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Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.06 01:29:00 - [1] Edited by: Shira d''Radonis on 06/06/2008 01:28:59 http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2079&tid=4 I suppose it's been a long time coming now. Midular's policies have clearly been very unpopular and divisive. I just hope that this change in government will bring renewed unity to the Minmatar people. I do fear for the continued peace between the Amarr and the Minmatar though. Given what has transpired recently, a shift in foreign policy will likely mean war. But I suppose the Republic has for some time now been moving in its own direction in spite of her efforts. A collision of civilizations seems unavoidable now. My God have mercy on us all... ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Daro Con	Posted - 2008.06.06 01:33:00 - [2] Edited by: Daro Con on 06/06/2008 01:33:24 Quote: Shakor, a long-time rival of the prime minister, is considered a primary candidate to replace her in a general election. The capsuleer is known for being the most vocal hawk in the Minmatar Republic, demanding a "zero-tolerance" policy of slavery towards Amarr. ! I have nothing more to say.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 01:47:00 - [3] Becq Starforged's words cannot be heard over the sounds of celebration in the background... -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Mithrantir Ob'lontra Ixion Defence Systems Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 02:17:00 - [4] Freedom is the most valued gift one can give to his people. ------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it.
Vladimir Titov Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.06.06 02:45:00 - [5] Edited by: Vladimir Titov on 06/06/2008 02:49:43 Will UK reconsider its self-imposed exile now that Midular will no longer be at the helm? Oh and a proper link to the news Midular Ousted
Kudon Astraisx 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.06.06 02:52:00 - [6] The 17th (and I expect the majority of EM) will follow the duly-chosen policies of the Republic, no matter what individual leads Parliament. Given the recent difficulties that Midular has faced, it would have been surprising for the vote to fail. I, and my fellow pilots in the 17th, await our new instructions with anticipation. --
Hae t'Redd Ishukone Black Watch	Posted - 2008.06.06 03:23:00 - [7] Edited by: Hae t''Redd on 06/06/2008 03:23:44 I am somewhat saddened by this. Midular kept peace with the Amarr, when hotheads would have plunged the Republic into war. Unfortunately, the hotheads won out this time, even though she was doing the right thing by her people and opening talks with the Ammatar and the Empire. I only hope that the Minmatar people try to pursue peaceful negotiation and elect a leader as wise as Midular.
Chungito Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 04:14:00 - [8] Now you will remember why you fear the dark.
Micia Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 05:12:00 - [9] The Republic is finally growing some stones, eh?
Nachshon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 05:20:00 - [10] YES! I have long questioned Karin Midular's strength to lead. Now her resignation seems likely. I await stonger leadership in the future. ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom My v
Shern Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.06.06 06:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Chungito Now you will remember why you fear the dark. Are some tribals proud to be savages ? Do you want the justify the fear that the amarr have of us ? You actually want to be the monsters they say we are ? God save the matari people. I pray every day for cooler, wiser heads in the north to pull you back from the brink.
Makta Gulat Boosh Industries	Posted - 2008.06.06 06:13:00 - [12] In my humble opinion, this is more than a good thing. We must never forgive the Amarr for what they have done, and still to this day do to our people.
Makta Gulat Boosh Industries	Posted - 2008.06.06 06:21:00 - [13] Originally by: Shern Are some tribals proud to be savages ? Do you want the justify the fear that the amarr have of us ? You actually want to be the monsters they say we are ? God save the matari people. I pray every day for cooler, wiser heads in the north to pull you back from the brink. The time for diplomacy is over. They are the ones playing the victims here, they are the oppressors, they are the ones who enslave our people ship them across the verse in shackles. I weep for them when I see this. We are not savages. The Amarrs ways are outdated and crude. They are the savages. Not I.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 06:39:00 - [14] Midular is not "gone" yet. I know that reading is a difficult task for those who'd rather see all of our people enslaved instead of only a third, so let me highlight it for you: Although largely symbolic I'm looking forward to hear Midular's position. But come what may, I will follow my Republic.
Pezzle Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 07:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Chungito Now you will remember why you fear the dark. Are you a moron? Nevermind. As predicted the matar will usher in the violence. We shall see if the level of destruction required falls short of plunging this cluster into a new time of darkness.
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.06.06 07:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Kudon Astraisx The 17th (and I expect the majority of EM) will follow the duly-chosen policies of the Republic, no matter what individual leads Parliament. And so the tribals admit they are blind followers, I applaud you. Midular was the greatest asset of the tribal authority. From here, matters for them will only get worse. San Matari Official forums
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Pezzle Originally by: Chungito Now you will remember why you fear the dark. Are you a moron? Nevermind. As predicted the matar will usher in the violence. We shall see if the level of destruction required falls short of plunging this cluster into a new time of darkness. No a moron would have to ask if someone else is a moron. Lets see, slave driving race, still slave driving.... Slave driving race, 'reclaiming' minmatar citizens still.... Slave trading race pulling a psychotic commander out of the bleaks.... yes because a war to free enslaved minmatar people is totally our fault for having the audacity to want to be free and to free our brothers and sisters. CVA used to have a little bit more dignity... pity.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:13:00 - [18] As arkady already said, Midular is not ousted yet. A vote of no confidence is not removal from power. Its formal notice that your parliament no longer believes you are fit to rule. It remains to be seen if Midular resigns or if the parliament is forced to remove her or if the minmatar even wish to retain parliamentary systems. I wait to see how this falls out.
Dionisius The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:24:00 - [19] Hmm interesting development, lets see how Midular responds to this first. _____________________________________ I am the destroyer of worlds and the also the cokie thief.
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:28:00 - [20] For the sake of all Matar, I hope that, if Midular is to be replaced, that the new government does not attempt to incite hostilities against the Amarr. I bet they're just itching for a reason to launch a merciless crusade against your people. It's a shame you're horrible at picking allies. ...
Dionisius The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:34:00 - [21] Originally by: Rawr Cristina For the sake of all Matar, I hope that, if Midular is to be replaced, that the new government does not attempt to incite hostilities against the Amarr. I bet they're just itching for a reason to launch a merciless crusade against your people. It's a shame you're horrible at picking allies. I believe the minmatar people will do fine without the need to implant behaviour control chips in their heads. Also i doubt that Sanshas Nation and its lackeys is the ally they need. _____________________________________ I am the destroyer of worlds and the also the cokie thief.
Myyona Ataraxia Pharmacies	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:36:00 - [22] I fear this was a turn for the worse for the Matari people. Midular did have her faults but keeping peace and progress to the Republic was not one of them. If the hot-heads and warmongers get it their way I fear the days of an united Republic will be over. --- Nobody can do everything, but everybody can do nothing
Rawr Cristina Naqam	Posted - 2008.06.06 08:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Dionisius Originally by: Rawr Cristina For the sake of all Matar, I hope that, if Midular is to be replaced, that the new government does not attempt to incite hostilities against the Amarr. I bet they're just itching for a reason to launch a merciless crusade against your people. It's a shame you're horrible at picking allies. I believe the minmatar people will do fine without the need to implant behaviour control chips in their heads. Also i doubt that Sanshas Nation and its lackeys is the ally they need. Such narrowminded prejudice from your kind is exactly why we're no longer assisting you against the Amarr. We risked countless ships in skirmishes with Empire loyalists in defence of our so-called allies within the Republic, yet what did we get to show for it? Nothing but baseless contempt and hostility, and not even so much as a thankyou. It's no wonder the Republic is so divided. They have trouble even accepting their own kind. ...
Dionisius The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Dionisius Originally by: Rawr Cristina For the sake of all Matar, I hope that, if Midular is to be replaced, that the new government does not attempt to incite hostilities against the Amarr. I bet they're just itching for a reason to launch a merciless crusade against your people. It's a shame you're horrible at picking allies. I believe the minmatar people will do fine without the need to implant behaviour control chips in their heads. Also i doubt that Sanshas Nation and its lackeys is the ally they need. Such narrowminded prejudice from your kind is exactly why we're no longer assisting you against the Amarr. We risked countless ships in skirmishes with Empire loyalists in defence of our so-called allies within the Republic, yet what did we get to show for it? Nothing but baseless contempt and hostility, and not even so much as a thankyou. It's no wonder the Republic is so divided. They have trouble even accepting their own kind. I have been in Stain and in True Power Corporation stations Miss Cristina, and i have seen what happens to the ones you " help " with your chips. I believe that the Minmatar people haven't been fighting one kind of slavery for all these centuries just to throw themselves in to another one. _____________________________________ I am the destroyer of worlds and the also the cokie thief.
Major Death Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:13:00 - [25] Don't be surprised if Midular is assassinated after leaving office. My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!'
Redbad TSL Wolfpack	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Originally by: Kudon Astraisx The 17th (and I expect the majority of EM) will follow the duly-chosen policies of the Republic, no matter what individual leads Parliament. And so the tribals admit they are blind followers, I applaud you. Midular was the greatest asset of the tribal authority. From here, matters for them will only get worse. I shall not deny some of the Clans are deeply divided on certain subjects, so followers? I doubt it. You will know that tribal decisions still outweigh any Republic decisions. The Republic is a project of the majority of the Tribes to create a political body outside our tribal bonds for more structured diplomatic relations with our friends and even our enemies; and a succesfull, however demanding, project it has been for the years that lie behind us. The Republic was always there when Tribal Honour and Bonds were not enough to ***** some hard nuts; It was there to carry a stern message to all who would stand in the way of Freedom of our people; in words or in force. Rapid growth, success and ofcourse time has understandably blurred its focus for some time. Now the time has come for the Tribes to test the Republic once again to regain its focus. A Republic that will once again forcibly stand for the Freedom for our People. I agree with you that matters seem to get worse, but how much worse, will depend on the understanding of Imperial decisionmakers that few options are left for our People, due to the recent events outside the Republic. I know the Empire and the Mandate have faith in their God, I can only respect that, but the decision to choose the path is for man to take. Choose wisely. RB
Rathera D'Sarth Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:49:00 - [27] Rathera sighs and leans back in her chair However unfortunate for peace this may be, it was rather inevitable. More than ever, events of the past few weeks have shown how little actual control Prime Minister Midular had over her own forces. I would also imagine the fact the Chamberlain of the Amarr Empire making a public statement regarding the apparent resurfacing of the Starkmanir tribe, several days before Minister Midular had done so, probably caused more than a few of her remaining staunch supporters to question her. As likely as it is that the new Republic Prime Minister is to be someone with a decidedly more aggressive outlook on current matters, the sad truth is that Prime Minister Midular can no longer be considered a viable leader, and someone capable of actually leading should replace her.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 09:59:00 - [28] It is not a secret that I am a supporter of the current government, including our Ray of Matar's stance of peace. I believe that without the remarkable capability that the Republic has demonstrated for moderation and co-operation ever since its beginning, we would have all been lost years ago, even before most of us in capsules today were born. I have, so far, always believed that despite the vocal pro-war propaganda among capsuleers and root-level populations elsewhere, our government has seen this wisdom. It is extremely disappointing and alarming to find out this is not so. That the Defiants and Ushra'Khan would throw away all we have to die gloriously in a war where they risk not only their own freedom but that of everyone - that is nothing new. If the leaders of the four tribes would do the same - I have no words to describe how that makes me feel. That said, I believe in the Republic more than I believe in the government. Whatever happens, the tribes that are united must remain united. That, more than the question of when to fight, is the one thing that separates my stance from that of the terrorists'. I remain loyal. May the ancestors watch over us all. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Redbad TSL Wolfpack	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:20:00 - [29] Your words of wisdom are as always an enrichment for our Republic, lady Rhiannon. Moderation and co-operation have been fruitfull indeed. The Republic is, despite the hard political endeavours it faced, a strong entity and vehicle for our Tribes. Karin Midular did well, she has laid down an example of how the Republic can be run in days where trust in our friends and competitors is obvious. However, it is outside factors that calls for a fundamental stance where moderation and co-operation can only be fruitfull with mutual trust. The question the Tribes, the Republic and all the other empires have to answer the coming days is whether that spark of mutual trust is still there. I fear the worst, RB
Taradis The Imperial Assassins	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:25:00 - [30] Taradis takes a sip of his tea as he switches off the Holo News Channel With Prime Minister Midular the Republic has been at relative peace with the Empire and now it seems that the Republic will prove to the rest of New Eden what Primitive Savages they are. I have both Matari and Gallente friends, I feel for them in these dark times with the unrest in the State and Federation and the show of force by Republic and Thukker tribe ships in Yulai. I would hope that cooler heads will prevail in this day and age but I may be wrong about that. But I for one will not let the unlightened savages of the Minmatar Republic threaten the Empire. I hear the beat of the tribal war drums in my head as I lay awake at nights stareing at the ceiling and pondering to myself what the future now holds. Those Savages that are a part of this ouster of Prime Minister Midular have all but sealed their fates they will tremble at the site of the golden fleet approaching. I just hope that my Matari and Gallente friends do not get caught up in this.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:36:00 - [31] Originally by: Taradis they will tremble at the site of the golden fleet approaching. I just hope that my Matari and Gallente friends do not get caught up in this. You must realize how contradictory that is, right? -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Redbad TSL Wolfpack	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:37:00 - [32] Originally by: Taradis Taradis takes a sip of his tea as he switches off the Holo News Channel With Prime Minister Midular the Republic has been at relative peace with the Empire and now it seems that the Republic will prove to the rest of New Eden what Primitive Savages they are. I have both Matari and Gallente friends, I feel for them in these dark times with the unrest in the State and Federation and the show of force by Republic and Thukker tribe ships in Yulai. I would hope that cooler heads will prevail in this day and age but I may be wrong about that. But I for one will not let the unlightened savages of the Minmatar Republic threaten the Empire. I hear the beat of the tribal war drums in my head as I lay awake at nights stareing at the ceiling and pondering to myself what the future now holds. Those Savages that are a part of this ouster of Prime Minister Midular have all but sealed their fates they will tremble at the site of the golden fleet approaching. I just hope that my Matari and Gallente friends do not get caught up in this. You words do not strike me as if there is still that little spark of mutual trust.
Rathera D'Sarth Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:51:00 - [33] Just because Prime Minister Midular, (For she has not exactly been ousted just this moment), can no longer be considered a suitible leader, does not mean that the one that should follow her should not continue what she was trying to do. She was once quite capable of the task of leadership, I am sure, but recent events have shown that this is no longer the case. I would like to hope that a capable leader does what is best, rather than what the 'popular opinion' tells him or her to do, but I guess that such a 'leader' can always turn round at the end and tell said public that he/she was their fault... In anycase, I hope that her successor continues what she was trying to do, but is much better at it than she has proved to be. One that has control over it's own military and militant factions would be a good start, however that control is then subsequently used.
Darius Shakor Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.06 10:59:00 - [34] Something very unexpected to wake to this morning. All I can say is 'it's about time.' This should have happened years ago. Midular's inept domestic handling of many situations, even before the Defiants, and before I followed the Ushra'Khan out of the Minmatar Republic to conduct the fight alone with them, Midular made many mistakes and showed she did not learn from them. She gave in to the Amarr and gained nothing of long term consequence more out of fear. Of course the Republic has grown since the days we wrestled free of the slavers. Or at least those of us lucky to have wrestled free... Maybe moderation was needed, and bowing to pressure. But these are things to be used to our advantage in the long run, not to dictate the course of all our actions in the future without at least laying some ground work to allow us to stand tall and no longer be pushed around. This is what Midular failed to do. And this is what we need a leader to do now. Malaetu Shakor is expected, or so it seems, to replace her as our leader by popular vote. I have always expected he would do well in this regard, and if it does happen then we will now see what he can do. And if not him, then whoever is called to the position. I never expected Malaetu to be the one to call for the vote of no confidence though. It is indeed long overdue. The Republic has begun to *** with feuding clans and Midular's incompetent handling of the situation makes me wonder how she could cope with the events happening in the whole of New Eden now. If those ships that turned up in Yulai really were Republic Fleet ships, it shows that very large factions of the military have also gone rogue under her leadership and the ever flowing stream of Minmatar leaving the Republic for the Federation for a better life continues. I hereby declare support for Malaetu Shakor on behalf of the Second Shakor Clan of Matar. ------ Mirkur Draug'Tyr :: Recruitment**
Paddington Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:05:00 - [35] i do enjoy how you republicans back peddle. Good to see there are still some in the republic that know what has to be done.
