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Neutrino Sunset
KDM Corp
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2008.06.30 16:49:00 -
[451]
Edited by: Neutrino Sunset on 30/06/2008 16:49:49
Returning to a point To Mare made earlier about how hit and run with an arty plaform was hampered by crap tracking, how about a boost to AC optimal, and a boost to Arty tracking and alpha? That would sit very nicely with me and doesn't seem too much to ask considering the current situation.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.30 17:13:00 -
[452]
 Originally by: Boz Well
I would guess that a minimal request (and imho a balanced one) is more likely to get attention from CCP than than if we ask to retain all our advantages, deal more DPS than amarr and also get a range boost.
Just to provide a counter-example: Amarrians threw about the most absurd ideas before they finally got their boost. And now look at them, Amarr's the new FOTM.
If I have to bet, a well reasoned case won't make as much difference as drama queening it.
-Liang |
To mare
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Posted - 2008.06.30 17:34:00 -
[453]
if you boost the optimal of AC u will have a weak copy of laser but as a weak copy it dont shine in anything.
about boosting alpha AND tracking of arty is no possible CCP intentionally nerfed tracking to dont allow arty hit small things.
abut increasing alpha or you increase it alot to make it worthwile or 25% make close to nothing. a +25% dmg mod can be good if you dont touch the rof |
Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.06.30 17:40:00 -
[454]
Originally by: To mare
if you boost the optimal of AC u will have a weak copy of laser but as a weak copy it dont shine in anything.
about boosting alpha AND tracking of arty is no possible CCP intentionally nerfed tracking to dont allow arty hit small things.
abut increasing alpha or you increase it alot to make it worthwile or 25% make close to nothing. a +25% dmg mod can be good if you dont touch the rof
A copy of a laser, except lasers use lots of cap, lasers are harder to fit, lasers have worse tracking, projectiles have superior falloff and projectiles have to reload. So basically your point is it's a copy of lasers because what, they both have range longer than blasters? My turn to  .
If you were advocating higher DPS than lasers while at the same time making projectiles use cap again, then fine, I'd be on board. But it's silly to ask for higher DPS while retaining all our advantages. |
To mare
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Posted - 2008.06.30 17:53:00 -
[455]
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: To mare
if you boost the optimal of AC u will have a weak copy of laser but as a weak copy it dont shine in anything.
about boosting alpha AND tracking of arty is no possible CCP intentionally nerfed tracking to dont allow arty hit small things.
abut increasing alpha or you increase it alot to make it worthwile or 25% make close to nothing. a +25% dmg mod can be good if you dont touch the rof
A copy of a laser, except lasers use lots of cap, lasers are harder to fit, lasers have worse tracking, projectiles have superior falloff and projectiles have to reload. So basically your point is it's a copy of lasers because what, they both have range longer than blasters? My turn to .
If you were advocating higher DPS than lasers while at the same time making projectiles use cap again, then fine, I'd be on board. But it's silly to ask for higher DPS while retaining all our advantages.
my point is to get a weapon that dont sux even if you give a optimal bonus to AC they still sux.
fitting isnt a issue as module are balanced on the ships where they are supposed to go(if you look at the fitting 1400mm should be better or equal than megabeams).
cap usage its just racial flavor, minmatar BS have worst capacitor of ships that use cap to fire, and as i pointed out many times before why torp can push out a lot of dmg with a real dmg selection and no cap?
ah and for what you need all the capacitor you dont use for? |
Nethras
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.06.30 19:18:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Boz Well
I don't think the bonuses ACs have should be completely dismissed though. Yes, in pure dps, we still lose out. But we still have great tracking.
Fixed.
ACs have good tracking, arty tracking kinda sucks - and a weapon with poor tracking and designed with the falloff being a decent part of it's range = sucky weapon  . As for a buff... If turret disruptors get to affect falloff as well as optimal... do the same for tracking enhancers and tracking comps at the very least, would be an interesting boost to ACs and arty if not great - a revamp of falloff damage would help both projectile types. Artillery probably need something more.
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.06.30 19:22:00 -
[457]
Woops, ya I did mean autocannons. Artillery is an entirely seperate beast, haha, and the simple optimal boost we've been talking about is only meant for auto's.
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Blind Jhon
Amarr
Alenia psy departement
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Posted - 2008.06.30 21:00:00 -
[458]
Edited by: Blind Jhon on 30/06/2008 21:01:26
Originally by: Nethras
....
