be here long after you have left to play pandas with Mr T and Chuck Norris.

Again, the game is 8 years old. CCP support the pew pew bears, they support the null bears. They have for 8 years. it's not a friendly game for Industrial alts. Its not a friendly game period. Its about meta wars, Alt wars, shanking people and if you see it any other way, you are just another victim getting in line. Will it all kill EVE in the end? I hope so. It deserves it. Reap what you sow.

F2P or B2P or 50 different variations of those are the new business models and soon there wont be any games with required monthly subscription, ever.

[quote=2bhammered]

Should they allow a restricted F2P with a premium subscription option? Whilst it is a possibility; the very nature of this sandbox game, the design of skills and training and the way everything is structured would seem to argue against this. Only able to train up to Cruisers? T2? Only allowed to use Tech 1 modules? What about only able to train to Rank III? It seems like this type of approach would go against the concept and if it is made too strong you create an incentive for players to not subscribe and simply use a free option.

This model would require a ton of restrictions. Without the restrictions any average Joe with a couple of pc's could make about 30 mining accounts and field some massive ore mining expeditions granted there is any ore left in high sec when everybody jumps on this bandwagon. Scam alts would become a dime a dozen as well. Once the scam is done just create a new alt and move along (not to mention the fact you could be leading a dozen scams in a dozen systems at one time)

What would all those restrictions be? Inability to trade with subscription accounts? Can only train up to T1 cruiser and limited to L2's? Restricted to .8 -1.0 systems? Advanced skills a no go?

I think this is part of what I enjoy about Plex now. CCP still gets their money, one player gets isk quick to fund his lifestyle, and another player essentially plays for free with all the equalities as the next man. It's a win-win-win for everybody.

To expand, the only time since it went live in 2003 where subscriptions dipped was when MT was introduced. While I am not against MT, or even against a FTP format, it does go to show that the "general attitude" in game is not the reason why it experienced that small dip.

Your premise is based on the fallacy that EVE is decreasing in player base, and that the reason players leave is because people are cut throat in this game... neither of which is fact.

The surest way for EVE to self destruct would be to change the rules to enforce "civilized behavior".

EVE is the only MMO to reach this age and still be growing. I'd say they are getting it right.

I love EVE, but when you dont even have 500k subs, its easy to say you're growing. I mean, its no knock on EVE, but a piece of **** MMO can come out tomorrow and launch with 500k subs and one with hype can top a mil easy.

39k online says that EVE is a niche product.

There should be 200,000 players lagging this server up daily and causing queues to show me this is a popular game people enjoy, but that just isn't happening, even on the weekends and those are the facts, if this game was so awesome then why are their so many accounts just sitting about being unused?

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/11/22/dc-universe-online-700-increase-in-daily-revenue-since-going-free-to-play/

Who knows?

Also League of Legends which is F2P is the most played online game and their revenue is massive. Hence why DOTA 2 is most likely becoming Valves most expensive and invested project ever etc.

I've started following the forums lately and I've come to a few conclusions regarding the eve community of the forums and elsewhere.

This community is incredibly self-destructive and loathsome. If it isn't in your hands it deserves to be blown up/stolen/griefed/etc. until the person who has it gives up. War decks, can flipping, suicide, gatecamps, theft are all tools to accomplish this goal. In the end you post for the "tears" and could care less how the other person feels or if they leave the game; in-fact most of you will cheer even louder if you cause someone to quit the game.

I'm not calling anyone out nor making a judgment pass. I do not intend to offend and my tone isn't one of accusation but just clam reflection. If you think I am wrong in my assessment please discuss why. I am hopeful we can maybe do some self assessment as a community. However, I am also a realist and know what will occur instead.

On a personal note I'm not perfectly comfortable with the fact that you also represent our alliance with that OP.

Now we must add some more reality to this: EVE subs are stagnant at best, this is no longer a growth title.

Why trolling? Because people who have played this game for years are TIRED of new players whining for more security, and disrespecting the prevailing playstyle as something that needs to be changed. 100% security simply is not what this game is about, 100% insecurity is. We don't understand what is so difficult about this to understand.