Haverloth 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:07:00 - [36] I am extremely concerned by this news. Whilst I have little respect for the squalid Republic or those who profess to lead it, with Midular at least there has been a period of relative calm, aggression by insurgent elements such as Ushra'Khan and the Defiants notwithstanding. That Midular is in the process of being ousted by one known for his outright aggression towards the Empire and the Mandate shows me the real intent of the Matari people - that their primitivism and barbarism is once more rising to the fore. I pray that this does not result in further violence to the peace-loving peoples of the Empire and its autonomous regions - rest assured, however, that any Matari aggression will not go unchecked. ____________________ http://1pg.vigilia-valeria.org
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:14:00 - [37] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 06/06/2008 11:15:03 Today is a good day. Rise sons and daughters of Matar, rise! -----------------------------------------
Redbad TSL Wolfpack	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:15:00 - [38] Originally by: Haverloth ... that their primitivism and barbarism ... Some more respect would have suited your otherwise well chosen words better, Centurio.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 11:56:00 - [39] I find it particularly amusing to see loyalists accusing people of being terrorists in a thread highlighting popular support for a change away from the current grovelling stance towards the amarr that Midular has set. I wonder if they'll be in a position to support the republic when the call finally goes out to actually take the fight to the slavers rather than sit at home profiting off the trade behind the guise of protecting the few that are free rather than doing anything about those that are not. One can only hope that with this change we gain a stronger and more aggressive leader. We might even see some old divisions healed in the face of a common enemy...
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:05:00 - [40] And now it appears as though Midular is not going without a fight. She has dissolved Parliament and "expelled" Shakor. There really seems to be only two options at this point: Midular's allies will have to abandon her or convince her to step down, or the Matari will have to face the high probability of civil war. And if the Matari start fighting each other, I think she'll find the Empire to be somewhat less than... "cooperative." ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Davlos Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:15:00 - [41] Edited by: Davlos on 06/06/2008 12:18:25 I may not be part of the tribes, but I can definitely see the wisdom of the mob within Ushra'Khan. The conspiracy theories, the relentless victimisation of one individual and all the blame thrown to her... well, it's a good thing that the 'Khan have ejected themselves from the Republic. I would have hated to witness the chemotherapy. Should governance be based on the emotions and primal desires of the masses? Many a time has such a society appeared - proud of its apparent governance by the people but tyrants of other nations. Such a system may easily vote to approve to slaughter all the men of a recently sacked enemy city and enslave the women and children despite the minority voices of rationality within the crowd. One's freedom to live as one desires is one thing, but to use this freedom to make a collective mistake such as this oncoming vote is another. I thought that I was the one who's daft about politics, but if Ushra'Khan went back to school, they would've been awarded big 'F' grades in Social Studies. Especially Sapphrine. His cognitive functions are still chronically impaired from his horribly outdated cognitive software. Sapphrine. You are a shame to all with Caldari blood flowing in their veins. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
Dionisius The Circle STYX.	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:17:00 - [42] Minmatar Parliament Dissolved Looks like we have complications in the Republic. _____________________________________ I am the destroyer of worlds and the also the cokie thief.
Nachshon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:18:00 - [43] Edited by: Nachshon on 06/06/2008 12:21:52 Allow me to clarify my views on Midular. I believe that she is not strong enough to lead the Republic. I respect her for her accomplishments, and I don't think we should abandon her vision of peace. But I don't think she should be in charge. She has proven indecisive in the past - witness her failure to respond promptly to the outcry over Karishal Muritor's death, or to the discovery of the Starkmanir in the Mandate. Being slow to react isn't a great flaw in an ordinary person, but for a leader, it is unforgivable. I have a proposal for what her position SHOULD be: diplomatic envoy to the Ammatar Mandate. Effectively, she should be our ambassador. Allow her to work for peace - but not at the cost of weakening our ability to wage war. And while I do think that an Amarr-Minmatar war would be more likely under a Shakor administration, I do think that the Republic would be better off with him in charge. I have a feeling that among his first acts would be to pronounce a zero-tolerance policy on slaving in the Republic, order an expansion of the Republic Fleet, and send a task force to Skarkon. These acts would not only strengthen the Republic directly, they would endear him to the radical elements of Matari society, and perhaps close the rift between the freedom fighters and the government. It would also give him more control over them - which might actually prevent a war. The no-confidence vote is symbolic. But it shows that Midular no longer controls the Parliament. Shakor does. If Midular tries to hold on to power, the result will be fierce partisan infighting between her and Shakor. This would paralyze the Republic at a crucial time. The Caldari and Gallente are on the brink of war. I cannot recall a time when tensions were any higher. We need to be united and able to act decisively. EDIT: That was not what I had in mind. ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom My v
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:19:00 - [44] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/06/2008 12:20:18 REPORT: KARIN MIDULAR DISSOLVES PARLIAMENT, OUSTS SHAKOR AND YUN FROM GOVERNMENT Well, decisiveness was asked for, was it not? I am sorry, it is a serious matter and I know I should not laugh, but... I cannot help but see the irony. (Edit: linkified) -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Davlos Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:23:00 - [45] How can anyone say that Shakor presently controls Parliament despite not being an elected official, and anyone say for certain that if Shakor does get elected, he'd remain in control? This is a warmonger we're talking about. Someone who may receive at least 80% approval ratings during his first 100 days, and then have it drop at first sight of publicised defeat during some small, unimportant skirmish, raid, or battle. War costs lives. We didn't expend all of this work against slavers, organization of rehab and leading freed slaves to a new, free life to throw them into the throes of war. Don't be spouting nonsense about 'stronger leader' and 'stronger this and that pish posh' any longer. It makes me want to choke a baby with a bloody ball gag. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
Rathera D'Sarth Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.06.06 12:44:00 - [46] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/06/2008 12:20:18 REPORT: KARIN MIDULAR DISSOLVES PARLIAMENT, OUSTS SHAKOR AND YUN FROM GOVERNMENT Well, decisiveness was asked for, was it not? I am sorry, it is a serious matter and I know I should not laugh, but... I cannot help but see the irony. Well...that is certainly one way trying to regain control of the situation. A desperate, short term, bad way, but a way none the less. These sorts of actions start civil wars, but that assumes that there is enough support for her 'side' to win one. While a leader should be strong, they should also not respond in a knee-jerk reaction. The dismissal of the ambassador after his 'threats' and the appearance of ships to carry out said threats is perhaps...overdue, but one should not lights give the boot to a popular 'hero'. I can not even begin to understand what Shakor means the the republic's citizens, but responding to his call of 'you're not fit' with a cry of 'I cast you into exile!' was...not smart. In either case, all possible avenues for her leaving office in a dignified fashion appear to have closed.
Darius Shakor Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:05:00 - [47] Midular dissolving the Parliament is one thing. And a bad thing at that. It reeks of sour grapes at this stage of the game and further incompetence or political ineptness. Malaetu Shakor calling for her to step down with a no confidence vote is not a shot at the Republic, just the person leading it. It would not destabilise the Republic, it would usher in new leadership that would further stabilise what is already a breaking structure. It may not even work but it was not working with Midular at the helm either so what did we have to lose? Seems now we have a greater deal to lose since Midular's so called 'decisiveness' is little more than a hissy fit. But one thing that is completely intolerable is her removal of Malaetu Shakor from the government. She does not have that power. And if anything she has now directly added to the instability in the Republic that the vote of no confidence and new leadership was geared towards preventing. Maybe this is a sign of some strength from her too. But it is too bad that this did not come a hell of a lot sooner, and she directed at the appropriate people. ------ Mirkur Draug'Tyr :: Recruitment
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:13:00 - [48] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/06/2008 13:13:39 Originally by: Darius Shakor But one thing that is completely intolerable is her removal of Malaetu Shakor from the government. She does not have that power. Originally by: ISD In addition, there are reports that Ambassador Keitan Yun has been relieved of his post and that Parliament Head Maleatu Shakor has been "expelled" from government. However, Karin Midular lacks the legal authority to dismiss an elected official unless evidence of a crime has been presented, which she has not yet claimed There, I put in some emphasis to help you out, Dar honey. You really should've stayed with the sensible folks, your reading comprehension is suffering again. Let's wait where it goes before jumping into conclusions, either way. Else -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Darius Shakor Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:24:00 - [49] Reads the same to me. Emphasising that 'there are reports' does not invalidate them. They do not state the reports are unconfirmed. The other day I had reports that a member of the Vestiar family of my Clan had a bust up with clan security. It was a report of something that had happened. That is what people do when something happens, they report it. As for Midular not claiming what crimes Shakor might have committed I would ask her what her delay was. If she is going to expel someone who just called for her resignation in a public manner like this she should damn well know to declare her reasons. Otherwise she either has no such information and is, as I said, throwing a tantrum with her power and pride, or she is stringing the situation along even more which right now is the stupidest thing she could do. Validating my sentiments that she is politically incompetent and at least adding to the confusion of the situation when she should be clarifying it. In short, your highlights and emphasis changes nothing, honey. ------ Mirkur Draug'Tyr :: Recruitment
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:31:00 - [50] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/06/2008 13:33:03 If ISD had confirmation for those reports, do you not think they would have published the facts and the source, not just a vague rumor? You might be right, of course. But you also might not be. All I am saying is that it might make some sense to wait for verification before asking for blood. You might have noticed also from the news that security had to remove the prime minister from the session when violence broke out - that might explain some slowness in answering, no? If people would just stay calm and shut the **** up and listen, we might actually have some progress already. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Darius Shakor Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:39:00 - [51] So you believe that Security had to escort her from the scene under siege from angry parliament members, yet you want to wait for confirmation that the reports of Yun and Shakor being expelled are true? Why then did the parliament session break down I wonder... fewer bathroom breaks between sessions maybe? Yes that must be it, or perhaps lunch was burned by the kitchen staff and called off and Midular refused to put out for sandwich delivery. In any case I do concede the point that the session was called short making for a lack of answers. But I cannot escape the fact that the timing is very suspicious. Yesterday Malaetu Shakor calls for no confidence, today he is expelled. You do the maths Elsebeth. ------ Mirkur Draug'Tyr :: Recruitment
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:44:00 - [52] Someone needs to impale Midular with a Khumaak and leave her corpse in orbit over Matar. Don't look at me that way...you were all thinking the same thing! -------------------
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:52:00 - [53] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/06/2008 13:55:13 Darius, I believe that the ISD has a reason for reporting the removal of Malaetu Shakor as "there are reports that" but the violence in the parliament without that qualifier. The situation now is that we do not know what is happening, not whether Shakor has been removed at all, and if he has, on what grounds. I, for one, refuse to "do the maths", for or against anyone involved, before I hear more. Quote: Officials from the Republic Fleet, the only government branch unaffected by the turmoil, are urging people to remain calm and to refrain from spreading panic while "government processes are allowed to work". For now, Karin Midular is still the Prime Minister of the Republic for which my oath of loyalty was given. For now, Malaetu Shakor is still a speaker in the Parliament of the same nation. For now, we are not in a state of war. For now, we wait. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Redbad TSL Wolfpack	Posted - 2008.06.06 13:56:00 - [54] Out of respect for EM, UK, the Republic and foremost the Tribal Elders, TSL will refrain from further comments on this subject. TSL will assemble their Wolfpack and will answer to any offical tribal call. RB
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:04:00 - [55] Edited by: Shira d''Radonis on 06/06/2008 14:07:19 Given the uptick in violence between the Matari factions over the last couple of years, isn't it much more likely that Midular, having tacked so hard against the prevailing winds in the Republic, will simply be forcibly removed from power? There is a perception of illegitimacy in her actions with this dissolving of Parliament and expulsion of Shakor. Isn't that all the hardliners need at this point to stage a coup? After all, they're reporting rioting in the streets on the news now. The populace is furious over her actions. If a coup is to be attempted, now would be the time. ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:05:00 - [56] Whilst we're on the topic of people that are a disgrace to their people Davlos.... As for me being a shame to the Caldari, do you see them being nice and rational about a Nyx being suicided into the Ishukone HQ? No! they're ****ed off and rightly so. Great injustice requires action, not sitting around and trying to rationalise it till it goes away. Now lets look at the Republic. We have a democracy, which isn't very happy with its premier. The people have spoken, the people have rioted and the ministers have listened, considered over time and shakor has used the political system to instigate a vote of no confidence. That vote was upheld by the house meaning the premier does not have the confidence of the democratically elected body to rule. Midular's response? She has dissolved parliament which is the logical next step if she's not just going to step down. Thats fine. She's then expelled Shakor from parliament, at best a petty gesture and at worst something far more sinister. Most importantly, utterly outside of her powers as Premier. Why are the people angry? Has there been any one issue that Midular has acted catastrophically on to incite a knee jerk attack? no. (open to debate obviously but with her current book of open attrocities there's a whole range to pick from). The people are unhappy and have grown increasingly more so over a number of years. Midular has not gained anything from the policy of appeasement and our enslaved brothers and sisters continue to be oppressed. Meanwhile Amarrian paramilitaries continue to attempt to expand the empire out into null sec, enslaving millions more and fuelling the slave trade to maintain their infrastructure and the empire continues to sabre rattle over getting caught instigating covert 'reclaimings'. To top it off, and my most person issue with Midular, she personally signed the assassination order on Karishal Muritor. This was a murder I watched carried out infront of my eyes, she used the mans friendships and his honour of a parley to kill him under a flag of peace. I will agree with you on one thing though Davlos, your understaning of Politics is awful. You argue that Democracy is great unless the majority are going to act in a way you consider wrong. Then you think they shouldn't have power to make the change you percieve as wrong?! Here's a hint, when you're in a 'democracy' where the person at the top gets to decide if the majority is right or wrong based on their judgement its called Dictatorship.
Myyona Ataraxia Pharmacies	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:12:00 - [57] Originally by: Dionisius Minmatar Parliament Dissolved Looks like we have complications in the Republic. Oh dear, my fears are coming true. --- Nobody can do everything, but everybody can do nothing
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:15:00 - [58] Originally by: Shira d'Radonis Edited by: Shira d''Radonis on 06/06/2008 14:07:19 Given the uptick in violence between the Matari factions over the last couple of years, isn't it much more likely that Midular, having tacked so hard against the prevailing winds in the Republic, will simply be forcibly removed from power? There is a perception of illegitimacy in her actions with this dissolving of Parliament and expulsion of Shakor. Isn't that all the hardliners need at this point to stage a coup? After all, they're reporting rioting in the streets on the news now. The populace is furious over her actions. If a coup is to be attempted, now would be the time. or put another way, the fact that when faced with a legitimate democratic challenge, Midular appears to have dissolved parliament to give herself a breathing space rather than stand down and has then it seems taken the leader of the rebels into custody without stating a charge..... Forgive me if a coup doesn't seem the most unlikely progression when you've tried the politically correct route and the forces in power have decided to ignore it. There is still maggots 1isk bounty, seems like a lot of parliament ministers were considering claiming it if Midular had to be escorted out by security :)
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:16:00 - [59] I would remind everyone that there was a vote of no confidence to the government. The decision to dissolve the parliament and to call for re-election is quite the proper response to that. If the prime minister had not done that, the same people that are now upset about it would be upset about her not doing anything, and rightly so. I understand the alarm this instability causes when it happens on this kind of a crucial moment, and the dissatisfaction that the rumors about the expulsion of Malaetu Shakor for the remaining two months of government might cause, but let us not be unreasonable. The government processes are working as they should. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:24:00 - [60] actually there was another option Elsebeth, Midular could have stood down. I'll agree that they are within their rights to dissolve parliament however. Allegedly shackling the leader of the rebels without charge however.... not the smartest move. You'd think someone with such a prominent position would know how that would play in the press and what the average citizen might take from the coverage.
