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Oveur on local: "When it becomes an intel tool, it's a problem"

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Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:01:00 - [61] Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 19/03/2008 05:01:05 Originally by: Jennai Originally by: Marcus TheMartin or they could take control of space they can actually defend as opposed to pos spamming and only defending when towers get reinforced good luck getting any defense gangs up in time when the only way to tell where the hostiles are or how many there are is to have a covops or a guy mashing scan every 5 seconds in every system within 10 jumps. and the other side would be equally frustrated because it would take forever to find targets for 0.0 roaming gangs. current procedure: scout jumps in, system is empty, gang moves on. scout goes to next system, hostiles in local, scout messes with scanner for a bit, hostiles are all in a pos or cloaked, gang moves on. there's a hell of a lot of completely empty systems, and being forced to scan everything would be immensely boring. you forgot to mention that your client mods would become useless
Jennai The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:16:00 - [62] anyone can edit cache portraits if they're smart enough. I never used that anyway, standings icons work well enough.
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:21:00 - [63] Originally by: Jennai anyone can edit cache portraits if they're smart enough. I never used that anyway, standings icons work well enough. fanfare plays You have defeated temptation you've earned 43xp temptation dropped 4900 gold you've earned 324 brownie points teleports Jennai back to the world map
Zorlag GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 05:51:00 - [64] Are you that guy who does nothing but talk about and post about the portrait pack or is that some other guy I never used the PP either, it's just too much trouble and since CCP incorporated the PP into the game it's way easier to just look at standings instead. Also I'm against removing local as an intel tool because honestly this game would be pretty obnoxious without it. I know how some people would find it more fun, but the majority of players would probably just hate it.
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.19 06:28:00 - [65] Originally by: Zorlag Are you that guy who does nothing but talk about and post about the portrait pack or is that some other guy I never used the PP either, it's just too much trouble and since CCP incorporated the PP into the game it's way easier to just look at standings instead. Also I'm against removing local as an intel tool because honestly this game would be pretty obnoxious without it. I know how some people would find it more fun, but the majority of players would probably just hate it. first client mod post ever I swear. Of course every one is going to hate local changes but the fact remains that seeing some ones name in local being reason enough for them to ctrl+q the **** out needs work. ex My recent ctrl+q with evil pookie in local, farmers multiple ctrl+q's with me in local.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood ANTHRAX DEATH	Posted - 2008.03.19 06:43:00 - [66] Originally by: Tarminic Couldn't this possibly create big lag problems in empire space? I could see the Constellation chat reach a thousand or more people. aside from that, it seems like a good idea to me. Not much need for it in empire, unless you're in a highsec corp/alliance at war (this might be another PRVTR stealth nerf if it happens?) because there aren't many people who actually keep constellation and region chat open... I know plenty who would close local if the game would let you. In 0.0, however, something like this would certainly make people keep Constellation open... would make blobs form faster, too, since an interloper would be spotted without necessarily having to be spotted. MOST of the "nerf Local" calls that I've seen on these forums have been with 'realism' and/or "vastness of space" in mind, i.e.: you would have no way of knowing when someone else entered the system if you didn't see them or scan for them. You'd have no idea they were there or who they were. I, for one, would have no problem keeping the D-scanner open and clicking scan every 20 seconds or so while ratting in nullsec.. but that's just me. And Local is definitely an intel channel. Heading up or down the pipe, I see hostiles (that is, reds OR neutrals) in system, I know not to warp directly to my next gate. Without people showing up automatically on Local, people would learn not to do this ever, at all under any circumstances. It would remove some of the complacency. It might not be the be-all, end-all solution but I certainly agree with the direction that suggestion points in. Here's me, hoping to be first poster in an epic-comedy "zomg how come i cant see them on local they killed me dead!" whine post someday, but doubting it'll ever happen.
El'Niaga Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 06:44:00 - [67] Removing local is a bad idea. Moving local to constellation is a bad idea. The only thing removing local would do is to remove subscriptions from the game. They tried this once already and the outrage was immense, I don't think it'll be tried again. (Yes it was claimed to be a mistake that time and was reversed shortly). Learn to face the reality that not everyone that plays wants to fight you. The game needs all the subscriptions to continue to expand content and pay the developers. So suck it up and adapt to local being there. It is like air radar that tracks the locations of all known entities in the surrounding airspace. It is a reasonable navigational function for a starfaring civilization.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.19 06:47:00 - [68] Originally by: El'Niaga Learn to face the reality that not everyone that plays wants to fight you. Because obviously that's the real issue here...
