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Streikeer	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:00:00 - [1] What's the best way to counter rooks and falcons? heavy eccm? and what ship (interceptor? elect. attack ship?) would be the best platform??
Atsuko Ratu VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:06:00 - [2] Bad falcons + rooks will die to anything nano, with each nano ship going after them increasing the chance of falcon death. Good falcons (and rooks I suppose) are extremely hard to kill. They are easy to counter, but the better pilots will simply warp if anything has a remote chance of killing them. In my opinion, the best way to kill a falcon would get a ECCMed vagabond. Hope he misses the first few cycles of jam and get your buddies to warp in on him. Solo? ECCMed rook with tackle.
Lithalnas Headcrabs	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:08:00 - [3] sniper sensor boosted battleships, lots of them. ------------- fixed for greater eve content
NoNah	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:11:00 - [4] Get some speed on an ishtar, and some eccm or remote eccm and it's a goner. If you can get a good warp-in on him, you can run multiple eccms on the ishtar itself, and even if he does get a jam in, you can normally bump him while the drones pick up the last pieces of hull. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 709435
Yoko Lee	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:11:00 - [5] Arazu to damp the falcon, no range = no lock for falcon. Curse with 2x eccm can target and kill falcon/rook Sniper with some eccm. But difficult to kill a good pilot falcon (i never lose my falcon), bs with 2x eccm not easy to jam, damp can block me, other falcon/rook.
Tai Paktu Mortis Incarnatus	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:11:00 - [6] Arazu - Anti-Falcon 1x Cov-Ops Cloak 3x Dual 150mm Railgun II (Spike M) 1x 10MN MWD II 1x Medium Electrochem Booster (400s) 2x Remote Sensor Damp II or Phased Muon (Targeting Range Damp) 1x Whatever Disruptor you like 1x ECCM II 2x ODI II 2x Nano II Rigs: Whatever, I use e-war rigs Drones: 4x Valk IIs or 3x Valk IIs and 2x Warrior IIs Sensor strength of 50ish, more if you overload the ECCM. With even decent skills you will damp the Falcon to below the range he can point you unless he has a sensor booster. Get to around 45km without being seen, decloak, target, damp, ?, profit. ______ http://eve-files.com/sig/TaiPaktu/sig3.PNG
Stuart Price Black Water.	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:12:00 - [7] 1. BM Falcon's jam location. 2. Get a Pilgrim. 3. Park Pilgrim near that location and wait for Falcon to reappear. 4. ?????? 5. Profit. Failing that, blob it with interceptors, get some 250k range heavy ECCM snipers or just fit a crapton of ECCM. With 2 ECCM fitted to a bs, a Falcons jam chance drops through the floor. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:13:00 - [8] Not much, that's the point and that's why half of eve uses it. In fleets you bring your own falcon/rook, in small gangs you do that too. I mean if you really want to counter EW the best way is to counter it with another falcon/rook. The sad truth.
Tai Paktu Mortis Incarnatus	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:18:00 - [9] Here's another. Eagle - Anti-Support Sniper 5x 200mm Railgun II (Spike) [empty] 2x ECCM - Grav II 2x F-90 Positional Subroutine (Targeting Range) 3 Mag Stab IIs 1x Tracking Enhancer II Rigs 1x Hybrid Collision 1x Ancilliary Current Router When you hit him, he will leave. 158km optimal, 64.7 sensor strength,
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Tai Paktu Here's another. Eagle - Anti-Support Sniper 5x 200mm Railgun II (Spike) [empty] 2x ECCM - Grav II 2x F-90 Positional Subroutine (Targeting Range) 3 Mag Stab IIs 1x Tracking Enhancer II Rigs 1x Hybrid Collision 1x Ancilliary Current Router When you hit him, he will leave. 158km optimal, 64.7 sensor strength, Yes eccm eagle is basically the only good and viable counter except falcons/rooks.

Streikeer	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:27:00 - [11] all good info. what's the best Gallente ship for this purpose? Arazu? Lachesis? Keres?
Atsuko Ratu VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:31:00 - [12] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Not much, that's the point and that's why half of eve uses it. In fleets you bring your own falcon/rook, in small gangs you do that too. I mean if you really want to counter EW the best way is to counter it with another falcon/rook. The sad truth. Or read the useful posts above you.
NoNah	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:40:00 - [13] Originally by: Streikeer all good info. what's the best Gallente ship for this purpose? Arazu? Lachesis? Keres? I'm gonna go ahead and presume you didn't read my post about it. Keres does not have the range nor even firewpower to do it. Arazu and lachesis could in theory, presuming you have sweet skills and manage to get a lock on it, it has no more than one sensor booster and you can do with only three midslots. (IE MWD, injector and point or MWD and point for the arazu). I'd still go with some sort of a hac ishtar probably being the most suited one.
Kebast	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:43:00 - [14] The Red One will usually trump the Rook depending on what game you're playing...
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.12 01:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Not much, that's the point and that's why half of eve uses it. In fleets you bring your own falcon/rook, in small gangs you do that too. I mean if you really want to counter EW the best way is to counter it with another falcon/rook. The sad truth. Or read the useful posts above you. I said not much. Eagle only viable except rook/falcon = not much that can counter a rook/falcon.
Atsuko Ratu VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Not much, that's the point and that's why half of eve uses it. In fleets you bring your own falcon/rook, in small gangs you do that too. I mean if you really want to counter EW the best way is to counter it with another falcon/rook. The sad truth. Or read the useful posts above you. I said not much. Eagle only viable except rook/falcon = not much that can counter a rook/falcon. ECCMed ishtar?
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:17:00 - [17] I've seen the Curse be really quite excellent at killing Falcons/rooks. They miss the first cycle, and they simply don't have the capacitor for the next one. -Liang
Gark32 X Bane X Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.06.12 02:28:00 - [18] well, to counter it i usually use a blackbird with a Gravimetric backup cluster and an ECCM. to kill it (or run it off) i use a scorpion with cruises and a gravimetric cluster and two ECCM. scorpion setup like that has a sensor strength of about 108-112 -- nearly unjammable, and a fine ECM sponge.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:21:00 - [19] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu ECCMed ishtar? What? No that is not effective enough, curse isnt either. You need instant damage on it or instant disabling (ecm). Why? Because falcons tend to have several bookmarks all over the places they operate in. Have you actually tried any of these counters? I just feel everyone is just throwing suggestions here without even knowing how badly they actually work.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Atsuko Ratu ECCMed ishtar? What? No that is not effective enough, curse isnt either. You need instant damage on it or instant disabling (ecm). Why? Because falcons tend to have several bookmarks all over the places they operate in. Have you actually tried any of these counters? I just feel everyone is just throwing suggestions here without even knowing how badly they actually work. It works... especially the Curse. You don't even have to special fit it. -Liang

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:23:00 - [21] Originally by: Liang Nuren I've seen the Curse be really quite excellent at killing Falcons/rooks. They miss the first cycle, and they simply don't have the capacitor for the next one. -Liang First off you need a nano curse. And you need to fit ECCM. Why not just get a sniper ECCM eagle instead? It can do it's normal job just as well and kill off falcons. You want instant damage on the falcon wich basically only a eccm eagle can give.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:25:00 - [22] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Atsuko Ratu ECCMed ishtar? What? No that is not effective enough, curse isnt either. You need instant damage on it or instant disabling (ecm). Why? Because falcons tend to have several bookmarks all over the places they operate in. Have you actually tried any of these counters? I just feel everyone is just throwing suggestions here without even knowing how badly they actually work. It works... especially the Curse. You don't even have to special fit it. -Liang No eccm on curse? You want to fly 150km with it and then hope for it to miss a cycle? Its more likely that he will simply warp to his 150km blow gate point wich is 300km off you by then and you'll fail. I'm sorry but a freaky accident curse killing a noob falcon doesn't count. Curse just doesn't do it good enough. You need instant damage on it to totally disable it's effect on your gang.
Gark32 X Bane X Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:57:00 - [23] Edited by: Gark32 on 12/06/2008 03:58:25 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer What? No that is not effective enough, curse isnt either. You need instant damage on it or instant disabling (ecm). Why? Because falcons tend to have several bookmarks all over the places they operate in. Have you actually tried any of these counters? I just feel everyone is just throwing suggestions here without even knowing how badly they actually work. as far as killing it, i've never seen the scorp's cruises actually land, cause no falcon pilot is gonna hang around for 30 seconds or whatever after they see the pretty glowing lights. that part, at least, is theoretical. actually the only time i've ever heard of a falcon dying is when it hangs around too long getting gangmates out, or gets caught in a freak dictor bubble and takes too much owwy to survive. neither scenario is common. i would imagine that a very lucky nanogang with a sabre could do it, but i don't see it being very likely. edit: i suppose maybe an arty-maelstrom or something might be able to alpha one. again, not very likely that you're gonna one-shot it, and you're not gonna get a second.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.12 03:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No eccm on curse? You want to fly 150km with it and then hope for it to miss a cycle? Its more likely that he will simply warp to his 150km blow gate point wich is 300km off you by then and you'll fail. I'm sorry but a freaky accident curse killing a noob falcon doesn't count. Curse just doesn't do it good enough. You need instant damage on it to totally disable it's effect on your gang. I can't decide if you're an idiot or not. You know better than this. -Liang
Opertone SIEGE.	Posted - 2008.06.12 04:31:00 - [25] 2 cruise FOF ravens... this is the counter, which means falcon will not dare to attack ravens. FOF cruise manticores can help counter the falcon, by which i mean scare off... killing the falcon depends upon falcon pilot's mistakes. i can suggest a covops to locate the falcon pilot bookmarks and to give warp on top point.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.12 04:47:00 - [26] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No eccm on curse? You want to fly 150km with it and then hope for it to miss a cycle? Its more likely that he will simply warp to his 150km blow gate point wich is 300km off you by then and you'll fail. I'm sorry but a freaky accident curse killing a noob falcon doesn't count. Curse just doesn't do it good enough. You need instant damage on it to totally disable it's effect on your gang. I can't decide if you're an idiot or not. You know better than this. -Liang I personally was pleased and surprised to get a free set of bookmarks around every gate and station when I bought my first falcon. It really does give an advantage that no other ship can possibly match, for no effort whatsoever. Also a short note explaining how it's an exploit to use a sniper-fit apoc to two-volley Falcons. That was reassuring, let me tell you. Oh and Sensor Integrity gang warfare links are only used by terrorists. And my alt.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.06.12 05:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Lithalnas sniper sensor boosted battleships, lots of them. Lots of them? I have to disagree here. On a ship that is protected by distance and electronic mumbo jumbo, it doesn't take much firepower to drive them from the field. If my falcons start getting SCRATCHED I'm probably thinking hard about warping. Even the Rokh, which does WOEFUL damage for it's ship class at fleet ranges will punch through the Falcon's slim buffer in mere seconds. ONE sniper battleship that isn't jammed is enough. Hell, one ship in firing range that isn't jammed is enough to make most falcon pilots nervous. If you want a perfect anti-falcon/rook ship, look no further than the Apoc. 8 Tachy's against the weakest resist on the falcon means a single volley removes the shield - enough to send even hardened falcon pilots running unless they have good reason to believe the apoc is going down before he fires a second volley. A single ECCM combined with the propensity of many falcon pilots to have only ONE Amarr racial jammer on board means that you'll get to spend 60% or more of your time blasting away.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2008.06.12 05:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Gark32 actually the only time i've ever heard of a falcon dying is when it... takes too much owwy to survive. I think alot of other ships have that problem too. IMO best counters would be your own ECM boat or a BS Sniper. Nano is a slim possibility, but will most likely just make the Falcon/Rook move rather than killing it. All the other ships suggested so far are simply too specialized to perform any other function in the gang. ECCM Eagle will get massacred by the oppossing gangmates. Same with Arazu. Nanos end up wasting time running around without any profitable results. Gotta remember that you are not fighting JUST the Falcon/Rook, you are fighting it's entire gang.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.06.12 05:36:00 - [29] whine on the forums duh! and yes battleships with an eccm (or two), and enough range to hit at 200km +/- 20, preferably +
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.06.12 05:37:00 - [30] Originally by: Lithalnas sniper sensor boosted battleships, lots of them. One will take it out If the pilot setup for max E-war then there will be no tank so it will be open to 2-3 hits max. Local and Covert cloaking Idea