Robert Kauliford Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:27:00 - [61] Sometimes leaders in time of crisis must do the right thing. Even when it is highly unpopular
Darius Shakor Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:30:00 - [62] Sapph, Shakor is not a leader of any rebels any more, though spiritually he will always remain a hero to freedom fighters for his past actions against the Amarr. And he is not shackled from what I can tell as he has not been arrested by current accounts. God help Midular if he has been without any cause though. But Elsebeth, you cannot claim all is well when Midular has violated the extent of her powers under Republic law. It is no good saying 'so what, he misses a couple of months' and shrugging when he should not be missing those months at all. Midular does not have the authority to remove him unless he has committed a crime. I thought you were waiting to see what happens and for facts to surface before making judgements. Seems to me with your acceptance of Shakor's expulsion from the government that you have already made a conclusion. ------ Mirkur Draug'Tyr :: Recruitment
Hae t'Redd Ishukone Black Watch	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:31:00 - [63] Apparently, Midular had more backbone that originally thought. I, and many others figured her as good as gone. Good for her.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:34:00 - [64] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/06/2008 14:35:54 Originally by: Sapphrine actually there was another option Elsebeth, Midular could have stood down As I see it, there were basically three things the prime minister could have done. First, she would have been within her rights to completely ignore the vote of no-confidence. That would have effectively said "screw you" to everyone opposing her. Second, she could have done what she did, which is dissolve the government and call for re-election. That option says "I hear you, brothers and sisters, even if I do not agree". Third, she could have dissolved the government and call for re-election and immediately resigned, leaving her post to someone else for the remaining term of this government. That would have, effectively, said "I agree, I should not lead our people anymore". The vote of no-confidence was not to her personally, though; it was to her government. Just herself stepping down would not have been the best choice, I suspect. The prime minister does not govern alone, and that would have left all her associates and allies in place, giving rise to suspicions that she is still in power de facto, even if removed de jure. EDITED to add: Darius, I am not saying "so what if he misses a couple of months". I am merely saying I do not know if he was removed, and if so, why. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Ezri Filth Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:35:00 - [65] Although Midular is a pretty chick I would like to see her dead as well.
Rathera D'Sarth Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:35:00 - [66] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/06/2008 14:18:31 I would remind everyone that there was a vote of no confidence to the government. The decision to dissolve the parliament, which constituted a call for re-election is quite the proper response to that. If the prime minister had not done that, the same people that are now upset about it would be upset about her not doing anything, and rightly so. I understand the alarm this instability causes when it happens on this kind of a crucial moment, and the dissatisfaction that the rumors about the expulsion of Malaetu Shakor for the remaining two months of government might cause, but let us not be unreasonable. The government processes are working as they should. Rathera tilts her head to one side, pondering I will conceede that I am not as familiar with the political workings of a democracy as I perhaps should be, so if the dissolution of the parliment is the first step towards an actual election, then miss Midular has effectively stepped down and bowed out. I will also conceed that it has not been made 'official' if she did or did not attempt to oust Malaetu Shakor, and the republic's ambassador to Concoord, at the same time. They are unconfirmed reports. The problem with unconfirmed reports is that they can still get people killed. Going off of what has been purely confirmed then, I will commend the former prime-minister for effectively stepping down, and opening the way for someone more capable of leading the republic. Not the least devisive way of resigning, but it is an effective one nonetheless.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:37:00 - [67] Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon on 06/06/2008 14:38:57 Originally by: Rathera D'Sarth I will conceede that I am not as familiar with the political workings of a democracy as I perhaps should be, so if the dissolution of the parliment is the first step towards an actual election Please note, as explained e.g. in this news piece, that this is indeed the law: Originally by: ISD Prime Minister Karin Midular defiantly responded to ShakorÆs successful vote of no-confidence by dissolving parliament. The measure requires a call for new elections within two months, as mandated by Republic law. -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Rathera D'Sarth Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:42:00 - [68] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Rathera D'Sarth I will conceede that I am not as familiar with the political workings of a democracy as I perhaps should be, so if the dissolution of the parliment is the first step towards an actual election Originally by: ISD Prime Minister Karin Midular defiantly responded to ShakorÆs successful vote of no-confidence by dissolving parliament. The measure requires a call for new elections within two months, as mandated by Republic law. Linkage I meant more that I did not know this was a 'standard' way of bringing about new elections, as opposed to a less common method that could be construed as an act of angry defiance.. My appologies again.
Pezzle Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:50:00 - [69] Good for Midular. Shakor and Yun are traitors. I do not see this ending well at all. One of these sides is going to end up dead by the hand of the other. Given the current situation Midular has little time left unless she deals with the rebel faction. They will certainly not hesitate to kill her.
Robert Kauliford Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:52:00 - [70] Dissolution is essential for new elections to be held. It is also generaly standard practice for the existing government to remain in power during the interim.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:55:00 - [71] Elsebeth, the vote of no confidence was in her government, headed by her. The premier is the one that takes the fall. It is quite possible to stand down after a vote of no confidence and a party ratified individual to take on the premiership till the next general election in most democracies. Pezzle, how are they treating the head of the 7th fleet for his actions to holders over there on amarr?
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:57:00 - [72] Originally by: Robert Kauliford Dissolution is essential for new elections to be held. It is also generaly standard practice for the existing government to remain in power during the interim. if you dissolve parliament no one is in power. Hence the unrest. This is why standing down would have been better as parliament would have remained in session and a new leader appointed.
Robert Kauliford Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 14:58:00 - [73] And have a new leader chosen behind closed doors in some station? Hardly very democratic
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:01:00 - [74] Originally by: Robert Kauliford And have a new leader chosen behind closed doors in some station? Hardly very democratic then a call for a general election could be issued and done in the normal way without dissolving parliament and leaving the republic with no one at the rudder. Given two bad options, i'd choose the one that doesn't destabilise the entire nation.
Nachshon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:02:00 - [75] OK, Else, I'll defer to your superior knowledge of Minmatar politics. I suggest the Scope do the same - the article was rather misleading. Midular would be well-advised to issue a correction. Looks like we'll be having elections in August. Say, Else, I have a question. Can you nominate someone for Prime Minister against their will? ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom My v
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:02:00 - [76] Originally by: Darius Shakor Sapph, Shakor is not a leader of any rebels any more, though spiritually he will always remain a hero to freedom fighters for his past actions against the Amarr. just to clarify, i meant that he lead the vote of no confidence. That makes him leader of the rebels in the house :)
Myyona Ataraxia Pharmacies	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:09:00 - [77] I despise those warmongers. All their talk about "freedom" and "unity" for all Minmatar while their actions are breaking down the Republic from the inside, sending millions into refuge and desperation like our people not have had enough suffering already. How can we give people freedom when we no longer have any place to be free ourselves? --- Nobody can do everything, but everybody can do nothing
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:15:00 - [78] I find the system you Minmatar use perplexing... how can you simply shut down your government and hold new elections at a time like this? How can you just disperse your deliberative body and leave no one in charge while the wolves are at your door! Say what you will about the Imperial system, at least it provides consistency and continuity. ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Pliskkenn Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:18:00 - [79] Edited by: Pliskkenn on 06/06/2008 15:19:30 Midular has removed the only legal means for people of the Republic to replace her. Where have her policys and methods gotten us? Forgive me for saying this but where has the Ray of Matar lead us? The only option I can see for Shakor or another to gain power now is through force, a coup. And that is something that could easily be avoided if she would step down. ---
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:19:00 - [80] Originally by: Myyona I despise those warmongers. All their talk about "freedom" and "unity" for all Minmatar while their actions are breaking down the Republic from the inside, sending millions into refuge and desperation like our people not have had enough suffering already. How can we give people freedom when we no longer have any place to be free ourselves? My, my, my...what clear insight you have my dear. San Matari Official forums
Elsebeth Rhiannon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:28:00 - [81] Originally by: Pliskkenn Midular has removed the only legal means for people of the Republic to replace her. Where have her policys and methods gotten us? Forgive me for saying this but where has the Ray of Matar lead us? The only option I can see for Shakor or another to gain power now is through force, a coup. And that is something that could easily be avoided if she would step down. Excuse me? The law calls for a re-election. Even if Shakor is expelled from the current government, what is there to stop him from running in for the new one? -- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today.
Stitcher Duty.	Posted - 2008.06.06 15:42:00 - [82] Originally by: Pliskkenn Edited by: Pliskkenn on 06/06/2008 15:19:30 Midular has removed the only legal means for people of the Republic to replace her. Where have her policys and methods gotten us? Forgive me for saying this but where has the Ray of Matar lead us? The only option I can see for Shakor or another to gain power now is through force, a coup. And that is something that could easily be avoided if she would step down. You are aware that there will be an election in two months, as per Republic law, right? I'm not even Minmatar, and I picked that up from the news broadcast. Seems to me like whoever wrote that article has painted Midular in quite a bad light, focusing more on the dissolution itself rather than its ramifications or reasons. Sensationalist journalism is never a good thing. Hence the extreme reaction across the entire republic. - Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Grohl Nas Vronsky Bros and Sons	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:12:00 - [83] Edited by: Grohl Nas on 06/06/2008 16:21:12 nv wrong char
Makkar	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:16:00 - [84] Well, well, well... "Be careful what you wish for," I believe is the phrase. Years ago I was campaigning for this moment, to the point of taking out a hit on Midular to get her out of office. I took Oracle and her allies to the brink of war with the Republic and her loyalists over Midular's policy of appeasement... It's funny how two years of not being cooped up in a pod can alter your perspectives.
Cribb Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:23:00 - [85] So it finally happend, can't say i'm surprised. The woman's experation date was long over deu. She might have given us stability and a false feeling of peace. Don't forget as long as Amarr and the Amattar still use slave's, no goverment that let's them isn't capable of bringing true peace to Matar. Now i'm not saying we should kill Midular, just exile her to let's say the Great wildlands. See how the Thukker Tribe think of her. ------- When in doubt, play loud
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:26:00 - [86] Originally by: Cribb Now i'm not saying we should kill Midular, just exile her to let's say the Great wildlands. See how the Thukker Tribe think of her. Or... how about she's given a curt thank you and allowed to retire to the location of her choice? Isn't it enough for her to just be out of power to satisfy those who want a more hardline stance towards the Empire? ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:35:00 - [87] Originally by: Stitcher Seems to me like whoever wrote that article has painted Midular in quite a bad light, focusing more on the dissolution itself rather than its ramifications or reasons. Sensationalist journalism is never a good thing. Hence the extreme reaction across the entire republic. I'll agree that the article is biased against her, but I don't think it's the reason for the violent protests. I would imagine that those who began rioting had been paying attention to Minmatar-run media rather than this news report. She has just become immensely unpopular. She has been extremely weak for some time now, and her government and society have been absolutely riddled with rebellious activity ranging from vocal dissent to literal violent uprisings and nearly-constant attacks on the Amarr by paramilitary groups. Even those who might otherwise support her measured foreign policies must at the very least feel a complete lack of confidence in her ability to govern based on what has transpired. I mean, how much has to go wrong before one begins to see that the tiger has no teeth? I mean, I don't want to apply the term "failed state" the Republic, but it is teetering on the verge of becoming one. I think that would instantly change with a change in government. Now, will that new government be better for the cause of international peace? I doubt it. Nevertheless, with or without her in power, the Republic is moving towards war. ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Nachshon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 16:47:00 - [88] Originally by: Cribb So it finally happend, can't say i'm surprised. The woman's experation date was long over deu. She might have given us stability and a false feeling of peace. Don't forget as long as Amarr and the Amattar still use slave's, no goverment that let's them isn't capable of bringing true peace to Matar. Now i'm not saying we should kill Midular, just exile her to let's say the Great wildlands. See how the Thukker Tribe think of her. Better idea. How about we take advantage of the fact that she's dedicated to bringing peace, and make her our chief envoy to the Ammatars. And put Shakor in charge back home. Then, we can pull a "good cop, bad cop" routine. They can deal with Midular, and negotiate in good faith... or deal with Shakor. And for those who say that we shouldn't negotiate with the Ammatars, I see peace between the Mandate and the Republic as merely the first step on a path to bringing the Nefantar home - and the incorporation of the Derelik region into the Republic. ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom My v
Stitcher Duty.	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:01:00 - [89] Originally by: Shira d'Radonis I mean, how much has to go wrong before one begins to see that the tiger has no teeth? I mean, I don't want to apply the term "failed state" the Republic, but it is teetering on the verge of becoming one. I think that would instantly change with a change in government. Now, will that new government be better for the cause of international peace? I doubt it. Nevertheless, with or without her in power, the Republic is moving towards war. Take away the teeth and claws, and you still have a tiger. Eventually, those claws will grow back. Personally, I've always perceived Midular's reputation as an "apologist" to be unfounded. She's been labelled that by certain extremist factions within the Republic and outside it, but given that those factions include a fairly large number of terrorists I'm not sure the label should be given much credence. Midular's lack of popularity stems from the fact that her policies apparently follow the "slow and steady" approach. Her every policy betrays the fact that she's a long-term thinker. Unfortunately, Minmatar culture is infamously characterized by brashness and a taste for bold, decisive action. Midular's a chess player trying to head up a society of Splinterz fans. Ultimately, her downfall will be the impatience of the society she is trying to lead, not her inability to lead it. - Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:42:00 - [90] Originally by: Stitcher Take away the teeth and claws, and you still have a tiger. Eventually, those claws will grow back. Personally, I've always perceived Midular's reputation as an "apologist" to be unfounded. She's been labelled that by certain extremist factions within the Republic and outside it, but given that those factions include a fairly large number of terrorists I'm not sure the label should be given much credence. Midular's lack of popularity stems from the fact that her policies apparently follow the "slow and steady" approach. Her every policy betrays the fact that she's a long-term thinker. Unfortunately, Minmatar culture is infamously characterized by brashness and a taste for bold, decisive action. Midular's a chess player trying to head up a society of Splinterz fans. Ultimately, her downfall will be the impatience of the society she is trying to lead, not her inability to lead it. I completely disagree. You argue that she's a chess player, but someone with such a strategic mind would not have allowed herself to become so isolated. Maybe she'd have made for a better foreign minister than a Prime Minister. Foreign policy aside, she has failed to get people on board with her. Her national/internal security record is worthless. She has failed to isolate the extremist wings inside the Republic and has allowed them to repeatedly raid Amarr space and infiltrate virtually every level of the government. And when she has tried to rein in such elements, she has repeatedly mishandled that process. She should've united her people behind her goals. That is what a great stateswoman would've done. Would it have been necessary to break a few heads to achieve that goal? Probably. The unfortunate thing is that the Minmatar moderates don't seem to have a real fighter of their own like Shakor to take on the extremists and bring order and sense to the Republic. For that reason, the vox populi has gotten away from her. The hardliners control the narrative, and she is perceived (correctly) as living up in her Ivory Tower isolated from what's really going on. I don't see anyone from her faction stepping forward at this point who can reinvigorate the cause of moderation and peace in the way that is needed. Any such attempt at this point would be too little too late. ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Bad Harlequin Chiroptera Factor	Posted - 2008.06.06 17:57:00 - [91] Originally by: Dionisius Minmatar Parliament Dissolved Looks like we have complications in the Republic. "However, Karin Midular lacks the legal authority to dismiss an elected official unless evidence of a crime has been presented, which she has not yet claimed-at least not publically." So much for the rule of law. Fatal mistake. If she was choosing her 'vision' over her own power, she would have either worked within the government to sway them back to her trust - or worked behind the scenes to influence the choice of a moderate successor. Instead, she panics and sacks the voice of the opposition like some two-bit Junta general. Funny how "moderation" and "diplomacy" go out the window when it's your own job that's on the line, innit? I had thought to moderate my operations and bring myself more in line with the Republic stance. The way things are going, I may achieve the latter without the former... ----- -- we all live in a yellow subroutine --
