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I almost killed an Astarte today!

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Car Wars Shinra Shinra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.15 16:50:00 - [61] Originally by: Sgt Blade man with pvp experience killing the OP and his noOb friends doesnt get any nicer then this when your victims come screaming and whining on the forums It is the step up from hate mails
Grammer The Blue Dagger Mercenery Agency	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:17:00 - [62] Originally by: Car Wars Originally by: Sgt Blade man with pvp experience killing the OP and his noOb friends doesnt get any nicer then this when your victims come screaming and whining on the forums It is the step up from hate mails QFT
Galan Amarias The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2008.06.15 17:23:00 - [63] Originally by: Sgt Blade Originally by: Akirashinu station jockeys are definately cowards. lets play this game with some enthusiasm people. how can i be a coward if i was outnumbered 5 v 1 For the remainder of the day, you sir, are my hero. Well fought. -Galan The answer to empire ganking
KingOzar Brute Strength THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.15 20:31:00 - [64] Edited by: KingOzar on 15/06/2008 20:31:04 So what happens when they do implement this, and you find yourself in the need to dock within the time limit but you loose a ship to it? Will you come back to the forums and say 'OMG CCP YOU F*CKED UP AGAIN!' Stop moaning about your lacks of DPS. Stop fighting outside of stations if you don't like it. It's game mechanics. Work around them. This doesn't just affect 'station huggers' it affects everyone, most in the worst ways. I.e. outposts, think about it why don't you.
PtolemaiosPlato Solomon DEFCON. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.16 00:03:00 - [65] Well, you might not like what I say, but all I see here is that your enemies just used a smart strategy. Why not to dock and repair, and continue the fight? Each of you could do the same, in a similar but opposite situation. I don't think that this is an exploit. But I understand that this angers you. I would be frustrated, too. Just remember that strategy, and adapt it accordingly. Greetings, thanks for reading, Sven Location: 18¦ 0'33.80"N - 76¦46'52.66"W - Elevation 344 ft Your sig lacks visible EVE-related content. Email us at [email protected] for more information -HornFrog
KingOzar Brute Strength THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.16 04:53:00 - [66] Edited by: KingOzar on 16/06/2008 04:53:11 Originally by: PtolemaiosPlato Solomon Well, you might not like what I say, but all I see here is that your enemies just used a smart strategy. Why not to dock and repair, and continue the fight? Each of you could do the same, in a similar but opposite situation. I don't think that this is an exploit. But I understand that this angers you. I would be frustrated, too. Just remember that strategy, and adapt it accordingly. Good point, why didn't they re-dock if they knew that guy was doing it too?
Hun Jakuza Naughty By Nature	Posted - 2008.06.17 09:31:00 - [67] Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 17/06/2008 09:33:31 Originally by: PtolemaiosPlato Solomon Well, you might not like what I say, but all I see here is that your enemies just used a smart strategy. Why not to dock and repair, and continue the fight? Each of you could do the same, in a similar but opposite situation. I don't think that this is an exploit. But I understand that this angers you. I would be frustrated, too. Just remember that strategy, and adapt it accordingly. Yes, this is not exploit, but this is a stupid thing from the CCP. Just a question for you. If someone shoot anyone or something at outside of your home and make a crime, you invite him in your house, while your guns shooting him outside ?
Jaketh Ivanes 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.06.17 10:39:00 - [68] 1: If I shoot at someone outside a station, it's ok for him to dock. Otherwise, piracy would just be to easy. So lets not change that. 2: Yes, I agree that station hugging is lame and just as lame as the old stabbed snipers (no way to catch these, so CCP hit stabs hard with the bat). So I think CCP should increase the aggression timer to 1 minute. It will not prevent people from hugging, but they have to survive a lot longer.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.17 11:31:00 - [69] Hehe, Funny thread. Sorry OP but you have shown a clear lack of understanding of PVP at stations under current mechanics, which actually work pretty well. Allowing a solo ship to engage, kill an enemy and escape is more important than allowing a blob to kill a solo ship that engages every time. This example shows current mechanics are working pretty well IMHO and you deserved to die for poor PVP skills. The part I found particularly funny was where you whine about bumping too and suggest that player/piloting skill should not be a factor compared to skillpoints! Utter tosh. What makes the game great is 3 month old players competing and winning at PVP vs 5 year vets (like you maybe) who don't know how to fight under current PVP mechanics. Coming to whine about docking being an exploit (?! LOL ?!) on the forum (and posting killmails with names in which is not allowed - yet more holes in your knowledge?) just made you look even more silly than your total failure and PVP lesson granted you by that Astarte pilot. PS - I not the trolling type, but you deserve all the stick you get for this lame attempt to get CCP to help you win fights where you're at a massive advantage already.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.06.17 12:28:00 - [70] Originally by: Sgt Blade Originally by: Anubis Xian I agree, 5 mins is good...do it for stargates too. that would be bad....assuming your running down the low sec pipe with a interceptor jsut getting past it all and not wanting a fight, say a pirate shoots you once..... your willing to sit in system for 5 minutes? If you aren't shooting at someone, why would you have a timer? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!

Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.06.17 12:32:00 - [71] Regardless of what the OP intended or why he made the topic, he is still right about station jockey fighting being a bad game mechanic. And it takes no balls to fight if you also exploit bad game design, so 5v1 isn't impressive on the part of the 1. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Scharfe Kerneisen	Posted - 2008.06.18 12:03:00 - [72] Edited by: Scharfe Kerneisen on 18/06/2008 12:06:41 Originally by: KingOzar Edited by: KingOzar on 15/06/2008 20:31:04 So what happens when they do implement this, and you find yourself in the need to dock within the time limit but you loose a ship to it? Will you come back to the forums and say 'OMG CCP YOU FCKED UP AGAIN!' Stop moaning about your lacks of DPS. Stop fighting outside of stations if you don't like it. It's game mechanics. Work around them. This doesn't just affect 'station huggers' it affects everyone, most in the worst ways. I.e. outposts, think about it why don't you. I'm sick of the game mechanics blue-balling me. It shouldn't take 20 ships to kill one! Why should you need 20 ships just to deal enough DPS to kill a single ship before it's allowed to redock? What if it's a 1v1 battle? Don't fight outside stations? 90% of the battles in Eve happen outside stations because station jockeys use the stations as their life-line! You can't fight them anywhere else, they wont go anywhere else! I'm sick and tired of people sitting outside a station smack talking, then when you go over to fight them.. you get them to start shooting at you... you bring in the blob... they start to die.. and then the dock up and start smack talking again! Why, why, why, why, why should it take more ships then one to kill one ship? I mean, sure sometimes you get in a 1v1 and you manage to kill the ship. I know it happens. Why should a guy be allowed to dock because he suddenly finds himself out numbered? You kick a bee hive you should have to deal with all the bees! Originally by:* Sgt Blade Originally by: Akirashinu station jockeys are definately cowards. lets play this game with some enthusiasm people. how can i be a coward if i was outnumbered 5 v 1 The post states that if you don't shoot anyone you should be allowed to redock. If your outnumbered 5 to one, then dock up! You shouldn't be allowed to open fire, then de-agress just because you realized opening fire was a bad idea. You got into the fight you should be forced to finish it.
Sgt Blade Save Yourself Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.18 13:31:00 - [73] i did finish the fight, by not dieing and kill my targets. and also your complaining that most of the time people don't come off the station for a fight but ill bet you that if you had some war targets 270km out off the station that you would not go and fight them without a blob so either way your going to have to blob your targets on or off the station Hypnotic Pelvic Thrusting Level 5
DutchGunner Ray of Matar Assembly	Posted - 2008.06.18 14:55:00 - [74] The 1 minute timer is perfect the way it is. Sure it can be (ab)used against you, but remember there are still plenty of players that are not afraid to pick a fight while being outnumbered. Say you hunt pirates and you find a station where they are holding up. Do you engage, get a kill and get killed in return because you couldn't kill their 10+ group that undocked, while you are able to tank them (barely) for 1 minute and be able to dock? PvP is all about strategy. There is no bigger rush and feeling of succes when you engage a larger group and get them to flee and/or die. The 1 minute timer keeps the massive blobbing limited in lowsec. Why would you move around in small gangs if you have to fight to the death when you encounter a bigger gang that starts shooting? There is a risk to engage at a station and a gate. You get sentry fire, and you never know what comes out of the station/through the gate. The 1 minute timer gives players room to recover should they make a wrong gamble/decision. HOWEVER the player is still unable to do it right away, he has to sit out the 1 minute. On a different note, undocking fully reppaired means that he used the station repair service, and that ain't cheap to use! Another important lesson is that the moment a player engages you while being outnumbered and outgunned: expect a trap or reinforcements belonging to him! You did what you could, and unfortunately, it wasn't enough. You did get a nice fight with the rush of almost killing the astarte. PvP in EvE is all about split decisions from the FC. Sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't. Each succes and defeat is a lesson, and defeats usually give you a bigger learning experience then a victory. "There is always a bigger fish" One quote that is very relevant in a lot of combat situations. Sometimes you need to cut your losses to keep it to a minimum instead of keep trying to get a kill. "You win some, you lose some" Is another one. You tried and this time it didn't work. But because he came out repaired after docking, means he either paid for the repairs or got a 2nd astarte in that station. Either way, you did cost him (some) money. Just make sure you keep your ecm away from the main fight so it can warp out, and back in and keep jamming. Getting ecm within firing range was another flaw in the fight. If your target stops shooting, hope that he forgets about his drones (alot of players do that) and kill him anyhow. With the longer agro timer you will only promote blobbing and take the motivation from ppl to fight in outnumbered situations. Quality will compensate for quite some quantity. I fought a geddon and drake at a gate, killed the drake and the geddon ran. I fought in a gang of 6 against 14 ppl at a station. They kept bringing in new ships but we killed almost everything. Even when they deagressed, we killed them before their timer of 1 minute was over. We didn't take a single loss