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.12 05:48:00 - [31] Battleships? duh. You want something the same size to counter something. I mean something bigger always counters something smaller one way or another. Every answer shouldn't be: Bring a BS, Carrier and a Titan. Falcons are used in cruiser sized gangs. If you have a cruiser sized gang of your own you don't want to drag along a battleship just to counter a damn recon. So let's just leave the silly battleships out of this. Cruiser sized counters....Let's hear them. Oh and the ones that actually work on a falcon with bookmarks, ie forget the curse.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.12 07:31:00 - [32] If you're going to insist the falcon has bookmarks, then it's reasonable to specify some preparation on behalf of the countering ships too. And where is it written that counters must be in the same class? An interceptor is smaller than a falcon, but, with drones assigned, it can kill one - even if it's jammed, it can still bump the falcon and make it hard to warp. Eagles, Vagabonds and Arazus are cruiser class counter ships if you insist though. All 3 of those make me damb nervous. A BC/Commandship with Sensor Integrity link running will significantly reduce my jamming chances. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Billy Merc ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.12 08:38:00 - [33] In gangs....simple Ingrediants 1 x pilot with decent electronics skills 1 x ferox ??? x PECCM 2 x ECCM (for the ferox itself) ??? x plates a) No one primaries ferox b) no one suspects ferox c) No one in your gang has to compromise there ship to fit dumb ass ECCM mods
Segge Bolled Rainy Day Industries	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:13:00 - [34] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 12/06/2008 01:06:21 Bad falcons + rooks will die to anything nano, with each nano ship going after them increasing the chance of falcon death. Bad nano pilots approach the Falcon directly from a long range, and at the last moment before they can bump/scramble: The Falcon warps clean away, leaving the nano to automatically slow down ... and stop. Leaving a wave of well timed cruise missiles to slaughter an inattentive Interceptor,
Dennis Nedry	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:18:00 - [35] 1 volley from 2 stealth bombers
Lord WarATron Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:21:00 - [36] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 12/06/2008 10:25:42 Silly as it sounds, but Cruise Ravens with ECCM + range/speed rigs are excellent falcon killers. You wont scramble it, but by the time the 200km+ falcon relises he is under attack and trys to warp out, he might die to the second volley, sometimes the first. The sheer number of 200-250km jamming falcon pilots who do not align is shocking. -- Billion Isk Mission
Crellion Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.12 11:15:00 - [37] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Battleships? duh. You want something the same size to counter something. I mean something bigger always counters something smaller one way or another. Every answer shouldn't be: Bring a BS, Carrier and a Titan. Falcons are used in cruiser sized gangs. If you have a cruiser sized gang of your own you don't want to drag along a battleship just to counter a damn recon. So let's just leave the silly battleships out of this. Cruiser sized counters....Let's hear them. Oh and the ones that actually work on a falcon with bookmarks, ie forget the curse. Are you thick or are you just pretending to be? Go wash dishes :)
Farsi Caldoran	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:12:00 - [38] ^_^ You get a warning bracket whenever any ship fires at you, and yes not aligning is kind of silly
Tamoko	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:20:00 - [39] Edited by: Tamoko on 12/06/2008 12:24:08 Originally by: Streikeer all good info. what's the best Gallente ship for this purpose? Arazu? Lachesis? Keres? A single ECCM on an Arazu or Lachesis yields about 50 ECCM strength. A triple-amped falcon has about a 50% chance of missing every twenty seconds if he's got two gallente racials. Less if he's got some off-race or multispecs to slam down on you, too. A second ECCM sets you around 95 ECCM. Same falcon now has a 72% chance of missing with two racials. Suddenly his life expectancy just got real short. ... As for best ship for making the kill, I'm going to go with ECCMed Megathron (gallente only). Though the arazu probably stands a better chance of disabling the falcon. ---
achoura	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:27:00 - [40] Ishtar/fof nano hac. *The EVE servers and their patches*

Zeknichov Dark Prophecy Inc. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.12 12:36:00 - [41] Here's why the best way to counter ECM is with more ECM. 5a vs 5b engagement. 5a has a falcon. 5b does not. Group meets each other. 'a' has 4 people that are main targeting one ship from 'b'. 3 'b' ships are jammed. One 'b' ship is a nano-ishtar or curse or whatever counter you have and is engaging the falcon. Ship is almost in range of falcon. Falcon warp away to SS 200Km away in the opposite direction. Falcon continues jamming everyone in the fight. The falcon counter just wasted all that time trying to get in range of the falcon for nothing and needs to do it again. B would be more effective just having a falcon then a specific ship designed to counter a falcon. The best counter to ECM is ECM.
Jallem Sims Quantum Warriors	Posted - 2008.06.12 13:05:00 - [42] welcome to the infinite possibility game
Ulcious	Posted - 2008.06.12 13:10:00 - [43] You do know you can get a rohk with 170 sensor str, max lock range & 250km effective fighting range.... Most falcons would leave after first volly, 1 missed jamm = 4 vollys = dead falcon. Tried & tested
Grimpak Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.12 14:24:00 - [44] Edited by: Grimpak on 12/06/2008 14:28:51 Originally by: Tamoko Edited by: Tamoko on 12/06/2008 12:24:08 Originally by: Streikeer all good info. what's the best Gallente ship for this purpose? Arazu? Lachesis? Keres? A single ECCM on an Arazu or Lachesis yields about 50 ECCM strength. A triple-amped falcon has about a 50% chance of missing every twenty seconds if he's got two gallente racials. Less if he's got some off-race or multispecs to slam down on you, too. A second ECCM sets you around 95 ECCM. Same falcon now has a 72% chance of missing with two racials. Suddenly his life expectancy just got real short. ... As for best ship for making the kill, I'm going to go with ECCMed Megathron (gallente only). Though the arazu probably stands a better chance of disabling the falcon. however such arazu with such a specific fit is pretty much useless vs anything else. to make sure that such falcon is pretty much out of fight, you need 3 damps. many falcons use SB, wich gives him a targeting range of 240km. 3 damps on the arazu, means that the falcon gets a max targeting range of 46km, wich means that for the arazu is still failable (not much but still...), since the optimal for damps is 42 with lvl4 skills and no range rigs, nevermind the fact that you need to be at that range aswell to be damn sure that the damps will hit. now for the arazu setup, an ECCM on the arazu, with a 3damp + sensor booster + mwd setup, means that you don't have space for a warp jammer, meaning that unless you want to make the arazu useless for a short period of time, you will need at least another ship to do the tackling job, and even so, a smart falcon pilot always packs a multispec for such problems, meaning he can just jam the tackler and warp away to another place. swapping the SB for another ECCM also gives you even more strength vs the falcon's jammers, but then again, unless you drop the mwd or one of the damps, you're restricted to a 140km range bracket, wich means that even you succeed in triple dampen the falcon at such range, you need to be at at 140km range max, while the falcon is able to be at 240km range and have jammers that are at 100% at 213km range. in sum, for an arazu to be able to counter a falcon, it needs pretty much a setup that will only be really useful against that ship, and even so, it's all just a matter of luck. my advice? to counter a falcon, the rook is better due to the highest sensor str of all non-cap ships. or you can bring your own falcon. as for an arazu vs rook, the same problem persists, with the addon that the rook can target 12km further (3 damps brings a SB'ed rook down to 58km), and it actually has some firepower.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.12 14:36:00 - [45] Originally by: Crellion Are you thick or are you just pretending to be? Go wash dishes :) I don't see any arguments. Atleast try using some.
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.06.12 14:45:00 - [46] Hmmm, everyone's forgotten one very easy, and very evil, counter to any E-war ships from range. Passive targeters. Falcon's fleet says 'XYZ is targeting me' so the falcon prepars to jam that target... meanwhile the Tempest sitting there targeting no one has the Falcon bracketed and is just waiting for the Fleet Comm to say 'engage'... I've seen more than a fair share of damp-lachs, Rooks, falcs, ect vanish within 1 second of engagement because they thought no one had them lit up.
bloomich Out Siders	Posted - 2008.06.12 14:48:00 - [47] Originally by: Ulcious You do know you can get a rohk with 170 sensor str, max lock range & 250km effective fighting range.... Most falcons would leave after first volly, 1 missed jamm = 4 vollys = dead falcon. Tried & tested Most battleships can hit a falcon. Falcons tend to focus on jamming turret ships, which means cruise ravens in a fleet fight are really good as almost everybody ignores them till last. Yeah it sounds stupid but ravens are basically anti-support and not shooting primaries. If more people use ravens that can hit a 200km+ falcon in 10 seconds with speed rigged missiles, then there would be no issue at all. Before rigs, ravens were a joke in fleet fights. Things have changed and rigged ravens are now damm good in fleet fights.
Ulcious	Posted - 2008.06.12 14:56:00 - [48] Originally by: bloomich Originally by: Ulcious You do know you can get a rohk with 170 sensor str, max lock range & 250km effective fighting range.... Most falcons would leave after first volly, 1 missed jamm = 4 vollys = dead falcon. Tried & tested Most battleships can hit a falcon. Falcons tend to focus on jamming turret ships, which means cruise ravens in a fleet fight are really good as almost everybody ignores them till last. Yeah it sounds stupid but ravens are basically anti-support and not shooting primaries. If more people use ravens that can hit a 200km+ falcon in 10 seconds with speed rigged missiles, then there would be no issue at all. Before rigs, ravens were a joke in fleet fights. Things have changed and rigged ravens are now damm good in fleet fights. Falcons arnt really that much of a problem in fleet fights, they can be insta popped if to close to anything.. Its the 240km ones which can only be hit by rokhs and others that are the problem, and those falcons usually jamm the ppl who are shooting at them first. An instant damage 250km rokh thats incredibly harder to jamm is vastly supior @ anti-falcon duty. Moreso in smaller gangs as @ 250km sniper you will be operating in the falcons falloff (hard to reach 250km Optimal with t2 racials).
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.06.12 15:18:00 - [49] Ferox - Anti ECM sniper 2x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 2x Reactor Control Unit 2x Sensor Booster II (range) 2x Tracking Computer II (range) Gravimetric ECCM II 6x 250mm Railgun II (Spike) 3x Hybrid Locus Coordinator (2mil a piece VERY cost effective rig) Max skills: 182.58km locking range 178+15km firing range with 160 dps Sensor Strength of 37.5 Wayyyyy cheaper to replace than an Eagle ;) __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.06.12 15:22:00 - [50] Stealth Bombers are nasty Falcon killers if you setup properly: 2x Ballistic Control unit II Warp Disruptor (best named) Sensor Booster II (resolution script) 2x ECCM (best named) 3x Malkuth Cruise Improved Cloaking II 71.9 Sensor Strength Uncloak - lock, scram, fire away. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.

Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.12 16:40:00 - [51] Originally by: Mister Xerox Hmmm, everyone's forgotten one very easy, and very evil, counter to any E-war ships from range. Passive targeters. Falcon's fleet says 'XYZ is targeting me' so the falcon prepars to jam that target... meanwhile the Tempest sitting there targeting no one has the Falcon bracketed and is just waiting for the Fleet Comm to say 'engage'... I've seen more than a fair share of damp-lachs, Rooks, falcs, ect vanish within 1 second of engagement because they thought no one had them lit up. Oh you had to go and tell them, you SOB. You just couldn't keep it quiet, could you? You just made the list, mister. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Merroki	Posted - 2008.06.12 19:29:00 - [52] Originally by: Omarvelous Stealth Bombers are nasty Falcon killers if you setup properly: 2x Ballistic Control unit II Warp Disruptor (best named) Sensor Booster II (resolution script) 2x ECCM (best named) 3x Malkuth Cruise Improved Cloaking II 71.9 Sensor Strength Uncloak - lock, scram, fire away. Like you'll ever get a lock with 250 scan res before they warp off..
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.12 19:50:00 - [53] Originally by: Merroki Like you'll ever get a lock with 250 scan res before they warp off.. Actually, there's a really really good chance that he'll just sit there and devote a jammer to you when one comes available. Last night, I killed a Falcon, if you can believe that! Holy crap, nerf <Stiletto>! -Liang
Stefan F Enrave Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 20:12:00 - [54] Originally by: Mister Xerox Hmmm, everyone's forgotten one very easy, and very evil, counter to any E-war ships from range. Passive targeters. Falcon's fleet says 'XYZ is targeting me' so the falcon prepars to jam that target... meanwhile the Tempest sitting there targeting no one has the Falcon bracketed and is just waiting for the Fleet Comm to say 'engage'... I've seen more than a fair share of damp-lachs, Rooks, falcs, ect vanish within 1 second of engagement because they thought no one had them lit up. You get 5s to lock and kill me, after that i'm recloaked mwd'ing away waiting for the ecm cycle to end, before i repeat the cycle.
supr3m3justic3 ACE'S OVER 8'S The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.06.12 23:17:00 - [55] blaster rokh with nuets, web, point, eccm or back up array!
Mortuus Demonic Corp G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.06.13 05:43:00 - [56] Nano recon with ECCM. Occassus Republica <3
Rabbit Pearl Gemini Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.13 11:14:00 - [57] Surprised no one mentioned, StealthBomber w/ FoF's. Small, Not something many people notice. And if you happen to damp him before a jam goes off. May not kill it, but it will certainly get rid of it.
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2008.06.13 11:23:00 - [58] Originally by: Stefan F Originally by: Mister Xerox Hmmm, everyone's forgotten one very easy, and very evil, counter to any E-war ships from range. Passive targeters. Falcon's fleet says 'XYZ is targeting me' so the falcon prepars to jam that target... meanwhile the Tempest sitting there targeting no one has the Falcon bracketed and is just waiting for the Fleet Comm to say 'engage'... I've seen more than a fair share of damp-lachs, Rooks, falcs, ect vanish within 1 second of engagement because they thought no one had them lit up. You get 5s to lock and kill me, after that i'm recloaked mwd'ing away waiting for the ecm cycle to end, before i repeat the cycle. Uhhhh... No? I already have you locked, and I'm just sitting there waiting for one side or the other to engage.. hell, I can even be locking up the rest of the combat group and lobbing drones/cruise/whatever at them so they think I'm actually in the fight. The wonderful thing about passive targeters is that the person locked has no clue (it only works on one target per passive targeter) until you actually aggress. 2x Tempests w/ 1400mm Arties = dead falcon in 1 salvo, or at most 2 but it'll probably try to GTFO in the 6 seconds before the second volley arrives. Oh, and another thing... a neutral with a passive targeter can lock a Falcon/Bomber/whatever... and it can't recloak, even though they don't see who has them locked.
Jaketh Ivanes 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.06.13 11:31:00 - [59] I havn't read any reply, so if this is already said, sorry . If I knew I would meet a rook/Falcon, i would fit a lot of ECCM and a passive targeter. That way, the Rook/Falcon would think he got me jammed and suddenly he would take massive damage. Only problem is surviving the Falcon/Rook's friends.
Stefan F Enrave Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.13 11:32:00 - [60] Edited by: Stefan F on 13/06/2008 11:34:52 Edited by: Stefan F on 13/06/2008 11:32:35 @xerox Give me one reason why i should sit there uncloaked before the game starts. Any decent falcon pilot will show up late, just like all other force recons, to give the enemy a false impression of a winnable fight. If you ever have been into 0.0 blobfights you would have known that there also is no "waiting before one side fires", only thing remotely resembling to that is jumping a fleet into a hostile system and hold your jumpcloaks untill everyone has loaded grid. Even then, you can't target **** because you are either cloaked yourself or cant see the cloaked ships that just jumped through the gate.

Grimpak The Republican 1st Strike Force	Posted - 2008.06.13 13:11:00 - [61] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes I havn't read any reply, so if this is already said, sorry . If I knew I would meet a rook/Falcon, i would fit a lot of ECCM and a passive targeter. That way, the Rook/Falcon would think he got me jammed and suddenly he would take massive damage. Only problem is surviving the Falcon/Rook's friends. the falcon pilot knows when the jam was successful. don't think that the timer only shows up to the jamming ship
Crellion Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:10:00 - [62] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Crellion Are you thick or are you just pretending to be? Go wash dishes :) I don't see any arguments. Atleast try using some. Lol ok arguments then: Saying "dont use BS counters show me how its done with cruisers" is nonesense. Example the Eagle. On a sniper set it looks effing awsome if BSs were not allowed to play but they are and they are all over the place and so while the Eagle looks good on paper its niche is the size of 1/5 my backpocket because of the fact that BSs are allowed to play wherever HACs and reckons are in pvp (fw might give an alternative bu dont be pedantic). The same is true for Falcons. There is no easy cruiser counter but whenever Falcons try to play with an enemy gang (not even fleet) of long range BSs they go pop-pop-pop. So your post trying to exclude BS snipers (available to all races and very effective as they can 2 volley a Falcon) and say Eagle is the only counter (which is available only to Caldari - the same race as the Falcons and is a very poor counter because it is easier to jam than a BS and has a fraction of the dps and only kinetic and thermal) was, respectfully, moronic, Lyria. The only reason Falcons are used a lot in long range is because of nanos being fotm... an abuse to counter another abuse. Now I think I know you a bit ingame and did not want to write a large post like this to state the obvious and thought a tongue in cheak one line rebuff would be better as the arguments should be obvious to you. I thought you allready know all the above and was just politicking... It appears you actually needed to be told... well ... enjoy...
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:20:00 - [63] Edited by: Omarvelous on 13/06/2008 14:21:53 Originally by: Merroki Originally by: Omarvelous Stealth Bombers are nasty Falcon killers if you setup properly: 2x Ballistic Control unit II Warp Disruptor (best named) Sensor Booster II (resolution script) 2x ECCM (best named) 3x Malkuth Cruise Improved Cloaking II 71.9 Sensor Strength Uncloak - lock, scram, fire away. Like you'll ever get a lock with 250 scan res before they warp off.. Warped off Falcon = no ship jamming your friends eh? I spend 15-20mil to drive off a 150milish ship. Works as good as a kill to me. Edit - ahh I see I titled it as a Falcon killer - it just sounds better as a killer vs a driver-offer. My point is - if its killed or warps off, your gang isn't being affected by him. I think the ECCM SB is a good cost effective counter to a Falcon. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Crellion Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:22:00 - [64] Sounds good to me if you happen to be cloaked near the Falcon but you have to use many stealth bombers claoked at random places to hope be near a Falcon using a random ssniper spot anywhere withn 200kms of the gate where the fight is or whatnot... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:45:00 - [65] Originally by: Crellion Lol ok arguments then: Saying "dont use BS counters show me how its done with cruisers" is nonesense. Example the Eagle. On a sniper set it looks effing awsome if BSs were not allowed to play but they are and they are all over the place and so while the Eagle looks good on paper its niche is the size of 1/5 my backpocket because of the fact that BSs are allowed to play wherever HACs and reckons are in pvp (fw might give an alternative bu dont be pedantic). The same is true for Falcons. There is no easy cruiser counter but whenever Falcons try to play with an enemy gang (not even fleet) of long range BSs they go pop-pop-pop. You don't seem to understand ship size balance. It is quite imbalanced that a cruiser sized vessel desperately needs battleships and bigger to effectively be countered. If you don't understand why this is an issue you need to start playing this game or just for one minute step out of your falcon alt. Or maybe invest in a new brain. See what I did there? I insulted you too.
Alowishus	Posted - 2008.06.13 15:30:00 - [66] How come when people say "counter" they mean "catch and kill solo"? I think it's asking a lot to be able to catch and kill an expensive cloaking ewar ship by yourself. By the same token it's also pretty hard to die to one. Assuming the Falcon is at range and has you permajammed then just warp away, is it that hard? If he's up close then I suggest an Onyx with FoFs, that's a sure fire cruiser vs. cruiser way to kill a Falcon.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.13 17:26:00 - [67] Originally by: Alowishus How come when people say "counter" they mean "catch and kill solo"? I think it's asking a lot to be able to catch and kill an expensive cloaking ewar ship by yourself. By the same token it's also pretty hard to die to one. Assuming the Falcon is at range and has you permajammed then just warp away, is it that hard? If he's up close then I suggest an Onyx with FoFs, that's a sure fire cruiser vs. cruiser way to kill a Falcon. Yeah because the other cloaking recons have so much better tank and are so much cheaper? And no we are not talking about solo catching it. This is about falcons not being counterable by enough ships/mods in its own ship size class.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:45:00 - [68] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Crellion Lol ok arguments then: Saying "dont use BS counters show me how its done with cruisers" is nonesense. Example the Eagle. On a sniper set it looks effing awsome if BSs were not allowed to play but they are and they are all over the place and so while the Eagle looks good on paper its niche is the size of 1/5 my backpocket because of the fact that BSs are allowed to play wherever HACs and reckons are in pvp (fw might give an alternative bu dont be pedantic). The same is true for Falcons. There is no easy cruiser counter but whenever Falcons try to play with an enemy gang (not even fleet) of long range BSs they go pop-pop-pop. You don't seem to understand ship size balance. It is quite imbalanced that a cruiser sized vessel desperately needs battleships and bigger to effectively be countered. If you don't understand why this is an issue you need to start playing this game or just for one minute step out of your falcon alt. Or maybe invest in a new brain. See what I did there? I insulted you too. Actually, the Average Cerb can sling a heavy missile out to falcon range - and it can deliver enough DPS to quickly drive the falcon from the field. The Eagle may deliver less DPS but it's quite a bit quicker about it. Zealot MIGHT be able to reach out and touch the falcon, but the falcon would have to be playing fairly close for that to work, but then again the single amarr spec jammer most falcons carry mean the zealot (since it's often nano'd) can easily burn into it's firing range and then just wait for a missed jam cycle. The ONLY real issue keeping T1 cruisers and what not from engaging a falcon is the range a falcon can operate at. Given that a number of T2 cruisers can sling hate and discontent as far as the average falcon I'd say your argument doesn't really stand. Still, what do you want out of the ship? It simply cannot withstand any form of punishment and is not ever going to be fast enough to evade damage. It's ONLY defense is jammers and range. I guarntee you once a Falcon pilot starts taking ANY damage they're thinking REALLY hard about making a warp - and a warp works nearly as well as a kill because it breaks the locks and jams. Even tactical on grid warps remove the falcon from the fight for a 10 or more seconds - more than enough time for any of the Anti-Support style cruisers to start repositioning to do it all again. Is it annoying? Probably but will it work? Yep.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.13 20:32:00 - [69] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You don't seem to understand ship size balance. It is quite imbalanced that a cruiser sized vessel desperately needs battleships and bigger to effectively be countered. If you don't understand why this is an issue you need to start playing this game or just for one minute step out of your falcon alt. Or maybe invest in a new brain. See what I did there? I insulted you too. You don't seem to understand that bigger ships are not necessarily better than smaller ones. There are roles for most ships in this game. And bigger ships can`t compete with smaller ones in MANY of these roles. Now lets talk about stupidity. You've never written a good argument on these forums. You are an amarr whiner that goes with the band wagon. A player who lacks the intelligence necessary to understand even the most basic mechanics in this game. Crellion is someone who knows what he is talking about, you are just a clueless big mouth. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Alowishus	Posted - 2008.06.13 21:28:00 - [70] Edited by: Alowishus on 13/06/2008 21:28:17 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Alowishus How come when people say "counter" they mean "catch and kill solo"? I think it's asking a lot to be able to catch and kill an expensive cloaking ewar ship by yourself. By the same token it's also pretty hard to die to one. Assuming the Falcon is at range and has you permajammed then just warp away, is it that hard? If he's up close then I suggest an Onyx with FoFs, that's a sure fire cruiser vs. cruiser way to kill a Falcon. Yeah because the other cloaking recons have so much better tank and are so much cheaper? And no we are not talking about solo catching it. This is about falcons not being counterable by enough ships/mods in its own ship size class. Your one dimensional view of PvP and balance sucks, frankly. It's people like you who wish every ship was the same. Balance has nothing to do with equality within the same class, we'd have a pretty boring game if it did. Falcons are counterable. So are Vagabonds. I'm sorry you haven't figured it out, or don't have the skills to deploy these tactics. Don't make the rest of us suffer by dumbing down the game for you. Eve has four races with distinct strengths and weaknesses, the Falcon is very elusive by nature of Ewar. But it also isn't going to be a solowtfpwn mobile.

