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Robert Kauliford
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:27:00 -
[61]
Sometimes leaders in time of crisis must do the right thing.
Even when it is highly unpopular
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Darius Shakor
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:30:00 -
[62]
Sapph, Shakor is not a leader of any rebels any more, though spiritually he will always remain a hero to freedom fighters for his past actions against the Amarr. And he is not shackled from what I can tell as he has not been arrested by current accounts. God help Midular if he has been without any cause though.
But Elsebeth, you cannot claim all is well when Midular has violated the extent of her powers under Republic law. It is no good saying 'so what, he misses a couple of months' and shrugging when he should not be missing those months at all. Midular does not have the authority to remove him unless he has committed a crime.
I thought you were waiting to see what happens and for facts to surface before making judgements. Seems to me with your acceptance of Shakor's expulsion from the government that you have already made a conclusion.
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Mirkur Draug'Tyr :: Recruitment |
Hae t'Redd
Ishukone Black Watch
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:31:00 -
[63]
Apparently, Midular had more backbone that originally thought. I, and many others figured her as good as gone. Good for her.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:34:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/06/2008 14:35:54
 Originally by: Sapphrine
actually there was another option Elsebeth, Midular could have stood down
As I see it, there were basically three things the prime minister could have done.
First, she would have been within her rights to completely ignore the vote of no-confidence. That would have effectively said "screw you" to everyone opposing her.
Second, she could have done what she did, which is dissolve the government and call for re-election. That option says "I hear you, brothers and sisters, even if I do not agree".
Third, she could have dissolved the government and call for re-election and immediately resigned, leaving her post to someone else for the remaining term of this government. That would have, effectively, said "I agree, I should not lead our people anymore".
The vote of no-confidence was not to her personally, though; it was to her government. Just herself stepping down would not have been the best choice, I suspect. The prime minister does not govern alone, and that would have left all her associates and allies in place, giving rise to suspicions that she is still in power de facto, even if removed de jure.
EDITED to add: Darius, I am not saying "so what if he misses a couple of months". I am merely saying I do not know if he was removed, and if so, why.
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Ezri Filth
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:35:00 -
[65]
Although Midular is a pretty chick I would like to see her dead as well.
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Rathera D'Sarth
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:35:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/06/2008 14:18:31
I would remind everyone that there was a vote of no confidence to the government. The decision to dissolve the parliament, which constituted a call for re-election is quite the proper response to that. If the prime minister had not done that, the same people that are now upset about it would be upset about her not doing anything, and rightly so.
I understand the alarm this instability causes when it happens on this kind of a crucial moment, and the dissatisfaction that the rumors about the expulsion of Malaetu Shakor for the remaining two months of government might cause, but let us not be unreasonable.
The government processes are working as they should.
*Rathera tilts her head to one side, pondering*
I will conceede that I am not as familiar with the political workings of a democracy as I perhaps should be, so if the dissolution of the parliment is the first step towards an actual election, then miss Midular has effectively stepped down and bowed out. I will also conceed that it has not been made 'official' if she did or did not attempt to oust Malaetu Shakor, and the republic's ambassador to Concoord, at the same time. They are unconfirmed reports.
The problem with unconfirmed reports is that they can still get people killed.
Going off of what has been purely confirmed then, I will commend the former prime-minister for effectively stepping down, and opening the way for someone more capable of leading the republic. Not the least devisive way of resigning, but it is an effective one nonetheless.
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:37:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/06/2008 14:38:57
Originally by: Rathera D'Sarth
I will conceede that I am not as familiar with the political workings of a democracy as I perhaps should be, so if the dissolution of the parliment is the first step towards an actual election
Please note, as explained e.g. in this news piece, that this is indeed the law:
Originally by: ISD
Prime Minister Karin Midular defiantly responded to ShakorÆs successful vote of no-confidence by dissolving parliament. The measure requires a call for new elections within two months, as mandated by Republic law.