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.06.18 15:57:00 - [75] Originally by: Sgt Blade i did finish the fight, by not dieing and kill my targets. You not dying had nothing to do with your ability or their lack of it. Quote: and also your complaining that most of the time people don't come off the station for a fight but ill bet you that if you had some war targets 270km out off the station that you would not go and fight them without a blob Irrelevant to the topic at hand. Quote: so either way your going to have to blob your targets on or off the station Blobs exist for two reasons, the members of the blob are too scared to belong to anything less and the target of the blob demands such a response. Honestly, if you were as brave as you seem to think, you would have given them a real fight...win or lose. As it stands, you and everyone else that exploits a bad game mechanic, legit or not, are just failures at pvp. Tell me, would you have engaged that same group 5v1 if you had no place to run? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Marcus Gideon	Posted - 2008.06.18 16:12:00 - [76] Waa waa waa... Everyone here needs a straw, so they can Suck It Up and deal. I'll admit, it would make sense in a storyline fashion, for the station to refuse admittance to someone who is taking fire. They could possibly allow stray rounds into the docking bay and damage those inside. But at the same time, wouldn't you expect a proper response if you're charging at the gates to the fort yelling "Open the gates, they're right behind me!" So I think all this complaining is going to amount to another "fix" that people will whine about later on. Sure, prevent anyone from ducking back inside the station during a firefight. And while you're at it, prevent anyone from accessing the POS shield in the same instances. Now you can't run under the POS "skirts" and hide from outsiders either. If you are caught in a firefight, then you have no choice other than "kill or be killed".
Who Flung Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.06.18 17:00:00 - [77] Edited by: Who Flung on 18/06/2008 17:01:48 . Your future lies in an oblong box
Arkios Odymei Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.18 17:46:00 - [78] Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 18/06/2008 17:50:41 I know its been posted already but... Originally by: Scharfe Kerneisen Eve is designed to be character skill based, not player skill based. AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...... [gasp-gasp].... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Oh man, You really really have no clue! The fact that he engaged you with 5-to-1 odds is ballsy and imo badass on his part. The fact that you failed to kill a single ship (I dont care what ship, its still just 1) within 1 minute shows that you have no clue how to fit and operate your gang. The fact that you ALL lost your ships (even with EWAR support on your side) because this single astarte pilot had the brains, balls, PLAYER skill, and knowledge... That's what Eve is all about. Edit: Oh and if you are sick of the game "blue-balling you" because you cant kill a single ship even when outnumbering it 5 to 1, then maybe you should learn how to actualy fight instead of just BLOB. Either that or just quit already! Im happy to know that numbers still dont always dictate who wins a fight. Sadly, there are more and more people like you who will keep piling on numbers instead of having a good fight. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Eagleblade Cyberpunks	Posted - 2008.06.18 18:23:00 - [79] Yea we should definitive get something like this! 15 minute timer afther you Engage someone. This is if YOU Engage first, then you get should get an Engagement timer As well as a aggression timer. And the Global Criminal Timer should last for 20 minutes, were you cant dock up, or jump out of system. or log out. Were you cant - Log out - Dock - Use star gates You still should have Other ways to flee if you survive a battle: - Flee to your POS. - Move around like you just don't care. - cloak. CCP Suck at listening to what other people say anyway... that's how the run things. This post is just a
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.06.18 18:40:00 - [80] Originally by: Marcus Gideon Waa waa waa... Everyone here needs a straw, so they can Suck It Up and deal. I'll admit, it would make sense in a storyline fashion, for the station to refuse admittance to someone who is taking fire. They could possibly allow stray rounds into the docking bay and damage those inside. But at the same time, wouldn't you expect a proper response if you're charging at the gates to the fort yelling "Open the gates, they're right behind me!" So I think all this complaining is going to amount to another "fix" that people will whine about later on. Sure, prevent anyone from ducking back inside the station during a firefight. And while you're at it, prevent anyone from accessing the POS shield in the same instances. Now you can't run under the POS "skirts" and hide from outsiders either. If you are caught in a firefight, then you have no choice other than "kill or be killed". actually the pos being freindly should be more willing to let you in than a neutral npc station. now take standings into account? nothing more to add really just wanted to say pos shields should not be this way.