ACs have good tracking, arty tracking kinda sucks - and a weapon with poor tracking and designed with the falloff being a decent part of it's range = sucky weapon . As for a buff... If turret disruptors get to affect falloff as well as optimal... do the same for tracking enhancers and tracking comps at the very least, would be an interesting boost to ACs and arty if not great - a revamp of falloff damage would help both projectile types. Artillery probably need something more.
while appreciating the idea....
guess that's best way to kill 2 of our "versatility" slots, and have a sub-PAPERFIX
your 650mmII autocannon perfectly turn of wreking your untanked minmatar ship |
Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2008.07.01 04:49:00 -
[459]
Or we could just boost the artillery falloff by a massive percent and become the true falloff kings. |
Jalif
Deviance Inc
Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.01 09:28:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Nian Banks
Or we could just boost the artillery falloff by a massive percent and become the true falloff kings.
I'm up for that, but only if we get the tracking enhancers & tracking computers icrease falloff too... |
deadmeet
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Posted - 2008.07.01 10:53:00 -
[461]
If I follow some opinions about tracking and damage...
AC : better tracking, so lowest DPS... seems reasonable for some people.
Put the concept for artillery so :
Arty : lowest tracking, so highest DPS ? => false, it's the lowest too...
I would add that you can improve Arty and AC dps and stay below laser or blaster DPS, there is a hole between them... you can just reduce this hole...
And what about missiles ? Why missiles could bring together, range, dps and no cap so ?
ATM : Minmatar BS, AC and Artys need something.. don't know why, it's not my job to know why, I'm just here to see there there is something wrong... |
Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.07.01 15:30:00 -
[462]
I agree we could get a slight DPS boost to auto's in addition to an optimal boost and still be under the DPS of lasers and definitely blasters. I'm just not so sure we should out-dps lasers at close range, considering all the benefits auto's get that lasers don't get (and I understand that our ships have lower fittings/less cap/etc. to make up for it). Still, the benefits are there on the weapons, and so I think they need to be given some weight.
I'm really not against a DPS boost for auto's, I have a maxxed out gunnery/bs/support Matar char just waiting to be useful  I just am trying to refrain from asking for 'too much' in this thread. In the real world, asking for more than you're entitled to does nothing more than diminish your credibility. Then again though, in the world of interweb gaming, maybe Liang's right and we should just ask for the world and ask loudly. 
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Blind Jhon
Amarr
Alenia psy departement
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Posted - 2008.07.01 16:16:00 -
[463]
To sum up: me, as a minmatar, am supposed to arrive on battlefield and
1) stay in falloff (doing half my dps) taking damage from lasers, and waiting for some mwdOVERHEATED mega faster than me, hoping jesus it'self come to benedict my armor
2) approach the laser ship taking all it's damage till i arrive 2000 meters emp-barrage range (now i'm half armor) and now i can use all my glittering nocap traking monster ac whit "uber" explosive ammo and melt the enemy's SHIELD, buffertankedARMOR, suitcasedHULL. and while i do this i'm still waiting jesus help me tanking whit holy armor.
Now
If you speak in terms of fitting, do you realize every single amar battleships have more pg than minmatar ones?
do all you realize armageddon has more pg and same cpu than tempest?
And about capacitor laser yes they need it, but (fitting a capacitor boostr that everyone does) it is only an abaddon a problem, but it's the abaddon the issue not the lasers requirements!
(if i remeber well ccp admit in some fanfest that abaddon have cap some problems)
And better traking, i'll never be tired repeating this, is there to balance the lowest optimal.
Conclusion: i'm convinced that from 0 meter up to theyr optimal AC (abot 50 should at least do the very same laser's dps,
Forgive me if i am rought, but i think that who says this should never happen, suffer the jojo-mojo illnes "noone should be able to equal my race"...
it's wonderful using no cap and have beter traking isn't it?
your 650mmII autocannon perfectly turn of wreking your untanked minmatar ship |
Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.07.01 16:52:00 -
[464]
Quote:
and I understand that our ships have lower fittings/less cap/etc. to make up for it
As I tried to indicate, heh, I understand the arguments why these bonuses to auto's aren't in practice the most useful bonuses. They're still bonuses though, and so you have to account for them. If projectiles were changed back to requiring cap to fire them, then I'd be all for boosting the damage to surpass lasers in autocannon optimal. And regarding
Quote:
Forgive me if i am rought, but i think that who says this should never happen
If you actually read my posts, I've never said this should never happen. In fact, I'd love it to happen. I just said that from a persuasion perspective, I think it might be asking a bit too much to ask for an optimal boost, a DPS boost, and to retain all our advantages (regardless whether they're significant advantages in practice).
