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How to counter falcons and rooks.

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Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.15 07:58:00 - [91] Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, lets take this another tack. Lyria, just how effective would an ECCM have to be in order to make you happy? 200%? 300%? 500%? Guaranteed no matter what? -Liang I think Lyria's posts make it pretty clear that it's "Guaranteed no matter what?". Ridiculous, of course, but no more ridiculous than "I want to be able to counter a whole class without changing my tactics or ships or fits in any way". She just want to be able to fit 1 midslot mod and pretend that there's no such thing as ECM. If she ever got her wish, then there'd be about a 20-minute silence, then the "omg damps are ruining 5-man cruiser gangs NERF NOAW PLX!" threads would start. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 09:59:00 - [92] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 09:59:34 Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, lets take this another tack. Lyria, just how effective would an ECCM have to be in order to make you happy? 200%? 300%? 500%? Guaranteed no matter what? -Liang Ok how about this. I want 1xECCM on a ship be as neutralizing to ECM as 1xSB is to a Damp. You can't possibly claim this to be true for cruisers and frigs that are fitting eccm, heck I dont even know if its close to true for BS.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 10:16:00 - [93] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 10:16:51 Originally by: Etho Demerzel You, on the other hand, sir, have only childish whinings. But where is the love? Oh I may not bother to back up every single truth with numbers because I actually pvp in this game unlike some.
Zephyr Rengate Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.06.15 11:08:00 - [94] How do I counter a rapier or a huggin in a blaster boat btw? Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I habe no life.
Ulcious	Posted - 2008.06.15 12:23:00 - [95] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate How do I counter a rapier or a huggin in a blaster boat btw? :D ^^ this Or how do i counter a curse in my blasterthron? Or how do i counter an araz... oh wait.. they suck...
Leviathan9 Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.15 12:55:00 - [96] I found during a fleet fight 2 Stealth Bombers's would do nicely. Falcon pilot will unlikely notice them till they already fired off 2 salvo's which would be enough to pop the thing. ----------------------------
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:45:00 - [97] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ok how about this. I want 1xECCM on a ship be as neutralizing to ECM as 1xSB is to a Damp. You can't possibly claim this to be true for cruisers and frigs that are fitting eccm, heck I dont even know if its close to true for BS. So you effectively want to remove ewar from the game entirely. There's a reason nobody flies damp boats these days... and that's because damps aren't even worth it if the person isn't fitting the counter. It'd be like adjusting racial ECM to have a base strength of 1.5-2. Sorry Lyria, but the game needs effective ewar - and it needs more of it. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:02:00 - [98] Originally by: Leviathan9 I found during a fleet fight 2 Stealth Bombers's would do nicely. Falcon pilot will unlikely notice them till they already fired off 2 salvo's which would be enough to pop the thing. yeah but stealth bombers are smaller than Falcons, so they don't count. Only tier-2 cruiser hull based counters are acceptable. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:12:00 - [99] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 09:59:34 Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, lets take this another tack. Lyria, just how effective would an ECCM have to be in order to make you happy? 200%? 300%? 500%? Guaranteed no matter what? -Liang Ok how about this. I want 1xECCM on a ship be as neutralizing to ECM as 1xSB is to a Damp. You can't possibly claim this to be true for cruisers and frigs that are fitting eccm, heck I dont even know if its close to true for BS. A sensor booster with a scan res script has zero effect on a range-scripted damp, and vice versa. So there's a ~2/9 chance that the sensor booster won't affect the damp at all, a 3/9 chance that it'll completely negate it, a 2/9 chance that it'll partially negate the intended effect of the damp. Contrariwise, an ECCM always has the intended effect of reducing the chance of a successful jam. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:20:00 - [100] Originally by: Ulcious Originally by: Zephyr Rengate How do I counter a rapier or a huggin in a blaster boat btw? :D ^^ this Or how do i counter a curse in my blasterthron? Or how do i counter an araz... oh wait.. they suck... How about cap injection? You know a cap injected zealot can *****the typical curse. Yeah, true story. But you wouldnt know this because you dont pvp.

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:22:00 - [101] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate How do I counter a rapier or a huggin in a blaster boat btw? Ok lets remove everything that counters TDs and Neuts aswell. Remove cap boosters and TEs/TCs.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:23:00 - [102] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 16:24:09 Originally by: Liang Nuren So you effectively want to remove ewar from the game entirely. There's a reason nobody flies damp boats these days... and that's because damps aren't even worth it if the person isn't fitting the counter. It'd be like adjusting racial ECM to have a base strength of 1.5-2. Sorry Lyria, but the game needs effective ewar - and it needs more of it. -Liang No you purposly are trying to misunderstand me. I want a counter that is f!ttable (ccps crap filter makes me type with a ! instead of an i) that works on something else then a battleship. If you fit a SB or TC on a cruiser or frig it can counter the EW just as well as when it is fit on a BS.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:25:00 - [103] Originally by: Leviathan9 I found during a fleet fight 2 Stealth Bombers's would do nicely. Falcon pilot will unlikely notice them till they already fired off 2 salvo's which would be enough to pop the thing. Yes but in fleet fights and bigger fights falcons arent really a big problem at all. We are talking about how its killing small gang warfare and making it boring.
