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Blind Jhon
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Posted - 2008.06.19 19:35:00 -
[31]
Quote:
What you're missing is that the Tempest has an exceedingly narrow role in combat... there's really not any good reasons to use it (unless you have NO missile/drone skills, good gunnery skills, and you're suicidal enough to try and nano a turret based battleship).
What does the Tempest have for it? Two utility mids that can be used for RR or Neuts, and a bit of speed. Does this make up for the huge variety of situations that it sucks in? No, not really.
-Liang
liang you are in right but, do you understand thet the only way to have a "decent" tank on a tempest whitout say goodby to your damage is a shield tank (whit two co-processor II btw) which half wreack tempest versatility?
yes it's versatility is mostly in the 2 high (used whit missile if you want damage) slot and in the extra 2 midlot but if you shield tank....
a torp raven to increase damage have not to sacrify the 2 hight slot (or i'm wrong?) same for a mega in it's spare last hight slot can fit whatever he want (or i'm wrong again??)
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Rane Javoke
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.06.19 19:39:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Rane Javoke on 19/06/2008 19:39:21
just an idea i had in class an hour ago (not paying attention ftw) :
Hypothetical new tempest :
slots as they are
~+5% pg (for fitting 6 1400 without RCU) Bonuses : +7.5% large projectile damage, 5% optimal range
voila, it gets the role it was supposed to have: "a versatile gunship proficient at long range bombardment using specialized ammo" Alpha strikes will hurt more, clips won't go "click click" every minute, and it will have more slots free for tank(in place of the RCU/ tracking enh. Downside is, it loses any close range gank potential, but at least it will be good for something.
the typhoon will keep the gank role, and the Mael will keep whatever role it is supposed to have.
Stuff off the top of my head
edit: page 2 snypah (sorry i just wanted to say this... once)
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Bootleg Greg
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Posted - 2008.06.19 19:41:00 -
[33]
Minmatar is probably the high-difficulty of Eve. If you struggle fitting/flying the ship, you may want to either fly with a gang or get more experience in the game with another race, Gallante/Caldari. Amarr is probably Extreme-difficulty, lol. In my opinion, the Tempest is a good ship. I haven't had a lot of encounters in it, so feel free to call me out. The usual cookie cutter dual LAR/ dual NEUT / dual Injector(sometimes) is sufficient. It is a versatile ship, the fact the guns do not use any energy and track rather well makes it so. The extra energy also helps with the NEUTS. But I also have about maxed skills in Minmatar and have been playing the game for about 4 years. As the game states, my gaming experience may differ.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2008.06.19 19:42:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Rane Javoke
Hypothetical new tempest :
slots as they are
~+5% pg (for fitting 6 1400 without RCU) Bonuses : +7.5% large projectile damage, 5% optimal range
This would obsolete it as a closerange blasterboat. Better give it 10% to optimal range on top of 7.5% ROF and a speed and agility increase, and improve the tracking of large AC in general. Voila, medium-range medium damage fastmoving BS. Sounds minmatar enough to you?
I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them. |
Rane Javoke
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.06.19 19:47:00 -
[35]
That's actually a good idea Sokratesz. Maybe make the Mael the sniper then, switching tha rof bonus for damage.. Alphas will be sick
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2008.06.19 19:52:00 -
[36]
err edited some bits i made two huge typos
I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them. |
AstroPhobic
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Posted - 2008.06.19 20:05:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 19/06/2008 19:51:20
Originally by: Rane Javoke
Hypothetical new tempest :
slots as they are
~+5% pg (for fitting 6 1400 without RCU) Bonuses : +7.5% large projectile damage, 5% optimal range
This would obsolete it as a closerange ACboat. Better give it 10% to faloff on top of 7.5% ROF and a speed and agility increase, and improve the tracking of large AC in general. Voila, medium-range medium damage fastmoving BS. Sounds minmatar enough to you?
Weeeeel, this is the part where having the maelstrom makes buffing the tempest hard. The maelstrom is favorable in small gangs due to the large tank and highs full of ACs, whereas I don't think it was intended to be a fleet sniper (Boost amount bonus). If you can somehow reinforce the tempest as a fleet sniper, I think you solved "it", whatever "it" is. However taking away the ROF or Damage bonus makes the DPS even more pathetic, which makes the tempest a compound problem. It's outdone by the maelstrom at close range, and the long range weapon system is beyond pathetic. Which means you would need to buff artillery, then mold the tempest to be an arty boat, to buff it. IMO.
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Rane Javoke
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.06.19 20:24:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Rane Javoke on 19/06/2008 20:28:59
Originally by: AstroPhobic
I don't think it was intended to be a fleet sniper
the apoc was not intended to be the fleet sniper. The sacrilege wasn't intended to be a short range assault missile nanoboat. A small change to bring purpose in a couple o matar ships isn't too much of a deal.
