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LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:24:00 - [1] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 18/05/2008 11:36:06 I was just discussing with a friend on ventrilo, why eve is starting to get kind of boring, as new features have been implemented. The problem, at least I face, is that the game doesn't really reward smart people. The game is by no means complex. In fact, I think the game has been moving from being fairly complex, to almost wow-like. But then again. There isn't any mmorpg out there, which is better than eve. All of them are wow clones. So this question came to mind, why do people tell people on the forums, to go back to wow, when we already have a game which is quickly approaching wow-like gameplay? And why is CCP moving that way? I would love to think they are trying to please people by making more interesting features, making it more complex etc, rather than attracting all the wow people(No offence, I know a lot of wow players who does eve too, and are quite smart) The obvious example is how CCP is blalantly ignoring the industry side of eve, which is the only real complexity we have left. Yet it's extremely shallow really. Is EvE doomed in that way, and is the gaming industry(Including CCP) overlooking the minority who's got a brain? EDIT: People are taking the topic WAY too serious. This is not a whine, it's just a mindgame. While it's an issue in my mind, it doesn't mean eve is doomed.
Jaggeh Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:27:00 - [2] id like you to meet my friend his name is conclusion, now the only way to reach him is by jumping....
Jorah Vulture Minmatar Wrecking Ball Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:27:00 - [3] Originally by: LaVista Vista I was just discussing with a friend on ventrilo, why eve is starting to get kind of boring, as new features have been implemented. The problem, at least I face, is that the game doesn't really reward smart people. The game is by no means complex. In fact, I think the game has been moving from being fairly complex, to almost wow-like. But then again. There isn't any mmorpg out there, which is better than eve. All of them are wow clones. So this question came to mind, why do people tell people on the forums, to go back to wow, when we already have a game which is quickly approaching wow-like gameplay? And why is CCP moving that way? I would love to think they are trying to please people by making more interesting features, making it more complex etc, rather than attracting all the wow people(No offence, I know a lot of wow players who does eve too, and are quite smart) The obvious example is how CCP is blalantly ignoring the industry side of eve, which is the only real complexity we have left. Yet it's extremely shallow really. Is EvE doomed in that way, and is the gaming industry(Including CCP) overlooking the minority who's got a brain? I'm surprised that a serious CSM candidate is posting a whine like this. You even mentioned WoW!
Jakus Cemendur Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:29:00 - [4] Probably a question of time, resources and money. They could invest a lot of dev time, resources and money into improving the industry side of things, but few people really do the industrial thing. Whereas investing dev time and money into things such as factional warfare will probably affect more people who play the game, and draw in more people who are interested in the game. EVE's moved beyond being a small niche MMO, and unfortunately that means the game will change if CCP want to keep the growing playerbase interested. ------
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:31:00 - [5] Originally by: Jorah Vulture I'm surprised that a serious CSM candidate is posting a whine like this. You even mentioned WoW! I'm not whining. I'm just hoping to provoke the devs a bit.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:34:00 - [6] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur EVE's moved beyond being a small niche MMO, and unfortunately that means the game will change if CCP want to keep the growing playerbase interested. That is kind of the thing I'm worried about myself. Is CCP moving away from the original idea of the game, and moving towards something so trivial, it's not even fun to play? I mean, some people think wow is fun, and I guess I can see their perspective. But it's just so repititive and doesn't require too much brain(I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I got a boring feeling, playing it)
Jakus Cemendur Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:37:00 - [7] Originally by: LaVista Vista That is kind of the thing I'm worried about myself. Is CCP moving away from the original idea of the game, and moving towards something so trivial, it's not even fun to play? I mean, some people think wow is fun, and I guess I can see their perspective. But it's just so repititive and doesn't require too much brain(I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I got a boring feeling, playing it) Well with the next expansion being FW I would disagree with them making it less fun to play. FW seems to promise more small gang PvP which is perhaps the funnest part of EVE(or at least to EVE). Though of course you as an industrialist aren't really interested in that. The problem with industrialists is that being a niche in the player base you are likely to get a thrown a bone every now and then and that's it. I'm sure the devs would love to devote loads of time to everything, but they won't be able to, as they only have so many devs and only so much time. ------
Dormuth Purifier FREE GATES ACADEMY Omega Alliance	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:39:00 - [8] This little comic shows the difference between WoW and EVE players: Until it's stay this way, i dont worry.
