Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: Lirt

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Flycatcher-----------------All dictors are same, no reason to prefer flycatcher
Onyx-----------------------All HICs are same no reason to prefer Onyx
Leviathan - Hi Oort *waves*---All titans same no reason to prefer Leviathan

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 04/03/2008 16:40:35
Flycatcher-----------------All dictors are same, no reason to prefer flycatcher
Onyx-----------------------All HICs are same no reason to prefer Onyx
Leviathan - Hi Oort *waves*---All titans same no reason to prefer Leviathan

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Kinetic is a good damagetype to be honest.

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Originally by: Zeba

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Kinetic is a good damagetype to be honest.

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Indeed. It could be much worse. You could be stuck with EM like Amarr.

Shields down! oh wait.. did we just hit a brick wall?

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Originally by: Lirt

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Not THAT good. Especially with all those armor tankers around.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Originally by: Zeba

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Kinetic is a good damagetype to be honest.

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Indeed. It could be much worse. You could be stuck with EM like Amarr.

Shields down! oh wait.. did we just hit a brick wall?

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You getting boosted next patch, why you whine?, you want more?! Also you do thermal too not only EM, not that good in thermal but you still also do thermal.

Caldari are stuck with kinetic ONLY!

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Quote:

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And last time I checked you can load any damage type of missile into a caldari ships launcher.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Kinetic is a good damagetype to be honest.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Here we go again... And nullify the damage bonus i get after days of training??!!

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Originally by: Destoration

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He has a point.....my absolutions lowest armor resist is actually kinectic (not much lower but still)

-Destoration

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Originally by: Lirt

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Originally by: Destoration

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He has a point.....my absolutions lowest armor resist is actually kinectic (not much lower but still)

-Destoration

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So what? and gallente get the highest t2 damage resistance in kinetic? That doesn't justify a reasont o put only kinetic...

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Originally by: Xennith

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remind me, which caldari ships have a bonus to only kinetic damage?

caracal, drake, raven, kestral and erm... crow right?

why not try flying something else, the scorpion is made of crystalised win for example.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 16:51:05
I am not discussing if kinetic is good damage! I am discussing why ONLY kinetic? You know thermal is good damage also then why gellente have kinetic also? Same goes for minmatar and same goes now for amarr that get boosted. Not to mention another shield (caldari) nerf resulting that amarr boost.

Quote:

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And last time I checked you can load any damage type of missile into a caldari ships launcher.

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Here we go again... And nullify the damage bonus i get after days of training??!!

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 16:51:05
I am not discussing if kinetic is good damage!

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Originally by: Tania Russ

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Those of us who actually build stuff and accomplish something worthwhile in Eve, as opposed to pirates, who basically don't accomplish anything but stealing other people's stuff.

Originally by: The Herrick

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I really don't see what the issue is here.

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Originally by: Nasta443

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Edited by: Nasta443 on 04/03/2008 16:58:46

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Originally by: Tania Russ

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Those of us who actually build stuff and accomplish something worthwhile in Eve, as opposed to pirates, who basically don't accomplish anything but stealing other people's stuff.

Originally by: Lirt

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Xenith: I am not saying kinetic sux, im saying why ONLY kinetic???

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Quote:

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they wine when they get the boost torp, they wine when they get the ecm buff, etc. and now this.

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Originally by: The Herrick

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 16:51:05
I am not discussing if kinetic is good damage!

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I really don't see what the issue is here.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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they wine when they get the boost torp, they wine when they get the ecm buff, etc. and now this.

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Did you see me whine about torpedo buff?
All players playing a race whine about something they find unfair.

Zeba: You get a damage bonus!! about what velocity bonus you talking about...

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Quote:

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I do. Its clueless op among few other things related to him.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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I do. Its clueless op among few other things related to him.

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Explain or crawl.

Masaona: i wont say it again sry, read previous posts.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Xennith: Then every race should be pick ONE damage...why only caldari had to pick???

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Quote:

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What would you prefer? A ship bonus of 10% Kinetic missile damage, or Ship bonus of 5% Kinetic and 5% Thermal? They can nerf it for you, no problem.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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I do. Its clueless op among few other things related to him.

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Explain or crawl.

Masaona: i wont say it again sry, read previous posts.

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Originally by: Xennith

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amarr use lasers and do mostly ____ damage.
galente use hybrids and do a lot of ____ damage.
minnies use projectiles and do a lot of ____ damage.

caldari use missiles and can do any damage type easily.

fill in the blanks, then hopefully understanding will dawn.

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Quote:

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Kinetic don't work for you? Load Thermal. It don't work? Load explosive. Sh*t hes tanked on that as well? Load EM. Nothing works? Maybe its time for Kitty Online...

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Caldari ships absolutely never used in PvP, that are completely no good for anything:

Rokh
Scorpion
Eagle
Blackbird
Crow
Kitsune
Drake
Flycatcher
Falcon
Rook
Onyx
Leviathan - Hi Oort *waves*

Yep, all totally and utterly useless in PvP.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 17:16:00

Quote:

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Kinetic don't work for you? Load Thermal. It don't work? Load explosive. Sh*t hes tanked on that as well? Load EM. Nothing works? Maybe its time for Kitty Online...

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While all you others get bonus to 2 damage types so you have 50% for your ammo to work, i have 25% chance and when i change from kinetic i lose my damage bonus, so its effectively same as if i had kinetic and maybe worse... Yea so fair!...

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Originally by: CCP kieron

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ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008
Xennith: Then every race should be pick ONE damage...why only caldari had to pick???

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Originally by: Zantrei Kordisin

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Wait, what?

Other races have damage bonuses to multiple damage types when using missiles? Explain.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 17:16:00

Quote:

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Kinetic don't work for you? Load Thermal. It don't work? Load explosive. Sh*t hes tanked on that as well? Load EM. Nothing works? Maybe its time for Kitty Online...

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While all you others get bonus to 2 damage types so you have 50% for your ammo to work, i have 25% chance and when i change from kinetic i lose my damage bonus, so its effectively same as if i had kinetic and maybe worse... Yea so fair!...

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Quote:

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Caldari do primarily Kinetic damage but CAN choose ANY other damage type if they want to.

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Quote:

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See which one does most dmg and then go for it in all launchers. Voila.

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Originally by: Tamia Clant

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Originally by: Lirt

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Not THAT good. Especially with all those armor tankers around.

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You mean the same armor tanks which stack EANM's resulting in kinetic damage being the second best damage type to use?

Kinetic is generally a good damage type. It is good against armor and decent enough against shields, meaning that for the vast majority of targets you won't have to change your damage type due to the kinetic bonus.

If there's a damage type you should be complaining about being ineffective, it's EM, which armor is extremely resistant to due to EANM's, and which shield tankers usually cover with at least a photon scattering field.

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Originally by: Xennith

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Originally by: Lirt

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Here we go again... And nullify the damage bonus i get after days of training??!!

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remind me, which caldari ships have a bonus to only kinetic damage?

caracal, drake, raven, kestral and erm... crow right?

why not try flying something else, the scorpion is made of crystalised win for example.