Originally by: AstroPhobic
whatever "it" is
"it" being the lack of a purpose for the tempest (and mael maybe).
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Which means you would need to buff artillery, then mold the tempest to be an arty boat, to buff it
Maybe. Sounds solid enough, although personally I like Socratesz's idea more tbh Anyway, i think I'll take any boost no matter how minor without complaint.
edit: in my short 0.0 experience I've seen to my disappointment no-one likes the mael. It's too small for small fast gangs, too expensive for fleetfights and tanks in shield, which is not convenient in fleets as well.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2008.06.19 20:40:00 -
[39]
The ROF and faloff bonsues i proposed would make it best suited as a midrange AC boat (duh), and although the dps is a tad low this can be solved by a 7th turret.
I refuse to respect religious beliefs, and i refuse to respect people who hold them. |
Blind Jhon
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Posted - 2008.06.19 20:41:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Blind Jhon on 19/06/2008 20:43:04
one more low slot and +10%cpu no eh? too difficult??
why change everything? it scream for an AC fit for me....
Quote: The ROF and faloff bonsues i proposed would make it best suited as a midrange AC boat (duh), and although the dps is a tad low this can be solved by a 7th turret.
mmmmmmm 7th turret
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Veryez
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Posted - 2008.06.19 20:55:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Veryez on 19/06/2008 20:55:43 The biggest problem with the Tempest is that whatever role you use it for, other Minmatar Battleships do better. Close range gank - use a phoon, Heavy tank - use a mael, Art Boat - mael again. Probably the only role it beats other Minmatar battleships at is spider tanking - and even there it's gimped by it's small cap. The ship needs a role, period.
You want an Art boat, swap the mids and lows, give it a 7th gun, and make it's bonuses 7.5% damage per level, 10% optimal. Or for AC flavor give it bigger drone bay and bandwidth - but not as much as the phoon, a 7th gun and make it's bonuses 7.5% ROF and 7.5% falloff, and boost it's agility to match that of a phoon. As it is now it's just meh. Almost a shame my last one escaped a few days ago w/40% hull - it won't be replaced.
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AstroPhobic
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Posted - 2008.06.19 20:57:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Rane Javoke Edited by: Rane Javoke on 19/06/2008 20:28:59
Originally by: AstroPhobic
I don't think it was intended to be a fleet sniper
the apoc was not intended to be the fleet sniper. The sacrilege wasn't intended to be a short range assault missile nanoboat. A small change to bring purpose in a couple o matar ships isn't too much of a deal.
Originally by: AstroPhobic
whatever "it" is
"it" being the lack of a purpose for the tempest (and mael maybe).
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Which means you would need to buff artillery, then mold the tempest to be an arty boat, to buff it
Maybe. Sounds solid enough, although personally I like Socratesz's idea more tbh Anyway, i think I'll take any boost no matter how minor without complaint.
edit: in my short 0.0 experience I've seen to my disappointment no-one likes the mael. It's too small for small fast gangs, too expensive for fleetfights and tanks in shield, which is not convenient in fleets as well.
I was just going by the bonuses. There's no fleet ships that have active tanking bonuses. See Hyperion vs Megathron in this regard. However it seems that the apoc is indeed intended to be a fleet sniper with it's sexy optimal bonus. I don't really care one way or the other as long as the tempest gets reasonably fixed and we have some sort of manageable artillery platform. The Maelstrom doesn't cater to it, but if the tempest gets it's respective fix and artillery gets some sort of boost then whatever.
PS: Switch the shield and armor HP on the phoon...
<3 Astro
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Kagura Nikon
Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.19 21:22:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Rane Javoke Edited by: Rane Javoke on 19/06/2008 14:57:45 don't forget to factor in better speed, agility, range (due to barrage), selectable damage and capless guns. it's tank is sub par though, given the slot layout, but it stays true with minmatar philosophy (in that it's mediocre and versatile). plus, you can fit and permarun double reppers if you reaaaaally want to without gimping it too much. still, it will be no match for other tanked BSes, but hey, name one minmatar ship that tanks well (-maelstorm).
gank-wise, you just have to outmaneuver or out-e-war your opponent. So yeah its not as impressive in the "mwd-on, approach in point blank range, melt with blasters" game, but it can stay out of falloff range (say, vs a mega) while pelting it with AC shells and heavy neut blasts. it just takes lots of skills, both in and out of game.
on another note, because i too love the tempest, it should get some lovin' (a tad more speed, pg/cpu, boost of artillery aplha.. whatever), because atm it fails as a long range sniper, and it's merely competent solo.
at least thats my opinion :)
edit: ninja grammar and syntax corrections :P
problem is these tatics were demolished by the advent of overheating. Your speed advantage measn nothing. Because when you are in middle of an MWD pulse, the hostile mga overheat its MWD get 50% extra thrust. Will be way faster then you . And you cannto activate your overheat until your cycle is ended.