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.19 06:55:00 - [69] Originally by: El'Niaga Removing local is a bad idea. Moving local to constellation is a bad idea. The only thing removing local would do is to remove subscriptions from the game. They tried this once already and the outrage was immense, I don't think it'll be tried again. (Yes it was claimed to be a mistake that time and was reversed shortly). Learn to face the reality that not everyone that plays wants to fight you. The game needs all the subscriptions to continue to expand content and pay the developers. So suck it up and adapt to local being there. It is like air radar that tracks the locations of all known entities in the surrounding airspace. It is a reasonable navigational function for a starfaring civilization. the removal of local was a bug and like all bugs of anysort there is mass forum outrage It is reasonable for a starfaring civilization to figure out how to remove detection from the omni dectection field don't pull out your half assed role playing in this. Of course there are times when people don't want to fight but in the spirit of surprise pvp having local go +1 and lead to a **** WARP OUT GOOD THING I CAN RAT IN A MISSILE SHIP THAT DOSEN'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT TRACKING I CAN JUST WARP AND CLOAK OR HELL JUST LOG OFF AS THERE IS NO AGRESSION TIMER I NEED TO WORRY ABOUT
Polaris Lumine Red. Red Republic	Posted - 2008.03.19 06:58:00 - [70] Edited by: Polaris Lumine on 19/03/2008 06:58:37 Originally by: Brea Lafail The only people who want to remove Local as an intel tool are skill-less PvPers who want free ganks. QFT!
Steakkbone Blood-Adders Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.19 06:59:00 - [71] Edited by: Steakkbone on 19/03/2008 06:59:55 If constellation chat becomes a reality, I think ISK spammers are going to have a field day. It will be OVER 9000. They will be able to cover roughly every area at minimal effort, and most likely cause more people to buy isk and **** the economy up... Thoughts on this issue?
El'Niaga Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:00:00 - [72] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: El'Niaga Removing local is a bad idea. Moving local to constellation is a bad idea. The only thing removing local would do is to remove subscriptions from the game. They tried this once already and the outrage was immense, I don't think it'll be tried again. (Yes it was claimed to be a mistake that time and was reversed shortly). Learn to face the reality that not everyone that plays wants to fight you. The game needs all the subscriptions to continue to expand content and pay the developers. So suck it up and adapt to local being there. It is like air radar that tracks the locations of all known entities in the surrounding airspace. It is a reasonable navigational function for a starfaring civilization. the removal of local was a bug and like all bugs of anysort there is mass forum outrage It is reasonable for a starfaring civilization to figure out how to remove detection from the omni dectection field don't pull out your half assed role playing in this. Of course there are times when people don't want to fight but in the spirit of surprise pvp having local go +1 and lead to a **** WARP OUT GOOD THING I CAN RAT IN A MISSILE SHIP THAT DOSEN'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT TRACKING I CAN JUST WARP AND CLOAK OR HELL JUST LOG OFF AS THERE IS NO AGRESSION TIMER I NEED TO WORRY ABOUT The game needs all types. Let's give the industrialist the tools they need to wage proper PVP. Let's give them the ability to boycott selling goods and services to corporations or alliances. Currently they have no control over who buys their goods, but they should have for them to have real PVP in that area. Today aircraft since 9/11 have their transponders hardcoded such that they can't be turned off. I suspect a spacefaring race would do the same. However if you want such an item a rig that allows you not to show up in local that takes say 200 calibration points is far more reasonable than completely removing local for everyone.