But in one point you are correct- people do want carebears out of EVE. In this context "carebear" is a person who wants to change the game rules to protect him/her, instead of using the existing game mechanics to protect himself.

You're wrong. You're so wrong that the Euro population is up 11% since the last patch, the US population is up 17% and the AUS TZ is up 45% (at an all time high in fact).

Of course, its easy to post good patch over patch numbers when your last patch was an epic failure, but this one's doing damn well. :)

-Liang

Sources:
- http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4i
- http://bit.ly/z55dg6

No, 39k online with how much was it last announcement? 200,000 subscribers?

One thing that has always struck me as odd is why CCP thinks making a game that encourages griefing and driving people away is a good business model. Maybe they did not realize the magnitude of the issue and thought they would get sufficient subscriptions in any case. Maybe they are satisfied with the current level of subscriptions, and are simply not looking for Eve to be a multimillion player game. Or maybe they think having sufficient employees to police a "no griefing" policy would be so costly that it would not pay off despite increased subscriptions.

...

Oh dear. Facts, arguments, CITATIONS?!

(seems a lot of effort to whack the obvious troll)

They all state their steadfast hatred against free to play and the revenue model that accompanies it.

especially when gate camping and 10v1 odds.

Most of them hate everyone else who don't play the game exactly as they want them to play the game.

They will flame and outright personally attack anyone who doesn't agree with them or suggest some change that they don't agree with, civil discussion is outright impossible with most of this community.

Carebears must die and be driven from the game; miners must die and be driven from the game; industrialist must die and be driven from the game; incursion runners must die and be driven from the game; wormhole dwellers must die and be driven out of their hole and also want the game changed to remove ABC because....they want to control it themselves elsewhere.

I hate to break it to you but I pointed that out twice already. Too bad you can't read. Even when I pointed it out a few lines before your shoddy attempt to hack and drag it out of context, troll boy.

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

If you have numbers that somehow say "subs are up" without CCP publishing them more power to you.

Less players play on the tranquility server now than at its peak.

The people who actually log onto the server and monitor its activity while they play know there are less people.

Show me where the peak is

Edit: Click on the 150k link on that page, to the left. No, your other left.

The people who actually log onto the server and monitor its activity while they play know there are less people.

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Show me where the chart is. That's "subscriptions", and CCP has not released subscription numbers in quite some time. Those numbers were published in October of last year and were released prior to that.

Your chart is about subscribers.

My post says less people are on tranquility.

Your chart in now way shape or form demerits what I am saying.

Your information is > 6 months old, and therefore inaccurate. I am not saying I posted numbers. I am saying I observed it.

If you could post something that contradicts my observation I would love to see it. No chart based on subscription numbers will ever disprove what I am saying, which is that less people log onto the server nowadays.

Your chart is about subscribers.

My post says less people are on tranquility.

Your chart in now way shape or form demerits what I am saying.

Your information is > 6 months old, and therefore inaccurate. I am not saying I posted numbers. I am saying I observed it.

If you could post something that contradicts my observation I would love to see it. No chart based on subscription numbers will ever disprove what I am saying, which is that less people log onto the server nowadays.

I actually do log on to the server and I can say that the server feels much more active in the last couple of months. Oddly enough, that tallies exactly with the data from eve-offline...... !



Indeed.

-Liang

I can't contradict the fewer players claim because I don't see players in game, I see ships that belong to subscriptions. There is no way I can tell you if 10 mining barges huddled together is ten people, or one person, and I know you can't do the same. This is why we based numbers on subscriptions. Regardless of who owns what subscription it still counts as a purchased account. CCP aint got no buy one get one free deal here. Hence, the chart that I use is providing good data as it has with every game I look after. Personally he has been the best source for me for years as he gets his information from multiple sources and verifies it as best as he can.

By the way, I am surprised that you are able to cover some 5000 systems every night and personally make a head count in each one.

As for the rest, well, lets just say I'm not surprised. I knew you were going to find any reason to discredit any data shown to you and that you wouldn't be able to back any of your own claims up other than 'I saw less people in x system, game is dying'.

