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Caldari damage bonus... wtf?

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Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 19:56:00 - [121] Quote: Missiles: Amarr damage------------EM Gallente damage---------Thermal Minmatar damage---------Explosive Caldari damage----------Kinetic Let me correct you: Missiles: Amarr damage------------All (sacrilege, yes only ham but perfect in that weapon type) Gallente damage---------Thermal (you talking about the bomber, the only gallente missile ship?) Minmatar damage---------All (rof bonus) Caldari damage----------Kinetic -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2008.03.04 19:59:00 - [122] Originally by: Lirt Missiles: Amarr damage------------All (sacrilege, yes only ham but perfect in that weapon type) Gallente damage---------Thermal (you talking about the bomber, the only gallente missile ship?) Minmatar damage---------All (rof bonus) Caldari damage----------Kinetic You are offcourse, listing the exceptions, like the raven, where there are no racial damage type bonuses.
Whip Slagcheek	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:00:00 - [123] Originally by: Lirt Whip explain sacrilege and minmatar ships that get rof to missiles which is a dmg bonus to all liek the raven. Sacrilege is Khanid mk II. It was designed way after most of these other ships. The rof bonus is there to bring the total dps of the hac up to par with other ships. Minmatar are the versatile race. Their projectile ammo does mainly explosive with some of all other damage types mixed in. Minmatar don't have any ships I can think of (besides bomber) that use missiles only. So although they can switch out to all thermal missiles if they wanted to, their total damage profile coming out is still going to be skewed towards explosive. I'm telling you, the really only exceptions in this whole thing are ships like the Raven and Dominix (not so much since drones favor thermal damage). If anything, your trolling / sincere attempt to address a problem would end up with all Caldari ships being forced into kinetic damage bonuses and not removing them as you are proposing them. You either redo all weapon systems so all weapon systems can do all damage types, make it so none of the Caldari ships get a missile weapon system bonus and instead have a racial damage bonus, or you leave it as it is and be grateful you have some Caldari missile boats that can do 100% of their dps potential in any damage type they want.
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:00:00 - [124] Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:00:28 Brodde: Only 1 exception, the raven, and i already said numerous times that i agree its fine. -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Arkios Odymei Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:02:00 - [125] Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 04/03/2008 20:04:12 Originally by: Lirt Arkios you forget that 10% dmg bonus has only the crow and rof bonus only the raven. I already said the raven is fine and the crow gets 10% dmg bonus cause it doens't get another bonus for caldari frigate level, so instead of 2 bonuses it gets one doubled. You want kinetic only for caldari ships? Ok make all caldari missile ships with a 10% dmg bonus to kinetic. You also forgot the Kestrel (10% damage to Kin, 5% to all others). And yeah you got me... I cant believe I never realized that lol. Maybe because I never really flew any of the other Kinetic bonused ships. I prefer tha caldari gun ships my self. Ill change my tune. Im not not irrational and am open to change my mind when presented with a good idea. I'll go with all Missile Racial damage bonuses changed to 10%. That goes for all racial missile damage bonuse, not just caldari's. But my Khanid argument stays. I dont like the Idea of all the bonuses being 5% to all types. Variety is the spice of life after all. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:03:00 - [126] Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:05:34 Quote: skewed towards explosive. The key phrase of all you say, skewed, not restricted. Solutions are many, you can give 5% to kinetic and 2,5% to explosive missile damage or to 2,5% all others like kestrel for caldari, like the turrets that get lower damage to the second type. -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:08:00 - [127] Originally by: Lirt Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:00:28 Brodde: Only 1 exception, the raven, and i already said numerous times that i agree its fine. Yes, but you use the exception ships from the other races to prove your point? You are making a very scewed comparison. I agree it would be fine to change the missiles so they do different amounts of damage for each type and then change the caldari missile ships bonus to a plain 5% damage bonus. How about starting with kinetic missiles do same as today, and then let thermal do 80% as much, then explosive at 65% and at last EM with 51% of the kinetic missiles damage. Or you can just keep it the way it is. Imho it is fine.