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:09:00 - [73] Originally by: Polaris Lumine Edited by: Polaris Lumine on 19/03/2008 06:58:37 Originally by: Brea Lafail The only people who want to remove Local as an intel tool are skill-less PvPers who want free ganks. QFT! There is no truth in a general assumption Originally by: Steakkbone Edited by: Steakkbone on 19/03/2008 06:59:55 If constellation chat becomes a reality, I think ISK spammers are going to have a field day. It will be OVER 9000. They will be able to cover roughly every area at minimal effort, and most likely cause more people to buy isk and ** the economy up... Thoughts on this issue? Linkage Originally by:** El'Niaga The game needs all types. Let's give the industrialist the tools they need to wage proper PVP. Let's give them the ability to boycott selling goods and services to corporations or alliances. Currently they have no control over who buys their goods, but they should have for them to have real PVP in that area. Today aircraft since 9/11 have their transponders hardcoded such that they can't be turned off. I suspect a spacefaring race would do the same. However if you want such an item a rig that allows you not to show up in local that takes say 200 calibration points is far more reasonable than completely removing local for everyone. how would the removal of local kill industrialists off? good going bringing up the 9/11 card in a thread about internet space ships and their annoying chat room there are bots designed to use local and log off the instant a hostile jumps in (can't be linked due to isd) did you know that all electronic devices can be rendered useless via emp shock wave (not to be confused with emp smart bombs) or even sunspot activity so your all mighty proud to be american radio (that was made in china) is still vulnerable
Zorlag GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:16:00 - [74] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin first client mod post ever I swear. Of course every one is going to hate local changes but the fact remains that seeing some ones name in local being reason enough for them to ctrl+q the **** out needs work. ex My recent ctrl+q with evil pookie in local, farmers multiple ctrl+q's with me in local. Oh, soz for the mistaken identity thing. I realize that some people use local purely as a tool to ctrl-Q when hostiles jump into 0.0 space. That can be annoying. But the alternatives are seriously lacking. I can see why most gank pvpers would love this change (indeed it's pretty obvious why they would want this change) but for most people it would turn eve into even more of a chore than it already can be. There's a difference, I think, between making space Safe and making space Tedious. Local makes it more safe, which isn't necessarily positive in the EVE way of doing things, but I'm having trouble thinking of anything that would replace it without just being overly tedious. And yes, the directional scanner is overly tedious.
El'Niaga Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:17:00 - [75] Pointing out the injustice of the system Marcus. PVPers, particularly pirates keep crying for the removal of local. Yet at the same time the industrialist many of them prey upon do not have the power to exclude them from sales. Also EMP only works if the target isn't shielded against it.... I noticed you didn't comment on the rig idea. It would solve your problem without removing local for everyone. The person not wanting to appear in local merely has to invest in the rig and then those bots won't log out because they won't detect the rigged ship. Another solution would be to program EVE such that it shuts down if a third party program is running at the same time. The problem with this solution though is that you'd have to constantly maintain a bank of approved programs and unapproved programs so that you don't accidentally deny someone that's just running a browser or listening to music while playing EVE.
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:18:00 - [76] a passive long range and a passive short range scanner of varying accuracies could replace local and keep ravens "safe"
El'Niaga Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:24:00 - [77] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin a passive long range and a passive short range scanner of varying accuracies could replace local and keep ravens "safe" This games already so tedious on many levels and is one reason most people don't find it fun. Why add another layer of such tediousness to the game. No one wants to have another screen to keep an eye on, or a button to push every minute to see if anyone new has arrived. It will lead to less subscriptions. It's like the tedious nature of POS maintenance, lack of proper docking in 0.0, lack of assembly and research lines, the fact 90% of 0.0 is NBSI, and then complaining about why folks don't come there.
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:26:00 - [78] Originally by: El'Niaga Originally by: Marcus TheMartin a passive long range and a passive short range scanner of varying accuracies could replace local and keep ravens "safe" This games already so tedious on many levels and is one reason most people don't find it fun. Why add another layer of such tediousness to the game. No one wants to have another screen to keep an eye on, or a button to push every minute to see if anyone new has arrived. It will lead to less subscriptions. It's like the tedious nature of POS maintenance, lack of proper docking in 0.0, lack of assembly and research lines, the fact 90% of 0.0 is NBSI, and then complaining about why folks don't come there. do you know what passive means?
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:29:00 - [79] Are you 8 years old, Bellum Eternus? If you could stay focused on something for more than 2 minutes, you would have heard where Oveur states that they want players to have situational awareness of their surroundings but think that local chat is not a very good way of doing it. They have been searching for a good solution (not a noob one like constellation chat) for 2 years and when they get a good solution, they will put it in. If anyone has any good solutions for local chat instead of "lulz removeorz teh thing!" then bring em out.
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:32:00 - [80] What I don't understand is why they allowed Standings to be visible in the local channel, if they didn't want it to be a tactical tool? IMO the game would be much more interesting without Local chat, but I don't really see it happening. ...
El'Niaga Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:32:00 - [81] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: El'Niaga Originally by: Marcus TheMartin a passive long range and a passive short range scanner of varying accuracies could replace local and keep ravens "safe" This games already so tedious on many levels and is one reason most people don't find it fun. Why add another layer of such tediousness to the game. No one wants to have another screen to keep an eye on, or a button to push every minute to see if anyone new has arrived. It will lead to less subscriptions. It's like the tedious nature of POS maintenance, lack of proper docking in 0.0, lack of assembly and research lines, the fact 90% of 0.0 is NBSI, and then complaining about why folks don't come there. do you know what passive means? Yes I do but I can think of no way to make it passive without making it local again..... I suppose you could make a rig that allowed you to see everyone in local, but then that becomes a must have rig/module for everyone, and I'm against having any one rig/module a must have.
