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Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:28:00 - [61] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/04/2008 12:28:48 Originally by: Dheorl Yes standard does mean no light drones and yes I will be using the fit I always use. It will be a draw. A harbinger has a web and kill pop your drones. Most of the cases you wouldnt be able to stop it from docking or getting back to the gate. It's not really realistic. Why not against an omen? Atleast it can fight back. -------------------------------------- [Video] Angel of War
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:29:00 - [62] If you feel it would be unfair with you in a harb i'd be happy to fight you in a maller seeing as this argument was originally about taking down a cruiser.
Caelum Dominus Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:30:00 - [63] Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 18/04/2008 12:31:11 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I know the curse is crap because I've seen it getting raped by anything from a harbinger, zealot to other hacs. It has little point in a gang and it is crap solo. It is not a good ship. It is half azzed at best. I've seen a Vagabond lose to a Crow, a Malediction lose to a Maulus and a Raven lose to a Wolf. That doesn't mean the ships are bad, as I'm sure most people can imagine. Have you really based your entire whining crusade on seeing a Curse lose to other ships?
Pilgrippa 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:31:00 - [64] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I know the curse is crap because I've seen it getting raped by anything from a harbinger, zealot to other hacs. It has little point in a gang and it is crap solo. It is not a good ship. It is half azzed at best.
Caelum Dominus Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:32:00 - [65] Originally by: Pilgrippa Originally by: Lyria Skydancer I know the curse is crap because I've seen it getting raped by anything from a harbinger, zealot to other hacs. It has little point in a gang and it is crap solo. It is not a good ship. It is half azzed at best. I know - beats me, too.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:32:00 - [66] Originally by: Dheorl If you feel it would be unfair with you in a harb i'd be happy to fight you in a maller seeing as this argument was originally about taking down a cruiser. Why are you trying to pick cruisers without drone bay? It is quite normal to face cruisers with drone bays. -------------------------------------- [Video] Angel of War
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:33:00 - [67] Originally by: Caelum Dominus I've seen a Vagabond lose to a Crow, a Malediction lose to a Maulus and a Raven lose to a Wolf. That doesn't mean the ships are bad, as I'm sure most people can imagine. Have you really based your entire whining crusade on seeing a Curse lose to other ships? Ofcourse not but the core problem with the curse is that it can't inherently run the modules it is designed to run. All other recons can. They need to fix that. -------------------------------------- [Video] Angel of War
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:34:00 - [68] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer e] A harbinger has a web and kill pop your drones. Most of the cases you wouldnt be able to stop it from docking or getting back to the gate. It's not really realistic. The Sentinel have already killed your cap, so what are you killing his drones with?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:35:00 - [69] Originally by: Inertial Originally by: Lyria Skydancer e] A harbinger has a web and kill pop your drones. Most of the cases you wouldnt be able to stop it from docking or getting back to the gate. It's not really realistic. The Sentinel have already killed your cap, so what are you killing his drones with? Standard harb is injected. -------------------------------------- [Video] Angel of War
Caelum Dominus Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:35:00 - [70] Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 18/04/2008 12:40:43 Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 18/04/2008 12:40:02 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ofcourse not but the core problem with the curse is that it can't inherently run the modules it is designed to run. All other recons can. They need to fix that. ...

Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:35:00 - [71] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Caelum Dominus I've seen a Vagabond lose to a Crow, a Malediction lose to a Maulus and a Raven lose to a Wolf. That doesn't mean the ships are bad, as I'm sure most people can imagine. Have you really based your entire whining crusade on seeing a Curse lose to other ships? Ofcourse not but the core problem with the curse is that it can't inherently run the modules it is designed to run. All other recons can. They need to fix that. Wait? It can't run a Neut or a Nos? It can't run a Tracking Distruptor? Please explain...
