Originally by: Rane Javoke

---

but it can stay out of falloff range (say, vs a mega) while pelting it with AC shells and heavy neut blasts. it just takes lots of skills, both in and out of game.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/06/2008 15:16:41

Originally by: Rane Javoke

---

but it can stay out of falloff range (say, vs a mega) while pelting it with AC shells and heavy neut blasts. it just takes lots of skills, both in and out of game.

---

And time. You need like 10 minutes of shooting another battleship before it goes down, 30 minutes if its a caldari ship...

Gallente is much easier to win with. Once you're in range, the other ship dies most of the time, and *fast*.

Currently training for gallente ships to find out if they are as easy to win with as I think they are.

---

Originally by: Rane Javoke

---

Does the rest of the minmatar fleet below BS size make up for the mediocre BSes and caps? oh my, yes

---

Originally by: AstroPhobic

---

(comparisons)

---

Originally by: Trevor Warps

---

And your sucky tempest shoots out to what, 40 km ?

---

Originally by: Rane Javoke

---

Do minmatar BSes suck? In absolute terms, yes. On special occasions they are at best interesting

---

Quote:

---

Do they need a boost? yes, albeit a minor one (imo).

---

Quote:

---

Does the rest of the minmatar fleet below BS size make up for the mediocre BSes and caps? oh my, yes

---

Originally by: Ong

---

Oh my good god, yes matar bs's do realy need some love, the phoon is not a bad fleet ship when combined with other high dps bs's as it can add to the dps (not by much) and can give aid to the other bs's with remote rep. the tempest is rubbish, it doesent tank, it doesent do enough damage to gank fit it as it will lose to every other gank bs in the game. the mael is not bad, but compaired to the other t3 bs's its well below average with an ok tank and ok dps. please please ccp show the matar bs's some love, im personally cross training to get the mega/hype as both are far superior bs's.
the pest needs an extra low slot and extra gun slot, the mael either needs more dps or a better tank, so a higher damage bonus, or maybe some form of resist bonus.

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

Edited by: Trojanman190 on 19/06/2008 17:58:16


Btw wtf are you doing not fitting dual reps?

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.

---

Originally by: Bootleg Greg

---

Every ship has a counter, stop complaining and find it.

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.

---

Originally by: Siddy

---

Because in close combat buffer > reps

period.

---

Originally by: Selia Rain

---

Try the classic gang setup with a shield tank and 3x gyro+800mm AC. It's classic because it's rarely used anymore, not because it's crap.

With a shield tank you:
Can fit 3x gyros easy.
Can fit siege launchers with a fitting mod.
Can fit falloff rigs without worrying overmuch about pg use.

Dps is over 1k with siege and 5x hammerheads, on the other hand, a mere 400-500 dps tank is nothing
special, but the damage is well worth it, in my opinion.

---

Originally by: Bootleg Greg

---

I am not trying to troll, but I wish some-day the "This Ship Sucks!" threads would cease. This game is a very balanced game, you do not succeed in this game through a better ship. The game is about knowledge/strategy/intelligence. If you cannot defeat the enemy, run away, come back in something that can. Every ship has a counter, stop complaining and find it.

---

Originally by: arbalesttom

---

Both buffertank and dual rep tanks suck on a tempest, since you really want at least 2 gyro's on it.

So, in order to do 'gank' like dps, you have no tank to speak of (buffer or dual rep). If you want to tank, even a thorax will outdamage you..

---

Quote:

---

What you're missing is that the Tempest has an exceedingly narrow role in combat... there's really not any good reasons to use it (unless you have NO missile/drone skills, good gunnery skills, and you're suicidal enough to try and nano a turret based battleship).

What does the Tempest have for it? Two utility mids that can be used for RR or Neuts, and a bit of speed. Does this make up for the huge variety of situations that it sucks in? No, not really.

-Liang

---

Originally by: Rane Javoke

---

Hypothetical new tempest :

slots as they are

~+5% pg (for fitting 6 1400 without RCU)
Bonuses : +7.5% large projectile damage, 5% optimal range

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Edited by: Sokratesz on 19/06/2008 19:51:20

Originally by: Rane Javoke

---

Hypothetical new tempest :

slots as they are

~+5% pg (for fitting 6 1400 without RCU)
Bonuses : +7.5% large projectile damage, 5% optimal range

---

This would obsolete it as a closerange ACboat. Better give it 10% to faloff on top of 7.5% ROF and a speed and agility increase, and improve the tracking of large AC in general. Voila, medium-range medium damage fastmoving BS. Sounds minmatar enough to you?

---

Originally by: AstroPhobic

---

I don't think it was intended to be a fleet sniper

---

Originally by: AstroPhobic

---

whatever "it" is

---

Originally by: AstroPhobic

---

Which means you would need to buff artillery, then mold the tempest to be an arty boat, to buff it

---

Quote:

---

The ROF and faloff bonsues i proposed would make it best suited as a midrange AC boat (duh), and although the dps is a tad low this can be solved by a 7th turret.

---

Originally by: Rane Javoke

---

Edited by: Rane Javoke on 19/06/2008 20:28:59

Originally by: AstroPhobic

---

I don't think it was intended to be a fleet sniper

---

the apoc was not intended to be the fleet sniper. The sacrilege wasn't intended to be a short range assault missile nanoboat. A small change to bring purpose in a couple o matar ships isn't too much of a deal.

Originally by: AstroPhobic

---

whatever "it" is

---

"it" being the lack of a purpose for the tempest (and mael maybe).

Originally by: AstroPhobic

---

Which means you would need to buff artillery, then mold the tempest to be an arty boat, to buff it

---

Maybe. Sounds solid enough, although personally I like Socratesz's idea more tbh
Anyway, i think I'll take any boost no matter how minor without complaint.

edit: in my short 0.0 experience I've seen to my disappointment no-one likes the mael. It's too small for small fast gangs, too expensive for fleetfights and tanks in shield, which is not convenient in fleets as well.