El'Niaga Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.19 07:33:00 - [82] Originally by: Rawr Cristina What I don't understand is why they allowed Standings to be visible in the local channel, if they didn't want it to be a tactical tool? IMO the game would be much more interesting without Local chat, but I don't really see it happening. Someone had hacked a series of clients to allow them to see that. CCP found out and rather than allowing it to only benefit one side decided to include the hack for everyone. I'll let you guess which alliance did it initially.
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.19 08:24:00 - [83] Originally by: El'Niaga Someone had hacked a series of clients to allow them to see that. CCP found out and rather than allowing it to only benefit one side decided to include the hack for everyone. CCP seem to have a history of doing that. WTZ anyone? ...
Zorlag GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 08:27:00 - [84] More like CCP has a history of having the least user-friendly interface ever and have trouble thinking of improvements until other people program it in for them?
Bellum Eternus Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.19 09:09:00 - [85] After thinking about it some more, I think that the easiest/most logical thing to do is simply make local behave like constellation/alliance chat etc., and not allow players to appear unless they use the chat channel. To all the babies whining that I just want 'easy ganks'- not so. Losing local is a two edged sword. I'd suffer just as much from lack of intel as anyone else. People come looking to kill me all the time with blobs that outnumber my gangs by 5:1 at least. It's in their best interest for this change, as I'd have a harder time knowing what is around the area. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Kyguard Fire Mandrill	Posted - 2008.03.19 09:18:00 - [86] Meh local intel is really a non-issue, it's something the pvp extremist "hardcore" (although they're not really) want to have just like the pve extremist "carebears" want to have 100% free high sec. Local isn't a broken mechanic, it can be abused, but that's almost the same with every eve concept. Nonetheless, if it has to be changed, then constellation chat is the best thing without going overboard. Delayed local as some have suggested isn't practical at all. -
HenkieBoy Enrave	Posted - 2008.03.19 09:18:00 - [87] About chatscreens... just remove them all.. Players are quite capable to join/create own channels. New players automatic join the help channel where they can redirected to fun/good channels. About local as an intel channel.. well.. Removing them will create a new 'job' which is quite boring and needs to be done 23/7 in order to protect others who are busy with mining and ratting and other stuff. Also, you need multiple people to do that. The part I like is that alliances can't claim endless without the need for scouts, bigger sov means much more scouts out there.
Kyguard Fire Mandrill	Posted - 2008.03.19 09:20:00 - [88] Originally by: Bellum Eternus After thinking about it some more, I think that the easiest/most logical thing to do is simply make local behave like constellation/alliance chat etc., and not allow players to appear unless they use the chat channel. Would make recons and future cloak-role ships overpowered. -
Burnharder Tiny Industries	Posted - 2008.03.19 09:36:00 - [89] Originally by: HenkieBoy About chatscreens... just remove them all.. Players are quite capable to join/create own channels. New players automatic join the help channel where they can redirected to fun/good channels. About local as an intel channel.. well.. Removing them will create a new 'job' which is quite boring and needs to be done 23/7 in order to protect others who are busy with mining and ratting and other stuff. Also, you need multiple people to do that. The part I like is that alliances can't claim endless without the need for scouts, bigger sov means much more scouts out there. Not to mention making things extremely difficult for solo/independant players, of which there are many . I'm not sure what the answer is here, unless you invent a new mechanism that is as good, easy to use and light-weight as local (I doubt scanning is light-weight). In which case, what would be the point of removing it? Similar to the WTZ argument, I'm all in favour of the simplest solution. Is local already that? I think perhaps it is.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.19 10:14:00 - [90] Originally by: Pan Crastus Removing local would be a radical change, but it might solve the blobbing problem (you could use multiple fleets effectively to surprise the enemy). Mmmm.... yeah, in theory. In practice, it would make outblobbing/baiting/logonski even more powerful, as you'd have no real warning of a impending blob/logonski/whatever until you saw the ships on scanner, which doesn't provide enough time to pull out unless you're all in nanoships anyway. Furthermore, scanner needs love before anything happens to local (you would have to be able to make it auto-update, because spamming the button is dumb, and you'd seriously have to make for a way to identify friend/foe/neutral ships on scanner). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

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