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.14 14:05:00 - [71] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 14/06/2008 14:06:14 Originally by: Alowishus Your one dimensional view of PvP and balance sucks, frankly. It's people like you who wish every ship was the same. Balance has nothing to do with equality within the same class, we'd have a pretty boring game if it did. Falcons are counterable. So are Vagabonds. I'm sorry you haven't figured it out, or don't have the skills to deploy these tactics. Don't make the rest of us suffer by dumbing down the game for you. Eve has four races with distinct strengths and weaknesses, the Falcon is very elusive by nature of Ewar. But it also isn't going to be a solowtfpwn mobile. Dumbing the game down for me? What the heck are you talking about? If they removed falcons would the game be duller? Not really. You are dreaming if you think falcons are not a serious issue outside fleet warfare. Half of eve has falcon alts, yeah including me. Because that is how you counter falcons. I know you are trying to convince people otherwise because you are in love with your falcon but please try to remove the tinfoil hat next time you comment.
Kraleak Induseng Enterprises R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.06.14 14:24:00 - [72] Drones and timing works alot for me. Generally pull my drones in as their cycle is finishing, and then throw them out again just as their cycle finishes. Generally will make the drones auto aggress onto the Falcon. Too bad sometimes they do get outwithout tackle :\ Quote: Originally by: CCP Prism X omgomgomgomg....gag me with a SPOON! Quote: Originally by: CCP Prism X devs are tasty treats
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.14 15:06:00 - [73] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Dumbing the game down for me? What the heck are you talking about? If they removed falcons would the game be duller? Not really. You are dreaming if you think falcons are not a serious issue outside fleet warfare. Half of eve has falcon alts, yeah including me. Because that is how you counter falcons. I know you are trying to convince people otherwise because you are in love with your falcon but please try to remove the tinfoil hat next time you comment. Yes, dumbing down the game for you. You don't like EW. You think the game should be about damage and armor, period, a very one-dimensional dumbed down version of Eve. Your distorted concept that bigger ships are always better shows this very clearly. EW adds possibilities, thus adding complexity, thus making the game richer. Falcons are not the only counter to falcons. In this very threads there are a lot of other counters. You just can't accept them because you are unable to think outside your very limited cookie-cutter tactics. The only thing that must be corrected about EW are dampener ships and the pilgrim. Caldari and Minmatar EW ships are perfect just the way they are. You disgust me with your whinings. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.14 15:11:00 - [74] Pop drones and bump him, then target and scram as you continue to bump. If he locks and starts to target the drones will auto aggress. Keep bumping him while your drones finish him off. Sniping BS are good options as well, especially Rokhs which have 28 sensor strength base and can hit to 250km.
Crellion Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.14 15:39:00 - [75] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Crellion Lol ok arguments then: Saying "dont use BS counters show me how its done with cruisers" is nonesense. Example the Eagle. On a sniper set it looks effing awsome if BSs were not allowed to play but they are and they are all over the place and so while the Eagle looks good on paper its niche is the size of 1/5 my backpocket because of the fact that BSs are allowed to play wherever HACs and reckons are in pvp (fw might give an alternative bu dont be pedantic). The same is true for Falcons. There is no easy cruiser counter but whenever Falcons try to play with an enemy gang (not even fleet) of long range BSs they go pop-pop-pop. You don't seem to understand ship size balance. It is quite imbalanced that a cruiser sized vessel desperately needs battleships and bigger to effectively be countered. If you don't understand why this is an issue you need to start playing this game or just for one minute step out of your falcon alt. Or maybe invest in a new brain. See what I did there? I insulted you too. 1) I have NEVER flown a Falcon, ever. I hate ECM and would like to see it removed from the game altogether. 2) BSs are not desperately needed, they are ALREADY THERE unless if you only fo nanostuff. 3) About me playing the game... Check any major alliance KB I should be there more likely than not... or browse this http://kills.eve-war.com/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=3801 (its not a killmail link its a stats page - note for mods) or just keep talking nonsense... ANyway I am not replying to anymore of your posts as you are obviously prejudiced and talking out fo your arse and I am just not interested in this sort of ... discussion (?) Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.14 15:44:00 - [76] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You don't seem to understand ship size balance. It is quite imbalanced that a cruiser sized vessel desperately needs battleships and bigger to effectively be countered. If you don't understand why this is an issue you need to start playing this game or just for one minute step out of your falcon alt. Or maybe invest in a new brain. See what I did there? I insulted you too. You don't seem to understand that bigger ships are not necessarily better than smaller ones. There are roles for most ships in this game. And bigger ships can`t compete with smaller ones in MANY of these roles. Now lets talk about stupidity. You've never written a good argument on these forums. You are an amarr whiner that goes with the band wagon. A player who lacks the intelligence necessary to understand even the most basic mechanics in this game. Crellion is someone who knows what he is talking about, you are just a clueless big mouth. AW cute, you're going to play the popularity card on me now. Oh and don't make up stuff about me not making good posts. You have no clue obviously. How about you show me some of your posts tinfoil hat man.
Atsuko Ratu VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.06.14 21:03:00 - [77] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Crellion Lol ok arguments then: Saying "dont use BS counters show me how its done with cruisers" is nonesense. Example the Eagle. On a sniper set it looks effing awsome if BSs were not allowed to play but they are and they are all over the place and so while the Eagle looks good on paper its niche is the size of 1/5 my backpocket because of the fact that BSs are allowed to play wherever HACs and reckons are in pvp (fw might give an alternative bu dont be pedantic). The same is true for Falcons. There is no easy cruiser counter but whenever Falcons try to play with an enemy gang (not even fleet) of long range BSs they go pop-pop-pop. You don't seem to understand ship size balance. It is quite imbalanced that a cruiser sized vessel desperately needs battleships and bigger to effectively be countered. If you don't understand why this is an issue you need to start playing this game or just for one minute step out of your falcon alt. Or maybe invest in a new brain. See what I did there? I insulted you too. Why should size count for anything? My fully t2 fit raven costs less than my falcons. So if I want to pretend cost is the deciding factor, the enemy should get at least a t2 fit Hyperion to deal with me. Once any ship with drones gets a lock, a falcon is forced to warp off ASAP or die within 30~ seconds. This is easily done with any nanoed cruiser. MWD up to the falcon, book mark (if he has jammed you), warp or fly off and warp back. Lock and send drones, most falcons will be surprised you warped on top of him. Oh look, a same-sized counter to the falcon.
BLOOD THIRSTY Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.06.14 21:17:00 - [78] speed + bump + fof's = lol boom!
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 00:16:00 - [79] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Why should size count for anything? My fully t2 fit raven costs less than my falcons. So if I want to pretend cost is the deciding factor, the enemy should get at least a t2 fit Hyperion to deal with me. Once any ship with drones gets a lock, a falcon is forced to warp off ASAP or die within 30~ seconds. This is easily done with any nanoed cruiser. MWD up to the falcon, book mark (if he has jammed you), warp or fly off and warp back. Lock and send drones, most falcons will be surprised you warped on top of him. Oh look, a same-sized counter to the falcon. Hmm how shall I explain this. The thing is falcons tilt small engagements way too much and you can't even see it coming. Oh and size yeah. You let me gather a 5 man gang, anything goes as long as it is cruiser sized or less. You also bring a 5 man gang. Now if one of my gangs ships is a falcon and you don't have a falcon in your team, our team will steam roll your team. Why? Because in smaller engagements there is not enough time to fool around with locking the falcon, chasing him around. Your whole 5 man gang will be dead before that. If you don't deal with him and ignore the falcon he can basically half way jam your whole gang. Now what other ship tilts balance in this way that can't even be spotted because it has cov ops cloak? No other ship, that who. I know some of you desperately need this joker card but some of us like small gang action and hate to see it ruined or be to have a mandatory falcon every time for protection. Yup, that's right, some people like small gang pvp.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.15 00:20:00 - [80] Answer is: ECCM

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 00:21:00 - [81] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Answer is: ECCM Exactly, this should be the answer that actually solves the problem above that I described. Problem is that it is too weak on anything less then a BS. That is the real issue. ECCM needs a boost.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.15 00:52:00 - [82] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Answer is: ECCM Exactly, this should be the answer that actually solves the problem above that I described. Problem is that it is too weak on anything less then a BS. That is the real issue. ECCM needs a boost. Oh so you mean for the little ships. Well i think it would be unfair for the rook/falcon if every ship including smallest ones could just wear an ECCM and be immune or near to ECM. It could get the game "overbalanced" if you get what i mean
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 01:12:00 - [83] Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Answer is: ECCM Exactly, this should be the answer that actually solves the problem above that I described. Problem is that it is too weak on anything less then a BS. That is the real issue. ECCM needs a boost. Oh so you mean for the little ships. Well i think it would be unfair for the rook/falcon if every ship including smallest ones could just wear an ECCM and be immune or near to ECM. It could get the game "overbalanced" if you get what i mean Well that's the thing. Even ECCMd battleships aren't immune. Cruisers and frigs have WAY less odds and you'll basically never see this mod on anything smaller then a BS.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 01:48:00 - [84] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well that's the thing. Even ECCMd battleships aren't immune. Cruisers and frigs have WAY less odds and you'll basically never see this mod on anything smaller then a BS. Well that's the thing, unless it's 100% guaranteed immunity to all forms of ewar, you'll never stop complaining. It apparently isn't enough that your ships are now good enough to overcome the absurd amount of "Amarr sucks" bias to be widely regarded as "quite excellent" - now you have to attempt to destroy everyone else's reasonable ships as well. Do you seriously play the game to remove variety and destroy it? -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.15 02:46:00 - [85] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well that's the thing. Even ECCMd battleships aren't immune. Cruisers and frigs have WAY less odds and you'll basically never see this mod on anything smaller then a BS. Well if you put an ECCM on a BS you get sensor stregth at abour 40. Since the usual Rook/Falcon jam stregth is about 13 with the ECCM they have only 30% chance to jam you compaired to the 70% they had before. I think its fair on both sides like this. Lets not forget that the BS can be insured so its very expandable while the t2 ships can't and need a ton of sp to fly.So i think it's fair as it is.
Sin Stylejr	Posted - 2008.06.15 02:50:00 - [86] Funny how history revolves so quickly in eve. ECM is being looked at as over powerd again. So is it to early to start whining about tempests 1 shotting haulers and shuttles? maybe next month? My 2 cents. i think ecm has a place in game. I think rooks and falcons are right and ecm drones are over powerd. Course whining about drones is another thread now isnt it lol. Eve is forever changing and with every nerf/buff comes a new overpowerd ship or fotm. Doesnt matter how much you skill or how long you play you cant guess whats coming. Find a ship and a role that you enjoy. Not one thats over powerd today but one you ENJOY playing. This way your haveing fun what your doing even when that 12 yr old is out laughing in his nanoishtar err i mean fotm. Let them laugh in their hard skilled fotm everyone gets a turn and you will get yours :)
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.15 03:06:00 - [87] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer AW cute, you're going to play the popularity card on me now. Oh and don't make up stuff about me not making good posts. You have no clue obviously. How about you show me some of your posts tinfoil hat man. All my posts regarding game mechanics are backed up by numbers and clear logic. Use the search tool if you want to find them. You, on the other hand, sir, have only childish whinings. Quote: You let me gather a 5 man gang, anything goes as long as it is cruiser sized or less. You also bring a 5 man gang. Now if one of my gangs ships is a falcon and you don't have a falcon in your team, our team will steam roll your team. Why? Because in smaller engagements there is not enough time to fool around with locking the falcon, chasing him around. Your whole 5 man gang will be dead before that. If you don't deal with him and ignore the falcon he can basically half way jam your whole gang. Again, why cruiser and bellow? You keep stuborningly insisting on that point. Maybe you should read this: pre-arranged pvp Quote: Well that's the thing. Even ECCMd battleships aren't immune. Cruisers and frigs have WAY less odds and you'll basically never see this mod on anything smaller then a BS The day they introduce a module in the game that makes a ship immune to damage you can have your module that negates ECM 100% of the time. Come on, give me a break.... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 04:16:00 - [88] Actually, lets take this another tack. Lyria, just how effective would an ECCM have to be in order to make you happy? 200%? 300%? 500%? Guaranteed no matter what? -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Mortuus Demonic Corp G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.06.15 05:03:00 - [89] I still don't see where a Nano'd Huginn with 1 ECCM at 54 strength can't do the job. Occassus Republica <3
Radcjk Dark Star LTD	Posted - 2008.06.15 06:25:00 - [90] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Not much, that's the point and that's why half of eve uses it. In fleets you bring your own falcon/rook, in small gangs you do that too. I mean if you really want to counter EW the best way is to counter it with another falcon/rook. The sad truth. Sad truth ? It's a fact of warfare. Tanks counter tanks (unsupported by infantry, clever infantry pick them off in close quarters, infantry counter infantry (often best when supported by armor or indirect fire), air support is needed for air superiority and .... ecm to stop ecm ? I wouldn't have guessed it.

Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.15 07:58:00 - [91] Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, lets take this another tack. Lyria, just how effective would an ECCM have to be in order to make you happy? 200%? 300%? 500%? Guaranteed no matter what? -Liang I think Lyria's posts make it pretty clear that it's "Guaranteed no matter what?". Ridiculous, of course, but no more ridiculous than "I want to be able to counter a whole class without changing my tactics or ships or fits in any way". She just want to be able to fit 1 midslot mod and pretend that there's no such thing as ECM. If she ever got her wish, then there'd be about a 20-minute silence, then the "omg damps are ruining 5-man cruiser gangs NERF NOAW PLX!" threads would start. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 09:59:00 - [92] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 09:59:34 Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, lets take this another tack. Lyria, just how effective would an ECCM have to be in order to make you happy? 200%? 300%? 500%? Guaranteed no matter what? -Liang Ok how about this. I want 1xECCM on a ship be as neutralizing to ECM as 1xSB is to a Damp. You can't possibly claim this to be true for cruisers and frigs that are fitting eccm, heck I dont even know if its close to true for BS.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 10:16:00 - [93] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 10:16:51 Originally by: Etho Demerzel You, on the other hand, sir, have only childish whinings. But where is the love? Oh I may not bother to back up every single truth with numbers because I actually pvp in this game unlike some.
Zephyr Rengate Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.06.15 11:08:00 - [94] How do I counter a rapier or a huggin in a blaster boat btw? Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I habe no life.
Ulcious	Posted - 2008.06.15 12:23:00 - [95] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate How do I counter a rapier or a huggin in a blaster boat btw? :D ^^ this Or how do i counter a curse in my blasterthron? Or how do i counter an araz... oh wait.. they suck...
Leviathan9 Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.06.15 12:55:00 - [96] I found during a fleet fight 2 Stealth Bombers's would do nicely. Falcon pilot will unlikely notice them till they already fired off 2 salvo's which would be enough to pop the thing. ----------------------------
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 15:45:00 - [97] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ok how about this. I want 1xECCM on a ship be as neutralizing to ECM as 1xSB is to a Damp. You can't possibly claim this to be true for cruisers and frigs that are fitting eccm, heck I dont even know if its close to true for BS. So you effectively want to remove ewar from the game entirely. There's a reason nobody flies damp boats these days... and that's because damps aren't even worth it if the person isn't fitting the counter. It'd be like adjusting racial ECM to have a base strength of 1.5-2. Sorry Lyria, but the game needs effective ewar - and it needs more of it. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:02:00 - [98] Originally by: Leviathan9 I found during a fleet fight 2 Stealth Bombers's would do nicely. Falcon pilot will unlikely notice them till they already fired off 2 salvo's which would be enough to pop the thing. yeah but stealth bombers are smaller than Falcons, so they don't count. Only tier-2 cruiser hull based counters are acceptable. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:12:00 - [99] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 09:59:34 Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, lets take this another tack. Lyria, just how effective would an ECCM have to be in order to make you happy? 200%? 300%? 500%? Guaranteed no matter what? -Liang Ok how about this. I want 1xECCM on a ship be as neutralizing to ECM as 1xSB is to a Damp. You can't possibly claim this to be true for cruisers and frigs that are fitting eccm, heck I dont even know if its close to true for BS. A sensor booster with a scan res script has zero effect on a range-scripted damp, and vice versa. So there's a ~2/9 chance that the sensor booster won't affect the damp at all, a 3/9 chance that it'll completely negate it, a 2/9 chance that it'll partially negate the intended effect of the damp. Contrariwise, an ECCM always has the intended effect of reducing the chance of a successful jam. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:20:00 - [100] Originally by: Ulcious Originally by: Zephyr Rengate How do I counter a rapier or a huggin in a blaster boat btw? :D ^^ this Or how do i counter a curse in my blasterthron? Or how do i counter an araz... oh wait.. they suck... How about cap injection? You know a cap injected zealot can *****the typical curse. Yeah, true story. But you wouldnt know this because you dont pvp.

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:22:00 - [101] Originally by: Zephyr Rengate How do I counter a rapier or a huggin in a blaster boat btw? Ok lets remove everything that counters TDs and Neuts aswell. Remove cap boosters and TEs/TCs.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:23:00 - [102] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 16:24:09 Originally by: Liang Nuren So you effectively want to remove ewar from the game entirely. There's a reason nobody flies damp boats these days... and that's because damps aren't even worth it if the person isn't fitting the counter. It'd be like adjusting racial ECM to have a base strength of 1.5-2. Sorry Lyria, but the game needs effective ewar - and it needs more of it. -Liang No you purposly are trying to misunderstand me. I want a counter that is f!ttable (ccps crap filter makes me type with a ! instead of an i) that works on something else then a battleship. If you fit a SB or TC on a cruiser or frig it can counter the EW just as well as when it is fit on a BS.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:25:00 - [103] Originally by: Leviathan9 I found during a fleet fight 2 Stealth Bombers's would do nicely. Falcon pilot will unlikely notice them till they already fired off 2 salvo's which would be enough to pop the thing. Yes but in fleet fights and bigger fights falcons arent really a big problem at all. We are talking about how its killing small gang warfare and making it boring.
Jadiin Mindstar Technology The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:30:00 - [104] Get 50 people in Ibis's. No way a falcon can jam them all.....................
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:39:00 - [105] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer How about cap injection? You know a cap injected zealot can ****the typical curse. Yeah, true story. But you wouldnt know this because you dont pvp. Oh wait, I thought that TD's were oooooh so overpowered but only towards Amarr and it's so unfair that Amarr should be affected by TD's? Now that Matari ships are rendered entirely* useless by a single unbonused TD, you're saying that the Amarr ships aren't even affected by bonused TD's? Wow. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:40:00 - [106] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 16:24:09 Originally by: Liang Nuren So you effectively want to remove ewar from the game entirely. There's a reason nobody flies damp boats these days... and that's because damps aren't even worth it if the person isn't fitting the counter. It'd be like adjusting racial ECM to have a base strength of 1.5-2. Sorry Lyria, but the game needs effective ewar - and it needs more of it. -Liang No you purposly are trying to misunderstand me. I want a counter that is f!ttable (ccps crap filter makes me type with a ! instead of an i) that works on something else then a battleship. If you fit a SB or TC on a cruiser or frig it can counter the EW just as well as when it is fit on a BS. Are sensor boosters commonly fitted on frigates? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:40:00 - [107] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ok lets remove everything that counters TDs and Neuts aswell. Remove cap boosters and TEs/TCs. On a seriousness scale of 1-10, I have the feeling you're actually at 11. How serious do you think you're being? -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:53:00 - [108] Originally by: Malcanis Are sensor boosters commonly fitted on frigates? On some interceptors yes.
Raniss	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:54:00 - [109] Ok liang and other forum vips () i have a serious question for you. What if we made ecm become less powerfull if you stick more than 1 ecm on a target? So lets say, every extra ecm you put on a target gets a stacking penalty? Would that bring ecm more in line? Or how about the (somewhere else) proposed ecm scripts? Something like long range/less ecm-strength and short range/high ecm-strength scripts?
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:55:00 - [110] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer How about cap injection? You know a cap injected zealot can ****the typical curse. Yeah, true story. But you wouldnt know this because you dont pvp. Oh wait, I thought that TD's were oooooh so overpowered but only towards Amarr and it's so unfair that Amarr should be affected by TD's? Now that Matari ships are rendered entirely* useless by a single unbonused TD, you're saying that the Amarr ships aren't even affected by bonused TD's? Wow. -Liang What does all that have to do with how bad ECCM counters ECM on anything smaller then a BS? Please explain that to me.

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:56:00 - [111] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 16:57:45 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Ok lets remove everything that counters TDs and Neuts aswell. Remove cap boosters and TEs/TCs. On a seriousness scale of 1-10, I have the feeling you're actually at 11. How serious do you think you're being? -Liang A stupid post gets a stupid answer. I just continued the train of thought he started.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:57:00 - [112] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No you purposly are trying to misunderstand me. I want a counter that is f!ttable (ccps crap filter makes me type with a ! instead of an i) that works on something else then a battleship. If you fit a SB or TC on a cruiser or frig it can counter the EW just as well as when it is fit on a BS. Sensor Strength by Class: Covetor: 8 Hulk: 8 Merlin: 11 Cormorant: 12 Flycatcher: 12 --- Good Skilled Rook Jamming Strength --- Badger II: 13 Raptor: 14 Golem: 14 --- Max Skilled Rook Jamming Strength --- Harpy: 15 Moa: 16 Cerberus: 16 Onyx: 16 Crane: 17 --- Battleships Begin Here --- Armageddon: 17 Typhoon: 18 Tempest: 19 Drake: 19 Apoc: 20 Manticore: 20 Maelstrom: 21 Megathron: 21 Abaddon: 22 Domi: 22 Raven: 22 Basilisk: 22 Hyperion: 23 Buzzard: 24 Kitsune: 24 Rokh: 24 Scorpion: 24 Widow: 24 --- Battleships End Here --- Rook: 32 Phoenix: 48* Chimera: 80* Rorqual: 115 Wyvern: 1000* Leviathan: 1000* * Can be or is immune to ewar I'd say that there's plenty of non-battleships with sensor strengths high enough to successfully counter ECM. Stop whining. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:58:00 - [113] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer What does all that have to do with how bad ECCM counters ECM on anything smaller then a BS? Please explain that to me. It has to do with how you twist the truth to present things as "oh poor little me" and "oh big bad you, you need a nerf!" -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:58:00 - [114] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A stupid post gets a stupid answer. I just continued the train of thought he started. Oh, well, it seems to follow right in line with the rest of your posts. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:00:00 - [115] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 17:01:58 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 17:01:07 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 17:00:16 Originally by: Liang Nuren Sensor Strength by Class: Covetor: 8 Hulk: 8 Merlin: 11 Cormorant: 12 Flycatcher: 12 --- Good Skilled Rook Jamming Strength --- Badger II: 13 Raptor: 14 Golem: 14 --- Max Skilled Rook Jamming Strength --- Harpy: 15 Moa: 16 Cerberus: 16 Onyx: 16 Crane: 17 --- Battleships Begin Here --- Armageddon: 17 Typhoon: 18 Tempest: 19 Drake: 19 Apoc: 20 Manticore: 20 Maelstrom: 21 Megathron: 21 Abaddon: 22 Domi: 22 Raven: 22 Basilisk: 22 Hyperion: 23 Buzzard: 24 Kitsune: 24 Rokh: 24 Scorpion: 24 Widow: 24 --- Battleships End Here --- Rook: 32 Phoenix: 48* Chimera: 80* Rorqual: 115 Wyvern: 1000* Leviathan: 1000* * Can be or is immune to ewar I'd say that there's plenty of non-battleships with sensor strengths high enough to successfully counter ECM. Stop whining. -Liang Now multiply the number of ECM modules a rook and a falcon has. And remake the list. There are quite alot of ships on that list for whom it won't make a difference at all if they fit an ECCM or not (also take into consideration that you don't need to perma jam something to effectively remove it from the fight). THAT is the problem.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:02:00 - [116] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer If you fit a SB or TC on a cruiser or frig it can counter the EW just as well as when it is fit on a BS. The SB and TC are false. Smaller ships get (by default) lower targeting ranges and higher scan resolutions. Quite literally, targeting range dampening is more powerful against smaller ships (which don't have the range to play with in general). Similarly, smaller gun sizes have smaller optimal ranges and smaller falloffs. That's why it's so incredibly hard to get frigs to deal any noticeable damage outside of web range. Fitting a TC or a TE does not help the situation nearly as much as it does on a BS. I'd actually argue that fitting an ECCM is more powerful on frigs than fitting a TC/TE. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:03:00 - [117] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Now multiply the number of ECM modules a rook and a falcon has. And remake the list. There are quite alot of ships on that list for whom it won't make a difference at all if they fit an ECCM or not. THAT is the problem. Quite honestly, how many are likely to be able to affect any one of those ships? A standard Falcon's gonna be coming down with probably two Caldari ECMs, and one racial of each other. 1 * 1 = 1. So then we can divide all the Caldari sensor strengths in "half", and see that Caldari actually need a boost. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:06:00 - [118] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer If you fit a SB or TC on a cruiser or frig it can counter the EW just as well as when it is fit on a BS. The SB and TC are false. Smaller ships get (by default) lower targeting ranges and higher scan resolutions. Quite literally, targeting range dampening is more powerful against smaller ships (which don't have the range to play with in general). Similarly, smaller gun sizes have smaller optimal ranges and smaller falloffs. That's why it's so incredibly hard to get frigs to deal any noticeable damage outside of web range. Fitting a TC or a TE does not help the situation nearly as much as it does on a BS. I'd actually argue that fitting an ECCM is more powerful on frigs than fitting a TC/TE. -Liang TD on a frig, damp on a frig: No probs, frig can still get close and still hit and tackle for its gang. 40km webs and neuts: Ok these do kill a frig but they dont have 150km range. These ships can be countered by fairly non specilized ships because they are close to the action. Falcons: Cant be spotted, can't be tackled by fast tacklers. Counters are few ships, blobs or battleships. Meh. How about making ECCM a bit better?
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:08:00 - [119] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer TD on a frig, damp on a frig: No probs, frig can still get close and still hit and tackle for its gang. 40km webs and neuts: Ok these do kill a frig but they dont have 150km range. These ships can be countered by fairly non specilized ships because they are close to the action. Falcons: Cant be spotted, can't be tackled by fast tacklers. Counters are few ships, blobs or battleships. Meh. How about making ECCM a bit better? A partial list of the counters for a rook/falcon have been enumerated in this thread - you simply refuse to listen. You want to use a Condor with 1 ECCM to be 100% immune to ECM... how lame is that? You realize that ECM will be 100% removed from the game if you make ECCM too effective right? Because only one person in your entire gang needs to have it fit. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:14:00 - [120] Even agianst a gang of 1x ECCM battleships, a good Falcon pilot can keep an average of two ships jammed at a time. ECCM is not an effective counter unless you cripple your ship by fitting two or three.