Ssoraszh Tzarszh Minmatar The Royal Engineers Free Trade and Industries Coalition	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:10:00 - [128] Originally by: Arkios Odymei I'll go with all Missile Racial damage bonuses changed to 10%. That goes for all racial missile damage bonuse, not just caldari's. This would become 5% like the weapon bonuses, not the beefed up extra 10% due to teh fact that it is a focused one.
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:12:00 - [129] Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:13:52 Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:12:53 These ships i mention are the only missile ships like gallente bomber and sacrilege. Ok amarr have the bomber also, but those arenot exceptions, they are the most part of missile boats of those races. Caldari have many missile boats and only raven gets rof bonus. Why not give rof bonsu instead of kinetic dmg bonus? Quote: I agree it would be fine to change the missiles so they do different amounts of damage for each type and then change the caldari missile ships bonus to a plain 5% damage bonus. How about starting with kinetic missiles do same as today, and then let thermal do 80% as much, then explosive at 65% and at last EM with 51% of the kinetic missiles damage. Yes this is a nice idea. -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Whip Slagcheek	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:14:00 - [130] Originally by: Lirt Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:07:16 Quote: skewed towards explosive. The key phrase of all you say, skewed, not restricted. Solutions are many, you can give 5% to kinetic and 2,5% to explosive missile damage or 2,5% to all others like kestrel for caldari, like the turrets that get lower damage to the second type. Many many ships have a distributed damage profile. Every ship with a drone bay can do rainbow damage. Every ship with missile hardpoints can do rainbow damage. Every ship that can fit a smartbomb can do rainbow damage. The idea of racial damage is a trend. If Caldari didn't have kinetic only damage bonuses to many of their ships, they would be free of this trend. Even Minmatar which are supposed to be versatile, is probably locked in towards explosive damage more than Caldari is for kinetic / thermal. If you're talking about changes (which most people don't feel are necessary), then look at making all Caldari missile using ships have flat out kinetic damage bonuses for missiles (ie Raven nerf) or change missiles to be like drones so that kinetic missiles do more damage than all the rest (ie Raven nerf). Any other changes would be much larger scale and would have to include all weapon platforms (rigs to change damage types?). Anyway I'll try to make my point again, be happy it's kinetic.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:15:00 - [131] Originally by: Lirt Tsanse you do LESS dmg to the second type, you dont do only one damage type. And yes i read the post. That's as much a disadvantage as an advantage. Actually it's more a disadvantage. Most Minni players with any sense would love to remove secondary damage types if they could add it to primary. Of course, that would be stupid and imbalanced, and it would require overhauling everything. Granted, Amarr crystal is different though, but only because they only have the two types, and EM is so well resisted due to outside factors. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:16:00 - [132] This: Quote: I agree it would be fine to change the missiles so they do different amounts of damage for each type and then change the caldari missile ships bonus to a plain 5% damage bonus. How about starting with kinetic missiles do same as today, and then let thermal do 80% as much, then explosive at 65% and at last EM with 51% of the kinetic missiles damage. and this: Quote: Solutions are many, you can give 5% to kinetic and 2,5% to explosive missile damage or 2,5% to all others like kestrel for caldari, like the turrets that get lower damage to the second type. are some fine ideas Whip and i dont think they are a nerf to the other races, nor they will buff caldari to the skies. -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Zantrei Kordisin True Centii	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:22:00 - [133] Originally by: Lirt Every one of you know this is an issue, you jsut dont admit it cause you dont want caldari tog et buffed. You only want your race to get buffed and others get nerfed. I'll put it you down to this: Sacrilege vs Cerberus, explain to me the difference in the damage bonus and i will stop. Btw its not only sacrilege, its other amarr missile ships as well and all minmatar missile ships. Just a random choice. Actually, in your case you are just trying to get Caldari buffed when it isn't needed. I personally have characters specced in all races, and Caldari is FAR from needing a boost. Sacrilege vs Cerberus? Sacrilege is designed for short range, hence damage bonus for only heavy assault launchers, and note that the Sacrilege only has two (2) missile bonuses. Then take the Cerberus. Kinetic damage bonus for ALL types of missile. Not just heavy assaults, no - heavy missiles, light missiles, the whole works. That's pretty decent. Even turret ships only get bonuses for a certain size of turret. Then, flight time bonus of 10%, and 10% speed bonus. That's basically two optimal range bonuses. Nice. Then, on top of all that, you have a nice little rate of fire bonus to top it off. So, when using kinetic missiles, the Cerberus can use heavy assault missiles with the same damage, from TWICE the range, with slightly less damage from other missile damage types (but the range makes up for it); and it is superior with all other kinds of missile (heavy missiles, lights, etc). Is this getting through to you yet?