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AAahahahahhahahhahahhahaaahahahahhahahhahahhahahahhahahhahah hahahhahahahhahah ahaha hahaha hahahh ... i'm breathless now.. aahahahh hahahhah hahahhh

Originally by: Black Scorpio

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AAahahahahhahahhahahhahaaahahahahhahahhahahhahahahhahahhahah hahahhahahahhahah ahaha hahaha hahahh ... i'm breathless now.. aahahahh hahahhah hahahhh

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Quote:

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-Leviathan - 37.5% shield HP bonus, only titan that can do a large amount of damage with normal weapons (7 citadel launchers = melts battleships), best damage type for doomsday.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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Caldari do primarily Kinetic damage but CAN choose ANY other damage type if they want to.

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And lose the damage bonus so you effetcively do same or worse damage. Its been tested!
Yea a smart choice indeed.

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Originally by: Zeba

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Caldari are the missile spammer race. Missiles only do one type of damage and turrets do 2 or 3 in the case of a few projectile ammos. Each race has a damage type associated with it.

Amarr: EM

Minmater: Explosive

Gallente: Thermal

Caldari: Kinetic

Check each races missile spammer ship and you will find those ships are limited to only that single damage type for a bonus.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Anarchyyt: you can say all you guys want, but you still didnt say me a good valid reason why caldari gets only kinetic bonus. Al you say is adapt or play kitty online. Well i already adapted this unfair situation cause im caldari, but i think its time balance it.

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Originally by: Xennith

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Originally by: Lirt

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Xenith: I am not saying kinetic sux, im saying why ONLY kinetic???

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because.

i think giving a bonus to all 4 damage types would be a little unfair, people have to be able to predict what kind of damage they are likely to face and going up against caldari and not having a clue what to expect damage wise would suck from a game design point of view. caldari picked kinetic.

oh. and guristas are weak to kinetic.

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Originally by: Lirt

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Anarchyyt: you can say all you guys want, but you still didnt say me a good valid reason why caldari gets only kinetic bonus. Al you say is adapt or play kitty online. Well i already adapted this unfair situation cause im caldari, but i think its time balance it.

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Because it really isn't unfair. Amazingly enough, there are many times when I am not using Kinetic missiles in my Caldari ships. And often they DO MORE DAMAGE.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 17:40:02

Quote:

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-Leviathan - 37.5% shield HP bonus, only titan that can do a large amount of damage with normal weapons (7 citadel launchers = melts battleships), best damage type for doomsday.

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Now that you mention shield bonus, why shield when it gets bonus doesn't regenerate automatically? Yea and the recharge rate of the shield swhen they are almost full (like when receiving shield bonus) is so high... But nevermind thats another issue..
Also all you mention in your post is that caldari has absurb tanking abilities, although that i dont agree cause armor tanking is better but nvm.
The only damage ship you mention is cerberus and that it wipes out smaller ships.. well lol yea what about other hacs.
Its not like if caldari gets another damage bonus they gonna pwn anyway but it gives you more versatillity... liek the other races.

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Originally by: Xennith

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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AAahahahahhahahhahahhahaaahahahahhahahhahahhahahahhahahhahah hahahhahahahhahah ahaha hahaha hahahh ... i'm breathless now.. aahahahh hahahhah hahahhh

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not a fan of ewar?

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Originally by: MassonA

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Just because you've been given a kinetic bonus doesn't mean you MUST use kinetic missiles.

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Because it really isn't unfair. Amazingly enough, there are many times when I am not using Kinetic missiles in my Caldari ships. And often they DO MORE DAMAGE.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Oh i quite like it but to give it as an example of pure win.. lol... good support maybe.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Originally by: An Anarchyyt

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Because it really isn't unfair. Amazingly enough, there are many times when I am not using Kinetic missiles in my Caldari ships. And often they DO MORE DAMAGE.

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Now imagine the other races that get a bonus also to second damage type...
Also most minmatar missile ships get a rof bonus which means damage bonus to all, and also the sacrilege gets all four types damage bonus.
Only caldari ships are nerfed to kinetic only so its not a missile weapon issue, its a caldari ship issue...

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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Quote:

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Amarr deal ONLY EM/Thermal, Gallente deal ONLY Kinetic/Thermal, Caldari can deal ANY dmg type, And yes, It IS beneficial to switch to a different dmg type sometimes, Even without the bonus.

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Originally by: Zantrei Kordisin

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So, let's take a look at Caldari ships...

Starting from the top.
-Leviathan - 37.5% shield HP bonus, only titan that can do a large amount of damage with normal weapons (7 citadel launchers = melts battleships), best damage type for doomsday.
-Wyvern/Chimera - best carriers/mom's for taking a lot of damage for a short period. Shield tanks are good at that.
-Phoenix - Citadel torps > turrets when attacking BS's and other capital ships. By far.
-Charon - Highest capacity freighter.

-Golem - best PvE ship.
-Widow - imo, one of the best solo ships. Can jam pretty much any targets, and has rof bonuses and an extra missile slot.

-Rokh - Best sniping battleship atm.
-Raven - Best missile BS. With torps is lethal, with precision cruise is good for wiping out support in fleets. Also, best PVE T1 battleship by far.
-Scorpion - Best ECM ship in the game. Absurdly useful in fleets.

-Nighthawk/Vulture - Absurd tanks that need to be nerfed.

-Drake - Best tank of any of the battlecruisers.
-Ferox - actually pretty awesome for sniping frigates.

-Eagle - wipes out frigate, one of the best support HAC's.
-Cerberus - Best missile HAC, insane for killing smaller ships, with very good damage output, and can tank and gank setup at the same time.

-Rook - Best EW recon. Jamming bonuses make it almost as good as the scorpion (same, but one less mid).
-Falcon - great ship to use in combination with other force recons. Love these things.

-Onyx - Best tank of any of the HIC's, tbh.

Actually I'll stop here. Getting bored. Basically, if anything Caldari need a nice big, forceful swing of the nerf bat.

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Originally by: Xennith

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Oh i quite like it but to give it as an example of pure win.. lol... good support maybe.

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scorpions are generally primaried in fights because everybody knows just how much trouble they can be. theres a lot more to winning a fight than DPS.

disagree if you want (and judging by your recent side-splitting, i guess you do).

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Quote:

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Infact, aside from the Nemesis, do any of the Gallente ships with missiles launcher hardpoints actually get a bonus to them?

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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That's great Zantrei, I buy HACs and BCs just so I can kill frigates. Shield tanks - take a lot of damage for short amount of time? and then they die.. awesome feature. Also thank you for explaining the great "Support" and "PvE" role of all the caldari ships you listed above.. it was very entertaining!

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Originally by: Lirt

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Zantrei actually you are a little wrong. Raven is very good for npc because it gets an all damage bonus to missiles, not all caldari ships. And i already said raven is fine exactly because it gets an all damage bonus. Imba because of that bonus? no, then why not put it in all caldari ships?

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Originally by: Zantrei Kordisin

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The simplest way to put it is this. For turret ships, a damage bonus is given as they are confined to primarily one damage type. Caldari get their primary damage type, and an added bonus of having the option to use any other damage type they want. Why is that unbalanced? If anything, it's a bonus that Caldari has over other races.

When other races have the ability to pick and choose their damage types and keep the same level of damage, it will be balanced for Caldari to have it. Right now? I want some of what you are smoking. It must be good.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 17:03:22
Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 17:01:16

Originally by: The Herrick

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I really don't see what the issue is here.

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WHY ONLY KINETIC!