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:17:00 - [121] Originally by: Liang Nuren You want to use a Condor with 1 ECCM to be 100% immune to ECM... how lame is that? -Liang Screenshot or it didn't happen.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:19:00 - [122] Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Even agianst a gang of 1x ECCM battleships, a good Falcon pilot can keep an average of two ships jammed at a time. ECCM is not an effective counter unless you cripple your ship by fitting two or three. By the same token, fitting one battleship with three can fend off an almost infinite amount of Falcons. If a recon could not have any effect at all, there would be no reason to fly it. Notice what happened when... Damps got nerfed: Nobody flies the Arazu/Lachesis anymore Nos got nerfed: Nobody flies the Pilgrim anymore ECM got nerfed: Nobody flew the Rook/Falcon anymore Are we really sure that we want this game to become (in totality) an excel spreadsheet with my gang's DPS and hitpoints versus yours? -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:25:00 - [123] Originally by: Liang Nuren By the same token, fitting one battleship with three can fend off an almost infinite amount of Falcons. No that is not how it works.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:26:00 - [124] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Screenshot or it didn't happen. Though a screenshot is not hard to come up with, the difference between 99 and 100% is exceedingly small. And we've asked you for exact numbers, and all you do is *****, moan, and whine about how a Falcon can permajam 7 triple ECCM'ed battleships. And then you'll tell us that TD's aren't effective enough (unless they're being used against you), and that Damps are overpowered. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:26:00 - [125] Originally by: Liang Nuren ECM got nerfed: Nobody flew the Rook/Falcon anymore Are we really sure that we want this game to become (in totality) an excel spreadsheet with my gang's DPS and hitpoints versus yours? -Liang For me it is enough to nerf the falcon a bit. I mean it's basically as effective as a rook but it can cloak. You need to ask yourself why everyone is in a falcon instead of a rook.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:27:00 - [126] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No that is not how it works. It actually is, and it gets more so as gang sizes get smaller (and closer to reality). -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:27:00 - [127] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer For me it is enough to nerf the falcon a bit. I mean it's basically as effective as a rook but it can cloak. You need to ask yourself why everyone is in a falcon instead of a rook. No, the appropriate question is why they're in Falcons instead of Arazus and Pilgrims. The answer is that nerf bat that you love to swing about. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:28:00 - [128] Originally by: Liang Nuren Though a screenshot is not hard to come up with, the difference between 99 and 100% is exceedingly small. And we've asked you for exact numbers, and all you do is *****, moan, and whine about how a Falcon can permajam 7 triple ECCM'ed battleships. And then you'll tell us that TD's aren't effective enough (unless they're being used against you), and that Damps are overpowered. -Liang Really? I have said all those things?
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:29:00 - [129] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Liang Nuren Though a screenshot is not hard to come up with, the difference between 99 and 100% is exceedingly small. And we've asked you for exact numbers, and all you do is ***, moan, and whine about how a Falcon can permajam 7 triple ECCM'ed battleships. And then you'll tell us that TD's aren't effective enough (unless they're being used against you), and that Damps are overpowered. -Liang Really? I have said all those things? Yes, at various points, you have said all of those things. I've seen you *** about TD's, and in the next thread (both on the same page) ask for them to be boosted. I've seen you campaign long and hard against damps (even still, though that crusade has been overtaken by your ECM crusade), and I've seen you say that any ship should be all but immune to ECM with a single ECCM. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:29:00 - [130] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer For me it is enough to nerf the falcon a bit. I mean it's basically as effective as a rook but it can cloak. You need to ask yourself why everyone is in a falcon instead of a rook. No, the appropriate question is why they're in Falcons instead of Arazus and Pilgrims. The answer is that nerf bat that you love to swing about. -Liang Excuse me but what else can gallente and amarr recon pilots hope for? Have you seen ANY indication of the trying to fix these recons? Please show. If you can't this must mean ccp is quite happy with their performance and if that is the performance of recons I would like to bring down the other recons to that same level. Feels pretty fair to me.

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:30:00 - [131] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Liang Nuren Though a screenshot is not hard to come up with, the difference between 99 and 100% is exceedingly small. And we've asked you for exact numbers, and all you do is ***, moan, and whine about how a Falcon can permajam 7 triple ECCM'ed battleships. And then you'll tell us that TD's aren't effective enough (unless they're being used against you), and that Damps are overpowered. -Liang Really? I have said all those things? Yes, at various points, you have said all of those things. I've seen you *** about TD's, and in the next thread (both on the same page) ask for them to be boosted. I've seen you campaign long and hard against damps (even still, though that crusade has been overtaken by your ECM crusade), and I've seen you say that any ship should be all but immune to ECM with a single ECCM. -Liang Lol when did I have a crusade against damp??
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:32:00 - [132] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Excuse me but what else can gallente and amarr recon pilots hope for? Have you seen ANY indication of the trying to fix these recons? Please show. If you can't this must mean ccp is quite happy with their performance and if that is the performance of recons I would like to bring down the other recons to that same level. Feels pretty fair to me. TBH, it only feels fair to you because you want the game to be an EFT simulation of DPS, Hitpoints, and Tank. I'd go play a nice game of Galciv or SE5 if I wanted that, thank you very much. No, the forum warrioring and politicking you put out merely muddys the water, and without adequate... nudging... CCP never gets the hint. How much whining did it take to make the Amarr overpowered like they are now? A lot. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:33:00 - [133] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Lol when did I have a crusade against damp?? Before the damp nerf, and I've seen your disparaging comments about them remaining overpowered even since then. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:36:00 - [134] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 17:36:42 Originally by: Liang Nuren TBH, it only feels fair to you because you want the game to be an EFT simulation of DPS, Hitpoints, and Tank. I'd go play a nice game of Galciv or SE5 if I wanted that, thank you very much. No, the forum warrioring and politicking you put out merely muddys the water, and without adequate... nudging... CCP never gets the hint. How much whining did it take to make the Amarr overpowered like they are now? A lot. -Liang Yeah because amarr was obviously balanced because everyone flew them right? Sure blame it on EFT. Amarr overpowered? I don't think so. You just think so because we amarrian pilots have been needing to pvp hardcore because of the inherent faults in our races ships. Now that they have fixed and balanced many of our ships I can see how you might think we a overpowered. It's skill.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:36:00 - [135] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Lol when did I have a crusade against damp?? Before the damp nerf, and I've seen your disparaging comments about them remaining overpowered even since then. -Liang Well lol, damp was quite overpowered wasnt it? Have you seen what an arazu could do back then??
Bootleg Greg	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:38:00 - [136] Use Ghost Magic...
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:39:00 - [137] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/06/2008 17:40:37 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yeah because amarr was obviously balanced because everyone flew them right? Sure blame it on EFT. Amarr overpowered? I don't think so. You just think so because we amarrian pilots have been needing to pvp hardcore because of the inherent faults in our races ships. Now that they have fixed and balanced many of our ships I can see how you might think we a overpowered. It's skill. The Apoc outperforms the Arty Tempest in every possible way at every possible task... how is this balanced? IMO, Amarr is way way overpowered. -Liang Ed: Also amusing that you call what the Amarrians are doing skill, and nano pilots are clueless skilless noobs. Cute, but I like the absurdity of your claim. -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:40:00 - [138] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well lol, damp was quite overpowered wasnt it? Have you seen what an arazu could do back then?? The problem with damps had nothing to do with bonused ships, and everything to do with damps being powerful on unbonused ships. Kinda like TD's are now. The Arazu was fine back then, and the Falcon is fine now. I just wish that we had them both available now so that there was some variety in ewar. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:48:00 - [139] Originally by: Liang Nuren The Apoc outperforms the Arty Tempest in every possible way at every possible task... how is this balanced? IMO, Amarr is way way overpowered. The tempest is a better close range BS then the apoc. It's balanced. Yup. True story.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:50:00 - [140] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer The tempest is a better close range BS then the apoc. It's balanced. Yup. True story. Not really, because of the 60+km optimal you get on the Pulse Apoc. Apoc >> Tempest in all situations... it's overpowered. Yup. True story. On TQ. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 18:06:00 - [141] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer The tempest is a better close range BS then the apoc. It's balanced. Yup. True story. Not really, because of the 60+km optimal you get on the Pulse Apoc. Apoc >> Tempest in all situations... it's overpowered. Yup. True story. On TQ. -Liang LoL no, tempest is a great solo BS.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.15 18:14:00 - [142] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/06/2008 18:15:58 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer LoL no, tempest is a great solo BS. The Tempest is a very fickle ship. No matter what (shield or armor), you have a mockery of a tank - yet you can trade utility for a smidgeon of gank. Honestly, the ship is double damage bonused, and still has trouble keeping up to a ship that has no damage bonus at all. How balanced is that? Answer: It isn't. -Liang Ed: I'd like to point out that the Tempest can do nothing that isn't better done by a Phoon or a Maelstrom. :) -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 18:29:00 - [143] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 15/06/2008 18:15:58 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer LoL no, tempest is a great solo BS. The Tempest is a very fickle ship. No matter what (shield or armor), you have a mockery of a tank - yet you can trade utility for a smidgeon of gank. Honestly, the ship is double damage bonused, and still has trouble keeping up to a ship that has no damage bonus at all. How balanced is that? Answer: It isn't. -Liang Ed: I'd like to point out that the Tempest can do nothing that isn't better done by a Phoon or a Maelstrom. :) It gets double damage bonus to balance out the low damage of projectiles on that ship an projectiles have lower damage because they dont need cap. Sounds balanced to me.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.15 18:50:00 - [144] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/06/2008 18:52:41 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer But where is the love? Oh I may not bother to back up every single truth with numbers because I actually pvp in this game unlike some. No, my dear, you don't pvp. You play counterstrike in space. But that couldn't be different, we are on different leagues, I am afraid as I do possess a brain. Edit: I appologize for my previous statement. I degraded Counterstrike too much. Counterstrike is a much better game than the game you want Eve to be. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 19:50:00 - [145] Originally by: Etho Demerzel No, my dear, you don't pvp. O really? Wait, you do pvp? Really? Do you? What a joke.
Caelum Dominus Invicta.	Posted - 2008.06.15 20:00:00 - [146] Curse owns the living daylights out of a Falcon/Rook - it combines drones, a high sensor strength and neutralizers, all of which pose very much of a threat.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.15 20:02:00 - [147] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Etho Demerzel No, my dear, you don't pvp. O really? Wait, you do pvp? Really? Do you? What a joke. You seem to know a lot about me. But then again, maybe you don't. Unfortunately for you I don't give away information for free. Now you are pretty easy to figure on the other hand. You are exactly what your posts show. A mediocre player who does not understand the very basics of the game he plays, and who has to blame his own incompetence over anything but himself. Falcons are perfect as they are, so is ECM. The Flaw is in you, my dear. But I fear you cannot fix it... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Caelum Dominus Invicta.	Posted - 2008.06.15 20:23:00 - [148] Edited by: Caelum Dominus on 15/06/2008 20:23:55 NEEDS MOAR E-PEEN BOASTING EDIT: At least Lyria has the balls to post on his main.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.15 20:36:00 - [149] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer For me it is enough to nerf the falcon a bit. I mean it's basically as effective as a rook but it can cloak. You need to ask yourself why everyone is in a falcon instead of a rook. No, the appropriate question is why they're in Falcons instead of Arazus and Pilgrims. The answer is that nerf bat that you love to swing about. -Liang Excuse me but what else can gallente and amarr recon pilots hope for? Have you seen ANY indication of the trying to fix these recons? Please show. If you can't this must mean ccp is quite happy with their performance and if that is the performance of recons I would like to bring down the other recons to that same level. Feels pretty fair to me. So your argument is that since Arazus and Pilgrims are broken, Falcons should be broken too? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.15 20:40:00 - [150] Originally by: Caelum Dominus Curse owns the living daylights out of a Falcon/Rook - it combines drones, a high sensor strength and neutralizers, all of which pose very much of a threat. Rubbish, 1 falcon can permajam 12 Curses - from the next system! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 20:47:00 - [151] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/06/2008 20:35:27 Originally by: Caelum Dominus NEEDS MOAR E-PEEN BOASTING EDIT: At least Lyria has the balls to post on his main. Askign people to post with their mains in the Ships and Modules forum means you want to talk more about yourself rather than about the matters that should be at discussion here. Lets leave self addulation posts for CAOD, please. Who posts is much less relevant than what is posted here. Actually it matters who is posting when youre trying to show off your eve pvp peen that doesnt even exist and why you are posting with some noob alt character. You can check my pvp in many of my solo vids. Ive killed more solo then youll ever do in your whole pvp life. So please, dont talk about pvp peen if you arent going to show any of it.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 20:48:00 - [152] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer For me it is enough to nerf the falcon a bit. I mean it's basically as effective as a rook but it can cloak. You need to ask yourself why everyone is in a falcon instead of a rook. No, the appropriate question is why they're in Falcons instead of Arazus and Pilgrims. The answer is that nerf bat that you love to swing about. -Liang Excuse me but what else can gallente and amarr recon pilots hope for? Have you seen ANY indication of the trying to fix these recons? Please show. If you can't this must mean ccp is quite happy with their performance and if that is the performance of recons I would like to bring down the other recons to that same level. Feels pretty fair to me. So your argument is that since Arazus and Pilgrims are broken, Falcons should be broken too? Well it doesnt really matter what you and I think. CCP ignoring pilgrims and arazus must indicate that they are fine right? Go take it up with them.
Kuzya Morozov L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:06:00 - [153] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/06/2008 20:35:27 Originally by: Caelum Dominus NEEDS MOAR E-PEEN BOASTING EDIT: At least Lyria has the balls to post on his main. Askign people to post with their mains in the Ships and Modules forum means you want to talk more about yourself rather than about the matters that should be at discussion here. Lets leave self addulation posts for CAOD, please. Who posts is much less relevant than what is posted here. Actually it matters who is posting when youre trying to show off your eve pvp peen that doesnt even exist and why you are posting with some noob alt character. You can check my pvp in many of my solo vids. Ive killed more solo then youll ever do in your whole pvp life. So please, dont talk about pvp peen if you arent going to show any of it. Do you kill t1 frigs? Serious question btw.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:09:00 - [154] Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Do you kill t1 frigs? Serious question btw. I kill alot of things. Please show me what you have killed solo. Please do.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:24:00 - [155] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Actually it matters who is posting when youre trying to show off your eve pvp peen that doesnt even exist and why you are posting with some noob alt character. You can check my pvp in many of my solo vids. I've killed more solo then youll ever do in your whole pvp life. So please, dont talk about pvp peen if you arent going to show any of it. The only one who is trying to show off his e-peen is you, my dear. Check the bold part in the quote above for reference. Now try and find ANY reference in my posts bragging about my abilities whatsover. I do not praise myself. Truth is you cannot say anything about myself because I just don't give people information about what is not of their concern. But I can say a lot about you on the other hand. You are just a fail of a pvper who was in several failed Alliances, one after another. You are utterly incompetent and try to put the blame of your failures in things other than yourself to be able to cope with it. That is you, in a nutshell. I, and several other people in this thread and in many others, have given you examples of working solutions to your problem. You don't want to accept them because they do not fit your nano-gang cruiser style, which should be the end-all solution to every problem in your limited mind. They also would imply that you are to blame for your losses, which is outrageous! God, solutions were given even inside the nano-gang style. But you take the comfortable position of shunning on them and just repeating like a parrot your dellusions. God ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:26:00 - [156] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 21:25:53 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Truth is you cannot say anything about myself because I just don't give people information that will show them that I suck and have no clue wtf pvp is. Fixed......, my dear.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:28:00 - [157] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 21:25:53 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Truth is you cannot say anything about myself because I just don't give people information that will show them that I suck and have no clue wtf pvp is. Fixed......, my dear. Lol, have your daddy told you that changing quotes is a childish thing to do? If you are right, what may or may not be, I, at least have the sence of not showing how I suck. You, on the other hand show everyone how you suck all the time ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:30:00 - [158] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 21:30:53 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 21:30:03 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 21:25:53 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Truth is you cannot say anything about myself because I just don't give people information that will show them that I suck and have no clue wtf pvp is. Fixed......, my dear. Lol, have your daddy told you that changing quotes is a childish thing to do? If you are right, what may or may not be, I, at least have the sence of not showing how I suck. You, on the other hand show everyone how you suck all the time How do I suck? I suck at pvp because of what I write in the forums? What kind of retrded logic is that? I know this is your new troll trick youre using on me. Simply lie and make up stuff and play the popularity card against me so it seems that you are right and Im wrong. Well people arent that stupid, they know youre the one full of it.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:35:00 - [159] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/06/2008 21:36:50 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer [ How do I suck? I suck at pvp because of what I write in the forums? What kind of retrded logic is that? I know this is your new troll trick youre using on me. Simply lie and make up stuff and play the popularity card against me so it seems that you are right and Im wrong. Well people arent that stupid, they know youre the one full of it. Oh my, did I hit a nerve? You seem to have a problem with this popularity stuff. I will give you an advice, free of charge, though. When your popularity is really low, and when everything you write is shunned at by everyone there is usually a good motive for this. In this case it is because you only write nonsense. Considering the nonsense you write here comes from your pvp "experience" it is very easy to infer how much you suck. And it explain a lot why you fail so much and are so angry. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Caelum Dominus Invicta.	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:40:00 - [160] You're both making miserable attempts to boast your e-peens, and you are both failing. Take it somewhere else.

