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Jennai
The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 03:09:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Commander 598 If one was to remove local, what would be really nice is the standard scanner being on screen and picking up everything within 5 AU (That's the range right?) and slowing down warp a bit because the average ship crosses 5 AU in about an eye blink, thus making it completely useless, and/or a 50km random warp exit on anything that isn't a bookmark, gate, station (Assuming this whole make belts and whatever scan only that I keep hearing about becomes a reality).
it's like 12 or 14 AU, and warping takes long enough already.
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Hortoken Wolfbrother
Free Lapland The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2008.03.20 03:20:00 -
[212]
I'm very for removing local.
Its a ridiculously stupid intel tool. Removing it would make it easier to catch ratters you found, yet at the same time make it harder to find them. Itd open a whole bunch of new strategies involving cloaks and stealthy movements which would ad a huge new layer of strategy to combat that i would find enjoyable. It'd actually make cloaking ships much better, and probably even fix the currently quite lame blackops ship.
One things absolutely sure, itll bone macro farmers in 0.0. Good riddance is the least i can say to that.
It'll also make a lot more fights happen. Lots of fights atm are avoided because you look at local and know it goes one way or another. Without that to rely on, there be a lot more engagements that happen for better or worse :P. I for one would enjoy the violence whatever end of it im on.
I hope ccp doesn't wuss out and give the macro farmers the get out of jail card they need with local.
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Commander 598
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 03:24:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Jennai
Originally by: Commander 598 If one was to remove local, what would be really nice is the standard scanner being on screen and picking up everything within 5 AU (That's the range right?) and slowing down warp a bit because the average ship crosses 5 AU in about an eye blink, thus making it completely useless, and/or a 50km random warp exit on anything that isn't a bookmark, gate, station (Assuming this whole make belts and whatever scan only that I keep hearing about becomes a reality).
it's like 12 or 14 AU, and warping takes long enough already.
Too long? On average I think it usually only takes like 10ish seconds to go from gate to gate...that's kinda short for a game that advertises the vastness of space.
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Jennai
The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 03:31:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Commander 598 Too long? On average I think it usually only takes like 10ish seconds to go from gate to gate...that's kinda short for a game that advertises the vastness of space.
you seem to have something seriously wrong with your sense of time.
138000 km warp in a recon when already aligned and up to speed is 19 seconds from "warp drive active" to the (WARPING) indicator on the speedometer going away. 36.6 AU is 39 seconds.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 03:43:00 -
[215]
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/03/2008 03:44:10
Originally by: Razin
You are filling the idea with unnecessary content and then declaring it a failure. Sounds familiar? The ranged scanner solution I alluded to certainly does not have to provide all this information.
No, it really does. You have to have corp/alliance information. You have to have advanced warning significantly greater than the 3 seconds that a 14 AU scan provides you[a 100 AU warp can be crossed in about 10 seconds by a tackling interceptor, making even this amount very iffy]. You have to have the ability to see cloaked targets[which is actually impossible with the current mechanics]
If you don't the system doesn't work. The ability of ratters to produce would be removed.
Quote:
I think the problem here is your choice of definition for a 'decent chance'. In my opinion the instant and free intel provided by current Local is way and above 'decent chance' and into 'spoon feeding' territory.
How many times do you think you can enter a system with a ratter in it? How long does it takes to make a profit off a ratting battleship? If you can't avoid them the majority of the time, then profitability will be reduced to zero very quickly.
edit: Jennai, something is seriously wrong with your sense of time. 19 seconds for 138k warp is way way way too much, try 5 seconds at the most.
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Skraeling Shortbus
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.03.20 03:54:00 -
[216]
Edited by: Skraeling Shortbus on 20/03/2008 03:55:05 leave local as it is... sort of.
Cloaking ships, covops,recons etc.. dont show up. Everyone else does.. let scouts actually be able to scout.
fix ctrl-q to avoid combat
fix noncloaking ships cloaking... macro ravens etc.
Love to the Assault Frigate! |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.03.20 04:46:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Goumindong No, it really does. You have to have corp/alliance information. You have to have advanced warning significantly greater than the 3 seconds that a 14 AU scan provides you[a 100 AU warp can be crossed in about 10 seconds by a tackling interceptor, making even this amount very iffy]. You have to have the ability to see cloaked targets[which is actually impossible with the current mechanics]
If you don't the system doesn't work. The ability of ratters to produce would be removed.