Unless your point is that "although more people are subscribing (and CCP revenue increases), fewer seem to be on at peak times), I would say his point is entirely relevant.

Your chart is about subscribers.

My post says less people are on tranquility.

Your chart in now way shape or form demerits what I am saying.

Your information is > 6 months old, and therefore inaccurate. I am not saying I posted numbers. I am saying I observed it.

If you could post something that contradicts my observation I would love to see it. No chart based on subscription numbers will ever disprove what I am saying, which is that less people log onto the server nowadays.

the point is the chart is inaccurate due to age.

There are both apps and websites that monitor server connections. I use an app that I can see in game via the windows sidebar.

the point is the chart is inaccurate due to age.

I'm impressed. It's rare to see so many factual errors crammed into a single OP.

If you could post something that contradicts my observation I would love to see it. No chart based on subscription numbers will ever disprove what I am saying, which is that less people log onto the server nowadays.

No, 39k online with how much was it last announcement? 200,000 subscribers? ( correct me if I'm wrong on that number but that's the last report I remember ) Says this is an unpopular game, if CCP had devoted themselves to this type of game and making EVE as good as it can be rather than going for get rich quick schemes or pissing away their time on unknown MMORPGs and games they'd have far more people playing than people just subscribing.

Ok, how about charts that actually look at the number of people logged into the server nowadays? Would that be sufficient for you?

Lets see... According to the data pulled from Eve-Offline (analyzed here: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/crucible-mission-accomplished/ ), since shortly before the release of Crucible:
- The server has 11% more EU TZ people playing (60 day rolling - its actually much higher if you take a 7 or 30 day roll)
- The server has 17% more US TZ people playing (60 day rolling, again much higher if you take a 7 or 30 day roll)
- The server has 45% more AUS TZ people playing( 60 days, higher, yadda yadda)

Graph for you: http://liangnuren.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chart_1.png

Basically: if you feel that the server activity is trending down, you're projecting... and just outright wrong.

-Liang

Less players play on the tranquility server now than at its peak.

According to these articles[1][2] your average SWTOR server can expect to have somewhere between 1400 and 2700 people. This includes both the shards and the "sharded zones" that have different people running on the same map. Thus, we could say (for example) that 39k people online is the equivalent of 14 and 27 servers. Split the difference and call it 21.

So lets assume that SWTOR is representative of all sharded MMOs and note that Rift has 16 US TZ servers and 18 EU TZ servers[3]. Noting that only one of those server sets really comes into play at a time, we can safely say that on average that Eve has ~15% more people playing than Rift does.

Now, one might argue that its terrible if Eve is merely as popular as Rift - afterall, Rift just went half free to play! However, the situations are quite distinct. Consider:
- Eve has long since been turning a profit, and is continuing to turn quite a pretty penny in profit. Enough to outright pay for the development of at least one extra game.
- Eve's sub graph doesn't look like Rift's[4].
- Eve's sub graph has a high correlation to its population graph. Consider the server metrics [5][6] as well.

Basically: while 39k seems like its "really low"... its actually not.

-Liang

[1] http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-03-swtor-has-350-000-peak-concurrent-users-report
[2] http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=240117
[3] http://www.riftstatus.com/
[4] http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
[5] http://wp.me/p1WQ0O-4i
[6] http://bit.ly/z55dg6

I wouldn't say that EvE is an unpopular game. In fact it is extremely popular...for being hard as hell to play. Which is why it has nowhere near the number of subscribers as the higher ranked MMO's out there. Games like WoW, EQ, ToR and the like have the subscriber numbers they have because they are easy and casual friendly. EvE is difficult and does not cater to the average player. Doesn't mean it's a bad game...means it is a niche game.

By the way...I think Star Wars: The Old Republic is averaging something like 500k players on at a given time right now. If I am not mistaken that is almost as many subscribers as EvE has. Either way...no comparison on all levels. There is no other MMO like EvE and it has no reason to and doesn't need to compete with any other MMO right now.

I could go on but you know what I have stated isn't just hyperbole, it is by and large reality. This community is incredibly self-destructive and loathsome.

So what? It keeps growing regardless because of this. Why fix something that isn't broken?