---

Originally by: Rane Javoke

---

Edited by: Rane Javoke on 19/06/2008 14:57:45
don't forget to factor in better speed, agility, range (due to barrage), selectable damage and capless guns.
it's tank is sub par though, given the slot layout, but it stays true with minmatar philosophy (in that it's mediocre and versatile).
plus, you can fit and permarun double reppers if you reaaaaally want to without gimping it too much. still, it will be no match for other tanked BSes, but hey, name one minmatar ship that tanks well (-maelstorm).

gank-wise, you just have to outmaneuver or out-e-war your opponent. So yeah its not as impressive in the "mwd-on, approach in point blank range, melt with blasters" game, but it can stay out of falloff range (say, vs a mega) while pelting it with AC shells and heavy neut blasts. it just takes lots of skills, both in and out of game.

on another note, because i too love the tempest, it should get some lovin' (a tad more speed, pg/cpu, boost of artillery aplha.. whatever), because atm it fails as a long range sniper, and it's merely competent solo.

at least thats my opinion :)


edit: ninja grammar and syntax corrections :P

---

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

---

problem is these tatics were demolished by the advent of overheating. Your speed advantage measn nothing. Because when you are in middle of an MWD pulse, the hostile mga overheat its MWD get 50% extra thrust. Will be way faster then you . And you cannto activate your overheat until your cycle is ended.


The kite tactics were completely neutralized by the advent of overheating.

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.

---

Originally by: CCP Dionysus

---

We like to share the lub.

---

Originally by: Blind Jhon

---

whit 7 lowslot it wont be subpar othe tir2 bs in tanking....
maybe if u think it isn't enought agility boost and low slot bonus

whit a more low it can:

-have bettertank

-fit more gyrostab

-fit traking upgrade for snipering of to compensate bad 800mm traking

-can fit fitting mod

-if u want can fit even an inertia stab!!! an overdrive injiector....

---

Originally by: arbalesttom

---

Originally by: Bootleg Greg

---

Every ship has a counter, stop complaining and find it.

---

Yeah, basicly everything is a viable counter to a tempest

---

Originally by: Blind Jhon

---

...... with a fitting mod.
ok but come on at least it need more 20% CPU

because 2 fitting mod seems a bit too much on a pvp fitting..... or it's just me?

ps astro sorry if my post isn't well done i just want to bring attemption on this problem

---

Originally by: Kagura Nikon

---

Halve the rof and double the damage modifier. (NO it wil NOT screw mission runners, they can still achieve same result then by puttign 3 guns on each target).

---

Quote:

---

Change arties overheat from rof into DAMAGE.

---

Originally by: To mare

---

minmatar BS are ok

---

Originally by: Jalif

---

Just collect a lot of "/signed" & show CCP or anybody that we feel that the tempest needs to be changed.

SO I just begin with the following:

"The Tempest needs to be boosted/changed to be align/ballanced with other BS's of the same priceclass"

/signed

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/06/2008 08:14:45

Originally by: Jalif

---

Just collect a lot of "/signed" & show CCP or anybody that we feel that the tempest needs to be changed.

SO I just begin with the following:

"The Tempest needs to be boosted/changed to be align/ballanced with other BS's of the same priceclass"

/signed

---

Let me know when the thread reaches 100 pages like the Amarr thread did, and Ill put in a signed, just for kicks.

Its useless to sit around typing signed. What you need are good arguments and a crap load of patience to do the arguments 50 times over and over again to new people in the thread, while hardly anyone is going to agree with you unless they fly Tempests all day long. Got what it takes?

---

Originally by: CCP Dionysus

---

We like to share the lub.

---

Originally by: Cpt Branko

---

That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.

---

Originally by: Blind Jhon

---

liang you are in right but, do you understand thet the only way to have a "decent" tank on a tempest whitout say goodby to your damage is a shield tank

---

Originally by: arbalesttom

---

The op should rename the thread to something like '@CCP: Minmatar battlships - The broken ships' and keep bumping it every day, may get a bit bigger chance on a quick fix

---

Originally by: CCP Dionysus

---

We like to share the lub.

---

Originally by: arbalesttom

---

The op should rename the thread to something like '@CCP: Minmatar battlships - The broken ships' and keep bumping it every day, may get a bit bigger chance on a quick fix

---

Originally by: To mare

---

tempest isnt broken, projectile weapons are.

yes a 7th turret, 7th low or agility boost will make the pest a bit better but this dont solve the problem.

fix the guns and automatically you fix tempest + maelstrom.

the only good minmatar BS is the one who use torpedo + drones as is main damage source.

for the LOL a maelstrom do better dps,range,everything with laser than with projectile where its supposed to have a bonus. Ok it will cap out in no time but in minmatar hit and run strategy that wouldnt matter too much.

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/06/2008 08:14:45

Let me know when the thread reaches 100 pages like the Amarr thread did, and Ill put in a signed, just for kicks.

Its useless to sit around typing signed. What you need are good arguments and a crap load of patience to do the arguments 50 times over and over again to new people in the thread, while hardly anyone is going to agree with you unless they fly Tempests all day long. Got what it takes?

---

Originally by: To mare

---

for the LOL a maelstrom do better dps,range,everything with laser than with projectile where its supposed to have a bonus. Ok it will cap out in no time but in minmatar hit and run strategy that wouldnt matter too much.

---

Originally by: Veryez

---

OMG you're right, I'm going to be ill.....

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

......

Ac
Ac hasnt changed much, but now that you can't...
Jam for 20 seconds to cut enemy dps to give your mediorce 6 slot tank a break...
Nos to help add to your dps (less tank for them means more dps for you) and add to your mediocre tank...
Kite due to rigs making tanks to strong for solo kited damage to actually work...
Kite since a quick overload of an mwd and web can catch you easily (not to mention blobs)...

So with no tricky versatility we are left with:
Sub parish damage in optimal (thats less than 4km)
Horrible dps outside of 25km
A week tank that is tricky to maintain.

All for our guns not taking cap?

My opinion is that to much about our race sucks now to use the old 'capless weapons' argument. Weak cap, weak tank, weak range, weak dps, weak sensor strength, weak targeting range, split weapons.

Oh yea we can target a little faster and move a little faster.

There is to much weighing against minmatar battleships for them to be considered balanced, tempest is just seems to be hurt the most.

---

Originally by: Blind Jhon

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

stuff i sed

---

dude in my last post "tempest should be fixed" i sayd
<< my idea is: give him a 7.5% (instead of 5) RATE OF FIRE BONUS >>

all i got was some "" but you use no cap bla bla bla" amswers and some flame

---

Originally by: Blind Jhon

---

edit: even the mega has silly max range but noone complain about it, why?

because blaster hurt as god himself, and the ship is able to tank. ok i understand a bit less damage from AC, to gain more falloff but sacrify tank, gank, max range just for "i use no cap" is too much.

i agree in boost large guns but as Trojanman sayd too, tempest suffered much for all the nerf done up to now. so, i guess, it need a boost too....

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

I agree with the op, tempest was really hurt by almost every nerf eve has encountered. This once really versatile ship has lost its advantage over other ships... those old crazy setups just don't work anymore. But I have some other comments...