MOS DEF: Or make each race has ONLY 1 damage type? How about that???? You like it? Cause for caldari it wont change much... Then all races will be different just as you like it.

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Originally by: CCP Greyscale

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*moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal*

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Originally by: Zantrei Kordisin

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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That's great Zantrei, I buy HACs and BCs just so I can kill frigates. Shield tanks - take a lot of damage for short amount of time? and then they die.. awesome feature. Also thank you for explaining the great "Support" and "PvE" role of all the caldari ships you listed above.. it was very entertaining!

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If you were a PVPer, you would value those roles. Evidently you are not; in which case why are you arguing? The best mission running/npcing/etc ships are Caldari by far.

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Originally by: Arana Tellen

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 17:03:22
Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 17:01:16

Originally by: The Herrick

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I really don't see what the issue is here.

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WHY ONLY KINETIC!

MOS DEF: Or make each race has ONLY 1 damage type? How about that???? You like it? Cause for caldari it wont change much... Then all races will be different just as you like it.

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Caldari - Kinetit racial damage, THATS why, with caldari its always keeping the options open, even if you sacrifice something for that versitility.

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Quote:

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Caldari - Kinetit racial damage, THATS why, with caldari its always keeping the options open, even if you sacrifice something for that versitility.

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Originally by: Blane Xero

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My attempt to open the OP and his alts eyes.

You are counting caldari missile ships as the entire wing of caldari ships, when people point out the great ships like the Rokh, vulture and eagle you go "so" and ignore them.

Kinetic, on armor, is usually one of the worst stats on most ships after an eanm/hardener tank, (minus gallente ships) but guess what, try taking a minmatar ship to kill a amarr T2 ship like a sacrilege and you get the same problem, same with amarr versus minmatar and gallente versus caldari. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT IN TECH 2 RESISTANCES.

You can swap missiles out, and dont give me the bull**** about losing your missile bonus, because if you lose damage againsrt the opponent why the hell are you complaining, kinetic's single bonus is obviously working for you?

Missiles do the most base damage from any weapon as it is, hence you usually get speed/precision/explosion velocity/ROF bonuses.

Turrets are the same, only a few ships get a DAMAGE bonus, we usually get an ROF/accuracy bonus of some form, and for the most part we CANNOT change our damage types (minmatar being the only exception)

You are treating different missiles like we treat different ammo, to gain a different advantage, YOUR advantage is being able to swap to ANY ammo type meaning my settup thats heavy kinetic low explosive tanked you could swap to explosive like someone else suggested AND STILL DO MORE DAMAGE REGARDLESS.

If caldari had 2 damage types with a full up damage bonus to both types, it wouldnt be the same as other races as one primary damage and one lesser, secondary damage, you would have TWO PRIMARY DAMAGES. which makes them the hardest ships to tank against because we need to have at least 50% of our tank completely covered to a higher ammount than against another races ship.

Also, in fleets anti-frigate/cruiser support is probably the most valuable, with intercepters being fast and still doing damage is valuable, sniper ships needing to do damage at the highest range they can, ewar ships needing to have the maximum effect they can, (Hint, ECM is probably one of the single most valuable versions of ewar due to the fact it shuts down almost all of an enemies damage, I.e FoF MISSILES and DRONES being the only things that keep any damage, drones being vulnerable to smartbombs/normal weapons and defenders being the ONLY counter to FoFs.)

Caldari are far from useless just because they only get a bonus to one missile type, and its obviously not bad if when you swap your damage you are doing more with your kinetic, it just shows, CCP GAVE CALDARI THE RIGHT DAMAGE TYPE FOR MISSILES.

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Originally by: Blane Xero

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My attempt to open the OP and his alts eyes.

You are counting caldari missile ships as the entire wing of caldari ships, when people point out the great ships like the Rokh, vulture and eagle you go "so" and ignore them.

Kinetic, on armor, is usually one of the worst stats on most ships after an eanm/hardener tank, (minus gallente ships) but guess what, try taking a minmatar ship to kill a amarr T2 ship like a sacrilege and you get the same problem, same with amarr versus minmatar and gallente versus caldari. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT IN TECH 2 RESISTANCES.

You can swap missiles out, and dont give me the bull**** about losing your missile bonus, because if you lose damage againsrt the opponent why the hell are you complaining, kinetic's single bonus is obviously working for you?

Missiles do the most base damage from any weapon as it is, hence you usually get speed/precision/explosion velocity/ROF bonuses.

Turrets are the same, only a few ships get a DAMAGE bonus, we usually get an ROF/accuracy bonus of some form, and for the most part we CANNOT change our damage types (minmatar being the only exception)

You are treating different missiles like we treat different ammo, to gain a different advantage, YOUR advantage is being able to swap to ANY ammo type meaning my settup thats heavy kinetic low explosive tanked you could swap to explosive like someone else suggested AND STILL DO MORE DAMAGE REGARDLESS.

If caldari had 2 damage types with a full up damage bonus to both types, it wouldnt be the same as other races as one primary damage and one lesser, secondary damage, you would have TWO PRIMARY DAMAGES. which makes them the hardest ships to tank against because we need to have at least 50% of our tank completely covered to a higher ammount than against another races ship.

Also, in fleets anti-frigate/cruiser support is probably the most valuable, with intercepters being fast and still doing damage is valuable, sniper ships needing to do damage at the highest range they can, ewar ships needing to have the maximum effect they can, (Hint, ECM is probably one of the single most valuable versions of ewar due to the fact it shuts down almost all of an enemies damage, I.e FoF MISSILES and DRONES being the only things that keep any damage, drones being vulnerable to smartbombs/normal weapons and defenders being the ONLY counter to FoFs.)

Caldari are far from useless just because they only get a bonus to one missile type, and its obviously not bad if when you swap your damage you are doing more with your kinetic, it just shows, CCP GAVE CALDARI THE RIGHT DAMAGE TYPE FOR MISSILES.

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Quote:

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If caldari had 2 damage types with a full up damage bonus to both types, it wouldnt be the same as other races as one primary damage and one lesser, secondary damage, you would have TWO PRIMARY DAMAGES. which makes them the hardest ships to tank against because we need to have at least 50% of our tank completely covered to a higher ammount than against another races ship.

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Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh

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Go train for the Typhoon and then come back complaining about damage bonus type.

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Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh

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Originally by: Blane Xero

---

My attempt to open the OP and his alts eyes.

You are counting caldari missile ships as the entire wing of caldari ships, when people point out the great ships like the Rokh, vulture and eagle you go "so" and ignore them.

Kinetic, on armor, is usually one of the worst stats on most ships after an eanm/hardener tank, (minus gallente ships) but guess what, try taking a minmatar ship to kill a amarr T2 ship like a sacrilege and you get the same problem, same with amarr versus minmatar and gallente versus caldari. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT IN TECH 2 RESISTANCES.

You can swap missiles out, and dont give me the bull**** about losing your missile bonus, because if you lose damage againsrt the opponent why the hell are you complaining, kinetic's single bonus is obviously working for you?

Missiles do the most base damage from any weapon as it is, hence you usually get speed/precision/explosion velocity/ROF bonuses.