It is good to see such high quality posts, thank you.

Basically: while 39k seems like its "really low"... its actually not.

I am not saying its "really low", I am saying its lower than it could be and has been.

No offense but....

If I were a dev I would love that post too. It alludes to subscriptions being up without CCP having to post the numbers. Then once you guys get more subs you can post the numbers again and release a dev blog or new QEN or whatever. You'll never have to publish how many subs Incarna cost.

I want CCP to succeed, I want enough people to play Eve to keep it alive indefinitely and I applaud what they have accomplished.

I am not saying its "really low", I am saying its lower than it could be and has been.

So lets assume that SWTOR is representative of all sharded MMOs

we can safely say that on average that Eve has ~15% more people playing than Rift does.

Why are we making this assumption?

One person -> one character?

Because Rift doesn't have any publically available statistics for what "low" "medium" and "high" represent.

Ultimately, the justification for that assumption is that they're both sharded MMOs with what appears to be similar ratios.

Consider that Rift top ended at ~70 servers with ~800-900k subs .. which seems to be similar to ~250 servers with 1.7M subs.

EVE is a niche product marketed to a very small audience those of us who give no mercy and expect none in return. There are literally hundreds of other MMO's out there that don't tolerate certain "behaviors". Go play one of those if you dislike EVE.

Okay, fair enough. Er... wait. What? 70 servers with 900k subs is equal to twice that many subs on (mild hyperbole) four times (/mild hyperbole) that many servers?

I mean at this point it's just a technical objection, but geez. Now I have to go back over all your math. eh... tl;dr.

Anyway it's obvious EVE's not dying. I'm here.

The SWTOR numbers are pretty solid, but Trion (Rift) has always been really cagey about their sub and population numbers. I don't actually know if they had 900k subs at the same time they had 70 servers - though those were rough maxes I saw when googling about. I could put more effort into that comparison if you'd really like, but the biggest reason to draw the parallel from SWTOR's freely stated numbers to Rift is to illustrate how well Eve is doing compared to a "main stream" game.

No, it's your "job" to troll forums and derail anything that threatens your little pixel sand castle.

That said, you guys are all a little new? The game is 8 years old, nothing has changed. Bad behaviour has always been rewarded in EVE 500% more than honor or integrity. CCp have managed for 8 years without ever implementing a mechanic (not an employee) that allows the game to thrive in civility. The Null Bears and pew Bears have full backing by CCP.

The rest of EVE are seen as usefull idiots.

This is EVE. Adapt or GTFO.

EVE is a sandbox by nature, which means the players make the "content" for the most part. If EVE turned into happy fun carebear theme park it would be an extremely boring game. Its the unpredictable sandbox that makes EVE appealing.

I played another mmo that will not be named for 6 years, and it was the same old thing every week, show up for raid at the designated time, kill the same scripted dragons you killed last week, the only "progress" you see is either a new piece of gear or another boss kill on some epeen waving site.

With EVE you really never know exactly what you are doing from one day to the next (unless you do nothing but PvE), one night you could end up in a 1000+ person fleet battle, the next night it could be quiet giving you some time to make isk.

I see the sandbox and freedom topics are very common on this kind of thread, and I agree with this up to some extent, but EVE is not truly a sandbox, not 100% at least. We have imposed rules and game mechanics that, sometimes obviously, other times more subtly, lead players to certain goals and also define "better" ways to reach those goals. This means that many times, the way players react (in game, in forums or in comms) is conditioned by CCP's rules, even if they (players) think is just their internal nature (or human nature) to react like that and do the things they do, the way they do.

Sand boxes have walls (rules), but what you do in between is entirely up to you.

Eve is a sandbox.

-Liang

If the rules change your behaviour changes as well, so no, it's not really entirely up to you.

That statement just shows how dumb you are. In reality, it is actually smart to pay $$ for ISK if you have a well paid job and don't like PvE or trading. I don't expect you to understand why for obvious reasons. I also don't expect you to understand the difference between the current PLEX system and MT/F2P. I guess if EvE ever goes F2P it is just players like you that will be around.

Basically: while 39k seems like its "really low"... its actually not.