Jadiin Mindstar Technology The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:30:00 - [104] Get 50 people in Ibis's. No way a falcon can jam them all.....................
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:39:00 - [105] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer How about cap injection? You know a cap injected zealot can ****the typical curse. Yeah, true story. But you wouldnt know this because you dont pvp. Oh wait, I thought that TD's were oooooh so overpowered but only towards Amarr and it's so unfair that Amarr should be affected by TD's? Now that Matari ships are rendered entirely* useless by a single unbonused TD, you're saying that the Amarr ships aren't even affected by bonused TD's? Wow. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:40:00 - [106] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 16:24:09 Originally by: Liang Nuren So you effectively want to remove ewar from the game entirely. There's a reason nobody flies damp boats these days... and that's because damps aren't even worth it if the person isn't fitting the counter. It'd be like adjusting racial ECM to have a base strength of 1.5-2. Sorry Lyria, but the game needs effective ewar - and it needs more of it. -Liang No you purposly are trying to misunderstand me. I want a counter that is f!ttable (ccps crap filter makes me type with a ! instead of an i) that works on something else then a battleship. If you fit a SB or TC on a cruiser or frig it can counter the EW just as well as when it is fit on a BS. Are sensor boosters commonly fitted on frigates? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:40:00 - [107] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ok lets remove everything that counters TDs and Neuts aswell. Remove cap boosters and TEs/TCs. On a seriousness scale of 1-10, I have the feeling you're actually at 11. How serious do you think you're being? -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:53:00 - [108] Originally by: Malcanis Are sensor boosters commonly fitted on frigates? On some interceptors yes.
Raniss	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:54:00 - [109] Ok liang and other forum vips () i have a serious question for you. What if we made ecm become less powerfull if you stick more than 1 ecm on a target? So lets say, every extra ecm you put on a target gets a stacking penalty? Would that bring ecm more in line? Or how about the (somewhere else) proposed ecm scripts? Something like long range/less ecm-strength and short range/high ecm-strength scripts?
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:55:00 - [110] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer How about cap injection? You know a cap injected zealot can ****the typical curse. Yeah, true story. But you wouldnt know this because you dont pvp. Oh wait, I thought that TD's were oooooh so overpowered but only towards Amarr and it's so unfair that Amarr should be affected by TD's? Now that Matari ships are rendered entirely* useless by a single unbonused TD, you're saying that the Amarr ships aren't even affected by bonused TD's? Wow. -Liang What does all that have to do with how bad ECCM counters ECM on anything smaller then a BS? Please explain that to me.

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:56:00 - [111] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 16:57:45 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ok lets remove everything that counters TDs and Neuts aswell. Remove cap boosters and TEs/TCs. On a seriousness scale of 1-10, I have the feeling you're actually at 11. How serious do you think you're being? -Liang A stupid post gets a stupid answer. I just continued the train of thought he started.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:57:00 - [112] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No you purposly are trying to misunderstand me. I want a counter that is f!ttable (ccps crap filter makes me type with a ! instead of an i) that works on something else then a battleship. If you fit a SB or TC on a cruiser or frig it can counter the EW just as well as when it is fit on a BS. Sensor Strength by Class: Covetor: 8 Hulk: 8 Merlin: 11 Cormorant: 12 Flycatcher: 12 --- Good Skilled Rook Jamming Strength --- Badger II: 13 Raptor: 14 Golem: 14 --- Max Skilled Rook Jamming Strength --- Harpy: 15 Moa: 16 Cerberus: 16 Onyx: 16 Crane: 17 --- Battleships Begin Here --- Armageddon: 17 Typhoon: 18 Tempest: 19 Drake: 19 Apoc: 20 Manticore: 20 Maelstrom: 21 Megathron: 21 Abaddon: 22 Domi: 22 Raven: 22 Basilisk: 22 Hyperion: 23 Buzzard: 24 Kitsune: 24 Rokh: 24 Scorpion: 24 Widow: 24 --- Battleships End Here --- Rook: 32 Phoenix: 48* Chimera: 80* Rorqual: 115 Wyvern: 1000* Leviathan: 1000* * Can be or is immune to ewar I'd say that there's plenty of non-battleships with sensor strengths high enough to successfully counter ECM. Stop whining. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:58:00 - [113] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer What does all that have to do with how bad ECCM counters ECM on anything smaller then a BS? Please explain that to me. It has to do with how you twist the truth to present things as "oh poor little me" and "oh big bad you, you need a nerf!" -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:58:00 - [114] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A stupid post gets a stupid answer. I just continued the train of thought he started. Oh, well, it seems to follow right in line with the rest of your posts. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:00:00 - [115] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 17:01:58 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 17:01:07 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 17:00:16 Originally by: Liang Nuren Sensor Strength by Class: Covetor: 8 Hulk: 8 Merlin: 11 Cormorant: 12 Flycatcher: 12 --- Good Skilled Rook Jamming Strength --- Badger II: 13 Raptor: 14 Golem: 14 --- Max Skilled Rook Jamming Strength --- Harpy: 15 Moa: 16 Cerberus: 16 Onyx: 16 Crane: 17 --- Battleships Begin Here --- Armageddon: 17 Typhoon: 18 Tempest: 19 Drake: 19 Apoc: 20 Manticore: 20 Maelstrom: 21 Megathron: 21 Abaddon: 22 Domi: 22 Raven: 22 Basilisk: 22 Hyperion: 23 Buzzard: 24 Kitsune: 24 Rokh: 24 Scorpion: 24 Widow: 24 --- Battleships End Here --- Rook: 32 Phoenix: 48* Chimera: 80* Rorqual: 115 Wyvern: 1000* Leviathan: 1000* * Can be or is immune to ewar I'd say that there's plenty of non-battleships with sensor strengths high enough to successfully counter ECM. Stop whining. -Liang Now multiply the number of ECM modules a rook and a falcon has. And remake the list. There are quite alot of ships on that list for whom it won't make a difference at all if they fit an ECCM or not (also take into consideration that you don't need to perma jam something to effectively remove it from the fight). THAT is the problem.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:02:00 - [116] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer If you fit a SB or TC on a cruiser or frig it can counter the EW just as well as when it is fit on a BS. The SB and TC are false. Smaller ships get (by default) lower targeting ranges and higher scan resolutions. Quite literally, targeting range dampening is more powerful against smaller ships (which don't have the range to play with in general). Similarly, smaller gun sizes have smaller optimal ranges and smaller falloffs. That's why it's so incredibly hard to get frigs to deal any noticeable damage outside of web range. Fitting a TC or a TE does not help the situation nearly as much as it does on a BS. I'd actually argue that fitting an ECCM is more powerful on frigs than fitting a TC/TE. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:03:00 - [117] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Now multiply the number of ECM modules a rook and a falcon has. And remake the list. There are quite alot of ships on that list for whom it won't make a difference at all if they fit an ECCM or not. THAT is the problem. Quite honestly, how many are likely to be able to affect any one of those ships? A standard Falcon's gonna be coming down with probably two Caldari ECMs, and one racial of each other. 1 * 1 = 1. So then we can divide all the Caldari sensor strengths in "half", and see that Caldari actually need a boost. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:06:00 - [118] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer If you fit a SB or TC on a cruiser or frig it can counter the EW just as well as when it is fit on a BS. The SB and TC are false. Smaller ships get (by default) lower targeting ranges and higher scan resolutions. Quite literally, targeting range dampening is more powerful against smaller ships (which don't have the range to play with in general). Similarly, smaller gun sizes have smaller optimal ranges and smaller falloffs. That's why it's so incredibly hard to get frigs to deal any noticeable damage outside of web range. Fitting a TC or a TE does not help the situation nearly as much as it does on a BS. I'd actually argue that fitting an ECCM is more powerful on frigs than fitting a TC/TE. -Liang TD on a frig, damp on a frig: No probs, frig can still get close and still hit and tackle for its gang. 40km webs and neuts: Ok these do kill a frig but they dont have 150km range. These ships can be countered by fairly non specilized ships because they are close to the action. Falcons: Cant be spotted, can't be tackled by fast tacklers. Counters are few ships, blobs or battleships. Meh. How about making ECCM a bit better?
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:08:00 - [119] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer TD on a frig, damp on a frig: No probs, frig can still get close and still hit and tackle for its gang. 40km webs and neuts: Ok these do kill a frig but they dont have 150km range. These ships can be countered by fairly non specilized ships because they are close to the action. Falcons: Cant be spotted, can't be tackled by fast tacklers. Counters are few ships, blobs or battleships. Meh. How about making ECCM a bit better? A partial list of the counters for a rook/falcon have been enumerated in this thread - you simply refuse to listen. You want to use a Condor with 1 ECCM to be 100% immune to ECM... how lame is that? You realize that ECM will be 100% removed from the game if you make ECCM too effective right? Because only one person in your entire gang needs to have it fit. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:14:00 - [120] Even agianst a gang of 1x ECCM battleships, a good Falcon pilot can keep an average of two ships jammed at a time. ECCM is not an effective counter unless you cripple your ship by fitting two or three.



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