YouÆre making an assumption that the interceptor would know exactly where to warp to.
Corp/alliance information does not have to be provided at a system-wide range to be useful. Your warning comes when the local count changes (someone else enters the system). Presumably the ænewÆ scanner will show ship-type and other info as it comes into range. What you do with all that information is up to you (youÆd certainly have the option to line-up to warp-off instantaneously û something that many miners/ratters currently do anyway when someone enters the system). How much of an advance warning do you get when you jump into a newly formed gate camp?
(If Local is changed in this manner, I wouldnÆt have any problems with some method of scanning for cloaked ships)
...
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Jennai
The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 04:47:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Goumindong
edit: Jennai, something is seriously wrong with your sense of time. 19 seconds for 138k warp is way way way too much, try 5 seconds at the most.
I used a stopwatch, starting as soon as I heard the "warp drive active" voice and stopping when the speedometer no longer said (WARPING).
arazu reaches its peak speed on the short warp after 5 seconds, immediately begins decelerating, is on grid at 13 seconds, and is controllable at 19 seconds.
on the 36.6 AU warp, it reaches its cruising speed of 3.7AU/s at 8 seconds, begins decelerating at 18 seconds, is on grid at 32 seconds, and is controllable at 39.
max scan range is 2,147,483,647 km = 14.35 AU. an arazu will be within scan range of its destination for 24 seconds before coming out of warp ... but it's an arazu, and someone in a belt with no local wouldn't even know it was there unless they had an alt on the gate.
any recon gang willing to go through the tedium of scanning lots of empty belts will get really easy kills. if everyone shows up in constellation chat, a few mostly-afk cloakers will have the same effect on an entire constellation that they do on a single system now.
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Asuka Smith
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.03.20 05:06:00 -
[219]
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 20/03/2008 05:09:04 Let me give you guys a scenario here...
I am mining in a hulk in 0.0
I see a neutral/hostile in local
I warp to SS 1/10
I warp to SS 2/10
I warp to SS 3/10
I warp to SS 4/10
I warp to SS 5/10
I warp to SS 6/10
I warp to SS 7/10
I warp to SS 8/10
I warp to SS 9/10
I warp to SS 10/10
I warp to SS 11/10 (the first replacement I made) and continue on my cycle for fifteen minutes, warping to the next spot as soon as I arrive and making more safe-spots the whole time so I never use the same one twice.
You cannot kill me, ever. And if I had a cloak fitted (Ie. a ratting ship setup) it would be EVEN EASIER for you to never kill me, ever.
If one of you can come up with a solution to that without the removal of local let me know, otherwise local has got to go because only fools and the people who want to fight are going to be losing ships, which is the whole problem. Not to mention making the only alliance fights stand-up napoleonic ATTACKERS HERE--> pewpewpewpew <--DEFENDERS HERE , with absolutely no strategy besides blobs and primaries and the grand strategy of "hm shall we attack their shipyards at system A and crash the node or their shipyards at system B and crash the node".
I reiterate, local needs to be removed and replaced by Constellation chat, and in Constellation chat it must be forced "recent speakers only" mode. The poster above me points out something great that will happen, instead of letting a hundred guys control an entire region because they can watch intel channels and hit any hostile coming through the choke-points the major alliances will be forced to only control as much space as they can effectively guard, which will open up HUGE swathes of 0.0 that currently sit unoccupied because the "owners" block all access and then never use them.
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Jennai
The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 05:14:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Asuka Smith Not to mention making the only alliance fights stand-up napoleonic ATTACKERS HERE--> pewpewpewpew <--DEFENDERS HERE , with absolutely no strategy besides blobs and primaries and the grand strategy of "hm shall we attack their shipyards at system A and crash the node or their shipyards at system B and crash the node".
strategic fleet ops would still be node-crashing blob vs blob. the only difference would be many more covops alts parked on gates, and more alt spies. neither of these things is particularly desirable.
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Asuka Smith
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.03.20 05:17:00 -
[221]
Absolutely right they might find a way around it, but do you think the major alliances have enough covert ops alts to park across 100 systems and scan every 5-10 minutes? I mean realistically it will take scans every single sixty seconds in most systems, because a fleet of 100 could warp in, warp to next gate, and warp out within two minutes. And if you plan to see that you have to be sitting and watching and waiting all day every day.
I doubt even BoB has a hundred players willing to watch all their border worlds like that.
