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Oveur on local: "When it becomes an intel tool, it's a problem"

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Atreides Horza No Fear Buccaneers	Posted - 2008.03.19 10:20:00 - [91] Edited by: Atreides Horza on 19/03/2008 10:22:42 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Swap local/constellation chat functionality: force players to appear in constellation chat, and only appear in local if they speak. Problem solved. Minimum of coding. No new stuff required. You guys (the devs) can't use the excuse that you don't like to make radical changes to the game: you removed instas and introduced WTZ. Can't get much more radical than that. It's high time you removed local. It breaks so many things currently, and is partly responsible for many of the problems we currently have: the Jita situation, massive blob warfare, complete lack of stealth/sneak attacks, ISK farmers... the list goes on. ^^^ This - and Bellum for prez tbfh. Also, converting to the constellation-model will get rid of the smacktalk that often affects the gaming experience and the community as a whole in a very negative way. It'd add another strategic dimension to the game in moving smaller fleets unseen through hostile territory with specific strategic objectives, rather than just one big blob looking for another big blob. ISK selling would be struck hard too, since there'd be a lot less chat channels to monitor. Getting rid of local could be regarded as a way of boosting piracy, but it'd be just as much of a help to carebears and people trying to get by in losec. Who'd wanna gatecamp while running the risk of blob sneaking up on you? Also, pirates would be forced to move around to locate targets - and that'd pretty much solve the whole issue of macro mining. You'd have to be present at your computer while mining in order to avoid getting killed.
panman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.03.19 10:22:00 - [92] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Swap local/constellation chat functionality: force players to appear in constellation chat, and only appear in local if they speak. Problem solved. Minimum of coding. No new stuff required. This, a great idea in my opinion. ----------------------- Resistance is not worth it
Sorted Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.03.19 10:26:00 - [93] 100% Agree with the OP. makes ALOT of sense.
Xikin Honour Bound G Thanks Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.19 10:51:00 - [94] Local stays but shows only the amount of people in system you dont know who just jump in but if its your alliance mate he can always say hi and appear if 20 are in local and 1 just stays silent assume hostile, as for roaming gangs its hard to miss a 5-10 ppl spike in a system :P
Grunt Futtoks Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2008.03.19 10:58:00 - [95] I love how the OP is like "I have read the discussions and know the issues at hand"... and then completely fails to address the glaring issues with what he is suggesting. Quote: We already have awesome scanning tools: 20 and 40 AU probes Wow you need to go back and actually read some of the issues, or actually think about your changes from the perspective of other players because the need for "better scanning tools" has absolutely nothing to do with probes. Unless of course you're not being entirely serious. And I really hope you're not being serious about your posts. - "We do not ask sheep to be wolves; we, the wolves, do not ask ourselves to be sheep. Sheep can make such rules as happen to suit them--but it's foolishly naive to expect wolves to obey."
Siigari Kitawa The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:00:00 - [96] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 19/03/2008 11:02:01 Local's not gonna get nerfed. I don't think CCP can do it. Additionally, even though this whine comes around probably once every week, I don't think the players would be able to actually deal with the fact that they look at local and they see an empty box. There's something fundamentally wrong with moving into a system and not knowing who all is there. It's like a very very very basic scanner. It lets you know who is there but you get no other details. Getting rid of local will practically destroy EVE's playability for older players. Roaming is fun because we can HUNT. Take away the ability to find any sort of bread crumbs (such as jumping into a system and seeing your target there) and you take away the spirit of the game, which is PVP. CCP won't do it. They just won't.