Fuengara II	Posted - 2008.06.18 19:51:00 - [81] When the time comes when we can walk around the station... you'll be able to dock after him.... meet him in the bar and slap him around some, or bounce his head off the toilet door... you know.. usual Friday night stuff.
Jarvis Hellstrom The Flying Tigers Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.06.18 19:59:00 - [82] Originally by: procurement specialist actually the pos being freindly should be more willing to let you in than a neutral npc station. now take standings into account? nothing more to add really just wanted to say pos shields should not be this way. Point one - the OP's fleet made some errors. After the first undock at full it should have been obvious that this would just happen again. Time to go. Point two - while many PvP hounds love to yammer about 'tactics' this particular tactic is abusive. In anything sensible repairs cannot be 'immediate', which makes the entire thing a bit broken. Legal? Sure, it's legal. But it's still broken. Point three - Station standings should make a big difference to station behaviour. I have 9.something ridiculous standing with Brutor Tribe. Are they going to keep me out if I want to dock regardless of who I'm shooting at or why? Of course not. Conversely, if I'm down in 0.0 flying out of a Gurista station (where I have barely positive standing and that only due to Diplomacy) they should be less accomodating. And the Amarr? With my standings? They should slam the doors and laugh real hard! It would, at least, add a more interesting RP element to the game. Kind of cool that. May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Guillame Herschel The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.06.18 20:04:00 - [83] Better idea: don't fight *****s on stations. It's a losing game every time. If he wants to stay at that station, let him. He's no threat there. When he gets bored and tries to leave, gank his ass back to his clone station. -- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then --**
Hatch Bug-Blatter Beasts of Traal	Posted - 2008.06.18 20:28:00 - [84] this is a blatent demonstration of an inability to think aboug game mechanics. next time, think about the situation and bump his ass off the station. just because you don't like the way the game works, doesn't make it an exploit. think for a change or go back to wow
Arkios Odymei Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.19 02:24:00 - [85] Originally by: Mr Eagleblade (A astarte does 928 whit max skills, and can tank 643 Multi-spectral Damage per second over a Period of 1m and 45 sec. Plenty of time to undock kill a target and dock.) you need to do about 70 000 DMG in 1 minute and 20 sec to bring it down. 1 ship equals 1166 DPS. 2 ships 650 dps 3 ships 350 dps. A cruise usualy does about 150-300 DPS.) So dont come here and sound smart, when you dont got a ****y clue about what your talking about wizeman! Basically you need a Gang that does 4000 KIN/TERM/EXPLOSIVE/EM DPS to even Brake its tank. if they do that then the ship will be down in 3 minutes and 3sec. And if they do that Amount of dmg then all ships must be able to tank 180 000 Effective dmg. 1: Aparently YOU'VE never fought a CS before as these numbers are totaly wrong. A friend an I in heavy hitting 1000 DPS BSs can take a CS down in 1 maybe 2 minutes. Where the hell are you getting your numbers? If the ships tank is 643 omni, then he is using all his lows and rigs for tank, and at most this ships DPS will be around 700 and thats including including drone dps. Omni EHP is going to sit around 50k, 66k with HG slaves. So say you want to take him down in 1 monute: 50k EHP divided by 60 seconds = 833 DPS 66k EHP divided by 60 seconds = 1100 DPS Add this to his Tank to find out how much damage you need to Kill him in 1 minute... Normal Astarte: 1476 DPS total for 1 minute Slaved Astarte: 1743 DPS total for 1 minute Now at 700 DPS, in 1 minute, the Astarte will deal about (700 x 60 =) 42k damage. Tough for a cruiser, but this shouldnt be a problem. See #2 & #3 I say again, I really dont know where the hell you are getting your numbers from lol 2: If you have ECM suport, a good portion of the Astarts DPS is nullified. A single Dedicated jamming ship should have no trouble keeping a Single target near perma-jammed, especialy if you know what ship he is and and what racial jammers to fit. Also, ECM doesnt need to be on top of the fight. Keep it a fair bit off so it wont get "primaried" by the lone astarte. 