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:40:00 - [161] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Oh my, did I hit a nerve? You seem to have a problem with this popularity stuff. I will give you an advice, free of charge, though. When your popularity is really low, and when everything you write is shunned at by everyone there is usually a good motive for this. In this case it is because you only write nonsense. Considering the nonsense you write here comes from your pvp "experience" it is very easy to infer how much you suck. And it explain a lot why you fail so much and are so angry. 1. People don't like me because alot of noobs don't like me removing their FOTM. I don't care about FOTMs because I fly what I like and a wide range of ships. Then they try to turn it around and accusing me of being the noob. 2. Frankly, the majority is not a good measurment of what is right. You should know why. 3. Where exactly are you getting this that I fail? How do I fail in pvp? Where? Explain.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:42:00 - [162] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/06/2008 21:42:28 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 1. People don't like me because alot of noobs don't like me removing their FOTM. I don't care about FOTMs because I fly what I like and a wide range of ships. Then they try to turn it around and accusing me of being the noob. Translation: "The problem is not me. It is the world. Really! I know what is best!" ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:46:00 - [163] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 21:46:43 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/06/2008 21:42:28 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 1. People don't like me because alot of noobs don't like me removing their FOTM. I don't care about FOTMs because I fly what I like and a wide range of ships. Then they try to turn it around and accusing me of being the noob. Translation: "The problem is not me. It is the world. Really! I know what is best!" If you were smarter then average you might know this feeling. And yes, the general public is not smart.
Chinkies IV	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:47:00 - [164] god you two are so pathetic
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:47:00 - [165] Originally by: *****ies IV god you two are so pathetic Alt peen. Show me more please.
Chinkies IV	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:50:00 - [166] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: *****ies IV god you two are so pathetic Alt peen. Show me more please. if I was an alt of Etho maybe I wouldnt call him pathetic so you're smarter than average huh? amusing
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.15 21:54:00 - [167] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer If you were smarter then average you might know this feeling. And yes, the general public is not smart. And maybe I would be able to use numbers in my posts about mechanics, right, like you do? Right? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 22:11:00 - [168] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer If you were smarter then average you might know this feeling. And yes, the general public is not smart. And maybe I would be able to use numbers in my posts about mechanics, right, like you do? Right? Wait,, you do?
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.15 22:14:00 - [169] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Wait,, you do? Oh I do. Whenever I am trying to fix something that I think it is broken. Refer to the Large Artillery threads for more information about how it is done. I would here too, in answer to your arguments, if you had quanticized them. As you didn't there is nothing to refute so no need for any work on my part. You want it changed, so you have to provide the numbers to back your logic (or lack of it) up. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 22:48:00 - [170] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Wait,, you do? Oh I do. Whenever I am trying to fix something that I think it is broken. Refer to the Large Artillery threads for more information about how it is done. I would here too, in answer to your arguments, if you had quanticized them. As you didn't there is nothing to refute so no need for any work on my part. You want it changed, so you have to provide the numbers to back your logic (or lack of it) up. The balance issue is more of a opinion issue now because the thing we all cant agree on is where the line of ew balance should be drawn. How effective a single cloaking ship should be and what not. You cant use numbers for that.

Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.15 23:05:00 - [171] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer The balance issue is more of a opinion issue now because the thing we all cant agree on is where the line of ew balance should be drawn. How effective a single cloaking ship should be and what not. You cant use numbers for that. You can and NEED to use numbers to quanticize things. Without quantification there is no discussion, only vague assertions, like those you tend to make. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Atsuko Ratu VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.06.15 23:06:00 - [172] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 15/06/2008 23:07:17 Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 15/06/2008 18:52:41 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer But where is the love? Oh I may not bother to back up every single truth with numbers because I actually pvp in this game unlike some. No, my dear, you don't pvp. You play counterstrike in space. She is probably that person that whines about how Awps are unfair and only noobs use them. Lyria Skydancer Logic: Because the falcon is used more often than the other recons, it needs a nerf. Lyria Skydancer Logic 2: Because CCP has said nothing about boosting other recons, the falcon's nerfing should be my current crusade. Lyria Skydancer Logic 3: I will also ignore that CCP has said nothing about nerfing the falcon. Lyria Skydancer Logic 4: Anyone who flys a Nanoed ship successfully is a noob (even though it is arguably the hardest ship type to fly successfully) Lyria Skydancer Logic 5: Because I go against the FOTM ships, I'm automatically uber cool and a great pvper. Random Atsuko Logic: I do think that the falcon should be nerfed slightly, but only because its Ewar is on par with the Rook, not because ECM is overpowered. Or hell, boost the Rook's dps!
Atsuko Ratu VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.06.15 23:28:00 - [173] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You let me gather a 5 man gang, anything goes as long as it is cruiser sized or less. You also bring a 5 man gang. Now if one of my gangs ships is a falcon and you don't have a falcon in your team, our team will steam roll your team. Why? Because in smaller engagements there is not enough time to fool around with locking the falcon, chasing him around. Your whole 5 man gang will be dead before that. If you don't deal with him and ignore the falcon he can basically half way jam your whole gang. Actually, I baited your gang into a belt with a bait mega. Your tackler warps in at 0 (which is an ishtar), points and orbits the BS and calls for your gang to warp in. My rapier decloaks as the mega triple neuts your Ishtar. In the confusion, the mega MWDed up to him and pointed, while the rapier webbed. Your gang lands 50 off of the dead ishtar, with the falcon landing cloaked 100 off. You assume you can't lose with the falcon, so you engage the two ships on the field. The mega has 5 medium shield transfer drones on my rapier. My ishtar lands 40 off of your falcon, who immediately warps off. Any of your ("cruiser or belows") who are slower than 4km/sec have been webbed and will die. Any faster than 4km/sec managed to MWD off and warp. If the falcon had stayed, he would have had a 30~ chance of survival against the ishtar. If he missed the initial jam, he is dead. The ishtar has a single ECCM, and the falcon has a majority of his jammers (including his Gal racials) on the mega and the rapier in the middle. I also have a cruise raven and a vaga who haven't warped in, because they are not needed. Look, I can make up scenarios that go my way as well! Cept', you know, mine was detailed instead of "I HAS A FALCON YOU DIE". Also, I didn't "let you gather" anything. Wtf? I'm not convoing you asking for a 5v5. This isn't a bloody tournament. This is eve.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.15 23:31:00 - [174] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 15/06/2008 23:31:46 Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Random Atsuko Logic: I do think that the falcon should be nerfed slightly, but only because its Ewar is on par with the Rook, not because ECM is overpowered. Or hell, boost the Rook's dps! I think we can agree on that. There needs to be a point to use the combat recons. The way it is now is not good. Falcon is basically just as good as a rook except it has cov ops cloak. I actually dont have much objections with the rooks performance, only with the falcons because you cant see it even coming and it is just as good as a rook. And by the way, I looove AWP! Only noobs play on "cant use this cant use that weapon" servers. Hardcore is the way to go! :-o
Kuzya Morozov L8L8L8	Posted - 2008.06.16 02:39:00 - [175] dude bro, talking with him is pointless :) he will slap his huge wang into your face, because he is amazing at eve and has won it several times.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.16 02:49:00 - [176] Originally by: Kuzya Morozov dude bro, talking with him is pointless :) he will slap his huge wang into your face, because he is amazing at eve and has won it several times. LoL
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.16 03:32:00 - [177] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Random Atsuko Logic: I do think that the falcon should be nerfed slightly, but only because its Ewar is on par with the Rook, not because ECM is overpowered. Or hell, boost the Rook's dps! I think all combat recons should get a damage boost and maybe a tank boost as well. To fix EW there are only 3 simple things needed: - improve combate recons damage and maybe tank as said above - improve the gallent recons dampener bonuses - give the pilgrim the range bonus of the curse. This could be easily done and would balance EW between races very well, keeping it strong. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Laechyd Eldgorn Karjala Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.16 04:16:00 - [178] Originally by: Gamesguy Skipping 5 pages of crap. 10 pests/apocs, it cant jam them all, any two of them can one volley a falcon, or even just one. This. Or other recons, they all have good sensor strenghts, even without ECCM. Because falcon goes boom with couple of volleys tbh. Also, if you stop flying matar/amarr crap you'll notice your ships have pretty good sensor strenghts against jamming by default. Although no one uses amarr jammers because there's no good amarr ships... wait. <.<
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.16 06:07:00 - [179] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/06/2008 06:07:06 Originally by: Gamesguy Skipping 5 pages of crap. 10 pests/apocs, it cant jam them all, any two of them can one volley a falcon, or even just one. Yes we know that is not the problem. We know a gang of BSs can stand up against a recon. The issue is in small gang warfare. Ofcourse not everyone cares for small gang warfare. I do.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.16 07:26:00 - [180] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well it doesnt really matter what you and I think. CCP ignoring pilgrims and arazus must indicate that they are fine right? Go take it up with them. Oh wait, no-one uses Scorpions any more. Well I guess that's fine with CCP since it hasn't been changed for years except for ECM being nerfed, so lets cry for nerfs of nerf the Domi, Tempest and Armageddon. Come to think of it, you said no-one flies Rooks any more. Better nerf the Curse, Huginn and Lachesis too. You'll be with me on this, right? Bitterness isn't really a very good argument. If what you actually want is for the Pilgrim to be fixed, thats fine, let's talk about that instead of whining about a ship that works fine. (Especially when it's one of the few effective PvP ships that a whole race can fly) Campaigning for a whole ship class to be broken just because your favoured member isn't the best is just petulance. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.16 09:00:00 - [181] Damn this thread reminds me why I took the day off to play Mass Effect. Great game. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Kano Sekor modro CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.06.16 09:57:00 - [182] Originally by: Liang Nuren Damn this thread reminds me why I took the day off to play Mass Effect. Great game. -Liang Really ive heard Mass effect is quite repetitive? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.16 12:13:00 - [183] Originally by: Kano Sekor Originally by: Liang Nuren Damn this thread reminds me why I took the day off to play Mass Effect. Great game. -Liang Really ive heard Mass effect is quite repetitive? That's what reminded her. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
The Tzar Malicious Intentions Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.06.16 12:20:00 - [184] Yet another fact filled, opinion free, adult discussion on EvE-O forums. * stretches and yawns * that was a nice dream... What is this about ECCM not being an effective counter to ECM? Show me another form of anti EWAR that is more effective? Nearly 100% boost in racial signal strength, therefore reducing the effectiveness of ECM by half. Compare that to damps vs sensor boosters and its only about half as effective against as ECCM. Tracking disruptors have an even weaker counter than that. If stasis webified you can fire up the MWD, but this still has much less of an effect on your speed than ECCM does to your signal strength. Target painting, is there even a specific counter for it? If everyone stopped yelling nerf like spoilt little children then CCP wouldn't be pressured into making these quick and unbalanced changes. If I want to avoid being neuted I HAVE to bring an injector to combat it. Why should ECM be any different? For a falcon to be useful at all in lowsec the pilot has to have an enormous range of jam spots >150km from gates to engage. Do any other recons have to do this? No because they can all complete their EWAR AND nano AND fit a buffer AND do some dps. I bet you that a higher proportion of fielded falcons are popped everday than any other EWAR ship. Please stop crying nerf, you know how to combat this ship, just do it rather than expecting the devs to do it for you. __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.16 16:06:00 - [185] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well it doesnt really matter what you and I think. CCP ignoring pilgrims and arazus must indicate that they are fine right? Go take it up with them. CCP always takes its time to fix problems. Care to remember how much time did it take them to improve the Apocalypse? See? ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.16 16:52:00 - [186] Originally by: Kano Sekor Originally by: Liang Nuren Damn this thread reminds me why I took the day off to play Mass Effect. Great game. -Liang Really ive heard Mass effect is quite repetitive? It's not as repetitive as this thread, and nor is it as repetitive as raising a kid. I'm not really all that far into it though (just an afternoon of playing). So far, the thing I like about it the most is the Codex and their idea on humanity's importance on the galactic scale. Honestly, you could also consider Advent Rising (Available on Steam) if you like the idea of Human/Alien politics. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.16 17:36:00 - [187] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well it doesnt really matter what you and I think. CCP ignoring pilgrims and arazus must indicate that they are fine right? Go take it up with them. CCP always takes its time to fix problems. Care to remember how much time did it take them to improve the Apocalypse? See? And do you remember the reason they decided to change it after so many years of suckage? I'll quote ccp: "There have been a lot of requests (to put it mildly) and petitions to do "something" about the so called Amarr problem. Most of those are about Amarr not being competitive when it comes to damage output and therefore not a viable race to fly in PVP" You see, they seem to need a big riot before they change something that is obviously broken. I provide that in areas I find broken.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.06.16 18:16:00 - [188] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Kano Sekor Originally by: Liang Nuren Damn this thread reminds me why I took the day off to play Mass Effect. Great game. -Liang Really ive heard Mass effect is quite repetitive? It's not as repetitive as this thread, and nor is it as repetitive as raising a kid. I'm not really all that far into it though (just an afternoon of playing). So far, the thing I like about it the most is the Codex and their idea on humanity's importance on the galactic scale. Honestly, you could also consider Advent Rising (Available on Steam) if you like the idea of Human/Alien politics. -Liang Mass Effect's gameplay is certainly somewhat repetative and some of the interfaces (the inventory for example) are fairly terrible. The story is nothing we haven't heard before elsewhere. That being said, the entire experience is presented so well that I was willing to overlook these flaws. Though COD4 took my vote for best game of last year, Mass Effect was solidly a number 2.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.16 18:23:00 - [189] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well it doesnt really matter what you and I think. CCP ignoring pilgrims and arazus must indicate that they are fine right? Go take it up with them. CCP always takes its time to fix problems. Care to remember how much time did it take them to improve the Apocalypse? See? And do you remember the reason they decided to change it after so many years of suckage? I'll quote ccp: "There have been a lot of requests (to put it mildly) and petitions to do "something" about the so called Amarr problem. Most of those are about Amarr not being competitive when it comes to damage output and therefore not a viable race to fly in PVP" You see, they seem to need a big riot before they change something that is obviously broken. I provide that in areas I find broken. Why not campaign for the Pilgrim, which is widely reckoned to be gimped then? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.06.16 18:30:00 - [190] Edited by: Derek Sigres on 16/06/2008 18:32:20 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Well it doesnt really matter what you and I think. CCP ignoring pilgrims and arazus must indicate that they are fine right? Go take it up with them. CCP always takes its time to fix problems. Care to remember how much time did it take them to improve the Apocalypse? See? And do you remember the reason they decided to change it after so many years of suckage? I'll quote ccp: "There have been a lot of requests (to put it mildly) and petitions to do "something" about the so called Amarr problem. Most of those are about Amarr not being competitive when it comes to damage output and therefore not a viable race to fly in PVP" You see, they seem to need a big riot before they change something that is obviously broken. I provide that in areas I find broken. Why not campaign for the Pilgrim, which is widely reckoned to be gimped then? Because the nerfbat swings harder and more frequently than the boost stick would be my guess. A big part of the Amarr damage boost was done in the form of a nerf to everyone's EM resistance afterall. That being said, I LIKE amarr ships - I have more fun flying them in spite of my heavy SP investment in caldari missile tomfoolery and shield jiggering. I'm sorely tempted to train Amarr Cruiser V so I can hop into Zealots, Sac's and Curses.

Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.16 19:22:00 - [191] Originally by: Malcanis Why not campaign for the Pilgrim, which is widely reckoned to be gimped then? Have you seen the 100 page long thread about the pilgrim? Look at the date of that original post of that long pilgrim thread. After that you tell me if ccp has even mentioned doing anything about it. There is no other conclusion to make then: Hoping for nerfs is better then hoping for buffs. You take it up with ccp if you have problem with their balancing attitude. Not me.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.16 19:24:00 - [192] Originally by: Derek Sigres Mass Effect's gameplay is certainly somewhat repetative and some of the interfaces (the inventory for example) are fairly terrible. The story is nothing we haven't heard before elsewhere. That being said, the entire experience is presented so well that I was willing to overlook these flaws. Though COD4 took my vote for best game of last year, Mass Effect was solidly a number 2. I'm holding out for Spore to determine best game of the year, but so far, Mass Effect has #1 for this year. I haven't picked up COD4. -Liang -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.06.16 19:26:00 - [193] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Malcanis Why not campaign for the Pilgrim, which is widely reckoned to be gimped then? Have you seen the 100 page long thread about the pilgrim? Look at the date of that original post of that long pilgrim thread. After that you tell me if ccp has even mentioned doing anything about it. There is no other conclusion to make then: Hoping for nerfs is better then hoping for buffs. You take it up with ccp if you have problem with their balancing attitude. Not me. Your thinking is broken. I don't want to talk with you any more in case I get any on me. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.06.16 19:57:00 - [194] Worst. Thread. EVER... There are countless ways to counter ECM that are effective. I said counter not kill - the point of that ship is to stay alive. Sniper ships with ECCM. Every race has them. If your opponent bothers with ECM, you should bother to have a sniper in your gang. Inty + high sensor strength ship combo. Inty goes towards ECM ship - high sensor strength ship warps to inty and drives off falcon. This is what I meant when I suggested the stealth bomber on page 3. 72 sensor strength is quite effective at making the Falcon leave one way or another. I like small ships having weak sensor strength - it makes ECM effective against nano gangs and tacklers. It allows you to escape. Large ships with lots of dps on the other hands can still attack and potentially destroy an ECM ship. Lyria - enough of you trying to make this Gank and Tank online. You picked Amar - that's what they do - not every other race should function in a gank and tank mentality. OK back to the crapfest this thread has become. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Etho Demerzel Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.06.16 20:10:00 - [195] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer And do you remember the reason they decided to change it after so many years of suckage? I'll quote ccp: "There have been a lot of requests (to put it mildly) and petitions to do "something" about the so called Amarr problem. Most of those are about Amarr not being competitive when it comes to damage output and therefore not a viable race to fly in PVP" You see, they seem to need a big riot before they change something that is obviously broken. I provide that in areas I find broken. I pity you, Lyria. You have serious problems if you really believe this. You should see a terapeut about your paranoia... ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.06.16 20:19:00 - [196] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer And do you remember the reason they decided to change it after so many years of suckage? I'll quote ccp: "There have been a lot of requests (to put it mildly) and petitions to do "something" about the so called Amarr problem. Most of those are about Amarr not being competitive when it comes to damage output and therefore not a viable race to fly in PVP" You see, they seem to need a big riot before they change something that is obviously broken. I provide that in areas I find broken. I pity you, Lyria. You have serious problems if you really believe this. You should see a terapeut about your paranoia... Agreed, and with respect to the Amarr change, it was pretty unanamous amongst the player baae that Amarr needed a buff. With the falcon/ecm issue; its pretty 50/50, which is a good indication that its a different situation. -- Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.16 20:30:00 - [197] Originally by: Haradgrim Agreed, and with respect to the Amarr change, it was pretty unanamous amongst the player baae that Amarr needed a buff. With the falcon/ecm issue; its pretty 50/50, which is a good indication that its a different situation. Still 50/50 might indicate that there actually is a problem.
Lyria Skydancer Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2008.06.16 20:31:00 - [198] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Lyria Skydancer And do you remember the reason they decided to change it after so many years of suckage? I'll quote ccp: "There have been a lot of requests (to put it mildly) and petitions to do "something" about the so called Amarr problem. Most of those are about Amarr not being competitive when it comes to damage output and therefore not a viable race to fly in PVP" You see, they seem to need a big riot before they change something that is obviously broken. I provide that in areas I find broken. I pity you, Lyria. You have serious problems if you really believe this. You should see a terapeut about your paranoia... Yes I belive that ccp isnt able to see nessesary balance changes unless they see a riot about it. Just look at the pilgrim. Really.


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