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:24:00 - [134] Originally by: Lirt Quote: Kinetic don't work for you? Load Thermal. It don't work? Load explosive. Sh*t hes tanked on that as well? Load EM. Nothing works? Maybe its time for Kitty Online... While all you others get bonus to 2 damage types so you have 50% for your ammo to work, i have 25% chance and when i change from kinetic i lose my damage bonus, so its effectively same as if i had kinetic and maybe worse... Yea so fair!... Waaaa Waaaaa - cry me a river. If you don't want kinetic damage bonus on your ships then fly some other ship. LOOOOL I'm quite content that I can chose between the ships and bonus types. And did it ever occur to you that you can do with missiles 100% the damage type you want to do? With turrets you almost always have some other, less efficient damage type as well. So... go ahead and do some calculations.
Whip Slagcheek	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:25:00 - [135] Originally by: Lirt Quote: more than Caldari is for kinetic / thermal. Caldari missile boats are kinetic only not thermal, unlike minmatar missile boats for example. Most Caldari ships can fit a couple turrets or drones. Even when the only weapon platform is missiles (think cerberus) they usually get a double damage bonus with one being kinetic. This encourages kinetic usage to go with that racial damage idea but switching to another type doesn't negate all the bonuses of the ship.
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:25:00 - [136] Originally by: Lirt These ships i mention are the only missile ships like gallente bomber and sacrilege. Ok amarr have the bomber also, but those arenot exceptions, they are the most part of missile boats of those races. Caldari have many missile boats and only raven gets rof bonus. Why not give rof bonsu instead of kinetic dmg bonus? Those are the exceptions. They have nothing to do with racial bonuses. Why not give every race turret ammo with changable damage types? Why not let all drones do the same amount of damage? Because the diversity makes the game fun. It takes some strategy to chose ammo type, and you can sometimes predict what kind of damage your enemy will dish out. Also, the idea that you liked would limit the damage types of the Caldari missile boats even more.