The kite tactics were completely neutralized by the advent of overheating. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Siddy
Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake
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Posted - 2008.06.19 21:41:00 -
[44]
Tempest's problems right now are
Longrange Lack of damage in long range combat to everything else in same cost class Lack of staying power in long range fights, you can buffer tank everything else much beter.
Shortrange Lack of DPS Lack of slots/HP for passive tank sup par state of active tankking with 6 lows or 5 meds. Speed and mass is not small enought to nanofit, also, large AC's + nanos = FAILBOAT!!!
Tempest's closest ship in characteristics is megathron, and it outclasses tempest in every way right now. There is absolutly no reason to use Tempest over megatron in any situation.
Also, apoch outpreforms tempest in longrange and now, in short range wepons, WTF?
Only thing tempest beats is raven in +150km fleet fight. ------------- T'ey see me t'Rollin, t'ey hatin, pa'trolli. T'ey trying catch me writing dirty... |
Blind Jhon
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Posted - 2008.06.19 21:46:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
problem is these tatics were demolished by the advent of overheating. Your speed advantage measn nothing. Because when you are in middle of an MWD pulse, the hostile mga overheat its MWD get 50% extra thrust. Will be way faster then you . And you cannto activate your overheat until your cycle is ended.
The kite tactics were completely neutralized by the advent of overheating.
not only. you have to note that tempest beeing so versatile was affected much or less, by all various nerf: staking penality, ecm nerf, drone nerf, nos nerf bla bla bla.....
it was great when tank was armor rep 3*hardner+damage control... now whit the fashion of buffer tank (i know it's really good) and the great usage of MWD(i know this is even more good) tempes became a bit... subpar
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arbalesttom
Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.19 22:16:00 -
[46]
Both, please! ***Sig***
Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
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ILikeTastyPie
Digital assassins
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Posted - 2008.06.19 22:19:00 -
[47]
The thing is that with the tempest, a 7th turret slot will make it just like a megathron, but still not good. And a 7th low will make it a better tanker, but still not as good as the other races equivalents. These boosts would make it similar to other races ships, but still worse. It needs something different, which is hard to do with the game mechanics as they are.
The thing is with the tempest is that it was never that good, its just in balance with the game it took advantage of powerful mechanics. The norm tempest setup had 2 heavy nos on and an ecm. It still had the sub-par dps and tank, but the nos fed it cap for its rep and killed the other bs, and the ecm got an occasional jam where the tempest could catch, rep and still hit. Since these things have been changed, it shows its weakneses. This is why instead of the 7th gun or 7th low slot changes which would make it still crappy and even more boring, to give it a more dynamic boost. Maybe a bonus to nos or neuts, or a bonus which allowed more damage in falloff and speed boost. Something that would make it worth flying again in relation to other races battleships, but still making it unique, making it a tempest.
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Blind Jhon
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Posted - 2008.06.19 22:31:00 -
[48]
the twenty rule!
20% buff to agility, mass reduction and velocity.
a little buff to cpu too :)
if i must speak out the truth... my personally and soggettive DREAM is a role bonus.....
100%afterburner bonus .... but completely out the game mecanics....
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Jalif
Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.19 22:40:00 -
[49]
About making it a AC or Arty Boat... oway!. Every single BS can be made close range or short range. So don't just focus it just on one thing.
How much we try. We will never get that setup that everybody will be happy with. Why don't we just sign for that the tempest needs to be changed. Just collect a lot of "/signed" & show CCP or anybody that we feel that the tempest needs to be changed.
SO I just begin with the following:
"The Tempest needs to be boosted/changed to be align/ballanced with other BS's of the same priceclass"
/signed
Originally by: CCP Dionysus We like to share the lub.
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Blind Jhon
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Posted - 2008.06.19 22:42:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Blind Jhon
whit 7 lowslot it wont be subpar othe tir2 bs in tanking.... maybe if u think it isn't enought agility boost and low slot bonus
whit a more low it can:
-have bettertank
-fit more gyrostab
-fit traking upgrade for snipering of to compensate bad 800mm traking
-can fit fitting mod
-if u want can fit even an inertia stab!!! an overdrive injiector....
this do not satisfy every need?
anyways...
/signed
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Drek Grapper
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Posted - 2008.06.19 23:42:00 -
[51]
Originally by: arbalesttom
Originally by: Bootleg Greg Every ship has a counter, stop complaining and find it.