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.01 19:42:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote:
but AC shoud have more dps than laser at short range
Absolutely not. AC's use no cap, and thus should have less DPS than the other turret short range options.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yes I agree we should have less DPS, but "no cap" isn't the reason why. It is NOT a giant advantage. It is NOT a good reason for us to have a large, LARGE percent less DPS than other turrets. Especially in the passive tank era, cap usage means just about nothing for ACs. Maybe you should read this thread before commenting. I would gladly, gladly trade some cap usage for a DPS between blasters and lasers. But this is unreasonable and makes ACs vanilla.
Your logic is flawed, and please, for the love of god, use large projectiles before commenting on them.
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Trojanman190
D00M.
The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.01 20:36:00 -
[466]
CCP should have a roleplay event... suddenly a minmatar scientist figures out that he can make acs do more damage if they draw cap from the capacitor...
I honoestly would not mind if my guns took cap. I can't remember that last time I flew without a cap injector and if my guns taking cap will give me an optimal boost or a falloff boost or a dps boost or any kind of boost, I'll take it.
When you run out of cap boosters you die. Lasers, Blasters, AC, Missiles, battleship pvp setups pretty much require those things (unless in fleet) and when you run out all races have the same result. With a minmatar battleship or a caldari battleship they just get to do about 20 seconds more dps before they get sploded. This may really really help in a small gang or 1v1 fight but in today's huge battles the capless guns really aren't a big deal. Its a little gimmick that is hardly noticable in real combat.
I'm not asking for more raw dps than blasters or lasers. If our guns take no cap their needs to be a pentalty the the lowest dps should probably be it. I am asking for our guns to have an advantage of the short short short range weapon (blasters) at a certain range. Say 15km - 20km and then out to about 40km have similar but noticably lower dps than lasers. I think that would be fair for our lack of cap.
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To mare
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Posted - 2008.07.02 08:02:00 -
[467]
projectile dont sux because they use no cap.
projectile sux because they are intended to sux in almost everything that wasnt they old role.
arty role was to end the battle before it even start and that was good but nerfs to tracking, stacking penality on dmg mods and the most important HP buff screwed they ONLY role (side note: abbaddon with tachyon have more alpha and thats just stupid).
ACs role was to dish out a decent (see subpar) dps at a decent range while the versatility of our ships could hold the enemy back (old nos, old ecm) and this was good, but the game evolved now nos is almost useless, ecm are good only on bonused ships, active tanking lost all his old fashion because passive tanking with buffed plates/extender and defensive rigs its just much better in almost any situation.
the minmatar bs in the old times was fun to pvp because the pilot needed a brain to win if the pilot had the brain he could use the strong point of his ship to make up for the weakness, but now BS pvp have no more space for thinking pilot its just a matter of Xdps/Yehp ship VS Zdps/Kehp othership, who have more win. range still matter but only if is big enough, the 13-15km that minmatar BS was used to hold in the old days now count less than nothing when heated mid can close the gap, 30-40km can still do the job. short story AC where viable when other things on the same ship could make up for theyr lackness.
EVE has evolved during this 5 years but while the other races had the way to adapt, a good chunk of the minmatar line up has been stuck in the past.
the other races copied our strong points and they become good as us and sometime even better (see nano cruiser/frigate), but minmatar dont have a way to copy other races style(big tank, big gank) and be effective with that.
atm when you undock with something minmatar bigger than a BC its like if you go to a actual war with a sword (or a crossbow if you are lucky) VS people with guns.