Turrets are the same, only a few ships get a DAMAGE bonus, we usually get an ROF/accuracy bonus of some form, and for the most part we CANNOT change our damage types (minmatar being the only exception)

You are treating different missiles like we treat different ammo, to gain a different advantage, YOUR advantage is being able to swap to ANY ammo type meaning my settup thats heavy kinetic low explosive tanked you could swap to explosive like someone else suggested AND STILL DO MORE DAMAGE REGARDLESS.

If caldari had 2 damage types with a full up damage bonus to both types, it wouldnt be the same as other races as one primary damage and one lesser, secondary damage, you would have TWO PRIMARY DAMAGES. which makes them the hardest ships to tank against because we need to have at least 50% of our tank completely covered to a higher ammount than against another races ship.

Also, in fleets anti-frigate/cruiser support is probably the most valuable, with intercepters being fast and still doing damage is valuable, sniper ships needing to do damage at the highest range they can, ewar ships needing to have the maximum effect they can, (Hint, ECM is probably one of the single most valuable versions of ewar due to the fact it shuts down almost all of an enemies damage, I.e FoF MISSILES and DRONES being the only things that keep any damage, drones being vulnerable to smartbombs/normal weapons and defenders being the ONLY counter to FoFs.)

Caldari are far from useless just because they only get a bonus to one missile type, and its obviously not bad if when you swap your damage you are doing more with your kinetic, it just shows, CCP GAVE CALDARI THE RIGHT DAMAGE TYPE FOR MISSILES.

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This.

And since the beginning of the game people have been noticing one thing : Caldari = EVE on easy mode.

Now that does not apply to all Caldari ships, but i notice a huge lack in skillpoints in most caldari BS pilots i know. Missile only so no skills to use the Rokh etc. All just very "I want the big ship with missiles" mentality.

Besides Caldari get the best Damagetype of all : ECM

Go train for the Typhoon and then come back complaining about damage bonus type.

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Quote:

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My attempt to open the OP and his alts eyes.

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Quote:

---

Now that does not apply to all Caldari ships, but i notice a huge lack in skillpoints in most caldari BS pilots i know. Missile only so no skills to use the Rokh etc. All just very "I want the big ship with missiles" mentality.

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Quote:

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Missiles don't suffer from tracking penalties or falloff percentages, the tradeoff for this is lower average DPS and damage lag time. The percieved unfairness may be that tracking can be overcome with webs, and falloff can be eliminated by setting the right range, but with missiles you can't make them go any faster or hit harder through tactical flying.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Ufff, another know it all in this game. First of all friend, most caldari pilots did not have skills out right to fly rokhs is that because by the time this race had anything else besides moas and eagles to fit guns on, most people had trained misiles.

People (maybe probably excluding you) do not have ships with misiles mentality, it's only in movies and maybe in your head too.. actually obviously it's there.. :P

ECM? hahahhah.. train for Caldari then, pal.. why not? i am crosstraining for obvious reasons, why not you? I am specced for your Typhoon, it's not that hard, not every pilot you talk with a Caldari avatar flies drakes and caracals only you know..

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Quote:

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Every race has a damage type bias in their main weapon systems. Amarr Lasers: EM, Gall Drones: Therm, Minni Projectile: Explosive, Caldari Hybrids and Missiles: Kinetic.

(Hybrids are the oddball because they're shared by both Gall and Caldari.)

Most of these bonuses are inherent to their weapon systems, but missiles are different in that they come through the ship bonuses, most notably in the case of Caldari, though not exclusively.

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Quote:

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The only thing you are focusing on is the con os having on some ships a focused damage bonus which only a few ships get btw, Caracal and Drake as far as i can remember for t1 ships, could be a 2 to 3 more if you count in t2 versions.

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Originally by: Zeba

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Kinetic is a good damagetype to be honest.

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Indeed. It could be much worse. You could be stuck with EM like Amarr.

Shields down! oh wait.. did we just hit a brick wall?

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Originally by: Lirt

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Whip: for turrets all ships get a damage bonus (but turrets do 2 types of damage so if one damage is tanked heavily you do the other type and maybe counter it that way).
Missile ships ONLY for caldari get kinetic only so if kinetic is tanked heavily, yes you can change ammo type but you gonna lsoe your bonus so it isn't 100% that you will do more damage... while with turrets you still get the bonsu to your second damage type.

Now about missile ships non-caldari, minmatar get rof bonus which is like dmg bonus, so in the end a dmg bonus to all types. That comes in contrast of what you say about missiles, amarr missile ships get more than one, sacrilege gets bonus for all types, again in contrast about what you say for missiles and race damage.

Race damages are as i posted them in my first post:
Amarr damage------------EM/Thermal
Gallente damage---------Thermal/Kinetic
Minmatar damage---------All
Caldari damage----------Kinetic ONLY

Dont you think something is unfair here?

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Originally by: Lirt

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Every one of you know this is an issue, you jsut dont admit it cause you dont want caldari tog et buffed. You only want your race to get buffed and others get nerfed.

I'll put it you down to this:

Sacrilege vs Cerberus, explain to me the difference in the damage bonus and i will stop.

Btw its not only sacrilege, its other amarr missile ships as well and all minmatar missile ships. Just a random choice.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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The only thing you are focusing on is the con os having on some ships a focused damage bonus which only a few ships get btw, Caracal and Drake as far as i can remember for t1 ships, could be a 2 to 3 more if you count in t2 versions.

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caracal, drake, nightmare, hawk, crow, phoenix, rook, cerberus and maybe i miss some.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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Every race has a damage type bias in their main weapon systems. Amarr Lasers: EM, Gall Drones: Therm, Minni Projectile: Explosive, Caldari Hybrids and Missiles: Kinetic.

(Hybrids are the oddball because they're shared by both Gall and Caldari.)

Most of these bonuses are inherent to their weapon systems, but missiles are different in that they come through the ship bonuses, most notably in the case of Caldari, though not exclusively.

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Yes i agree, with the only difference that:
amarr gets thermal too, gallente gets kinetic too, minmatar gets all the other 3 types too. caldari only kinetic.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Race damages are as i posted them in my first post:
Amarr damage------------EM/Thermal
Gallente damage---------Thermal/Kinetic
Minmatar damage---------All
Caldari damage----------Kinetic ONLY

Dont you think something is unfair here?

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Quote:

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Missiles:
Amarr damage------------EM
Gallente damage---------Thermal
Minmatar damage---------Explosive
Caldari damage----------Kinetic

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Originally by: Lirt

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Missiles:
Amarr damage------------All (sacrilege, yes only ham but perfect in that weapon type)
Gallente damage---------Thermal (you talking about the bomber, the only gallente missile ship?)
Minmatar damage---------All (rof bonus)
Caldari damage----------Kinetic

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Originally by: Lirt

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Whip explain sacrilege and minmatar ships that get rof to missiles which is a dmg bonus to all liek the raven.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Arkios you forget that 10% dmg bonus has only the crow and rof bonus only the raven. I already said the raven is fine and the crow gets 10% dmg bonus cause it doens't get another bonus for caldari frigate level, so instead of 2 bonuses it gets one doubled.

You want kinetic only for caldari ships? Ok make all caldari missile ships with a 10% dmg bonus to kinetic.

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Quote:

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skewed towards explosive.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:00:28
Brodde: Only 1 exception, the raven, and i already said numerous times that i agree its fine.