Jorah Vulture Minmatar Wrecking Ball Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:39:00 - [9] Edited by: Jorah Vulture on 18/05/2008 11:39:48 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Jakus Cemendur EVE's moved beyond being a small niche MMO, and unfortunately that means the game will change if CCP want to keep the growing playerbase interested. That is kind of the thing I'm worried about myself. Is CCP moving away from the original idea of the game, and moving towards something so trivial, it's not even fun to play? I mean, some people think wow is fun, and I guess I can see their perspective. But it's just so repititive and doesn't require too much brain(I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I got a boring feeling, playing it) (I'll try to make a valid point, but I'm afraid my english will not be enough, just bear with it and try to understand me :P) You're losing the perspective. It's not complex for you. Everything gets tiring some day. Everything is boring after hunders of hours on it. However, it's an odissey for new players. I've been on lots of MMOs and believe me, EVE is complex, and deep, at least for the newcomers. Making it even more complex would cross the line and keep newcomers from joining. I think CCP is following the right direction now. Graphic upgrades, ambulation, war... Appealing features that new customers can soon taste to keep them hooked to the game. It's the best for everyone. It's just like real societies. Who is more important for a community? Younglings or artritic oldies? You always have to bet for the young ones, the future. Older ones are going to die after all.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:40:00 - [10] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Originally by: LaVista Vista That is kind of the thing I'm worried about myself. Is CCP moving away from the original idea of the game, and moving towards something so trivial, it's not even fun to play? I mean, some people think wow is fun, and I guess I can see their perspective. But it's just so repititive and doesn't require too much brain(I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I got a boring feeling, playing it) Well with the next expansion being FW I would disagree with them making it less fun to play. FW seems to promise more small gang PvP which is perhaps the funnest part of EVE(or at least to EVE). Though of course you as an industrialist aren't really interested in that. The problem with industrialists is that being a niche in the player base you are likely to get a thrown a bone every now and then and that's it. I'm sure the devs would love to devote loads of time to everything, but they won't be able to, as they only have so many devs and only so much time. Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm very excited about FW making pvp more approachable, as it helps everybody. Being a PvP'er by profession(I started industry to feed my pvp habbit, but I got VERY hooked). Hopefully CCP will make WoD better, since they seem to be devoting all their good devs on that game.

LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:40:00 - [11] Originally by: Dormuth Purifier This little comic shows the difference between WoW and EVE players: Comic Until it's stay this way, i dont worry. ^ Wins thread.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:43:00 - [12] Originally by: Jorah Vulture (I'll try to make a valid point, but I'm afraid my english will not be enough, just bear with it and try to understand me :P) You're losing the perspective. It's not complex for you. Everything gets tiring some day. Everything is boring after hunders of hours on it. However, it's an odissey for new players. I've been on lots of MMOs and believe me, EVE is complex, and deep, at least for the newcomers. Making it even more complex would cross the line and keep newcomers from joining. I think CCP is following the right direction now. Graphic upgrades, ambulation, war... Appealing features that new customers can soon taste to keep them hooked to the game. It's the best for everyone. It's just like real societies. Who is more important for a community? Younglings or artritic oldies? You always have to bet for the young ones, the future. Older ones are going to die after all. Good point indeed. Can't argue with it really
Jakus Cemendur Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:43:00 - [13] Originally by: LaVista Vista Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm very excited about FW making pvp more approachable, as it helps everybody. Being a PvP'er by profession(I started industry to feed my pvp habbit, but I got VERY hooked). Hopefully CCP will make WoD better, since they seem to be devoting all their good devs on that game. I think it's more likely the devs who've moved to WoD being more interested, probably because it offers them a chance to learn from EVE and make their next game even better. It means that for EVE new devs come in with perhaps a different vision, but this is what happens in the games industry. ------