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:03:00 - [97] Originally by: Alski Any form of removing local as an intel tool needs to come in the form of something that: A- does not require every player to spam the directional scanner constantly, creating yet more lag and being a pain to use. B- identifies friend from foe. the idea of removign local as itenl tool is EXACLTY so people not automagically know who is there or not. It SHOUDL need effort to discover who is in system. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kagura Nikon Infinity Enterprises Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:06:00 - [98] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 19/03/2008 11:02:01 Local's not gonna get nerfed. I don't think CCP can do it. Additionally, even though this whine comes around probably once every week, I don't think the players would be able to actually deal with the fact that they look at local and they see an empty box. There's something fundamentally wrong with moving into a system and not knowing who all is there. It's like a very very very basic scanner. It lets you know who is there but you get no other details. Getting rid of local will practically destroy EVE's playability for older players. Roaming is fun because we can HUNT. Take away the ability to find any sort of bread crumbs (such as jumping into a system and seeing your target there) and you take away the spirit of the game, which is PVP. CCP won't do it. They just won't. on the contrary. removign local will improve PVP. Because then you wotn have automatic logoff of everyone in a low sec system when a pirate comes in. You wotn have anymore the blobbing effect of: hey they have 70 peopel we have 50, we need 40 more. Because you dotn knwo how many they have. Belt huntign will become very possible again (today is a near miracle to do it unless by sheer luck of findign a semi afk target). On the contrary. NErfin local will ENHANCE the very spirit of the game. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Zarin University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:17:00 - [99] Edited by: Zarin on 19/03/2008 11:19:37 The reality is they're not going to remove local until they replace it with a tool that does EXACTLY the same thing. So aside from using it for an un-intended purpose there's really no reason to remove it, since it will just be replaced with 'local substitute 1' that works just the same. Remember if you replace it with constellation chat, people can get a warning you're coming to shoot them SEVERAL jumps out instead of just one. If you don't have it at all you will jump into a system and have to scan around it yourself to find out if there's anyone there to kill. Meanwhile they know you are coming as you've been scanned 3 jumps out by a cov-ops and have logged out anyway. So in no way is it actually going to make it easier for the attacker if it's removed. Remember they're going to remove belts eventually as well, so you're to have to use your onboard scanner just to find the new 'belts' that they might be npcing in, and wait for results just so you can warp there and maybe find someone or not, you won't know until you get there.
Alfie Bester Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:24:00 - [100] Quote: My opinion, probably stated many times before on the forums: Either remove local completely (with negative "social" impacts resulting) or instead simply set local so that people only appear to others already in system if they choose to speak in it - or after a set time delay. Thats what I think is the most elegant solution as well. Er, the latter part... then if you choose to speak in local you appear. If we could go even further and say if you have picked up someone on scanner, then they stay in local until they leave system... that might be a compromise. Removing local is NOT that crazy, imo because I believe that if there is one thing about EVE Players... its that we are a resourceful group of people. I really think that CCP could make nearly any change to the game and we would all figure out how that change can be used to benefit ourselves. Someone mentioned a "passive scanner" If what they meant was: "If you leave your scanner open, and someone comes within range... it should auto update without having to hit scan." then that actually makes a lot of sense to me also. Interesting topic!
Mostly Amazing Mostly Amazing Corp	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:26:00 - [101] Forcing people into constellation chat and not in local chat is gonna make it ten times harder for 0.0 pvp roaming. - You are gonna have to go around the entire system scanning for people, and with 0.0 being failry empty as it is. That's gonna take a lot of time. It's already annoying having to fly through so many systems just to find a target, this is gonna triple the time. - Its gonna get easier to avoid hostiles. They can see them coming just by looking at constellation chat. -------------- I R Not Completely Amazing, But I R Mostly Amazing
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:37:00 - [102] I don't get the: "remove local is what crappy pvp'er and gankers want" stuff. I am primarily an industrialist. I feel that the MUTUAL anonymity of no local allows me to use my skill, knowledge and planning to survive in low sec rather than local. You seem to forget removing local does not give gankers a warp to point on you ffs. They are at exactley the same disadvantage as you are. I hate knowing if there are enemies in local as they know im there too. I then have to endure smack whilst I navigate around them. I would much rather have the element of surprise in my transport ship. And that is the crucial point. Local removes the most effective tool in war or survival. Surprise. Quarry can go to ground if their ears are sharper than the predator. It's very EvE. Risk vs Reward, darwinism yadda yadda. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Siigari Kitawa The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:40:00 - [103] Originally by: Kagura Nikon on the contrary. removign local will improve PVP. Because then you wotn have automatic logoff of everyone in a low sec system when a pirate comes in. You wotn have anymore the blobbing effect of: hey they have 70 peopel we have 50, we need 40 more. Because you dotn knwo how many they have. Belt huntign will become very possible again (today is a near miracle to do it unless by sheer luck of findign a semi afk target). On the contrary. NErfin local will ENHANCE the very spirit of the game. No, it won't. Removing local will cause a ripple effect like this: Nobody can see anyone in local anymore, hence people will start blobbing around looking for a random target, in order to win a fight they're not sure about because they can't see ambushes/etc in local, so they must be prepared for anything. I just shot down your argument with your own argument.