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Oveur on local: "When it becomes an intel tool, it's a problem"

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Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.03.20 07:22:00 - [241] Who chats in local besides in trade hubs? If people want to look for deals they can have a specific channel or constellation channel. OR Remove member list local where it displays new people immediately. Alternative 1: Put in place active member list local. You talk in local, you show up. Chatters get what they want, intel tool is gained only when you waive your right being a chatterbox and blasting your communication waves all over the system. Alternative 2 a: Time based member list. Depending on the security status of the system results would come in delayed. The higher the security, the quicker it would appear to you and to them. Alternative 2 b: A harsher version would be all current people in system beyond the time period would show to everyone after the time, including new people who just entered. Both would best to have a random deviation to the results, but that would be dependent if it would cause lag to users. Some ideas were gotten from a really good low sec idea improvement thread. This one is actually pretty good.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.20 07:37:00 - [242] Originally by: Jennai Originally by: Goumindong edit: Jennai, something is seriously wrong with your sense of time. 19 seconds for 138k warp is way way way too much, try 5 seconds at the most. I used a stopwatch, starting as soon as I heard the "warp drive active" voice and stopping when the speedometer no longer said (WARPING). arazu reaches its peak speed on the short warp after 5 seconds, immediately begins decelerating, is on grid at 13 seconds, and is controllable at 19 seconds. on the 36.6 AU warp, it reaches its cruising speed of 3.7AU/s at 8 seconds, begins decelerating at 18 seconds, is on grid at 32 seconds, and is controllable at 39. max scan range is 2,147,483,647 km = 14.35 AU. an arazu will be within scan range of its destination for 24 seconds before coming out of warp ... but it's an arazu, and someone in a belt with no local wouldn't even know it was there unless they had an alt on the gate. any recon gang willing to go through the tedium of scanning lots of empty belts will get really easy kills. if everyone shows up in constellation chat, a few mostly-afk cloakers will have the same effect on an entire constellation that they do on a single system now. 1. Only if the arazu started warp within 14 AU. 2. you said the warp time for 138,000 KM was 19 seconds. You cant reach max warp speed on a warp that short. You are also ignoring faster ships.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.20 07:40:00 - [243] Edited by: Goumindong on 20/03/2008 07:43:34 Originally by: Razin Originally by: Goumindong No, it really does. You have to have corp/alliance information. You have to have advanced warning significantly greater than the 3 seconds that a 14 AU scan provides you[a 100 AU warp can be crossed in about 10 seconds by a tackling interceptor, making even this amount very iffy]. You have to have the ability to see cloaked targets[which is actually impossible with the current mechanics] If you don't the system doesn't work. The ability of ratters to produce would be removed. YouÆre making an assumption that the interceptor would know exactly where to warp to. Corp/alliance information does not have to be provided at a system-wide range to be useful. Your warning comes when the local count changes (someone else enters the system). Presumably the ænewÆ scanner will show ship-type and other info as it comes into range. What you do with all that information is up to you (youÆd certainly have the option to line-up to warp-off instantaneously û something that many miners/ratters currently do anyway when someone enters the system). How much of an advance warning do you get when you jump into a newly formed gate camp? (If Local is changed in this manner, I wouldnÆt have any problems with some method of scanning for cloaked ships) You're making the assumption that they use an interceptor. And yes, typically the interceptors do know where to warp to. You warp to the belts not in scan range. When you enter the system you scan what you can, then warp to a belt outside of scan range while scanning belts and moons in range as you arrive. Its pretty easy to pin someone down that you can scan out very fast. Edit: to answer the question presented: you have infinite seconds since you have a covops scouting for you, who mwds, then cloaks and gives you numbers, fleet composition, and other pertanent info.
Lucky Lynn State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.20 07:45:00 - [244] Only read the title so I don't know if it's been brought up but Oveur did say once in a post something about removing local because he didn't like how it turned out. This was back in '04. I'll try to dig it out.