1. Talking about speed or agility on a battleship is stupid. If you manage to get a 1 on 1 at a belt ok it matters a bit but seriously, this rarely rarely happens. Boosting the agility and speed of this ship would help less than 5% of encounters.

2. The geddon, apoc, and abbaddon have optimals of 55km using scorch (apoc even farther). That means they hit 100% of the time against a target they can track at that range. At 35km the tempest hits less than 50% of the time, and its weapons don't even do as much damage as lasers. So with a gank barrage fit you get 900 paper dps. Cool. At 35km against a stationary target you really get 450. If its moving? 300 maybe. Kiting with a tempest is dead because in a 1 on 1 you cant break rigged tanks while orbiting at 20, you simply don't have the dps in fall off.

3. Someone mentioned needing an rcu to fit 6 1400s... dude get AWU V they fit fine. If you want to fix the tempest as a sniper artillery needs a higher ammo capacity so we aren't constantly reloading and we need a higher optimal... right now we have to snipe at 160km when everyone else (mega) can sit at 190 to 200km no problem and match or exceed our dps. And we have weaker tracking to boot.

4. The 6 slot dual rep tank is average strength and inside of 4km it has decent dps (not great). For ship with capless guns it just does not last as long as it shoudl. The other problem is that the ship has two bonuses to its guns and cant match ships that get 1 damage bonus to their guns.

The more and more people whine about it the more it sounds like ACs and Arty have a serious problem and NOT the tempest. The ship used to be good but the modules it relied on (ecm, nos etc) were nerfed and now it actually has to fall back on conventional weapons (which is not very minmatarish). People are now finding out that our conventional weapons flat out suck when we don't have a nifty gimick beyond other race's pure tank or gank to rely on.

Arty:
Alpha nerfed with the hp boost.
Weak dps made even more ineffective with the hp boost.
Ranges of other races boosted makes arty even more subpar.
Fastest bs of it's tier has the worst tracking arty = less aligned sniping dps.

Ac
Ac hasnt changed much, but now that you can't...
Jam for 20 seconds to cut enemy dps to give your mediorce 6 slot tank a break...
Nos to help add to your dps (less tank for them means more dps for you) and add to your mediocre tank...
Kite due to rigs making tanks to strong for solo kited damage to actually work...
Kite since a quick overload of an mwd and web can catch you easily (not to mention blobs)...

So with no tricky versatility we are left with:
Sub parish damage in optimal (thats less than 4km)
Horrible dps outside of 25km
A week tank that is tricky to maintain.

All for our guns not taking cap?

My opinion is that to much about our race sucks now to use the old 'capless weapons' argument. Weak cap, weak tank, weak range, weak dps, weak sensor strength, weak targeting range, split weapons.

Oh yea we can target a little faster and move a little faster.

There is to much weighing against minmatar battleships for them to be considered balanced, tempest is just seems to be hurt the most.

---

Originally by: Hugh Ruka

---

It seems it boils down to ammo.

With increased ammo damage, you could solve both problems. AC DPS and Arty alpha strike.

EMP has 44 damage total (20 EM, 8 KIN, 16 EXP)
AM has 48 damage total (20 THERM, 28 KIN)
MF has 48 damage total (28 EM, 20 THERM)

Artillery has the lowest DPS of the lot, same with Autocannons and they still have the lowest damage ammo. However this needs a detailed look at all the ammo types and variations :-)

---

Originally by: To mare

---

ammo dont matter.
barrage have 44 dmg
scorch have 44 dmg
ammo have the same dmg, the gun its crap.

(hail & conflagration have both 56dmg if someone use them)

---
EMP have lower dmg because long range projectile have more dmg than others races long range ammo, i will never understand that but i live with it.

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

Edited by: Trojanman190 on 20/06/2008 16:03:07

Originally by: To mare

---

ammo dont matter.
barrage have 44 dmg
scorch have 44 dmg
ammo have the same dmg, the gun its crap.

(hail & conflagration have both 56dmg if someone use them)

---
EMP have lower dmg because long range projectile have more dmg than others races long range ammo, i will never understand that but i live with it.

---

Maybe you are right, the (raw)damage itself isn't to much a problem. I still feel that the falloff is a huge problem and needs to be looked at.

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

I agree with the op, tempest was really hurt by almost every nerf eve has encountered. This once really versatile ship has lost its advantage over other ships... those old crazy setups just don't work anymore. But I have some other comments...

1. Talking about speed or agility on a battleship is stupid. If you manage to get a 1 on 1 at a belt ok it matters a bit but seriously, this rarely rarely happens. Boosting the agility and speed of this ship would help less than 5% of encounters.

2. The geddon, apoc, and abbaddon have optimals of 55km using scorch (apoc even farther). That means they hit 100% of the time against a target they can track at that range. At 35km the tempest hits less than 50% of the time, and its weapons don't even do as much damage as lasers. So with a gank barrage fit you get 900 paper dps. Cool. At 35km against a stationary target you really get 450. If its moving? 300 maybe. Kiting with a tempest is dead because in a 1 on 1 you cant break rigged tanks while orbiting at 20, you simply don't have the dps in fall off.

3. Someone mentioned needing an rcu to fit 6 1400s... dude get AWU V they fit fine. If you want to fix the tempest as a sniper artillery needs a higher ammo capacity so we aren't constantly reloading and we need a higher optimal... right now we have to snipe at 160km when everyone else (mega) can sit at 190 to 200km no problem and match or exceed our dps. And we have weaker tracking to boot.

4. The 6 slot dual rep tank is average strength and inside of 4km it has decent dps (not great). For ship with capless guns it just does not last as long as it shoudl. The other problem is that the ship has two bonuses to its guns and cant match ships that get 1 damage bonus to their guns.

The more and more people whine about it the more it sounds like ACs and Arty have a serious problem and NOT the tempest. The ship used to be good but the modules it relied on (ecm, nos etc) were nerfed and now it actually has to fall back on conventional weapons (which is not very minmatarish). People are now finding out that our conventional weapons flat out suck when we don't have a nifty gimick beyond other race's pure tank or gank to rely on.

Arty:
Alpha nerfed with the hp boost.
Weak dps made even more ineffective with the hp boost.
Ranges of other races boosted makes arty even more subpar.
Fastest bs of it's tier has the worst tracking arty = less aligned sniping dps.