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Originally by: Arkios Odymei

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I'll go with all Missile Racial damage bonuses changed to 10%. That goes for all racial missile damage bonuse, not just caldari's.

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Quote:

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I agree it would be fine to change the missiles so they do different amounts of damage for each type and then change the caldari missile ships bonus to a plain 5% damage bonus.

How about starting with kinetic missiles do same as today, and then let thermal do 80% as much, then explosive at 65% and at last EM with 51% of the kinetic missiles damage.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:07:16

Quote:

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skewed towards explosive.

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The key phrase of all you say, skewed, not restricted.

Solutions are many, you can give 5% to kinetic and 2,5% to explosive missile damage or 2,5% to all others like kestrel for caldari, like the turrets that get lower damage to the second type.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Tsanse you do LESS dmg to the second type, you dont do only one damage type.
And yes i read the post.

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Quote:

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I agree it would be fine to change the missiles so they do different amounts of damage for each type and then change the caldari missile ships bonus to a plain 5% damage bonus.

How about starting with kinetic missiles do same as today, and then let thermal do 80% as much, then explosive at 65% and at last EM with 51% of the kinetic missiles damage.

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Quote:

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Solutions are many, you can give 5% to kinetic and 2,5% to explosive missile damage or 2,5% to all others like kestrel for caldari, like the turrets that get lower damage to the second type.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Every one of you know this is an issue, you jsut dont admit it cause you dont want caldari tog et buffed. You only want your race to get buffed and others get nerfed.

I'll put it you down to this:

Sacrilege vs Cerberus, explain to me the difference in the damage bonus and i will stop.

Btw its not only sacrilege, its other amarr missile ships as well and all minmatar missile ships. Just a random choice.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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Kinetic don't work for you? Load Thermal. It don't work? Load explosive. Sh*t hes tanked on that as well? Load EM. Nothing works? Maybe its time for Kitty Online...

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While all you others get bonus to 2 damage types so you have 50% for your ammo to work, i have 25% chance and when i change from kinetic i lose my damage bonus, so its effectively same as if i had kinetic and maybe worse... Yea so fair!...

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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more than Caldari is for kinetic / thermal.

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Caldari missile boats are kinetic only not thermal, unlike minmatar missile boats for example.

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Originally by: Lirt

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These ships i mention are the only missile ships like gallente bomber and sacrilege. Ok amarr have the bomber also, but those arenot exceptions, they are the most part of missile boats of those races.
Caldari have many missile boats and only raven gets rof bonus. Why not give rof bonsu instead of kinetic dmg bonus?

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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I agree it would be fine to change the missiles so they do different amounts of damage for each type and then change the caldari missile ships bonus to a plain 5% damage bonus.

How about starting with kinetic missiles do same as today, and then let thermal do 80% as much, then explosive at 65% and at last EM with 51% of the kinetic missiles damage.

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Yes this is a nice idea.

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Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh

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This would become 5% like the weapon bonuses, not the beefed up extra 10% due to teh fact that it is a focused one.

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Quote:

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caracal, drake, nightmare, hawk, crow, phoenix, rook, cerberus

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Originally by: Brodde Dim

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Also, the idea that you liked would limit the damage types of the Caldari missile boats even more.

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Quote:

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usually get a double damage bonus with one being kinetic.

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Originally by: Lirt

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You mean crow?...

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:30:01
Gnulpie: read whole thread before posting, you sound silly. Some ideas have been posted that dont give 100% dmg bonus.

Zantrei: first sacrilege also get rof bonus, sacrilege gets only hams yes but still with the cerberus you will use one weapon type also not 2 at the same time. Yes with cerberus you can choose type but the whole point is that with hams both, the cerberus might get a range bonus but the sacrilege gets a resistance bonus and can do full dmg on all dmg types.

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Quote:

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All of your reasons have been countered, all you are doing now is nitpicking about things that really aren't important.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Blane Xero

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My attempt to open the OP and his alts eyes.

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I respect you as a forum poster although you don't share that with other people..

Since all that you said was a lot of babble, that's based on you not reading any of the posts, or trying to understand what the OP is requesting, I am just going to ask you one question. When is the last time you flew a Kinetic fitted Caldari boat in PvP? Oh, sorry sorry, I'll ask you another one, have you ever flown a Kinetic misile fitted Caldari boat in PvP?

Since you are so ardently making your point, i think we should limit the MK2 ships line to 5% EM misile damage bonus only. It's only fair. What do you think?

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Quote:

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have you seen how little base damage heavy assault missiles have?

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 20:30:01
Gnulpie: read whole thread before posting, you sound silly. Some ideas have been posted that dont give 100% dmg bonus.

Zantrei: first sacrilege also get rof bonus, sacrilege gets only hams yes but still with the cerberus you will use one weapon type also not 2 at the same time. Yes with cerberus you can choose type but the whole point is that with hams both, the cerberus might get a range bonus but the sacrilege gets a resistance bonus and can do full dmg on all dmg types.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Wtf are you talking about Whip, turret hardpoints?? Yea and you as amarr have turret hardpoints to put hybrid then, why you want laser buff? Also even with turrets you still dont get dmg bonus which is like changing ammo in missiles so kinetic argument still applies.

Now about the rof bonus, (i guess thats what you mean double dmg bonus) thats actually NOT a double dmg bonus, its rof for all types and a kinetic only dmg bonus so it still restricts you to kinetic. kinetic argument still applies.

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Quote:

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My point is that there isn't a single Caldari ship that is strictly limited to kinetic. Even the missile boats you point out as your examples can fit turrets to give them kinetic / thermal profiles which is exactly what every other race has to deal with. Even then you can switch out your missiles to something else and you lose only the kinetic bonus but keep the ROF bonus (that's called a double damage bonus, one for ROF and one for damage).

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Originally by: Zeba

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5 pages eh? Thats quite a Talent you have there Lirt.

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Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Ufff, another know it all in this game. First of all friend, most caldari pilots did not have skills out right to fly rokhs is that because by the time this race had anything else besides moas and eagles to fit guns on, most people had trained misiles.

People (maybe probably excluding you) do not have ships with misiles mentality, it's only in movies and maybe in your head too.. actually obviously it's there.. :P

ECM? hahahhah.. train for Caldari then, pal.. why not? i am crosstraining for obvious reasons, why not you? I am specced for your Typhoon, it's not that hard, not every pilot you talk with a Caldari avatar flies drakes and caracals only you know..

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Takes one to know one aye ?

Then why are you complaining? You should know not everything in the game is exactly the same. More even because only missile ships get the 'shaft' you are refering to which you dont fly at all, as your flying a Typhoon as theyre 'not that hard to train for'.

Start 2 characters, noobs, train one for the Raven the other for the Typhoon, see which one would be usefull soloing a lvl 4 mission faster. Heck why not, train them up for usefullness in a 5 man pvp gang without a doubt every time, the Caldari would be usefull in their tier 2 Bs faster than Minmatar in their tier 1.

Every race has its pro's and con's, The only thing you are focusing on is the con os having on some ships a focused damage bonus which only a few ships get btw, Caracal and Drake as far as i can remember for t1 ships, could be a 2 to 3 more if you count in t2 versions. I am not even bothered to check which ones those are and even if they have actualy only one bonus. (kestrel has multiple for example).