Bellum Eternus Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.20 07:57:00 - [245] GD forum ate my post again. !!!! tl;dr version: 'delayed mode' should be sufficent for local- it lets you know how many people are in system, so you don't scan forever in empty systems, but you don't know who it is that is in the system for sure unless you make contact or they speak. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
cRaNbErRy MuFfInMaN mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.03.20 08:04:00 - [246] bellum this idea stinks this would help communist russians.
Pushtan The BlackHand Order FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.03.20 08:10:00 - [247] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Pushtan Originally by: Bellum Eternus And btw, if WoW can do it, I'm sure Eve can too (with respect to not having/needing a local chat channel the likes of which we have now. Yes, I know WoW has 'local chat', but it's not the intel tool it currently is in Eve. You people are telling me that WoW noobs are superior to Eve players? Impossible. Hang on....did he just use a Wow -> Eve -> Wow example....? Tell you what, come hang around GW for a few weeks and hide your local chat, k? see you there make sure you didn't forget your liquid ozone this time what? I dont need Liqiud Ozone - but if you want me to jetison some next to your corpse, then sure
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.20 08:24:00 - [248] Do most of you suffer from ADHD? I see people who obviously haven't even read the thread. @ jennai we already have blobs that crash nodes, afk cloakers are reduced in efficency with local removed. As I argued earlier which you obviously ignored. @ asuka your very perceptive @ El'Niaga where is your evidence for loss of subscriptions, you own a third of the eve accounts? @ Vorian there is a huge difference between having local and no local as Torin and I have both extensively discussed. @ muffinman If you can't be bothered to debate the points actually raised intelligently and repetitively post "this is stupid", you have no point to stand on. Please READ the thread and form constructive arguments before posting (I know thats alot to ask on EvE-O) Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Kyra Felann Noir.	Posted - 2008.03.20 08:29:00 - [249] Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus Edited by: Skraeling Shortbus on 20/03/2008 03:55:05 leave local as it is... sort of. Cloaking ships, covops,recons etc.. dont show up. Everyone else does.. let scouts actually be able to scout. I think it should be removed, but I definitely agree about at least not showing cloaked ships. Local now leads to metagaming tactics like having to have out-of-corp alts as scouts because if you scout with a character in your corp, uh oh! Everyone in system sees you and the little red star icon.
Killde Veto. Academy Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.03.20 08:46:00 - [250] Edited by: Killde on 20/03/2008 08:47:22 Originally by: El'Niaga It also doesn't give the PVP tools needed to merchants as I pointed out before. You don't get the option of boycotting sales to anyone. If you had that option you'd see a very different EVE today. If you are looking for non consensual PVP then I'd suggest using a ship other than the Hulk, which though it can bring down a cruiser, is no match for a well fitted PVP ship. Realize that the guy in a Hulk is supplying you with the materials needed to conduct your PVP. He has no choice who buys his goods, unless he just builds for himself. If he puts it up on the market anyone can buy it, and that's not PVP for him. Go find a target that at least has a chance to fight back, a hulk fitted for mining is not going to be fighting back very long. It seems you are more interested in easy kills than real PVP. I'm all for more market management tools, but to be frank that's a completely different discussion. TBH local isn't so bad, the problem is it's a perfect source of intel. You know exactly how many players are in system, their names, corps sec status everything. This allows people who are looking to avoid fights a foolproof method of knowing when it's time to cloak/dockup. There is NO gameplay mechanic that can overcome this, NONE. So don't say use the gameplay mechanics to overcome the problem, because you can't. That's why I suggest the following: An option to not appear in local, you don't show up in local (but player count may/maynot still count you, up to balance) but no one else shows up for you either (but player count may/maynot still count them, up to balance). Speaking would not add a players name to your listing of players... but you could show info on their name in the text bar. This means people in 'stealth mode' get less info, in exchange for more stealth. Note that alliance members will show up in your local list regardless of mode. Another option instead of having a simple menu option is to have a rig or perhaps a pricey low slot module called "Modified transponder" that achieves the above without detached menu buttons. This allows for 'pirates' and people looking for a fight to either be stealthier (perhaps at the cost of a rig slot) while losing easy intel, or stick with easier intel at the cost being visible to all. This fixes the problem of people playing the 'no risk game' in areas of the game that are defined by risk, while at the same time making it harder to locate targets for pirates/PvPers who use this new gameplay mechanic to overcome a flaw in the current system. For those of you that think people in low/zero sec who don't not want to risk their ship should be allowed to avoid combat, remember that empire space is designed for that. Low/zero space should always have some degree of risk.