Arkios Odymei Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:27:00 - [137] Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 04/03/2008 20:30:27 Originally by: Lirt Quote: I agree it would be fine to change the missiles so they do different amounts of damage for each type and then change the caldari missile ships bonus to a plain 5% damage bonus. How about starting with kinetic missiles do same as today, and then let thermal do 80% as much, then explosive at 65% and at last EM with 51% of the kinetic missiles damage. Yes this is a nice idea. That would essentialy be making them the same as Drones (differnt drones do different damage types and amounts). I still say keep the current style of missiles (stock = same lower dps over any damage type, but a bonus to a specific damage type to bring their damage in line with Gun weapon systems in a limited damage type.) Still Needs to be 10% racial damage types. Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh This would become 5% like the weapon bonuses, not the beefed up extra 10% due to teh fact that it is a focused one. Quite the contrary. The only missile system that does comparable damage to a gun system slot-for-slot are Torps, and the only ships that can use torps do not have any racial damage bonuses (only ROF). All others, slot-for-slot are weaker, and these are the ones with the 5% racial damage bonuses. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:30:00 - [138] Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:30:01 Gnulpie: read whole thread before posting, you sound silly. Some ideas have been posted that dont give 100% dmg bonus. Zantrei: first sacrilege also get rof bonus, sacrilege gets only hams yes but still with the cerberus you will use one weapon type also not 2 at the same time. Yes with cerberus you can choose type but the whole point is that with hams both, the cerberus might get a range bonus but the sacrilege gets a resistance bonus and can do full dmg on all dmg types. -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Whip Slagcheek	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:32:00 - [139] Quote: caracal, drake, nightmare, hawk, crow, phoenix, rook, cerberus Caracal: 2 turret hardpoints, drone bay. kinetic only argument doesn't apply Drake: drone bay (5 lights, thermal highest dps drone). kinetic only argument doesn't apply. nightmare: lol wrong ship nighthawk: multiple damage bonuses. only one bonus is kinetic only. turret hardpoint and drones. kinetic only argument doesn't apply hawk: turret hardpoints. kinetic only argument doesn't apply crow: turret hardpoints. kinetic only argument doesn't apply phoenix: multiple damage bonus. only one is kinetic. drone bay. turret hardpoint. kinetic only argument doesn't apply rook: turret hardpoints. ewar ship. kinetic only argument doesn't apply. cerberus: multiple damage bonuses. only one is kinetic. kinetic only argument doesn't apply Which ships exactly are we discussing?
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:33:00 - [140] Originally by: Brodde Dim Also, the idea that you liked would limit the damage types of the Caldari missile boats even more. Explain. Quote: usually get a double damage bonus with one being kinetic. You mean crow?... -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Whip Slagcheek	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:34:00 - [141] Sacrilege is khanid mk ii. If you don't understand why it gets the bonuses it gets, go read the dev blog. It's restricted in other ways than damage type (range).
Whip Slagcheek	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:34:00 - [142] Originally by: Lirt You mean crow?... Crow isn't a missile only boat.
Zantrei Kordisin True Centii	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:35:00 - [143] Originally by: Lirt Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:30:01 Gnulpie: read whole thread before posting, you sound silly. Some ideas have been posted that dont give 100% dmg bonus. Zantrei: first sacrilege also get rof bonus, sacrilege gets only hams yes but still with the cerberus you will use one weapon type also not 2 at the same time. Yes with cerberus you can choose type but the whole point is that with hams both, the cerberus might get a range bonus but the sacrilege gets a resistance bonus and can do full dmg on all dmg types. So? The Sacrilege is better at using Heavy Assault missiles, so what? Are you going to start complaining that there isn't an effective Caldari laser ship next? The Sacrilege is useless with all other types of missile, it's only good with HAM's. The cerberus is a superior missile ship. Where are you going with this? All of your reasons have been countered, all you are doing now is nitpicking about things that really aren't important. Caldari are not underpowered, live with it, and stop accusing others of only being out to get their own race boosted when that is simply all you are trying to do.
