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Malar HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:05:00 - [31] Originally by: Madrux why is it that in europe the monthly fee has not been scaled acordingly with the global exchange rate. based on euro to us dollar, the us are paying 9.6 euros a month but europeans are paying 14.99, for exactly the same service. please explain... Europeans are paying more because of the VAT. Thats what CCP told me a few years ago. Which EU country has a VAT that follows the EUR/USD exchange rate is a big question to me - which i asked, and which i never got an answer to - but still.. you've got your answer now. Happy? :) --------------------------------------------- Comments in this post are mine and mine only
Malar HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:10:00 - [32] Originally by: Happy Merchant well lets see, here in the US our nation minimum wage is what 5.45 an hour... what is the minimum wage in europe... something like 10 euro .... I could be wrong but you need to lower your minimum wage to match ours before you make a stink about unfair pay. Actually, in Hungary the minimum is more like 2-2.50 an hour, so i guess i beat you there. Oh contrary to popular belief, WE DO LIVE IN EUROPE. Just not on the west side. EAST SIDE IS THE BEST. --------------------------------------------- Comments in this post are mine and mine only
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Malar Originally by: Happy Merchant well lets see, here in the US our nation minimum wage is what 5.45 an hour... what is the minimum wage in europe... something like 10 euro .... I could be wrong but you need to lower your minimum wage to match ours before you make a stink about unfair pay. Actually, in Hungary the minimum is more like 2-2.50 an hour, so i guess i beat you there. Oh contrary to popular belief, WE DO LIVE IN EUROPE. Just not on the west side. EAST SIDE IS THE BEST. Heh, it is 1.85 EUR / hour in Czech rep. (also an EU member).
J Valkor Invicta.	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:51:00 - [34] Those eastern countries are also growing quickly economically as opposed to the stagnant west.
Shintai Balad Naran Orbital Shipyards	Posted - 2008.03.25 22:53:00 - [35] Originally by: Madrux why is it that in europe the monthly fee has not been scaled acordingly with the global exchange rate. based on euro to us dollar, the us are paying 9.6 euros a month but europeans are paying 14.99, for exactly the same service. please explain... Perhaps you should have said "why is it that in non european countries the monthly fee has not been scaled acordingly with the global exchange rate." I dont know if you actually noticed. The dollar is dropping like virgins to a prom. So if anything CCp could raise the dollar price to 20-25$. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Daziel Iaar PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.25 23:28:00 - [36] Edited by: Daziel Iaar on 25/03/2008 23:29:44 I'm from the uk so i don't mind paying the extra money, just another thing we can point towards when the US claim to be the best nation on Earth :p and besides i feel sorry for the majority of the americans having to have george bush as the president :p "His Will Be Done"
Pooka United Space Aillance USA	Posted - 2008.03.25 23:31:00 - [37] didn't hear anyone from the UK saying they felt sorry the Americans when we were paying more they them 2 years ago! PROMISES MADE PROMISES KEPT BRING THE BRIGHT STAR BACK!!!
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.25 23:50:00 - [38] Edited by: Kerfira on 25/03/2008 23:50:45 Originally by: Andrue Originally by: Madrux thanx for the website, perchasing now. i love a good work around the system Do you also love reducing CCP's revenue by 50%? ...because that's what you're doing. If you're based in the EU you are also breaking the law although the chance of being caught and prosecuted is pretty slim. So many people fail to understand the problem. It isn't that EU citizens are paying extra - it's that US citizens are paying less. The current state of the dollar is hurting CCP. The more people who switch to payments in dollars the more harm is done to them. The solution for CCP would be pretty simple. If they really wanted to play fair, they'd pick one currency and sell subscriptions and timecards in that currency (doesn't matter which, Euro/$/ISK...). Resellers like SC would then have to handle the currency conversion, but everyone around the world would pay the same. What I do dislike is that with this as so much else, Europeans are ripped off while Americans gets things cheap (look at electronics, software etc.), which in essence means that WE are paying for THEM. Heard the phrase 'Rip-off Britain'? VAT is one thing, but the difference in prices is too great to ignore anymore for me. Most likely I'll change my 4 accounts to time-cards from SC too.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Bimjo SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2008.03.26 00:11:00 - [39] Originally by: Andrue Edited by: Andrue on 25/03/2008 20:59:18 Originally by: Bimjo Edited by: Bimjo on 25/03/2008 19:57:45 Originally by: Andrue Do you also love reducing CCP's revenue by 50%? ...because that's what you're doing. If you're based in the EU you are also breaking the law although the chance of being caught and prosecuted is pretty slim. woah there Mister policeman proof ? UK C&E rules. Quote: If that was the case then shatteredcrystal and others would be bound by law to add VAT or be refused access to the EU. They are, under international treaty. Basically everyone knows that we have to get along so by-and-large countries aggree to play nice and help each other out. (Un)fortunately it's too costly to administer and not currently worth the fuss but it's still illegal and, yes, the US is supposed to enforce it exactly as the EU is supposed to enforce trading rules requested by the US. Quote: Also CCP would have kicked up a fuss about it or told us it is against the EULA. It isn't too difficult to mark GTCs with "outside EU" digits that refuse to install on EU accounts. The EULA is not concerned with the law - it's just a set of rules that CCP have dreamt up for people wanting to play their game. It is also not CCP's responsibility to collect VAT on other companies transactions. You bought the GTCs from Shattered Crystal so SC is supposed to collect the VAT. That's the whole point of it. It's collected at point of sale. Even if CCP could determine whether an account was EU or US (how?) there is no legal requirement for them to implement the system you propose because they aren't the ones selling the GTCs. fair point but "Under the terms of the VAT on E-Commerce Directive, most electronically supplied services are subject to VAT" doesn't mean everything is subject to VAT
Marcus TheMartin Deadly Addiction Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.26 00:12:00 - [40] You get the added bonus of not being associated with america

Ulstan Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.03.26 01:28:00 - [41] Quote: why is it that in europe the monthly fee has not been scaled acordingly with the global exchange rate. Name one game where they change the subscription price based on fluctuations in currency value.