Torin Corax Dark Nova Crisis Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.03.20 10:04:00 - [251] Originally by: El'Niaga Originally by: Asuka Smith Originally by: El'Niaga Realize that the guy in a Hulk is supplying you with the materials needed to conduct your PVP. He has no choice who buys his goods, unless he just builds for himself. If he puts it up on the market anyone can buy it, and that's not PVP for him. Go find a target that at least has a chance to fight back, a hulk fitted for mining is not going to be fighting back very long. It seems you are more interested in easy kills than real PVP. No. Sorry but my corps' miners are supplying the materials, and if you come into the lowsec systems we mine you are in direct competition with them for local resources. As such you are a valid target and will be attacked on sight, but wait. what's that..oh you warped to a safe as soon as you saw us in local. Now we have to waste time camping the gates and station to see who is the most patient, oh you logged. See a pattern forming here? Cue several hours of the interloper logging on and off waiting for local to be empty before continuing on his merry, and almost completely safe, way. however, as I've said before it's the amount of info local gives to war targets that irritates me the most, and yes I'm a cov-ops pilot and damn proud of it
Theladder Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.03.20 10:21:00 - [252] It looks like people are looking for easy ganks here
Zaskarr Falling Stars Squadron Aphelion.	Posted - 2008.03.20 10:40:00 - [253] Edited by: Zaskarr on 20/03/2008 10:40:33 Edited by: Zaskarr on 20/03/2008 10:40:10 I support removing of local. But introduce a module which would detect scanning and raise an alarm. Or on similar note, old game Allegiance, which is now free BTW, has a stealth icon which disappears when your ship is detected by an enemy. __________________ How do I shot web?
Amanda Blue Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.20 10:57:00 - [254] So instead of Jita getting spammed with WTSs & contracts we get the whole constellation doing it? No thanks, keep local.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:02:00 - [255] Originally by: Theladder It looks like people are looking for easy ganks here Where? Did you even read the thread? Someone stating "everyone will get ganked" doesn't make it true. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:05:00 - [256] Originally by: Amanda Blue So instead of Jita getting spammed with WTSs & contracts we get the whole constellation doing it? No thanks, keep local. The thing is most items sell via contracts anyway. "WTS XYZ item" rarely actually brokers a sale. Having traded in various goodies for about a year or so in Jita, I can honestly say i've sold 2 items spamming local. The issue is really that people like to shout about their wares in an environment that is self advertising. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:07:00 - [257] Edited by: Kerfira on 20/03/2008 11:12:15 Originally by: Asuka Smith Originally by: Atsuko Yamamoto This is a GAME folks, entertainment, not work. Local isn't that bad, people still get ganked, get away, dock up, and so on. I just don't want to put that much serious work into something I do for fun. Flying 30 jumps in 0.0 until you find someone who is stupid enough to keep ratting instead of going to a SS sounds like work to me... Non-consensual PVP is what makes this game hardcore. Local is the anathema to non-consensual PVP. Also, why should 0.0 mining not be harder? 0.0 last I checked is supposed to be risky, but I see more hulks getting blown in empire than in 0.0 Your argument completely ignores reality and devolves into: "I want people to line up so I can shoot them!" You say "0.0 mining should be harder". Why is that limited to mining? Why shouldn't it be "0.0 hunting should be harder"? Your other argument "I see more hulks blown up in empire than 0.0" should also give you a hint that mining in 0.0 is already TOO hard! The ignorance of yours I'm pointing out is the classic lion-zebra comparison. If the zebras are too easy for the lions to catch, soon there'll be no zebras. So the zebras evolved to be alert and being fast. Basically the same for miners/ratters. They're alert (watches local), and are aligned to get out (fast). Mining/ratting/exploring/etc. in 0.0 has to have a relatively low risk. If people loose their ship 50% of the times they go out to make money, they'll all move to high-sec and run L4's. What'll you hunt then? Given the difficulty of getting a ship to 0.0, 50% is probably way too high too. 10% is probably even still too high. The 'Local' question is not a matter of absolutes (ie. stay/go). I do see the problems with local, but until there is a complete redesign of how a lot of things work in 0.0 (and empire too), I haven't seen any better solutions than what we have currently. There has to be a balance between prey and hunter. We have a reasonably nice balance now (as we still score kills when roaming), so the problems with local is more about the realism of it than the balance. In essence, a smart/alert player (and 'smart/alert' is NOT equal to 'willing to spam the scan button for hours on end') should not be gankable except by a smarter player. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:13:00 - [258] You miss the point Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:18:00 - [259] Originally by: Asuka Smith Originally by: Atsuko Yamamoto If mining was harder minerals would be worth more, and I would have fun mining for massive profits in 0.0 but always being on my toes. You are of cause completely ignoring mineral generation in high-sec. High-sec mining supplies probably 90% of the fuel and low-end minerals used in EVE, and mission running supplies a fair amount of the high-ends. As said before, a simple removal of local is a dead solution. It'll not work! A lot of other game mechanics has to be changed, probably something like a fairly significant rewrite of how EVE works, before local as we know it today can be changed.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:24:00 - [260] Originally by: Kerfira You are of cause completely ignoring mineral generation in high-sec. High-sec mining supplies probably 90% of the fuel and low-end minerals used in EVE, and mission running supplies a fair amount of the high-ends. As said before, a simple removal of local is a dead solution. It'll not work! A lot of other game mechanics has to be changed, probably something like a fairly significant rewrite of how EVE works, before local as we know it today can be changed.... I was just wondering if you sig is intended as an ironic counter-point to you post? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:29:00 - [261] heh I thought the same avon Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:30:00 - [262] Originally by: Asuka Smith Let me give you guys a scenario here... I am mining in a hulk in 0.0 I see a neutral/hostile in local I warp to SS 1/10 I warp to SS 2/10 ... I warp to SS 10/10 I warp to SS 11/10 (the first replacement I made) and continue on my cycle for fifteen minutes, warping to the next spot as soon as I arrive and making more safe-spots the whole time so I never use the same one twice. You cannot kill me, ever. And if I had a cloak fitted (Ie. a ratting ship setup) it would be EVEN EASIER for you to never kill me, ever. If one of you can come up with a solution to that without the removal of local let me know, otherwise local has got to go because only fools and the people who want to fight are going to be losing ships, which is the whole problem. So a smart and alert person can with current game mechanics avoid getting ganked? THIS CANNOT BE!!!!! Nerf local!!!! We want to be able to kill everyone we find when roaming!!! Your argument is stupid.... While there are some minor problems with local, just removing it would not work. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:35:00 - [263] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Kerfira You are of cause completely ignoring mineral generation in high-sec. High-sec mining supplies probably 90% of the fuel and low-end minerals used in EVE, and mission running supplies a fair amount of the high-ends. As said before, a simple removal of local is a dead solution. It'll not work! A lot of other game mechanics has to be changed, probably something like a fairly significant rewrite of how EVE works, before local as we know it today can be changed.... I was just wondering if you sig is intended as an ironic counter-point to you post? Not really But 'hard and unforgiving' has to be measured up against realities. If generating revenue in 0.0 is too hard compared to empire (I actually already thing it is, due to L4 missions), nobody will do it, and what'll we hunt then? Oh, and btw, I'm completely FOR nerfing empire ISK/resource generation by 50-75%, PLUS making transport of minerals/ice from empire to 0.0 WAY more difficult! Resources used in 0.0 should largely be produced there. THAT would mean a lot more targets to hunt! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Caleese 101 Industries space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:38:00 - [264] The problem isn't that local is an intel tool, it's that it's an intel tool that requires no skill or involvement from the player. ----------------- Think of someone you consider of average intelligence... now realise this. Half the worlds population is dumber than that person. How does the world survive such stupidity?