Ac
Ac hasnt changed much, but now that you can't...
Jam for 20 seconds to cut enemy dps to give your mediorce 6 slot tank a break...
Nos to help add to your dps (less tank for them means more dps for you) and add to your mediocre tank...
Kite due to rigs making tanks to strong for solo kited damage to actually work...
Kite since a quick overload of an mwd and web can catch you easily (not to mention blobs)...

So with no tricky versatility we are left with:
Sub parish damage in optimal (thats less than 4km)
Horrible dps outside of 25km
A week tank that is tricky to maintain.

All for our guns not taking cap?

My opinion is that to much about our race sucks now to use the old 'capless weapons' argument. Weak cap, weak tank, weak range, weak dps, weak sensor strength, weak targeting range, split weapons.

Oh yea we can target a little faster and move a little faster.

There is to much weighing against minmatar battleships for them to be considered balanced, tempest is just seems to be hurt the most.

---

Originally by: To mare

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

...stuff i sed...

---

yes
i was just pointing out that the dmg of the ammo isnt the main problem.
even if you fix emp, projectile weapon are still subpar.
just look at the "test" you did maestrom with scorch VS maeltrom with barrage (same ammo dmg)

---

Originally by: AstroPhobic

---

Edited by: AstroPhobic on 20/06/2008 16:19:02

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

...my big post that people like...

---

Quoted for truth. Trojan, do you mind making your own thread with this subject matter? I think it's going to be hidden in this tempest thread - where it won't get the recognition needed.

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

The more and more people whine about it the more it sounds like ACs and Arty have a serious problem and NOT the tempest. The ship used to be good but the modules it relied on (ecm, nos etc) were nerfed and now it actually has to fall back on conventional weapons (which is not very minmatarish). People are now finding out that our conventional weapons flat out suck when we don't have a nifty gimick beyond other race's pure tank or gank to rely on.

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

above post

---

Originally by: Rane Javoke

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

above post

---

good points, solid arguments.

for the sake of conversation, i would like to add some things from personal experience (not that i wish to appear an uber gosu veteran, i am no such thing).

I have minnie bsV and large projectile spec IV, top gunnery, good navigation, top armor and shield tank skills, top fitting except AWU4. I have flown the tempest (and to a lesser extent, maelstrom) in almost every pvp setting, from small gank to POS slugfests.

I've seen tempests go down way faster than I expected, just because the pilot couldn't squeeze enough buffer tank between his tracking enhancers, damage mods and RCUs. I had trouble hitting the 160km optimal needed for fleetfights before i specced arty, and trouble with gank setups before speccing AC's.
Meanwhile, a friend of mine in a Megathron did both things better than me with t1 gear.

Putting empirical evidence behind, i agree with you on most points. I do not wish to see the pest radically changed (like most amarr ships @ trinity III). However, i firmly believe that something should change, and my suggestions were meant to point the proposed "boosts" in a general direction, that being the definition of a "role" for minnie BSes.

If it was upon me and me alone to do something, i'd boost large projectiles and get it over with.

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

...
As for a role... I want our wierd role back. The one where we were... well... wierd. Nos phoons, ecm tempests, snipings tempests, etc. Our wierdness didnt make us the best at anything but made us viable at everything. Without our wierdness we are reduced to tank or gank and we excell at neither. Since the general consesus of eve is to nerf any module that is remotely interesting we are going to need our tank and gank boosted. So our role will be everyone else's. Boring but at least we will be viable again.

---

Originally by: TimMc

---

Minmatar have battleships?

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

We have to be careful about what we wish for with ccp. They absolutely will not grant everything we ask so we need to eliminate the stuff that is not nearly as important or is to far reaching...

...

What am I getting at? What are plenty of others in this thread getting at? The tempest can be 'fixed' with fixes that not only make the tempest better, but the race as a whole better. Fixing AC fixes all three battleships. Fixing artillery helps out 2 of the battleships (some crazies put arty on the phoon so 3) All the while not taking these ships out of any of their roles.

---

Originally by: Trojanman190

---

I don't necarily agree that the the pest needs a better rof bonus, I think the guns themselves need to be boosted, but the point is that all these dudes think that capless turrets are some huge huge advantage. The capless bit would be nice if the turret's themselves didn't suck.

---

Originally by: CCP Dionysus

---

We like to share the lub.

---

Originally by: Jalif

---

Awesome posts,
Yeah, reading after all this & "specially" Trojanman190 post I defintnaly think that Minmatar guns need a boost.
Maybe change he topic title now to: @CCP - The Broken Arty & AC

---

Originally by: Rane Javoke

---

Edited by: Rane Javoke on 20/06/2008 21:45:55
...

edit: props to the participants, keep it up

---

Originally by: Siddy

---

Edited by: Siddy on 20/06/2008 22:05:36

TEMPEST IS FINE, ITS OK THAT AMARR TIRE 1 BS OUTDAMAGE EVERY MINMATAR SHIP, AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT ALSO OUT-PASSIVE TANK MINMATAR TIRE 1 AND 2 BS'S WITH 50M PRICETAG.

LETS NOT FORGET THAT, THAT SAID BS IS NEXST FASTES BS IN GAME AND ALL, ALSO SURPASSES MINNIE COUNTERPART IN MOST CHARACTERISTICS.

MINMATAR IS FINE.

JUST LIKE MY WRITING.

---

Originally by: CCP Dionysus

---

We like to share the lub.

---

Originally by: Siddy

---

Edited by: Siddy on 20/06/2008 22:05:36

TEMPEST IS FINE......

---

Originally by: MacDuncan

---

Well, as much as i would like the thought of a "once-again-powerfull-pest" - how long will we have to bump this thread? Just think of the phoons' story and it's lenght...

---

Originally by: Blind Jhon

---

in the last hour i'm seriously thinking a bout 125 m3 dronebay whit 100 band should be a nice begin ending whit an extra low slot ( i'm like the donkeys, never change idea) for the tempest.....

---

Originally by: Trevor Warps

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And your sucky tempest shoots out to what, 40 km ?

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Originally by: Guillame Herschel

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Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 20/06/2008 22:30:31

Originally by: Trevor Warps

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And your sucky tempest shoots out to what, 40 km ?

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I got mine setup with an optimal out to 152km, before any fleet boosts. All it took was three TC II, one TE II, 1 SB II, three Ionic field rigs (locking range) and of course, six 1400 II with Tremor, and level 5 in the related skills. I also need to use two fitting mods in the lows, so my only tank is a DCU II.

Of course, the Rokh sitting next to me shoots that far with level 3 skills and no rigs...

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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We like to share the lub.