Stitcher Duty.	Posted - 2008.06.06 19:30:00 - [92] Originally by: Shira d'Radonis I completely disagree. You argue that she's a chess player, but someone with such a strategic mind would not have allowed herself to become so isolated. Good point, but of course politics is a vastly more complicated game than chess, and even the best grand masters have pieces that they place less emphasis on. It would be deeply unusual for a politician, but maybe Midular has simply become so focused on the goal that she forgot the need to keep in touch. Alternatively, she found that keeping in touch was directly contrary to her personal ideals. If that's the case, then she should be commended for sticking to her guns, rather than chickening out when the opposition started to mount up. Quote: She has failed to isolate the extremist wings inside the Republic and has allowed them to repeatedly raid Amarr space and infiltrate virtually every level of the government. Actually, I'd say the problem there stems from from over-isolation. The extremist wings have isolated themselves and taken valuable assets with them. I'd be more inclined to say that Midular has failed to include the extremists - rather than taking their ideas into consideration and looking to turn them to profitable ends, or talk them around to her way of thinking, they have wound up being driven away from the core of the Republic. Quote: Would it have been necessary to break a few heads to achieve that goal? Probably. The unfortunate thing is that the Minmatar moderates don't seem to have a real fighter of their own like Shakor to take on the extremists and bring order and sense to the Republic. I doubt that becoming the Premier of the Republic is something that could be achieved by somebody with no fight in them. Midular's almost certainly got a lot of loaded shotguns up her sleeves. I find it admirable that she prefers not to use them. Having said that, you're quite right - a loud, brash fighter is always going to get more attention than the quietly competent one. Quote: Any such attempt at this point would be too little too late. "too little too late" seems to be a common theme among moderates all across the galaxy, these days... - Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.06 20:49:00 - [93] Originally by: Stitcher Good point, but of course politics is a vastly more complicated game than chess, and even the best grand masters have pieces that they place less emphasis on. It would be deeply unusual for a politician, but maybe Midular has simply become so focused on the goal that she forgot the need to keep in touch. The goal is to stay in power and expand that power. She has not done a particularly good job there. If one is to accomplish one's larger objectives, one has to have the power to do it. What good is a clear vision if you lack the capability to realize it? Quote: Alternatively, she found that keeping in touch was directly contrary to her personal ideals. If that's the case, then she should be commended for sticking to her guns, rather than chickening out when the opposition started to mount up. What has it gotten the Republic? Her country is shaking to pieces around her. Some of her military officials have risen up against her, the rest are on the verge of doing so. Cross-border incursions occur on a daily basis without her consent. Her country's national security is in a state of complete disarray. No one is safe while terrorists and brigands run rampant. Criminal factions are now even brazenly claiming whole systems for themselves! If that's not the definition of a failed state, I don't know what is. Quote: Actually, I'd say the problem there stems from from over-isolation. The extremist wings have isolated themselves and taken valuable assets with them. I'd be more inclined to say that Midular has failed to include the extremists - rather than taking their ideas into consideration and looking to turn them to profitable ends, or talk them around to her way of thinking, they have wound up being driven away from the core of the Republic. Alright, a valid point. Let me rephrase. She has failed to isolate extremist thought and thus reduce the number of people who adhere to it. Quote: I doubt that becoming the Premier of the Republic is something that could be achieved by somebody with no fight in them. Midular's almost certainly got a lot of loaded shotguns up her sleeves. I find it admirable that she prefers not to use them. Having said that, you're quite right - a loud, brash fighter is always going to get more attention than the quietly competent one. But again, you say she is a "quietly competent", but how has she been that? Competency involves having a particular set of skills to succeed at a particular task. She has not succeeded as Prime Minister because if she had, she wouldn't be getting thrown out of office as we speak by her fellow lawmakers. The rightness or wrongness of her ideas not withstanding, it is her ability accomplish her goals that defines her competency as a stateswoman. A politician has to be able to build a consensus, and the skillset needed to do that varies from country to country. In the Empire, such a person would have to appear pious and wise. But perhaps in the Republic it needs to be somebody who appears passionate with a sort of rough and tumble demeanor. If you lack the charisma to appeal to your people's cultural preferences, then you are not a competent leader. We're all pod pilots here, so let me use an example we can all understand. Suppose we have a captain of a ship who is knowledgeable in many aspects of space flight. He has no need for charts. He knows every square inch of the ship. He knows every weapon and every tactic to win a battle. But now suppose his crew has no respect for him whatsoever. Suppose he gives an order and no one follows it. Moreover suppose that they will plot their own courses and engage enemies of their choosing and not his. What good are any of his other talents then? The ability to make your people respect your authority is the most important because it makes everything else possible. ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Stitcher Duty.	Posted - 2008.06.06 21:33:00 - [94] Edited by: Stitcher on 06/06/2008 21:36:14 Originally by: Shira d'Radonis But again, you say she is a "quietly competent", but how has she been that? Competency involves having a particular set of skills to succeed at a particular task. She has not succeeded as Prime Minister because if she had, she wouldn't be getting thrown out of office as we speak by her fellow lawmakers. The rightness or wrongness of her ideas not withstanding, it is her ability accomplish her goals that defines her competency as a stateswoman. A politician has to be able to build a consensus, and the skillset needed to do that varies from country to country. In the Empire, such a person would have to appear pious and wise. But perhaps in the Republic it needs to be somebody who appears passionate with a sort of rough and tumble demeanor. If you lack the charisma to appeal to your people's cultural preferences, then you are not a competent leader. Not so. Competent leaders get the job done. Unfortunately, Midular is trying to do a job that involves resolving a deep-rooted and highly intractable problem. This is not an arena in which it is possible to secure instant results. One of the major problems that elected leaders have faced throughout history is that their solution to any given problem needs to be big, showy, immediate and dramatic in order to keep their constituents happy. Unfortunately, immediate, dramatic solutions are (usually) only effective in the short term. More often than not, a human problem is the product of countless woven threads of discord, which need to be carefully picked apart and sorted with time and care. Unfortunately, explaining to the general public that your plan to resolve problem "X" will take twelve years, but is guaranteed to be effective, is simply not possible. People want a solution this week, not ten years from now. In other words, the most competent leaders will never be remembered as such because they will have been removed from office long before their solutions become effective. By which time, some more recent, less competent leader will have crowbarred in their own rushed fix, completely destabilizing the careful process set in motion by their predecessor and ensuring that it never actually gets round to working... ultimately compounding the problem. These are the big flaws with democratic or republic representation - nobody's in charge long enough to get anything done right, and while they are in charge, they're so pre-occupied with prolonging their term of office that the mission falls by the wayside. - Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Taradis The Imperial Assassins	Posted - 2008.06.06 21:59:00 - [95] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Taradis they will tremble at the site of the golden fleet approaching. I just hope that my Matari and Gallente friends do not get caught up in this. You must realize how contradictory that is, right? I hope they do not get caught up in this as innocents. I am mainly speaking of people in my corp.
Taradis The Imperial Assassins	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:04:00 - [96] Originally by: Redbad Originally by: Taradis Taradis takes a sip of his tea as he switches off the Holo News Channel With Prime Minister Midular the Republic has been at relative peace with the Empire and now it seems that the Republic will prove to the rest of New Eden what Primitive Savages they are. I have both Matari and Gallente friends, I feel for them in these dark times with the unrest in the State and Federation and the show of force by Republic and Thukker tribe ships in Yulai. I would hope that cooler heads will prevail in this day and age but I may be wrong about that. But I for one will not let the unlightened savages of the Minmatar Republic threaten the Empire. I hear the beat of the tribal war drums in my head as I lay awake at nights stareing at the ceiling and pondering to myself what the future now holds. Those Savages that are a part of this ouster of Prime Minister Midular have all but sealed their fates they will tremble at the site of the golden fleet approaching. I just hope that my Matari and Gallente friends do not get caught up in this. You words do not strike me as if there is still that little spark of mutual trust. Their is still some mutual trust between us as citizens of new eden, governments cannot be trusted.
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:21:00 - [97] To clarify something for Sapphrine, parliament is always dissolved prior to an election. It means the house no longer sits, legislation does not change - it doesn't mean nothing is done. It's done to prevent to last-minute pushing of legislation to hamstring one side or another from participation in elections. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Rodj Blake PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.06.06 22:55:00 - [98] Originally by: Evanda Char To clarify something for Sapphrine, parliament is always dissolved prior to an election. It means the house no longer sits, legislation does not change - it doesn't mean nothing is done. It's done to prevent to last-minute pushing of legislation to hamstring one side or another from participation in elections. I believe that in uncivilised nations such as the Republic, parliaments are also typically dissolved during a coup d'etat. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Kimochi Rendar Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.06.06 23:05:00 - [99] Kimochi appears in the feed, leaning back in her chair and stretching out her arms, feeling her joints click, obviously tired. This will end in bloodshed. Either Midular's or the Empire's.. Probably both if Heth manages to get his way, which looks more and more likely by the day. If i'm honest then it's probably a good thing for the Republic to have a strong leadership again, and since everyone seems so intent on ripping eachother's throats out at the moment, it's certainly beneficial to have a leader who commands the respect of both the general populace and the armed forces. After all, how can one defend their territory when the troops don't believe in their leadership - and by extention - their cause? Heth might be an arrogant bloodthirsty neanderthal, but that seems to be what the general Matari populace like in a leader, so.. She shrugs.
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.06.06 23:45:00 - [100] Originally by: Nachshon I see peace between the Mandate and the Republic as merely the first step on a path to bringing the Nefantar home - and the incorporation of the Derelik region into the Republic. I would sooner blow my brains out than support such a repulsive idea. San Matari Official forums
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 23:49:00 - [101] Originally by: Rodj Blake I believe that in uncivilised nations such as the Republic, parliaments are also typically dissolved during a coup d'etat. I don't know, we've never had one. How's that investigation into the murder of Doriam II going? Has ~~Emperor~~ Court Chamberlain Karsoth found a suspect yet? -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.06 23:53:00 - [102] Originally by: Kimochi Rendar Kimochi appears in the feed, leaning back in her chair and stretching out her arms, feeling her joints click, obviously tired. This will end in bloodshed. Either Midular's or the Empire's.. Probably both if Heth manages to get his way, which looks more and more likely by the day. If i'm honest then it's probably a good thing for the Republic to have a strong leadership again, and since everyone seems so intent on ripping eachother's throats out at the moment, it's certainly beneficial to have a leader who commands the respect of both the general populace and the armed forces. After all, how can one defend their territory when the troops don't believe in their leadership - and by extention - their cause? Heth might be an arrogant bloodthirsty neanderthal, but that seems to be what the general Matari populace like in a leader, so.. She shrugs. Are you getting Heth and Shakor confused there? I should also note that Republic Fleet would be one example of the Republic's troops, and they seem to be functioning just fine. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Drauqhk Shathet Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 00:15:00 - [103] Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon Originally by: Pliskkenn Midular has removed the only legal means for people of the Republic to replace her. Where have her policys and methods gotten us? Forgive me for saying this but where has the Ray of Matar lead us? The only option I can see for Shakor or another to gain power now is through force, a coup. And that is something that could easily be avoided if she would step down. Excuse me? The law calls for a re-election. Even if Shakor is expelled from the current government, what is there to stop him from running in for the new one? Originally by: Evanda Char To clarify something for Sapphrine, parliament is always dissolved prior to an election. It means the house no longer sits, legislation does not change - it doesn't mean nothing is done. It's done to prevent to last-minute pushing of legislation to hamstring one side or another from participation in elections. What it means is that Karin Midular has effectively prevented anyone from doing anything she does not personally approve of for at least two months. Even after the special elections have concluded there will be a transitional period where the new government will be formed and again, nothing will be done to depart from Midular's vision until the transition is well under way if not complete. We are at a time when we have reports of Thukker and Republic ships flying in cooperation. The Krusual tribe is acting on its own (or at least its militia is) against the Ammatar. There is internal unrest within the Empire. The people of the Republic have not been given satisfactory answers concerning the remaining Starkmanir. In such turmoil perhaps there could have been a better approach for her than to dissolve parliament and retain the state, for how ever short a time, when only her own leadership was called into question. My opinions of Karin Midular's policies or leadership are immaterial. She has been and continues to be the head of state of the Republic. As long as she is in that position I support her, as do many others. When she is deposed, and everyone can see that her orbit has decayed and she is no longer the voice of the people, I will support with equal vigor who so ever succeeds her. I do thank her for her years of service, but it is time she stepped aside. No single Minmatar is the Republic, not Midular, not Shakor. We together are the Republic, the Republic is our strength. Do what you can, with what you have, where you are
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 00:22:00 - [104] Originally by: Drauqhk Shathet What it means is that Karin Midular has effectively prevented anyone from doing anything she does not personally approve of for at least two months. Where did you get that idea? The prime minister is part of parliament. She's basically "dissolved" with the rest of parliament. There is no "dictatorship" now. There is a transitional period in which the old parliament will continue to rule, as it has before, except that there will be no new laws to affect the election. Stop making up policies out of thin air. A vote for no confidence means that the prime minister has to dissolve parliament to make way for new elections. That is the proper governmental process. There is no evil Midular trying to cling to power. She is doing exactly what she was asked to do by the vote of no confidence. If people would just stop coming up with ridiculous claims that have no hold in reality and let the governmental processes continue, we'd all be better off. If you dislike this process, please direct your dislike at Shakor for causing it. If you think it was good what he did, then stop complaining about it.
Nachshon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 00:42:00 - [105] In the end, we are overreacting because some dweeb at the Scope doesn't undeerstand Matari politics. ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom My v
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 00:45:00 - [106] Erm, no, the report states parliament was dissolved, and what legal process follows it. The problem, as ever, lies in people reading what they want to hear, not what is said. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 00:48:00 - [107] arkady you keep saying that Midular had no option but to dissolve it to maintain the diplomatic path but that is simply not true. Lets look at the three options that were available to Midular. 1. stand down as premier. Vote of no confidence, 10% approval rating, limited control of republic forces. A perfectly reasonable response to take. No one would think worse of Midular standing down and would allow parliament to remain in session choosing a new Premier until formal elections could be held. 2. Vote of Confidence to overturn the vote of no confidence. Traditionally used by a Premier if they feel they've been 'ambushed' by a vote when they feel their support will rapidly swell for a revote. Again, seems very unlikely from the news that Midular would have that support. 3. Dissolve parliament and call an immediate general election. This allows Midular to restand but the only reason not to vote of confidence and to do this instead is the additional time to campaign and lobby the people to try and regain the popular vote. 10% approval is appaulling and is a good way past too far gone in almost all electoral maths leading me to conclude that Midular is delaying for petty reasons at best or intentionally to destabilise the Republic. Given the fast moving pace of events at the minute, the findings in Jarizza and the likely imminent war between Caldari and Gallente, you'd think that a forward thinking and republic focused person would go for the option that allowed the republic to gain and maintain a strong position against likely threats from the Amarr and their sabre rattling. Midulars actions are self serving and Narcisistic.