Ebola Jihad Altruism. Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 02:14:00 - [42] EU's pay more as they are better at EVE.........
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.03.26 03:09:00 - [43] Edited by: Wrayeth on 26/03/2008 03:14:34 Edited by: Wrayeth on 26/03/2008 03:12:41 Originally by: Andrue So many people fail to understand the problem. It isn't that EU citizens are paying extra - it's that US citizens are paying less. Um...if this were the case, where is my extra money? Seriously, tell me. Just because the Euro and the Pound are worth more in relationship to the Dollar doesn't mean that U.S. citizens pay any more or less of their income for their subscriptions. A cheeseburger, for instance, still costs roughly the same in the U.S. today as it did six months or a year ago. Gas prices are up, yes, but that's true for the entire world, too, and doesn't signify as far as your claim is concerned. Again, we're not paying less than we were previously. My $15.00 a month is still $15.00 coming out of my account, not the $9.00 you seem to think it is. Also, why didn't you complain a couple years ago when the Dollar was stronger than the Euro? After all, it was the U.S. citizens having to "pay more" then. Oh, wait...that's because it "benefitted" you. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Karl Luckner Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.26 03:45:00 - [44] Just take advantage of the situation and do what everybody else does. Buy stuff in the US for monopoly money.
Barbens Blue. Blue Federation	Posted - 2008.03.26 03:59:00 - [45] Its your choice how you want to spend your $15 a month. In the end, i've been paying $15 a month for the last 3 years. Has the economy changed how much i pay per month? Nope, not a penny, still $15. Economically, have i noticed a change in the value of $15? Hell no. Your $15 should still get you its amount in goods. In your local economy have you noticed the change in $15? Chances are hell no. It may be worth more US, but in your own country, its still only $15. If you dont like it, buy a GTC from a US vendor, that way you can spread your money out farther. If you dont like the fact the USD is the standard currency, then your fighting a losing battle. BaRbEnS
matty01 Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.03.26 05:04:00 - [46] i'm American, i should pay less then other countries also, LOL at the America hating going on in here, you must be wicked jealous of us you're tears make me laugh :D
Jurgen Cartis Interstellar Corporation of Exploration Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.03.26 05:04:00 - [47] Edited by: Jurgen Cartis on 26/03/2008 05:05:43 Cough Buy GTCs in USD and pay the same as Americans Cough -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.03.26 05:07:00 - [48] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Edited by: Jurgen Cartis on 26/03/2008 05:05:43 Cough Buy GTCs in USD and pay the same as Americans Cough I can't believe everyone hasn't figured this out already. This might be the most epic whine thread of all time.