Caldari ain't absolutely useless due to 2 to 5 ships having a biased focused damage bonus, lots of ships have silly bonuses acording to the people with their skilltree leaning towards that race. Learn to live with it.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Caldari are stuck with kinetic ONLY!

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Quote:

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125% more damage than unbonused kinetic missiles today. (Just like todays ships)
100% thermal damage (just like todays ships)
80% explosive damage (20% less than today)
64% EM damage (ehrm 36% less than today)

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Quote:

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No need for tracking
No need for optimal range(you have a max range only)
No difference to the damage amount between the missile max range and the minimum.

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Originally by: Arkios Odymei

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Originally by: Brodde Dim

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Explanation:

With a 5% damage per level bonus for all types of missiles, and new missiles that do 100% for kin, 80% for thermal, 64% for Exp, and 51% for EM, the ships would do:

125% more damage than unbonused kinetic missiles today. (Just like todays ships)
100% thermal damage (just like todays ships)
80% explosive damage (20% less than today)
64% EM damage (ehrm 36% less than today)

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This would actualy be a nerf to the current missile system for all missile ships and would not help any ships with a 5% racial damage bonus in any way.

Also note that this is how drones currently are. Diversity in weapon systems is a good thing. Lets try to keep it.

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Originally by: Brodde Dim

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Originally by: Lirt

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Race damages are as i posted them in my first post:
Amarr damage------------EM/Thermal
Gallente damage---------Thermal/Kinetic
Minmatar damage---------All
Caldari damage----------Kinetic ONLY

Dont you think something is unfair here?

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Not really. You are not seeing the big picture.

You are comparing 3 races turret bonuses to Caldari missile bonus for some ships. If you wanted to be correct there would be 3 lists:

Turrets:
Amarr damage------------EM/Thermal
Gallente damage---------Thermal/Kinetic
Minmatar damage---------All kinds
Caldari damage----------Kinetic/Thermal

Missiles:
Amarr damage------------EM
Gallente damage---------Thermal
Minmatar damage---------Explosive
Caldari damage----------Kinetic

Drones:
Amarr damage------------EM
Gallente damage---------Thermal
Minmatar damage---------Explosive
Caldari damage----------Kinetic

And you might want to argue that Caldari have more ships that use missiles than the other races, but that is drawback for the others and not a Caldari short coming.

Same thing with the drone ships. Gallente have more drone specialized ships than the other 3 races, and very few (like the helios) have a race specific drone damage bonus. But the drones themselfs have a built in damage bonus, and by not using thermal drones you sacrifice a huge deal of the dps.

There will allways be times where it is a better strategy to change damage type, even if you lose some of your DPS potential. Maybe it is because of the enemies resists or the targets velocity or the range, either way you will sometimes have to adapt.

The only race that are a bit out of luck is Amarr, since they dont really have a choice of damage types unless they fly cruiser or smaller ships.

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Quote:

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Step 1:
Buy a box of kleenex
Step 2:
Train another race
step 3:
Live happily ever after!

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Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh

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Originally by: Arkios Odymei

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I'll go with all Missile Racial damage bonuses changed to 10%. That goes for all racial missile damage bonuse, not just caldari's.

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This would become 5% like the weapon bonuses, not the beefed up extra 10% due to teh fact that it is a focused one.

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Quote:

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Now if the lower damage missiles had insane velocity, smaller explosion radius and higher explosion velocity/falloff we would be in business.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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No need for tracking
No need for optimal range(you have a max range only)
No difference to the damage amount between the missile max range and the minimum.

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Again this is not a missile issue, its a caldari ship issue.

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Originally by: Zantrei Kordisin

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Originally by: Lirt

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Every one of you know this is an issue, you jsut dont admit it cause you dont want caldari tog et buffed. You only want your race to get buffed and others get nerfed.

I'll put it you down to this:

Sacrilege vs Cerberus, explain to me the difference in the damage bonus and i will stop.

Btw its not only sacrilege, its other amarr missile ships as well and all minmatar missile ships. Just a random choice.

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Actually, in your case you are just trying to get Caldari buffed when it isn't needed. I personally have characters specced in all races, and Caldari is FAR from needing a boost.

Sacrilege vs Cerberus? Sacrilege is designed for short range, hence damage bonus for only heavy assault launchers, and note that the Sacrilege only has two (2) missile bonuses.

Then take the Cerberus. Kinetic damage bonus for ALL types of missile. Not just heavy assaults, no - heavy missiles, light missiles, the whole works. That's pretty decent. Even turret ships only get bonuses for a certain size of turret. Then, flight time bonus of 10%, and 10% speed bonus. That's basically two optimal range bonuses. Nice. Then, on top of all that, you have a nice little rate of fire bonus to top it off.

So, when using kinetic missiles, the Cerberus can use heavy assault missiles with the same damage, from TWICE the range, with slightly less damage from other missile damage types (but the range makes up for it); and it is superior with all other kinds of missile (heavy missiles, lights, etc).



Is this getting through to you yet?

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Originally by: Gnulpie

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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Kinetic don't work for you? Load Thermal. It don't work? Load explosive. Sh*t hes tanked on that as well? Load EM. Nothing works? Maybe its time for Kitty Online...

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While all you others get bonus to 2 damage types so you have 50% for your ammo to work, i have 25% chance and when i change from kinetic i lose my damage bonus, so its effectively same as if i had kinetic and maybe worse... Yea so fair!...

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Waaaa Waaaaa - cry me a river.

If you don't want kinetic damage bonus on your ships then fly some other ship. LOOOOL

I'm quite content that I can chose between the ships and bonus types. And did it ever occur to you that you can do with missiles 100% the damage type you want to do? With turrets you almost always have some other, less efficient damage type as well. So... go ahead and do some calculations.

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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more than Caldari is for kinetic / thermal.

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Caldari missile boats are kinetic only not thermal, unlike minmatar missile boats for example.

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Most Caldari ships can fit a couple turrets or drones. Even when the only weapon platform is missiles (think cerberus) they usually get a double damage bonus with one being kinetic. This encourages kinetic usage to go with that racial damage idea but switching to another type doesn't negate all the bonuses of the ship.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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more than Caldari is for kinetic / thermal.

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Caldari missile boats are kinetic only not thermal, unlike minmatar missile boats for example.

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Most Caldari ships can fit a couple turrets or drones. Even when the only weapon platform is missiles (think cerberus) they usually get a double damage bonus with one being kinetic. This encourages kinetic usage to go with that racial damage idea but switching to another type doesn't negate all the bonuses of the ship.

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Cerberus with guns, i have yet to see one..

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Quote:

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caracal, drake, nightmare, hawk, crow, phoenix, rook, cerberus

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Caracal: 2 turret hardpoints, drone bay. kinetic only argument doesn't apply
Drake: drone bay (5 lights, thermal highest dps drone). kinetic only argument doesn't apply.
nightmare: lol wrong ship
nighthawk: multiple damage bonuses. only one bonus is kinetic only. turret hardpoint and drones. kinetic only argument doesn't apply
hawk: turret hardpoints. kinetic only argument doesn't apply
crow: turret hardpoints. kinetic only argument doesn't apply
phoenix: multiple damage bonus. only one is kinetic. drone bay. turret hardpoint. kinetic only argument doesn't apply
rook: turret hardpoints. ewar ship. kinetic only argument doesn't apply.
cerberus: multiple damage bonuses. only one is kinetic. kinetic only argument doesn't apply

Which ships exactly are we discussing?