Davlos Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 01:14:00 - [108] Narcisistic? Did you even attempt to use a dictionary properly when you were frantically delving into your ten-cell mind for that word? You've even managed to spell narcissistic wrongly. A vote of no confidence was passed, and elections have to be held two months later. Parliament was dissolved, because the mob has decided that they didn't want this government any longer. The dissolution of Parliament actually works in your favor because the present government can't enact anything to turn the oncoming electoral rules to their advantage. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 01:31:00 - [109] Originally by: Sapphrine arkady you keep saying that Midular had no option but to dissolve it to maintain the diplomatic path but that is simply not true. Lets look at the three options that were available to Midular. 1. stand down as premier. Vote of no confidence, 10% approval rating, limited control of republic forces. A perfectly reasonable response to take. No one would think worse of Midular standing down and would allow parliament to remain in session choosing a new Premier until formal elections could be held. In order to do this, she would have to dissolve parliament. A Prime Minister cannot simply stand down because she requires the mandate of her tribe to do so. Originally by: Sapphrine 2. Vote of Confidence to overturn the vote of no confidence. Traditionally used by a Premier if they feel they've been 'ambushed' by a vote when they feel their support will rapidly swell for a revote. Again, seems very unlikely from the news that Midular would have that support. Yes, unlikely in this situation. Originally by: Sapphrine 3. Dissolve parliament and call an immediate general election. This allows Midular to restand but the only reason not to vote of confidence and to do this instead is the additional time to campaign and lobby the people to try and regain the popular vote. 10% approval is appaulling and is a good way past too far gone in almost all electoral maths leading me to conclude that Midular is delaying for petty reasons at best or intentionally to destabilise the Republic. Given the fast moving pace of events at the minute, the findings in Jarizza and the likely imminent war between Caldari and Gallente, you'd think that a forward thinking and republic focused person would go for the option that allowed the republic to gain and maintain a strong position against likely threats from the Amarr and their sabre rattling. Midulars actions are self serving and Narcisistic. The approval rating comes from polls. Polls are by nature biased as they are only a sample of opinion among people who respond to polls, and it's been proven in many elections that this is not the same grouping as people who actually vote. Another reason to take up to two months to call new elections is, for example, to reveal the truth of what is going on. The fact is, Ushra'Khan have not one clue what has been going on in the Republic because you took yourselves out of it, and declared yourselves enemies to its leadership. So it's not entirely surprising that the PM doesn't tell you what is happening and why, now, is it? Yes, what has happened makes her look weak. Anyone who has been bullied in the playground knows that intelligence often looks weak. Government is about more than shouting loudly and hitting things. It's about the people on the planets whom we cannot protect. You want to show me the weapons on your ship that can stop the Amarr waltzing up to a planet and bombarding it? Because of that, government includes things like politics, compromise, espionage and trade. Whatever happens, EM will do all it can to protect the Republic, no matter who leads it, no matter how dire the crisis becomes. But I really wish it wasn't our own people pushing us into a war with not one thought in their heads on what it will cost to win it. Pod pilots are not the be all and end all of the military. Immortality is not a mass effect. Thought can be. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 02:23:00 - [110] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 07/06/2008 02:25:17 Evanda, while U'K have no meaningful military presence in republic space on a daily basis, we continue to have close ties with its people. Although we believe Midular must go and the republic needs throw of the shackles of compromise, we still have friends, family and community who we communicate with and visit regular. Not to mention our trade partnerships, supply lines and the many other ways we do business with the people of the republic every day. And of course you will still find a few among us based in the republic, working with its agents, agitating for change by more indirect methods than the face of U'K I present here. No clue? Far from it, we are well aware of what is going down on the homeworlds. I say again: Rise sons and daughters of Mater, rise! -----------------------------------------
Kudon Astraisx 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 02:40:00 - [111] If the Ushra'khan truly wished to effect change within the Republic, they would have had representatives stand for election and work within the system. Unlike inflexible, dictatorial, authoritarian systems, there are mechanisms for change built into the Republic. U'K have taken traitorous actions in the past, including placing a bounty on Midular's head. Removing that bounty and looking for ways to work with the Republic rather than against it would go a long way. That said, we must recall that we first are Minmatar. That is, we may have family quarrels, but we are still brothers. --
Nachshon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 02:51:00 - [112] We are true brothers. We fight all the time, but we still love each other, and if either is truly threatened, the other will come to his aid. ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom My v
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 03:35:00 - [113] Originally by: Karn Mithralia Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 07/06/2008 02:25:17 Evanda, while U'K have no meaningful military presence in republic space on a daily basis, we continue to have close ties with its people. Although we believe Midular must go and the republic needs throw of the shackles of compromise, we still have friends, family and community who we communicate with and visit regular. Not to mention our trade partnerships, supply lines and the many other ways we do business with the people of the republic every day. And of course you will still find a few among us based in the republic, working with its agents, agitating for change by more indirect methods than the face of U'K I present here. No clue? Far from it, we are well aware of what is going down on the homeworlds. I say again: Rise sons and daughters of Mater, rise! Yes Karn, talking to someone in a bar while passing through and reading the news sometimes does not count as a clue. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.07 04:07:00 - [114] Originally by: Stitcher Not so. Competent leaders get the job done. Unfortunately, Midular is trying to do a job that involves resolving a deep-rooted and highly intractable problem. This is not an arena in which it is possible to secure instant results. One of the major problems that elected leaders have faced throughout history is that their solution to any given problem needs to be big, showy, immediate and dramatic in order to keep their constituents happy. Unfortunately, immediate, dramatic solutions are (usually) only effective in the short term. More often than not, a human problem is the product of countless woven threads of discord, which need to be carefully picked apart and sorted with time and care. Unfortunately, explaining to the general public that your plan to resolve problem "X" will take twelve years, but is guaranteed to be effective, is simply not possible. People want a solution this week, not ten years from now. But it seems to me that your argument essentially boils down to saying that she'd be a great Prime Minister of the Minmatar Republic if it wasn't for all those Minmatar in it. Right-minded policies alone do not make a great leader. A great leader is someone who has to be able to do what is necessary to get those policies put through no matter what the timetable. All of a leader's competencies are irrelevant if they lack the ability to have their will enforced and their authority recognized. Her opponents make her out to be some kind of tyrant, but she is anything but! If only she had the kind of power a tyrant would possess! The problem was that she would disregard the arguments of her political rivals and use instances of violence inconsistently. Fear is only an effective tactic if the people you are going after believe that the violence will continue indefinitely and that they are powerless to stop it. The problem is that in each instance, she was already weak and her enemies knew it. In that case, all force does is angers people. Quote: In other words, the most competent leaders will never be remembered as such because they will have been removed from office long before their solutions become effective. By which time, some more recent, less competent leader will have crowbarred in their own rushed fix, completely destabilizing the careful process set in motion by their predecessor and ensuring that it never actually gets round to working... ultimately compounding the problem. So you're saying that a great leader is someone who can produce desired results under ideal conditions but will never get the opportunity to because their populations will never go along with it? If the results end up being the same between a lousy leader and a supposedly great one, what difference does it make? Take the current situation. Midular pursued a policy of maintaining the peace, and by managing her domestic affairs poorly, the extremists are going to take power and declare the war she's been avoiding. I don't think this was inevitable. I think a better handling of her domestic enemies could've prevented this. And yes, if some people had to die to achieve that goal, then sobeit. Quote: These are the big flaws with democratic or republican representation - nobody's in charge long enough to get anything done right, and while they are in charge, they're so pre-occupied with prolonging their term of office that the mission falls by the wayside. That's one point we can agree on. Democracy is a gross error in a society's judgment. ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.07 04:24:00 - [115] Originally by: Arkady Sadik The prime minister is part of parliament. She's basically "dissolved" with the rest of parliament. There is no "dictatorship" now. There is a transitional period in which the old parliament will continue to rule, as it has before, except that there will be no new laws to affect the election. Stop making up policies out of thin air. A vote for no confidence means that the prime minister has to dissolve parliament to make way for new elections. That is the proper governmental process. There is no evil Midular trying to cling to power. She is doing exactly what she was asked to do by the vote of no confidence. If people would just stop coming up with ridiculous claims that have no hold in reality and let the governmental processes continue, we'd all be better off. If you dislike this process, please direct your dislike at Shakor for causing it. If you think it was good what he did, then stop complaining about it. Now, you know very well that she has not "dissolved herself". She will continue administering in the interim. But this should be interesting! We finally get to see the Minmatar Republic's notoriously "free and fair" elections. I'm looking forward to seeing how many Brutors are "evacuated" from their homes in areas with civil unrest right before the election eventhough the law states rather clearly that people have to vote in the district they live and are registered in. No doubt voting machines will be scarce in those areas with so many supposedly disloyal elements. I think it will also be remarkable how many transports suddenly break down on election day in Brutor regions. Indeed, there's all sorts of fun things to look forward to! I mean, Shakor has been dismissed from government, so maybe we'll see some treason charges in the weeks to come. I'm sure the opposition parties will be thoroughly investigated with Midular's police ripping through their offices, removing documents and just generally causing a disturbance. There'll no doubt be plenty of people brought in for questioning. Perhaps the whole lot will be implicated in Yun's little conspiracy. Protests will be broken up, petitioners and canvassers will be held for inciting riots... Yes, I am very much looking forward to observing these elections as a true example of the value of democracy! ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Vanessa Sabine Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.07 04:37:00 - [116] Hmmm... Rule by the weak and indecisive, or rule by those who believe they had to nuke the village in order to save it? Talk about a losing proposition.
Zimarla The House of Marek	Posted - 2008.06.07 05:15:00 - [117] Edited by: Zimarla on 07/06/2008 05:16:21 Good god, you people don't pay attention. Prime ministers are selected by the majority party of the parliament. If she simply resigned, the exact same majority party that selected her would still be in power. All they would do would be to select another just like her. By dissolving parliament, she opens up new elections so that a new majority party could be chosen. That, in turn, opens up the ability to have a completely new prime minister. Prime ministers are not presidents, elected by the votes of the people. You pick your prime minister by picking your parliament members wisely. Put down your Molotov coctails and learn how your own government works for a change, people.
Kimochi Rendar Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.06.07 07:07:00 - [118] Originally by: Evanda Char Are you getting Heth and Shakor confused there? I should also note that Republic Fleet would be one example of the Republic's troops, and they seem to be functioning just fine. Uh yes sorry. It's been a long couple of weeks, I got the names confused. The man I was referring to was Maleatu Shakor, not Tibus Heth. Ahem. Anyway, it's clear to me that what little faith people had in Karin Midular has all but burnt out. A shame really, as the only real way to peace would be for the Matari to co-operate with the Amarr... War will set both civilizations back years in terms of tolerance for eachother. She sighs. It seems yet again that the Brutor tribe believe the only way to peace is to obliterate everyone else.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 07:38:00 - [119] Originally by: Davlos Narcisistic? Did you even attempt to use a dictionary properly when you were frantically delving into your ten-cell mind for that word? You've even managed to spell narcissistic wrongly. Well done, I mispelt a word. That happens when you're busy fighting a war instead of drinking tea as well as actually trying to respond to apologist pansies on a forum who seem to spend all their time sitting on galnet trying to prop up a wet flanel leader rather than learning how to fight. As for the rest of your drivel and the continuing spouting of evanda: Standing down after a vote of no confidence. The vote does not require a premier to stand down no but it is a VERY clear indication that they are no longer considered competent. They are well within the bounds of law to resign and for the parliament to elect a new individual in their stead. This has happened throughout political history of democracies so don't just try and pretend it can't happen. Dissolving parliament for an election in two months time when a major leader is desperately needed at this time is both childish and dangerous for the republic. Transitions of power are never easy but she's making this one as rocky as possible and it all seems to point to her refusal to let go of power when, after years of increasing complaints on her leadership she's been given the ultimatum of a vote of no confidence. I can respect that loyalists wish to remain loyal, funnily enough, but try to remain loyal to the republic instead of to Midular and her appologist policy. You've thrown words such as Traitor and terrorist at us making you sound like amarr. If a new military order comes in and U'K's stance of a more aggressive action to freeing slaves becomes policy I suspect you'll find yourselves the outcasts if you keep clinging to your tea cups.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 08:05:00 - [120] Originally by: Evanda Char Yes Karn, talking to someone in a bar while passing through and reading the news sometimes does not count as a clue. Occasionally getting a ship out the hanger and flying it about doesn't make you a fighter and defender of people but you still claim to be a paramilitary group rather than apologist politicians. From all the spluttering from EM I wander if the majority of EM will actually embrace a fight should it finally become the policy of the republic to take the fight to the Amarrians or will they simply read the official announcement, find a loop hole that doesn't order everyone to go shoot an amarrian and decide that the bit about sitting at home eating biscuits is for them.
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 08:38:00 - [121] Edited by: Evanda Char on 07/06/2008 08:41:06 Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Evanda Char Yes Karn, talking to someone in a bar while passing through and reading the news sometimes does not count as a clue. Occasionally getting a ship out the hanger and flying it about doesn't make you a fighter and defender of people but you still claim to be a paramilitary group rather than apologist politicians. From all the spluttering from EM I wander if the majority of EM will actually embrace a fight should it finally become the policy of the republic to take the fight to the Amarrians or will they simply read the official announcement, find a loop hole that doesn't order everyone to go shoot an amarrian and decide that the bit about sitting at home eating biscuits is for them. Oh look, smacktalk from Sapphrine. What a shock. It doesn't change the fact, you have never been a part of the Republic, you have never worked for it, you know nothing about what is going on behind the scenes. You don't know the truth. You don't even have the faintest clue what being Matari means. You didn't even know what dissolution of Parliament was. You were born, I assume, in the State, you lived in Providence, you fight in Domain. Do you even know which worlds in the Republic are inhabited, and which lie barren? Can you even pronounce the names of our stars? I'm sure it's very easy for you to fling yourself into murder day after day, knowing that no-one who is kith or kin of yours is on the line. It's obviously very easy for you not to think about it. You're clearly very brave and fearsome, and the multitude of slaves you've rescued through force of arms make the millions (yes, I said millions) that EM have brought home look paltry. And if you want to know what we do when we take our ships out of the hanger and occassionally fly them about, ask the Amarr. Who, you'll note, are a damn site happier hanging about in their own space with you than they are raiding up here with us. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
zoolkhan Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.07 10:12:00 - [122] Originally by: Nachshon YES! I have long questioned Karin Midular's strength to lead. Now her resignation seems likely. I await stonger leadership in the future. ..and without that obstacle i expect more unity amongst the tribes and clans. this was about time. she digged her own grave. we are not heading into war, we have been in it since quiet a while but now that half of the republic is no longer brainwashed by karin "1 isk worth" midular i expect more people to swap their luxus yacht for a combat vessel and remember those who are in need of our help recruiting -forum
Stitcher Duty.	Posted - 2008.06.07 10:30:00 - [123] Originally by: Sapphrine Dissolving parliament for an election in two months time when a major leader is desperately needed at this time is both childish and dangerous for the republic. Transitions of power are never easy but she's making this one as rocky as possible and it all seems to point to her refusal to let go of power when, after years of increasing complaints on her leadership she's been given the ultimatum of a vote of no confidence. I've said it elsewhere, I'll say it here. Prior to this time twenty-four hours ago, my understanding of the Republic's political system was effectively non-existent. I knew who Karin Midular is and that was basically it. All these news reports surrounding this issue prompted me to take a "crash course" in Minmatar politics. This crash course lasted three hours, and consisted of two books, three mnemonic data uploads, a talk show on a Vherokior tribe feed net where they interviewed a professor of politics from the Republic University, and five minutes of discussion on this GalNet board. And yet it seems that I'm already more familiar with the way the Minmatar Government works than a lot of born-and-bred Minmatar are, and certainly the whole of the Ushra'Khan. As I understand it, what has happened is this. 1) A vote of no confidence against Midular passes. 2) Parliament is dissolved. What this means is that no official policy can be made by any party (including Midular's). Only the autonomous functions of government persist. The only thing that has ceased is the process of having motions submitted to Parliament and voted upon. A general election will be held ASAP, as per the Republic's constitutio. Midular is unlikely to win that election. 3) One reporter who clearly doesn't actually understand what dissolving parliament actually means breaks the story in a rather sensational way, and his editors are presumably so rushed to get the story out that they fail to vet the story properly (or they suffered from the same ignorance as the reporter). The result is an inept article published on a major galactic news feed. 4) millions of Minmatar citizens, confused by their own lack of detailed knowledge of their own government's process, and disturbed by the hyped-up journalism, panic. Emigration skylaunches, riots and protests crop up everywhere. Out here in the Black, the usual wave of death threats and vitriol rolls onto GalNet and sticks. From what I gather, dissolving parliament: A) Was the correct and diplomatic thing to do in response to a vote of no confidence B) Has not "destabilized" the government in any way, as autonomous functions continue to tick over c) Is emphatically NOT the start of a power grab by Midular, because she's effectively kicked herself out of office. Quote: Transitions of power are never easy but she's making this one as rocky as possible and it all seems to point to her refusal to let go of power when, after years of increasing complaints on her leadership she's been given the ultimatum of a vote of no confidence. Midular's response was to immediately strip herself of all power and hold an immediate general election which she is unlikely to win, and you think she's refusing to let go? You have your facts muddled up. - Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Zimarla The House of Marek	Posted - 2008.06.07 11:37:00 - [124] Originally by: Sapphrine Standing down after a vote of no confidence. The vote does not require a premier to stand down no but it is a VERY clear indication that they are no longer considered competent. They are well within the bounds of law to resign and for the parliament to elect a new individual in their stead. This has happened throughout political history of democracies so don't just try and pretend it can't happen. How many times do people have to tell you U'Kers? If she "just stepped down", the majority party that put her there in the first place would still be in charge. They would either choose her again, or choose someone exactly like her. The only way for that majority party to change is for parliament to be re-elected. Only then is it likely that change will happen.