Charney deGeoff Caldari New Tibet	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:47:00 - [14] A friend of mine once made a great comparison (this might go to waste to those of you who don't play World of Warcraft). EVE general chat reminded me of Orgrimmar chat - "allince is 4 ****in kidz" And that's pretty much how I see it, people really want to think they're elite and that EVE is for the truly hardcore and WoW is for looser kiddies. (of course that's a harsh generalisation, but since you started down that path..) You seem to hint that EVE is unique and original, however many of its features (take the recent CSM feature) are just taken from things that have existed in other games (MUD's have had player elected authorities for a long long time). I don't really care about rewarding "smart" people, that defenition by itself isn't very smart. I wish CCP would make the game more available to wider audiences and other playstyles (inclusing industrialists), but as it might be, keeping it focused to a small niche group (say, for arguments sake, hardcore PvP:ers) might be a good move. Fairly strange post coming from you, I'm used to seeing such subjective navel gazing attitude in your other posts.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:50:00 - [15] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 18/05/2008 11:51:07 Originally by: Charney deGeoff You seem to hint that EVE is unique and original, however many of its features (take the recent CSM feature) are just taken from things that have existed in other games (MUD's have had player elected authorities for a long long time). Everybody copies things. The difference is implementing them in a way which is fun for the consumer. Originally by: Charney deGeoff Fairly strange post coming from you, I'm used to seeing such subjective navel gazing attitude in your other posts. I can't tell if this is good or bad. Either way, I guess you are correct. People are rarely that honest in their posts, about what they think about others(Other than in the CSM forum). I appreciate the honesty
Scilent Enigma Minmatar Vae Victis Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:50:00 - [16] I would say I agree to a certain extent, the game is patch by patch loosing a bit of it's complexity and only letting the annoying features remain. It removed the challenges of probing (good thing in the long run for PvP but it was kind of fun and challenging to triangulate a position before being able to deploy scanprobes) a complexity that I feel is lacking now when you: deploy probe, click Scan button and wait. This could have been made a lot more interesting. Though one of the responses brings up a very valid point as well, everything becomes old and easy given enough time. I would like to add though that there is still a lot of complexity left in the game, the Market for one is, not by game design but by how it is used by the players, a very complex world to explore.
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:52:00 - [17] Quite disappointing to read something like that from your hand, LaVista.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Scilent Enigma Though one of the responses brings up a very valid point as well, everything becomes old and easy given enough time. I would like to add though that there is still a lot of complexity left in the game, the Market for one is, not by game design but by how it is used by the players, a very complex world to explore. Market is indeed one of the most complex things of the game. And if you read the market discussion forum, you will see some fairly deep discussions about it too, which is why I spend more time discussing on forums, than playing the game really This is one of the things I talked about in the evecast interview that I did. The reason I started doing podcasts and EBank, was that it's the only things which are rewarding for me(By no means isk wise, but just having fun and feeling good about it). That is kind of what complexity can do. They are damn rewarding, when you have these "Aha" moments, and can feel good about yourself. It's hard for people to make a difference, in this day and age. Yet I think a lot of people enjoy making a difference.
Feilan Minmatar Wolfkin Omnitechnologies	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:56:00 - [19] In which way has EVE been simplified to lure in the WoW crowd? Frankly, EVE seems a lot more complex to me now than it was a launch. Half of what we have now, was simply not there back then. Moon mining, POSes, Invention and the whole T2 thing etc. etc. Perhaps the real problem is that as we veterans play the game day in and day out, what used to be complicated has now become routine. Thus is seems like the game in turning more and more into WoW. Also, it seems to me that a lot of the complexity in EVE comes not from the game systems themselves, but rather the decisions and planning that lies behind your actions. Anyone can pop in a blueprint and some minerals in order to produce item X, but to actually be successful in selling item X on a large scale, you need to analyze the market and set up logistics in order to maximize your profit.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:56:00 - [20] Originally by: LaVista Vista I think the game has been moving from being fairly complex, to almost wow-like. could you provide 2-3 examples of where you think the game has moved from being fairly complex to being less complex ? just out of interest.

LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:57:00 - [21] Originally by: Ishina Fel Quite disappointing to read something like that from your hand, LaVista. I'm sorry you feel disappointed. It is by no means the intention of this thread. I'm curious why you think so, though. But as I noted, I merely posted this to get a discussion going, about where eve is heading. It has indeed been a small thing of mine, which I have been discussing with a few people, if eve is drifting away from it's original philosophy. And if this is bad or not.
In4r4	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:59:00 - [22] Edited by: In4r4 on 18/05/2008 12:05:43 Edited by: In4r4 on 18/05/2008 12:00:03 EvE can never decend to generic mmo level simply because of the way the game is designed. The likes of WoW have a start , middle , and end game, your more or less hand held through a linear world thats trying to trick you into believing your part of a massive sandbox. While EvE is a massive sandbox, and your given tools to go and make your own fun for yourself, im still here after three years because i know the content comes from the player base, and because of that , there will be no end to laughs , fights and drama.
Scilent Enigma Minmatar Vae Victis Inc.	Posted - 2008.05.18 11:59:00 - [23] Originally by: LaVista Vista It's hard for people to make a difference, in this day and age. Yet I think a lot of people enjoy making a difference. QFT I suppose it is a symptom of the rising subscriber numbers, with more people in the game the individual actions of one player means less and less...
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 12:01:00 - [24] Originally by: Heroldyn Originally by: LaVista Vista I think the game has been moving from being fairly complex, to almost wow-like. could you provide 2-3 examples of where you think the game has moved from being fairly complex to being less complex ? just out of interest. 1. Scan probes 2. The linear path of ship types 3. Decrease of barries to entry overall.
z0de Gallente The Bastards	Posted - 2008.05.18 12:02:00 - [25] Edited by: z0de on 18/05/2008 12:02:12 Don't like it, then quit. gb2/wow, can I have your stuff?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.05.18 12:02:00 - [26] When EVE had a very small subscriber number count, almost everybody was an "expert", at least at the things they were focusing on... the larger the population grows, the average level of expertise in a certain field drops, and "mediocrity" becomes the norm, simply because the "entry barriers" were also continuously DROPPED instead of being RAISED, or at least differentiated. __ CSM candidates - quick reference cards (NEW: spreadsheet) Or just vote for LaVista Vista or Leandro Salazar like I did.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 12:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Scilent Enigma Originally by: LaVista Vista It's hard for people to make a difference, in this day and age. Yet I think a lot of people enjoy making a difference. QFT I suppose it is a symptom of the rising subscriber numbers, with more people in the game the individual actions of one player means less and less... Very right. So can we conclude it's the symptom of CCP not increasing the "height" of the game, but expanding the width of the game? I guess that isn't bad. It's just unfortunate for the veterans(I'm by NO means a veteran, I only started playing wow back early 2006, mind you)
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.05.18 12:05:00 - [28] Originally by: z0de Edited by: z0de on 18/05/2008 12:02:12 Don't like it, then quit. gb2/wow, can I have your stuff? You didn't read my post. I didn't whine about me not liking it. I quite enjoy the complexity that is still left in some areas of the game. But I see them moving away, slowly but steadily. Hence this post.
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2008.05.18 12:17:00 - [29] I don't see any examples of EVE approaching WoW-like gameplay. [WTS] Shares \| Secured ISK Loans
Feilan Minmatar Wolfkin Omnitechnologies	Posted - 2008.05.18 12:21:00 - [30] Originally by: LaVista Vista 1. Scan probes 2. The linear path of ship types 3. Decrease of barries to entry overall. Care to elaborate? I haven't really used scan probes other than for exploration and that whole thing still seems like it would make the "average" WoW player's head explode As for the linear path of ship types. What do you mean? Frigate->Destroyer->Cruiser etc. or? It's still nowhere near WoW's level 1..2..3..4 thing and we all know bigger is not always better in EVE, unlike WoW where an extra level will always make you better in some way without any drawback. As for decreasing barriers, I don't see this as a big problem. Opening up more gameplay options is a good way to keep someone interested for a long time to come. I wonder though, are you refering to T2 production? That whole deal still requires way more brain power than crafting in WoW. I know, because I just recently started working on that and figuring it out was nowhere near as straight forward as gathering 25 hides of fanbois in the troll caves of forum



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