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El'Niaga
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.20 05:22:00 -
[222]
Removing Local will result in at least a loss of a third of subscriptions within 90 days, the game can't take that kind of hit and expect the same quantity of new content.
First off stop trying to hunt the hulk down. Its not like he has a choice. Assuming he's selling his ore on the market everyone can buy it, he has no choice as to who gets it. (Same with any product).
You will never defeat the farmers. They come to every game and generally they adapt much more quickly and efficiently than the general populace to changes. The sad fact to is that without them the ships and modules you fly would probably cost 4 or 5 times what they do now, and you'd have immense shortages. (You'd also have extreme difficulty maintaining all those 0.0 POSs....). If you change the rules they'll adapt.
They are a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. The problem is people with money are willing to spend that money to gain an advantage within a virtual reality or game. It is sad that some feel they need to do this, it's like the guy that sticks a couple 100s under his side of the board in Monopoly every time you play, or the guy that stacks the deck for a rummy card game. They feel that they have to get ahead whatever the costs. The end to them justifies the means. It is a social issue. Unfortunately being a social issue you will never beat it with rules mechanics in a game.
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Asuka Smith
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.03.20 05:26:00 -
[223]
Originally by: El'Niaga Removing Local will result in at least a loss of a third of subscriptions within 90 days, the game can't take that kind of hit and expect the same quantity of new content.
First off stop trying to hunt the hulk down. Its not like he has a choice. Assuming he's selling his ore on the market everyone can buy it, he has no choice as to who gets it. (Same with any product).
You will never defeat the farmers. They come to every game and generally they adapt much more quickly and efficiently than the general populace to changes. The sad fact to is that without them the ships and modules you fly would probably cost 4 or 5 times what they do now, and you'd have immense shortages. (You'd also have extreme difficulty maintaining all those 0.0 POSs....). If you change the rules they'll adapt.
They are a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. The problem is people with money are willing to spend that money to gain an advantage within a virtual reality or game. It is sad that some feel they need to do this, it's like the guy that sticks a couple 100s under his side of the board in Monopoly every time you play, or the guy that stacks the deck for a rummy card game. They feel that they have to get ahead whatever the costs. The end to them justifies the means. It is a social issue. Unfortunately being a social issue you will never beat it with rules mechanics in a game.
This has nothing to do with macros, I mine in a hulk in a belt and I am a real guy who just likes industry and market PVP more than shooting you.
This has to do with me playing a game with about as much risk as checkers because the local system makes it impossible to kill anyone who is not looking to risk their ship on purpose. Basically this game promises non-consensual PVP and local removes that.
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Jennai
The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 05:29:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Asuka Smith Absolutely right they might find a way around it, but do you think the major alliances have enough covert ops alts to park across 100 systems and scan every 5-10 minutes? I mean realistically it will take scans every single sixty seconds in most systems, because a fleet of 100 could warp in, warp to next gate, and warp out within two minutes. And if you plan to see that you have to be sitting and watching and waiting all day every day.
I doubt even BoB has a hundred players willing to watch all their border worlds like that.
no one's going to have alts out all the time, only when they know there's a major fleet op coming. an alt spy in the fleet and on teamspeak would make all the alts unnecessary. having even more spies would make FCs less willing to tell people what the objective is and what's going on, and no one likes going on fleet ops where you just sit there in silence for an hour until you're told to load long range ammo and warp to a covops with no idea of what you're about to land on.
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El'Niaga
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.20 05:32:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Asuka Smith
Originally by: El'Niaga Removing Local will result in at least a loss of a third of subscriptions within 90 days, the game can't take that kind of hit and expect the same quantity of new content.
First off stop trying to hunt the hulk down. Its not like he has a choice. Assuming he's selling his ore on the market everyone can buy it, he has no choice as to who gets it. (Same with any product).
You will never defeat the farmers. They come to every game and generally they adapt much more quickly and efficiently than the general populace to changes. The sad fact to is that without them the ships and modules you fly would probably cost 4 or 5 times what they do now, and you'd have immense shortages. (You'd also have extreme difficulty maintaining all those 0.0 POSs....). If you change the rules they'll adapt.
They are a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. The problem is people with money are willing to spend that money to gain an advantage within a virtual reality or game. It is sad that some feel they need to do this, it's like the guy that sticks a couple 100s under his side of the board in Monopoly every time you play, or the guy that stacks the deck for a rummy card game. They feel that they have to get ahead whatever the costs. The end to them justifies the means. It is a social issue. Unfortunately being a social issue you will never beat it with rules mechanics in a game.