matty01 Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.03.26 05:09:00 - [49] buy American! then whine about our government or whatever it is you all hate about us ha
mishkoff State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.26 06:30:00 - [50] This is a good thread. Lots of love from across the pond

Den enjen MAFIA	Posted - 2008.03.26 06:55:00 - [51] I pay less then the americans. Since the dollar is at an all time low ($ 1 = Ç 1.50) i buy my GTC online, with paypal. And guess what, a 30 day GTC cost me Ç 10.50. So who's paying more --------------------------------------------
W3370Pi4 Lords Of Kaos Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.26 08:00:00 - [52] google "shattered crystal" and stop whinning its usually a lot easier to complain than to propose/ find a solution by yourself
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.03.26 08:20:00 - [53] We Europeans have a far stronger economy with better regulation and discipline. Surely we can afford to keep our American brethren afloat until they sort out their affairs. in the meantime use ShatteredCrystal .. very speedy service and you get to talk to an American whose job actually involves knowing where stuff is geographically. Quite a thrill after hearing my country is a city in another more than once:D We have been paying almost 100% more for our petrol for years, but you don't hear any complaints from motorists (who are usually very loud in the public debate)
Malar HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2008.03.26 08:27:00 - [54] Actually its more like a question of principle. In 'normal' stores, you have a set price in a given currency. Now when you choose to buy a product, your own currency gets converted into the currency in which the store is selling. That is, if you are using a different currency. Generally everyone pays the same, as if its 10 usd, then the americans will pay 10 usd, the europeans will pay its equivalent in eur, the hungarians will pay it equivalent in huf etc. Problems start if you sell stuff in two different currencies, but the price in those currencies do not follow the international exchange rates. In that case, which currency you are charged in when you buy the product might influence the price of the product. Since im not a US resident, neither an economist, someone could tell me why CCP would sell their game both in USD and in EUR except for the simple reason to make it convenient for the people using these two currencies. Small EVE billing history for those new: In the beginning, there was the USD. CCP charged people happily in USD and everything was fine, everyone was happy. Then one day, CCP realized, that all those people in europe are not paying taxes after their purchase, so they quickly introduced the EUR price and made european customers use that instead. It was roughly 10-15% more than the USD price at that time, which they said was a result of the added VAT. Now the fun starts. As US economy crumbles and european economy fluorishes, the difference between the EUR and USD grows bigger and bigger. The 15% is soon to be 20, then 25, then 30, then even more.. until today where the ratio between the two is lot closer to 2:1 than to 1:1. People were always wondering which EU country CCP pays VAT for, as none of them have ever had a VAT that follows the exchange rate of EUR:USD. It only became a major concern lately however, when people realized that they can get 3 accounts for the price of 2 if they pay for their accounts in USD instead of EURs. As for the US guy who said that the game isnt cheaper for him than it was.. well dude, it IS cheaper for you. As would you have to pay in EUR instead of USD, you would pay like 20+ USD for each account. Not because the game got more expensive, but because your economy and your currency sucks. This however works the same for those livign in 'less important' countries. If say HUF gets weaker compared to other currencies, i do have to pay more relative to my own income. If HUF gets stronger, i do have to pay less. Thing is, atm there are two different prices for the same product. One price is 14.95 EUR if you are stupid and pay with the credit card - this price has VAT and Stupidity tax included in it - or 9.71 EUR if you take the time and get a GTC from an american source. Now this thread in itself is a joke, as realistically the best thing CCP can do - for themselves - is to get rid of the different US price and charge everyone 14.95 for their product regardless of the currency involved. Which would mean a nice near 50% price increase for those who were paying in USD until now. Why is the thread a joke? Cuz its kicking yourself in your own balls people. You are essentially whining to CCP to close a loophole that allows you to get EVE a lot cheaper than you would get it otherwise. :) --------------------------------------------- Comments in this post are mine and mine only
Karlemgne Flying Under the Influence Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2008.03.26 09:32:00 - [55] Originally by: Robacz Originally by: Malar Originally by: Happy Merchant well lets see, here in the US our nation minimum wage is what 5.45 an hour... what is the minimum wage in europe... something like 10 euro .... I could be wrong but you need to lower your minimum wage to match ours before you make a stink about unfair pay. Actually, in Hungary the minimum is more like 2-2.50 an hour, so i guess i beat you there. Oh contrary to popular belief, WE DO LIVE IN EUROPE. Just not on the west side. EAST SIDE IS THE BEST. Heh, it is 1.85 EUR / hour in Czech rep. (also an EU member). Really, that sucks. A few questions though: How much do you pay for your health insurance? What happens when you're sick and can't go to work? Do they pay you? Do you get any paid vacation? What would happen if you were to say, lose your job? Do you have an efficient public transportation system? Really I'd like to know how much of your take home wages go into rent, health insurance bills, car payments, etc? Oh that's right, you don't have to worry about any of that ***. In fact, America, for most* Americans sucks ass. -Karlemgne