Dastiris Arsomon	Posted - 2008.06.07 11:52:00 - [125] I am shocked by the ignorace of the Amarrians for the political reality of their neighbors. What happens is somethink physical to Democracies and republics. What i am although fear is that in this turbulent times we have the recent month it wouldnt be wise the Minmatars dont have a central voice as tensions with empire will become more intense. The secret words foretell the victory of ideals.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:12:00 - [126] Originally by: Evanda Char Oh look, smacktalk from Sapphrine. What a shock. You say smack, i say the truth hurts, acting all petty because you'd rather no one mentioned you're a bunch of apologists seems far more likely. Originally by: Evanda Char It doesn't change the fact, you have never been a part of the Republic, you have never worked for it, you know nothing about what is going on behind the scenes. You don't know the truth. You don't even have the faintest clue what being Matari means. You didn't even know what dissolution of Parliament was. You were born, I assume, in the State, you lived in Providence, you fight in Domain. Do you even know which worlds in the Republic are inhabited, and which lie barren? Can you even pronounce the names of our stars? I'm sure it's very easy for you to fling yourself into murder day after day, knowing that no-one who is kith or kin of yours is on the line. It's obviously very easy for you not to think about it. You're clearly very brave and fearsome, and the multitude of slaves you've rescued through force of arms make the millions (yes, I said millions) that EM have brought home look paltry. You're right, they're not my kin by blood. They are my brothers in arms. I fight for a cause. I chose this path not out of revenge but out of belief and the cost was high. Losing all connections to my family to fight for a cause I believe in not enough of a sacrifice for you? Whilst we're at it, I'm happy to see EM finally admitting that sitting around doesn't get the job done as effectively as actively going out there and getting our people back. That is what you meant wasn't it? Originally by: Evanda Char And if you want to know what we do when we take our ships out of the hanger and occassionally fly them about, ask the Amarr. Who, you'll note, are a damn site happier hanging about in their own space with you than they are raiding up here with us. Yes I've seen your efforts out and about, a ship here a ship there. Sometimes flying around a large formation in a parade formation yet some how getting nothing done or catching any slavers as they simply evade your slow lumbering task force. Funny thing was, after our last two week clandestine operation into the heart of amarrian space, amarr it self we noted a distinct movement of the slavers into Minmatar space as they fled our wrath favouring their chances on yours.... they didn't seem to come back... while we were there. Just to clarify, I have alot more respect for the fighters of PIE and VV at this point than I do for EM. VV and PIE fought tooth and nail and whilst I do not agree with their religious beliefs and their insistence on supporting slavery, I can respect their fighting spirit. And please don't make yourself look daft quoting figures publicly like you've done in the past, you only embarass your alliance showing the minimal impact you've had on the fight to date whilst simply staying within the republic, drinking tea and eating biscuits.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:17:00 - [127] Originally by: Zimarla How many times do people have to tell you U'Kers? If she "just stepped down", the majority party that put her there in the first place would still be in charge. They would either choose her again, or choose someone exactly like her. The only way for that majority party to change is for parliament to be re-elected. Only then is it likely that change will happen. Think about the politics a bit. Vote of no confidenced so why would they choose her again. Party and faction politics doesn't work like that. Also, the party wishes to stay in power so it wont wish to be hit by yet another vote of no confidence. ergo, they wont choose a leader just like her. A re-shuffle and a parliamentary elected prime minister till the next election would allow for a swift transition of rule and keep someone firmly at the helm with minimal transition chaos, something we desperately need given current events. Sure, two months to hold an election and have a clear change would be great but events don't seem to be allowing for that atm. Given the only part of government not collapsing atm is the republic fleet I wouldn't be the least bit suprised to see them exert a little known military edict allowing them to take control of the republic temporarily if its faced by a critical threat. I don't know for sure it exists but it wouldn't be the first time an emergency measure had been added to a constitution.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:20:00 - [128] stitcher, read up to my response outlining the three avenues available to a premier failing a vote of no confidence. Of the 3 options hers was the most destabilising. I have not said it wasn't legal, merely the one that drags things on the longest and keeps anyone from hitting the ground running right now.
Davlos Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 12:57:00 - [129] Originally by: Sapphrine Well done, I mispelt a word. That happens when you're busy fighting a war instead of drinking tea as well as actually trying to respond to apologist pansies on a forum who seem to spend all their time sitting on galnet trying to prop up a wet flanel leader rather than learning how to fight. Oh, this is rich. I don't care what kind of corporation's vat you came from, but the next I see you in space, regardless of diplomacy, you will die. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:14:00 - [130] And by doing so you and all of EM will become KOS to Ushra'Khan. Is that want you want Davros, or would you perhaps better serve your people by growing thicker skin? -----------------------------------------
Davlos Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:21:00 - [131] Edited by: Davlos on 07/06/2008 13:22:38 Is this not a mere reflection of what yourselves have been spouting all this while? 1 ISK bounty. Sounding familiar now? I'm just seeing if you practice what you preach. You don't want a reasoned debate. No man, no problem. But then again, seeing yourselves to be allied with the free of spirit, trapped in egos that the 'Freecaptains' are, I'm not too surprised of the source and alignment of the doctrine of settling ideological arguments. --- Originally by: Revan Neferis Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:25:00 - [132] Originally by: Karn Mithralia And by doing so you and all of EM will become KOS to Ushra'Khan. Is that want you want Davros, or would you perhaps better serve your people by growing thicker skin? I'm inclined to think he has grounds for an honour duel. Let's face it, Sapphrine has repeatedly insulted every single member of Electus Matari. I've said it before and I'll, sadly, say it again. Ignorance is not a point of view. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:29:00 - [133] Originally by: Evanda Char I'm inclined to think he has grounds for an honour duel. Let's face it, Sapphrine has repeatedly insulted every single member of Electus Matari. I've said it before and I'll, sadly, say it again. Ignorance is not a point of view. actually i've been quite pleasant about 17th given their willingness to commit to fighting if the republic say so :)
Karin Katari	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:32:00 - [134] I could use more target practice. Keep fighting with my comrades, specifically my commander and I'll show you just how much I enjoy having another alliance to shoot at.
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:32:00 - [135] Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Evanda Char I'm inclined to think he has grounds for an honour duel. Let's face it, Sapphrine has repeatedly insulted every single member of Electus Matari. I've said it before and I'll, sadly, say it again. Ignorance is not a point of view. actually i've been quite pleasant about 17th given their willingness to commit to fighting if the republic say so :) Was that while they were mining? Or when they undocked in a ship and flew about in it a bit? -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Rocius Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:34:00 - [136] Originally by: Sapphrine actually i've been quite pleasant about 17th given their willingness to commit to fighting if the republic say so :) Which has been long standing policy in EM. If the orders are given to fight, we fight. Untill those orders come, we do what needs to be done here at home. How strange that you seem pleased if it comes to a fight, but otherwise, its nothing more than a grounds to insult us. Yet another example of U'K politics seeing what they want when they want, and only if its fits their typical rhetoric.
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:38:00 - [137] Edited by: Evanda Char on 07/06/2008 13:38:41 Originally by: Sapphrine And please don't make yourself look daft quoting figures publicly like you've done in the past, you only embarass your alliance showing the minimal impact you've had on the fight to date whilst simply staying within the republic, drinking tea and eating biscuits. Those weren't the alliance's figures. They were mine. And I can understand why you wouldn't want facts to interrupt your diatribe, after all, you haven't used any so far. As for the minimal impact we've had, we had people in Amarr in the last two weeks. During your active hours. They didn't see you. Saw plenty of PIE though. That's an impressively covert operation. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:39:00 - [138] Originally by: Rocius Which has been long standing policy in EM. If the orders are given to fight, we fight. Untill those orders come, we do what needs to be done here at home. How strange that you seem pleased if it comes to a fight, but otherwise, its nothing more than a grounds to insult us. Yet another example of U'K politics seeing what they want when they want, and only if its fits their typical rhetoric. the same could well be said of EM, CVA, PIE, VV or in fact any of the paramilitary groups. We all have different view points and when they clash the other side will always see the facts differently. Welcome to politics.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:42:00 - [139] Originally by: Evanda Char Edited by: Evanda Char on 07/06/2008 13:38:41 Originally by: Sapphrine And please don't make yourself look daft quoting figures publicly like you've done in the past, you only embarass your alliance showing the minimal impact you've had on the fight to date whilst simply staying within the republic, drinking tea and eating biscuits. Those weren't the alliance's figures. They were mine. And I can understand why you wouldn't want facts to interrupt your diatribe, after all, you haven't used any so far. As for the minimal impact we've had, we had people in Amarr in the last two weeks. During your active hours. They didn't see you. Saw plenty of PIE though. That's an impressively covert operation. would those be the two weeks since we left? Glad to see you're coming to the party a bit more, shame it was a touch late. So, as loyalists observing the border, what were your guys doing in Amarr? :)
Drauqhk Shathet Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:46:00 - [140] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Originally by: Drauqhk Shathet What it means is that Karin Midular has effectively prevented anyone from doing anything she does not personally approve of for at least two months. Where did you get that idea? The prime minister is part of parliament. She's basically "dissolved" with the rest of parliament. There is no "dictatorship" now. There is a transitional period in which the old parliament will continue to rule, as it has before, except that there will be no new laws to affect the election. Stop making up policies out of thin air. A vote for no confidence means that the prime minister has to dissolve parliament to make way for new elections. That is the proper governmental process. There is no evil Midular trying to cling to power. She is doing exactly what she was asked to do by the vote of no confidence. If people would just stop coming up with ridiculous claims that have no hold in reality and let the governmental processes continue, we'd all be better off. If you dislike this process, please direct your dislike at Shakor for causing it. If you think it was good what he did, then stop complaining about it. So who now acts for the Republic? Who makes decisions if not the Prime Minister? If she has included herself in the dissolution of parliament, then she has done us all a great disservice in leaving us without leadership. You say that she had to dissolve parliament, I say that there were other choices open to her. You state that there will be no new laws to affect the election, I am saying that there will be no new laws to affect anything. I did not explicitly say that she was clinging to power, but you seem to be acknowledging such when you state that the old parliament will continue to rule but it is powerless to make changes, so therefore, Midular remains in charge when clearly the majority that put her in power no longer exists. I am genuinely saddened that parliament has become so one sided and that what good Prime Minister Midular has done in the past is so easily swept away. I do not wish to move the Republic towards war but how can I support Karin Midular when she is clearly no longer the voice of her people. Until she is duly replaced by a successor lawfully chosen by the people, I will support her as the head of state of the Republic as is my duty, but I can no longer defend her choices as what is best for the Republic. Do what you can, with what you have, where you are
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:51:00 - [141] Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Evanda Char Edited by: Evanda Char on 07/06/2008 13:38:41 Originally by: Sapphrine And please don't make yourself look daft quoting figures publicly like you've done in the past, you only embarass your alliance showing the minimal impact you've had on the fight to date whilst simply staying within the republic, drinking tea and eating biscuits. Those weren't the alliance's figures. They were mine. And I can understand why you wouldn't want facts to interrupt your diatribe, after all, you haven't used any so far. As for the minimal impact we've had, we had people in Amarr in the last two weeks. During your active hours. They didn't see you. Saw plenty of PIE though. That's an impressively covert operation. would those be the two weeks since we left? Glad to see you're coming to the party a bit more, shame it was a touch late. So, as loyalists observing the border, what were your guys doing in Amarr? :) You'll note that the person who referred to guarding the border wasn't me. And funny thing, I've noticed that ships explode just as luridly outside of Amarr. And without all that annoying shrieking from the Navy and Customs. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Dante Karaal Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:52:00 - [142] Children of Matar, it becomes clearer by the day that a cancer has taken root in the Republic for which there may be no cure. Tribal unity and pride has been drowning in bureaucracy and appeasement for far too long. There are whispers that war is coming, they are wrong; WAR IS ALREADY UPON YOU. It has been so since the day the first of us was taken by the shackles of slavery. How long will you sit back and allow the freedoms of ALL matari to be trampled on so flagrantly to preserve a peace which exists only in the minds of the ignorant and apathetic? Electus Matari: renounce the witch Midular and save a shred of honour or go down with her - I care not which - matar has use for neither cowards nor conspirators when faced with the ever looming threat of the Empire.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 13:54:00 - [143] well it appears that Davlos is both incapable of fighting for either honour or come to chat, whichever he was planning to do. I just came to have a chat in Gulfonodi and as soon as offer a place and a location he just seemed to dissapear.... funny that. No fighting spirit, nor even the manners to respond to an offer to talk in person.
Rocius Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 14:15:00 - [144] Originally by: Dante Karaal Children of Matar, it becomes clearer by the day that a cancer has taken root ...... for which there may be no cure. I have long said that the policies of the U'K are as such. Originally by: Dante Karaal How long will you sit back and allow the freedoms of ALL matari to be trampled on so flagrantly by the minds of the ignorant and apathetic? U'K has been at this very thing for years already Originally by: Dante Karaal Electus Matari: renounce the witch Midular and save a shred of honour or go down with her - I care not which - matar has use for neither cowards nor conspirators when faced with the ever looming threat of the Empire. Or, how about you stop being cowards and conspirators by working against the elected government that our people chose. If the people chose Midular again, then what? Where does that leave you, yet again? I am sure rattling your sabres as always. It doesnt mater what happens, the U'K will likely always see only what they want to see, and damn the realities. Who tried to wrest control of low sec MH? ...Fail Who tried to establish their own little nation..... Epic Fail. Who has split Matari forces, wasted countless billions of isk, assets and untold lives in an ill concieved and poorly planned attempt to carve out their own little nation because they didnt get what they wanted right then and ther? Epic Win. Yeah, be proud of that... I should have long learned that trying to speak resonably and open with some of the members of the U'K is a waste of breath and time. There are still many members of the U'K that are resonable and decent people, its a shame that those often enough with the least clue, are the most vocal.
Poreuomai Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.07 14:21:00 - [145] Originally by: Rocius If the orders are given to fight, we fight. I am slightly confused, as I've done several tasks for the republic where I was asked to attack specific Amarr ships. Never the less, brothers, I would humbly request that unity be a high priority amoung us Minmatar at this time.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 14:25:00 - [146] Rocius, you call us cowards, your guy just dissapeared as soon as i entered local. Lets try that again, pick a low sec system if you want to have a chat and pass it to me and we can talk about this in person. If you feel that we are cowards lets see if one of you is even willing to meet me in space.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 14:31:00 - [147] EM leadership, pick a spokeperson who is actually allowed to speak for you and do pick your stance. Will you support Davlos and his kin if they fire on U'K pilots or will you turn a blind eye to this warmongering. I find it amusing that you are incapable of such fighting talk to the amarrians but when faced with a group of freedom fighters freeing minmatar people you're more willing to offer to try and kill them on sight. For all you like objecting to our stance, at least we're clear about it. EM seems like a ship up a certain creek without paddle or helmsman.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 14:42:00 - [148] Quote: So who now acts for the Republic? Who makes decisions if not the Prime Minister? If she has included herself in the dissolution of parliament, then she has done us all a great disservice in leaving us without leadership. Ok, I seem to have problems explaining this. I'll try again. A vote of no confidence is a tool useable by parliament to express dissatisfaction with the prime minister. It is not legally binding in any way, it is mainly advisory. The prime minister can completely ignore it. There is nothing legally binding about it. If the prime minister chooses not to ignore it, the best option to reinstate confidence into the government after a vote of no confidence is to call for re-elections. The only way for the prime minister to call for premature re-elections is to dissolve parliament. "Dissolution of parliament" is the only way for the prime minister to force re-elections. What it means is that parliament arranges for re-elections at the earliest possible moment, but to keep the Republic from falling apart, effectively continues to govern until the elections happen. There is no possibility for a new government to come out of nowhere and replace the old. This is the one and only way for the prime minister to actually change the government, as a vote of no confidence would request. So to sum up, the normal, expected, and usual steps are: 1) Vote of no confidence 2) Dissolution of parliament and re-elections 3) New parliament is elected and replaces the old Calling for (1) but then saying (2) is bad does not work. You can have all of it, or none of it. Quote: You say that she had to dissolve parliament, I say that there were other choices open to her. Yes. As the vote of no confidence is not legally binding in any way, she could have ignored it. Would you have preferred that? Quote: You state that there will be no new laws to affect the election, I am saying that there will be no new laws to affect anything. That is perfectly true. If you think this is bad, please direct any complaints at Shakor for calling a vote of no confidence, as that was the expected result when that happened. Quote: I did not explicitly say that she was clinging to power, [...] so therefore, Midular remains in charge when clearly the majority that put her in power no longer exists. You do realize that it is somewhat weird to claim someone is clinging to power if they just removed themselves in the only legal way they have? Quote: Until she is duly replaced by a successor lawfully chosen by the people, I will support her as the head of state of the Republic as is my duty, but I can no longer defend her choices as what is best for the Republic. No one asked you to. There will be elections as soon as possible. Please stop giving weird ideas like Midular "clinging to power" while government processes are allowed to work. Midular did the one thing she was asked to, and we'll now see where it goes.