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Originally by: To mare

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they wont change the slot layout its a tempest not a fake mega or geddon.
about drone bay, if u want to use drone get a phoon, tempest should be: warp in > BANG BANG > kil somethin > warp out > repeat.

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Originally by: Jalif

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Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 23:02:20
Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 23:00:29
What if we make arty just amazing long range weapons like the rokh but still very diffrent?
- double or triple the damage
- Make optimal like 20km?
- Make Falloff a hugh number (wouldn't know a number just fast out of my head but around 80km sounds good)
- Make Tracking Enhancers able to boost falloff
- Make Tracking Computer able to boost falloff
- Change the Tremor from optimal bonus to falloff bonus.


... You will boost AC too if you can fit atleast one of those modules. The fifth midslot for the tempest could be fitted with a tracking computer with a falloff script.

EDIT: you could get the same effect as the apoc (124km pulse range)fitted with:
1: Pulse lasers with scorch
2: Rigs
3: Tracking Enhancers & Tracking Computers to boost its optimal.

& then still the apoc has a better damage up until 124km & better tracking.

EDIT 2: About the 124km of Pulse range, I think it is the right number that I saw last time in a forum topic, but I can be wrong. However it was over 100km.

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Originally by: Jalif

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Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 23:02:20
Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 23:00:29
What if we make arty just amazing long range weapons like the rokh but still very diffrent?
- double or triple the damage
- Make optimal like 20km?
- Make Falloff a hugh number (wouldn't know a number just fast out of my head but around 80km sounds good)
- Make Tracking Enhancers able to boost falloff
- Make Tracking Computer able to boost falloff
- Change the Tremor from optimal bonus to falloff bonus.


... You will boost AC too if you can fit atleast one of those modules. The fifth midslot for the tempest could be fitted with a tracking computer with a falloff script.

EDIT: you could get the same effect as the apoc (124km pulse range)fitted with:
1: Pulse lasers with scorch
2: Rigs
3: Tracking Enhancers & Tracking Computers to boost its optimal.

& then still the apoc has a better damage up until 124km & better tracking.

EDIT 2: About the 124km of Pulse range, I think it is the right number that I saw last time in a forum topic, but I can be wrong. However it was over 100km.

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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We like to share the lub.

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Originally by: Gavin Darklighter

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Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 20/06/2008 23:22:19
Just boosting autocannon damage would not do anything meaningful for the tempest unless you boosted it to a level that made the Maelstrom unstoppable, and even then we still have the problem of the Maelstrom making the Tempest obsolete.

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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We like to share the lub.

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Originally by: Gavin Darklighter

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Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 20/06/2008 23:22:19
Just boosting autocannon damage would not do anything meaningful for the tempest unless you boosted it to a level that made the Maelstrom unstoppable, and even then we still have the problem of the Maelstrom making the Tempest obsolete.

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Originally by: Gavin Darklighter

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Sure, if you don't want a meaningful tank.

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Originally by: Jalif

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.....
Noticed that this treath is not about AC & Arty or Tempest, it is about those 3 stuff that we would like to see balanced.

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Originally by: Siddy

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Edited by: Siddy on 21/06/2008 09:52:56
tempest itself, got no problems as far fitting goes.

Its just, there isint anything reasonable to fit on tempest at the moment :/

Check out my thread from first page OP like, its abaut the 1400mm's

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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We like to share the lub.

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Originally by: Blind Jhon

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everyone speack about arty 1400mm but i just want to underline that,in my opinion, the problem is endeed in all the large projectile class gun


anyways good thread siddy i higlighted it in main page

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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We like to share the lub.

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Originally by: Blind Jhon

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everyone speack about arty 1400mm but i just want to underline that,in my opinion, the problem is endeed in all the large projectile class gun


anyways good thread siddy i higlighted it in main page

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Originally by: Siddy

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Originally by: Blind Jhon

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everyone speack about arty 1400mm but i just want to underline that,in my opinion, the problem is endeed in all the large projectile class gun


anyways good thread siddy i higlighted it in main page

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Well, autocannons blow hard right now.

Tempest cant do the passivetank + closerange fit nearly as well as Armageddon or megathron.

And armageddon 50m isk > megatron 80m isk > tempest 80m isk

The current flavor of the month in close range combat is 2 or 3 plates, damagecontrol, eanm's and damagemods.
This fitting will win everytime against similar active repping fit. Because current HP buffer gain equals for 2 TO 3 FRACKING MINUTES OF NON-STOP ACTIVE REPPING .

Making active repping on ships without bonus to it useless in PVP, going from Bad in 1v1 to USELESS in 5¦man gang engadements.

And if i bring spidertankking in here, well lets not.

So the TL;DR versions.

Tempest cant tank, or gankk in closerange enought to justify its use in close range. Speed bonus is laregly neglated by current overpowered webbers, designed to countter nanofaggotory.

And its longrange weponsystems that were FINE before HP boost, lost its alpha to abaddon and bacame useless due to low DPS

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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We like to share the lub.

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Originally by: Crellion

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Minmattar BSs are fine tbh, its the HACs, Reckons, frigs, BCs, Commands that need moar help /me runs away from the Minnie whiner squad.

Seriously. Minmattar are the pvp ships. They make you use your brian and if you do they are vastly superior to any other race's same class for pvp. However a couple of years ago minnie community leaders (LOL) decided that using guile on the forums was more sueful than using it in game.

RESULT> The norm is in evry class the Minnie choise outspeeds, out manoeuvres out locks, out warps, out ranges and generally POWNs and does 0.5 average less DPS than the uberest Gallente or Ammar equivalent (that needs to submit a triplicate application to turn and has 3 week waiting periods to lock)

I use all 4 races nowdays so this just amuses me but ... it amuses me a lot :D

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Originally by: Siddy

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Originally by: Crellion

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Minmattar BSs are fine tbh, its the HACs, Reckons, frigs, BCs, Commands that need moar help /me runs away from the Minnie whiner squad.

Seriously. Minmattar are the pvp ships. They make you use your brian and if you do they are vastly superior to any other race's same class for pvp. However a couple of years ago minnie community leaders (LOL) decided that using guile on the forums was more sueful than using it in game.

RESULT> The norm is in evry class the Minnie choise outspeeds, out manoeuvres out locks, out warps, out ranges and generally POWNs and does 0.5 average less DPS than the uberest Gallente or Ammar equivalent (that needs to submit a triplicate application to turn and has 3 week waiting periods to lock)

I use all 4 races nowdays so this just amuses me but ... it amuses me a lot :D

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40 facons!!!!!