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Blind Jhon
Amarr
Alenia psy departement
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Posted - 2008.07.02 08:10:00 -
[468]
Edited by: Blind Jhon on 02/07/2008 08:13:47
edit: ^^ to mare ^^ have my same idea in a very better way
gj m8 
in my opinion the problem is not only they use no cap so the are behind others.
they are all roud old. they sited in some ways in old mechanig (red moon raise? genesis? revelationI? i guess yet no more revII), but now....
the entire mechanics
we have fastest ship  better traking
short range big fallof ("half" dps)
no cap need low damage mod
low fitting req. nothing change between d425 and 800!
in my opinion we should enlarge the comparison to others average, and rebalance something.
penalities > bonuses
should be
penalities = bosuses ?
your 650mmII autocannon perfectly turn of wreking your untanked minmatar ship |
Jalif
Deviance Inc
Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.02 08:50:00 -
[469]
Originally by: To mare
EVE has evolved during this 5 years but while the other races had the way to adapt, a good chunk of the minmatar line up has been stuck in the past.
the other races copied our strong points and they become good as us and sometime even better (see nano cruiser/frigate), but minmatar dont have a way to copy other races style(big tank, big gank) and be effective with that.
atm when you undock with something minmatar bigger than a BC its like if you go to a actual war with a sword (or a crossbow if you are lucky) VS people with guns.
QFT....
************ BOOST MINMATAR!!! ************ |
Siddy
Minmatar
Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake
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Posted - 2008.07.02 09:36:00 -
[470]
Originally by: Jalif
Originally by: To mare
EVE has evolved during this 5 years but while the other races had the way to adapt, a good chunk of the minmatar line up has been stuck in the past.
the other races copied our strong points and they become good as us and sometime even better (see nano cruiser/frigate), but minmatar dont have a way to copy other races style(big tank, big gank) and be effective with that.
atm when you undock with something minmatar bigger than a BC its like if you go to a actual war with a sword (or a crossbow if you are lucky) VS people with guns.
QFT....
nonot realy, minmatars had they share of love.
The 800mm AC buff, 1400mm buffs and other gimmics.
Thing is, the were few major nerfs in sucsessions (Noss nerf, HP buff, stacknerf) that meganerffed the Minmatar Big ships.
While the smaller class culd adapt due to speedtankking and benefits of new HP buffer, big ships were left with virtualy nothing.
And dont bring typhoon here, it dont use any native minmatar playstyle or wepons. Its abbomination mix of raven and nossdomi.
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To mare
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Posted - 2008.07.02 10:06:00 -
[471]
typhoon is the only minmatar BS who has been able to adapt to the current flow of the game.
indeed is the only one who dont sux much.
tempest and maelstrom needs love, give some love to projectile and at the same time you give some love to those 2 ships.
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TheEndofTheWorld
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.02 10:35:00 -
[472]
What is so bad about maelstorm? 800mm t2 or 1400mm t2 fits perfom fine compared to other BSes. Maybe artillery has a bit too low optimal/ammo hold, but otherwise they are fine.
anyone? (PS I didn't read the whole thread)
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Siddy
Minmatar
Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake
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Posted - 2008.07.02 10:52:00 -
[473]
Originally by: To mare
typhoon is the only minmatar BS who has been able to adapt to the current flow of the game.
indeed is the only one who dont sux much.
tempest and maelstrom needs love, give some love to projectile and at the same time you give some love to those 2 ships.
Typhoon is not bound to use minmatar primary weponsystem.
it uses drones, torps and have lots of hull.
Its perfeckt nanofa***y ship
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Jalif
Deviance Inc
Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.02 10:52:00 -
[474]
Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld
What is so bad about maelstorm? 800mm t2 or 1400mm t2 fits perfom fine compared to other BSes. Maybe artillery has a bit too low optimal/ammo hold, but otherwise they are fine.
anyone? (PS I didn't read the whole thread)
Then I suggest you read the whole tread my friend :)
************ BOOST MINMATAR!!! ************ |
To mare
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Posted - 2008.07.02 11:18:00 -
[475]
Originally by: Siddy
Typhoon is not bound to use minmatar primary weponsystem.
thats why its good
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deadmeet
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Posted - 2008.07.02 12:02:00 -
[476]
Originally by: To mare
projectile dont sux because they use no cap.
projectile sux because they are intended to sux in almost everything that wasnt they old role.
arty role was to end the battle before it even start and that was good but nerfs to tracking, stacking penality on dmg mods and the most important HP buff screwed they ONLY role (side note: abbaddon with tachyon have more alpha and thats just stupid).