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 14:50:00 - [149] Now now Rocius, you want to talk about facts and facing them.. Ushra'Khan based in Molden Heath to strike at the Amarr. To help protect the locals of this border region we launched anti-pirate operations and helped form the Molden Heath Security Force. After the assassination of the Emperor the gates in the area were shut down. We moved to Amamake to bring us closer to the Amarr Empire. Ushra'Khan built an outpost as a battle platform to hold back Amarrian expansion in Providence. We fought constantly in enemy territory for over a year causing substantial damage and holding their expansion at bay. We managed to expand to two outposts but were eventually overrun by the slavers and their minions. Who has wasted lives trying to carve out a nation. Not us, that has never been our goal. We seek to free our people and end slavery by any means. Was it Electus Matari? Of course not, lets look at at that.... .. .. .. You broadcast drivel on IGS. As all the cool Gallente kids say, fail tres epic. We have never hidden what we do or why. Where we have failed, we have failed specatacularly because we went against all the odds in the name of what is right. We survived, we have moved to new fronts. We go on, the war continues. I would rather that than be as mediocre and as impotent as you.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 14:52:00 - [150] Originally by: Arkady Sadik If the prime minister chooses not to ignore it, the best option to reinstate confidence into the government after a vote of no confidence is to call for re-elections. The only way for the prime minister to call for premature re-elections is to dissolve parliament. not true. For someone accusing people of ignoring the truth you're doing it an awful lot. Originally by: Arkady Sadik "Dissolution of parliament" is the only way for the prime minister to force re-elections. What it means is that parliament arranges for re-elections at the earliest possible moment, but to keep the Republic from falling apart, effectively continues to govern until the elections happen. Again not true. They do not govern, they caretake. There is a notable difference in powers. Originally by: Arkady Sadik 1) Vote of no confidence 2) Dissolution of parliament and re-elections 3) New parliament is elected and replaces the old Calling for (1) but then saying (2) is bad does not work. You can have all of it, or none of it. Funnily enough they can because she had options available that wouldn't have left the republic in quite such a state of disarray. You keep claiming to be loyalist but all i'm seeing are die hard fanatics to Midular and not the republic. You refuse to acknowlege that the Premier could have stood down and a new leader have been selected, you refuse to acknowledge she could have called for a vote of confidence if she felt she had support.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.06.07 15:12:00 - [151] Edited by: Victor Vision on 07/06/2008 15:22:27 Originally by: Stitcher From what I gather, dissolving parliament: A) Was the correct and diplomatic thing to do in response to a vote of no confidence B) Has not "destabilized" the government in any way, as autonomous functions continue to tick over c) Is emphatically NOT the start of a power grab by Midular, because she's effectively kicked herself out of office. Quote: Transitions of power are never easy but she's making this one as rocky as possible and it all seems to point to her refusal to let go of power when, after years of increasing complaints on her leadership she's been given the ultimatum of a vote of no confidence. Midular's response was to immediately strip herself of all power and hold an immediate general election which she is unlikely to win, and you think she's refusing to let go? You have your facts muddled up. Hear, hear. A voice of reason. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki
Stitcher Duty.	Posted - 2008.06.07 15:16:00 - [152] Originally by: Sapphrine Originally by: Arkady Sadik If the prime minister chooses not to ignore it, the best option to reinstate confidence into the government after a vote of no confidence is to call for re-elections. The only way for the prime minister to call for premature re-elections is to dissolve parliament. not true. Prove it. - Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 15:28:00 - [153] Originally by: Stitcher Originally by: Sapphrine not true. Prove it. So she's mandated to hold office to full term and isn't allowed to stand down? Its a democracy not enforced lead. No democracy has ever forced a premier to hold office to term
Stitcher Duty.	Posted - 2008.06.07 15:55:00 - [154] Edited by: Stitcher on 07/06/2008 16:00:39 The vote of no confidence, you may not have noticed, was in Midular's Government. The government is more than just one person. In this case, the vote was against Midular and her party. In other words, it was not only necessary for Midular to step down, but it was also necessary for her government - her party - to be removed from the majority position as well. Retiring the entire party would have effectively been a dissolution of governmnet, with the added dilemma that it really would have thrown a spanner in the works of the government system. Besides, you didn't actually make any attempt to address the point I was challenging you on. You claimed that it is [sic.] "Not true that he only way for the prime minister to call for premature re-elections is to dissolve parliament." What you tried to use as your "proof" was to point out that it's possible for the Prime Minister to retire. Those are two very different things. In other words, you just very clumsily dodged an inconvenient flaw in your argument. Either that or you are deeply ignorant about the process of your own people's government So again I say: Prove it. PROVE that there is another way for the government to call for a premature general election without dissolving itself. - Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 16:03:00 - [155] Edited by: Evanda Char on 07/06/2008 16:03:35 Originally by: Sapphrine well it appears that Davlos is both incapable of fighting for either honour or come to chat, whichever he was planning to do. I just came to have a chat in Gulfonodi and as soon as offer a place and a location he just seemed to dissapear.... funny that. No fighting spirit, nor even the manners to respond to an offer to talk in person. He's been on shift 16 hours. He can kill you tomorrow. Either that or he got the impression you didn't have anything worthwhile to say. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 16:15:00 - [156] Or perhaps he is... what is that word you Electus Matari like to throw around... a coward. I think after such a bold and public threat he could at least have undocked under Concord protection, let alone gone to meet Sapphrine a mere two jumps away to discuss his grievance. Given the loss of face at stake I would have thought a few minutes wouldn't have been so much to spare. EMpty cans rattle the loudest. How about we see if that sabre you have been rattling all night has a blade attached? Electus Matari are so keen to talk about killing our pilots or waging civil war. Personally if I was in your position I'd stop yakking right about now and hope everyone forgot this shameful display.
Stitcher Duty.	Posted - 2008.06.07 16:21:00 - [157] Typical Ushra'Khan impatience. Things don't go your way instantly, so you howl and tantrum and stamp your feet. Grow up, the entire squabbling pack of you. - Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 16:37:00 - [158] Originally by: Stitcher Edited by: Stitcher on 07/06/2008 16:00:39 <stuff> PROVE that there is another way for the government to call for a premature general election without dissolving itself. Yes, if you read about democracy's, you no confidence governments not the premiers. What it usually means is that the government in its current form is not deemed to have the confidence of the people. Midular is a major part of that and her removal may well be acceptable to most as a change. My claim was that Midular had more than one option of how to respond. If you choose to interpret a vote of no confidence in the ruling party as requiring that the entire party stand down i can see why you might say it was the only option. I'd say that Midular had the option of a quick fix that would have left someone at the helm of the republic now during a very strained time in galactic relations and has instead chosen the only option that leaves no one able to lead effectively for at least two months. My argument was not flawed, i just started from a different set of starting assumptions and lets face it, we're all making some assumptions as we don't have all the facts at hand. before we do another round of prove it, if the intention is to hold a general election as soon as possible then there is no other way i can see barring dissolving parliament, based on what we know. If however the intention is to instigate a change as fast as possible then there are a number of options, many of which allow a leader to be back in control far faster and which allow for far less turmoil. QED.
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 16:38:00 - [159] Originally by: Stitcher Typical Ushra'Khan impatience. Things don't go your way instantly, so you howl and tantrum and stamp your feet. Grow up, the entire squabbling pack of you. I have to assume from the entirely vague nature of that insult you just felt like wagging your lips a bit? Or do you actually have a grievance you'd like to state?
Drauqhk Shathet Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 16:41:00 - [160] Originally by: Stitcher Edited by: Stitcher on 07/06/2008 16:00:39 The vote of no confidence, you may not have noticed, was in Midular's Government. The government is more than just one person. In this case, the vote was against Midular and her party. In other words, it was not only necessary for Midular to step down, but it was also necessary for her government - her party - to be removed from the majority position as well. Retiring the entire party would have effectively been a dissolution of governmnet, with the added dilemma that it really would have thrown a spanner in the works of the government system. Actually, from the news report we hear this: "Although largely symbolic, the end tally showed overwhelming support for the no-confidence measure..." What this tells us is that her own party voted against her. And you are correct that it is not just Prime Minister Midular they voted against, but all of her appointed ministers and cabinet members, but that is hardly the whole of the Sebiestor tribe or even the whole of Sebiestors in parliament. The alternative choice to dissolving parliament as a whole would be that she would simply resign and allow the remaining members of parliament (including her own majority, who voted against her) to select a new Prime Minister as they did when first elected. That new Prime Minister could then choose to retain or replace such cabinet members as was deemed necessary and all in all a smoother transition would have been accomplished in my opinion. As it is, Karin Midular had a choice before her and she decided that the best course was to let the Minmatar people decide as soon as possible who should represent them and lead them in government. That was her decision, but the fact still stands that she had a choice. We can debate the merits of her decision, but we cannot debate that no other choice was available. Do what you can, with what you have, where you are
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 16:42:00 - [161] Originally by: Telemicus Thrace Or perhaps he is... what is that word you Electus Matari like to throw around... a coward. I think after such a bold and public threat he could at least have undocked under Concord protection, let alone gone to meet Sapphrine a mere two jumps away to discuss his grievance. Given the loss of face at stake I would have thought a few minutes wouldn't have been so much to spare. EMpty cans rattle the loudest. How about we see if that sabre you have been rattling all night has a blade attached? Electus Matari are so keen to talk about killing our pilots or waging civil war. Personally if I was in your position I'd stop yakking right about now and hope everyone forgot this shameful display. Read back through your own posts, Mr Thrace. Read through those of your alliancemates. Then accuse us of rattling sabres. And as I said, I honestly think it likely that he has Sapphrine blocked. Everyone else does. After all, if Dav's a coward, he'll still be a coward tomorrow, right? Or should I accuse every single one of you who docks to sleep of cowardice, regardless of when you come back and what you do? Anyway, to Karn, if you want to talk, you know where I am. You don't have to though; this is just another round of smacktalk. It's water off a duck's back to us by now. And to anyone outside all this who's reading, I suggest you go to the sources and read for yourselves, and look up any terms you might not know. Not everything that members of U'K are saying here is true, well-informed or without liberal reinterpretation. Those who have fought with us or against us know the truth, and those who go through life with their own eyes open will know the whole of it. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 17:06:00 - [162] Its funny you know evanda, i can even get comms with the likes of CVA, PIE, AM, VV and keep largely civil tones yet something about apologist midulites just rubs me the wrong way when they try to claim to be loyalists without the actions or even the words to back it. I do hope your diplomats don't go blocking other diplomats because of personal and petty slights quite as easily... would leave you very isolated i imagine.
Tablaren Kingdom of Kador Kingdom of Redemption	Posted - 2008.06.07 17:07:00 - [163] Originally by: Sapphrine Yes I've seen your efforts out and about, a ship here a ship there. Sometimes flying around a large formation in a parade formation yet some how getting nothing done or catching any slavers as they simply evade your slow lumbering task force. Funny thing was, after our last two week clandestine operation into the heart of amarrian space, amarr it self we noted a distinct movement of the slavers into Minmatar space as they fled our wrath favouring their chances on yours.... they didn't seem to come back... while we were there. Just to clarify, I have alot more respect for the fighters of PIE and VV at this point than I do for EM. VV and PIE fought tooth and nail and whilst I do not agree with their religious beliefs and their insistence on supporting slavery, I can respect their fighting spirit. And please don't make yourself look daft quoting figures publicly like you've done in the past, you only embarass your alliance showing the minimal impact you've had on the fight to date whilst simply staying within the republic, drinking tea and eating biscuits. You my friend are an idiot and a disgrace to calderi everywhere. The "Slavers" who left amarr space to go into matari space first of all were not slavers, were not engaging matari, nor commiting offensive actions against republic loyalists. If you don't mean us then who do you mean, because from what you said as well, PIE and VV fought you "touth and nail" so it obviously wasn't them, wasn't deli because they are in mandate, and I didn't see any other amarr groups operating out of republic space so unless you consider the occasional movements that are made from time to time into republic space to fight EM by those groups I don't see what you can mean. Also to be quite frank, if you were able to "watch them go to matari space" then what exactly were you doing, playing with yourself while u were cloaked so you could watch them fight someone else? Your "infinite wrath and fighting spirit" apparently weren't enough to stop this group whoever they were from "taking their chances with EM" Who I might add have shown more tenacity then one might expect from a group that spends their time enjoying tea and biscuits as you say. So why exactly did you allow an amarr organization to move into matari space and do what they wished unopposed? I thought you came for all ur people, does that mean only the ones in amarr space and not the ones in the republic? We come for our people you say. You apparently only think about the ones in amarr servitude as you let a group of "slavers" run about unopposed in republic space and run from any real engagements even when you have men on the field who are being propulsion jammed. I guess you didn't come for them either. You also don't really seem to care about matari who are enslaved by the Angel cartel as you are living side-by-side with them. What do you call someone who runs around killing people while "rescueing" others while not really bothering to do anything to rescue people? That's right, a murderer. The only thing you beasts know is violence and I personally am disgraced to see another person born of the state behave in such a disgusting manner. Now if you may, I'm late for tea with my lovely wife. I hope that being a calderi you might be capable of considering your actions and coming to the light. nods
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 18:18:00 - [164] Edited by: Sapphrine on 07/06/2008 18:20:10 Tablaren, glad you guys could make it to the thread. I was indeed referring to PIE and VV pilots who were definitely sighted in increasing numbers around the Rens area during the latter week of our campaign. Kador sadly didn't seem to have as many forces in the area as we'd been lead to believe but i'm sure we can find you in the future now. As for letting them roam around Minmatar space and the rest of what you said, funnily enough we followed them and did engage them where we could. Its also this following and watching action which showed us the inaction of EM. It speaks volumes when a slaver organisation comes to EM's support... and they call us like amarrians :) edit: I forgot to mention, see page two for my response to being a disgrace to caldari. Do enjoy your tea and biscuits, perhaps you could invite evanda over at some point, i think you'd get on well :)
Major Death Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.07 19:01:00 - [165] Edited by: Major Death on 07/06/2008 19:02:22 Edited by: Major Death on 07/06/2008 19:02:01 Quote: Then accuse us of rattling sabres. Your sabres are rusted in the scabbard from lack of use. I don't think you could even rattle them at this stage. Quote: The only thing you beasts know is violence and I personally am disgraced to see another person born of the state behave in such a disgusting manner. Here's another to add to your disgust slaver stooge. Feel worse now? My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!'