3: Having 4000 DPS in a 5 man gang isnt too hard, Unless you can not manage bring BSs or CSs. I'll concede this point to you. 4: Assuming you can have him keep agro, If one of your ships starts taking damage have him deagress and dock, while the rest pound on the Astarte. Assuming your ECM ship is doing what they are suposed to, Even a cruiser should be able to survive. Keep cycling them in and out as you do have the numbers advantage. In conclusion, Worst case scenario is that The gang may not have been able to kill the Astarte, but they sure as hell should have taken NO losses if they knew what they were doing.You also seem to think that CSs are some kind of mythinal ship that is superior to everything else! Guess what... THEY ARENT. They die just like everything else, and too tell you the truth, I would much prefer being in a Battleship than a command ship if I were in a straight up fight. BSs tank harder and do more damage, mate, You are ignorant if you think otherwise. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.06.19 04:16:00 - [86] I think you are too focused on the OP's actual scenario. Tanking a small gang for 60 seconds or so is not that hard for quite a few ships. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Galan Amarias The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2008.06.19 06:08:00 - [87] Originally by: Anubis Xian I think you are too focused on the OP's actual scenario. Tanking a small gang for 60 seconds or so is not that hard for quite a few ships. Tanking your average batch of noobs is not "that hard" for several ships. The ones that aren't capitols are all Battleships and command ships, or nanoed and free to manuver. However add even 1 serious DPS BS and any one (non-capitol) ship against 5 (especially with ECM support) will be lucky to last 30-50 secconds. If only 3 of the 5 are serious DPS BC the defending ship is looking at 1500+dps. If 2 of the 5 are serious BS then you need to tank 2000dps or more. So while lots of us agree that docing out of a fight is a bit lame, we also agree that fighting on stations is stupid because you have to expect them to dock. Reguardless this level of fail at 5 to 1 odds just paints the op as a whiny noob. Hence the flame. -Galan The answer to empire ganking
Paradoxataur	Posted - 2008.06.19 06:14:00 - [88] The Mechanics are the way they are. The most likely solution I see here to any sort of problem is to enforce the dock session timer, that is, not letting one dock, and instantly undock. Scharfe's fleet would have had some time to de-aggress and dock once engaged once more. The problem is that the ship was able to dock, repair, and undock, not that the ship got away, but that it was able to gain an upper-hand by manipulating some mechanics in a way that they were not meant to be. Just like a star gate, you can't jump out, MWD back to the gate, and jump back unless your session timer is up. Perhaps the docking session timer should be 60 seconds and that would fix the problem? As for increasing the aggro timers, that simply doesn't work. While Eve is a game designed to be played, it also needs to let players decide how they want to play it, and an engagement timer is just plain stupid, and geared towards carebears.
Thunderbird Anthares Crimson Star Empire CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.06.19 08:43:00 - [89] while i hate when people dock to hide,even if they sometimes have an advantage,to hide.... the day this will happen, i think im going to delete my character and go play chess or solitaire ------------------------------------------------ When you get to the end of your journey,everything that really matters is the journey itself.
Femaref Armageddon Day	Posted - 2008.06.19 10:05:00 - [90] Quote: The most likely solution I see here to any sort of problem is to enforce the dock session timer, that is, not letting one dock, and instantly undock. Already there, 30 sec session change timer. add another 30 sec if you wanna switch ship.



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