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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We like to share the lub.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.

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Originally by: arbalesttom

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Nice thread, deserves to be on the top!

Keep up the good ideas guys, im to lazy do post anything helpfull but i sure enjoyed reading all the good stuff here!

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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We like to share the lub.

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Originally by: Blind Jhon

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Edited by: Blind Jhon on 21/06/2008 11:02:08

after many old thread about minmatar bs broken ships

tempest needs
tempest role?
-->SYDDY's 1400mm thread<--
[Issue] 1400mmArtilleryCSM VERSION
tempest surclassed?
tempest should be fixed


the problem is that
tempest is subpar the other tier2 bs class ship. it endeed need some lovin. as sayd "who need further proof is surely blind" (as me ¦_¦ )

how to buff it? say here your idea

it sufferd from all the nerf occurred in eve story
nos nerf, ecm nerf, drone nerf afterburner "nerf" whiot the great usage of MWD, and at last whit the actual overheating mecanic it cannot even take advantage from it's "uber velocity"


in my opinion
--> tempest need an extra low sltot and need an serious agility boost <--

extra low, in my opinion, will provide to adjust every need, since it can be used both for increase tank ability and dsp using an extra gyrostabilizer or fitting sniper, traking mods for fleet sniper or you can use it whit a RCU II for fitting 1400mm

do you not agree? thing you can do better? answer here

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Originally by: Setana Manoro

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Originally by: Blind Jhon

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Long Long Post

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So ... you basically want to get Machariels without built-in speed bonus, tracking bonus and HP bonus for 85m isk ?

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Originally by: Setana Manoro

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[
So ... you basically want to get Machariels without built-in speed bonus, tracking bonus and HP bonus for 85m isk ?

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Originally by: Siddy

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Originally by: Setana Manoro

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[
So ... you basically want to get Machariels without built-in speed bonus, tracking bonus and HP bonus for 85m isk ?

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Good point, machariels need boost too.

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Quote:

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extra low, in my opinion, will provide to adjust every need, since it can FIT MODULESbe used both for increase tank ability and dsp using an extra gyrostabilizer or fitting sniper mods, traking mods for fleet sniper or you can use it whit a RCU II for fitting 1400mm

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Originally by: Thercon Jair

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I have run 1 vs 1s against a corpmate of mine in his gallente boats, and I do have 47mil SP, 9.8mil in gunnery, and most tank skills applicable to either shield or armour tank maximised. But I still lose against him about everytime

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Originally by: Thercon Jair

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The other thing with fleet/POS bashing: I have to fit so many mods to get out to the correct optimal and locking range, along with fitting mods for the 1400mms that I can't fit any type of tank. If I wanted a plate I needed to sacrifice 2 lows because I'd need yet another RCU II to fit it, so I'm stuck with quite terrible dps along with a tank consisting of a DCU II (I think I couldn't even squeeze that in.

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Originally by: Thercon Jair

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I do think the whole balance for the minmatar race was screwed up in all the recent patches.

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Originally by: Thercon Jair

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I do think the whole balance for the minmatar race was screwed up in all the recent patches.

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Originally by: Jalif

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Originally by: Thercon Jair

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I do think the whole balance for the minmatar race was screwed up in all the recent patches.

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Q.F.T.

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Originally by: Cpt Branko

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That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.

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Originally by: arbalesttom

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Originally by: Jalif

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Originally by: Thercon Jair

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I do think the whole balance for the minmatar race was screwed up in all the recent patches.

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Q.F.T.

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I second that....

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Originally by: Siddy

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Well, autocannons blow hard right now.

Tempest cant do the passivetank + closerange fit nearly as well as Armageddon or megathron.

And armageddon 50m isk > megatron 80m isk > tempest 80m isk

The current flavor of the month in close range combat is 2 or 3 plates, damagecontrol, eanm's and damagemods.
This fitting will win everytime against similar active repping fit. Because current HP buffer gain equals for 2 TO 3 FRACKING MINUTES OF NON-STOP ACTIVE REPPING .

Making active repping on ships without bonus to it useless in PVP, going from Bad in 1v1 to USELESS in 5¦man gang engadements.

And if i bring spidertankking in here, well lets not.

So the TL;DR versions.

Tempest cant tank, or gankk in closerange enought to justify its use in close range. Speed bonus is laregly neglated by current overpowered webbers, designed to countter nanofaggotory.

And its longrange weponsystems that were FINE before HP boost, lost its alpha to abaddon and bacame useless due to low DPS

---

Originally by: Veryez

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...
........Nerf passive tanks. Reduce the size of plates and extenders back to their original numbers and stacking nerf plates and rigs - you can even leave the ship HP's the same. Make ships active tank again and bingo capless weapons become valuable again.

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if both shield extenders ( subtracting energy to the engine system) and plate (this is logic... mass icreasend bla bla bla velocity and mass) drastically decrease the max velocity...

Originally by: Veryez

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Otherwise increase the DPS of both AC's and Artillery by around 40% (not the useless 10% they gave us).

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Originally by: Veryez

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You want to fix the Tempest and projectiles in general? Nerf passive tanks. Reduce the size of plates and extenders back to their original numbers and stacking nerf plates and rigs - you can even leave the ship HP's the same. Make ships active tank again and bingo capless weapons become valuable again. Otherwise increase the DPS of both AC's and Artillery by around 40% (not the useless 10% they gave us).

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Originally by: Rastigan

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Originally by: Veryez

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You want to fix the Tempest and projectiles in general? Nerf passive tanks. Reduce the size of plates and extenders back to their original numbers and stacking nerf plates and rigs - you can even leave the ship HP's the same. Make ships active tank again and bingo capless weapons become valuable again. Otherwise increase the DPS of both AC's and Artillery by around 40% (not the useless 10% they gave us).

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Why dont they just nerf the EM/EXPLOSIVE resists of armor and shields ? Oh wait they did.

So the Tempest is subpar ? Now you know how it feels for the other races T2 ships..

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Originally by: Blind Jhon

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and what if......
if both shield extenders ( subtracting energy to the engine system) and plate (this is logic... mass icreasend bla bla bla velocity and mass) drastically decrease the max velocity...

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Originally by: Jalif

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Originally by: Blind Jhon

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and what if......
if both shield extenders ( subtracting energy to the engine system) and plate (this is logic... mass icreasend bla bla bla velocity and mass) drastically decrease the max velocity...

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YOUR BEST IDEA EVER.
However it shouldn't substract from engine, but from the capacitor.
Every single nano-ship (ship that shouldn't be a fast flying ship) has always shield extenders since plates only make the ship more heavy.