Stitcher Duty.	Posted - 2008.06.07 19:03:00 - [166] Originally by: Sapphrine Yes, if you read about democracy's, you no confidence governments not the premiers. What it usually means is that the government in its current form is not deemed to have the confidence of the people. Midular is a major part of that and her removal may well be acceptable to most as a change. My claim was that Midular had more than one option of how to respond. If you choose to interpret a vote of no confidence in the ruling party as requiring that the entire party stand down i can see why you might say it was the only option. I'd say that Midular had the option of a quick fix that would have left someone at the helm of the republic now during a very strained time in galactic relations and has instead chosen the only option that leaves no one able to lead effectively for at least two months. My argument was not flawed, i just started from a different set of starting assumptions and lets face it, we're all making some assumptions as we don't have all the facts at hand. before we do another round of prove it, if the intention is to hold a general election as soon as possible then there is no other way i can see barring dissolving parliament, based on what we know. If however the intention is to instigate a change as fast as possible then there are a number of options, many of which allow a leader to be back in control far faster and which allow for far less turmoil. Reasonable, but I'd still appreciate hearing what the specifics of these alternatives are. Thus far, you've just claimed that they exist, which is not the same thing as proving that they exist. You've not even listed hypothetical courses of action, just slapped down this blanket claim that there are "a number of options" without providing supporting evidence. Meanwile, I have a lot of other people telling me that this dissolution is the fastest, smoothest and most efficient way to resolve the crisis in the minimum time-frame. Which means that it's their word versus yours and you'll notice, based on my outburst, that I don't exactly respect the Ushra'Khan. Originally by: Sapphrine I have to assume from the entirely vague nature of that insult you just felt like wagging your lips a bit? Or do you actually have a grievance you'd like to state? Hardly "vague" was it? I accused your organization of impatience. Specifically, it is my opinion that the U'K are a spoilt brat in the political playground, constantly making unreasonable demands and then throwing a temper tantrum every time said demands are not instantly met. You want instant results, and don't care if the instant results are far worse than the long-term results. If you can't have your way now then you aren't happy, and your response every time is to challenge people, to insult them, and to lash out violently against your scapegoat de jour, which has variously included nearly every other organization in New Eden at some point or another. Never once in the entire time that I've been watching your alliance has it gone with the measured, conservative, sensible response. It's always "freedom" this and "slavers" that and "traitors" the other. "We come for our people", "1 ISK for Midular", accusing anyone who doesn't agree with you of cowardice or complicity... It's all buzzwords, insults, cat-calling and smack-talk with you people. There's no middle-ground in your philosophy, which means that the Good in the U'K's mission statement - the abolishment of slavery - is lost in the glare from your burning bridges. Your brashness is self-destructive, your stubbornness infuriating, and your callousness counter-productive. Your entire organization, in my opinion, is guilty of being immensely childish, short-sighted and arrogant. That is my grievance. - Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Tablaren Kingdom of Kador Kingdom of Redemption	Posted - 2008.06.07 19:10:00 - [167] That was a delightful cup, now to get back to the business as I travel back to our operating bases. nods You have an interesting definition of a "slaver" None of the members of our organization take slaves nor is it legal too, we are simply followers of the true faith and a group that believes in the vision of our Lord-Heir and the blessed Coelestis. I was not, and have not come to EMs support. The fact that I occasionally hunt pirates in metropolis and consider a group who doesn't bomb civilians and kill miners more highly then you does not make me an ally as we have no relations. Now, I wonder why you avoided the topic of "your people" You keep going on and on about how you are here to save your people. Then you live and work beside the Angel Cartel in their stations despite their enslaving more matari each year then all groups of amarrian criminals and illegal slavers combined. I suppose being a fork-tongued vagrant and criminal is all you will ever amount too.
Kudon Astraisx 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.07 19:43:00 - [168] Being a member of Electus Matari and a supporter of the Minmatar Republic does not make me a "Midulite". Like any other Republic citizen, I exercise my rights via voting and freedom of expression, but I do not violate the laws of my nation in order to save it. And anyone who thinks EM doesn't fight is misinformed. --
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.08 00:20:00 - [169] Originally by: Tablaren You keep going on and on about how you are here to save your people. Then you live and work beside the Angel Cartel in their stations despite their enslaving more matari each year then all groups of amarrian criminals and illegal slavers combined. We do not work with the Cartel, check my records you'll see I have slain many of their ships. More slaver lies. I thought you had gone for good you have been hiding so long, the war has been over for weeks. It is safe to come out, for now. Kingdom of Redemption are well known to us as active supporters of the Amarr Empire. Our scouts had been watching your activities for quite some time before we declared war on you. The Cartel enslaves more Matari than the Amarr Empire?, you cannot be serious. That is beyond laughable. There is slaver propaganda and there is nonsense, you just crossed the border into utter tripe.
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.08 05:32:00 - [170] Originally by: Davlos Edited by: Davlos on 06/06/2008 12:28:52 How can anyone say that Shakor presently controls Parliament despite not being an elected head of state, and anyone say for certain that if Shakor does get elected, he'd remain in control? How can any head of state govern with relentless warmongering rhetoric and do nothing for his or her people? This is a warmonger we're talking about. Someone who may receive at least 80% approval ratings during his first 100 days, and then have it plummet at first sight of publicised defeat during some small, unimportant skirmish, raid, or battle. War costs lives. We didn't expend all of this work against slavers, organization of rehab and leading freed slaves to a new, free life to throw them into the all-devouring jaws of war. Don't be spouting nonsense about 'stronger leader' and 'stronger this and that pish posh' any longer. It makes me want to choke a baby with a bloody ball gag. Organizations such as Electus Matari serve no other purpose than to destroy reverence to our past and to add fear to a future where the tribes embrace our culture. All the while lurking in the dark ready to embrace political power and favoritism through hollow action. You talk about primal desires as if you walked among the people you want to cure. You talk as if you had your hand on the pulse of the people. In the very same breath you bastardize a Minmatar leader who pays reverence to those who were tortured and experimented on during our darkest hours. I would cut your tongue out Davlos if it wasn't surely to grow back like the reptile you are. Don't even begin to think you have a pulse on what drives a true child of Matar. You have nothing more than statistics gathered from the weakening of our people through words such as peace and ideas such as tolerance. Shakor is exactly what the Minmatar people need right now. An individual that has been tempered and peered into the enemy's eye in his own courts as well on the field of battle. He has seen the black soul of the Amarrian Empire. It deserves nothing more than to die and allow the Amarr people to embrace freedom. Peace has always come with the price of blood. Stop your complaints as they reek of notions of lost profit margins and the slipping of leashes. Read the news feeds, take in the atmosphere of the Fleet captains and walk in the corridors of our stations. If you don't have the stomach of war then you have sympathized with the wrong people and that will be your folly. Team Minmatar
zoolkhan Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.08 07:31:00 - [171] Edited by: zoolkhan on 08/06/2008 07:35:43 Originally by: Karn Mithralia And by doing so you and all of EM will become KOS to Ushra'Khan. let those two have their private disput imo sapphrine doesnt require alliance wide backup, he is a skilled pilot. answering a forum insult with death treats is admitting of defeat in my books. I find it disturbing where this is heading between two alliances fighting for the same side with only different methods. both sides shoudl pull back their ******* egos on a titanium leash. nothing is gained with a mudfight in here. nothing but yet another omnidirectional loss of respect... I know for a fact that the EM pilots do have a fighting base. They just fight other enemies for other reasons. Dont be arrogant, never be arrogant .. it does not suit any of you recruiting -forum
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.08 08:48:00 - [172] Edited by: Karn Mithralia on 08/06/2008 08:55:16 With respect Zool, you have the wrong end of the stick. I do not see Davlos demanding a duel of Sapphrine. If he did, that is for Sapp to answer to as he sees fit. Do you seriously think I of all people would step in between Davlos and Sapphrine, or set Electus Matari KOS as a result of a duel? Davlos clearly stated he would shoot Sapphrine on sight if he saw him in space. That does not constitute a duel under any tradition I know of and anyone firing on Ushra'Khan pilots (outside of an engagemnet of honor) gets themselves, their corp and their alliance if applicable set red, as per our standard ROE. -----------------------------------------
zoolkhan Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.08 10:21:00 - [173] Edited by: zoolkhan on 08/06/2008 10:25:46 Quote: With respect Zool, I think you have the wrong end of the stick. I do not see Davlos demanding a duel of Sapphrine. Davlos clearly stated he would shoot Sapphrine on sight if he saw him in space. That does not constitute a duel under any tradition I know of and anyone firing on Ushra'Khan pilots (outside of an engagement of honor) gets themselves, their corp and their alliance if applicable, set red, as per our standard ROE. yes but it was clear to me that there is a minion speaking I cannot believe that their leadership is 100% happy with his statements. So, would you really mercilessly apply your standard ROE because some peeon does something stupid? Or would you rather contact EM-Leadership and have them deal with it? And if necessary focus fire on that worumwarrior? Certainly you agree with me that there are worthier targets out there. Anyways, you all better have a smoke and a cold can of jovian chill, my bar is always open. recruiting -forum
Sapphrine Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.08 10:37:00 - [174] I agree zools to an extent. I went to speak with Davlos in space directly to see what could be said about the matter however all indications to date imply that he would fire on me. I can't say for sure that he would but if he does then he has been forewarned of the consequences. In the absence of an EM official response to back him that doesn't just say he can kill me tomorrow, i will continue to hope he wont but will remain wary.
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.08 11:47:00 - [175] Zool the reason we apply our ROE regardless is because it keeps things clear cut and simple, this is a war machine I lead, not a knitting group. I thought it fair to warn Electus Matari of the potential repurcussions of Davlos acting on his words, and while doing so let the community at large know where Ushra'Khan stands on such matters. Davlos either speaks for Electus Matari and will act with their blessing, or he doesn't and will leave them with a diplomatic mess to sort out should he open fire. My door will remain open either way. Karn grins. I am entirely chilled brother. -----------------------------------------
Kudon Astraisx 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.08 12:26:00 - [176] While I do not speak for EM, I sit on the council and am familiar with our ROE. EM pilots are ordered not to fire upon U'K pilots. In fact, we are ordered to assist where viable and appropriate if we observe U'K in combat inside the Republic. Should Davlos fire upon a U'K pilot, he will be violating alliance policy. While I regard the bounty upon Midular's head as treason, I am confident that our true enemies are held in common. --
zoolkhan Mirkur Draug'Tyr	Posted - 2008.06.08 13:05:00 - [177] Originally by: Karn Mithralia I am entirely chilled brother. perhaps i ment the other guy then :) I can drink my stuff alone if you insist, but that would mean bad business for the bar and seliah would get a cut in her lousy salary. recruiting -forum
Karn Mithralia Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.08 14:18:00 - [178] Kudon - thank you for that confirmation, it's reciprocated. Zool - I'm there bro. -----------------------------------------
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.08 14:37:00 - [179] What I'm hearing is a lot of white-washing from EM and a lot of ignorant bombast from U'K. My how little has changed around here... Eva and Arkady, while you can pretend that Midular dissolved Parliament in good faith, the fact that she expelled Shakor (which she arguable does not have the authority to do) suggests otherwise. If this were simply a move that recognized the concerns of Parliament and complying with expectations, she would not have been so confrontational about it. And if this were something that came as a standard part of a vote of no confidence, why is the opposition so angry about it? Why is their rioting in the streets? Wouldn't they want these elections? Dissolving parliament may have been the correct course of action, but as usually, her execution of it was artless and inflammatory. I think they have cause to be worried when she effectively becomes the only force in government for two months. She can't pass any new laws, but she still controls all of the existing government aparatus and has the ability to enforce existing laws which can be used to effectively hand the election back to her. The Minmatar have made using seemingly innocuous laws to disenfranchise opposition parties into an art form since the Republic's founding. Managing to unseat an entrenched government has often required an incredible force of will and often the bringing to bear of more force than the government is willing to brush aside. To U'K as a whole, you have criticized Prime Minister Midular for years unceasingly, and now you've effectively been handed what you wanted and you're still not happy. If she had stepped down and appointed a successor to lead, you would be howling that it was a change of face without a change of course. You've got the chance for elections to put a favorable party in power. If only you hadn't spent the last few years extracting yourself from the political process, you might have actually had an opportunity help ensure she doesn't steal this election. Now it will be only Electus Matari that will be involved in the process, and we know how that is going to go. More likely though, the Minmatar electoral process will be better off without your presence however deeply flawed it may be. ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.08 14:49:00 - [180] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 08/06/2008 14:51:12 Originally by: Shira d'Radonis Eva and Arkady, while you can pretend that Midular dissolved Parliament in good faith, the fact that she expelled Shakor (which she arguable does not have the authority to do) suggests otherwise. If this were simply a move that recognized the concerns of Parliament and complying with expectations, she would not have been so confrontational about it. Do you know why she "expelled" Shakor? Do you know even wheter she expelled Shakor? The news report says there are reports - nothing is certain. And if she did - she does have the authority to do so if Shakor commited crimes. Do you know whether there were any? No. Did Midular have the chance to actually explain herself on that session? No, she had to be escorted out of Parliament because of unruly members of parliament. Now it's weekend, and parliament work is resting. There are two options for us - for us capsuleers as well for the people on the streets: Either, you jump to conclusions - for example, Midular had full rights to expel Shakor, because he did something criminal! Or maybe, Midular had no rights to expel him, because he didn't do anything! Maybe also, Midular wants to seize power, and is just faking the call for re-elections! Or you can say: We don't know. There's barely anything in the reports that says what actually happened. We'll have to wait until we get further information, before we can react to that. Note that neither approach lends itself to actually affecting anything. We can't do anything in either case. Posting enraged on IGS about how the conclusions you jumped to are The Truth ("believe me, I must know!") is just marginally more useful than going to the streets and protesting against (no idea what against, but let's protest). I'll wait until I know further details, and let legal government processes work. Until then, Shira - jump.
Evanda Char Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.08 14:56:00 - [181] Originally by: Shira d'Radonis Now it will be only Electus Matari that will be involved in the process, and we know how that is going to go. More likely though, the Minmatar electoral process will be better off without your presence however deeply flawed it may be. Actually, I'd say that about of half of EM doesn't support Midular. Myself, I don't support anyone as such, I just dispute the allegations that Midular is either Ammatar or traitor. Much was achieved against great odds, she just didn't scream "death to the Amarr" before all of it. Blunt force trauma makes for a good general. It doesn't make for a good system of government. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.08 18:30:00 - [182] Originally by: Evanda Char Blunt force trauma makes for a good general. It doesn't make for a good system of government. It has worked well for the Amarr for so many years. Team Minmatar
Gamblor Matar Slag Industries	Posted - 2008.06.08 19:40:00 - [183] The Brutor know what is best for the Minmatar people. We know the time for talking is over. Good riddance to the Ammatar appeaser Midular.
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.08 22:06:00 - [184] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Do you know why she "expelled" Shakor? Do you know even wheter she expelled Shakor? The news report says there are reports - nothing is certain. And if she did - she does have the authority to do so if Shakor commited crimes. Do you know whether there were any? No. Did Midular have the chance to actually explain herself on that session? No, she had to be escorted out of Parliament because of unruly members of parliament. Now it's weekend, and parliament work is resting. There are two options for us - for us capsuleers as well for the people on the streets: Either, you jump to conclusions - for example, Midular had full rights to expel Shakor, because he did something criminal! Or maybe, Midular had no rights to expel him, because he didn't do anything! Maybe also, Midular wants to seize power, and is just faking the call for re-elections! Or you can say: We don't know. There's barely anything in the reports that says what actually happened. We'll have to wait until we get further information, before we can react to that. Note that neither approach lends itself to actually affecting anything. We can't do anything in either case. Posting enraged on IGS about how the conclusions you jumped to are The Truth ("believe me, I must know!") is just marginally more useful than going to the streets and protesting against (no idea what against, but let's protest). I'll wait until I know further details, and let legal government processes work. Until then, Shira - jump. Alright. Let's give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she does have the authority to expel Shakor. I think it seems fairly clear that she did expell him because it's been a few days now and we've yet to hear a denial from the government on this. Not only that, but Shakor was being escorted out of the session. The point is: Can you really frame her actions as being an attempt to defuse the confrontation rather than ratchet up the intensity? Would a person who is simply following the natural course of the law take such provocative action rather than let things cool down a little bit first? This is Midular sending a message. Unfortunately, it will likely have the opposite effect from what she intends. Rather then frighten the opposition back into line, this can only serve to provoke them further (as we have seen from people's response here). I'm certainly not going to argue that the hardliners have either the intellectual or moral high ground. I fully recognize that they are the problem. But if her handling of the situation only emboldens them, then she has become the problem. ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Vladimir Titov Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:46:00 - [185] It seems Midular has disappeared! http://myeve.eve-online.com/mb/news.asp?nid=2090 At this stage I would not be surprised if she surfaced in Ammatar or Amarrian space. After all, she is no longer of any use to her handlers in her current position.
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:57:00 - [186] Edited by: Shira d''Radonis on 09/06/2008 22:00:14 I would like to state for the record that I welcome the new government! Huzzah! ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis
Redbad TSL Wolfpack	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:08:00 - [187] Originally by: Shira d'Radonis Edited by: Shira d''Radonis on 09/06/2008 22:00:14 I would like to state for the record that I welcome the new government! Huzzah! I dont think Vladimir Titov meant that Midular will be your new Emperor.
Nachshon Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:35:00 - [188] The political situation is very tense right now. We are on the verge of exploding. I will be sleeping in my pod tonight. I suggest that all of you do the same. ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom My v
Shira d'Radonis The Amarr Mission	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:46:00 - [189] Originally by: Redbad I dont think Vladimir Titov meant that Midular will be your new Emperor. I live in the Republic. I'm persona non grata in the Empire (at least for now). I was welcoming the new Republic government. ----------------------------------------------- ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö "Our histories, one day, will absolve me..." - Shira d'Radonis

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