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:44:00 - [104] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 19/03/2008 11:44:42 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Kagura Nikon on the contrary. removign local will improve PVP. Because then you wotn have automatic logoff of everyone in a low sec system when a pirate comes in. You wotn have anymore the blobbing effect of: hey they have 70 peopel we have 50, we need 40 more. Because you dotn knwo how many they have. Belt huntign will become very possible again (today is a near miracle to do it unless by sheer luck of findign a semi afk target). On the contrary. NErfin local will ENHANCE the very spirit of the game. No, it won't. Removing local will cause a ripple effect like this: Nobody can see anyone in local anymore, hence people will start blobbing around looking for a random target, in order to win a fight they're not sure about because they can't see ambushes/etc in local, so they must be prepared for anything. I just shot down your argument with your own argument. This already happens...every-single-day-in-eve. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Caffeine Junkie 300 Spartans Celestial Frontier	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:51:00 - [105] In two minds about removing local, makes it easier for aggressors and harder for the population of a system. Would be very nice for skirmish gangs, and would help to reduce blobbing (as people won't know your coming 10 jumps out because a guy saw you in local). It will probably just mean that alliances have permanent alts cloaked on gates watching for incoming hostiles.
Siigari Kitawa The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:53:00 - [106] Originally by: Celeste Coeval This already happens...every-single-day-in-eve. The argument isn't about blobs, it's about intel. What good is blob in finding a target that isn't in local, if the target knows there is a blob? Sure you can sweep the system faster, but that in it's self eliminates a blob warp in all at once. It would work the same as it always does. Someone gets a point the rest warp in. Because you shouldn't remove local. Local exists as a TOOL. Period. Just let it go. Everybody uses local as intel, and it has always been that way. Changing this sort of stuff causes HUGE player whiplash (have you pressed "alt" in space lately?) and creates a negative buzz across the playerbase that makes CCP uncomfortable (or at least we would hope it would).
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:57:00 - [107] Originally by: Caffeine Junkie In two minds about removing local, makes it easier for aggressors and harder for the population of a system. Would be very nice for skirmish gangs, and would help to reduce blobbing (as people won't know your coming 10 jumps out because a guy saw you in local). It will probably just mean that alliances have permanent alts cloaked on gates watching for incoming hostiles. Uou do realize that although the cloaked alt is a problem that its ability to cover regions is very limited and to actually catch someone jump in and orchestrate a response is nearly impossible unless your gang knows the next system the guy / blob is going to. I think afk cloakers are overated for intel. An active player cloaked collecting intel is many times more effective. Not to mention you wouldn't know there was an afk cloaker or a real cloaker anyway with current mechanics, unless the afk cloaker is there 23/7. You would not be able to make the distinction with no local. Further to that current mechanics mean that having an army of afk cloaker-alts would be of more benefit with local. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Seldarine Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.03.19 11:59:00 - [108] CCP will NEVER remove local for the following reasons: The vast majority of the playerbase has never, and will never set foot in 0.0. The vast majority of the playerbase have never and will never pvp. The vast majority of the playerbase is where CCP earn the vast majority of thier income. ______________________________ Seldarine
Celeste Coeval	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:00:00 - [109] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Originally by: Celeste Coeval This already happens...every-single-day-in-eve. The argument isn't about blobs, it's about intel. What good is blob in finding a target that isn't in local, if the target knows there is a blob? Sure you can sweep the system faster, but that in it's self eliminates a blob warp in all at once. It would work the same as it always does. Someone gets a point the rest warp in. Because you shouldn't remove local. Local exists as a TOOL. Period. Just let it go. Everybody uses local as intel, and it has always been that way. Changing this sort of stuff causes HUGE player whiplash (have you pressed "alt" in space lately?) and creates a negative buzz across the playerbase that makes CCP uncomfortable (or at least we would hope it would). Your opinion is noted and valid, but so is mine. The difficulty is hammering out a solution thats eve like. Because there are many players that don't want to "let it go". Tools are great as long as they don't bestow omnipresence. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Sajuukar	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:01:00 - [110] this is a bit of a crazy idea but ill just put it out there anyway: if we just have a constellation channel , but instead of permanently staying in the channel, after entering a constellation you only appear in the channel for a limited amount of time (say 30 seconds or maybe 2 mins). this would mean tht a large blob of ppl would easily be seen entering the constellation , this therefore gives smaller gangs the advantage whilst disadvantaging a large blob. if a miner isnt paying attension to the channel then he may miss the solo pirate entering the constellation. Yet large mining ops can be carryed out in relative secrecy if done right.