This is from PC Gamer, so take it with a grain of salt, but here you go - http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/02/eve-online-has-over-360000-players-63170-simultaneous-users-in-january/

and that makes it more worrying for me, because what happened to all the players? Did the server hamster get hiccups over the month? There aren't many holidays or reasons for people not to be playing in February for crying out loud.

Are you talking about the players online *RIGHT NOW* in the middle of AUS TZ? In that case, all the players went to bed. ;-)

Just a quick note that you can't use number of servers/realms in other games to extrapolate from. You do need insider information.
The population allowed in a realm is not primarily dictated by how much the "server" (cluster really) can handle, but by GAMEPLAY - cram as many people as possible into a server, but not beyond the point where it threatens overpopulation.
Overpopulation is very dependent on the game mechanics in that specific MMO, for example, quest layout, zoning, instancing, ranged or melee combat, etc, all affect how many players you should (note: not *can*) place in a world.

Also, one cannot just look at US and ignore EU when and if these extrapolations are done. There is a very wide overlap of EU and US players with global peak at about 1900CET - this is why we europeans schedule maintenance at work hours and californians have to be up at 3am for the same work.
Now, the really interesting question is what is the churn of the subscriberbase in the different MMOs, i.e. per 100k subscribers, how many of those did you have to acquire each and every month to maintain that level of subs? Does your marketing and PR spend eat up all profits? What point is there to maintain high subs if you're not profitable?

As for Eve, it's not a big game in any way shape or form. But it *is* big enough to have critical mass of players and I have fun in it every single day. That's what counts!

I could go on but you know what I have stated isn't just hyperbole, it is by and large reality. This community is incredibly self-destructive and loathsome. If it isn't in your hands it deserves to be blown up/stolen/griefed/etc. until the person who has it gives up. War decks, can flipping, suicide, gatecamps, theft are all tools to accomplish this goal. In the end you post for the "tears" and could care less how the other person feels or if they leave the game; in-fact most of you will cheer even louder if you cause someone to quit the game.

Obviously these folks have a point.

Why play EVE when you can play a much nicer game where you only murder, assasinate, rob, gank, elimanate NPC's... cause that makes such activities a much friendlier experience.

Or if your bloodlust demands that you victimize another player, that poor fellow should immediately respawn with all of their equipment intact. Only in this way can you have a proper game that is fair to everyone regardless of their personal skills.

That way everyone is a winner, every single player is the best there is... at everything.

What a wonderful game that would be.

[quote=Micheal Dietrich]

That said, you guys are all a little new? The game is 8 years old, nothing has changed. Bad behaviour has always been rewarded in EVE 500% more than honor or integrity. CCp have managed for 8 years without ever implementing a mechanic (not an employee) that allows the game to thrive in civility. The Null Bears and pew Bears have full backing by CCP.

The rest of EVE are seen as usefull idiots.

This is EVE. Adapt or GTFO.

A sand castle is still made of sand. Is the fact that everything in a sandbox is made of sand a damning sign that the sandbox provider is shaping your behavior?

We have imposed rules and game mechanics that, sometimes obviously, other times more subtly, lead players to certain goals and also define "better" ways to reach those goals. This means that many times, the way players react (in game, in forums or in comms) is conditioned by CCP's rules, even if they (players) think is just their internal nature (or human nature) to react like that and do the things they do, the way they do.

Switching to "free" to play won't help Eve increase the size of its player base because I and a lot of other players will quit in disgust.

This ^^ and if EVE ever goes FTP it better bring in an extra couple million players or CCP will have to lay off more of its staff.

Whereas the F2P model has proven to work, I really don't see it as the best solution for everyone.

Depends if you're talking about F2P as completely free except for a shop, or just free of subs which is not actually F2P as you still have to purchase the game and the expansions, plus putting up with a shop.

Sand boxes have walls (rules), but what you do in between is entirely up to you.

Eve is a sandbox.

-Liang

A sand castle is still made of sand. Is the fact that everything in a sandbox is made of sand a damning sign that the sandbox provider is shaping your behavior?

Switching to "free" to play won't help Eve increase the size of its player base because I and a lot of other players will quit in disgust.