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.03.26 09:44:00 - [56] Quote: Now the fun starts. As US economy crumbles and european economy fluorishes European economy flourishing? Since when? You consider 10% unemployment great, and 15% acceptable. Here, that would be the beginning of another Great Derpression. _________________________________________________________
Kerfira University of Caille	Posted - 2008.03.26 09:54:00 - [57] Originally by: Voculus Quote: Now the fun starts. As US economy crumbles and european economy fluorishes European economy flourishing? Since when? You consider 10% unemployment great, and 15% acceptable. Here, that would be the beginning of another Great Derpression. The European countries that has sensible labor laws are flourishing.... The main reason is that if it's relatively easy to get rid of employees (like 1-2 months notice), companies are far more inclined to employ new people. Countries with outdated labor laws like Germany, France and most of the southern EU countries doesn't have sensible labor laws (or rather, the unions are way too strong).... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Estel Arador AFK	Posted - 2008.03.26 09:57:00 - [58] Originally by: Wrayeth Um...if this were the case, where is my extra money? Seriously, tell me. Just because the Euro and the Pound are worth more in relationship to the Dollar doesn't mean that U.S. citizens pay any more or less of their income for their subscriptions. A cheeseburger, for instance, still costs roughly the same in the U.S. today as it did six months or a year ago. Gas prices are up, yes, but that's true for the entire world, too, and doesn't signify as far as your claim is concerned. Again, we're not paying less than we were previously. My $15.00 a month is still $15.00 coming out of my account, not the $9.00 you seem to think it is. You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. How much you earn is simply irrelevant. You are paying CCP for a service and you pay based on what providing that service costs to CCP, you do not pay based on your income. CCP has to use your weak dollars to pay for their costs in ISK or GBP (as they're based in Iceland/UK). Originally by: Malar People were always wondering which EU country CCP pays VAT for, Iceland, as per agreement in the European Economic Area. Skills Explained
Andrue Hammers Academy	Posted - 2008.03.26 11:06:00 - [59] Originally by: Bimjo Originally by: Andrue <waffle snipped> fair point but "Under the terms of the VAT on E-Commerce Directive, most electronically supplied services are subject to VAT" doesn't mean everything is subject to VAT That's true. Also looking into a bit more I'm not sure that it's quite right to say that it's illegal. It seems to be a grey area. I think a more accurate description would be: The EU wants it levied on its members. As part of the global economy non-member countries are expected to help out because we are all supposed to play fair and cooperate. The US should scratch our back because we will scratch theirs. What I don't know is how firmly that relationship is established. It may just be a 'gentleman's agreement' or it may be codified in international law. It's also not clear what level of enforcement the EU could expect. Would US courts be prepared to go so far as to penalise SC? Whatever - I think all we can really say is that it's supposed to happen according to the EU but it doesn't always happen so people can get away with it. Tbh what I'm more concerned about is the affect on CCP. If everyone switched to paying in dollars it would reduce their income by 50%. That's a helluva hit for any company to take. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Hammers Academy	Posted - 2008.03.26 11:15:00 - [60] Originally by: Wrayeth Edited by: Wrayeth on 26/03/2008 03:14:34 Edited by: Wrayeth on 26/03/2008 03:12:41 Originally by: Andrue So many people fail to understand the problem. It isn't that EU citizens are paying extra - it's that US citizens are paying less. Um...if this were the case, where is my extra money? Seriously, tell me. Just because the Euro and the Pound are worth more in relationship to the Dollar doesn't mean that U.S. citizens pay any more or less of their income for their subscriptions. A cheeseburger, for instance, still costs roughly the same in the U.S. today as it did six months or a year ago. Gas prices are up, yes, but that's true for the entire world, too, and doesn't signify as far as your claim is concerned. Again, we're not paying less than we were previously. My $15.00 a month is still $15.00 coming out of my account, not the $9.00 you seem to think it is. Also, why didn't you complain a couple years ago when the Dollar was stronger than the Euro? After all, it was the U.S. citizens having to "pay more" then. Oh, wait...that's because it "benefitted" you. Okay, here's a theoretical example of how it works. I can't be bothered to get the historical data on exchange rates so I can only demonstrate the maths: It all comes down to the fact that CCP need Isk. Not the in-game kind but the Icelandic Krona. When subscribers use any other currency it has to be converted at some point using the exchange rate. Initial setup: $1=Ç1=Isk 1. 10,000 subscribers paying $10 each is Isk 100,000. 10,000 subscribers paying Ç10 each is Isk 100,000. Total for CCP = Isk 200,000 Move forward a few years, the dollar has tanked: Ç2=1=Isk 1 NB:Another way of saying this is that it costs two dollars to buy one Euro or one Isk. or A dollar is now only worth half a Euro. 10,000 subscribers paying $10 each is Isk 50,000 (it takes $2 to buy Isk 1). 10,000 subscribers paying Ç10 each is Isk 100,000. Total for CCP = Isk 150,000 That's why the fall in the dollar hurts CCP. Now if everyone switches to paying by dollars you end up with: 20,000 subscribers paying $10 each is Isk 100,000 (it takes $2 to buy Isk 1) Total for CCP = Isk 100,000. VAT is a factor in this but has not been the major factor for well over a year now. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.



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