Siigari Kitawa	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:05:00 - [111] Originally by: Celeste Coeval Your opinion is noted and valid, but so is mine. The difficulty is hammering out a solution thats eve like. Because there are many players that don't want to "let it go". Tools are great as long as they don't bestow omnipresence. I don't see where omnipresence comes into the picture. You are in a system. You see everyone else there with you. End of local's intel-gathering abilities. It is not a "game breaker" or else it would have been taken out years ago. I love local. It lets me know how cautious I have to be in a system, if at all. Metagaming can take away from this experience, but I don't fly with an alt. I fly solo. So I use my map and coordinate with friends to find out if systems are clear. Local enhances that ability to teamwork. btw- you speak rather elegantly, and it's very welcome after seeing nonstop "omgz internet speak" Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:08:00 - [112] i would love this, but with the morons mounting their cause-a-week barage on nanos and ECM because they can't PVP, removing local and making people use their scanner for things other than ganking other ships... WELL THATS JUST TO MUCH FOR THE MEATHEADS TO TAKE YOU SEE... get rid of local, just do it already
Torin Corax Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:10:00 - [113] Speaking from the standpoint of a covops/ recon pilot Local is the most annoying tool in the game. There is little point acting as a scout if my war targets know I'm there the second I jump in. I believe there is something deeply flawed if an unidentifiable alt in a newb frig makes for a better scout than my main, when I have taken the time to train specifically for the role. Not to mention spending a reasonable sum on role-specific ships. Personally I'd support the removal of Local and have it replaced by a buff to the scanner.Possibly an increased range+auto-update, maybe have the scanner give increasing levels of information as range decreases. E.g: Maximum range (system wide perhaps) Indicates the presence of a ship only. Medium Range (approx. 20 Au) same level of info as at present. Short range (5 Au or less) pilot name (with or without right-click option?) This way, so long as a ship is cloaked, it would not show up. This would give the role of scout back to the covops pilots, and away from the alts. Torin
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:12:00 - [114] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 19/03/2008 12:12:47 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I don't see where omnipresence comes into the picture. You are in a system. You see everyone else there with you. End of local's intel-gathering abilities. It is not a "game breaker" or else it would have been taken out years ago. I love local. It lets me know how cautious I have to be in a system, if at all. Metagaming can take away from this experience, but I don't fly with an alt. I fly solo. So I use my map and coordinate with friends to find out if systems are clear. Local enhances that ability to teamwork. btw- you speak rather elegantly, and it's very welcome after seeing nonstop "omgz internet speak" heh thankyou. Vocab "ftw". I also don't fly with an alt. I enjoy solo play and tend to fly anywhere in eve I want to. I don't adhere to alliance boundaries or "camped" systems. I fly through amamake several times a day in an industrial. Only lost one so far in a few months. I feel that at least, ccp need to make local intel a modular thing and ranged at that. I'm confident that with enough discussion a solution can be reached that appeases most parties on this issue. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:12:00 - [115] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin there are bots designed to use local and log off the instant a hostile jumps in (can't be linked due to isd) and the solution to these is to fix cloaking and change aggression mechanics for rats. Not to remove all profitability from 0.0 and low sec belt production.