This has nothing to do with macros, I mine in a hulk in a belt and I am a real guy who just likes industry and market PVP more than shooting you.
This has to do with me playing a game with about as much risk as checkers because the local system makes it impossible to kill anyone who is not looking to risk their ship on purpose. Basically this game promises non-consensual PVP and local removes that.
It also doesn't give the PVP tools needed to merchants as I pointed out before. You don't get the option of boycotting sales to anyone. If you had that option you'd see a very different EVE today.
If you are looking for non consensual PVP then I'd suggest using a ship other than the Hulk, which though it can bring down a cruiser, is no match for a well fitted PVP ship.
Realize that the guy in a Hulk is supplying you with the materials needed to conduct your PVP. He has no choice who buys his goods, unless he just builds for himself. If he puts it up on the market anyone can buy it, and that's not PVP for him. Go find a target that at least has a chance to fight back, a hulk fitted for mining is not going to be fighting back very long.
It seems you are more interested in easy kills than real PVP.
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Asuka Smith
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.03.20 05:34:00 -
[226]
So it sounds like there will be a lot smaller blob-free harassment gangs formed between mates who trust eachother going through the border regions of 0.0... Making it the lawless hell where fortune and infamy are made daily, with big gains and big losses every few minutes somewhere in the galaxy...
Sounds like the EVE I dream about when I log out at night.
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Marcus TheMartin
Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.03.20 05:35:00 -
[227]
Originally by: El'Niaga
It seems you are more interested in easy kills than real PVP.
This just in MINERS AREN'T PEOPLE!
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Jennai
The Greater Goon GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 05:54:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Asuka Smith So it sounds like there will be a lot smaller blob-free harassment gangs formed between mates who trust eachother going through the border regions of 0.0... Making it the lawless hell where fortune and infamy are made daily, with big gains and big losses every few minutes somewhere in the galaxy...
... unless you're a new player, or recently joined the alliance, or someone doesn't like you. then you can't go on any ops because you're a spy.
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Asuka Smith
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.03.20 06:08:00 -
[229]
Edited by: Asuka Smith on 20/03/2008 06:12:23 Edited by: Asuka Smith on 20/03/2008 06:08:46 Sounds like people will only work with those they trust and the blob situation will decrease, the super-power alliance will see it's downfall, and EVE will return to being a lawless "Mad Max" universe that I think is so great.
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Commander 598
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 06:23:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Jennai
Originally by: Goumindong
edit: Jennai, something is seriously wrong with your sense of time. 19 seconds for 138k warp is way way way too much, try 5 seconds at the most.
I used a stopwatch, starting as soon as I heard the "warp drive active" voice and stopping when the speedometer no longer said (WARPING).
arazu reaches its peak speed on the short warp after 5 seconds, immediately begins decelerating, is on grid at 13 seconds, and is controllable at 19 seconds.
on the 36.6 AU warp, it reaches its cruising speed of 3.7AU/s at 8 seconds, begins decelerating at 18 seconds, is on grid at 32 seconds, and is controllable at 39.
max scan range is 2,147,483,647 km = 14.35 AU. an arazu will be within scan range of its destination for 24 seconds before coming out of warp ... but it's an arazu, and someone in a belt with no local wouldn't even know it was there unless they had an alt on the gate.
any recon gang willing to go through the tedium of scanning lots of empty belts will get really easy kills. if everyone shows up in constellation chat, a few mostly-afk cloakers will have the same effect on an entire constellation that they do on a single system now.
Yeah, I wasn't counting those 10ish second points when it says your warping but your not really going anywhere...
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Asuka Smith
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.03.20 06:30:00 -
[231]
Also the problem with a cloaked arazu halting all activity in a system is a cloak problem not a local problem. Local is a bandaid to cloaks being broken and you should not justify one broken game mechanic with another.
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Pushtan
The BlackHand Order FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.03.20 06:38:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus And btw, if WoW can do it, I'm sure Eve can too (with respect to not having/needing a local chat channel the likes of which we have now. Yes, I know WoW has 'local chat', but it's not the intel tool it currently is in Eve.
You people are telling me that WoW noobs are superior to Eve players? Impossible.
Hang on....did he just use a Wow -> Eve -> Wow example....?