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:38:00 - [72] Originally by: Inertial Wait? It can't run a Neut or a Nos? It can't run a Tracking Distruptor? Please explain... Mount 1-2 TDs, mwd and neuts in highs on a curse Mount 2xwebs and a tp and mwd on a huginn Mount the usual stuff on a rook full rack of ecm etc After that you can compare who runs out of cap first. Rook and huginn can pretty much perma run their mods. -------------------------------------- [Video] Angel of War
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:39:00 - [73] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Dheorl If you feel it would be unfair with you in a harb i'd be happy to fight you in a maller seeing as this argument was originally about taking down a cruiser. Why are you trying to pick cruisers without drone bay? It is quite normal to face cruisers with drone bays. Thats the point though. I wouldn't on purpsoe engage a cruiser which is likely to have t2 light drones. That still leaves me open to attack mallers, harbs and rax's with absolutly no worry of dying which also happen to all be reasonably common PvP ships. All they can do is sit there and try and pop my drones whilst they slowly die. I can fight ships with drone bays if I don't expect the user to have decent drone skills which leave me still able to attack omens, caracals and moas (I could of course attack stuff like augorors but you never see them and yes you probably could kill them in a t1 frig)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:41:00 - [74] Originally by: Dheorl Thats the point though. I wouldn't on purpsoe engage a cruiser which is likely to have t2 light drones. That still leaves me open to attack mallers, harbs and rax's with absolutly no worry of dying which also happen to all be reasonably common PvP ships. All they can do is sit there and try and pop my drones whilst they slowly die. I can fight ships with drone bays if I don't expect the user to have decent drone skills which leave me still able to attack omens, caracals and moas (I could of course attack stuff like augorors but you never see them and yes you probably could kill them in a t1 frig) Well thats the thing. You have to catch one of those ships at a belt or theyll get away. I mean many of those ships would be killable with a beam sader too. -------------------------------------- [Video] Angel of War
Caelum Dominus Amarr	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:42:00 - [75] Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 18/04/2008 12:44:06 Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 18/04/2008 12:42:36 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Inertial Wait? It can't run a Neut or a Nos? It can't run a Tracking Distruptor? Please explain... Mount 1-2 TDs, mwd and neuts in highs on a curse Mount 2xwebs and a tp and mwd on a huginn Mount the usual stuff on a rook full rack of ecm etc After that you can compare who runs out of cap first. Rook and huginn can pretty much perma run their mods. You don't really think a Curse that's able to eat through an entire cruiser-sized capacitor in one cycle without having to make massive sacrifies in terms of speed and tank would be balanced, do you? That's far more disabling than being webbed or jammed, and should come at a cost. Personally, I can perma-run one neutralizer (+ everything else on the ship) and two for a good two minutes by sacrificing four slots to cap-enhancing modules (two lows, two med) and I think that's fine.
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:45:00 - [76] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Dheorl Thats the point though. I wouldn't on purpsoe engage a cruiser which is likely to have t2 light drones. That still leaves me open to attack mallers, harbs and rax's with absolutly no worry of dying which also happen to all be reasonably common PvP ships. All they can do is sit there and try and pop my drones whilst they slowly die. I can fight ships with drone bays if I don't expect the user to have decent drone skills which leave me still able to attack omens, caracals and moas (I could of course attack stuff like augorors but you never see them and yes you probably could kill them in a t1 frig) Well thats the thing. You have to catch one of those ships at a belt or theyll get away. I mean many of those ships would be killable with a beam sader too. A few of them could probably permatank a beamsaders damage though (depedning on setup of course) which is where the sentinels cap warfare comes into play. Anyways, whats your point? It doesn't mean a sentinel can't kill them. I mean to kill most things a vaga has to catch them in a belt otherwise anything cruiser and up can jump or dock but it doesn't mean that it's not a reasonable PvP ship.
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:48:00 - [77] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Inertial Wait? It can't run a Neut or a Nos? It can't run a Tracking Distruptor? Please explain... Mount 1-2 TDs, mwd and neuts in highs on a curse Mount 2xwebs and a tp and mwd on a huginn Mount the usual stuff on a rook full rack of ecm etc After that you can compare who runs out of cap first. Rook and huginn can pretty much perma run their mods. It depends on your fit. But with all skills level 5, I can't get it to permarun with 3 Nuets and 2 Noses, but with 3 Noses and 2 Neuts, I can get all modules to permarun...
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:50:00 - [78] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well thats the thing. You have to catch one of those ships at a belt or theyll get away. I mean many of those ships would be killable with a beam sader too. A Avatar can also kill those ships. Just because ship A will kill ship B ship C isn't obsoleted. If that was the case, everyone would immediatly skill for a Avatar. The sentinel is a mini Curse, and it performs it job nicely.
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:51:00 - [79] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 18/04/2008 12:28:48 Originally by: Dheorl Yes standard does mean no light drones and yes I will be using the fit I always use. It will be a draw. A harbinger has a web and kill pop your drones. Most of the cases you wouldnt be able to stop it from docking or getting back to the gate. It's not really realistic. Why not against an omen? Atleast it can fight back. I've had bad experience popping warriors with medium guns (electron blasters in my case, and yes I had a 90% web). But then I could not gain any speed to lose transversal as those where the drones from a Rapier... But then the tracking disruption you'd be subjected to would be pretty bad too... I'm not so sure on the draw. On a side note can you fraps it when it happens? It's looks like a matter of interest for many people.