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Quote:

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caracal, drake, nightmare, hawk, crow, phoenix, rook, cerberus

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Caracal: 2 turret hardpoints, drone bay. kinetic only argument doesn't apply
Drake: drone bay (5 lights, thermal highest dps drone). kinetic only argument doesn't apply.
nightmare: lol wrong ship
nighthawk: multiple damage bonuses. only one bonus is kinetic only. turret hardpoint and drones. kinetic only argument doesn't apply
hawk: turret hardpoints. kinetic only argument doesn't apply
crow: turret hardpoints. kinetic only argument doesn't apply
phoenix: multiple damage bonus. only one is kinetic. drone bay. turret hardpoint. kinetic only argument doesn't apply
rook: turret hardpoints. ewar ship. kinetic only argument doesn't apply.
cerberus: multiple damage bonuses. only one is kinetic. kinetic only argument doesn't apply

Which ships exactly are we discussing?

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Drone bay on the Caracal

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh

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Originally by: Arkios Odymei

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I'll go with all Missile Racial damage bonuses changed to 10%. That goes for all racial missile damage bonuse, not just caldari's.

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This would become 5% like the weapon bonuses, not the beefed up extra 10% due to teh fact that it is a focused one.

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How about 5% bonus to kinetic and thermal misiles bonuses for Caldari? That sound fair Ssoraszh?

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Bravo.

Best troll I've seen in some time. I'm stepping out of this thread now. It was a boost Caldari thread; why did I bother.

Lirt
Ceratias Holboelli

Ceratias Holboelli: Kr°yer's deep sea angler fish

It's one of those fishes with the bioluminescent "lures" off the top of its head. You could say the fish trolls around and lures other fish in with its inbuilt bait and then devours them. It's also a parasitic fish.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Bravo.

Best troll I've seen in some time. I'm stepping out of this thread now. It was a boost Caldari thread; why did I bother.

Lirt
Ceratias Holboelli

Ceratias Holboelli: Kr°yer's deep sea angler fish

It's one of those fishes with the bioluminescent "lures" off the top of its head. You could say the fish trolls around and lures other fish in with its inbuilt bait and then devours them. It's also a parasitic fish.

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Good, finally the real troll drops off.. when you have something better to say than "but but but caldari misile ships have 1-2 turret slots too, so your argument for only 5% to kinetic only misiles doesn't apply" please do come back.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 21:12:44
Mithrandir: Im talking about other missile ships like minmatar ones that despite the use of missiles they get rof bonus (dmg bonus to all types).

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 21:04:35
Arkios: Sacrilege, perfect with hams
Cerberus, medium with many
...

And caldari supposed to be the superior missile users...Why use HM when you are perfect with HAMs? range? why? just setup your ship to get close...

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Originally by: Lirt

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But caldari whatever weapon they choose they have to use kinetic? but what if the enemy is heavily tanked in kinetic? what can you do to change that? tell him to disable his kinetic hardeners?

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Originally by: Wet Ferret

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That's not how drones are. Drones make tradeoffs for their lower damage modifiers. With the exception of EM drones, drones are just fine with those tradeoffs.

Now if the lower damage missiles had insane velocity, smaller explosion radius and higher explosion velocity/falloff we would be in business.

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Quote:

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Every weapon system has its upsides and its downsides, Caldari and Gallente are very much the same in a few ways... They both 50/50 between their two weapon systems, caldari its missiles and hybrids, gallente its hybrids and drones.

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 21:12:44
Mithrandir: Im talking about other missile ships like minmatar ones that despite the use of missiles they get rof bonus (dmg bonus to all types).

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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more than Caldari is for kinetic / thermal.

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Caldari missile boats are kinetic only not thermal, unlike minmatar missile boats for example.

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Most Caldari ships can fit a couple turrets or drones. Even when the only weapon platform is missiles (think cerberus) they usually get a double damage bonus with one being kinetic. This encourages kinetic usage to go with that racial damage idea but switching to another type doesn't negate all the bonuses of the ship.

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Cerberus with guns, i have yet to see one..

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Wow, I just had to comment on this. My sentence "even when the only weapon is missiles as in the cerberus". How you read it: "the cerberus has turrets."

You guys a stretching it a bit. Original ploy was clever.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Originally by: Lirt

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Quote:

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more than Caldari is for kinetic / thermal.

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Caldari missile boats are kinetic only not thermal, unlike minmatar missile boats for example.

---

Most Caldari ships can fit a couple turrets or drones. Even when the only weapon platform is missiles (think cerberus) they usually get a double damage bonus with one being kinetic. This encourages kinetic usage to go with that racial damage idea but switching to another type doesn't negate all the bonuses of the ship.

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Cerberus with guns, i have yet to see one..

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Wow, I just had to comment on this. My sentence "even when the only weapon is missiles as in the cerberus". How you read it: "the cerberus has turrets."

You guys a stretching it a bit. Original ploy was clever.

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I thought you went away so i dropped my guard for a bit.. you backstabbing troll

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Quote:

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The Cerb also gets 2 bonuses to range, while the Sac gets bonuses to tank and cap. Obviously Cerb is a Longer range boat.....

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Quote:

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But Gallente (or Amarr or Minmatar) whatever weapon they choose they have to use Kin/Therm? but what if the enemy is heavily tanked in kin/therm (or Em/Thrm or Exp/Kin)? what can you do to change that? tell him to disable his hardeners?

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Thermal Drones do most damage, then Kinetic, then Explosive, then EM. Now you think about which Damage Type you will find most usefull. Simple as that.

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Originally by: Blane Xero

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Ok, for the single last time.

- There are no caldari ships that are entirely limited to kinetic, its just your mindset limits you to kinetic.

- There are alot of ships that can load up railguns and do well in doing so.

- Something you might relate to, Turret based ships sacrifice damage / range / amount of ammo in the gun, to change range/damage and for T2 ammo some things like tracking. Where as missiles always use the same amount of room in the gun, always do the same range (exception being T2 ammo where fury/javelin sacrifice range for damage and damage for range with penalties to speed/cap usage)


Every weapon system has its upsides and its downsides, Caldari and Gallente are very much the same in a few ways... They both 50/50 between their two weapon systems, caldari its missiles and hybrids, gallente its hybrids and drones.

You my friend just need to learn to balance bonus with tradeoff, if you simply give all caldari missile ships a bonus to every missile type, your missile ships no longer need to worry about changing ammo for different ranges, they also don't need to worry about whether kinetic will be better or if you tradeoff the extra damage to do a little more damage with EM/Therm/Explosive.

Your suggestion of giving even thermal a lesser bonus or giving all missile ships an ROF bonus is largely uneeded, as what do we do with the ships that already have an ROF bonus?, increase it?. Kestrel/drake/caracal are the only ships which use missiles specifically that don't already have an ROF bonus in place aswell, and kestrel already has 5% more damage to the three other missiles.

if you give them a bigger ROF bonus i ask you to remove kinetics damage bonus, and if you give them a bonus to al three extra missile types (or even one) you remove the ROF bonus of any ships that are getting the uniform damage bonus. So guess what, your kinetic missiles will be doing less damage.