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:36:00 - [144] Wtf are you talking about Whip, turret hardpoints?? Yea and you as amarr have turret hardpoints to put hybrid then, why you want laser buff? Also even with turrets you still dont get dmg bonus which is like changing ammo in missiles so kinetic argument still applies. Now about the rof bonus, (i guess thats what you mean double dmg bonus) thats actually NOT a double dmg bonus, its rof for all types and a kinetic only dmg bonus so it still restricts you to kinetic. kinetic argument still applies. -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:38:00 - [145] Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:39:37 Quote: All of your reasons have been countered, all you are doing now is nitpicking about things that really aren't important. I really dont see my reasons being countered... sacrilege gets only 1 weapon type and its perfect in that. After all amarr are not missile race. Cerberus gets kinetic only dmg, whats the point if you can change weapon type it still does kinetic only dmg. Thats the problem. Not to mention minmatar with rof bonus and can use every kind of missile type. -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:39:00 - [146] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Blane Xero My attempt to open the OP and his alts eyes. I respect you as a forum poster although you don't share that with other people.. Since all that you said was a lot of babble, that's based on you not reading any of the posts, or trying to understand what the OP is requesting, I am just going to ask you one question. When is the last time you flew a Kinetic fitted Caldari boat in PvP? Oh, sorry sorry, I'll ask you another one, have you ever flown a Kinetic misile fitted Caldari boat in PvP? Since you are so ardently making your point, i think we should limit the MK2 ships line to 5% EM misile damage bonus only. It's only fair. What do you think? I have flown the raven (no damage bonus) the drake, the crow, the cerberus, the caracal, the drake, the ferox with missiles, nighthawk and kestrel, and probably most of the ships caldari have that have more than 50% of its highslots in missile hard points. Missile ships (as the op points out 2 posts down from yours) often get an ROF bonus that affects all missile types, not one missile type specifically. @ Op, about your dig at the sacrilege's 5% more damage to all missiles it launches, have you seen how little base damage heavy assault missiles have? because thats the only missiles the sacrilege gets a bonus for as far as the description and my own tests have revealed. I'll probably read the rest of the posts i haven't yet and make another post when i have...
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:41:00 - [147] Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:42:13 Quote: have you seen how little base damage heavy assault missiles have? Have you seen their rof? And why change the hams after all they are great for small and large ships... -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Arkios Odymei Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:41:00 - [148] Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 04/03/2008 20:43:17 Originally by: Lirt Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:30:01 Gnulpie: read whole thread before posting, you sound silly. Some ideas have been posted that dont give 100% dmg bonus. Zantrei: first sacrilege also get rof bonus, sacrilege gets only hams yes but still with the cerberus you will use one weapon type also not 2 at the same time. Yes with cerberus you can choose type but the whole point is that with hams both, the cerberus might get a range bonus but the sacrilege gets a resistance bonus and can do full dmg on all dmg types. Sac bonuses = limits on range. It can use longer ranged Heavy Missiles of all damage types, but it will be wasting its HAM bonus. Cerb bonuses = limits on damage type. It can deal other damages than kinetic with either short (HAMs) and long (Heavies) ranged systems, but it will be wasting the Kinetic damage bonus. The big thing is that the sac is able to decide on the type of damage it is doing without penalty. it has comparable bonuses to the deimos and Zealot, but on a per-slot-basis, it will be doing less damage than they can because missiles trade the dps advantage for the ability to freely chose damage types. The Cerb on the other hand doesnt have as much freedom to choose damage types as one of its bonuses are to Kinitic damage. Since this bonus is still only 5%, it is not only limited in damage type, but also in damage amount as it uses missile systems vs guns. Boost to 10%! ------------------------------------------------------------------
Whip Slagcheek	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:42:00 - [149] Originally by: Lirt Wtf are you talking about Whip, turret hardpoints?? Yea and you as amarr have turret hardpoints to put hybrid then, why you want laser buff? Also even with turrets you still dont get dmg bonus which is like changing ammo in missiles so kinetic argument still applies. Now about the rof bonus, (i guess thats what you mean double dmg bonus) thats actually NOT a double dmg bonus, its rof for all types and a kinetic only dmg bonus so it still restricts you to kinetic. kinetic argument still applies. My point is that there isn't a single Caldari ship that is strictly limited to kinetic. Even the missile boats you point out as your examples can fit turrets to give them kinetic / thermal profiles which is exactly what every other race has to deal with. Even then you can switch out your missiles to something else and you lose only the kinetic bonus but keep the ROF bonus (that's called a double damage bonus, one for ROF and one for damage).
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.04 20:46:00 - [150] Arkios: When you compare, you compare similar ships, carberus and sacrilege with hams... sacrilege is far better with its dmg bonus. Yes cerberus can switch to hm but only at station and again it will do kinetic only, with what advantage? range... yea like cerberus is so fast to outrange you... And its not only the sacrilege... -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"

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