Inertial The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.04.18 12:55:00 - [80] Edited by: Inertial on 18/04/2008 12:56:00 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well thats the thing. You have to catch one of those ships at a belt or theyll get away. I mean many of those ships would be killable with a beam sader too. Oh, and if you catch a Maller or a Thorax on a gate with a interceptor they can still get away. I ones accidentely jumped into high-sec with my Enyo, I still managed to microwarpdrive back to the gate, and got out with barely any structure damage. Basically, catching people on a gate won't help a Interceptor or a Nano Hac either, unless they are wartargets or you are in 0.0 or they are -5.

Pilgrippa 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:02:00 - [81] Well the sentinel is a fun ship, but a standard ghetto crow will kill it pretty easy. Even a webbed, neuted crow at 1km will still kill it before it's 4 light drones can return the favour. The other inties and AF's it can deal with nicely thanks to tracking disruptors, but thats provided your setup has enough cap regen to maintain your stuff after your target is dry.
AsfALT Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:03:00 - [82] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Idiotic and repetitive ideas based on... wait for it... nothing! It is very rarely that someone on a forum manages to convince me that he/she must be a complete moron...i generally have faith in the human brain... congratulations! Your persistence is admirable tho!
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:06:00 - [83] Originally by: Pilgrippa Even a webbed, neuted crow at 1km will still kill it before it's 4 light drones can return the favour. How do you figure that one out - crow has about 100 more effective hp but does about 20 less dps.
Pilgrippa 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:19:00 - [84] Originally by: Dheorl Originally by: Pilgrippa Even a webbed, neuted crow at 1km will still kill it before it's 4 light drones can return the favour. How do you figure that one out - crow has about 100 more effective hp but does about 20 less dps. Lots of Sisi tests. Step away from the EFT. A crow will get a couple volleys off before you can catch him(if you do), and a couple more before your drones start damaging him. It's kinetic bonus works against your kinetic weakness. If you tank for kinetic, you'll never catch him, and he'll still kill you.
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:22:00 - [85] Originally by: Pilgrippa Originally by: Dheorl Originally by: Pilgrippa Even a webbed, neuted crow at 1km will still kill it before it's 4 light drones can return the favour. How do you figure that one out - crow has about 100 more effective hp but does about 20 less dps. Lots of Sisi tests. Step away from the EFT. A crow will get a couple volleys off before you can catch him(if you do), and a couple more before your drones start damaging him. It's kinetic bonus works against your kinetic weakness. If you tank for kinetic, you'll never catch him, and he'll still kill you. Sorry, when you said neuted sitting at 1km I thought you meant as in just a straight out slug fest from 100%hp down to nothing.
Pilgrippa 0utbreak	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:35:00 - [86] Originally by: Dheorl Sorry, when you said neuted sitting at 1km I thought you meant as in just a straight out slug fest from 100%hp down to nothing. Oh right, well that's not really a realistic scenario, so it's not really what I meant. It's simply the ideal place for a sentinel (or any ship) to have a crow. To get a crow to 1km and in your clutches with a sentinel requires taking a lot of damage first, which is the main reason why a crow will usually win a straight up fight.