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Rathera D'Sarth
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:42:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Originally by: Rathera D'Sarth
I will conceede that I am not as familiar with the political workings of a democracy as I perhaps should be, so if the dissolution of the parliment is the first step towards an actual election
Originally by: ISD
Prime Minister Karin Midular defiantly responded to ShakorÆs successful vote of no-confidence by dissolving parliament. The measure requires a call for new elections within two months, as mandated by Republic law.
Linkage
I meant more that I did not know this was a 'standard' way of bringing about new elections, as opposed to a less common method that could be construed as an act of angry defiance.. My appologies again.
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Pezzle
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:50:00 -
[69]
Good for Midular. Shakor and Yun are traitors. I do not see this ending well at all. One of these sides is going to end up dead by the hand of the other. Given the current situation Midular has little time left unless she deals with the rebel faction. They will certainly not hesitate to kill her.
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Robert Kauliford
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:52:00 -
[70]
Dissolution is essential for new elections to be held. It is also generaly standard practice for the existing government to remain in power during the interim.
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Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:55:00 -
[71]
Elsebeth, the vote of no confidence was in her government, headed by her. The premier is the one that takes the fall. It is quite possible to stand down after a vote of no confidence and a party ratified individual to take on the premiership till the next general election in most democracies.
Pezzle, how are they treating the head of the 7th fleet for his actions to holders over there on amarr?
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Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:57:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Robert Kauliford
Dissolution is essential for new elections to be held. It is also generaly standard practice for the existing government to remain in power during the interim.
if you dissolve parliament no one is in power. Hence the unrest. This is why standing down would have been better as parliament would have remained in session and a new leader appointed.
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Robert Kauliford
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.06 14:58:00 -
[73]
And have a new leader chosen behind closed doors in some station?
Hardly very democratic
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Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:01:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Robert Kauliford
And have a new leader chosen behind closed doors in some station?
Hardly very democratic
then a call for a general election could be issued and done in the normal way without dissolving parliament and leaving the republic with no one at the rudder.
Given two bad options, i'd choose the one that doesn't destabilise the entire nation.
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Nachshon
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:02:00 -
[75]
OK, Else, I'll defer to your superior knowledge of Minmatar politics. I suggest the Scope do the same - the article was rather misleading. Midular would be well-advised to issue a correction.
Looks like we'll be having elections in August.
Say, Else, I have a question. Can you nominate someone for Prime Minister against their will?
____________________________________
Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship.
The True Meaning of Freedom
My v |
Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:02:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Darius Shakor
Sapph, Shakor is not a leader of any rebels any more, though spiritually he will always remain a hero to freedom fighters for his past actions against the Amarr.
just to clarify, i meant that he lead the vote of no confidence. That makes him leader of the rebels in the house :)
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Myyona
Ataraxia Pharmacies
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:09:00 -
[77]
I despise those warmongers.
All their talk about "freedom" and "unity" for all Minmatar while their actions are breaking down the Republic from the inside, sending millions into refuge and desperation like our people not have had enough suffering already. How can we give people freedom when we no longer have any place to be free ourselves?
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Nobody can do everything, but everybody can do nothing |
Shira d'Radonis
The Amarr Mission
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:15:00 -
[78]
I find the system you Minmatar use perplexing... how can you simply shut down your government and hold new elections at a time like this? How can you just disperse your deliberative body and leave no one in charge while the wolves are at your door! Say what you will about the Imperial system, at least it provides consistency and continuity.
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ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö
"Our histories, one day, will absolve me..."
- Shira d'Radonis
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Pliskkenn
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:18:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Pliskkenn on 06/06/2008 15:19:30
Midular has removed the only legal means for people of the Republic to replace her. Where have her policys and methods gotten us? Forgive me for saying this but where has the Ray of Matar lead us? The only option I can see for Shakor or another to gain power now is through force, a coup. And that is something that could easily be avoided if she would step down.
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Delictum 23216
San Matari.
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:19:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Myyona
I despise those warmongers.
All their talk about "freedom" and "unity" for all Minmatar while their actions are breaking down the Republic from the inside, sending millions into refuge and desperation like our people not have had enough suffering already. How can we give people freedom when we no longer have any place to be free ourselves?