If you want to go nano, make sure then that you don't get shot or hit by missles (isn't that the purpuse of nano anyway?)
Reason why from the capacitor is that it would make normal shield tankers way to slow & passive tank does not die from it because it doesn't use cap anyway.

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and give tempest his damned 7th low slot

Originally by: Rastigan

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Why dont they just nerf the EM/EXPLOSIVE resists of armor and shields ? Oh wait they did.

So the Tempest is subpar ? Now you know how it feels for the other races T2 ships..

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Originally by: Jalif

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YOUR BEST IDEA EVER.
However it shouldn't substract from engine, but from the capacitor.
Every single nano-ship (ship that shouldn't be a fast flying ship) has always shield extenders since plates only make the ship more heavy.
If you want to go nano, make sure then that you don't get shot or hit by missles (isn't that the purpuse of nano anyway?)
Reason why from the capacitor is that it would make normal shield tankers way to slow & passive tank does not die from it because it doesn't use cap anyway.

---

Originally by: Rastigan

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Originally by: Veryez

---

You want to fix the Tempest and projectiles in general? Nerf passive tanks. Reduce the size of plates and extenders back to their original numbers and stacking nerf plates and rigs - you can even leave the ship HP's the same. Make ships active tank again and bingo capless weapons become valuable again. Otherwise increase the DPS of both AC's and Artillery by around 40% (not the useless 10% they gave us).

---

Why dont they just nerf the EM/EXPLOSIVE resists of armor and shields ? Oh wait they did.

So the Tempest is subpar ? Now you know how it feels for the other races T2 ships..

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Originally by: Crellion

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he norm is in evry class the Minnie choise outspeeds

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Quote:

---

out manoeuvres

---

Quote:

---

out locks

---

Quote:

---

out warps

---

Quote:

---

out ranges

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Quote:

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does 0.5 average less DPS than the uberest Gallente or Ammar equivalent

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Originally by: Veryez

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Originally by: Rastigan

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Why dont they just nerf the EM/EXPLOSIVE resists of armor and shields ? Oh wait they did.

So the Tempest is subpar ? Now you know how it feels for the other races T2 ships..

---

I said it before and it's worth repeating, reducing EM resist on armor only helps minmatar w/t1 ammo. All t2 ammo is Exp/Kin - and when last I checked I still use far more barrage than RF EMP. Also reducing explosive resists of shields wasn't a boost to minmatar - at best we break even since 1) We use Exp Ammo and 2) All our t2 ships shield tank . Since my Vaga went from running a Kinetic Deflection Amp II to a Invul Field II (more cap use - meh) I really don't feel boosted.....

Originally by: Jalif

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YOUR BEST IDEA EVER.
However it shouldn't substract from engine, but from the capacitor.
Every single nano-ship (ship that shouldn't be a fast flying ship) has always shield extenders since plates only make the ship more heavy.
If you want to go nano, make sure then that you don't get shot or hit by missles (isn't that the purpuse of nano anyway?)
Reason why from the capacitor is that it would make normal shield tankers way to slow & passive tank does not die from it because it doesn't use cap anyway.

---

Yup, that would pretty much destroy the Vagabond/Rapier/Huginn - you are aware that Minmatar t2 ships shield tank right? Great, now I'm sure CCP will do this.

We should get back on topic (part my fault, I know), which is fixing the Tempest, not the whole game.

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Originally by: Pax Empyrean

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What's up with smacktards naming their threads "Official"? You don't work for CCP, your thread isn't official anything. Failing every time you try to spell "with" doesn't help dispel the idiot image you're presenting. Maybe with more practice you'll get better at whining if CCP doesn't fix this for a while.

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Quote:

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Please stay away & stop irritating people.

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Originally by: I SoStoned

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Don't change anything about the ship's PG/CPU, slots, or bonuses.

Just make it an 8/8/8 layout and let the players work out the fittings.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: I SoStoned

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Don't change anything about the ship's PG/CPU, slots, or bonuses.

Just make it an 8/8/8 layout and let the players work out the fittings.

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6 650mm IIs/Barrage, 2 Neut/Siege/Nos/Whatever
5 Large Shield Extender IIs, 3 Invulnerability Field IIs
8 Shield Power Relay IIs

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Originally by: Jalif

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I found it also funny why you choose the 650mm instead of 800mm. Is there any use of the 800mm? If not? I geuss that should be looked at it too. (Also the 425mm Medium Projectile counts in this)

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Originally by: Jalif

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Well, if this can take up 8 months & without results, I keep just on skilling towards Amarr. Cause before that time I fly their BS's already effectively.

PS: If you think I am lying/bluffing, I am happy to post a proof.

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Originally by: Jalif

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Well, if this can take up 8 months & without results, I keep just on skilling towards Amarr. Cause before that time I fly their BS's already effectively.

PS: If you think I am lying/bluffing, I am happy to post a proof.

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

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Originally by: Jalif

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Well, if this can take up 8 months & without results, I keep just on skilling towards Amarr. Cause before that time I fly their BS's already effectively.

PS: If you think I am lying/bluffing, I am happy to post a proof.

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I'm skilling medium energy turret 5 as we speak. Amarr ftw

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Originally by: Jalif

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Originally by: AstroPhobic

---

Originally by: Jalif

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Well, if this can take up 8 months & without results, I keep just on skilling towards Amarr. Cause before that time I fly their BS's already effectively.

PS: If you think I am lying/bluffing, I am happy to post a proof.

---

I'm skilling medium energy turret 5 as we speak. Amarr ftw

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Just watch, just on the moment that everybody is skilling for something else or they are already there. Then they will buff minmatar.

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Originally by: Wrayeth

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Here's my suggestion for how to fix the tempest:

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=711359&page=1#1

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Originally by: Veryez

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Increase the bonuses. Make it a true DPS platform - it would be the simplest solution. Nothing overpowered, but enough to overcome the passive tanks that other races can field. While I haven't run the exact numbers, try something like 7.5% ROF per level, 7.5% Damage per level which should increase DPS by around 28.5%.

If we use Blind Jhon's numbers in post 112, the Tempest's DPS with that setup would be around 17.3 DPS - hardly game breaking, yet a significant step in the correct direction. Add in the suggestions for 150m3 drone bay and 100m3 bandwidth and the ship would be back without stepping on either the Mael's or Phoon's toes.

Even with these changes I think Artillery needs work (i.e. at very least a larger clip size) but this magnitude of change is the type that's needed.