Yeah, basicly everything is a viable counter to a tempest
Lol! --------- If the Thorax was a car it would look like this |
Drek Grapper
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Posted - 2008.06.19 23:44:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Blind Jhon
...... with a fitting mod. ok but come on at least it need more 20% CPU
because 2 fitting mod seems a bit too much on a pvp fitting..... or it's just me?
ps astro sorry if my post isn't well done i just want to bring attemption on this problem
Yeah astro...give the guy a break. He is blind after all. --------- If the Thorax was a car it would look like this |
Kagura Nikon
Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.20 02:32:00 -
[53]
CCP just need to unbreak overheat. So you can overheat durign a cycle of MWD. Increase a bit tempest agility (make it again the most agile BS, now its the scorpion) to compensate for the now 30% longer range of web.
Soem tiny CPu upgrade so it can fit Track disruptor (since the ECM now is useles on non dedicated ship ( bad change CCP, balance is not same thing as overhelming change)
That would give it back some of the AC pest love.
For the arty. Well arties lost their only advantage when alpha strike was super nerfed on the HP boost. Lower range, lower tracking high fittings and average damage. Not exaclty impressive.
Halve the rof and double the damage modifier. (NO it wil NOT screw mission runners, they can still achieve same result then by puttign 3 guns on each target).
Change arties overheat from rof into DAMAGE.
Then again we have a weapon with flavor. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.06.20 04:40:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/06/2008 04:41:14
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Halve the rof and double the damage modifier. (NO it wil NOT screw mission runners, they can still achieve same result then by puttign 3 guns on each target).
Care to try and back that up with some numbers (you'll find that you're dead wrong if you try)? I've been looking for an excuse to forum ***** again. :)
Quote: Change arties overheat from rof into DAMAGE.
+1
-Liang
Ed: I would like to point out that the gains to be had from not reloading as much will likely overcome the loss in damage from ROF/damage mods... but that's not what you were arguing. :) -- It was an honor to participate in the Insurgency campaign in Branch. o7 to all involved. |
To mare
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Posted - 2008.06.20 07:18:00 -
[55]
minmatar BS are ok projectile weapons are crap
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Thirzarr
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Posted - 2008.06.20 07:52:00 -
[56]
Originally by: To mare minmatar BS are ok
Actually they are - except the Maelstrom wich definately needs more speed.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2008.06.20 08:11:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/06/2008 08:14:45
Originally by: Jalif Just collect a lot of "/signed" & show CCP or anybody that we feel that the tempest needs to be changed.
SO I just begin with the following:
"The Tempest needs to be boosted/changed to be align/ballanced with other BS's of the same priceclass"
/signed
Let me know when the thread reaches 100 pages like the Amarr thread did, and Ill put in a signed, just for kicks.
Its useless to sit around typing signed. What you need are good arguments and a crap load of patience to do the arguments 50 times over and over again to new people in the thread, while hardly anyone is going to agree with you unless they fly Tempests all day long. Got what it takes?
--- Its dead, Jim.
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Jalif
Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.20 08:36:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 08:38:00
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/06/2008 08:14:45
Originally by: Jalif Just collect a lot of "/signed" & show CCP or anybody that we feel that the tempest needs to be changed.
SO I just begin with the following:
"The Tempest needs to be boosted/changed to be align/ballanced with other BS's of the same priceclass"
/signed
Let me know when the thread reaches 100 pages like the Amarr thread did, and Ill put in a signed, just for kicks.
Its useless to sit around typing signed. What you need are good arguments and a crap load of patience to do the arguments 50 times over and over again to new people in the thread, while hardly anyone is going to agree with you unless they fly Tempests all day long. Got what it takes?
Well, there was a large amount of carrier pilots making treaths & on EVE-FEST begging, screaming, whatsoever not to nerf the carriers. Why can't we do the same for boosting the tempest?
PS: I already gave a few options that would help out the tempest & arties, but ones I posted those ideas, people stoped posting in the same topic.
Originally by: CCP Dionysus We like to share the lub.
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arbalesttom
Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.20 10:29:00 -
[59]
The op should rename the thread to something like '@CCP: Minmatar battlships - The broken ships' and keep bumping it every day, may get a bit bigger chance on a quick fix ***Sig***
Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
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Cpt Branko
Surge. NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.06.20 10:42:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 20/06/2008 10:43:46
Originally by: Blind Jhon
liang you are in right but, do you understand thet the only way to have a "decent" tank on a tempest whitout say goodby to your damage is a shield tank
The Maelstorm does this infinitely better, and without fitting mods.
If the Tempest was at least more agile then the Mega/Hype/Raven/etc, then the 'speed and agility' comments would hold water.
You kill speed by armour rigging it (wether rep amount/speed rigs, or trimarks), anyway, and it's agility is horrible to begin with.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
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