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.20 11:42:00 - [265] Originally by: Caleese The problem isn't that local is an intel tool, it's that it's an intel tool that requires no skill or involvement from the player. It does require involvement. He has to watch it..... Ratting for 5-6 hours..... If he stops watching for 5 minutes and someone hostile enters local, he's dead! This is basically pretty close to what it should be. An alert/smart player (and this is not equivalent to 'willing to spam the scan button every 5 seconds') should only be gankable by a smarter player. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:01:00 - [266] Originally by: Celeste Coeval I'm sorry I see nothing that you are posting adequately countering the points raised for local's removal. All these 'points' are based on the (faulty) assumption that people will still continue to rat/mine as they are now even if they become much more vulnerable. If it is not profitable (due to losses) to rat/mine in 0.0, what faulty sense of logic makes you think people will continue doing so? Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:04:00 - [267] Originally by: Kerfira All these 'points' are based on the (faulty) assumption that people will still continue to rat/mine as they are now even if they become much more vulnerable. If it is not profitable (due to losses) to rat/mine in 0.0, what faulty sense of logic makes you think people will continue doing so? More vunerable by remaining hidden unless actively looked for? How does that work then? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:07:00 - [268] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Kerfira This is basically pretty close to what it should be. An alert/smart player (and this is not equivalent to 'willing to spam the scan button every 5 seconds') should only be gankable by a smarter player. None of my suggestions included button spamming, and yet they advocate a replacement to local. I even thoughtfully made local less effective as system security rating drops so that the impact on the most anti-risk players would be minimal. The main problem I have with local is that the information it provides bears no relation how much effort a player puts in to remaining hidden. I ship sitting on a gate has to accept that they are likely to be detected as being in the system .. but some guy cloaked 100AU from the nearest celestial object should not be revealed as being in the system. It is the same with all covert operations. Why would people invest much in cool game features such as covert cynos and black-ops jump-bridges, when they will instantly appear in local anyway, thus revealing their presence? Oh, I agree with you about what the 'game reality' problems with local are, and I'm not arguing against sensible solutions to that (in fact I'd like if it happened). But as I said I AM arguing against the people who just want local removed without any other changes. I believe that the balance between hunter and prey is basically correct right now, with the problem being too few prey because of other factors (like easy high-sec resource generation). That's why I also think that a change in how local works has to be accompanied by changes/balancing to how a lot of other things in EVE work. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:12:00 - [269] Edited by: Kerfira on 20/03/2008 12:13:12 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Kerfira All these 'points' are based on the (faulty) assumption that people will still continue to rat/mine as they are now even if they become much more vulnerable. If it is not profitable (due to losses) to rat/mine in 0.0, what faulty sense of logic makes you think people will continue doing so? More vunerable by remaining hidden unless actively looked for? How does that work then? Because I'm arguing against a person who just want local removed and all other things being left as they are. If that happens, the prey has to spam the scan button (and this only gives him a 13AU radius which is f-all use against a cov-ops), while the hunter just has to enter system (the map will give him an indication someone is there), use either the in-built scanner or a scan probe, warp to target. So, it becomes marginally more difficult for the hunter, but massively more difficult/dangerous for the prey. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.03.20 12:13:00 - [270] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Celeste Coeval I'm sorry I see nothing that you are posting adequately countering the points raised for local's removal. All these 'points' are based on the (faulty) assumption that people will still continue to rat/mine as they are now even if they become much more vulnerable. If it is not profitable (due to losses) to rat/mine in 0.0, what faulty sense of logic makes you think people will continue doing so? Because thats what you do in eve. The frequency of gank will not increase, it will stay the same. Removing local does not make hunting targets easier. Originally by: Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.

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