I see nothing in the OP but a series of unsubstantiated claims. Eve is a tough universe, you may have come across that tag line on more than a few occasions.

EVE isn't a tough universe, if it was tough it would be tough for everyone, right now the people attacking the OP for his comments on the obvious remind me so much of chavs in my country, they talk so much **** and boast about how awesome they are but the moment you decide to fight back they run off like the pussies they really are.

The only reason that people talk so much **** on the forums is because they know they can get away with it, it's the same thing elsewhere too, the majority of people wouldn't say half these things if they could be punched in the face for it. You aren't 'hardcore' or 'tough' for running around ganking solo players and industrialists, you're just an ******* who's too afraid to pick a fair fight.

I really wish they'd put FPS boarding combat in EVE, nothing would say "**** you and your Tech 2 battleship" more than a well placed shotgun to the face and being able to steal it after would only sweeten the deal.

I see nothing in the OP but a series of unsubstantiated claims. Eve is a tough universe, you may have come across that tag line on more than a few occasions.

I really wish they'd put FPS boarding combat in EVE, nothing would say "**** you and your Tech 2 battleship" more than a well placed shotgun to the face and being able to steal it after would only sweeten the deal.

Hestillmad

The only reason that people talk so much **** on the forums is because they know they can get away with it, it's the same thing elsewhere too, the majority of people wouldn't say half these things if they could be punched in the face for it. You aren't 'hardcore' or 'tough' for running around ganking solo players and industrialists, you're just an ******* who's too afraid to pick a fair fight.

You know just making posts like that prove my point and I'm not mad.


U mad :D because ur noobs and can't gank anything other than an industrial or solo player anymore.

I live in Santa Barbara CA and will be at The Brewhouse tomorrow at 5:30pm. And I'll tell you exactly the same things there. :)

-Liang

Yeahumad




Sweet, I'll be down there some time next month for a funeral, we should get together and talk about Valei being mad.

umadnoob

I'll be disappointed if you aren't a girl :(

I'll be disappointed if you aren't a girl :( oh and I'd still tell you the same things too regardless, it's a shame flight tickets are retardedly expensive going from Leeds/Bradford to America :S

EVE isn't a tough universe, if it was tough it would be tough for everyone, right now the people attacking the OP for his comments on the obvious remind me so much of chavs in my country, they talk so much **** and boast about how awesome they are but the moment you decide to fight back they run off like the pussies they really are.

The only reason that people talk so much **** on the forums is because they know they can get away with it, it's the same thing elsewhere too, the majority of people wouldn't say half these things if they could be punched in the face for it. You aren't 'hardcore' or 'tough' for running around ganking solo players and industrialists, you're just an ******* who's too afraid to pick a fair fight.

I really wish they'd put FPS boarding combat in EVE, nothing would say "**** you and your Tech 2 battleship" more than a well placed shotgun to the face and being able to steal it after would only sweeten the deal.

Of course they cna get away with it, THAT'S THE WHOLE DAMN POINT OF PLAYING A GAME!! To do things you aren't alllowed to do in normal society. I never claimed to be either hardcore or tough, I'm just killing people and enjoying it, in a game designed for that purpose. If you don't like it, you should go and ride your Emo high-horse all the way back to WoW.

No, 39k online with how much was it last announcement? 200,000 subscribers? ( correct me if I'm wrong on that number but that's the last report I remember ) Says this is an unpopular game, if CCP had devoted themselves to this type of game and making EVE as good as it can be rather than going for get rich quick schemes or pissing away their time on unknown MMORPGs and games they'd have far more people playing than people just subscribing.

I judge a game's success not by how many sales they make but by whether they're still playing it years later, the numbers actually being active in this game have gone up and down over the years but it still remains pretty low compared to the amount of subscribers there are.

There should be 200,000 players lagging this server up daily and causing queues to show me this is a popular game people enjoy, but that just isn't happening, even on the weekends and those are the facts, if this game was so awesome then why are their so many accounts just sitting about being unused?

Less players play on the tranquility server now than at its peak.

...removed a bunch of BS
you're just an ******* who's too afraid to pick a fair fight.