My, my, my...what clear insight you have my dear.
San Matari Official forums |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:28:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Pliskkenn
Midular has removed the only legal means for people of the Republic to replace her. Where have her policys and methods gotten us? Forgive me for saying this but where has the Ray of Matar lead us? The only option I can see for Shakor or another to gain power now is through force, a coup. And that is something that could easily be avoided if she would step down.
Excuse me? The law calls for a re-election. Even if Shakor is expelled from the current government, what is there to stop him from running in for the new one?
--
Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
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Stitcher
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.06.06 15:42:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Pliskkenn
Edited by: Pliskkenn on 06/06/2008 15:19:30
Midular has removed the only legal means for people of the Republic to replace her. Where have her policys and methods gotten us? Forgive me for saying this but where has the Ray of Matar lead us? The only option I can see for Shakor or another to gain power now is through force, a coup. And that is something that could easily be avoided if she would step down.
You are aware that there will be an election in two months, as per Republic law, right?
I'm not even Minmatar, and I picked that up from the news broadcast.
Seems to me like whoever wrote that article has painted Midular in quite a bad light, focusing more on the dissolution itself rather than its ramifications or reasons. Sensationalist journalism is never a good thing. Hence the extreme reaction across the entire republic.
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Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Grohl Nas
Vronsky Bros and Sons
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Posted - 2008.06.06 16:12:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Grohl Nas on 06/06/2008 16:21:12
nv wrong char
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Makkar
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Posted - 2008.06.06 16:16:00 -
[84]
Well, well, well...
"Be careful what you wish for," I believe is the phrase.
Years ago I was campaigning for this moment, to the point of taking out a hit on Midular to get her out of office. I took Oracle and her allies to the brink of war with the Republic and her loyalists over Midular's policy of appeasement...
It's funny how two years of not being cooped up in a pod can alter your perspectives.
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Cribb
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
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Posted - 2008.06.06 16:23:00 -
[85]
So it finally happend, can't say i'm surprised.
The woman's experation date was long over deu.
She might have given us stability and a false feeling of peace.
Don't forget as long as Amarr and the Amattar still use slave's, no goverment that let's them isn't capable of bringing true peace to Matar.
Now i'm not saying we should kill Midular, just exile her to let's say the Great wildlands. See how the Thukker Tribe think of her.
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When in doubt, play loud
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Shira d'Radonis
The Amarr Mission
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Posted - 2008.06.06 16:26:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Cribb
Now i'm not saying we should kill Midular, just exile her to let's say the Great wildlands. See how the Thukker Tribe think of her.
Or... how about she's given a curt thank you and allowed to retire to the location of her choice? Isn't it enough for her to just be out of power to satisfy those who want a more hardline stance towards the Empire?
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ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö
"Our histories, one day, will absolve me..."
- Shira d'Radonis
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Shira d'Radonis
The Amarr Mission
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Posted - 2008.06.06 16:35:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Stitcher
Seems to me like whoever wrote that article has painted Midular in quite a bad light, focusing more on the dissolution itself rather than its ramifications or reasons. Sensationalist journalism is never a good thing. Hence the extreme reaction across the entire republic.
I'll agree that the article is biased against her, but I don't think it's the reason for the violent protests. I would imagine that those who began rioting had been paying attention to Minmatar-run media rather than this news report.
She has just become immensely unpopular. She has been extremely weak for some time now, and her government and society have been absolutely riddled with rebellious activity ranging from vocal dissent to literal violent uprisings and nearly-constant attacks on the Amarr by paramilitary groups. Even those who might otherwise support her measured foreign policies must at the very least feel a complete lack of confidence in her ability to govern based on what has transpired.
I mean, how much has to go wrong before one begins to see that the tiger has no teeth? I mean, I don't want to apply the term "failed state" the Republic, but it is teetering on the verge of becoming one. I think that would instantly change with a change in government. Now, will that new government be better for the cause of international peace? I doubt it. Nevertheless, with or without her in power, the Republic is moving towards war.
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ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö
"Our histories, one day, will absolve me..."