Tell you what, come hang around GW for a few weeks and hide your local chat, k? see you there
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Lrd Byron
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.20 06:46:00 -
[233]
If ratters and miners are so concerned with being killed if there is no local, why don't they bring a few friends or hire a few people. If I want to kill anyone in low sec I am going to need more than just me, why should ratters and miners be so profitable solo.
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Scorched Evil
R A G E
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Posted - 2008.03.20 06:47:00 -
[234]
Remove local. It was a stupid move to introduce it. It does nothing but destroy small gang and solo pvp.
CYVOK > All you station jockies better get out their and start killing these idiots
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umop 3pisdn
Fnck the blob.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 06:54:00 -
[235]
Originally by: BLACKBAN Swaping Local to constellation will increase the problem. Because not the enemy will safe spot as soon as you are in the constellation, instead of seeing you in local, and it will omit the need of having scouts 1 jump out.
So removing Local is a good damn idea. Replacing it with Constellation chat is the worst thing that can ever happen to EVE
What needs to happen here is for Local to be removed, and New modules to increase max range scan to be added, maybe a dedicated BC ships for that, Not frigates because than they will be used for scouting one easy mode.
Yep this is it, with no local/constellation you will die more, lifes hard, get a ******* helmet. Or are we all carebears?
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Marcus TheMartin
Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.03.20 06:54:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Pushtan
Originally by: Bellum Eternus And btw, if WoW can do it, I'm sure Eve can too (with respect to not having/needing a local chat channel the likes of which we have now. Yes, I know WoW has 'local chat', but it's not the intel tool it currently is in Eve.
You people are telling me that WoW noobs are superior to Eve players? Impossible.
Hang on....did he just use a Wow -> Eve -> Wow example....?
Tell you what, come hang around GW for a few weeks and hide your local chat, k? see you there
make sure you didn't forget your liquid ozone this time
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Vorian Atraties
Orion Trade Syndicate Solaris Consortium
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Posted - 2008.03.20 06:55:00 -
[237]
you guys are asking that local be removed and new scanning tools be added so people can detect if somebody comes into local. Well I just have to ask what's the diff here. if you go into a system you show up in local.. your way. if you go into system you show up on scan. to me that just seams like a change to make a change for no good reason. I personaly can see where you are comeing from. however I like local. I like chatting with people. And yes I do like useing it as an intel tool. I personaly think that the day they remove it would be the day i left the game. and i know your going to say blah blah blah go away carebear.. but meh is how i feel.
vor
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umop 3pisdn
Fnck the blob.
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Posted - 2008.03.20 06:56:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Scorched Evil Remove local. It was a stupid move to introduce it. It does nothing but destroy small gang and solo pvp.
The truth in this post ^^^
Forget the effect it will have on blob wars.
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Asuka Smith
StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.03.20 07:03:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Vorian Atraties you guys are asking that local be removed and new scanning tools be added so people can detect if somebody comes into local. Well I just have to ask what's the diff here. if you go into a system you show up in local.. your way. if you go into system you show up on scan. to me that just seams like a change to make a change for no good reason. I personaly can see where you are comeing from. however I like local. I like chatting with people. And yes I do like useing it as an intel tool. I personaly think that the day they remove it would be the day i left the game. and i know your going to say blah blah blah go away carebear.. but meh is how i feel.
vor
No one is saying we should not have a local channel period (or some sort of system to talk to pilots in the same system and shoot the breeze), we are saying it should not an intel tool. Make local only show players that choose to speak.
The reason for the change is for there to be PVP. You want the intel you will have to do more work to get it, I am all about making things in EVE take a lot of time and effort and energy (it motivates people to cut corners and get sloppy, sloppy leads to interesting situations, right now there are not very many interesting situations).
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CelticKnight
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.20 07:19:00 -
[240]
that would make any operations a real pain. the ratters & PVPers would spend 24/7 scanning instead of FIGHTING.
Getting rid of a player to safespot and cloak, effectively making them INVINCIBLE is a pain. give us a module, similar to a cloak that turns cloaks OFF. 50KM range, and make cloaked ships scannable (omg i can hear the recon pilots who sitting in ratting systems ****ing the locals off, scream!)
It would keep the cloaked pilots on thier toes (GOOD! going to sleep in a system for 24 hours is irratating.. does nothing for defence) and allow the defenders to actually DEFEND.
Removing local would remove most of the fun of the game, hunting, being hunted. ... smacktalk (in fleet ops i enjoy the banter! or teasing the fools in the station.... also knowing there is actually someone IN that station..)
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