Pushtan The BlackHand Order FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:14:00 - [116] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Stupid forums ate my original post. tl;dr version: was watching the dev interviews during the 5th Alliance Tournament. Oveur says "when the chat becomes an intel tool, it's a problem". Well, quite frankly, local has always been an intel tool since it has existed. If it's that fundamental of a problem, change it already. Swap local/constellation chat functionality: force players to appear in constellation chat, and only appear in local if they speak. Problem solved. Minimum of coding. No new stuff required. You guys (the devs) can't use the excuse that you don't like to make radical changes to the game: you removed instas and introduced WTZ. Can't get much more radical than that. It's high time you removed local. It breaks so many things currently, and is partly responsible for many of the problems we currently have: the Jita situation, massive blob warfare, complete lack of stealth/sneak attacks, ISK farmers... the list goes on. The dev team asks for constructive posts over and over. I submit that this post is entirely constructive, as I've stated the problem, and the solution, and the factors that contribute to the problem and how the solution would resolve the issue. Thanks in advance, looking forward to constellation chat. Im sorry.....WTF did you just suggest?!!? So, er, do you go to 0.0 or not? cus that might be all well and good for probers/scouts....what the hell you gonna do when your miners get ganked hourly cus they cant avoid hostiles?? and dont tell me you dont care about carebears, cus if you want to get ANYWHERE in this game you need miners to fuel your outpost/POS or build ships... That is total bull, think about it, you'll never get anything industrial related done if all you can see is Constelation with 1000 red -'s in it - paranoia is bad enough without not knowing if your gonna get a cap fleet drop on your nice camp/squad... Eejit. [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:16:00 - [117] The functionality is already there: player-made channels can be set so that people only show up when they talk, and disappear after a while. Just apply the same code to the local channel. Problem solved. ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
Soyemia Art of War	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:22:00 - [118] Constant scanner spam ftw? Official BoB fanboy. Called Stabemia. Corp hopper.
Sky Marshal Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:24:00 - [119] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 19/03/2008 12:26:24 Originally by: Kagura Nikon It SHOUDL need effort to discover who is in system. Yes, EVE is a work, not a game, we should do all things hardly instead of enjoy the game. Some solutions provided by the Remover Faction, requires that Corporations must support the change by themselves. Scouting, scanning, POS module who need fuel... No one like scouting to permit others players to play, no one, as the scout want play too. No one like scanning each second, but same if we extend the range of the scanner and make it automatic, this solves nothing. When we see someone in local, we can react immediatly. If the scanner find someone, it is probably too late, as the FOE is certainly warping on your position. Originally by: Kagura Nikon You wotn have anymore the blobbing effect of: hey they have 70 peopel we have 50, we need 40 more. Because you dotn knwo how many they have. This would improve the blobbing effect at contrary, as told by an another player before. As we don't know how much people there are or there will be, we will not take risks : +100 players minimum for fleet, minimum, to be sure to encounter any FOE fleet correctly, and add others allies fleets in the same time. Originally by: Kagura Nikon Because then you wotn have automatic logoff of everyone in a low sec system when a pirate comes in. Yes, everyone will love the obligation to stay connected more time than before to avoid a loss... Originally by: Kagura Nikon Belt huntign will become very possible again (today is a near miracle to do it unless by sheer luck of findign a semi afk target). Yes, and so many players will leave 0.0 and Low/sec because they can't mine or farm with a minimum of security. I will do the same. It is too easy to ask a corporation or a group of players to adapt to have security, when we forget that the first goal, is playing. A new time, this is a thread between the workers against the players. Quote: Thats what I think is the most elegant solution as well. Er, the latter part... then if you choose to speak in local you appear. Seriously, few players speaks in local, in lowsec or 0.0. Of course, it is not the case after a good fight or a fleet battle, but generaly the local is always empty. Make this is the same than remove local, no one will ever speak after that, to note provide intel for FOE. This can become an alliance obligation too, but this don't give the same security than before removing local. So, this solves nothing. ____ 14/20 Revelations : Desyncs... 11/20 Trinity : BBSOD, Bugs, Desyncs, F*** Nerfs 10/20 1.1 : [...] + EXP shield nerf 07/20 ½ Not a single nerf + : What ?!? CCP is the real problem of EVE.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.19 12:29:00 - [120] Edited by: Avon on 19/03/2008 12:31:12 Grr, forum ate my post. Make local more local. Points: Any ship within range of your ship's scanner appear in your local list (unless cloaked) automatically. Ship scanner range is modified for these purposes as: Scan range + (200AU*system sec status). Cloaked ships can be revealed in local with a scan probe, but not their position. Range = probe range. Fleet designated scouts relay their local scan information to all ships in a fleet (within the same system). Speaking in local automatically reveals you. I did a long write up on how that would effect gameplay, but I can't be bothered to type it again. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure

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