- Shira d'Radonis
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Nachshon
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.06 16:47:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Cribb
So it finally happend, can't say i'm surprised.
The woman's experation date was long over deu.
She might have given us stability and a false feeling of peace.
Don't forget as long as Amarr and the Amattar still use slave's, no goverment that let's them isn't capable of bringing true peace to Matar.
Now i'm not saying we should kill Midular, just exile her to let's say the Great wildlands. See how the Thukker Tribe think of her.
Better idea. How about we take advantage of the fact that she's dedicated to bringing peace, and make her our chief envoy to the Ammatars. And put Shakor in charge back home.
Then, we can pull a "good cop, bad cop" routine. They can deal with Midular, and negotiate in good faith... or deal with Shakor.
And for those who say that we shouldn't negotiate with the Ammatars, I see peace between the Mandate and the Republic as merely the first step on a path to bringing the Nefantar home - and the incorporation of the Derelik region into the Republic.
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Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship.
The True Meaning of Freedom
My v |
Stitcher
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.06.06 17:01:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Shira d'Radonis
I mean, how much has to go wrong before one begins to see that the tiger has no teeth? I mean, I don't want to apply the term "failed state" the Republic, but it is teetering on the verge of becoming one. I think that would instantly change with a change in government. Now, will that new government be better for the cause of international peace? I doubt it. Nevertheless, with or without her in power, the Republic is moving towards war.
Take away the teeth and claws, and you still have a tiger. Eventually, those claws will grow back.
Personally, I've always perceived Midular's reputation as an "apologist" to be unfounded. She's been labelled that by certain extremist factions within the Republic and outside it, but given that those factions include a fairly large number of terrorists I'm not sure the label should be given much credence.
Midular's lack of popularity stems from the fact that her policies apparently follow the "slow and steady" approach. Her every policy betrays the fact that she's a long-term thinker. Unfortunately, Minmatar culture is infamously characterized by brashness and a taste for bold, decisive action.
Midular's a chess player trying to head up a society of Splinterz fans. Ultimately, her downfall will be the impatience of the society she is trying to lead, not her inability to lead it.
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Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Shira d'Radonis
The Amarr Mission
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Posted - 2008.06.06 17:42:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Stitcher
Take away the teeth and claws, and you still have a tiger. Eventually, those claws will grow back.
Personally, I've always perceived Midular's reputation as an "apologist" to be unfounded. She's been labelled that by certain extremist factions within the Republic and outside it, but given that those factions include a fairly large number of terrorists I'm not sure the label should be given much credence.
Midular's lack of popularity stems from the fact that her policies apparently follow the "slow and steady" approach. Her every policy betrays the fact that she's a long-term thinker. Unfortunately, Minmatar culture is infamously characterized by brashness and a taste for bold, decisive action.
Midular's a chess player trying to head up a society of Splinterz fans. Ultimately, her downfall will be the impatience of the society she is trying to lead, not her inability to lead it.
I completely disagree. You argue that she's a chess player, but someone with such a strategic mind would not have allowed herself to become so isolated. Maybe she'd have made for a better foreign minister than a Prime Minister.
Foreign policy aside, she has failed to get people on board with her. Her national/internal security record is worthless. She has failed to isolate the extremist wings inside the Republic and has allowed them to repeatedly raid Amarr space and infiltrate virtually every level of the government. And when she has tried to rein in such elements, she has repeatedly mishandled that process. She should've united her people behind her goals. That is what a great stateswoman would've done. Would it have been necessary to break a few heads to achieve that goal? Probably. The unfortunate thing is that the Minmatar moderates don't seem to have a real fighter of their own like Shakor to take on the extremists and bring order and sense to the Republic.
For that reason, the vox populi has gotten away from her. The hardliners control the narrative, and she is perceived (correctly) as living up in her Ivory Tower isolated from what's really going on. I don't see anyone from her faction stepping forward at this point who can reinvigorate the cause of moderation and peace in the way that is needed. Any such attempt at this point would be too little too late.
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ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö
"Our histories, one day, will absolve me..."
- Shira d'Radonis
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