---

Originally by: Veryez

---

Since we're brainstorming ideas, throw this on the pile. Those of us who fly the tempest really don't want the layout changed. The 8/5/6 layout means no matter how you set it up you will never armor tank as well as an 8/4/7 layout or shield tank as well as an 8/6/5 layout. While some have suggested giving the Tempest a 7th gun (which surprisingly a torp launcher in the 7th slot does about the same dps) or 7th low (better tank), how about this. Increase the bonuses. Make it a true DPS platform - it would be the simplest solution. Nothing overpowered, but enough to overcome the passive tanks that other races can field. While I haven't run the exact numbers, try something like 7.5% ROF per level, 7.5% Damage per level which should increase DPS by around 28.5%.

If we use Blind Jhon's numbers in post 112, the Tempest's DPS with that setup would be around 17.3 DPS - hardly game breaking, yet a significant step in the correct direction. Add in the suggestions for 150m3 drone bay and 100m3 bandwidth and the ship would be back without stepping on either the Mael's or Phoon's toes.

Even with these changes I think Artillery needs work (i.e. at very least a larger clip size) but this magnitude of change is the type that's needed.

---

Originally by: To mare

---

id like to see something from CCP first.
if they plan to do something or if we should just start train for amarr

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Originally by: Jalif

---

Edited by: Jalif on 22/06/2008 13:42:26

Originally by: To mare

---

id like to see something from CCP first.
if they plan to do something or if we should just start train for amarr

---

Or Gallente/Caldari.

But hee, should we really expect a response from CCP? Cause they never do & I won't think they will ever respond on this one. So all what we discuss here is a lost cause. Damn, that feels bad.
Well I hope "they" will atleast do/tell something.

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Originally by: SickSeven

---

Originally by: Jalif

---

Edited by: Jalif on 22/06/2008 13:42:26

Originally by: To mare

---

id like to see something from CCP first.
if they plan to do something or if we should just start train for amarr

---

Or Gallente/Caldari.

But hee, should we really expect a response from CCP? Cause they never do & I won't think they will ever respond on this one. So all what we discuss here is a lost cause. Damn, that feels bad.
Well I hope "they" will atleast do/tell something.

---

They will respond if we keep at it. This discussion has just begun. They changed things for the amarr did they not? And minmatar weapons are so utterly and totally outclassed I dont think they can ignore it. Patience and determination will see us through.

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Originally by: Tarron Sarek

---

An Amazing Long GOOD Post

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Originally by: Crellion

---

Minmattar BSs are fine tbh, its the HACs, Reckons, frigs, BCs, Commands that need moar help /me runs away from the Minnie whiner squad.

Seriously. Minmattar are the pvp ships. They make you use your brian and if you do they are vastly superior to any other race's same class for pvp. However a couple of years ago minnie community leaders (LOL) decided that using guile on the forums was more sueful than using it in game.

RESULT> The norm is in evry class the Minnie choise outspeeds, out manoeuvres out locks, out warps, out ranges and generally POWNs and does 0.5 average less DPS than the uberest Gallente or Ammar equivalent (that needs to submit a triplicate application to turn and has 3 week waiting periods to lock)

I use all 4 races nowdays so this just amuses me but ... it amuses me a lot :D

---

Originally by: Selia Rain

---

Try the classic gang setup with a shield tank and 3x gyro+800mm AC. It's classic because it's rarely used anymore, not because it's crap.

With a shield tank you:
Can fit 3x gyros easy.
Can fit siege launchers with a fitting mod.
Can fit falloff rigs without worrying overmuch about pg use.

Dps is over 1k with siege and 5x hammerheads, on the other hand, a mere 400-500 dps tank is nothing special, but the damage is well worth it, in my opinion.

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Originally by: Trojanman190

---

I hadn't even thought of the stuff about how passive tanks hurt the minmatar battleships, extremely good points by Siddy and Veryez. I was 'raised' (ie, grew out of noobdom) on the idea of dual rep setups ruling the battlefield, and they are TONS of fun to fly, when I rarely get to fly them... but you are right. Repairing for 800 defense per second is pretty useless against two opponents and will completely burn out in 2 - 3 minutes anyways regardless of whether or not my guns take cap... an hp tank would still be standing. =( Sad but completely completely true.

However I do not agree that ANYTHING should be nerfed anymore. CCP needs to break the habit of nerfing things and instead needs to start boosting for balance.

---

Originally by: Maeltstome

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Originally by: Selia Rain

---

Try the classic gang setup with a shield tank and 3x gyro+800mm AC. It's classic because it's rarely used anymore, not because it's crap.

With a shield tank you:
Can fit 3x gyros easy.
Can fit siege launchers with a fitting mod.
Can fit falloff rigs without worrying overmuch about pg use.

Dps is over 1k with siege and 5x hammerheads, on the other hand, a mere 400-500 dps tank is nothing special, but the damage is well worth it, in my opinion.

---

Your EFT argument is good until you get into a fight with no tackle gear or speed mods. GL killing a target in a close range BS without a web/mwd.

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Originally by: Gavin Darklighter

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Originally by: Maeltstome

---

Originally by: Selia Rain

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Try the classic gang setup with a shield tank and 3x gyro+800mm AC. It's classic because it's rarely used anymore, not because it's crap.

With a shield tank you:
Can fit 3x gyros easy.
Can fit siege launchers with a fitting mod.
Can fit falloff rigs without worrying overmuch about pg use.

Dps is over 1k with siege and 5x hammerheads, on the other hand, a mere 400-500 dps tank is nothing special, but the damage is well worth it, in my opinion.

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Your EFT argument is good until you get into a fight with no tackle gear or speed mods. GL killing a target in a close range BS without a web/mwd.

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Even worse is when you realize a megathron can hit the same 1k dps with a similar dps tank but with twice the effective HP while hacing the MWD/Web/Scram that tempest lacks.

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Originally by: Gavin Darklighter

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Originally by: Trojanman190

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..stuff i sed...

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I dunno, I like the idea of nerfing plates and extenders. The other option would be boosting active tanking which would make killing targets solo that much harder and drive people into larger and larger gangs.

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Originally by: Blind Jhon

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Edited by: Blind Jhon on 23/06/2008 19:08:15

trojan i'm starting fall in love whit you... every post you do i have one of mine adsurd ideas (for your all joy )

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Originally by: Blind Jhon

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and if a new module be introduced?

...new module stuff...

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Originally by: Jalif

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Just give us a boost.... I think we layed down enough "proof" for balancing this out.
/me gettin Insane.

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