You cannot have the best of everything, you want to do great damage for all damage types with good rof's and pretty-much unchallanged range, oh i know, why don't you give heavy missiles a 40km cap, standard missiles a 15km cap and cruise a 80km cap, its only fair, you want one of the bonuses turrets have, that you adopt some of the penalties, one such penalty is range.

Oh i know, why don't we introduce new T1 missile types, longer ranged-less damaging, lower range less damaging, and all that, and just scrub Rockets/Hams/Torps completely.

Also if your stupid and haven't caught on yet, i'm pointing out that all weapon types have different things that make some people chose them over different types, Minmatar have lower range / higher falloff, or higher damage / slower ROF types.

Caldari and gallente are the only races thats weapon system works as well at 30km as it does at 5km for example, thats what makes missiles unique One of the penalties for such a valuable attribute is you only get one bonused damage type.

Oh another reason for the sacrilege's uniform damage bonus is normal T1 HAM range sucks, i believe you get about 15-20km maximum compared to 120km or so with heavy missiles with max skills.

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Brode, your skills at twisting the point are gigantic, .. it's a drawback to the other races they don't have more misile ships.. whoa.. well in any case from your list above, the Misile list is what the OP is talking about, and the fact that the misile ships (i'd say the majority of Caldari ships) are limited to an only kinetic misile bonus. This is not in line with any other race when its ships use misiles. Check the stats again (ok except maybe the stealth bombers).

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Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Ssoraszh Tzarszh

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Originally by: Arkios Odymei

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I'll go with all Missile Racial damage bonuses changed to 10%. That goes for all racial missile damage bonuse, not just caldari's.

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This would become 5% like the weapon bonuses, not the beefed up extra 10% due to teh fact that it is a focused one.

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How about 5% bonus to kinetic and thermal misiles bonuses for Caldari? That sound fair Ssoraszh?

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Nice, you quote only to discredit ?

5% would be to ALL damage types as weapons get the same bonus, 10% to Kin AND Therm is kinda werd considering it would mean basicly a third bonus for t1 and a fifth for t2.

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This bonus does indeed take all damage types, but with 4 missile points its hardly the all out missile boat you make it out to be

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Bravo.

Best troll I've seen in some time. I'm stepping out of this thread now. It was a boost Caldari thread; why did I bother.

Lirt
Ceratias Holboelli

Ceratias Holboelli: Kr°yer's deep sea angler fish

It's one of those fishes with the bioluminescent "lures" off the top of its head. You could say the fish trolls around and lures other fish in with its inbuilt bait and then devours them. It's also a parasitic fish.

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Good, finally the real troll drops off.. when you have something better to say than "but but but caldari misile ships have 1-2 turret slots too, so your argument for only 5% to kinetic only misiles doesn't apply" please do come back.

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I love you too. That's a great paraphrasing of everything I've said.

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Originally by: Atomos Darksun

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What's the difference between an alt poster and a leech?

One is a blood sucking parasite, the other is a leech.

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Quote:

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STFU noob.

Caldari are the ONLY race that can actively choose what damage type to use, NOBODY else gets this.

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Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra

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Originally by: Lirt

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Edited by: Lirt on 04/03/2008 21:12:44
Mithrandir: Im talking about other missile ships like minmatar ones that despite the use of missiles they get rof bonus (dmg bonus to all types).

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Minmatar take a ROF bonus because their damage is pitiful in general. Thus they have to be able to do something in the field of battle.

Or they shouldn't have a chance for the glory of the Caldari nation?

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Whip Slagcheek

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Bravo.

Best troll I've seen in some time. I'm stepping out of this thread now. It was a boost Caldari thread; why did I bother.

Lirt
Ceratias Holboelli

Ceratias Holboelli: Kr°yer's deep sea angler fish

It's one of those fishes with the bioluminescent "lures" off the top of its head. You could say the fish trolls around and lures other fish in with its inbuilt bait and then devours them. It's also a parasitic fish.

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Good, finally the real troll drops off.. when you have something better to say than "but but but caldari misile ships have 1-2 turret slots too, so your argument for only 5% to kinetic only misiles doesn't apply" please do come back.

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I love you too. That's a great paraphrasing of everything I've said.

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You should have asked me in the beginning, could have saved you all the wear and tear on your keyboard...

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Originally by: Black Scorpio

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Originally by: Blane Xero

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Ok, for the single last time.

- There are no caldari ships that are entirely limited to kinetic, its just your mindset limits you to kinetic.

- There are alot of ships that can load up railguns and do well in doing so.

- Something you might relate to, Turret based ships sacrifice damage / range / amount of ammo in the gun, to change range/damage and for T2 ammo some things like tracking. Where as missiles always use the same amount of room in the gun, always do the same range (exception being T2 ammo where fury/javelin sacrifice range for damage and damage for range with penalties to speed/cap usage)


Every weapon system has its upsides and its downsides, Caldari and Gallente are very much the same in a few ways... They both 50/50 between their two weapon systems, caldari its missiles and hybrids, gallente its hybrids and drones.

You my friend just need to learn to balance bonus with tradeoff, if you simply give all caldari missile ships a bonus to every missile type, your missile ships no longer need to worry about changing ammo for different ranges, they also don't need to worry about whether kinetic will be better or if you tradeoff the extra damage to do a little more damage with EM/Therm/Explosive.

Your suggestion of giving even thermal a lesser bonus or giving all missile ships an ROF bonus is largely uneeded, as what do we do with the ships that already have an ROF bonus?, increase it?. Kestrel/drake/caracal are the only ships which use missiles specifically that don't already have an ROF bonus in place aswell, and kestrel already has 5% more damage to the three other missiles.

if you give them a bigger ROF bonus i ask you to remove kinetics damage bonus, and if you give them a bonus to al three extra missile types (or even one) you remove the ROF bonus of any ships that are getting the uniform damage bonus. So guess what, your kinetic missiles will be doing less damage.

You cannot have the best of everything, you want to do great damage for all damage types with good rof's and pretty-much unchallanged range, oh i know, why don't you give heavy missiles a 40km cap, standard missiles a 15km cap and cruise a 80km cap, its only fair, you want one of the bonuses turrets have, that you adopt some of the penalties, one such penalty is range.

Oh i know, why don't we introduce new T1 missile types, longer ranged-less damaging, lower range less damaging, and all that, and just scrub Rockets/Hams/Torps completely.

Also if your stupid and haven't caught on yet, i'm pointing out that all weapon types have different things that make some people chose them over different types, Minmatar have lower range / higher falloff, or higher damage / slower ROF types.

Caldari and gallente are the only races thats weapon system works as well at 30km as it does at 5km for example, thats what makes missiles unique One of the penalties for such a valuable attribute is you only get one bonused damage type.

Oh another reason for the sacrilege's uniform damage bonus is normal T1 HAM range sucks, i believe you get about 15-20km maximum compared to 120km or so with heavy missiles with max skills.

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and just so you can understand for one final time:
form your post:
<<<<
Every weapon system has its upsides and its downsides, Caldari and Gallente are very much the same in a few ways... They both 50/50 between their two weapon systems, caldari its missiles and hybrids, gallente its hybrids and drones.
>>>>

Caldari misile ships do not have a 50/50 damage bonus split between kinetic/thermal. they only have the 0/50 damage bonus for kinetic ONLY. This is the point this topic discusses, why haven't you already understood that..

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