ACs role was to dish out a decent (see subpar) dps at a decent range while the versatility of our ships could hold the enemy back (old nos, old ecm) and this was good, but the game evolved now nos is almost useless, ecm are good only on bonused ships, active tanking lost all his old fashion because passive tanking with buffed plates/extender and defensive rigs its just much better in almost any situation.
the minmatar bs in the old times was fun to pvp because the pilot needed a brain to win if the pilot had the brain he could use the strong point of his ship to make up for the weakness, but now BS pvp have no more space for thinking pilot its just a matter of Xdps/Yehp ship VS Zdps/Kehp othership, who have more win. range still matter but only if is big enough, the 13-15km that minmatar BS was used to hold in the old days now count less than nothing when heated mid can close the gap, 30-40km can still do the job. short story AC where viable when other things on the same ship could make up for theyr lackness.
EVE has evolved during this 5 years but while the other races had the way to adapt, a good chunk of the minmatar line up has been stuck in the past.
the other races copied our strong points and they become good as us and sometime even better (see nano cruiser/frigate), but minmatar dont have a way to copy other races style(big tank, big gank) and be effective with that.
atm when you undock with something minmatar bigger than a BC its like if you go to a actual war with a sword (or a crossbow if you are lucky) VS people with guns.
Completely agree with that post and with mare opinion in general. The post are well written and give a very good explanation of the problem. Instead of comparing Maximum EFT OMG maelstrom 1100 DPS with only 5 gyros..... listen to her...
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Blind Jhon
Amarr
Alenia psy departement
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Posted - 2008.07.02 16:43:00 -
[477]
the problem is not how much dps can we do....
... but the huge black hole between us and the other's dozillions of dps
if you add at this the no more versatile versatility, and crap tank you have a minmatar battleship
so apart from eft shocks...
what's the way? we need more tank?, we need more versatility? we need more raw dps?
from the very beginning i say "tempest need one extra low slot"
so we can do about everything whit it, just depend how we want to fill this slot.... gyrostab, armor rep, traking modules........
but this will fix only the tempest, the fact is that
artys after alfa nerf.... are a bit useless.... sub traking, optimal and very very hight ROF
AC high rof, flimsy optimal, and low damage mod (so fight in fallof strike harder our max dps).
i think it clear thet my idea is go straight whit a damage output increase to large projectile by adding 4 raw damage to emp, and decrease 20%rof to all large projectile turret remeber we are the hit and run race we must deal as much damage as possible in
SHORTER TIME.....
(and ADD a low slot at tempest. which would be a low utility slot, use it as you wish....)
your 650mmII autocannon perfectly turn of wreking your untanked minmatar ship |
Trojanman190
D00M.
The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.07.02 16:46:00 -
[478]
I'm not sure where the maelstrom agruement came from, we have been trying to stay away from that type of stuff.
Our general point is, as a bunch of us have been saying, eve has changed greatly and left the minmatar battleship class behind. The situations where we were good don't occur anymore and the mods we fit in those situations don't exist the way they used to. The end result is that we are falling back on weapon systems that were designed around mods and situations that no longer exist. In effect, our bs line up is outdated.
As was sed previously, the only reason the typhoon is still good is because it has no need for minmatar weapons. Nos, Cruise, Torps, Drones, enough lows to sport a good tank... its not the best at anything but has survived the changes since it has no reliance on ac or arty.
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Atlanticpyro
The Space BorderLine
Diabolic Paradox
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Posted - 2008.07.02 17:22:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Trojanman190
I'm not sure where the maelstrom agruement came from, we have been trying to stay away from that type of stuff.
Our general point is, as a bunch of us have been saying, eve has changed greatly and left the minmatar battleship class behind. The situations where we were good don't occur anymore and the mods we fit in those situations don't exist the way they used to. The end result is that we are falling back on weapon systems that were designed around mods and situations that no longer exist. In effect, our bs line up is outdated.
As was sed previously, the only reason the typhoon is still good is because it has no need for minmatar weapons. Nos, Cruise, Torps, Drones, enough lows to sport a good tank... its not the best at anything but has survived the changes since it has no reliance on ac or arty.
/signed....again
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Siddy
Minmatar
Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake
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Posted - 2008.07.02 18:45:00 -
[480]
Edited by: Siddy on 02/07/2008 18:51:05
i know, add minmatar battleships natural WCS
it dont penalize it anway.
Typhoon gets +1
Tempest gets +2
maelstrom gts +3
Now we can use em for soloroaming and get out if risked being gankked.
problem solved, everyone happy, burn eden starts train minmatar.
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