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:49:00 - [87] We gona have a duel then lyria or do you accept that there are quite a few cruisers that the sentinel can reasonably kill. Hell, soon I'll be able to engage any cruiser in mine but for the moment I'm staying away from T2 light drones when I can avoid it.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.18 13:54:00 - [88] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/04/2008 13:54:14 Originally by: Pilgrippa Originally by: Dheorl Sorry, when you said neuted sitting at 1km I thought you meant as in just a straight out slug fest from 100%hp down to nothing. Oh right, well that's not really a realistic scenario, so it's not really what I meant. It's simply the ideal place for a sentinel (or any ship) to have a crow. To get a crow to 1km and in your clutches with a sentinel requires taking a lot of damage first, which is the main reason why a crow will usually win a straight up fight. Not just a crow, lots of other ships can also easaly kill a sentinal. A Plated kestrel would create a lot of problems as well. But main issue is cathing targets. Sentinal lacks range on nos/neuts and more importantly, its just not reasonable to expect a sentinal to catch 10k/sec crows etc. Sentinal is basically a poor mans ship. The sentinal is more a afterthought than anything else. I don't know why someone would boher to fly one unless they cannot afford a heretic/cepter or even a curse, and even then it does not make that much sense. If the sentinal could use a cov ops cloak, then yes, it suddenly becomes useful. It fills in a niche as a combat cov ops. But as it stands, it basically looks like little thought is put in how someone is meant to use one in real pvp as opposed to "lets fly this for a laugh"
Dheorl The Scope	Posted - 2008.04.18 14:04:00 - [89] Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 18/04/2008 13:54:14 Originally by: Pilgrippa Originally by: Dheorl Sorry, when you said neuted sitting at 1km I thought you meant as in just a straight out slug fest from 100%hp down to nothing. Oh right, well that's not really a realistic scenario, so it's not really what I meant. It's simply the ideal place for a sentinel (or any ship) to have a crow. To get a crow to 1km and in your clutches with a sentinel requires taking a lot of damage first, which is the main reason why a crow will usually win a straight up fight. Not just a crow, lots of other ships can also easaly kill a sentinal. A Plated kestrel would create a lot of problems as well. But main issue is cathing targets. Sentinal lacks range on nos/neuts and more importantly, its just not reasonable to expect a sentinal to catch 10k/sec crows etc. Sentinal is basically a poor mans ship. The sentinal is more a afterthought than anything else. I don't know why someone would boher to fly one unless they cannot afford a heretic/cepter or even a curse, and even then it does not make that much sense. If the sentinal could use a cov ops cloak, then yes, it suddenly becomes useful. It fills in a niche as a combat cov ops. But as it stands, it basically looks like little thought is put in how someone is meant to use one in real pvp as opposed to "lets fly this for a laugh" Oh no, you have to stay clear of missile ships... so does basically every other nano ship in the game. 20km isn't exactly that bad a range NOS wise, same as hyena gets with it's webs. Also sentinel can kill more stuff than ceptors can solo. If a crow came up to my vengeance (just an example) and starting letting of missiles I'd sit there and laugh and wait for it to give up. If a sentinel did it I'd start thinking O **** and trying lobbing jav rockets at it to little effect whilst loosing all my cap and dieing.
Noisrevbus Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.04.18 14:35:00 - [90] Edited by: Noisrevbus on 18/04/2008 14:50:47 Edited by: Noisrevbus on 18/04/2008 14:49:42 Someone else pointed out one (for this discussion, when you begin comparing ships) very important thing in another EAS thread: EAS (along with Recons) do very specific things that often work well together. The Sentinel does cap warfare, and wether you'd prioritize webbing or ECM for your group is quite irrelevant, when you would probably want the cap warfare and turret-killing as well; especially in a frigate sized gang or similar. Bonuses: Sure, you can always debate if the Sentinel (and possibly Keres) could do with a slight range boost to reach as far as unbonused ships or halfbonused ships do, thus imposing on their role (i mean, i think a +5km neut from the Sentinel and +10km scram on the Keres sound perfectly acceptable to enforce their typical bonus a little). That goes for all EAS though, where Kitsune ECM isn't better than other options, eg., a Blackbird (ECM being a bit exclusive with it's amount of tech one platforms specialized for ECM of course). Bonus type: But, cap warfare will remain cap warfare and if you don't appreciate what it does then don't fly the ship. A Sentinel still does cap warfare reasonably well, and cap warfare have a distinct role or situations where you want it along (even if it's not considered as standard today as it used to be, the same as most EW modules). Roles: Cap warfare is highly effective against cap-sensitive ships, and still a good option for smaller ships to combat a larger ship in groups. There are also several other modules that may be underappreciated while being perfectly viable (you often hear comments about missiles being bad for PvP, for example, while they may just simply be unapplicable to your strategy or may not fit into the group). Secondary bonuses: The TD bonus on the Sentinel help other slower moving frigates, in particular other EAS (or AF's should you dare to bring them into a gang of this sort) with the Kitsune being a good example of a ship that would benefit from the TD's while your gang employ cap warfare to further weaken the target under it's generally lower group-damage output. Let's not forget that while certain ships have double module bonuses, small ships do not have the slots to make for good omni-ships while they usually do their one or two roles very well within a group. Summary: That just further implicate how these ships augment each other, more so than being contending against each other. Get a Keres for initial tackle and sensor-supression, get a Hyena to help the Keres keep tackle, get a Kitsune to help keep the tacklers alive, get a Sentinel to help keep the Kitsune alive (together with the Keres) and also weaken the tanking capacity of your target. Then, mix in Ceptors, Frigates, Destroyers (Dictors) and even a few select Assault ships, into the blend for sheer DPS or in secondary supporting roles. All in all, i'd want all of the EAS in a larger frigate-gang, doing their different jobs.



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